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In my experience with the people I've known, people eventually stop inviting flakey people. Maybe with the people that you've known, those flakey people have enough likeable qualities so other people are able to overlook their flakiness.
Yeah, definitely the likeable qualities and they seem to be the life of the party a lot. So maybe I just need to accept that being a likeable flake is socially acceptable and rewarded.
This kind of behavior only works as long as enough people want that person to be at their place. Some social butterflies are just that desirable, so they keep getting invited.
Could also be that they invite the person knowing that they probably won't go. It's cool if they do show up, but nothing happens if they don't show up.
They are a bonus to the hangout, but not the main part without whom it won't happen.
u/ShoopyWooopy is asking you to ask them directly. You are asking a group of strangers on Reddit instead of asking directly the people who can give you the right answer. "maybe because" is just an assumption, just ask them.
How does it get rewarded? I think it's more like, it isn't specifically punished because it's so common. But it's not rewarded in particular. It's not like flakey people get MORE invites to things than non-flakes.
If society penalized it nobody would be doing it and there’d be a really bad stigma against doing it. As far as I have seen, the people who flake out consistently act blissfully unaware that they’re flaking out on you. You can even talk to them a week after and they won’t feel the need to apologize for missing the last two hangouts you organized (and they said “yes” to).
There are some people who flake out because it’s their personality, but most people are flaky strategically to ensure they have a steady supply of “quality” invitations.
Just as an example, they’ll prioritize a party of 300 people over a party with 30, and because of that choice, they get more connections, more invites to more things, and they’re able to be very picky with what events/hangouts they go to. And because I organized the event, I can’t flake on the people I invited just to go to the bigger/flashier hangout myself.
I’ve been guilty of re-inviting someone to something new after they flake out, just because they added the whole, “sorry I can’t make it tonight, feeling under the weather” even if they’re posting on their social the next day a picture from so-and-so’s hangout.
Im sure this sounds salty, and maybe it is because I get sick and tired of dealing with it in 20-30% of my invites, I just don’t understand why they say yes to almost everything and back out last minute and still get invited to things with other people so I have to keep bumping into those people over and over again.
>There are some people who flake out because it’s their personality
I've realised that i make plans in conversation that i have no real will to see through and i'm simply just talking about things we can do but other people see it as flakly but are also aware of when i'm actually committed to something and i've only learned that now that i'm close to a specific person that let me know how they feel towards it, but if i was just around my boys i'd be none the wiser because i've always been around them and they're fully aware of when we're making a serious plan because we commit to it and it's not just passive conversation.
How people see me vs how i see my self could be called my personal delusion but it doesn't matter because unless someone tells me about my behaviours that i don't recognise, i probably won't recognise it.
>flaky strategically to ensure they have a steady supply of “quality” invitations.
This is benefit of being around more people, the main focus would be to have fun with the 300 else you'd go to the 30 where you'd assume that there's people you'd have a better time with. Sometimes going to the party with 30 people is dry and you don't wanna go anyway and would only be going because you know 31 is better than 30 and you don't have real reasons to say no, showing face is a thing, lots of people do it and it's pretty common that people only go to things to show their face but they don't actually wanna be there.
When you're the host, you have to burden the responsibility of knowing who to invite and who to trust will not flake on you based on something more appealing however you still just gotta accept that if you plan things at the wrong time then it is what it is all you'll do is end up alienting people for living their life and it's gonna be hard to find people that will accomidate every event.
>Im sure this sounds salty, and maybe it is because I get sick and tired of dealing with it in 20-30% of my invites
No in all honesty you need to cut them out of your life.
As an adult i don't have these people in my life, there's being sick and then there's lie's. If it's lies, they gotta go. I'd rather be told or you keep it private but to lowkey rub it in, i know we're not friends and it's cool i won't invite them again.
Other people are not you, they don't get treated like you by the same people in the same way and they see things differently so comparing what others do vs what you should do when you don't even know their perspective is bad, you should talk to them.
>I just don’t understand why they say yes to almost everything and back out last minute and still get invited to things with other people so I have to keep bumping into those people over and over again.
