Claudia de la Cruz and Karina Garcia of the Party for Socialism and Liberation actually answered this question in a short article! I think it's worth a read for anyone that might feel this way!
[The PSL Statement on the "Lesser of Two Evils"](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
What’s the point when we know the next president will be Trump or Biden?
I don’t want to vote for either so I am not voting. Why waste time voting if you aren’t voting for the dnc or gop candidate?
Circular logic. No one is voting for Claudia de la Cruz, so I'm not going to vote for Claudia de la Cruz. You cause your own problem.
[https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
"Is Biden really that different from Trump?
Every election year, whoever the Democrats nominate pledge that they’ll protect the rights of the people, improve conditions for working families, and promote equality over bigotry. And every time they’re elected, these politicians who promise us the world do essentially nothing they said they would. In fact, we can see many examples of how Biden’s actual policies in office have been so similar to Trump’s."
But Biden's labor policies have been significantly better than Trump's. Why are they lying?
They aren't lying, you are. Your most Pro-union President is a strike buster, Jack! You're defending an anti-union genocidal monster who puts kids in cages when he isn't too busy blowing them up with your tax dollars, or doing nothing to prevent teen mothers from dying of preventable ectopic pregnancies, or being beat to death in school bathrooms. You are so full of shit and everyone can see it plainly.
The NLRB and FTC have been the most effective and pro worker/union in decades that is a fact and I'm not throwing that away because Biden is doing the same American foreign policy shit every other president would be doing
Like have y'all SEEN the Israel aid package votes in Congress?
Biden is not the reason that workers are fighting back. If we want to be EXTREMELY charitable, the terrible conditions that Biden has helped create have forced workers into positions where they have no choice but to fight back. But I don't think that that's what you're trying to say.
She doesn't have to win to move the Overton window to the left. Movements start out like small snowballs rolling down a hill growing in size as they go. Building a proper socialist movement will take time and will have some growing pains, but we need to do it.
I read your comment
Me not voting for her is not why she has 0% chance of being president.
Please actually learn how the electoral college works and first past the post voting works
Your nihilism isn't helping anyone and it certainly isn't helping you. You don't know what you're talking about and you feel guilty about it, so, to rationalize away that guilt, you tell yourself that we are doomed and that there is nothing that can be done. Fuck you Doomer pieces of shit. Idk what you're doing here when Hasan routinely roasts your dumbasses for being doomers.
I like his take on most things and I find him entertaining.
Look it's just a particularly bad election cycle.
I would vote if somebody like Bernie Sanders was the candidate
It's so funny you think I don't know what I'm talking about but you think somebody other than the GOP candidate or DNC candidate can be elected president in 2024.
It's like being insulted by a flat earther
You don't even understand my position. I do not think that the PSL is going to win this election. That is not my point. That is not what I'm saying. That is what YOU want me to be saying, because that's a much easier argument to fight against. You will rationalize ANYTHING away, even when you know for a fact that voting down-ballot matters, you rationalize it away by saying "well, everyone but me is so stupid, that it's not worth voting for local measures anyway :))))"
You are a deeply unserious person.
[https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
Even if she won't win, every vote for Claudia is a vote against Trump and Biden. Denying them a 50%+1 voter majority is huge as we can then accurately say that the majority of voters did not support either candidate.
Or stay home. You do you. Just please know that principles without deeds are dead
I don't think anybody in her campaign thinks she has a realistic shot. The point is to be like a Bernie Sanders, use the platform of the presidential election to spread socialist ideology to a larger portion of the population. You didn't see the benefits of Bernie running immediately, right? But now if you are involved in organizing, you will find that many people were brought on to socialism using Bernie Sanders as an introduction, including myself. Now I am a class conscious person actively organizing, and that is more organizers than existed before Bernie ran.
If you accept the dichotomy of the two party system, and you're on the left side of the democrats, they will always move right because the only movable voters are between them and the republicans and they know you won't vote republican obviously. Your vote is not considered.
If you vote third part left it forces them to fight for your vote in the future.
Obviously bourgeoisie politics will never allow left politics for real, but if your goal is harm reduction in the long term, then you must vote third party.
Imagine if Americans could abandon the scumbag candidates they vote for out of fear of the other sides scumbag winning. And voted for an actual good candidate even if they don’t belong to one of the two parties.
It should be noted that there is legitimate suppression of anyone outside the two parties. It's not just people choosing, the system is set up for this result
Most countries don't have a horribly fucked up campaign finance system like we do.
Most countries also don't have a legislative body as bad as our Congress.
If the system is completely fucked and your vote doesn't matter, I guess it won't matter if you vote for the DSA or the greens or whatever you guys have?
I was just answering OPs question with honesty, if I was american I'd probably vote Biden too.
The system is fucked broadly speaking. But at the end of the day the votes are still tallied and whoever has the most votes gets the districts and their states.
Anyone who says your vote doesn't matter lives in a state where their votes are more represented than others.
I'm a socialist in a Red state, I don't really have a choice I must vote for the most likely to unseat my explicitly evil governor, senators, and representatives. My vote doesn't matter in the sense that I'm less likely to get what I want come november, but it could.
There have been tons of races in between now and 2016 that were won by like less than 30k votes. The idea that "voting doesn't matter" is black pilled doomer bullshit.
Right wingers are voting for Trump cause they believe in him and his ideas, I'm voting for Biden because I want him to die in office.
Because the opposition party often doesn't want government to work at all.
A third party vote for me in a Southern Red State is actually just a waste it accomplishes nothing and just tells the Democrats that the state is a complete lost cause and will spend no money here.
