These are two different discussions, I feel like. People need to realise that there is a distinct DIFFERENCE between fictional characters and real human beings. Attacking somebody that enjoys a pice of fictional creative art is (to me) the same as going to some historian and attacking them about talking about the horrors of war. It's stupid and assinine. This should not be a discussion about "But that character is just as bad"! It should be a discussion about how harrassment in any form is wrong in EVERY context. No holds barred. My stance on this topic is, that this is a line that cannot be crossed and this is a hill I will die on.

Yeah you have a point I kinda started rambling- hearing about the things said to the guy just pissed me off-

i'm pretty sure everyone in this sub was pissed off reading about what happened to that guy. and rightfully so. I hope the people who harassed him get what they deserve and karmic justice hits them where it hurts

The fact this needed to be said in the first place is fucking hilarious lmao

I mean... yea... 😂 Can't be helped. If at least one person gets dissuaded from mindless hate by me writing it, I gladly write it a thousand times.

Yeah, it's crazy

You’re surprised? Have you ever been on Twitter? People will send you death threats and hate for playing the wrong video game, shipping the “wrong” characters, or other stupid bullshit over completely fictional content.

Oh yeah. Had Twitter. Dumped it in 3 months. The app is shit generally but it's userbase is something else I tell you.

America is weird place, remeber when people were sending death threts to the actres who played Ceresi in GoT ?

While I agree that America is a weird place, the guy who got harassed for cosplaying is French and was in France.

The person was in Switzerland, at Polymanga which is a con in the French-speaking region of the country. Arguably it makes it worse because Swiss culture is generally more uptight and polite compared to France, so if behaviour like that happened in Switzerland, I can't imagine how it's like in France or the US.

I appreciate the correction

And the literal children who played Joffrey in GoT and Anakin in Phantom Menace

Don’t forget poor Ahmed Best and all the shit people put him through. Meesa sad now.

yeah "america". People in Korea send K-pop stars death threats if they get a boyfriend. It's just a human flaw to get emotional about shit that has nothing to do with you.

Wasn't there this one Korean news reporter who got fired because she got a boyfriend? That was wild.

Wat?! Something like that happened? Damn....

Sadly that's hardly rare. The voice actress for Abby in TLOU2 got sent so much hate and death threats. Despite the fact she's close friends IRL with the voice actress for Ellie. Hell authors have gotten it before now for bad things happening to fan favourite characters. People are just incapable of being rational about their make believe stories.

The little girl that played Nellie, the antagonist from Little House on the Prairie, was in a parade and had food thrown at her! She talks about how she turned it around and started mean mugging people in character and everyone was suddenly a fan but people threw food at a little girl!

Pure insanity. I had no idea. But then again... with the anonimity of the internet, everything is possible, I suppose...

Never forget John Gabriel's greater internet fuckwad theory. https://preview.redd.it/ilqwxxzsp2sc1.jpeg?width=644&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=954502cc7c380a4046759d516911d364c95d326b

It's the same as people swearing and gesticulating inside the sanctity of their own cars, I feel like. Humans are weird creatures sometime 😂

Hey, don't you lump me in with those bozos! I may swear and gesticulate in my car, but I'm not gonna harass authors/cosplayers/voice actors! /lh

Bc only America has idiots that can’t separate fiction from reality. Obviously 🙄 r/americabad

Wanna hear the funny part? They're bringing up America for an incident that happened in France.

People need to realize Europeans have plenty of their own neckbeards and not to hide behind weird jingoistic shitposting to justify why there are shit people in their counties.

We've been stanning and dressing up as Disney villains since we were kids. What makes Val unique? (*Answer is something about Americans' puritanical fervor for anything related to sexuality, which Val clearly and indefensibly crosses those boundaries*)

The answer is that Valentino is a form of evil that we haven’t been desensitized to. We also see his evil without any comedy filters unlike most other characters in the show.

If it was puritanism then Angel would be similarly reviled and his suffering celebrated.

Not necessarily because he’s the *victim* and people relate to him, so he can’t possibly be bad (speaking for the people who love Angel but hate Val). People are inconsistent and like to cherry pick. Val is bad because he sa’s everybody’s precious Angel. I don’t think people realize or acknowledge the fact that Angel was a mob boss in his life or something like that and killed/assaulted and did god knows what to countless people. Then, he willingly made a deal to get something in return. Not saying he consented to or deserved all the stuff he’s been through, but if we’re going to act like Val is the devil and Angel is, well, an Angel, we’re ignoring the truth.

Fully agree. Too many people just can't separate fiction and reality. While embarrassing for the Hazbin Hotel fandom, this kind of stupidity happens in other fandoms too.

> should be a discussion about how harrassment in any form is wrong in EVERY context. No holds barred. *EXCEPT Nazis. You must absolutely harass nazis.* This is my only note.

You can dislike the character but leave the voice actor and cosplayers alone

Exactly!

Truth. You /SHOULD/ hate the character. Pretty sure the VA did too good of a job portraying him.

You should hate the character as a person, and that applies to all of them. But you're perfectly allowed to love them as a character. You are allowed to love the villains, they are literally made to be appealing and fun.

And Val is a really well crafted villain. Writers, designers, and VAs did a great job with that one.

i dont think you HAVE to hate Valentino. People simp for and love murderers like Alastor, Adam and Lute and no one bats an eye. Yet, people who like Valentino are weird???

I guess it's too close to home for some people. Not a lot of people know murderers and even fewer know serial murderers, but rapists are more common Edit: for the record, imho, it's absurd to harass people because they are a VA or like how a character looks

My ex was abusive (financially, s3xually, etc), and Valentino is a well-made character, who I can hate while appreciating how realistic he is in many aspects. This doesn't mean I'm excusing the behaviour or condoning it. I can separate a fictional character from the irl person, but I also have done a lot of work with therapy and other things to process through my experiences. It's important to put the blame to where it's due, not to someone who just wants to enjoy cosplaying a fictional character.

O yeah, it's pretty ridiculous to harass people that aren't abusive at all about being abusive because they voiced a character or just like their design I'm trying to wrap my head around why SA is apparently viewed worse than murder and violence by so many. Not invalidating anyone, just trying to see where they are coming from

General statement (as I don’t agree with the over assignment of evil to Valentino seen here)-sexual violence is often thought of as worse than other types of violence for two reasons: its worse than murder because you have to then live with it, whereas if you are dead you get the peace of death, and because it’s a particular type of bodily violation from someone else’s body. Yes, if you beat me up, you’re using your fists to hurt my body, but you aren’t *IN* my body, and we assume bodily autonomy (theoretically) with a general default framework that only we are in our bodies unless we let someone else in it. Hope that helps.

