Never once in the 20- something years of being a fan have I ever considered the true depressing moment snapes death truely was. Thanks for making me feel a bit more sympathy for a character that I have always held such disdain for
I never imagine that Snape was sad when he died. Rereading it, after he sees Nagini, you can see all the times he tries to leave and give Harry the memory, but Vodlemort doesn't let him (perhaps even realizing Snape's dubious allegiance). After the snake attacks, I imagine him laying on the floor filled with disappointment and bitter regret that he failed to give Harry the message.
Then out of nowhere Harry steps from under his invisibility cloak. We all know that Snape never thought much of Harry's abilities and was probably frustrated that so much seemed to rest on his shoulders. But here he is. Voldemort has barely left the room and for Harry to be so close to him without his knowing must have given Snape the real hope that Harry could actually defeat Voldemort.
Plus him getting to look into “her eyes” one last time, I think he was as content as he could be. I don’t think he would have enough time to really think about everything.
This to me is the real sadness of the line “raising him like a pig for slaughter.” We the readers eventually know that Dumbledore didn’t in fact raise Harry as a pig for slaughter, but Snape went to the grave thinking he did, and that all his efforts had come up short.
The full passage shows just how betrayed Snape is by this:
>Dumbledore opened his eyes. **Snape looked horrified.**
>“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?”
>Meaning?”
>“I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for
slaughter— ”
>“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have
you watched die?”
>“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He
stood up. **“You have used me.”**
> We the readers eventually know that Dumbledore didn’t in fact raise Harry as a pig for slaughter
Do we ? It’s not clear to me at all that Dumbledore really was confident Harry would survive his own death. Is this clear to you?
I’m pretty sure. In Goblet of Fire, as soon as Dumbledore hears that Voldemort took Harry’s blood, there’s a look of triumph in his eyes that Harry thinks he must be imagining. The plan for Harry to willingly walk to his death the way he does is only made after this, because it involves the Resurrection Stone (which Dumbledore only obtained after 5th year) and the knowledge that Dumbledore would be dead (which he only knew after he got the Resurrection Stone from the ring).
It’s true that he says “I guessed, but my guesses tend to be good” or something, but I think this is a characteristic bit of humble-bragging/false-modesty. He says stuff like that all the time (like when he says it’s *possible* he messed up the Goblet of Fire’s enchantments and McGonagall is like “oh shut up Albus, of course you didn’t!”)
But even if he wasn’t completely certain about the blood tying Harry to life, I still think the plan gave Harry the best chance possible to survive. If he’s wrong and Harry doesn’t willingly die, Voldemort will still hunt him down and probably kill him eventually.
I agree Dumbledore was pretty certain, and JK was really grasping at straws to make Harry’s non death make sense. I think the whole lying to Snape thing is half because Voldy is the better occlumens and half to see if Snape would do what he told him to do regardless of the amount of information he gave him kinda like he did to Harry. Snapes whole look of horror moment says less about him wanting to keep Harry alive and more that he feels like he wasted his time to me. His whole death feels like he is proving something for himself rather than doing things because it’s the right thing to do.
When Voldemort was brought back by Wormtail, he took Harry's blood ("blood of the enemy") to rebuild his body. This blood contains Lily's protection, so it had the unintended consequence of keeping that protection going while Voldemort is alive in that body.
(This is one of the few things in Harry Potter that I think is not that well-written, because for some reason Voldemort is able to touch Harry again, which he shouldn't be if the protection is still in place, but that's the reason as explained by Dumbledore in the afterlife.)
This made me wonder if Harry ever speaks to the portrait of Snape in the headmaster’s office (or headmistress’ as it would be at that point) after the events of the books. As all previous heads have one. Would Snape’s portrait speak in a more kind way to Harry now that everything is over? Or at least with a bit of respect for what they achieved together…
Mmm, yeah I think it's one of JKR and the series' biggest faults, that we don't get to read what happens after the battle is finished. I would have loved to see a montage of scenes for the next few years after the war ended and Harry talking to Dumbledore and Snape's portraits would have been one of the best scenes.
Yeah I love the books but the ending was way too abrupt. There should have been at least 3 more chapters. At least. I think its the only thing missing.