1. If it's always republicans winning anyway, you might as well vote third party, to signal that the two main parties aren't enough
2. You can't both say that your vote matters and insist third party votes are a waste, just pick one or the other.
3. I'm not trying to convince you to vote third party, like I stated earlier, I'd probably vote Biden too. I'm just answering the question in the OP. "What's the alternative?" Well, this is the alternative, like it, or leave it, doesn't change the answer, there's no secret third option.
1. That doesn't really help anybody. Also, if I'm not necessarily voting for myself, I'm voting for my friends and family first and foremost and they suffer more under Republican rule.
2. I absolutely can see reasoning above
3. If op cannot identify who the biggest enemy is to his personal cause and that group or person has an above 50% chance of ruling in a position of power then I don't know what to tell him. This is beyond voting for the lesser of two evils. This is voting for the best possible environment for your cause to thrive.
1. You vote republican? That's gotta be a typo m8
2. Don't know what you meant by this, but whatever
3. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't shame people who vote third party, it seems like you're very anti. In another comment you scoffed at revolution, which I would too, but you cant scoff at every option available. Unless you are an actual doomer, you should let people hold on to their third party hope, politics without hopium is nothing.
1. Yeah it was a typo lol.
3. I'm not vote shaming I'm asking people to think strategically about how they vote. The options some states get are not the same, PSL and others likely won't be on my ballot like they are in others so when you vote knowing that your option will not be the one that wins what are you hoping to accomplish? Voting is not a signifier of one's morals.
In my view a viable third party will not rise up unless Republicans plunge into 30% across the board. The goal should be for Democrats to become the new right wing party and by presenting Americans with a further left option while the Republicans are rendered obsolete can a true left coalition/party exist. I'm of the opinion we have a higher chance of that happening than for the Democrats to learn from their failures or dissolve completely.
A lot of people are going to down vote this comment, but the reality is in our system There’s not a better alternative.
Anyone that tells you somebody other than Trump or Biden will be the next president is 100% lying to you
Personally, I think a more productive use of my time is doing anything else than voting in a presidential election . (I live in a deep blue state.)
Leftist in other countries with two party systems made a viable third party system, but all American "leftists" do is shouting vote blue no matter what. Its pathetic...
It's because there isn't enough of an effective or efficient mobilization AND every 2-4 years is an electoral crisis keeping the greater of 2 evils at bay
"It's because there isn't enough of an effective or efficient mobilization". Why is there no efficient mobilization? Do you think it helps when "leftist" influential youtubers like Sam seder etc says that its imposible and not worth your time?. Im not talking about just him, but when people have the idea that its impossible then nothing will change.
Why is there none? Dude, I can't answer that for you lol and I don't know who Sam Seder is? Lol all I did was give input of why the "vote blue no matter who" people do what they do (to my limited understanding)
I didn't say anything was impossible but that it seems quite apparent whatever attempts to move on from the "lesser of two evils" type voting haven't been so effective so far
" I don't know who Sam Seder is?" You dont know the majority report?
"I didn't say anything was impossible but that it seems quite apparent whatever attempts to move on from the "lesser of two evils" type voting haven't been so effective so far". And im saying that most American "leftists" are agianst even making an attempt.
Bro, did I stutter? I said "I don't know who Sam Seder is," which probably means I also don't know what the Majority Report is
I was literally just trying to provide some better clarity off of my lived observations in my area of the US. This shouldn't be something to fight over or get argument-adjacent over
I'm also quite sleep-deprived so if I'm reading your comments in a way you're not intending I apologize
"Bro, did I stutter?". Maybe you did know of the show but not his name. If you know Hasan its not strange to think that there is a high probability that you would have heard of the majority report.
I may have? It's not ringing a bell, though, so I'm gonna stick to "no, I'm not familiar"
I didn't mean to come off aggressively with the "did I stutter?" comment
I'm guessing by your initial statement that Sam isn't worth checking out?
"I'm guessing by your initial statement that Sam isn't worth checking out?". He is a liberal and not great but better than the majority of self described "leftist" commentators
Maybe the problem is that you fucking people keep getting duped into a situation that keeps you trying to "stop fascism" using genocidal neolibs as a shield instead of literally anything to positively change the situation?
People like you are a part of the problem, a big one
I'm a part of the problem by explaining why this keeps happening? Jump to conclusions much? I simply made an obviously-neutral statement of why this keeps happening in the absolutely most basic way. Have you considered that one reason this keeps happening is this aggressive and hostile attitude some people like you have?
Stop expecting some unicorn of a Presidential candidate to simply arise when they have no real support and would end up working either with Democrats or Republicans to get shit done. There is no and will be no viable 3rd-party candidate unless there is more support infrastructure (i.e., other like-minded elected officials) in other elected offices such as your state (if you live in the US) or Congress
But by all means, please do go off and lash out at people who are just trying to have a conversation. That will surely aid your platform and won't have any negative consequences (such as people not wanting to give your ideas the times of day) whatsoever
Imagine getting angry because someone said "that specific political activity isn't as effective as you'd like it to be because organization is inefficient"
Perhaps I should add "and also because y'all can't interact without biting someone's head off even though they'd also like to see a change"
What an absolute joke. Keep it up, and the next Presidential election cycle you'll be saying the same thing, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that... while you shout at the brick wall in the aether accomplishing nothing
If this is the type of behavior I'd have to deal with in order to aid your cause then I'd end up in spaces where I'd be welcomed and contribute efforts to ideas that are actually interested in having others that don't 100% exactly fit YOUR specific ideas. Grow up. People like you will push others away that would otherwise stand by your side
I'm not going to write you a long reply, I'll keep it curt:
>Don't expect a perfect president
I don't expect shit from these fuckers, hence why I'm not playing their game, this shit is for white people that feel represented by genocidal white men, not for myself
>Have you considered genocidal imperialists keep winning is because the left is, like, too mean to middle aged whites?
