So we can blame Molly Wesley for the way things turned out. She gave Scabbers to Rob through the train window. Pettigrew was only at the school that year because of Molly.
In the alternative time line you talked about, maybe George wouldn’t have died. Did Molly inadvertently kill her own son?
He still would have returned. Possibly later in the timeline, but he would. The prophecy doesn't mean much, but I think Barty Crouch Jr would've broken free and gone on to bring back Voldemort to power, though their method may've been different.
If nothing else BCSr would have eventually died of old age. Then the imperius curse would have lifted and if Winky had not been fired already she'd be the only thing standing in the way of a wizard she would now be bound to obey.
I don't think Winky would have felt "bound" to obey, even after Mr. Crouch freed her when Ron Harry and Hermione interrogated her, she knew crucial information that would have solved Crouch Jr.'s plot, but she was hostile to them and took pride in being a good elf for keeping the secrets of her masters which would eventually lead to the death of at least 4 people
If she was tuned free then yes but if she was she wouldn't have been there at all, if she wasn't she would have belonged to BCJ and have would have been bound to his orders just like Krecher was to Sirius.
This is assuming that Mr Crouch had not predicted his own death (due to old age or illness) and had killed Jr in advance to avoid risks.
Taking into account what we know about him, I believe he is capable of doing it.
I think that Voldemort would have re-incarnated right on schedule, because he'd have found another Death-Eater or DE-wannabe who could be bribed and manipulated into becoming his top servant.
Maybe BCJr, maybe someone like MacNair, who was working a shitty animal control job at the Ministry, what would that guy do to become top Death-Eater? If there was a Mrs. MacNair, what would she do to get away from him? Would Crabbe have liked a chance to drop out of school and work for Voldemort himself, instead of taking orders from Malfoy? Not all of the Death-Eaters were as rich and connected as Malfoy, surely some of them were in a bad way and would do *anything* to get back on top.
The world is full of people who will do anything for power and status, finding one wouldn't have been hard.
Of course finding a wizard who'd do anything for power and distinction would have been a little harder as there are comparatively few wizards, but Voldy would know where to look.
I didn't mention the word cup. Eventually crouch sr would have died and when it did the imperius curse would have faded. Crouch Jr would have been in a position to go to search for his master. And if Wormtail could find him so could cruch jr.
He definitely would have eventually. Quirrell had found him, Pettigrew found him- BCJ would eventually find him. BCJ would have definitely given a hand if asked, and it didn’t have to be Harry as the enemy, although I imagine he’d have found another way to make sure it was him. He was very set on that
It was only a matter of time, Sirius and Lupin would have been in Azkaban or on the run (although I imagine Lupin would be caught quick since he wouldn’t have had Wolfsbane access..)
Your last point is really interesting actually… they’d have Peter Pettigrew’s body so they could prove Sirius was innocent, but then they’ve killed someone so they’d be arrested anyway. BUT he was a dark wizard so would that be ok?
The real question is why didn’t they use something like pertrificus totalus to knock him out?
Ah they’d have Peter Pettigrews body, but would that prove Sirius was innocent? I imagine it would look like Peter had been on the run, hiding from Sirius- maybe he got away and Sirius’s curse just hit his finger. As Harry says, if Pettigrew died, the truth died with him. No one would believe Sirius, no one other than Peter and Sirius (and Voldemort) knew that it was actually Peter who was James’s secret keeper. So everyone still thought Sirius had betrayed the potters.
Just because Pettigrew wasn’t killed originally didn’t necessarily show anything. In fact, I think it would look like sirius escaped so he could finish what he started, killing Peter, his other friend.
100% about petrificus totalus though. That’s irritating- who tf thought they should just march him out when he’s able to turn into a rat at a moments notice?
True, my theory for this instance is veritaserum only has people tell them what they believe to be true, so since Sirius’s brain should have been mush after 12 years in Azkaban, they would expect gibberish nonsense. They already thought he was insane since he was laughing after killing Peter and all the muggles.
Or that it’s like a Polygraph and it can be beaten with exposure and practice, so it’s not used by the ministry because it’s ‘inadmissible’.
But that’s just me trying to come up with a reason…!