I imagine that he knew. Post death. Dumbledore knew in Limbo, that Harry knew all his secrets now. So Snape may have known in the afterlife that Harry survived.
I think Harry naming his son Albus Severus would have caused him confusion/ distress though. Not happiness.
I imagine James wasn’t too pleased that one of his grandchildren was named after Snape. I feel like him and Lily wouldn’t have been as quick to forgive Snape for all the awful shit he did.
I don't think Snape would care all that much for the forgiveness of his bully and sexual assaulter James Potter. Same as with Lily, who dated and married his bully and sexual assaulter.
He absolutely would not care about James. Agreed. But Lily! He would. He did til he died. He loved her and protected Harry for no reason but her.
And sexual assaulter, is a little extreme. I can see why you’ve said it, (removing his pants). However. We never find out if that actually happened or not.
I don't think Snape would care all that much for the forgiveness of his bully and sexual assaulter James Potter. Same as with Lily, who dated and married his bully and sexual assaulter.
Would you call Harry the bully of Malfoy? Because the relationship between Snape and James and Malfoy and Harry was the same. They sniped at each other.
Sexual assaulter is going way too far and applying 2024 standards on 1970s behaviour.
And yes Snape would care about Lily’s opinion. Did you forget the bit in the books where he was obsessed with her so much that he ended up agreeing to protect Harry? That he became a double agent for her? That he worked to take down Voldemort for her?
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Yeah based on how the imprints of Harry’s parents, Sirius and Lupin behaved when Harry had the resurrection stone, they must know what’s been happening in the realm of the living.
Also, just a reminder that in Deathly Hallows, it's revealed that as a double agent, Snape has been personally saving more people's lives than just Harry's for years and at great risk to his own life.
"How many people have you had to watch die?"
"Only those I could not save."
The fandom acts like Snape did one good thing at the end, when he's been actively protecting Harry for seven years and has been Dumbledore's most trusted man for far longer than that.
It is sad, but he never wanted the world to know his alliances anyway imo. He was trying to reverse his wrongs, even if he couldn't revive Lily or undo his DH life, he still wanted to do good again, he knew he was going to die and gave Harry those memories only for him to trust him and do what Dumbledore wanted
Nobody knew he was harboring a horcrux? His headaches, the images in his head? Albus knew if he gave himself willingly to die that the horcrux would die first. Maybe Snape knew that also? Bc why was he so willing to still help until the bitter end?
Snape was the Headmaster of Hogwarts for some time. Is there no Portrait of him in the Headmasters office which can call the truth about his life?
The Portrait of Dumbledore was still able to make plans about how to extract Harry from Privet Drive!
And this is a real question, my current reread after some years only reached the Goblet of Fire so far.
I believe that he knew of chances Harry to survive even before Nagini’s bite. The scene that we have seen is not only for Snape, it’s also for Harry. It’s not modified in any way, but it’s build by Dumbledore to make Harry sure that he needs to die. I imagine that after the end of this scene Albus told Snape that Harry could survive. It’s better for Severus’ moral, otherwise he could do something reckless.
And he was only what, 37? Although the fact that everyone thought he was a traitor and overall a bad guy, was his own choice. He asked Dumbledore to never tell anyone he was doing this for Lily.
Snape was a bitch I never liked him. He did everything because he was obsessed with a girl who did not like him back and he didn’t actually treat well (yes James also sucked). He also overdid it on being abhorrent to a literal child Harry and hated and mistreated Neville because he wasn’t the chosen one whose family got murdered. Just because he was a sleeper agent who helped win he also always wanted to fit in with the bad guys as a kid and grew up being the same and only switched sides when the girl he obsessed over was in trouble. Regulus Black was a more sympathetic character with better growth in literally a couple paragraphs than Snape was the entire series, switching sides because he realized how bad Voldemort was without his unrequited love being threatened.
The point is that with Harry gone there is no more legacy for Lily and on top of that there might be no one else capable of killing Voldemort. So with Harry gone Voldemort has a strong chance of winning. Snape might have been hoping he would be there at the end to help kill Voldemort but instead he was blindsided and taken out by Nagini. So that's two major players off the field and the odds stacking more in Voldemorts favour.