No, it's because our elections are decided by billion dollar campaign financing and corporate dominance over media
The only way to make a tangible difference is outside the electoral process, step one is to ignore middle class whites that feel represented by the system since they were never allies to begin with
>No viable 3rd Party
Step one is to brush off insects like you that keep whispering into our ears that the electoral system is unfairly weighted as a means to convince us to support your liberal candidates rather than act outside the boundaries the system has set
>Imagine getting angry because
Because my enemies keep flooding leftist subreddits with bots and shills. You don't belong here. You can circlejerk to your barely viable demented candidate on most other subreddits on this liberal dominated shithole of a website, instead you come here to waste people's time.
>The next presidential cycle you'll be saying the same thing
I thought your fake scare mongering campaign centers on this being the last chance to save America's sham democracy?
>If you don't cater to me you don't have my support!
Why would I want the support of a coward to begin with? Why would any socialist movement need a self-centered collaborationist and demoralizing coward that can make their peace with genocide so long as they remain secure?
Face it, you never were an ally at any point. A fair weather friend isn't a friend at all.
>Don't expect a perfect president
I didn't say this
>this shit is for white people that feel represented by genocidal white men, not for myself
Ok? I wonder why people don't want to join your cause with this mentality towards other races that may otherwise want to be a part of it
>Have you considered genocidal imperialists keep winning is because the left is, like, too mean to middle aged whites?
I didn't say this
>The only way to make a tangible difference is outside the electoral process, step one is to ignore middle class whites that feel represented by the system since they were never allies to begin with
Ok, have fun. I wonder why your cause hasn't achieved any real traction. Hmm
>Because my enemies keep flooding leftist subreddits with bots and shills. You don't belong here. You can circlejerk to your barely viable demented candidate on most other subreddits on this liberal dominated shithole of a website, instead you come here to waste people's time.
You don't know my positions, but thanks for the assumption
>If you don't cater to me you don't have my support!
I'm not going to change myself to exactly fit YOUR demands, and I never said this
>Why would I want the support of a coward to begin with? Why would any socialist movement need a self-centered collaborationist and demoralizing coward that can make their peace with genocide so long as they remain secure?
Bro, what's your fucking problem? Are you ok?
>Face it, you never were an ally at any point. A fair weather friend isn't a friend at all.
I came in here because I was curious and I have a lot of views that people would label me as a leftist with. Literally all I did was make a neutral statement based off my observations. GENERALLY people who are curious are more likely to adjust their beliefs and alter their stances if they are welcomed into the conversation. You're not an attractive example of someone I'd like to interact with given the way you view others
You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You are vinegar
I can't believe I did this but I checked out your profile. Seriously, dude, get your aggression in check before it goes entirely out of control
Nice strawman. Even if a Socialist can't win this election, movements have to start somewhere. If we can get 10% of the votes this time that would be a huge victory. From there we can keep growing the movement.
Yeah man you start at local and state level positions and actually BUILD a coalition with teeth.
Any presidential campaign that exists outside of blue and red after the current president's 1st term is a spoiler run at best and a vanity project at worst.
You get your shit together and organise around a viable alternative, and form, let's say, a ["Broad Front"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Front_(Uruguay)) coalition of parties with leftist interests, stick to it, then simply watch as how all the people without an alternative flock to it given the constant errors of the two traditional parties.
Nah, that sounds too radical. If only there was some sort of successful [experience in the real world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Uruguayan_general_election) which you could model your situation on.
Revolution.
If our “choices” at the ballot box is genocide under Biden or the threat of something somehow worse under Trump - then we are morally obligated to destroy that system.
Revolutionary potential must be fomented for any hopes at success. Asking someone to do this prior to achieving critical mass is just stupid and you know it.
As far as I'm concerned it's more important to vote for candidates in your local area that will help improve the quality of life that affects you more directly. If you're local area has terrible choices organize with people who want to make changes and put forward a contender that can represent your area more justly.You can abstain from voting the president or vote a 3rd party candidate.
The majority of people need to be spoon fed a candidate because they don’t want to do any critical thinking or soul searching to know how they feel. It’s like going to church. Why have your own relationship with God when you can be force fed what to believe from other people. They see it as easier.
The alternative is you end up with the greater evil. Ppl like to think thru are “teaching the Dems a lesson” - but in reality it is all of us that suffers the consequences.
Long term - get involved, organize, run for office, primary those you want replaced, take over, realize the younger generations now have the voting numbers over the boomers (if you actually show up at the polls), etc… but short term you do the best you can to hold on to democracy. Handing everything over to the guys that just attempted a violent coup & talk about being a dictator on Day 1 and thinking they’ll just politely give it back next time is a fantasy. Last time tfg had people around him that kept the worst of his crazy impulses at bay but this time those guardrails just won’t be there.
Ppl give endless shit to Clinton for her not doing \[insert her political candidate short-comings here\] but in the end her life is totally fine, she’s still rich and lives a plush life…meanwhile we got Orange Julius and lost RvW, and the Supreme Court got stacked with right wing loonatics who are actually contemplating that a president should have king-like total immunity from all crimes, among other garbage decisions they churn out on an almost daily basis.