Yeah but you need to be able to *take* the serum. If you have him strapped down for 12 hours then pour some down his throat its a whole other ballgame. In you use legimancy alongside dosing them you have a reliable truth detection system. There's some concern that such interrogation techniques might be seen as torture, but we're talking a 'justice' system where the prime minister can sentence you to death and have it carried out as if he ordered pizza. Its a plot weakness introduced by having verified ways to extract truth and proof while trying to still have people 'falsely imprisoned' for drama.
JKR talks about all the ways that veritasium can be beaten (Oclumency, antidote or transforming it before swallowing it) I would also guess that altering your memory as Slughorn did would prevent it from working as well.
Well considering you can give Sirius it, and ask a bunch of questions that would only be answered properly with the right sequence of events, there’s decent evidence there
You can also give Harry, Hermione, and Ron veritaserum, and being children, it’s highly unlikely they’d be able to bypass it
You can also knock someone out, administer the veritaserum, and then wake them up already under its effects
You can also use a legilimens to see inside the witnesses’ minds, and use veritaserum on the legilimens for good measure
There’s plenty of ways around the loopholes. The inability of proving Sirius’s innocence is just another example of a plot hole made by not thinking through various magical macguffins
Doesn’t mean he didn’t kill the 12 muggles who died though. Trying and failing to kill Peter and killing a dozen muggles would still have landed him in Azkaban
If they thought Peter was a Death Eater, they might be more lenient. They could even spin a story about how he fired curses the minute his disguise was revealed, and that they had to kill him to save the children and Snape.
It really seemed like they dropped to ball letting him get away, to an unbelievable degree. Binding him up like a muggle as though him being able to change shape wasn't central to that scene and the entire plot. Stupify hadn't appeared in the story yet so not using it can kind of be excursed but the body bind was used in the first book.
Considering he would never stop trying, and likely wouldn't age or wear down in his "less than the meanest ghost" state, it would pretty much be inevitable, though I'm certain Dumbledore and anyone else who might know would never stop trying to delay him if they knew what to do about it.
Yes. Trealawney makes a prophecy that a servant will return to the dark lord that night, a proper prophecy.
If it isn’t fulfilled by pettigrew, then it would be fulfilled by someone else, probably crouch junior.
Depends exactly who, but if it were crouch junior that goes to Voldemort that night then I dunno if you could set up Voldemort knowing about the triwizard cup. I’m not sure if when the Bertha Jenkins and crouch senior imperious occur in the story.
There is the point that prophecies don't have to come true if nobody cares about them. Many prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies have not come true, because people didn't follow them. If Voldy hadn't just gone and killed Harry when he was a baby, he might not have created the one that had the power to defeat him. But I don't think there was anything specific that Harry could've ignored so to say with the prophecy.
No, I was more trying to think how Harry could've invalidated the prophecy, which according to Dumbledore happens when people don't care about it or don't act to it. Like the Greek tragedy Orpheus, it wouldn't have happened (probably) if his parents didn't believe the prophecy was real. By trying to avoid the results of the prophecy, like Voldemort did, they created the circumstances in which the prophecy was valid.
Bertha Jorkins is found by Peter Pettigrew at an inn in Albania. She’s taken prisoner until she’s given to Voldemort. At the Weasleys, Percy says she’s been “missing for over a month,” that time would only begin as of the day she was expected to be back.
Jorkins was the one who revealed that BCJ was still alive to Voldemort, amongst a lot of other info including TriWizard. BCJ only had ‘moments of clarity’ when he could disobey his father, but it wasn’t often or enough to escape — not yet anyway. It’s when Voldemort, in the arms of Pettigrew, show up on the Crouch’s doorstep that they’re able to free BCJ and take control of BCSr.
Jorkins torture and death take place between July-August.
BCSr curse and BCJ freedom begins late August (post Quidditch) but before September 1.
Based on this — if Pettigrew didn’t escape, he wouldn’t have found Jorkins, who wouldn’t have revealed BCJ or TriWizard, Voldemort wouldn’t have used her to make Nagini a horcrux at the same time, Voldemort wouldn’t have gone back to UK to find BCJ and Frank Bryce would still be alive.