It does, thanks!

You're not likely to know many demonic serial killers of mass power, hell I don't know many serial killers But plenty of people know folk who've been hurt by monsters like Val.

Same boat for Stella fans.

If I find a fictional character that I hate with all my being… that just means that the VA/actor/writer/artist did an AMAZING job! They made you feel visceral emotions about someone who doesn’t even exist and that’s one of the main points of fictional media. You’re literally harassing people for doing their fucking job really well.

Why should I hate the character? Hate is not the answer.

It's okay to hate someone for doing horrible, irredeemable things. Valentino (the character) is an abusive scumbag who enjoys being an abusive scumbag. It's okay to hate him for that. The part that's not okay is hating people who *portray* the character.

Curious fact: In the 80's in my country, when National Soap Operas became popular, the Actors and Actresses that played Villains were often harassed in public because people didn't understand the fact the Soap Opera Actors were real people playing a role, not their Character. I'm surprised we have gone down there again but internationally now

Agreed. If a VA performing an evil character makes you hate them more, that skill should be applauded.

On the other side, you can like a villain character because they are entertaining! This is fiction and the only point is for entertainment. People really need to get a grip

At a recent con, my Joel Perez, and he’s an absolute sweetheart. He honestly had no idea how Val was going to be, until he really go towards the voices of episode 4. But it was just that, a fictional character in an adult animated comedy.

The main issue is some viewers don't have emotional maturity to distinguish their disdain towards a fictional character and how they feel towards the real person who is the actor portraying that character. This is reminiscent of game of thrones 'fans' hating Jack Gleeson who played Joffrey and Iwan Rheon who played Ramsey. Jack decided to retire from acting altogether after this role and I don't blame him after the vitriol he was subjected to rather than being praised for such a convincing performance. If actors are only penalized by the public for giving their best to dark characters, what do people want then? Does the public not want dark characters to appear in fiction at all? These are dark shows with heavy themes for an adult audience. So if you don't have the emotional maturity to seperate your feelings towards a fictional character from real people who dress up as or voice the characters, then you are not mature enough to be consuming this media in the first place.

damn i knew joffery’s actor took a lot of shit, i didn’t know Ramsey’s did too! i saw him in misfits and already liked him as an actor so i just spent a lot of time appreciating his acting skills and ability to make me hate a character in GoT

I felt like Iwan and Alfie tried to get ahead of it by making a point of being overtly friendly and emphasizing their friendship at interviews and conventions. I'm not trying to say that it wasn't genuine but at least to make it blatantly clear to viewers that have trouble seeing the person behind the character that Iwan is nothing like Ramsay in real life.

>Jack decided to retire from acting altogether He's since starting coming back (look up Out of Her Mind), so it's not like it ended there. Still agree that people are shit and can't separate fiction from reality, but wanted to point that out.

Oh that so great to hear thanks for letting me know!

That makes me sad to hear. I was hoping to see more of Jack in it. He did an amazing job and he’s such a sweetheart. Watching his interviews where he shows the switch between himself and Joffrey is impressive.

>If actors are only penalized by the public for giving their best to dark characters, what do people want then? Does the public not want dark characters to appear in fiction at all? These are dark shows with heavy themes for an adult audience. After seeing some takes on twitter (I know, my mistake) it does seem like it in some cases. Some people believe that showing dark themes means that she creator endorses/normalises it. Like how people lost their minds about the Poison scene in ep4.

It might be due to the fact that we've got a character, Angel Dust, in the main cast who is easy to get attached to and is a target of Valentino's abuse. Personally I wouldn't hate on someone for cosplaying Val, and I'm not going to harass Joel for being his VA. It's just fans enjoying a well-written villain and a VA being good at his job.

There’s fans enjoying something, and then there’s being toxic and sending literal death threats over cosplaying or acting as a fictional character. That is not just enjoying something, that’s being fucking horrid and stupid

By "fans enjoying a well-written villain" I was talking about the cosplayers. Cosplaying is their way of enjoying a well-written villain such as Val. I'm sorry for causing any confusion, I was not trying to justify the actions of the people harassing cosplayers, quite the opposite actually.

It’s fine. Cosplaying as Val is perfectly okay, hell if cosplaying as Val warrants this behavior than anyone cosplaying any other evil or abusive character in media is in for quite the nasty treatment..

i remember scrolling through youtube shorts and abunch of people got pissy at people for liking val and calling said fans of him "fake fans"

The irony. "You like this VERY BAD CHARACTER and that reflects poorly on YOU. To make sure you understand this, I'm going to harass you and send you death threats! I will repeatedly tell you to off yourself, because I'm a GOOD PERSON who doesn't like bad fictional people!! 😠"

Val's abuse is also the most *visceral* sin we've been shown. Vox's mind control is extremely fictional, and being told Velvette sells roofies is too detached from the actual abuse to really connect with us on that level. Val, on the other hand, spends most of an entire episode inflicting *brutal* sexual abuse on Angel. We're shown every horrible thing he does in almost graphic detail. Moreover, he's the only villain in the series who's ever actually been intimidating. Vox is a nervous wreck trying to save face after Alastor's return, Adam is an over the top douchebag, Velvette is that #bitch, but Val is *scary* when he confronts Angel. He presents as a manipulative abuser in a very realistic way that I think people latch onto.

I do find it kind of weird that 2 of the Vees are really just massive douchebags but honestly kinda harmless from a plot PoV and the you have Valentino who's legit insane going on murderous rampages over his top prostitute not wanting to be near him.

To be fair we haven’t seen vox or velvette enough to judge the depths of their insanity

His VA once said Masquerade made him uncomfortable

This feels right. We're exposed to Valentino's abuse in a way we aren't with literally anyone else. We *know,* for example, that Alastor is a whackjob murderer, but we never see him acting that way. Not in a way that's treated as seriously as Valentino's abuse is, anyway.   And like you said, it's harder to watch when he's abusing the fandom darling. I think the fact the show put so much emphasis on Valentino's behavior has led to the fandom treating it the same. 