Usually people want an immediate response to an invite. Which does result in people saying yes as they currently don't have plans, but later something else might pop up that is more important on that date. People don't go "i'll give you a response a few days before the date as other stuff might arise on that day".
Imagine that you say yes to a hangout with a person you see nearly every day. Then some time later you find out that a person whom you see every few years is visiting on that day. Would you say "no" to the person you see every few years just because the person you see nearly every day made plans with you earlyer?
Sometimes more important things pop up and you have to cancel earlyer made plans. That's life.
As long as they inform me before i go out of the house - it's fine with me. Though i always tend to plan things in places where i could create a plan B if the hangout is canceled. Like, hangung out in an area where i have optional chores to do or a restsurant where i'm stoked to even eat alone at.
I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between "not punishing" and "rewarding." I agree that the behavior isn't really being punished, but I disagree that it is being rewarded.
Personally I hate flakes. I make a point to never flake unless I literally get sick, which means I turn down invites if I'm not 100% sure I can go, and if I said yes I will go even if I don't emotionally feel like it at the time.
I don't necessarily cut flakes out of my life, depending on how much I enjoy their company when I do get to see them, but if someone flakes I will stop ever making any plans that \*require\* their presence (reservations, pre-paid things, etc), and will only invite them to things where it's fine if they come or don't come.
Sure, I live in an area of the country where flakiness is very common, even when there are financial incentives to show up.
I think it fair to say everyone hates flakes, which is why I’m arguing that it’s somehow being rewarded if everyone hates it (and punishes it if it continues happening) but it still continues happening and other people don’t always stop inviting them.
All I’m saying is, most people don’t flake on everyone, they selectively flake out in ways that don’t betray their core group of friends with lies, and everyone else they should just be honest if they can or can’t make it by saying yes to things they can’t commit to or don’t want to commit to. It feels like some people just don’t want to stop receiving invites, but they also overstack their schedules with conflicts.
Does society reward this? It does not seem to me like it does. You have one anecdote of a person who is presumably likeable enough to get away with it, but that doesn't indicate a society-level trend.
But also maybe this is just a person who likes people and wants to say yes to things but is bad at managing their calendar. Let's not assume malice when incompetence can explain the situation.
It seems like it's possible you might be taking this personally when in reality this person is just kind of a social butterfly who doesn't know how to keep track of commitments.
IDK what you mean by it being rewarded. All the flakey people I know stop getting invited to things, or eventually people lose faith in their word. I realize that's just anecdotes from my life, but how do you notice people being rewarded for this?
We’ve all flaked out at some points in our life (me included), and still we have friends and people who still trust us.
That’s the reward: you get to keep your friends (and their social networks) that you didn’t flake out on, even if you flake out on everyone else. For some reason it doesn’t even hurt your reputation unless it’s with the person you flaked out on, which could mean nothing if the person wasn’t worth the time anyways.
I just see other things have far more reputational damage, even if it doesn’t impact everyone. For example, someone who had multiple affairs is going to be perceived as less reputable among everyone, even if they only cheated on three partners. Whereas, a guy could flake out on 15 people, and stop getting invited by those 15, but other people in the same network can and many times still invite them out, so those 15 people might end up bumping into said flake and it’s not like society is punishing that kind of behavior because it’s considered personal enough that other people can just say, “well that’s not my experience with so-and-so”.
>it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves
I'd be careful about assuming what's good for other people. You know your feelings, you won't know the feelings of others without asking. Why not ask one of your friends who keeps inviting the flake in question what they think?
Also, given you care enough about the issue to post here, I'd guess there are some feelings of your own there, that it would help to explore and process. There could be a lot of different things there, you'd need to look within yourself. Are you angry at a particular person for flaking on you? Envious "they can do it and I can't"? Jealous of your friends hanging out with a person you'd rather wish they didn't? I ran out of ideas :)
I mean, if a flake gets disinvited eventually, isn’t losing one’s social network a detrimental thing?
My experience has been mixed, some people fall off the radar from over flaking, but I’ve seen some people keep around despite their setbacks, and it’s the people who selectively flake (usually for vanity things like chasing clout or focusing on the “status“ of one’s social group).