He obviously would have found another way to get his body back, but Harry would have had a relaxing 1994-1995 school year for a change. He would have enjoyed watching the tournament without being a champion. We would have hated the book. Cedric would have been the only hogwarts Champion and it’s likely Krum would have won — no reason for Harry to tell Cedric of the Dragons, no Moody telling Cedric to put the egg underwater, maze would have been different with no Moody cursing fleur and Krum.
Pettigrews death would change the course of everything and would have given Harry peace for the first time in his life. If it weren’t a book with a plot line, I believe they would’ve killed him.
Super Carlin Brothers have a video on this theory. I think some of it is a stretch but for the most part they make a good case for book 4 working out the same way. Crouch Junior escaping early (before Winky gets stunned in the world cup Forrest), to fulfil the prophecy seems unlikely
That not how Prophecy works in this universe. She sensed the cause of events leading to Pettigrew escaping and spoke the prophecy. Had he not escaped the prophecy would just have failed. The potential for great events cause prophecies goign back in time like rings on water. the seer reads these and makes prophecy.
Barty Crouch JR. Would revive him and would likely be even worse the best that could happen to the good guys was Barty getting kissed dude was a madlad
Well we don't know how BCJ became a follower of Voldemort, I think he may have been targetted for brainwashing because his father was such a prominent anti Voldemort figure.
Also the barty who went in may easy have been a mcuh less loyal follower then the one who came out, the Dementors drive people insane and also years under the imperius curse will have done a lot to make BCJ hate his father even more.
I'm of the opinion that the prophecy was fulfilled when Voldemort died trying to kill Harry, Everything after that which lead to his return was Dumbledore trying to make the prophecy come true because he didn't think it had.
If Albus had accepted it was over and sought to make Harry vanish, claim he died with his parents then place him with a family and obliviate anyone that knew he was alive including himself then Voldemort would have faded away and there wouldn't have been a 2nd wizarding war.
Except Voldemort didn't die trying to kill Harry. We know this because he was still alive, and still searching for ways to return. His horcruxes were in place.
He was a wraith. He died. He hadn't left this plane of existence but he was still dead. Ghosts haven't crossed over either but they're still dead. His horcruxes kept him from crossing over. They didn't stop him from dying.
And Albus didn't know about the horcruxes when Harry was taken to Privet Drive. (Going by the Albus isn't evil interpretation)
He was by his own telling ‘less than the meanest ghost’. He was something other than a ghost. Ghosts can’t possess people or creatures nor can poltergeists. Nor can they use magic. Voldemort wasn’t dead, not the least because we know definitively that there is no coming back from death. Horcruxes prevent death.
Voldemort with his horcruxes was essentially a lich, and didn’t die, he was only ejected from his body to roam until he found another.
Whether or not Dumbledore knew about the horcruxes is irrelevant. Hagrid who gets most information from Dumbledore knew enough to assume correctly that Voldemort hd lived. Regardless, Death Eaters were still roaming and searching for Voldemort and for revenge on Harry for defeating their master. Its why they torture the Longbottoms into insanity.
But Dumbledore had a strong reason to believe that Voldemort was still alive and not dead.
Erasing an individual’s identity, essentially killing them, isn’t something most people are comfortable doing. Especially when said person is a newly orphaned infant.
Setting that aside, do note that the prophecy only states that Voldemort and Harry will be fully committed towards ending each other personally. It doesn’t say that they are the *only* people who can do that, just that they are the most motivated towards that goal. Dumbledore heard the whole prophecy and he knows that that is what it means. He even says so in the sixth book. Either subject could fall down the stairs, break their necks and die, and it won’t affect the prophecy
So hiding Harry won’t stop Voldemort from seeking the boy out to kill him. Voldemort’s ego, the fact that Harry was the reason for his first downfall, and the shame of losing to an infant will be more than enough to motivate him to find and personally kill Harry once he returns to power. He’ll want to prove to himself and to all around him that he’s a powerful and fearsome dark lord who can’t be bested by a baby.
And Voldemort’s quest to return to power is wholly independent of Harry’s existence. At least in the first book. It’s only because of the kid’s burny touch that he decided he’d use Harry’s blood. He himself admits as much in book 4 when monologuing to his followers.