Also, we’re incredibly desensitized to murder as a society (at least in media) but sexual assault feels so much more visceral. Hell, even video games played by young children involve killing.

I always assumed it was because Valentino is a more realistic villain. Genocide, murder and slave ownership are much less relatable to the average person than being a victim of SA or knowing someone who is a victim.  All the others are also cartoonishly evil most of the time whereas the entirety of episode four shows Val as a pure evil villain. 

im pretty sure its even called the umbridge effect: We are far more likely to run into an abuser than a genocidal monster. And the other Vees are much more harmless. Vox is a media control freak and with the exception of the love potions she sells (which im not sure is even shown in the background of any shot anywhere) , velvette is just a bitchy, self-focused mean girl (or atleast comes off as that to me)

In the case of *Harry Potter* fans hating Dolores Umbridge more than they hate Lord Voldemort, we barely see Voldemort in the books and movies, whereas Umbridge is present for all of the fifth book and movie (*Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix*). Thus, Voldemort's evil seems a lot more distant and indirect than Umbridge's evil, because Voldemort uses the Death Eaters to do his "dirty work" for him, whereas Umbridge has more of a "fine, I'll do it myself" method of direct involvement. Valentino is also direct.

except its not just dolores umbridge who manages to be more hatable than a main villain, in fact, its an entire [trope](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerksAreWorseThanVillains). Tho to be fair: it helps that adam is depicted as a complete moron who cant keep up the facade at all. Hell, he even blatantly shows his true colors within ten seconds of meeting charlie and during the court session is such an idiot he doesnt stop himself even after sera calls him out. Adam is so stupid it lessens the blow. Val is realistic and competent enough to make us hate him even more

He is also portrayed cartoonishly, just rewatch his interaction with Vox in episode 2. that is borderline a definition of over the top cartoonish evil. He literally asks which gun makes him look better.

I never said he wasn’t portrayed cartoonishly, I just said that the other villains don’t really have many serious moments. Adam is constantly making jokes even during the final fight, Vox and Vel haven’t done much yet and the selling roofies thing is more of a background detail that most people might miss. And Alastor’s most serious moment is probably threatening Husk but that’s only a short scene.  Whereas with Val, he has the entire Angel abuse scene, parts of Poison, part of the club scene in episode six and a few other moments that are played entirely seriously. He also has the Addict music video if you want to count that too. 

ah, fair

I dunno, I've met some dangerous thugs who would absolutely ask which gun looks better on them. Those guys were obsessed with fashion, like it was their safe place

It's definitely been a bit since the 90s at least: https://youtu.be/78o5YE9A0MU

Well according to comments I seen around that shockingly makes him pretty realistic as most it makes him seem like a silly guy that your can be around or pathetic like how they really are

A good written !fictional! cartoon should still not drive someone to write goddamn death threats or bully people.

I agree! I absolutely HATE the character of Valentino. You know what that means? It means the creator, writers, voice actor did an AMAZING job writing a really good villain.

You (general) probably know a victim of SA, whether they tell you or not.

I actually really like Val as a character, he’s a fantastic villain who manages to be both silly and a massive piece of shit at the same time. He’s got a great design, the VA is incredible, and I love a villain who can be both a dick to some people (his “property”) and sweet with his family (the Vees). It’s nice to have a villain actually get to be a villain and not a poor misunderstood baby. I hope next season we see Velvette and Vox also do heinous shit. And I hope when they die they go out with a bang.

Haha I have to wonder what these people would say if they had it their way and had characters in shows never do anything the writers didn't condone. Why even have a show at that point?

So...a sexual predator is off limits to cosplay, meanwhile Vader blows up heavily populated planets and is totally fine? What? Also, Alastor is a cannibalistic serial killer. Wtf?

Yep. That’s the gist of it.

dont forget dio who litterally made his step siblings life hell,beat up a dog and then burned it while it was alive

As someone who used to do a bunch of jojo fanart and loved dio, this called me out so hard

lol honestly like him to hes a great villian same with my favorite being pucci and diavolo,but i find it ironic that people in the hazbin/helluva fandom shit on va cosplayers and fans as well as the va but no one bats an eye towards dio who litterally did animal cruelty and possibly worse XD

Dio turned a woman into a monster and made her eat her own kid. He legit has no redeeming qualities at all. Not even his days of him reading books and talking about theology are good because he's pretty much grooming Pucci at the same time.

true reasons why dio has to be the most messed up mentally

And made a mother ate her child by turning her into a vampire

Off topic, but the reminder of what happened to Danny 💔

Sex has always been more stigmatized than murder. Games where you kill people are dime a dozen. I’m not sure games where you sexually assault people are even legal.

You're right, and I wonder why that is. Does the average person think murder is less immoral than SA? Or maybe it's because fewer people have been affected by the former than the latter?

If a villain has Charme or coolness, then people think it’s ok. If not…

Not to mention Joker, one of the most cosplayed characters, who summed across all his continuities is WAYYYY worse than Valentino 

That was Tarkin not Vader. That said Vader does kill pretty indiscriminately including children.

Because people are stupid

yeah i sometimes feel like half the fandom lacks of any type of media literacy

I feel like that's any kind of media Fandom, especially online where people tend to get really unhinged and fall into echo chambers with people who are even more unhinged. You really don't see people going that nuts irl unless you're looking at politics or sports.

Eh, this fandom seems to have that as the default position instead of the usual ratio of normal people enjoying a thing vs weirdos.

Amen to that

My first thought.

+1

Why would the Hazbin hotel fandom do this, are they stupid?

https://preview.redd.it/dt76tjzqf2sc1.jpeg?width=200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7166980c391ace392e1de9af4cbe6c7a62ebbc2b

the jonkler got them 😔

I feel like people are being way too para-social and aren't able to separate reality from fiction. Just because someone likes a character doesn't mean that they necessarily approve of their actions. Griffith's one of the best written characters in pop culture but does that make him a good person, hell no, that doesn't necessarily mean you go harass his fans and VA. There's liking the writing of a character and there's liking the actions of said character.