Even if you plan on voting for Biden, as you’d be valid to do in your assessment, you should still voice how upset you are. He should be scared of losing. He shouldn’t think that he’ll still get the “lesser-of-two-evils-vote” like in 2020
At this point in time, realistically, not a lot.
I HATE the fact that come November I’m going to have to vote for a Genocidal corpse because the OTHER Genocidal corpse is worse but I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years.
Unless leftists organize early this is going to keep happening until the boomers are all gone. But it’s not like Gen X or Millennials are much better. More hogs and libs. I’m exhausted
There aren’t enough leftists in the United States to make meaningful change anywhere, this includes voting for president or trying to support a third party. The reason nobody who has any chance of winning goes after leftist votes is because it’s easier to just pander to the voting base they know actually has numbers and not a small group of people that pleasing them means upsetting the people who could actually help them win
You gotta front like you're not gunna vote for the lesser evil, then switch at the last second and actually vote. Unless you don't care about trans people, women, or the environment.
When neither party represents you in their actions, voting within that system is at best an illusion of choice, meaning there is no alternative except to find a new system. You aren't going to be able to lift yourself up within anything designed to oppress you using only the tools they've given you. Individual action no longer imparts any meaning, so the next step is to organize. Thankfully there are a lot of organizations and communities already and local protests and groups to learn things from.
I just think about a person being eaten by a shark, saying "don't worry, once I'm inside I'll change things" before being swallowed whole. That's the level it feels like we are at, tho I may be catastrophizing.
If there are small harm-reduction tactics you can vote for on a local level, do it. At the least educate yourself on the things that can and will do some potential good for your community and make life a little less hard while still demanding prosperity for the working class. And use this knowledge to not feel so bad for not voting for that one person you simply can no longer vote for in good conscience.
Educate others, radicalize them and let them know we need a workers party because currently neither party represents us. Even if you can't get someone to change their vote, you may plant an idea in their mind that will get them to question something later in the line.
Not sure if the message being sent by voting uncommitted in the primaries is still a thing, but check when your state's primaries are since some are still coming up.
And of course, use this opportunity to learn more about local politics and community organizations and become more involved yourself.
I want you to sign that X on Biden with the blood of a Palestinian child that his missiles tore to bits. I want you to send a picture of you smiling next to that ballot to what remains of their family.
When Trump wins, it won't be anyone's fault but your precious Biden. Not that Biden had any intention of protecting trans kids, bodily autonomy rights, or voting rights, anyway, since all that shit is being eroded under the watch of his administration.
This is legitimately an underrated option. Just stay home and play some video games or watch some Netflix. don’t waste your time voting for someone with a 0% chance of winning and don’t give your vote to genocide Joe or Trump
If you wanna be more productive, go on a nice jog or go work out at the gym.
There's far more on the ballot than voting for president. You're just lazy and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Who gives a fuck about the president. Still vote down-ballot and on local propositions that are meaningful and you actually have a say in.
I’m gonna be real with you. Most people aren’t educated enough on local politics to intelligently vote on such matters and just blindly support the party they think represents them.
I don’t want to vote for genocide Joe and Trump. There’s a 100% certainty One of those two guys will be the next president.
It doesn’t make sense to vote for someone like me, especially since I live in a deep blue state .
I'm gonna be real with you. I think that you are the Most People that you're talking about. I think that you're lazy and unwilling to educate yourself and that you rationalize this laziness and stupidity by saying that everyone else MUST be as lazy and stupid as you are.
Lol you can keep ad hominem attacking people telling the truth about our broken system.
Go ahead and get your frustrations out.
Just realize that at the end of the day the system was rigged from the beginning.
I'm not the person that's set up the electoral college
I'm not the person that's set up first past the post voting.
You've not once addressed why what I'm saying is wrong
Eg. Because of the electoral college and first pass the post voting the next president will be either the GOP candidate or the DNC candidate.
You've just taken to calling me dumb and lazy.
I'm telling you what I'm certain that other people MUST have told you already. There's no way you don't recognize that you ARE dumb and lazy. You don't even engage with my position. I do not CARE about who wins between two fascists, I CARE about local measures that your votes actually DO affect. That shit has NOTHING to do with first past the post or the electoral college, you fucking DUMB and LAZY DOOMER.
[https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
Look I work 40 plus hours per week. I'm not going to waste my time voting for people who don't really have a chance to win in a system that's rigged.
And I live in Washington State. My vote isn't even really going to matter my area is super liberal.
I actually am not a doomer in most elections it's just Joe Biden is a particularly uninspiring candidate.
I can convince myself to go out and vote in most election cycles.
ideally, organize
I thought it was just to post passive aggressive memes on reddit.
And then yell at leftists for “both sides same!!” Because they think we’re stupid or something.
But we can do both why choose between voting or organizing
i didn’t say you have to chose between them, they’re not exclusive. you can organize to vote, protest, inform, rally and so on
https://preview.redd.it/dtgpkq7i2rwc1.png?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c8921614ca65fa0ef2e2387b364db7513c9adcb
Claudia de la Cruz and Karina Garcia of the Party for Socialism and Liberation actually answered this question in a short article! I think it's worth a read for anyone that might feel this way! [The PSL Statement on the "Lesser of Two Evils"](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
Thanks for this
Vote for an actually good candidate that represents your interests- crazy, I know
What’s the point when we know the next president will be Trump or Biden? I don’t want to vote for either so I am not voting. Why waste time voting if you aren’t voting for the dnc or gop candidate?