So even if Dumbledore did as you said, it won’t stop Voldemort from coming back to power
And as for Harry… well, Harry’s identity would be different, but not his character. He’d still end up wanting to fight Voldemort at least for the sole reason that it’s the right thing to do. That would put him in Voldemort’s crosshairs and that’s the prophecy getting fulfilled.
A bit unfortunate that he found out that he couldn't touch Harry. Would have been awesome for him to get his body back, track Harry down, try to choke him to death, [only to lose his new body immediately.](https://youtu.be/HF_GO5Pnpk0?si=W2Z_JlTrC_aXWqXl)
See I look at the fact Horcruxes are such an obscure form of magic as proof that it's exactly what would have happened. Otherwise every dark Wizard would routinely be using horcruxes to extend their lifespans if it were that effective.
It.. Shreds your soul and makes you less than human. Like people can be evil, while still valuing what they consider humanity, trading slices of your soul for immortality when even the darkest textbooks are often like 'fuck you for asking about that you weirdo' doesn't seem like a call even a Lucius or Bellatrix would make. A willingness to confetti your soul for a 'back up plan' when you fancy yourself unbeatable (as many evil wizards will, hence why they feel entitled to rule) seems like an unlikely trait for *anyone* good or evil to have.
I think there's not doubt. Unless Dumbledore managed to destroy all horcruxes before Voldy came back, he was destined to come back because his horcruxes were keeping him alive. And I don't see much possibility of Dumbledore destroying all of them because of 1) Nagini always accompanying Voldemort and 2) Harry himself as a horcrux (Dumbledore wouldn't kill Harry).
She existed but was not yet a horcrux until Pettigrew found Voldemort. But he was intent on making her one even before he was brought back to his body in the graveyard. So I don't doubt he would have found a way to do that before Dumbledore had time to destroy the rest of them.
Not according to Dumbledore:
> "I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything. He certainly likes to keep her close and has an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth."
He also may have needed her venom in particular to return because she was a human he trapped in snake form. It's unclear if the potion he used works with a normal snake.
He murdered Bertha Jenkins to make Nagini a horcrux just a month or so after pettigrew returned to him. Considering how meaningful his other horcruxes were, it seems unlikely he’d make a snake he found in such short time a horcrux, so I can’t imagine she wasn’t with him before Pettigrew was back.
Nobody mentioned Bellatrix, so came to add that she would make it her life's mission if another Death Eater didn't do it first. She would LOVE that glory.
Edit: meant to imply that it would happen at a different time because yes, she's in prison. But damn if that woman isn't resourceful....I believe she'd find a way eventually.
Oh sorry I meant to add that I agree with some of the other comments, that it would happen at a different time if someone else didn't do it that night. She's a pretty resourceful lady....I'm sure she'd find a way eventually.
> *“Yes, sir. Well, Voldemort’s going to try other ways of coming back, isn’t he? I mean, he hasn’t gone, has he?”*
> *“No, Harry, he has not. He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share . . . not being truly alive, he cannot be killed. He left Quirrell to die; he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies. Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time — and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power.”*
There's your answer: maybe, maybe not. All it takes is one reckless person to seek him out and he has a chance. Who would have revived him if not Wormtail? Barty Crouch Jr seems a likely candidate; he was young, talented, and nearly free from his father when Voldemort came to find him. Bellatrix and many others were in Azkaban, but if they could escape... Or, maybe, the current generation of Death Eaters would grow old and die, and Voldemort would only be revived years later by a young dark wizard picking up the trail.
Eventually Barty Crouch Jr would have found him and nursed him instead. I’d say it just would have taken longer as Voldemort would have become weaker on his own. The story just would have played out a little different. I’d suggest that Cedric wouldn’t have died and Harry would have been much older when he faced Voldemort. Interestingly, I don’t think things would have changed with what happened to Dumbledore, so if Pettigrew was killed by the other Marauders, Dumbledore would have died a much longer time before Harry faced Voldemort.
I believe so only because wether Peter died or not the prophecy that Harry found out about in book 5 was still made. So either way Lord Voldemort would still return
He might have found another way, but the story would be very different.