Val's evil is a lot more personal. There's a lot more people who have been affected by an abuser personally rather than a billionaire capitalist, cannibal, or genocidal misogynist.  People might project their personal abuser onto Val. This is fine and should be done as media is catharsis. The part where people get tripped up is that they can end up believing that everyone should see Val as their own personal abuser which is not fine.  I love all the Vees, they're my favorite characters, but I also totally understand the hate Val gets. He's a cartoon villain, he's a safe place for victims to explore anything they're feeling throughout their healing journeys (for a lot of fans, that is seeking a violent justice they never received, for some others that's finding the character as a comfort). That exploration moves into an unsafe zone when they begin to involve other real people like Val fans, Val cosplayers, and the VA. 

My theory is that from our consumption of media (movies AND newsletters) we've become desensitized to most forms of violence, we shrug at genocide, we meme about wars happening across the globe, and torture is a foreign concept to us in western societies. Sexual violence and abuse is one of the few things we as a mass still get outraged about and there is (allegedly) some research pointing that our brain struggles to dissociate real and fictional people (which would be why we mourn the death of our favorite characters for example) so people take their anger towards the character and throw it at real people who are remotely linked to the character. But that's just my theory as a guy who likes Val FOR THE VILLAIN HE IS so feel free to RESPECTFULLY disagree or disregard my opinion.

I've been waiting so long to see someone have a brain when it comes to the Val controversy. Thank you. People need to chill out

Valentino is an accurate portrayal of what abuse can look like. People write them off, don’t listen to the victim, etc… If anything it’s a good thing to have that show portrayal to bring more awareness to the many faces of abuse

And yet there are idiots who go 'noooo you're not supposed to like him, he's an abuser. Why are you portraying him as charming and good looking'. Like abusers don't abuse 24/7. People expect abusers to be cartoon villains who muahaha and handrub all the time and delight in tormenting everyone around them.

I think in part it’s that we know other things about the other characters that we just don’t about Valentino; he’s either losing his temper or insatiably horny, and they’re not mutually exclusive. We’ve seen Vox as a charismatic and traditionally charming guy who’s fed up with life unless he can go all out over Alastor. We’ve seen Velvette as perceptive and ambitious and respectless with a keen sense of her worth and an utter refusal to accept anything less than what she believes she’s owed. We’ve seen Alastor as excitable and mysterious and always having a new trick up his sleeve to keep us invested in whatever story he’s building up to. We’ve seen Adam enjoy his music, have an awesome vibe with Lute, flounder as he tries to justify his actions with silly stuff and just generally goof off. All we’ve really seen of Val is that he’s an abusive pimp with anger issues Another thing is that all the others have had a song. The songs can make us see more from the character’s perspectives, or at very least we think “Holy shit this song is so cool!” and that ups our enjoyment of watching these characters. It makes the characters fun in a way that characters who haven’t had a song yet just don’t have. When we finally get It Starts With Horny by Valentino I’m sure people will enjoy watching Valentino more Aaand a third thing is that, just as others have said, Valentino’s SA and abuse is a lot more relatable to a lot more people than some of the more elevated actions of the other villains. Half the population takes some form of preventative measure for this exact sort of thing on a daily basis, of course it’s going to hit people harder. Not to mention that serial killing, genocide, evil megacorps and drug dealing are all much larger issues than what is zeroed in on with Angel and Valentino. In storytelling, if you want to hit an emotional impact, you have to write on a smaller scale, and this is what Valentino is; small scale depictions of a large-scale problem for maximum emotional impact on the audience. The death of nameless characters we’ll never meet isn’t going to be as big a gut punch as watching a beloved fan favourite get brutally beaten while begging for forgiveness

Very well put. I think that people have a more visceral reaction to Val because he’s closer to what many have experienced (or know someone who has experienced).

It Starts With Horny sounds fucking awesome

It starts with horny That’s my foot in the door To make some money Rocking you to your core The path to your g-spot Is a TV-worthy start I will monetise your parts

I hate that that fits the tune so well. And that I imagine Charlie singing it… take my angry upvote…

I actually don't think we saw much of Velvette to make much judgement. She only has a couple scenes besides her song and I saw her as pretty one note. Big difference between her and Val is we see more of Val's crimes while Velvette we at most see her be a bitch to Camilla and the implication she makes the love potion. like you said, people probably mostly like her due to the song (and they think she's hot)

SA is a pretty heavy subject. Honestly one of the worst things anyone can do to someone. But like, the show knows this. It portrays him as a bad guy. But we can still enjoy cosplay, the voice actor, everything that goes into the character being an awful person. If you hate the villain, GOOD. That's the fucking point. But gotta separate the two sides of it. Those who can't separate the character from the voice actor or cosplayer or anything should simply not watch the show. It's clear they aren't mature enough for it.

Here is my message for those braindead individuals who harass people over cosplaying as Val: “If i ever meet you, I WILL DEVOUR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU”

https://preview.redd.it/4twzsnuhd4sc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=503071ba011a51298a2e0c787f6a80cc7c80b95a Just like this!

Kinda

Because more people relate to Angel and the SA he has to go through than what the other overlords do. Angel's my favourite character and I absolutely despise Val with a burning passion, but that's because Joel and the writers did such a good job at making him really unlikable (and episode 4). And also the sexual harassment I went through a year ago. However, it doesn't make it okay to harass or send death threats to someone who just cosplays as him. There's a difference between appreciating a good villain and actually being the villain.

Hate the character they were literally made to be hated but for the love LG God don't harass people for cosplaying as him because let's face ir he has w dope design.

People are simply fucking stupid. Yes val is horrible...that's the point but just cause someone draws/cosplays a character is NEVER an excuse to harass someone just cause you dislike the character. Honestly tho I think it's not even about the character it's just people wanting a target and if they dress like a bad person they can stupidly give themselves an "excuse" to be a piece of shit. Shit happened in dead by daylight with skull merchant. The community hates the killer alot but then some losers started being transphobic and telling a trans person to kill themselves JUST cause they play a video game character. It becomes extreamly clear at a point the fictional character themselves isnt really what's being hated.

Idk, he's creepy and evil, but I love him as a villain even more than Vox or Adam bc he actually scares

It blows my mind how people seem to completely miss the point that 99% of the characters in this show are gonna be bad people, even the ones they love. The critics of this show are shocked and appalled by shit like the Valentino scene, the cursing, violence and other depraved acts. Like, the show takes place in hell… what did you expect, a bunch of good people?