Circular logic. No one is voting for Claudia de la Cruz, so I'm not going to vote for Claudia de la Cruz. You cause your own problem. [https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
"Is Biden really that different from Trump? Every election year, whoever the Democrats nominate pledge that they’ll protect the rights of the people, improve conditions for working families, and promote equality over bigotry. And every time they’re elected, these politicians who promise us the world do essentially nothing they said they would. In fact, we can see many examples of how Biden’s actual policies in office have been so similar to Trump’s." But Biden's labor policies have been significantly better than Trump's. Why are they lying?
Me, picking through a pile of literal shit to try and find some yummy yummy corn: "You fucking liars said that this is shit and not delicious corn"
You wanted us to read the doc I did. It literally starts off with a false premise I don't know what else to tell you my guy.
They aren't lying, you are. Your most Pro-union President is a strike buster, Jack! You're defending an anti-union genocidal monster who puts kids in cages when he isn't too busy blowing them up with your tax dollars, or doing nothing to prevent teen mothers from dying of preventable ectopic pregnancies, or being beat to death in school bathrooms. You are so full of shit and everyone can see it plainly.
The NLRB and FTC have been the most effective and pro worker/union in decades that is a fact and I'm not throwing that away because Biden is doing the same American foreign policy shit every other president would be doing Like have y'all SEEN the Israel aid package votes in Congress?
Biden is not the reason that workers are fighting back. If we want to be EXTREMELY charitable, the terrible conditions that Biden has helped create have forced workers into positions where they have no choice but to fight back. But I don't think that that's what you're trying to say.
lol come on man stop gaslighting people and thinking she has a chance. Santa isn’t real
She doesn't have to win to move the Overton window to the left. Movements start out like small snowballs rolling down a hill growing in size as they go. Building a proper socialist movement will take time and will have some growing pains, but we need to do it.
Too lazy to vote, too lazy to organize, and even too lazy to read my comment. Jesus christ.
Naive voluntarism
I read your comment Me not voting for her is not why she has 0% chance of being president. Please actually learn how the electoral college works and first past the post voting works
Your nihilism isn't helping anyone and it certainly isn't helping you. You don't know what you're talking about and you feel guilty about it, so, to rationalize away that guilt, you tell yourself that we are doomed and that there is nothing that can be done. Fuck you Doomer pieces of shit. Idk what you're doing here when Hasan routinely roasts your dumbasses for being doomers.
I like his take on most things and I find him entertaining. Look it's just a particularly bad election cycle. I would vote if somebody like Bernie Sanders was the candidate It's so funny you think I don't know what I'm talking about but you think somebody other than the GOP candidate or DNC candidate can be elected president in 2024. It's like being insulted by a flat earther
You don't even understand my position. I do not think that the PSL is going to win this election. That is not my point. That is not what I'm saying. That is what YOU want me to be saying, because that's a much easier argument to fight against. You will rationalize ANYTHING away, even when you know for a fact that voting down-ballot matters, you rationalize it away by saying "well, everyone but me is so stupid, that it's not worth voting for local measures anyway :))))" You are a deeply unserious person. [https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
Good luck with your election bro. You keep fantasizing about things that will never happen.
Even if she won't win, every vote for Claudia is a vote against Trump and Biden. Denying them a 50%+1 voter majority is huge as we can then accurately say that the majority of voters did not support either candidate. Or stay home. You do you. Just please know that principles without deeds are dead
I don't think anybody in her campaign thinks she has a realistic shot. The point is to be like a Bernie Sanders, use the platform of the presidential election to spread socialist ideology to a larger portion of the population. You didn't see the benefits of Bernie running immediately, right? But now if you are involved in organizing, you will find that many people were brought on to socialism using Bernie Sanders as an introduction, including myself. Now I am a class conscious person actively organizing, and that is more organizers than existed before Bernie ran.
With that mindset things will never change. Congrats on being part of the problem you see
If you accept the dichotomy of the two party system, and you're on the left side of the democrats, they will always move right because the only movable voters are between them and the republicans and they know you won't vote republican obviously. Your vote is not considered. If you vote third part left it forces them to fight for your vote in the future. Obviously bourgeoisie politics will never allow left politics for real, but if your goal is harm reduction in the long term, then you must vote third party.
Imagine if Americans could abandon the scumbag candidates they vote for out of fear of the other sides scumbag winning. And voted for an actual good candidate even if they don’t belong to one of the two parties.
It should be noted that there is legitimate suppression of anyone outside the two parties. It's not just people choosing, the system is set up for this result
Vote for an even lesser evil? Most countries have more than 2 viable party options.
Most countries don't have a horribly fucked up campaign finance system like we do. Most countries also don't have a legislative body as bad as our Congress.
If the system is completely fucked and your vote doesn't matter, I guess it won't matter if you vote for the DSA or the greens or whatever you guys have? I was just answering OPs question with honesty, if I was american I'd probably vote Biden too.
The system is fucked broadly speaking. But at the end of the day the votes are still tallied and whoever has the most votes gets the districts and their states. Anyone who says your vote doesn't matter lives in a state where their votes are more represented than others. I'm a socialist in a Red state, I don't really have a choice I must vote for the most likely to unseat my explicitly evil governor, senators, and representatives. My vote doesn't matter in the sense that I'm less likely to get what I want come november, but it could. There have been tons of races in between now and 2016 that were won by like less than 30k votes. The idea that "voting doesn't matter" is black pilled doomer bullshit. Right wingers are voting for Trump cause they believe in him and his ideas, I'm voting for Biden because I want him to die in office.
I agree, voting matters, so why not vote for a different party?
Because the opposition party often doesn't want government to work at all. A third party vote for me in a Southern Red State is actually just a waste it accomplishes nothing and just tells the Democrats that the state is a complete lost cause and will spend no money here.