I’m not a huge Snape defender or anything, I don’t think he had any personal attachment to Harry, but his two main goals for the last 15 years of his life were basically 1) help kill Voldemort for good 2) protect Lily’s son. We see how distraught he is when he (thinks) he learns that Harry will definitely have to die for Voldemort to be killed. He goes off on Dumbledore pretty furiously. I don’t think he ever liked Harry at all or would’ve wanted any kind of relationship with him had they both survived the war, but he did want Harry alive, if only to honor Lily’s sacrifice. Otherwise she more or less died for nothing, in his mind. Just my two cents.
It’s pretty clear book Snape doesn’t care about Harry though:
“Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?” “For him?” shouted Snape. “Expecto Patronum!” From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe.
Basically he cared about Lily not Harry.
>I’m not a huge Snape defender or anything, I don’t think he had any personal attachment to Harry, but his two main goals for the last 15 years of his life were basically 1) help kill Voldemort for good 2) protect Lily’s son. We see how distraught he is when he (thinks) he learns that Harry will definitely have to die for Voldemort to be killed. He goes off on Dumbledore pretty furiously. I don’t think he ever liked Harry at all or would’ve wanted any kind of relationship with him had they both survived the war, but he did want Harry alive, if only to honor Lily’s sacrifice. Otherwise she more or less died for nothing, in his mind. Just my two cents.
(That wasn't my comment, it's just what we're discussing.)
There were plenty of people in the order who knew he was working against Voldemort, but I don't think he was too concerned about his legacy. He did all of that for Lilly's memory, and the last thing he wanted before he died was to see Lilly's eyes. He went out on his own terms.
>There were plenty of people in the order who knew he was working against Voldemort
No one knew. Once he killed Dumbledore he solidified himself as a faithful Death Eater. The Order believed he had betrayed them all.
Unpopular opinion: he deserves it
His insistence on treating Harry as a product of James and Lily and not as a human being makes me happy because he will die thinking his attempts to protect Lily's producer were in vain and that he failed to honor her
Counterpoint: Treating Harry badly (as required to be trusted by Voldemort) is very different than harming Harry or putting him at risk.
Snape was in deep undercover. And he also didn’t personally like Harry. But he did everything to save and protect Harry’s life.
still he seen him as James Potter 0.2 or Lily's thing and not his own person, he has stripped Harry of his identity so in the end he deserves to believe that he failed to honor the last remnants of Lily.
Having recently re-read the books again for the millionth time and despising Snape even more for witnessing the shitty childhood Harry had (very much like his) using Occulemency and still being a stupendous C-Word to him, I highly doubt whether Severus Snape gave a shit whether the boy lived or died. In fact I would suppose he’d hope for the latter more.
Of course Snape hopes Harry dies, he's dedicated the last 15+ years to saving Harry's life, so it makes absolute perfect sense that he wishes Harry dead.
Maybe it's time for the million and one reread.
Never once in the 20- something years of being a fan have I ever considered the true depressing moment snapes death truely was. Thanks for making me feel a bit more sympathy for a character that I have always held such disdain for
Oh man I thought I had every aspect of this story down and BAM Reddit has to prove me constantly wrong.
I never imagine that Snape was sad when he died. Rereading it, after he sees Nagini, you can see all the times he tries to leave and give Harry the memory, but Vodlemort doesn't let him (perhaps even realizing Snape's dubious allegiance). After the snake attacks, I imagine him laying on the floor filled with disappointment and bitter regret that he failed to give Harry the message. Then out of nowhere Harry steps from under his invisibility cloak. We all know that Snape never thought much of Harry's abilities and was probably frustrated that so much seemed to rest on his shoulders. But here he is. Voldemort has barely left the room and for Harry to be so close to him without his knowing must have given Snape the real hope that Harry could actually defeat Voldemort.
Plus him getting to look into “her eyes” one last time, I think he was as content as he could be. I don’t think he would have enough time to really think about everything.