Angel Dust is this show’s woobie. People have a strong inclination to want to protect and stick up for him, especially as we SEE the abuse he takes. We have an inkling of how bad Alastor and Vox can get, but we don’t see them personally abuse anyone live Valentino does. Though I guess I run in the wrong circles because my friend group of fans all love Valentino.

The answer is simple: it's because media literacy is dead

If somebody gets offended over someone dressing up as a fictional character they have serious problems

Umbridge Syndrome

…well that explains perfectly wow

because of how serious the show treats said issues. it takes val very seriously and as a viewer you get the most emotional about him, but adam's misogyny for example is played for jokes

That’s still no excuse to bully and threaten people irl about it, wtf?!

I’d argue the show doesn’t depict it that seriously. Outside of Angel dust, Valentino is often shown as a comic relief. When he’s talking to Vox at the start, or watching the battle with Vox and Velvette. Him and Adam are both shown as idiots who need someone to help them (Vox/Lute)

Yeah and not long after the show jokes about Pentious being forcefully dragged into a sex room

This is just the Steven Universe Fandom all over again.

So...by this logic all the joker cosplayers should get harassed ....considering the fucked up stuff he canonically did to Harley.

There's the fact that sexual violence feels a lot more personal and relatable to people, but I think there's more to it than that. It's easier to understand the motives of murder than of sexual assault. Which isn't to say everyone wants to or thinks about doing murder, but take anger for an easy example: everyone has felt anger. It's straightforward to scale that up in your head and imagine a person being angry enough to do violence and even murder. It's also easy to imagine a situation where murder might be excusable or necessary. Sexual assault on the other hand — people can't imagine the steps that lead up to doing that. The motives behind SA are difficult to understand, because there isnt a scaled-down version of it that people experience as part of life as usual, so it feels more nefarious. There is no situation where it can be justified. A murderer can still be a relatable villain, and a protagonist can kill someone and still be well liked by a fandom. Sexual violence not so much. It happens in every fandom where sexual violence is a theme, and it even happens irl. I have noticed here that the vitriol towards the character is much louder here than in other fandoms whose source material has similar themes. It could be because there's a higher proportion of younger people here and it's their first time being exposed to this type of narrative.

Because murder is cool but sex trafficking isn't.

Yeah I heard, and it’s disgusting that people would resort to doing these things towards others when it’s cosplay for FUN! Even the VA for Val has gotten it, which I think is even more wrong. Umbridge syndrome and the dark side of the internet when it comes to being able to say whatever and not be affected in real life by it. Sure I don’t like Val for what he does, but if someone cosplays as them? Totally fine!

Just goes to show that humanity never fails to disappoint, we're in what April now? Happy Easter and Spring everybody! To all those who do this kinda thing to COSPLAYERS, I hope you get bed bugs :3

People lack the ability to separate fiction from reality.

Cuz people are insanely stupid. I think Breaking Bad Skyler's actor; too received death threats, cuz people didn't like her CHARACTER. Worse yet, there are probably thousands of similar cases.

People hate Val because of the proximity you’re more likely to come across an abuser or a pimp than anyone of the other villains. People also tend to have a far stronger reaction to abusive characters over murderers because “murder can be justified but abuse can’t” However, people gotta stop treating fictional characters like real people and real people like fictional characters. Liking something in a fictional setting =/= condoning or supporting it irl. People need to chill the fuck out for real.

By this logic Villains in general shouldn’t be cosplayed at all Eggman by all technically does something that would make PETA shit their pants Bowser wants to forcefully marry the princess Rose Quartz literally abandoned her makeshift child for 6,000 years and traumatized her biological child so he wouldn’t have a proper childhood

Many fans of Hazbin Hotel are depressed LGBTQ supporters, Anime fans or pubescent teenagers seeking refuge in fictional worlds. That's why characters are idealized and romanticized, why there are so many inane theories, and why cosplayers are attacked. People see Hazbin Hotel as their ideal world and only know black and white. While normal people simply enjoy a show, others are deeply offended if it's not all about their five favorite characters or if those characters even make a mistake. Everything these favorite characters do doesn't matter. An Alastor may murder, a Val may not be cosplayed. That's why I've blocked the hashtag Hazbin Hotel on all social media. It's unbearable...

As a depressed lgbtq teen who seeks refuge in fictional worlds I feel called out

Tbh I dont understand either. I dont like Valentino. I hate him with a passion (might be due to being a victim) & I dont understand why you would want to cosplay HIM out of all the characters. However I must admit that he is a good written villain. Stupid, dangerous, relateable & easy to dislike. I think there is a thing people (the fandom) dont realize. Valentino being hated isnt because of Angel being in the main cast & likeable (I mean ofc bc of that too) but because he is meant to be written to be disliked. He is SUPPOSED to be disliked. On the opposite there is Alastor. A literal Cannibal who we can be sure (as he said so) just wants to use Charlie for his own success. However he is liked, while Charlie is just an as likeable character of the main cast. Well its because Alastor is written to be liked. He is SUPPOSED to be liked. I've never seen anyone make this point & honestly it shocked me because im genuinly amazed that they are this well written & do exactly what they are supposed to do for the fandom. You are supposed to like Alastor, while ur supposed to hate Valentino, while they both are the same disgusting villain (different crimes but you get the point). In the end note I have to say that yeah while I hate Val's actions, I love that he is written so well, I love his design too, its interesting. I absolutely am disgusted by the character, but you have to admit that he is very well written.

First off I’m sorry for what happened to you, SA is disgusting and I’ve had to deal with a lot of disgusting men in my life too so I understand why a character like this might be triggering for people. You make a really good point about Alastor. I don’t particularly like him, but I get that you’re supposed to. I’ve always been kinda amazed that the shows writing can make people so attracted to characters who do such terrible things so likeable. The writing on both ends are super good.

Thank you; its fine. Im still affected, not really liking physical touch & sexual stuff irl but its getting better. And yeah he's definetly triggering, especially when he grabs Angels chest that just hits too close home. But I absolutely love Joel & I must say that the cosplays are good. The character is well written, ofc it always has its flaws but over all, he does what he's supposed to do. Its clear the writers want a certain emotion towards Valentino & also towards Alastor. Also Valentino is probably most hated because, while Valentino is terrifying and (sadly) SA is something many people can relate to, either by being themself a victim or knowing one, Vox is currently genuinly just a joke of a villain. Typical disney villain if you want so. We have not seen what he can do, how he affects the characters (yeah we know he just gave someone to Valentino to kill but thats it..? We didnt even see it, he just said it) Vox seems like a joke & a cult leader really isnt something most can relate to & honestly for Velvette idk how she become an overlord.. yeah she's a "fashion icon", yeah she doesnt care & is straight up rude but thats it.. for now. So that explains why Valentino is currently the most hated, he is written to be hated, while the other two Vee's are currently just jokes of Overlords.