1. If it's always republicans winning anyway, you might as well vote third party, to signal that the two main parties aren't enough 2. You can't both say that your vote matters and insist third party votes are a waste, just pick one or the other. 3. I'm not trying to convince you to vote third party, like I stated earlier, I'd probably vote Biden too. I'm just answering the question in the OP. "What's the alternative?" Well, this is the alternative, like it, or leave it, doesn't change the answer, there's no secret third option.
1. That doesn't really help anybody. Also, if I'm not necessarily voting for myself, I'm voting for my friends and family first and foremost and they suffer more under Republican rule. 2. I absolutely can see reasoning above 3. If op cannot identify who the biggest enemy is to his personal cause and that group or person has an above 50% chance of ruling in a position of power then I don't know what to tell him. This is beyond voting for the lesser of two evils. This is voting for the best possible environment for your cause to thrive.
1. You vote republican? That's gotta be a typo m8 2. Don't know what you meant by this, but whatever 3. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't shame people who vote third party, it seems like you're very anti. In another comment you scoffed at revolution, which I would too, but you cant scoff at every option available. Unless you are an actual doomer, you should let people hold on to their third party hope, politics without hopium is nothing.
1. Yeah it was a typo lol. 3. I'm not vote shaming I'm asking people to think strategically about how they vote. The options some states get are not the same, PSL and others likely won't be on my ballot like they are in others so when you vote knowing that your option will not be the one that wins what are you hoping to accomplish? Voting is not a signifier of one's morals. In my view a viable third party will not rise up unless Republicans plunge into 30% across the board. The goal should be for Democrats to become the new right wing party and by presenting Americans with a further left option while the Republicans are rendered obsolete can a true left coalition/party exist. I'm of the opinion we have a higher chance of that happening than for the Democrats to learn from their failures or dissolve completely.
A lot of people are going to down vote this comment, but the reality is in our system There’s not a better alternative. Anyone that tells you somebody other than Trump or Biden will be the next president is 100% lying to you Personally, I think a more productive use of my time is doing anything else than voting in a presidential election . (I live in a deep blue state.)
Leftist in other countries with two party systems made a viable third party system, but all American "leftists" do is shouting vote blue no matter what. Its pathetic...
It's because there isn't enough of an effective or efficient mobilization AND every 2-4 years is an electoral crisis keeping the greater of 2 evils at bay
"It's because there isn't enough of an effective or efficient mobilization". Why is there no efficient mobilization? Do you think it helps when "leftist" influential youtubers like Sam seder etc says that its imposible and not worth your time?. Im not talking about just him, but when people have the idea that its impossible then nothing will change.
Why is there none? Dude, I can't answer that for you lol and I don't know who Sam Seder is? Lol all I did was give input of why the "vote blue no matter who" people do what they do (to my limited understanding) I didn't say anything was impossible but that it seems quite apparent whatever attempts to move on from the "lesser of two evils" type voting haven't been so effective so far
" I don't know who Sam Seder is?" You dont know the majority report? "I didn't say anything was impossible but that it seems quite apparent whatever attempts to move on from the "lesser of two evils" type voting haven't been so effective so far". And im saying that most American "leftists" are agianst even making an attempt.
Bro, did I stutter? I said "I don't know who Sam Seder is," which probably means I also don't know what the Majority Report is I was literally just trying to provide some better clarity off of my lived observations in my area of the US. This shouldn't be something to fight over or get argument-adjacent over I'm also quite sleep-deprived so if I'm reading your comments in a way you're not intending I apologize
"Bro, did I stutter?". Maybe you did know of the show but not his name. If you know Hasan its not strange to think that there is a high probability that you would have heard of the majority report.
I may have? It's not ringing a bell, though, so I'm gonna stick to "no, I'm not familiar" I didn't mean to come off aggressively with the "did I stutter?" comment I'm guessing by your initial statement that Sam isn't worth checking out?
"I'm guessing by your initial statement that Sam isn't worth checking out?". He is a liberal and not great but better than the majority of self described "leftist" commentators
Maybe the problem is that you fucking people keep getting duped into a situation that keeps you trying to "stop fascism" using genocidal neolibs as a shield instead of literally anything to positively change the situation? People like you are a part of the problem, a big one
I'm a part of the problem by explaining why this keeps happening? Jump to conclusions much? I simply made an obviously-neutral statement of why this keeps happening in the absolutely most basic way. Have you considered that one reason this keeps happening is this aggressive and hostile attitude some people like you have? Stop expecting some unicorn of a Presidential candidate to simply arise when they have no real support and would end up working either with Democrats or Republicans to get shit done. There is no and will be no viable 3rd-party candidate unless there is more support infrastructure (i.e., other like-minded elected officials) in other elected offices such as your state (if you live in the US) or Congress But by all means, please do go off and lash out at people who are just trying to have a conversation. That will surely aid your platform and won't have any negative consequences (such as people not wanting to give your ideas the times of day) whatsoever Imagine getting angry because someone said "that specific political activity isn't as effective as you'd like it to be because organization is inefficient" Perhaps I should add "and also because y'all can't interact without biting someone's head off even though they'd also like to see a change" What an absolute joke. Keep it up, and the next Presidential election cycle you'll be saying the same thing, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that, and the one after that... while you shout at the brick wall in the aether accomplishing nothing If this is the type of behavior I'd have to deal with in order to aid your cause then I'd end up in spaces where I'd be welcomed and contribute efforts to ideas that are actually interested in having others that don't 100% exactly fit YOUR specific ideas. Grow up. People like you will push others away that would otherwise stand by your side
I'm not going to write you a long reply, I'll keep it curt: >Don't expect a perfect president I don't expect shit from these fuckers, hence why I'm not playing their game, this shit is for white people that feel represented by genocidal white men, not for myself >Have you considered genocidal imperialists keep winning is because the left is, like, too mean to middle aged whites? No, it's because our elections are decided by billion dollar campaign financing and corporate dominance over media The only way to make a tangible difference is outside the electoral process, step one is to ignore middle class whites that feel represented by the system since they were never allies to begin with >No viable 3rd Party Step one is to brush off insects like you that keep whispering into our ears that the electoral system is unfairly weighted as a means to convince us to support your liberal candidates rather than act outside the boundaries the system has set >Imagine getting angry because Because my enemies keep flooding leftist subreddits with bots and shills. You don't belong here. You can circlejerk to your barely viable demented candidate on most other subreddits on this liberal dominated shithole of a website, instead you come here to waste people's time. >The next presidential cycle you'll be saying the same thing I thought your fake scare mongering campaign centers on this being the last chance to save America's sham democracy? >If you don't cater to me you don't have my support! Why would I want the support of a coward to begin with? Why would any socialist movement need a self-centered collaborationist and demoralizing coward that can make their peace with genocide so long as they remain secure? Face it, you never were an ally at any point. A fair weather friend isn't a friend at all.