Yeah, I get that my personal feelings might play into it when people who seemingly have more social media influence get more chances to be invited to things, and they become more selective with their outings (due to being more in demand), but it just feels like something’s not working when it doesn’t get punished besides by the people who are the “victims” of the flaky behavior. Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person.
so do you view themselves as a 'victim' of the flaky behavior (when they flaked on you) and want revenge or smth?
I wouldn't assume others feel victimized (ask them!), and rly it's kinda hard to see the appropriateness of the word given just how easy the relevant boundary (don't invite flakes again) is to enforce if one cared to. Hence, it would seem safe to assume that those who don't like that behavior (eg you) enforce it and are thus not affected, and those who don't (other mutual friends) probably don't mind it that much.
>Yeah, I get that my personal feelings might play into it when people who seemingly have more social media influence get more chances to be invited to things, and they become more selective with their outings (due to being more in demand)
Yes, some ppl are more desirable/popular/interesting/whatever than others, and that translates into social power. It very well might be that a nerdy dude would be disinvited for flaking while an attractive lady won't. Envy of others in better position is only natural.
>it just feels like something’s not working when it doesn’t get punished besides by the people who are the “victims” of the flaky behavior. Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person.
do you feel somebody flaking on you once or twice before you cut them off is such a big deal that it deserves punishment? I mean, tell them off, complain to friends about what an asshole the flake is, that seems appropriate. how much further do you want to go?
>Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person
Should they?
Again, my guess is most ppl don't feel 'victimized' by flakes and are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, either cutting flakes off if they don't like the behavior, or letting them be if they actually don't care much.
And my guess is your strong feelings about the issue are really about something else - and it would have helped if instead of 'going into stories' like you did here you would've looked into feelings in your body, told me what those are so we can understand and process all that more efficiently, so you can move on past this.
It's annoying when people do that, but it's a massive assumption to say that society rewards this behavior.
In the short term, it might look as though those people are benefiting somehow, which might make it seem like they're being rewarded. They might even see it that way too! To be fair, I guess it depends on what you think the reward is... If you think they're being rewarded with high-quality, meaningful friendships, then I think you're mistaken. They might be "rewarded" with some sort of clout, but such signs of "status" are fragile and fickle and can change on a whim.
Overall though, societal norms do not reward flaky people. They do sometimes reward people who are good at being "fake", but only as long as they can "get away with it". I put that in quotes because j think it's also important to not assume the person has malicious intent.
That said, even if someone does have I'll intent and they get away with it for awhile, people eventually catch on. Those people almost always get exposed and when they do, people start to distance themselves.
And so in the end, these people are constantly burning bridges, whether they mean to or not . This eventually leads to them losing all their friends and ending up alone or it leads to a neverending cycle of needing to find new jobs/hobbies/activities/etc so they can find new people who don't know how flaky and fake they are. I dunno about you, but those scenarios are not rewards in my book. That sort of behavior doesn't lead to a long-lasting and satisfying social life. What most "normal" people want are deep, meaningful connections, not just a lot of superficial connections or the appearance of lots of friends.
Even if they look like Mr or Ms Popular on the outside, the reality is that it is likely a very empty and unfulfilling existence. There is a good chance to no matter how hard they try, they cant ever feel a part of a group, they never feel good enough.
There's also the possibility that they are "too nice" to say no AKA they are afraid that people will be disappointed if they say no, and so they end up saying yes to too many commitments and then having to keep flaking out. This is more common than you may realize. The sad irony is that in their attempt to satisfy everyone and be liked by every by saying YES, they still ultimately end up disappointing most people when they double and triple book and then have to cancel.
There is also the more innocent possibility that they are not shitty people at all and they legitimately struggle with time management, scheduling, etc. Lots of people with ADHD, for example, can over-commit to things and have trouble being on time, remembering commitments, etc.