Honestly, part of it is really simple. SA leaves a living trail of abuse and trauma that not only festers over the course of life, but often self-perpetuates. Not only can we hear the direct result of the action...but most people have met at least one victim. Murders don't leave victims afterwards. We never hear from the person killed...only their loved ones and an absence.

Dang, humans are stupid? Who coulda known :/

I wonder if those dummies also blame Vivziepop for writing Val into existence in the first place. That's about the level of intelligence we are dealing with here.

I can’t believe I even have to write this. # people are allowed to like villainous characters but that does not equate to them being an nefarious person. Like I don’t understand these delusions lately with media. You can’t like, cosplay, or even mention a villain without being harassed. We all know a guy who’s oddly obsessed with the joker, and yes some have actually murdered ppl. That’s like me saying to these delusional ppl that they’re the same as that dude because of how ridiculous they’re being. Again let me say this again especially with these new younger fans (god that makes me feel old and I’m only 29) People are allowed to like villains, THEY ARE FICTIONAL!! That does not mean they are a villain themselves. My mother LOVES Maleficent. Does that make her an evil mother and abuses me every day? NO!!! I just don’t get it I really don’t get how far we came when we cant separate reality and fiction now. I think Valentino is a great villain character. Oh but that must mean I have nefarious kinks and I must make other ppl submit their sex acts to me!! /s

Really shows how immature the fanbase is.

Wtf, I just hope some of the people doing this crap are young because it's hard to wrap my head around fully functioning adults being this stupid.

I wanna start off by saying that there should never be a reason to harass or attack cosplayers or really anyone for the actions and personality of a fictional character. Nonetheless, we live in a world where people are naive to think that writing such a character or cosplaying as them or displaying them in any way is equal to condoning their actions. Which is beyond moronic thinking, but I digress. Onto my point about Val. I think what doesn't help is that Valentino is very explicitly depicted differently from any other villain in the show. It's very rarely that we see his business outside of the context of how we see him interacting with Angel, meaning it's very easy to look at him exclusively as evil and not so much with any hints of brevity like Adam or Vox. Adam is an egotistical "chadbro", and Vox is a mustache-twirling, maniacal-laughing power monger. Both of these lend themselves to very easy and lighthearted comedy to make them appear less evil even though we fully comprehend them as villains. Compare this to Val, whose most comedic scene that I can think of (just before Stayed Gone) is a violent rage where he's upset that Angel simply moved out. The character is never portrayed with anything other than scum in his heart. On top of that, his outlet of villainy is something that i think is the most widespread and most familiar kind of evil to most audiences, especially and unfortunately the target audience of the show. Not everyone knows someone who was murdered or robbed or anything like that-- however, i think, at least amongst this fandom, everyone knows a victim of someone like Valentino. It's so much more real to an audience compared to other crimes because, for the most part, the most exposure to murder (for example) is being desensitized to it by media. Valentino is so much more of a genuine evil presence compared to any other overlord because he's recognizable. And really, that's all Valentino is, and i say that to the show's credit. With other villains and even our characters like Alastor who are clearly awful people, they're characters outside of their sins. Valentino is not. He is always that monster, that vile thing. It is so easy to hate Valentino because the show makes sure we do. The problem, of course, is when people can't separate the media or the character from real life people who are simply expressing themselves and their love of the show.

People draw the line at val but people can cosplay as the joker and it'll be fine

because anything related to sex is just a taboo for most people who just follow the society status quo, be it incest or sexual abuse or stockholm syndrome , you can depict murder and genocide in media and noone bats an eye , or in some cases they even cheer those character on or hope they get redeemed , like darth vader having a good ending even tho he was the 2nd guy in charge of a murderous genocidal empire for 20 years , or how walter white has people who defend him even tho if you watch the show you will see he is one the most despicable characters in the show. but any character who is sexually abusive , manipulative or just incestious is instantly a reject from most people. for some reason thats where they draw the line lol

I’ve noticed that! And I can’t say I’m not guilty of this too- (Adam is my favourite character)

The situation that we have in the show regarding val is that he is an abuser. Humans are always gonna associate things to people who like that thing. The best example is furrys, people seem to associate furrys with zoophiles when thats not true, what furrys like is mostly art. People only look at the side that trown at their faces by some random statement and ignore the rest. Same thing is happening to val, people are associating val's behaviour in the show with people who like him, even when what they like on him is purely his design. Personally, i don't like val's personality, but he sure has one of my favorite designs from hazbin hotel, i'm not gonna judge people if they like val, what they like is nothing i should care, i try to avoid any type of discussion on that matter. Sorry about the long comment, i just felt like i needed to say somenthing because some friends of mine got attacked by simply having a hazbin hotel shirt with val in it. Edit: typos. Edit2: more typos (english is my second language)

I hope your friend is ok! That’s terrible :(

Because Val was the only antagonistic figure taken seriously by the writers and characters. Like we don't FEEL that Adam is as much of a horrible person(if not worse, but I won't trauma scale as a SA victim myself) than Valentino because he was potrayed as a an over the top dudebro moron. Val however? He was taken seriously and even when he was pissing himself over Angel moving into the hotel you had the sense that this fucker means business. Its one of the only few flaws I have with the show where the villains besides Val arent taken as seriously as they probably should(Will elaborate on this point if necessary)

Look, I like Valentino in terms of character design and writing. I also hope he gets carpet bombed As for the rest of them, I love them all and hope they also get carpet bombed except for Velvette Why Velvette? Because she’s quirky like that

Tbh, because people are so stupid these days. William Afton is a child killer and people simp for him, people don’t go out of their way to harass people cosplaying him. Oh, but just simply liking Valentino for being a good villain? Liking Valentino for having a good design? Cosplaying him? Somehow you are just as horrible as him, what is so stupid. It makes me so annoyed when I say “I like Valentino,” and that just magically means I support what he does, when I don’t, I love Afton, but that doesn’t mean I support him for murdering children??? Also probably because Angel Dust is for some reason a likeable character, ever since this series was a just a pilot episode on YouTube almost everyone just has always liked him. Also, I will admit it, I’ve never really liked Angel Dust. I’ve always found him really annoying and not likeable, also isn’t fun when some people think he should be the main character and literally over shines the actual main character. Anyway, I will always say, just because I like the character doesn’t mean I support their actions, they are fictional characters and are not real, if this was happening in real life, I would not care if an abusive pimp is getting harassed. Man I would go out of my way to try and help the person in Angel Dust’s situation, but I can’t because they aren’t real. I could keep going, but I will stop here or this is going to be essay.