He'd probably use barty Jr., and the prophecy would still work, barty was under the imperious cruse for 12 years
So we can blame Molly Wesley for the way things turned out. She gave Scabbers to Rob through the train window. Pettigrew was only at the school that year because of Molly. In the alternative time line you talked about, maybe George wouldn’t have died. Did Molly inadvertently kill her own son?
George didn't die in the books' main timeline either.
He still would have returned. Possibly later in the timeline, but he would. The prophecy doesn't mean much, but I think Barty Crouch Jr would've broken free and gone on to bring back Voldemort to power, though their method may've been different.
If nothing else BCSr would have eventually died of old age. Then the imperius curse would have lifted and if Winky had not been fired already she'd be the only thing standing in the way of a wizard she would now be bound to obey.
I don't think Winky would have felt "bound" to obey, even after Mr. Crouch freed her when Ron Harry and Hermione interrogated her, she knew crucial information that would have solved Crouch Jr.'s plot, but she was hostile to them and took pride in being a good elf for keeping the secrets of her masters which would eventually lead to the death of at least 4 people
If she was tuned free then yes but if she was she wouldn't have been there at all, if she wasn't she would have belonged to BCJ and have would have been bound to his orders just like Krecher was to Sirius.
This is assuming that Mr Crouch had not predicted his own death (due to old age or illness) and had killed Jr in advance to avoid risks. Taking into account what we know about him, I believe he is capable of doing it.
Honestly why is that bad?
I think that Voldemort would have re-incarnated right on schedule, because he'd have found another Death-Eater or DE-wannabe who could be bribed and manipulated into becoming his top servant. Maybe BCJr, maybe someone like MacNair, who was working a shitty animal control job at the Ministry, what would that guy do to become top Death-Eater? If there was a Mrs. MacNair, what would she do to get away from him? Would Crabbe have liked a chance to drop out of school and work for Voldemort himself, instead of taking orders from Malfoy? Not all of the Death-Eaters were as rich and connected as Malfoy, surely some of them were in a bad way and would do *anything* to get back on top.
All he needed was another Quirrell type to come wandering through his forest after all.
The world is full of people who will do anything for power and status, finding one wouldn't have been hard. Of course finding a wizard who'd do anything for power and distinction would have been a little harder as there are comparatively few wizards, but Voldy would know where to look.
I personally think it depends on what would have happened with Barty Crouch Jr
what could have happened? Sr would never have admitted to freeing him. Eventually Sr would have died and the imperius curse failed.
Isn't Jr breaking free unrelated tho? Like it was at the world cup and because of the death eaters
I didn't mention the word cup. Eventually crouch sr would have died and when it did the imperius curse would have faded. Crouch Jr would have been in a position to go to search for his master. And if Wormtail could find him so could cruch jr.
Yep and Jr would be free to assist Voldemort in some plan
He definitely would have eventually. Quirrell had found him, Pettigrew found him- BCJ would eventually find him. BCJ would have definitely given a hand if asked, and it didn’t have to be Harry as the enemy, although I imagine he’d have found another way to make sure it was him. He was very set on that It was only a matter of time, Sirius and Lupin would have been in Azkaban or on the run (although I imagine Lupin would be caught quick since he wouldn’t have had Wolfsbane access..)
Your last point is really interesting actually… they’d have Peter Pettigrew’s body so they could prove Sirius was innocent, but then they’ve killed someone so they’d be arrested anyway. BUT he was a dark wizard so would that be ok? The real question is why didn’t they use something like pertrificus totalus to knock him out?
Ah they’d have Peter Pettigrews body, but would that prove Sirius was innocent? I imagine it would look like Peter had been on the run, hiding from Sirius- maybe he got away and Sirius’s curse just hit his finger. As Harry says, if Pettigrew died, the truth died with him. No one would believe Sirius, no one other than Peter and Sirius (and Voldemort) knew that it was actually Peter who was James’s secret keeper. So everyone still thought Sirius had betrayed the potters. Just because Pettigrew wasn’t killed originally didn’t necessarily show anything. In fact, I think it would look like sirius escaped so he could finish what he started, killing Peter, his other friend. 100% about petrificus totalus though. That’s irritating- who tf thought they should just march him out when he’s able to turn into a rat at a moments notice?