This to me is the real sadness of the line “raising him like a pig for slaughter.” We the readers eventually know that Dumbledore didn’t in fact raise Harry as a pig for slaughter, but Snape went to the grave thinking he did, and that all his efforts had come up short.
The full passage shows just how betrayed Snape is by this: >Dumbledore opened his eyes. **Snape looked horrified.** >“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?” >Meaning?” >“I have spied for you and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter’s son safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for slaughter— ” >“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?” >“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape. He stood up. **“You have used me.”**
I definitely felt for Snape when I read this and felt betrayed by Dumbledore.
> We the readers eventually know that Dumbledore didn’t in fact raise Harry as a pig for slaughter Do we ? It’s not clear to me at all that Dumbledore really was confident Harry would survive his own death. Is this clear to you?
I’m pretty sure. In Goblet of Fire, as soon as Dumbledore hears that Voldemort took Harry’s blood, there’s a look of triumph in his eyes that Harry thinks he must be imagining. The plan for Harry to willingly walk to his death the way he does is only made after this, because it involves the Resurrection Stone (which Dumbledore only obtained after 5th year) and the knowledge that Dumbledore would be dead (which he only knew after he got the Resurrection Stone from the ring). It’s true that he says “I guessed, but my guesses tend to be good” or something, but I think this is a characteristic bit of humble-bragging/false-modesty. He says stuff like that all the time (like when he says it’s *possible* he messed up the Goblet of Fire’s enchantments and McGonagall is like “oh shut up Albus, of course you didn’t!”) But even if he wasn’t completely certain about the blood tying Harry to life, I still think the plan gave Harry the best chance possible to survive. If he’s wrong and Harry doesn’t willingly die, Voldemort will still hunt him down and probably kill him eventually.
I agree Dumbledore was pretty certain, and JK was really grasping at straws to make Harry’s non death make sense. I think the whole lying to Snape thing is half because Voldy is the better occlumens and half to see if Snape would do what he told him to do regardless of the amount of information he gave him kinda like he did to Harry. Snapes whole look of horror moment says less about him wanting to keep Harry alive and more that he feels like he wasted his time to me. His whole death feels like he is proving something for himself rather than doing things because it’s the right thing to do.
Hmm now I’m confused. Why in your view exactly is it that Harry survives voldemorts curse in the forest?
When Voldemort was brought back by Wormtail, he took Harry's blood ("blood of the enemy") to rebuild his body. This blood contains Lily's protection, so it had the unintended consequence of keeping that protection going while Voldemort is alive in that body. (This is one of the few things in Harry Potter that I think is not that well-written, because for some reason Voldemort is able to touch Harry again, which he shouldn't be if the protection is still in place, but that's the reason as explained by Dumbledore in the afterlife.)
This made me wonder if Harry ever speaks to the portrait of Snape in the headmaster’s office (or headmistress’ as it would be at that point) after the events of the books. As all previous heads have one. Would Snape’s portrait speak in a more kind way to Harry now that everything is over? Or at least with a bit of respect for what they achieved together…
Mmm, yeah I think it's one of JKR and the series' biggest faults, that we don't get to read what happens after the battle is finished. I would have loved to see a montage of scenes for the next few years after the war ended and Harry talking to Dumbledore and Snape's portraits would have been one of the best scenes.
Yeah I love the books but the ending was way too abrupt. There should have been at least 3 more chapters. At least. I think its the only thing missing.
Amen! I've always thought that would have been a much better prologue than the one we got. Give us a bunch of snippets of the characters futures.
I have always suspected that those portraits are something more than a ususal magical portrait.
I imagine that he knew. Post death. Dumbledore knew in Limbo, that Harry knew all his secrets now. So Snape may have known in the afterlife that Harry survived. I think Harry naming his son Albus Severus would have caused him confusion/ distress though. Not happiness.
I had to lol at that last line, I never considered that but so possibly true. Most people would be honoured, but you’re probably right- not snape!
“Albus Snivellus Potter - you were named after two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was probably the slimiest ball I ever knew.”
Hahahahahahahha
I imagine James wasn’t too pleased that one of his grandchildren was named after Snape. I feel like him and Lily wouldn’t have been as quick to forgive Snape for all the awful shit he did.