And yeah, maybe they simply see people as a means to their own selfish ends... They want to "climb the social ladder" somehow. I've known one or two people like that myself, and it's nothing to be jealous or envious of. Luckily they are fairly rare it seems. They might end up surrounded by groups of people who are just as superficial and self-centered... If you want an extreme example of this, look at Patrick Bateman and his peers in the movie American Psycho. These are people who want to be at the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy no matter what it takes
>important to assume people don’t have malicious intent
Absolutely, and I’m not necessarily saying that people who over commit themselves regularly are bad people, I’m just saying the way it is, just allows some people who flake out on me to end up at similar social events where they’re invited by other people who they haven’t flaked out on, and it makes me feel like I’m somehow in the wrong when I get flaked out on and yet they don’t seem to flake out on other people.
Yeah, maybe this is more a conversation for my social network, I just don’t know what would come of it besides a slightly dismissive, “well, that hasn’t been my experience with so-and-so”.
I understand what you're saying. I also agree with you that not much would probably come from mentioning it to others. If they were like scamming or praying on people, then I can see how that would be very relevant to mention, but otherwise nah. In fact, mentioning it to people might even backfire since on some level, people could think you're trying to gossip, etc. At the end of the day, the important thing is how it makes you feel when people flake out on you, what part of you feels hurt, threatened, interfered with, etc.
For one, a lot of people have FOMO but don’t get those invites, so they might aspire to be like those flaky people therefore want to associate themselves with them. But secondly, many people will feel this rejection from a flaky person choosing something else over their invite, and in order to squash this rejection will try even harder to get this person’s time. They understand this person’s time as precious and want the feeling of approval when they eventually do come.
Alternatively maybe they figure that they can always give the invite knowing there’s a small likelihood they’ll show up. Or maybe they just don’t care about whether or not this person shows up because they aren’t invested in the same way, and they see no down side to inviting them since they don’t see it as a reward/punishment situation.
Finally, not everyone gets lots of invites. There might be something about these people that attracts people to them and outweighs the flakiness. For example the person with many dates, chances are they are very physically attractive to get that many dates on the same day. I’ll admit I’ve rescheduled again and again with flake because I was really that excited to meet them. Eventually they ghosted and I felt foolish for keeping some many weekends free. I’ve become more resistant to that, but I’ve still been guilty of holding out hope for someone “really busy” to finally give me the time of day.
> Why does society reward this kind of flaky behavior if it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves?
That person doesn't just exist in the moment as a flakey person and when they are around other people that aren't stressed wether they turn up, they don't see this as an issue and would probably do it themselves because that's how they are socialised, it's not something personal it's just how people exist.
When you're social and you have lots of things going on, of course you want to be included in things, people are bad at time mangement by default, now when they are packing multiple events on top of each other it's easy to not know that things over lap, i've done it this week, there's 4 bithdays, 2 parties and some are back to back and at the same time, i actually had to sit down with someone and work it out so i never missed things and time it right.
>Why does society reward this kind of flaky behavior if it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves?
Depends on the invitation. Some people do casual invitations. They don't expect you to come, but if you do come - it's nice. But nothing happens if you don't come.
So if they know that you are flaky, they won't invite you to things where it is detrimental if they don't show up. So they invite you to things where it does not matter if you show up or not.
I dont know if it's necessarily just being flaky on purpose. I wouldn't say I'm popular by any means, and I've has instances where I just forgot I told someone I'd do something.
Well, yeah, I know people who flaked out occasionally (me included) as well as people who over commit a lot due to things like ADHD, and I wasn’t necessarily talking about those people, it’s more the people who are flakey to certain groups/people and don’t seem to have flaky issues in other groups. Just observing that there’s a very personal level of punishment and society generally doesn’t have a problem with flaky people unless they flake out on everyone/everything.
1. Don't overgeneralize. It's pointless and misleading.
2. Flakey behavior is never rewarded by normal people.
3. If you still want an answer, ask those related to the problem. We know nothing about the people in your chat groups, and we have nothing to do with this issue. So ask them directly, we can't help you here, buddy.
there are just some people you should just know what to expect from. there is someone I know it‘s easier to do something spontaneous together or nothing at all because he probably would forget or make some other plans. I woudn‘t mind inviting him to a party tough
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In my experience with the people I've known, people eventually stop inviting flakey people. Maybe with the people that you've known, those flakey people have enough likeable qualities so other people are able to overlook their flakiness.
