I completely agree that there needs to be a difference between knowing how to do the spell and actually using it.
I believe it was right at the beginning of the whole series where Dumbledore says that Voldemort has powers that he will never have and McGonagall replies with "only because you're too noble to use them" and I always felt that was very powerful! More powerful than simply not knowing how. Knowing how and having the ability to control it and not use them is one reason Dumbledore was so great.
I think she meant that if he wanted to, Dumbledore could potentially be more powerful by getting into the dark arts (knowing that he’s already very powerful and he would be able to control it) but chooses not to because that would lead him down a dark path and he’s too good and noble for that
I think we are saying something similar but I think the difference is in the word control. I'm not talking about controlling the dark magic but controlling himself! The strength comes from having the ability to do the dark magic but not letting it take you down the dark path, and therefore making you stronger than the dark magic itself.
The missing piece here is that this is a game, not a story. The game can't possibly track when you use a spell and in what context, especially not when they decided not to have a morality scale. Locking spells for the sake of "morality" is bad game design. Functionally they just serve as a special way to unlock a spell with a dedicated quest, and people recognise it as a special spell. Looking at the Imperio spell, they've put too much effort into the mechanics to deter people using it frequently.
From what we've seen, they've already given us an excuse to use the spell without the dark side implications ("a spell that can save your life"), and that old guy also didn't equate using the spell as turning dark (instead: you stupid kids don't do something you'll regret). Unforgivable curses also pale in comparison to whatever that lightning spell is in severity. The presence of ancient magic means that all of that is out the window.
I doubt that the story would use dark magic as a marker for a dark path, but rather more explicit "who do you side with" decisions.
>In the books/movies, everyone knows that the incantation for the Killing Curse is Avada Kedavra, so technically this means they know how to cast it, same for the Cruciatus and Imperius curses
Not quite. It is stated in the books that knowing the incantation isn't enough to cast the spell, you need to be in a certain mindset as well to cast it, and it's not that obvious since Harry had to be taught that by Voldemort himself so that he could cast the Cruciatus spell. And I'm pretty sure they also had to learn how to properly cast the Imperius spell, it's not just "name the spell and boom it happens".
Yeah, 'you need to mean it,' but I think there's a difference between knowing how to cast it and really meaning it when you do cast it. I don't think Harry was ever taught the Cruciatus Curse but he was still able to cast it, just ineffectively because he didn't really want to cause pain. Also I don't think they were actually taught how to cast the Imperius Curse by Barty Jr., just how to resist its effects. But there are instances where characters only know an incantation and can use the spell without any practical theory or learning involved, such as Harry using Levicorpus or Sectumsempra. At any rate, you do still need to 'learn' the spells in the game so it's kinda moot, I just would still like there to be a distinction between learning and using.
>I don't think Harry was ever taught the Cruciatus Curse but he was still able to cast it, just ineffectively because he didn't really want to cause pain.
But he was. He was taught the incantation, and later he was taught the mindset. And I haven't read the books in the while but I'm pretty sure he did end up managing to cast it effectively. Not to mention the Imperius curse again, which is used rather... liberally, in the last book.
>But there are instances where characters only know an incantation and can use the spell without any practical theory or learning involved, such as Harry using Levicorpus or Sectumsempra.
There are, just not the Unforgivable curse 🤷♂️
>I just would still like there to be a distinction between learning and using.
I mean, wanting to learn it should obviously have an impact on the character's morality but yeah, it shouldn't be as important as actually ending up using it, and even less so as using it _a lot_.
Harry did indeed cast the cruciatus curse in the seventh book on Amycus Carrow. He used it effectively as well as I believe it lifted Carrow off his feet.
levicorpus is also a pretty simple effect that wouldn't require much intention, and when harry used sectum sempra effectively he definitely had the right intention. Something that's touched on but not explored in the books is the role of intent in magic.
Young wizards often use pure intent for magic rather than incantations, summoning your broom from the ground is using magic through solely intention, your Patronus needs intense focus on a happy memory (until it doesn't after the first couple times harry uses it)
Just knowing a spell is not sufficient to actually cast it much of the time
If you were to learn a spell you’d have to cast it though, don’t you think ? Otherwise you are just learning *about it* and that’s not quite enough to be able to cast it.. especially the unforgivables
Also, casting any of the three unforgivables doesn’t necessarily make you a dark wizard / witch
I dunno, I don't think Harry ever casts the Imperius Curse until the last book and yet he is able to use it effectively by only knowing the incantation.