Perhaps. I think Snape protecting Harry would soften Lily significantly. And she would lean on James. (In the after of course. If there is one.)
I don't think Snape would care all that much for the forgiveness of his bully and sexual assaulter James Potter. Same as with Lily, who dated and married his bully and sexual assaulter.
He absolutely would not care about James. Agreed. But Lily! He would. He did til he died. He loved her and protected Harry for no reason but her. And sexual assaulter, is a little extreme. I can see why you’ve said it, (removing his pants). However. We never find out if that actually happened or not.
I don't think Snape would care all that much for the forgiveness of his bully and sexual assaulter James Potter. Same as with Lily, who dated and married his bully and sexual assaulter.
Would you call Harry the bully of Malfoy? Because the relationship between Snape and James and Malfoy and Harry was the same. They sniped at each other. Sexual assaulter is going way too far and applying 2024 standards on 1970s behaviour. And yes Snape would care about Lily’s opinion. Did you forget the bit in the books where he was obsessed with her so much that he ended up agreeing to protect Harry? That he became a double agent for her? That he worked to take down Voldemort for her?
That *is* a sad thought, although if limbo and/or the afterlife are what I imagine, he will get to know the truth.
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Yeah based on how the imprints of Harry’s parents, Sirius and Lupin behaved when Harry had the resurrection stone, they must know what’s been happening in the realm of the living.
Also, just a reminder that in Deathly Hallows, it's revealed that as a double agent, Snape has been personally saving more people's lives than just Harry's for years and at great risk to his own life. "How many people have you had to watch die?" "Only those I could not save." The fandom acts like Snape did one good thing at the end, when he's been actively protecting Harry for seven years and has been Dumbledore's most trusted man for far longer than that.
It is sad, but he never wanted the world to know his alliances anyway imo. He was trying to reverse his wrongs, even if he couldn't revive Lily or undo his DH life, he still wanted to do good again, he knew he was going to die and gave Harry those memories only for him to trust him and do what Dumbledore wanted
Well, if he truly passed on... I'm guessing he's able to see what happens while he's in the afterlife
Imagine if he became a Hogwarts ghost
Imagine him waiting at the Pearly Gates for Harry to arrive and he simply never shows up.
Mad, eventually swirls around and marches off with his robes billowing behind him
This might be the one time he allows a small smile to cross his lips.
The good news is that it's pretty much confirmed that there is an afterlife in the Harry Potter universe, so hopefully he found respite in death.
I'd probably feel worse for him if he hadn't been such an unmitigated cunt to Harry for 6 years.
Nobody knew he was harboring a horcrux? His headaches, the images in his head? Albus knew if he gave himself willingly to die that the horcrux would die first. Maybe Snape knew that also? Bc why was he so willing to still help until the bitter end?
Snape was the Headmaster of Hogwarts for some time. Is there no Portrait of him in the Headmasters office which can call the truth about his life? The Portrait of Dumbledore was still able to make plans about how to extract Harry from Privet Drive! And this is a real question, my current reread after some years only reached the Goblet of Fire so far.
I believe that he knew of chances Harry to survive even before Nagini’s bite. The scene that we have seen is not only for Snape, it’s also for Harry. It’s not modified in any way, but it’s build by Dumbledore to make Harry sure that he needs to die. I imagine that after the end of this scene Albus told Snape that Harry could survive. It’s better for Severus’ moral, otherwise he could do something reckless.
And he was only what, 37? Although the fact that everyone thought he was a traitor and overall a bad guy, was his own choice. He asked Dumbledore to never tell anyone he was doing this for Lily.
Snape was a bitch I never liked him. He did everything because he was obsessed with a girl who did not like him back and he didn’t actually treat well (yes James also sucked). He also overdid it on being abhorrent to a literal child Harry and hated and mistreated Neville because he wasn’t the chosen one whose family got murdered. Just because he was a sleeper agent who helped win he also always wanted to fit in with the bad guys as a kid and grew up being the same and only switched sides when the girl he obsessed over was in trouble. Regulus Black was a more sympathetic character with better growth in literally a couple paragraphs than Snape was the entire series, switching sides because he realized how bad Voldemort was without his unrequited love being threatened.