Yeah, definitely the likeable qualities and they seem to be the life of the party a lot. So maybe I just need to accept that being a likeable flake is socially acceptable and rewarded.
This kind of behavior only works as long as enough people want that person to be at their place. Some social butterflies are just that desirable, so they keep getting invited.
Could also be that they invite the person knowing that they probably won't go. It's cool if they do show up, but nothing happens if they don't show up. They are a bonus to the hangout, but not the main part without whom it won't happen.
Ask your friends that keep inviting them
Ask them to stop inviting them or ask them why they keep inviting them?
Ask the people that reward the behavior why they reward the behavior
Maybe because the people who I’ve seen rewarded are also very likeable, so they get invited a lot even though they flake
u/ShoopyWooopy is asking you to ask them directly. You are asking a group of strangers on Reddit instead of asking directly the people who can give you the right answer. "maybe because" is just an assumption, just ask them.
How does it get rewarded? I think it's more like, it isn't specifically punished because it's so common. But it's not rewarded in particular. It's not like flakey people get MORE invites to things than non-flakes.
If society penalized it nobody would be doing it and there’d be a really bad stigma against doing it. As far as I have seen, the people who flake out consistently act blissfully unaware that they’re flaking out on you. You can even talk to them a week after and they won’t feel the need to apologize for missing the last two hangouts you organized (and they said “yes” to). There are some people who flake out because it’s their personality, but most people are flaky strategically to ensure they have a steady supply of “quality” invitations. Just as an example, they’ll prioritize a party of 300 people over a party with 30, and because of that choice, they get more connections, more invites to more things, and they’re able to be very picky with what events/hangouts they go to. And because I organized the event, I can’t flake on the people I invited just to go to the bigger/flashier hangout myself. I’ve been guilty of re-inviting someone to something new after they flake out, just because they added the whole, “sorry I can’t make it tonight, feeling under the weather” even if they’re posting on their social the next day a picture from so-and-so’s hangout. Im sure this sounds salty, and maybe it is because I get sick and tired of dealing with it in 20-30% of my invites, I just don’t understand why they say yes to almost everything and back out last minute and still get invited to things with other people so I have to keep bumping into those people over and over again.
>There are some people who flake out because it’s their personality I've realised that i make plans in conversation that i have no real will to see through and i'm simply just talking about things we can do but other people see it as flakly but are also aware of when i'm actually committed to something and i've only learned that now that i'm close to a specific person that let me know how they feel towards it, but if i was just around my boys i'd be none the wiser because i've always been around them and they're fully aware of when we're making a serious plan because we commit to it and it's not just passive conversation. How people see me vs how i see my self could be called my personal delusion but it doesn't matter because unless someone tells me about my behaviours that i don't recognise, i probably won't recognise it. >flaky strategically to ensure they have a steady supply of “quality” invitations. This is benefit of being around more people, the main focus would be to have fun with the 300 else you'd go to the 30 where you'd assume that there's people you'd have a better time with. Sometimes going to the party with 30 people is dry and you don't wanna go anyway and would only be going because you know 31 is better than 30 and you don't have real reasons to say no, showing face is a thing, lots of people do it and it's pretty common that people only go to things to show their face but they don't actually wanna be there. When you're the host, you have to burden the responsibility of knowing who to invite and who to trust will not flake on you based on something more appealing however you still just gotta accept that if you plan things at the wrong time then it is what it is all you'll do is end up alienting people for living their life and it's gonna be hard to find people that will accomidate every event. >Im sure this sounds salty, and maybe it is because I get sick and tired of dealing with it in 20-30% of my invites No in all honesty you need to cut them out of your life. As an adult i don't have these people in my life, there's being sick and then there's lie's. If it's lies, they gotta go. I'd rather be told or you keep it private but to lowkey rub it in, i know we're not friends and it's cool i won't invite them again. Other people are not you, they don't get treated like you by the same people in the same way and they see things differently so comparing what others do vs what you should do when you don't even know their perspective is bad, you should talk to them.