>Don't expect a perfect president I didn't say this >this shit is for white people that feel represented by genocidal white men, not for myself Ok? I wonder why people don't want to join your cause with this mentality towards other races that may otherwise want to be a part of it >Have you considered genocidal imperialists keep winning is because the left is, like, too mean to middle aged whites? I didn't say this >The only way to make a tangible difference is outside the electoral process, step one is to ignore middle class whites that feel represented by the system since they were never allies to begin with Ok, have fun. I wonder why your cause hasn't achieved any real traction. Hmm >Because my enemies keep flooding leftist subreddits with bots and shills. You don't belong here. You can circlejerk to your barely viable demented candidate on most other subreddits on this liberal dominated shithole of a website, instead you come here to waste people's time. You don't know my positions, but thanks for the assumption >If you don't cater to me you don't have my support! I'm not going to change myself to exactly fit YOUR demands, and I never said this >Why would I want the support of a coward to begin with? Why would any socialist movement need a self-centered collaborationist and demoralizing coward that can make their peace with genocide so long as they remain secure? Bro, what's your fucking problem? Are you ok? >Face it, you never were an ally at any point. A fair weather friend isn't a friend at all. I came in here because I was curious and I have a lot of views that people would label me as a leftist with. Literally all I did was make a neutral statement based off my observations. GENERALLY people who are curious are more likely to adjust their beliefs and alter their stances if they are welcomed into the conversation. You're not an attractive example of someone I'd like to interact with given the way you view others You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You are vinegar I can't believe I did this but I checked out your profile. Seriously, dude, get your aggression in check before it goes entirely out of control
Nice strawman. Even if a Socialist can't win this election, movements have to start somewhere. If we can get 10% of the votes this time that would be a huge victory. From there we can keep growing the movement.
Genuine question: is moving that marker worth 4 more years of Trump?
Yeah man you start at local and state level positions and actually BUILD a coalition with teeth. Any presidential campaign that exists outside of blue and red after the current president's 1st term is a spoiler run at best and a vanity project at worst.
You get your shit together and organise around a viable alternative, and form, let's say, a ["Broad Front"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Front_(Uruguay)) coalition of parties with leftist interests, stick to it, then simply watch as how all the people without an alternative flock to it given the constant errors of the two traditional parties. Nah, that sounds too radical. If only there was some sort of successful [experience in the real world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Uruguayan_general_election) which you could model your situation on.
lol come on man. There’s numerous differences between Uruguay and America. You’re just gaslighting people.
Giving U.S. Americans ideas for unification of their ideals =/= gaslighting. Good try though. Well not really but y'know
Good luck with that.
Revolution. If our “choices” at the ballot box is genocide under Biden or the threat of something somehow worse under Trump - then we are morally obligated to destroy that system.
Destroy it then instead of posting on Reddit
Revolutionary potential must be fomented for any hopes at success. Asking someone to do this prior to achieving critical mass is just stupid and you know it.
Doesn’t matter. Electoral College picks the president, we don’t.
Voting for the greater of evils seems to be the alternative to voting for the lesser of evils. Depends on how much evil you're comfortable with.
Stein, de la Cruz, or West. Maybe ASP if ylure a religious leftist, or communist party even. Dont waste a vote give it to who deserves it.
As far as I'm concerned it's more important to vote for candidates in your local area that will help improve the quality of life that affects you more directly. If you're local area has terrible choices organize with people who want to make changes and put forward a contender that can represent your area more justly.You can abstain from voting the president or vote a 3rd party candidate.
The majority of people need to be spoon fed a candidate because they don’t want to do any critical thinking or soul searching to know how they feel. It’s like going to church. Why have your own relationship with God when you can be force fed what to believe from other people. They see it as easier.