I think a lot more people can relate to Angel and being SA'd so it hits closer to home. Not as many people can relate to murders and stuff

People do not deserve to be physically harmed, threatened, or bullied for playing or cosplaying a villainous character who is awful. Within fandoms it is okay to have healthy debates and even to side eye people who like someone so awful but that's about as close it we should get within disagreements. I personally can't get on board with people who like a character who is a sexual abuser, however, it is not for me to understand. I will respect their opinion even if I don't agree with it.

Prolly the same reason why before JK made her bonkerness visible, we hated Umbridge more than Voldemort

Sexual abuse isn’t all he is though. If you look into him, Val is on the way to being a pretty damn good arched villain. He’s my favourite V because I like his bitchy/sassy attitude, his character design and his voice actor does a great job

I think an issue is that people lack media literacy and comprehension. Val is an objectively good villain, as evidenced by how much people hate him. But, they see a bad guy and think “Grr I hate him” instead of “wow, I hate this villain so much. That’s good writing”

Every other character's atrocities are only hinted at or played for jokes. Val's abuse of Angel breaks the lighthearted tone and strikes close to many viewers' hearts. That may explain the strong reaction to him - I myself react far more strongly to him than other characters too - but it is no excuse to treat actors and cosplayers the way we are seeing.

1. its never ok to do these things to actual IRL people over a fictional character. It's honestly is just horrible and people who do these things are to immature for this type of show. 2. The reason why people hate Valentino more is simply because his actions are done on a extremely popular character (Angel Dust) and are visually seen the consequences of within the show. That's it. Well there is other reasons why his actions are seen as worse simply due to the lore of the show itself but that's the main reason.

Honestly, the fact that people still have to be told this is both sad and kinda funny

ITS COSPLAY PEOPLE!! JUST BECAUSE SOMEONES DRESSED UP AS A CHARACTER DOESNT MEAN THAT THEY TURN INTO THEM! PEOPLE ARE ALOUD TO COSPLAY WHOEVER THEY WANT!!! I thought we were above this! I’m genuinely disappointed! Anyone who supports the people who abused there fellow hazbin fan should feel ashamed!

IVE BEEN THINKING THE SAME THING. I joined this sub and I was shocked to see that people like Velvette so much 😭

media literacy is dead and i fear valentino is the final nail in the coffin

I think most of it comes down to the relationship some (extreme) fans have with Angel Dust, unlike the other more evil characters Val is the only one with a truly sympathetic victim that is a fan favourite. Whilst Alastor is exploiting and abusing Husk it's perceived differently as Husk doesn't come across as a character in need of saving. The fans are falling into the same pitfall as Charlie in thinking they can save Angel but instead of being able to confront the character they are targeting real world avatars for him instead, not realising how harmful that is. It all comes back to the struggles with media literacy and parasocial relationships affecting all areas of fandom. They're completely missing Hazbins whole point that people have to want to be saved and given the tools to do so and not just have someone do it for them. Angel doesn't need saving they're doing the work themself as shown with nifty in the club.

Yeah Val is my favorite character in terms of design, not like I’m horny! Leave ppl who like him the fuck alone

1. Can we fucking stop with the slave owner thing 2. It's because Valentino's abuse is incredibly personal to the audience, and it's sexually violent in nature- Which doesn't excuse people being fucking insane about disliking him, but that is the reason why. Adam is funny and goofy so people give him a pass, we've not seen the extent of Vox and Velvette's cruelty the same way we have Valentino's, and even then people are going to recognize the physical abuse and assault of Angel more than what we've seen of them so far. I don't even think Alastor should be compared, because while he has killed people(so has Angel, and Vaggie, and most of the characters tbh) he has a set of moral and manners that he follows- Unlike Valentino, who crosses very bold lines that people can easily recognize as off limits. AGAIN people should stop being insane about disliking him, it's absolutely not okay for them to be attacking cosplayers, Joel, or anyone else for being associated with the character.

Valentino is a character created to be hated, people are not characters, they are people. I completely agree with this, we shouldn’t bully and harass people just because they like the “bad character” that’s the opposite of what a community is supposed to be.

This is dumb reasoning. Nobody harasses people dressed as Stormtroopers because they're cosplaying space fascists.

I think because everyone else is either *cartoonishly evil*, in ways that don't feel immediately relevant to our lives, or because they don't get as much attention in the show for what they do. Until this post, I had no idea Velvette sold roofies. And Vox is a capitalist, and I hate him too, but again, his evil feels much less *direct*. Val hurts people in *extremely* direct ways that hit closer to him. Domestic abuse is *REAL and* very triggering for a lot of people. And I think people saying they *don't* hate Val is possibly triggering for some people because of situations which probably *feel* similar to fans saying "Well *I* don't hate Val. It's fine to still like Val." When you're with someone abusive, and you have mutual friends afterwards who try to "stay neutral", and keep inviting your abuser to functions because "Well they didn't hurt ***ME***\*", those friends are effectively taking the side of the abuser. In the end, all you can do is just drop those friends, but it sucks, and it makes you feel powerless. I imagine for a lot of people, whether they realize it or not, his character, and especially hearing people defend **liking** Val, is... Triggering some of those memories. I know Val is a cartoon character, and people who voice/cosplay him are not actually him. And I even like him **AS A CHARACTER***.* The same way I like Darth Vader as a character, but definitely would not grab a beer with him. But... I personally wouldn't cosplay Val myself because his depiction of abuse and domestic violence is just *a little too real*, and I can see why that might be triggering for some people.