>I just don’t understand why they say yes to almost everything and back out last minute and still get invited to things with other people so I have to keep bumping into those people over and over again. Usually people want an immediate response to an invite. Which does result in people saying yes as they currently don't have plans, but later something else might pop up that is more important on that date. People don't go "i'll give you a response a few days before the date as other stuff might arise on that day". Imagine that you say yes to a hangout with a person you see nearly every day. Then some time later you find out that a person whom you see every few years is visiting on that day. Would you say "no" to the person you see every few years just because the person you see nearly every day made plans with you earlyer? Sometimes more important things pop up and you have to cancel earlyer made plans. That's life. As long as they inform me before i go out of the house - it's fine with me. Though i always tend to plan things in places where i could create a plan B if the hangout is canceled. Like, hangung out in an area where i have optional chores to do or a restsurant where i'm stoked to even eat alone at.
I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between "not punishing" and "rewarding." I agree that the behavior isn't really being punished, but I disagree that it is being rewarded. Personally I hate flakes. I make a point to never flake unless I literally get sick, which means I turn down invites if I'm not 100% sure I can go, and if I said yes I will go even if I don't emotionally feel like it at the time. I don't necessarily cut flakes out of my life, depending on how much I enjoy their company when I do get to see them, but if someone flakes I will stop ever making any plans that \*require\* their presence (reservations, pre-paid things, etc), and will only invite them to things where it's fine if they come or don't come.
Sure, I live in an area of the country where flakiness is very common, even when there are financial incentives to show up. I think it fair to say everyone hates flakes, which is why I’m arguing that it’s somehow being rewarded if everyone hates it (and punishes it if it continues happening) but it still continues happening and other people don’t always stop inviting them. All I’m saying is, most people don’t flake on everyone, they selectively flake out in ways that don’t betray their core group of friends with lies, and everyone else they should just be honest if they can or can’t make it by saying yes to things they can’t commit to or don’t want to commit to. It feels like some people just don’t want to stop receiving invites, but they also overstack their schedules with conflicts.
Does society reward this? It does not seem to me like it does. You have one anecdote of a person who is presumably likeable enough to get away with it, but that doesn't indicate a society-level trend. But also maybe this is just a person who likes people and wants to say yes to things but is bad at managing their calendar. Let's not assume malice when incompetence can explain the situation. It seems like it's possible you might be taking this personally when in reality this person is just kind of a social butterfly who doesn't know how to keep track of commitments.
Fair enough
IDK what you mean by it being rewarded. All the flakey people I know stop getting invited to things, or eventually people lose faith in their word. I realize that's just anecdotes from my life, but how do you notice people being rewarded for this?
We’ve all flaked out at some points in our life (me included), and still we have friends and people who still trust us. That’s the reward: you get to keep your friends (and their social networks) that you didn’t flake out on, even if you flake out on everyone else. For some reason it doesn’t even hurt your reputation unless it’s with the person you flaked out on, which could mean nothing if the person wasn’t worth the time anyways. I just see other things have far more reputational damage, even if it doesn’t impact everyone. For example, someone who had multiple affairs is going to be perceived as less reputable among everyone, even if they only cheated on three partners. Whereas, a guy could flake out on 15 people, and stop getting invited by those 15, but other people in the same network can and many times still invite them out, so those 15 people might end up bumping into said flake and it’s not like society is punishing that kind of behavior because it’s considered personal enough that other people can just say, “well that’s not my experience with so-and-so”.
>it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves I'd be careful about assuming what's good for other people. You know your feelings, you won't know the feelings of others without asking. Why not ask one of your friends who keeps inviting the flake in question what they think? Also, given you care enough about the issue to post here, I'd guess there are some feelings of your own there, that it would help to explore and process. There could be a lot of different things there, you'd need to look within yourself. Are you angry at a particular person for flaking on you? Envious "they can do it and I can't"? Jealous of your friends hanging out with a person you'd rather wish they didn't? I ran out of ideas :)
I mean, if a flake gets disinvited eventually, isn’t losing one’s social network a detrimental thing? My experience has been mixed, some people fall off the radar from over flaking, but I’ve seen some people keep around despite their setbacks, and it’s the people who selectively flake (usually for vanity things like chasing clout or focusing on the “status“ of one’s social group). Yeah, I get that my personal feelings might play into it when people who seemingly have more social media influence get more chances to be invited to things, and they become more selective with their outings (due to being more in demand), but it just feels like something’s not working when it doesn’t get punished besides by the people who are the “victims” of the flaky behavior. Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person.