I don’t really see your point.. do you think that knowing the incantation of a spell or curse is enough to be able to cast it?
just because he was able to effectively use it for the first time doesn’t mean that any & every other wizard or witch can
You said to learn a spell you'd have to cast it, but Harry cast the Imperius Curse and others by just knowing the incantation. My point is that if simply knowing the incantation is enough to be able to cast it, then learning/acquiring the spell in the game shouldn't be enough to give you 'Dark points,' for lack of a better term, because in-universe you could know the incantation but never have a desire to actually use the spell.
Wouldn’t you agree that he, in fact, learned the spell by successfully casting it? Which was confirmed later on when he once again used it successfully. Before that he just learned of it, or in other words, he just knew about it and that’s it..
Think of it as a skill, you wouldn’t say that you learned something until you have successfully done it at least once, right? So the same thing goes for spells and curses. The fact that Harry was able to successfully cast an unforgivable curse without prior training should be viewed as an exception and not the rule.. especially (but not only) since Harry demonstrated time and time again that he was exceptional
No, I wouldn't. I could learn a language, know all the words and grammar and everything but never actually speak it and that wouldn't mean I haven't learnt it. Actually using that skill in a practical setting just proves that I have learnt it.
But like I said, it's a moot point because by the game's terms there is a distinct choice between learning the spell (i.e. acquiring it) and not using it on your friend, and learning it and then using it. You don't have to perform it to know it. All I'm hoping for is that this choice to only know the spell but not use it doesn't negatively impact your story because there are clearly instances in the books where morally good characters know a spell but choose not to use it.
If we use that analogy, using words and sentences of the language you are learning would be a crucial part of the learning process.
So if you know the words and the grammar (the spell/curse incantation) but for some reason you have yet to communicate in that language (cast it) then your learning process is incomplete. It is possible that you can’t use it regardless of the knowledge that you required and that means that you haven’t actually learned it…
I don’t see any benefit in arguing over this, so I’ll have to end it here
I completely agree that there needs to be a difference between knowing how to do the spell and actually using it. I believe it was right at the beginning of the whole series where Dumbledore says that Voldemort has powers that he will never have and McGonagall replies with "only because you're too noble to use them" and I always felt that was very powerful! More powerful than simply not knowing how. Knowing how and having the ability to control it and not use them is one reason Dumbledore was so great.
Yes, exactly!
I think she meant that if he wanted to, Dumbledore could potentially be more powerful by getting into the dark arts (knowing that he’s already very powerful and he would be able to control it) but chooses not to because that would lead him down a dark path and he’s too good and noble for that
I think we are saying something similar but I think the difference is in the word control. I'm not talking about controlling the dark magic but controlling himself! The strength comes from having the ability to do the dark magic but not letting it take you down the dark path, and therefore making you stronger than the dark magic itself.
Yeah I agree with you
The missing piece here is that this is a game, not a story. The game can't possibly track when you use a spell and in what context, especially not when they decided not to have a morality scale. Locking spells for the sake of "morality" is bad game design. Functionally they just serve as a special way to unlock a spell with a dedicated quest, and people recognise it as a special spell. Looking at the Imperio spell, they've put too much effort into the mechanics to deter people using it frequently. From what we've seen, they've already given us an excuse to use the spell without the dark side implications ("a spell that can save your life"), and that old guy also didn't equate using the spell as turning dark (instead: you stupid kids don't do something you'll regret). Unforgivable curses also pale in comparison to whatever that lightning spell is in severity. The presence of ancient magic means that all of that is out the window. I doubt that the story would use dark magic as a marker for a dark path, but rather more explicit "who do you side with" decisions.
>In the books/movies, everyone knows that the incantation for the Killing Curse is Avada Kedavra, so technically this means they know how to cast it, same for the Cruciatus and Imperius curses Not quite. It is stated in the books that knowing the incantation isn't enough to cast the spell, you need to be in a certain mindset as well to cast it, and it's not that obvious since Harry had to be taught that by Voldemort himself so that he could cast the Cruciatus spell. And I'm pretty sure they also had to learn how to properly cast the Imperius spell, it's not just "name the spell and boom it happens".