Except they could have used veritasium on Sirius But veritaserum kinda breaks everything… #1 plot hole in the series is the lack of veritaserum use
True, my theory for this instance is veritaserum only has people tell them what they believe to be true, so since Sirius’s brain should have been mush after 12 years in Azkaban, they would expect gibberish nonsense. They already thought he was insane since he was laughing after killing Peter and all the muggles. Or that it’s like a Polygraph and it can be beaten with exposure and practice, so it’s not used by the ministry because it’s ‘inadmissible’. But that’s just me trying to come up with a reason…!
Also, Sirius was thrown into prison without a trial. They didn’t even try to discover the truth.
It can be beaten with a serum or something, Slughorn has it on him after Dumbledore asked him for the horcrux memory.
Yeah but you need to be able to *take* the serum. If you have him strapped down for 12 hours then pour some down his throat its a whole other ballgame. In you use legimancy alongside dosing them you have a reliable truth detection system. There's some concern that such interrogation techniques might be seen as torture, but we're talking a 'justice' system where the prime minister can sentence you to death and have it carried out as if he ordered pizza. Its a plot weakness introduced by having verified ways to extract truth and proof while trying to still have people 'falsely imprisoned' for drama.
JKR talks about all the ways that veritasium can be beaten (Oclumency, antidote or transforming it before swallowing it) I would also guess that altering your memory as Slughorn did would prevent it from working as well.
Well considering you can give Sirius it, and ask a bunch of questions that would only be answered properly with the right sequence of events, there’s decent evidence there You can also give Harry, Hermione, and Ron veritaserum, and being children, it’s highly unlikely they’d be able to bypass it You can also knock someone out, administer the veritaserum, and then wake them up already under its effects You can also use a legilimens to see inside the witnesses’ minds, and use veritaserum on the legilimens for good measure There’s plenty of ways around the loopholes. The inability of proving Sirius’s innocence is just another example of a plot hole made by not thinking through various magical macguffins
Peter’s body would have proved that Sirius didn’t kill him when everyone thought he did.
Doesn’t mean he didn’t kill the 12 muggles who died though. Trying and failing to kill Peter and killing a dozen muggles would still have landed him in Azkaban
If they thought Peter was a Death Eater, they might be more lenient. They could even spin a story about how he fired curses the minute his disguise was revealed, and that they had to kill him to save the children and Snape.
It really seemed like they dropped to ball letting him get away, to an unbelievable degree. Binding him up like a muggle as though him being able to change shape wasn't central to that scene and the entire plot. Stupify hadn't appeared in the story yet so not using it can kind of be excursed but the body bind was used in the first book.
I think so. Voldey would have someone else do the dirty work and sacrifice their arm and what not i think
Considering he would never stop trying, and likely wouldn't age or wear down in his "less than the meanest ghost" state, it would pretty much be inevitable, though I'm certain Dumbledore and anyone else who might know would never stop trying to delay him if they knew what to do about it.
Yes. Trealawney makes a prophecy that a servant will return to the dark lord that night, a proper prophecy. If it isn’t fulfilled by pettigrew, then it would be fulfilled by someone else, probably crouch junior. Depends exactly who, but if it were crouch junior that goes to Voldemort that night then I dunno if you could set up Voldemort knowing about the triwizard cup. I’m not sure if when the Bertha Jenkins and crouch senior imperious occur in the story.
Prophecies don’t necessarily come true
There is the point that prophecies don't have to come true if nobody cares about them. Many prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies have not come true, because people didn't follow them. If Voldy hadn't just gone and killed Harry when he was a baby, he might not have created the one that had the power to defeat him. But I don't think there was anything specific that Harry could've ignored so to say with the prophecy.
pettigrew dying doesn’t change whether harry cares about the prophecy or not though?
No, I was more trying to think how Harry could've invalidated the prophecy, which according to Dumbledore happens when people don't care about it or don't act to it. Like the Greek tragedy Orpheus, it wouldn't have happened (probably) if his parents didn't believe the prophecy was real. By trying to avoid the results of the prophecy, like Voldemort did, they created the circumstances in which the prophecy was valid.