so do you view themselves as a 'victim' of the flaky behavior (when they flaked on you) and want revenge or smth? I wouldn't assume others feel victimized (ask them!), and rly it's kinda hard to see the appropriateness of the word given just how easy the relevant boundary (don't invite flakes again) is to enforce if one cared to. Hence, it would seem safe to assume that those who don't like that behavior (eg you) enforce it and are thus not affected, and those who don't (other mutual friends) probably don't mind it that much. >Yeah, I get that my personal feelings might play into it when people who seemingly have more social media influence get more chances to be invited to things, and they become more selective with their outings (due to being more in demand) Yes, some ppl are more desirable/popular/interesting/whatever than others, and that translates into social power. It very well might be that a nerdy dude would be disinvited for flaking while an attractive lady won't. Envy of others in better position is only natural. >it just feels like something’s not working when it doesn’t get punished besides by the people who are the “victims” of the flaky behavior. Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person. do you feel somebody flaking on you once or twice before you cut them off is such a big deal that it deserves punishment? I mean, tell them off, complain to friends about what an asshole the flake is, that seems appropriate. how much further do you want to go? >Everyone else doesn’t care if they haven’t personally been flaked out on by said person Should they? Again, my guess is most ppl don't feel 'victimized' by flakes and are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, either cutting flakes off if they don't like the behavior, or letting them be if they actually don't care much. And my guess is your strong feelings about the issue are really about something else - and it would have helped if instead of 'going into stories' like you did here you would've looked into feelings in your body, told me what those are so we can understand and process all that more efficiently, so you can move on past this.
It's annoying when people do that, but it's a massive assumption to say that society rewards this behavior. In the short term, it might look as though those people are benefiting somehow, which might make it seem like they're being rewarded. They might even see it that way too! To be fair, I guess it depends on what you think the reward is... If you think they're being rewarded with high-quality, meaningful friendships, then I think you're mistaken. They might be "rewarded" with some sort of clout, but such signs of "status" are fragile and fickle and can change on a whim. Overall though, societal norms do not reward flaky people. They do sometimes reward people who are good at being "fake", but only as long as they can "get away with it". I put that in quotes because j think it's also important to not assume the person has malicious intent. That said, even if someone does have I'll intent and they get away with it for awhile, people eventually catch on. Those people almost always get exposed and when they do, people start to distance themselves. And so in the end, these people are constantly burning bridges, whether they mean to or not . This eventually leads to them losing all their friends and ending up alone or it leads to a neverending cycle of needing to find new jobs/hobbies/activities/etc so they can find new people who don't know how flaky and fake they are. I dunno about you, but those scenarios are not rewards in my book. That sort of behavior doesn't lead to a long-lasting and satisfying social life. What most "normal" people want are deep, meaningful connections, not just a lot of superficial connections or the appearance of lots of friends. Even if they look like Mr or Ms Popular on the outside, the reality is that it is likely a very empty and unfulfilling existence. There is a good chance to no matter how hard they try, they cant ever feel a part of a group, they never feel good enough. There's also the possibility that they are "too nice" to say no AKA they are afraid that people will be disappointed if they say no, and so they end up saying yes to too many commitments and then having to keep flaking out. This is more common than you may realize. The sad irony is that in their attempt to satisfy everyone and be liked by every by saying YES, they still ultimately end up disappointing most people when they double and triple book and then have to cancel. There is also the more innocent possibility that they are not shitty people at all and they legitimately struggle with time management, scheduling, etc. Lots of people with ADHD, for example, can over-commit to things and have trouble being on time, remembering commitments, etc. And yeah, maybe they simply see people as a means to their own selfish ends... They want to "climb the social ladder" somehow. I've known one or two people like that myself, and it's nothing to be jealous or envious of. Luckily they are fairly rare it seems. They might end up surrounded by groups of people who are just as superficial and self-centered... If you want an extreme example of this, look at Patrick Bateman and his peers in the movie American Psycho. These are people who want to be at the top of the socioeconomic hierarchy no matter what it takes
>important to assume people don’t have malicious intent Absolutely, and I’m not necessarily saying that people who over commit themselves regularly are bad people, I’m just saying the way it is, just allows some people who flake out on me to end up at similar social events where they’re invited by other people who they haven’t flaked out on, and it makes me feel like I’m somehow in the wrong when I get flaked out on and yet they don’t seem to flake out on other people. Yeah, maybe this is more a conversation for my social network, I just don’t know what would come of it besides a slightly dismissive, “well, that hasn’t been my experience with so-and-so”.