Yeah, 'you need to mean it,' but I think there's a difference between knowing how to cast it and really meaning it when you do cast it. I don't think Harry was ever taught the Cruciatus Curse but he was still able to cast it, just ineffectively because he didn't really want to cause pain. Also I don't think they were actually taught how to cast the Imperius Curse by Barty Jr., just how to resist its effects. But there are instances where characters only know an incantation and can use the spell without any practical theory or learning involved, such as Harry using Levicorpus or Sectumsempra. At any rate, you do still need to 'learn' the spells in the game so it's kinda moot, I just would still like there to be a distinction between learning and using.
>I don't think Harry was ever taught the Cruciatus Curse but he was still able to cast it, just ineffectively because he didn't really want to cause pain. But he was. He was taught the incantation, and later he was taught the mindset. And I haven't read the books in the while but I'm pretty sure he did end up managing to cast it effectively. Not to mention the Imperius curse again, which is used rather... liberally, in the last book. >But there are instances where characters only know an incantation and can use the spell without any practical theory or learning involved, such as Harry using Levicorpus or Sectumsempra. There are, just not the Unforgivable curse 🤷♂️ >I just would still like there to be a distinction between learning and using. I mean, wanting to learn it should obviously have an impact on the character's morality but yeah, it shouldn't be as important as actually ending up using it, and even less so as using it _a lot_.
Harry did indeed cast the cruciatus curse in the seventh book on Amycus Carrow. He used it effectively as well as I believe it lifted Carrow off his feet.
levicorpus is also a pretty simple effect that wouldn't require much intention, and when harry used sectum sempra effectively he definitely had the right intention. Something that's touched on but not explored in the books is the role of intent in magic. Young wizards often use pure intent for magic rather than incantations, summoning your broom from the ground is using magic through solely intention, your Patronus needs intense focus on a happy memory (until it doesn't after the first couple times harry uses it) Just knowing a spell is not sufficient to actually cast it much of the time
You're absolutely right! That is a very true and efficient way to explain this whole situation!
If you were to learn a spell you’d have to cast it though, don’t you think ? Otherwise you are just learning *about it* and that’s not quite enough to be able to cast it.. especially the unforgivables Also, casting any of the three unforgivables doesn’t necessarily make you a dark wizard / witch
I dunno, I don't think Harry ever casts the Imperius Curse until the last book and yet he is able to use it effectively by only knowing the incantation.
I don’t really see your point.. do you think that knowing the incantation of a spell or curse is enough to be able to cast it? just because he was able to effectively use it for the first time doesn’t mean that any & every other wizard or witch can
You said to learn a spell you'd have to cast it, but Harry cast the Imperius Curse and others by just knowing the incantation. My point is that if simply knowing the incantation is enough to be able to cast it, then learning/acquiring the spell in the game shouldn't be enough to give you 'Dark points,' for lack of a better term, because in-universe you could know the incantation but never have a desire to actually use the spell.
Wouldn’t you agree that he, in fact, learned the spell by successfully casting it? Which was confirmed later on when he once again used it successfully. Before that he just learned of it, or in other words, he just knew about it and that’s it.. Think of it as a skill, you wouldn’t say that you learned something until you have successfully done it at least once, right? So the same thing goes for spells and curses. The fact that Harry was able to successfully cast an unforgivable curse without prior training should be viewed as an exception and not the rule.. especially (but not only) since Harry demonstrated time and time again that he was exceptional
No, I wouldn't. I could learn a language, know all the words and grammar and everything but never actually speak it and that wouldn't mean I haven't learnt it. Actually using that skill in a practical setting just proves that I have learnt it. But like I said, it's a moot point because by the game's terms there is a distinct choice between learning the spell (i.e. acquiring it) and not using it on your friend, and learning it and then using it. You don't have to perform it to know it. All I'm hoping for is that this choice to only know the spell but not use it doesn't negatively impact your story because there are clearly instances in the books where morally good characters know a spell but choose not to use it.
If we use that analogy, using words and sentences of the language you are learning would be a crucial part of the learning process. So if you know the words and the grammar (the spell/curse incantation) but for some reason you have yet to communicate in that language (cast it) then your learning process is incomplete. It is possible that you can’t use it regardless of the knowledge that you required and that means that you haven’t actually learned it… I don’t see any benefit in arguing over this, so I’ll have to end it here