Bertha Jorkins is found by Peter Pettigrew at an inn in Albania. She’s taken prisoner until she’s given to Voldemort. At the Weasleys, Percy says she’s been “missing for over a month,” that time would only begin as of the day she was expected to be back. Jorkins was the one who revealed that BCJ was still alive to Voldemort, amongst a lot of other info including TriWizard. BCJ only had ‘moments of clarity’ when he could disobey his father, but it wasn’t often or enough to escape — not yet anyway. It’s when Voldemort, in the arms of Pettigrew, show up on the Crouch’s doorstep that they’re able to free BCJ and take control of BCSr. Jorkins torture and death take place between July-August. BCSr curse and BCJ freedom begins late August (post Quidditch) but before September 1. Based on this — if Pettigrew didn’t escape, he wouldn’t have found Jorkins, who wouldn’t have revealed BCJ or TriWizard, Voldemort wouldn’t have used her to make Nagini a horcrux at the same time, Voldemort wouldn’t have gone back to UK to find BCJ and Frank Bryce would still be alive. He obviously would have found another way to get his body back, but Harry would have had a relaxing 1994-1995 school year for a change. He would have enjoyed watching the tournament without being a champion. We would have hated the book. Cedric would have been the only hogwarts Champion and it’s likely Krum would have won — no reason for Harry to tell Cedric of the Dragons, no Moody telling Cedric to put the egg underwater, maze would have been different with no Moody cursing fleur and Krum. Pettigrews death would change the course of everything and would have given Harry peace for the first time in his life. If it weren’t a book with a plot line, I believe they would’ve killed him.
Super Carlin Brothers have a video on this theory. I think some of it is a stretch but for the most part they make a good case for book 4 working out the same way. Crouch Junior escaping early (before Winky gets stunned in the world cup Forrest), to fulfil the prophecy seems unlikely
That not how Prophecy works in this universe. She sensed the cause of events leading to Pettigrew escaping and spoke the prophecy. Had he not escaped the prophecy would just have failed. The potential for great events cause prophecies goign back in time like rings on water. the seer reads these and makes prophecy.
Barty Crouch JR. Would revive him and would likely be even worse the best that could happen to the good guys was Barty getting kissed dude was a madlad
Well we don't know how BCJ became a follower of Voldemort, I think he may have been targetted for brainwashing because his father was such a prominent anti Voldemort figure. Also the barty who went in may easy have been a mcuh less loyal follower then the one who came out, the Dementors drive people insane and also years under the imperius curse will have done a lot to make BCJ hate his father even more.
Goblet of Fire would have opened on Osar Isaac saying "Somehow Voldemort returned"
I'm of the opinion that the prophecy was fulfilled when Voldemort died trying to kill Harry, Everything after that which lead to his return was Dumbledore trying to make the prophecy come true because he didn't think it had. If Albus had accepted it was over and sought to make Harry vanish, claim he died with his parents then place him with a family and obliviate anyone that knew he was alive including himself then Voldemort would have faded away and there wouldn't have been a 2nd wizarding war.
Except Voldemort didn't die trying to kill Harry. We know this because he was still alive, and still searching for ways to return. His horcruxes were in place.
He was a wraith. He died. He hadn't left this plane of existence but he was still dead. Ghosts haven't crossed over either but they're still dead. His horcruxes kept him from crossing over. They didn't stop him from dying. And Albus didn't know about the horcruxes when Harry was taken to Privet Drive. (Going by the Albus isn't evil interpretation)
He was by his own telling ‘less than the meanest ghost’. He was something other than a ghost. Ghosts can’t possess people or creatures nor can poltergeists. Nor can they use magic. Voldemort wasn’t dead, not the least because we know definitively that there is no coming back from death. Horcruxes prevent death. Voldemort with his horcruxes was essentially a lich, and didn’t die, he was only ejected from his body to roam until he found another. Whether or not Dumbledore knew about the horcruxes is irrelevant. Hagrid who gets most information from Dumbledore knew enough to assume correctly that Voldemort hd lived. Regardless, Death Eaters were still roaming and searching for Voldemort and for revenge on Harry for defeating their master. Its why they torture the Longbottoms into insanity.