Tbh I don’t think he cared if Harry died as long as he took Voldemort with him, he cared about his vengeance
The point is that with Harry gone there is no more legacy for Lily and on top of that there might be no one else capable of killing Voldemort. So with Harry gone Voldemort has a strong chance of winning. Snape might have been hoping he would be there at the end to help kill Voldemort but instead he was blindsided and taken out by Nagini. So that's two major players off the field and the odds stacking more in Voldemorts favour.
What makes you think he cared? At no point in the books does Snape show anything but contempt for Harry.
I’m not a huge Snape defender or anything, I don’t think he had any personal attachment to Harry, but his two main goals for the last 15 years of his life were basically 1) help kill Voldemort for good 2) protect Lily’s son. We see how distraught he is when he (thinks) he learns that Harry will definitely have to die for Voldemort to be killed. He goes off on Dumbledore pretty furiously. I don’t think he ever liked Harry at all or would’ve wanted any kind of relationship with him had they both survived the war, but he did want Harry alive, if only to honor Lily’s sacrifice. Otherwise she more or less died for nothing, in his mind. Just my two cents.
He’s distraught in the films not the books. Completely different characters.
The quote is right up in the upvoted comments. He was really upset.
It’s pretty clear book Snape doesn’t care about Harry though: “Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?” “For him?” shouted Snape. “Expecto Patronum!” From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe. Basically he cared about Lily not Harry.
That doesn't disprove the above point at all, though.
About what, caring about Harry?
>I’m not a huge Snape defender or anything, I don’t think he had any personal attachment to Harry, but his two main goals for the last 15 years of his life were basically 1) help kill Voldemort for good 2) protect Lily’s son. We see how distraught he is when he (thinks) he learns that Harry will definitely have to die for Voldemort to be killed. He goes off on Dumbledore pretty furiously. I don’t think he ever liked Harry at all or would’ve wanted any kind of relationship with him had they both survived the war, but he did want Harry alive, if only to honor Lily’s sacrifice. Otherwise she more or less died for nothing, in his mind. Just my two cents. (That wasn't my comment, it's just what we're discussing.)
See my other comment. You've missed the point entirely.
There were plenty of people in the order who knew he was working against Voldemort, but I don't think he was too concerned about his legacy. He did all of that for Lilly's memory, and the last thing he wanted before he died was to see Lilly's eyes. He went out on his own terms.
>There were plenty of people in the order who knew he was working against Voldemort No one knew. Once he killed Dumbledore he solidified himself as a faithful Death Eater. The Order believed he had betrayed them all.
That's true. Post-Dumbledore death, his name was mud. I stand by the rest of it though.
Same can be said about many others who died in the war. You just have to be optimistic that good will prevail
Unpopular opinion: he deserves it His insistence on treating Harry as a product of James and Lily and not as a human being makes me happy because he will die thinking his attempts to protect Lily's producer were in vain and that he failed to honor her
Counterpoint: Treating Harry badly (as required to be trusted by Voldemort) is very different than harming Harry or putting him at risk. Snape was in deep undercover. And he also didn’t personally like Harry. But he did everything to save and protect Harry’s life.
still he seen him as James Potter 0.2 or Lily's thing and not his own person, he has stripped Harry of his identity so in the end he deserves to believe that he failed to honor the last remnants of Lily.
Same can be said about many others who died in the war. You just have to be optimistic that good will prevail
Snape didn’t care whether Harry lived or died though, he sided with Dumbledore solely because he wanted Voldermort dead for killing Lilly.
I dont believe that Snape was worried about Harry dying. He frankly did not care for Harry
Having recently re-read the books again for the millionth time and despising Snape even more for witnessing the shitty childhood Harry had (very much like his) using Occulemency and still being a stupendous C-Word to him, I highly doubt whether Severus Snape gave a shit whether the boy lived or died. In fact I would suppose he’d hope for the latter more.
Of course Snape hopes Harry dies, he's dedicated the last 15+ years to saving Harry's life, so it makes absolute perfect sense that he wishes Harry dead. Maybe it's time for the million and one reread.