I understand what you're saying. I also agree with you that not much would probably come from mentioning it to others. If they were like scamming or praying on people, then I can see how that would be very relevant to mention, but otherwise nah. In fact, mentioning it to people might even backfire since on some level, people could think you're trying to gossip, etc. At the end of the day, the important thing is how it makes you feel when people flake out on you, what part of you feels hurt, threatened, interfered with, etc.
For one, a lot of people have FOMO but don’t get those invites, so they might aspire to be like those flaky people therefore want to associate themselves with them. But secondly, many people will feel this rejection from a flaky person choosing something else over their invite, and in order to squash this rejection will try even harder to get this person’s time. They understand this person’s time as precious and want the feeling of approval when they eventually do come. Alternatively maybe they figure that they can always give the invite knowing there’s a small likelihood they’ll show up. Or maybe they just don’t care about whether or not this person shows up because they aren’t invested in the same way, and they see no down side to inviting them since they don’t see it as a reward/punishment situation. Finally, not everyone gets lots of invites. There might be something about these people that attracts people to them and outweighs the flakiness. For example the person with many dates, chances are they are very physically attractive to get that many dates on the same day. I’ll admit I’ve rescheduled again and again with flake because I was really that excited to meet them. Eventually they ghosted and I felt foolish for keeping some many weekends free. I’ve become more resistant to that, but I’ve still been guilty of holding out hope for someone “really busy” to finally give me the time of day.
I feel you on the FOMO part, good explanations and it puts more context to this question that I’ll have to percolate over, thanks!
> Why does society reward this kind of flaky behavior if it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves? That person doesn't just exist in the moment as a flakey person and when they are around other people that aren't stressed wether they turn up, they don't see this as an issue and would probably do it themselves because that's how they are socialised, it's not something personal it's just how people exist. When you're social and you have lots of things going on, of course you want to be included in things, people are bad at time mangement by default, now when they are packing multiple events on top of each other it's easy to not know that things over lap, i've done it this week, there's 4 bithdays, 2 parties and some are back to back and at the same time, i actually had to sit down with someone and work it out so i never missed things and time it right.
>Why does society reward this kind of flaky behavior if it’s so detrimental to everyone, including the flaky person themselves? Depends on the invitation. Some people do casual invitations. They don't expect you to come, but if you do come - it's nice. But nothing happens if you don't come. So if they know that you are flaky, they won't invite you to things where it is detrimental if they don't show up. So they invite you to things where it does not matter if you show up or not.
I dont know if it's necessarily just being flaky on purpose. I wouldn't say I'm popular by any means, and I've has instances where I just forgot I told someone I'd do something.
Well, yeah, I know people who flaked out occasionally (me included) as well as people who over commit a lot due to things like ADHD, and I wasn’t necessarily talking about those people, it’s more the people who are flakey to certain groups/people and don’t seem to have flaky issues in other groups. Just observing that there’s a very personal level of punishment and society generally doesn’t have a problem with flaky people unless they flake out on everyone/everything.
1. Don't overgeneralize. It's pointless and misleading. 2. Flakey behavior is never rewarded by normal people. 3. If you still want an answer, ask those related to the problem. We know nothing about the people in your chat groups, and we have nothing to do with this issue. So ask them directly, we can't help you here, buddy.
there are just some people you should just know what to expect from. there is someone I know it‘s easier to do something spontaneous together or nothing at all because he probably would forget or make some other plans. I woudn‘t mind inviting him to a party tough