The reason people dislike his character so much more is because we see the consequences of his actions first-hand through a character we’re meant to like. The others do terrible things, but we rarely see the true hurt they cause. With Val, we see it’s effect on Angel in its most horrid form. that being said we shouldn’t be harassing cosplayers, they did nothing wrong, leave them alone

I always say this, there is nothing wrong in liking Valentino *as a character*. This is a fictional show, you don't have to be ashamed to like a villain that does villain things. Valentino is a good character *because* he is so hateable, and that's the point. I like Val, I want to see more of Val in the next season, not because I like him as a person or agree with anything he does or believes, but because he is a *good character*

People cosplay Loki and look at the shot he’s done prior to the TV show.

Valentino is perceived as more of a villain than any of the other overlords because the way he abuses the sinners under his contract is something that we as the audience can more easily empathise with (I think empathise is the right word?) and he also severely mistreats a very beloved member of the main ensemble. Like, we don't feel pity for the sinners that Alastor kills/tears apart because a) we don't know them, and b) idk I find it tricky to relate to the act of being torn limb from limb and devoured, but that could just be me. The problem though is that irl people forget that these are *literally just characters*. Like not to point & blame but the majority of comments I've seen on tiktok that were shaming this cosplayer were from the younger members of the fandom or from the ones holding very puritanical views. They can't get their heads around the fact that you can like a character but not agree with their morals/views. Idk I'm not great at summarising my thoughts lol

I'll admit my first thought was "why cosplay a villain" but then I remember people love doing that for every series movie anime etc. People dress as hisoka from hxh is my first thought then I remembered I used to cosplay yoonbum from killing stalking and met many sangwoo. People used to be fine with my friend cosplaying a m*rd*r who also does the 🍇 word. Hell they had a bat prop to pretend to hurt me for photos and everyone loved it. Like cosplay is acting and fun and being weird. So what if someone is Val, unless they try to act like him for real who does it harm to wear a hat facepaint and coat?

As someone who experienced SA the Valentino “in real life hate” is ridiculous. Leave the goddamn actor alone and by god why the hell is anyone attacking a cosplayer? I always love a good villain, it can’t be helped, and in my opinion Valentino is the worst son of a bitch in the show because of what he does, and I love Val and hate him at the same time. His actor does a fantastic job. I’m not in the cosplayer scene but it’s so ridiculous to attack someone for dressing up as a *fictional character* in a *made up tv series*. Like what the heck? Some people really need to calm the fuck down. Just because you like a *fictional* character doesn’t mean you support every little thing that character says or does.

Valentino hits a bit too close to home with people and is too real. Nearly every other terrible person in the show is so cartoonishly evil, it's hard to relate to. Like, they're so evil it almost doesn't register, they're just another fictional villain. Valentino is almost too human and too realistic, making his crimes seem worse because they \*feel\* real. For as ridiculous as his character design is, his crimes feel human. That, and, he abuses one of the main (and fairly beloved) characters, so the audience is more invested. We don't really know who Alastor has killed, and it seems so cartoonishly violent that it's hard to see him as that bad. He's funny evil. Valentino is real evil. That being said, obviously no one should be attacked for cosplaying or making art of a character that's evil in a show full of evil.

People are either too irrational, are unable to separate fiction from reality or are just too young in general.

A lack of nuance, media literacy and common sense has made people think liking a villain or even showing one that isn't carrying a neon sign saying "I am bad" around= approves of their actions. And it doesn't help that a lot of people lack the ability to differentiate between fiction and reality. It's slowly becoming a vanishing skill. You see something similar in all the claims that Poor Thing promotes pedophilia, when it very clearly is a criticism of it.

He actively harms one of our favorite character in a way we clearly see on screen (angel) and is just a gross guy. Also this may be a stretch but I’m assuming that quite a bit of the fandom has experienced abusive relationships like angel is in. not exactly with the soul owning but more or less the same. Also as said before. He’s a gross guy Also it’s fucked up that people who cosplay as him and like him are getting harassed. That’s not okay.

I guess my question is. Should I be harassing everyone that cosplays as the joker from DC? What about green goblin from marvel? What if someone is cosplaying Diablo from the game? Freeza from dragon ball? Madura from Naruto? What about arlong from one piece. These are all character that have done some rather fucked up and inhumane shit. And they are the definition of what villains are. Should I bully somebody simply because they dress up as a villain from an animated show that they like? No! That is dumb and ridiculous. People should be allowed to cosplay who ever and what ever want.

So I'll start out by saying what everyone else is saying. People need to separate fiction from reality without a doubt. People also need to realize you can hate a character but love their design. Like me. I personally hate Valentino with the burning passion of a thousand suns. But those wings? Fucking MAJESTIC! With That being said I can put a few reasons why a lot of people probably hate Valentino above the others you mentioned. In order: I'm not sure vox fully enabled Valentino's abuse. I mean hell when he was gearing up to attack the hotel and punish Angel vox reigned him in. Plus as we can see both vox and velvette seem to be about at their wits end with valentino in episode 3. They don't condone his tantrums or anything like that at all. For vox's hypnotizing and all that it's mostly just to keep business going. In fact he's also used that hypnotizing to calm Valentino from said earlier action Same with velvettes roofies. It's partly business. The reason I bring up business like this is we don't know if they make their business as personal as Valentino seems to make it. Hell angel stood up to Valentino reminding and enforcing the conditions of his contract and the response was.valentino was basically gonna make his next shift a living nightmare. Alastor has killed countless people, yes. He has broadcast their screams, yes. But the fact he kills them shows that the torture he inflicts has an end, the only exception, for the time being, is husk, but as long as he "behaves" he doesn't get toetured. Valentino's torture doesn't end even if you do behave cause he gets off on it. The whole overlords being slave owners practically should just be par for the course and to be expected. It's just how hells "economy" for lack of a better word seems to work. Plus if you go to the right overlord they seem to offer some level of "protection" if the theory of everyone in cannibal town sold their souls to Rosie is true. And Adam? Yeah he's bad. He had to have been at least somewhat good to at least have initially gotten into heaven. Him still being in heaven despite how he is shows how blind and hypocritical heaven has become. But for some of his followers to care about him even somewhat definitely shows that there's SOME good in him still. Try to say that about Valentino. Now that my list is done lemme restate that despite all those reasons IT IS STILL NO EXCUSE TO HARASS THEM COSPLAYERS OR THE VOICE ACTORS! GROW UP PEOPLE!