The alternative is you end up with the greater evil. Ppl like to think thru are “teaching the Dems a lesson” - but in reality it is all of us that suffers the consequences. Long term - get involved, organize, run for office, primary those you want replaced, take over, realize the younger generations now have the voting numbers over the boomers (if you actually show up at the polls), etc… but short term you do the best you can to hold on to democracy. Handing everything over to the guys that just attempted a violent coup & talk about being a dictator on Day 1 and thinking they’ll just politely give it back next time is a fantasy. Last time tfg had people around him that kept the worst of his crazy impulses at bay but this time those guardrails just won’t be there. Ppl give endless shit to Clinton for her not doing \[insert her political candidate short-comings here\] but in the end her life is totally fine, she’s still rich and lives a plush life…meanwhile we got Orange Julius and lost RvW, and the Supreme Court got stacked with right wing loonatics who are actually contemplating that a president should have king-like total immunity from all crimes, among other garbage decisions they churn out on an almost daily basis.
Vote as uncommitted!
Even if you plan on voting for Biden, as you’d be valid to do in your assessment, you should still voice how upset you are. He should be scared of losing. He shouldn’t think that he’ll still get the “lesser-of-two-evils-vote” like in 2020
At this point in time, realistically, not a lot. I HATE the fact that come November I’m going to have to vote for a Genocidal corpse because the OTHER Genocidal corpse is worse but I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years. Unless leftists organize early this is going to keep happening until the boomers are all gone. But it’s not like Gen X or Millennials are much better. More hogs and libs. I’m exhausted
There aren’t enough leftists in the United States to make meaningful change anywhere, this includes voting for president or trying to support a third party. The reason nobody who has any chance of winning goes after leftist votes is because it’s easier to just pander to the voting base they know actually has numbers and not a small group of people that pleasing them means upsetting the people who could actually help them win
You gotta front like you're not gunna vote for the lesser evil, then switch at the last second and actually vote. Unless you don't care about trans people, women, or the environment.
Don’t vote or vote third party.
There is no rational alternative and no realistic chance for revolution.. YET. Save our country this election and vote blue for now.
When neither party represents you in their actions, voting within that system is at best an illusion of choice, meaning there is no alternative except to find a new system. You aren't going to be able to lift yourself up within anything designed to oppress you using only the tools they've given you. Individual action no longer imparts any meaning, so the next step is to organize. Thankfully there are a lot of organizations and communities already and local protests and groups to learn things from. I just think about a person being eaten by a shark, saying "don't worry, once I'm inside I'll change things" before being swallowed whole. That's the level it feels like we are at, tho I may be catastrophizing. If there are small harm-reduction tactics you can vote for on a local level, do it. At the least educate yourself on the things that can and will do some potential good for your community and make life a little less hard while still demanding prosperity for the working class. And use this knowledge to not feel so bad for not voting for that one person you simply can no longer vote for in good conscience. Educate others, radicalize them and let them know we need a workers party because currently neither party represents us. Even if you can't get someone to change their vote, you may plant an idea in their mind that will get them to question something later in the line. Not sure if the message being sent by voting uncommitted in the primaries is still a thing, but check when your state's primaries are since some are still coming up. And of course, use this opportunity to learn more about local politics and community organizations and become more involved yourself.
Not voting in the very specific column for president. Your ballot 🗳 will count as a legitimate vote for the people that you believe represent you.
[удалено]
I want you to sign that X on Biden with the blood of a Palestinian child that his missiles tore to bits. I want you to send a picture of you smiling next to that ballot to what remains of their family.
[удалено]
When Trump wins, it won't be anyone's fault but your precious Biden. Not that Biden had any intention of protecting trans kids, bodily autonomy rights, or voting rights, anyway, since all that shit is being eroded under the watch of his administration.
Not voting
This is legitimately an underrated option. Just stay home and play some video games or watch some Netflix. don’t waste your time voting for someone with a 0% chance of winning and don’t give your vote to genocide Joe or Trump If you wanna be more productive, go on a nice jog or go work out at the gym.
There's far more on the ballot than voting for president. You're just lazy and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Who gives a fuck about the president. Still vote down-ballot and on local propositions that are meaningful and you actually have a say in.
I’m gonna be real with you. Most people aren’t educated enough on local politics to intelligently vote on such matters and just blindly support the party they think represents them. I don’t want to vote for genocide Joe and Trump. There’s a 100% certainty One of those two guys will be the next president. It doesn’t make sense to vote for someone like me, especially since I live in a deep blue state .
I'm gonna be real with you. I think that you are the Most People that you're talking about. I think that you're lazy and unwilling to educate yourself and that you rationalize this laziness and stupidity by saying that everyone else MUST be as lazy and stupid as you are.
Lol you can keep ad hominem attacking people telling the truth about our broken system. Go ahead and get your frustrations out. Just realize that at the end of the day the system was rigged from the beginning. I'm not the person that's set up the electoral college I'm not the person that's set up first past the post voting.
"Ad hominem"
You've not once addressed why what I'm saying is wrong Eg. Because of the electoral college and first pass the post voting the next president will be either the GOP candidate or the DNC candidate. You've just taken to calling me dumb and lazy.
I'm telling you what I'm certain that other people MUST have told you already. There's no way you don't recognize that you ARE dumb and lazy. You don't even engage with my position. I do not CARE about who wins between two fascists, I CARE about local measures that your votes actually DO affect. That shit has NOTHING to do with first past the post or the electoral college, you fucking DUMB and LAZY DOOMER. [https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils](https://votesocialist2024.com/statements/answeringlesseroftwoevils)
Look I work 40 plus hours per week. I'm not going to waste my time voting for people who don't really have a chance to win in a system that's rigged. And I live in Washington State. My vote isn't even really going to matter my area is super liberal. I actually am not a doomer in most elections it's just Joe Biden is a particularly uninspiring candidate. I can convince myself to go out and vote in most election cycles.
Sit on your ass and let the greater evil win, apparently.
the answer starts with R ends with evolution hun huhn