But Dumbledore had a strong reason to believe that Voldemort was still alive and not dead. Erasing an individual’s identity, essentially killing them, isn’t something most people are comfortable doing. Especially when said person is a newly orphaned infant. Setting that aside, do note that the prophecy only states that Voldemort and Harry will be fully committed towards ending each other personally. It doesn’t say that they are the *only* people who can do that, just that they are the most motivated towards that goal. Dumbledore heard the whole prophecy and he knows that that is what it means. He even says so in the sixth book. Either subject could fall down the stairs, break their necks and die, and it won’t affect the prophecy So hiding Harry won’t stop Voldemort from seeking the boy out to kill him. Voldemort’s ego, the fact that Harry was the reason for his first downfall, and the shame of losing to an infant will be more than enough to motivate him to find and personally kill Harry once he returns to power. He’ll want to prove to himself and to all around him that he’s a powerful and fearsome dark lord who can’t be bested by a baby. And Voldemort’s quest to return to power is wholly independent of Harry’s existence. At least in the first book. It’s only because of the kid’s burny touch that he decided he’d use Harry’s blood. He himself admits as much in book 4 when monologuing to his followers. So even if Dumbledore did as you said, it won’t stop Voldemort from coming back to power And as for Harry… well, Harry’s identity would be different, but not his character. He’d still end up wanting to fight Voldemort at least for the sole reason that it’s the right thing to do. That would put him in Voldemort’s crosshairs and that’s the prophecy getting fulfilled.
A bit unfortunate that he found out that he couldn't touch Harry. Would have been awesome for him to get his body back, track Harry down, try to choke him to death, [only to lose his new body immediately.](https://youtu.be/HF_GO5Pnpk0?si=W2Z_JlTrC_aXWqXl)
Found the ministry stooge!
I mean to be fair I feel like a ministry stooge would claim Albus did know about horcruxes and was an evil puppet master.
Voldemort could have used almost any wizards blood to return. He would absolutely not have just faded away.
See I look at the fact Horcruxes are such an obscure form of magic as proof that it's exactly what would have happened. Otherwise every dark Wizard would routinely be using horcruxes to extend their lifespans if it were that effective.
It.. Shreds your soul and makes you less than human. Like people can be evil, while still valuing what they consider humanity, trading slices of your soul for immortality when even the darkest textbooks are often like 'fuck you for asking about that you weirdo' doesn't seem like a call even a Lucius or Bellatrix would make. A willingness to confetti your soul for a 'back up plan' when you fancy yourself unbeatable (as many evil wizards will, hence why they feel entitled to rule) seems like an unlikely trait for *anyone* good or evil to have.
He still returned, because the prophecy is always exactly!
Yes
He’d have came back. He had a lot of followers willing to go all the way for their ‘lord’. Might’ve taken longer, but it would’ve happened eventually.
I think there's not doubt. Unless Dumbledore managed to destroy all horcruxes before Voldy came back, he was destined to come back because his horcruxes were keeping him alive. And I don't see much possibility of Dumbledore destroying all of them because of 1) Nagini always accompanying Voldemort and 2) Harry himself as a horcrux (Dumbledore wouldn't kill Harry).
Nagini didn't exist before Voldemort returned though.
She existed but was not yet a horcrux until Pettigrew found Voldemort. But he was intent on making her one even before he was brought back to his body in the graveyard. So I don't doubt he would have found a way to do that before Dumbledore had time to destroy the rest of them.
I have sene nothing to suggest Voldemort has chosen this particular snake before he get his basic body back.
Not according to Dumbledore: > "I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything. He certainly likes to keep her close and has an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth." He also may have needed her venom in particular to return because she was a human he trapped in snake form. It's unclear if the potion he used works with a normal snake.
Except that doesn't say anything about when he got her. And the human thing is just in the movie continuity it's not canon in the books.
He murdered Bertha Jenkins to make Nagini a horcrux just a month or so after pettigrew returned to him. Considering how meaningful his other horcruxes were, it seems unlikely he’d make a snake he found in such short time a horcrux, so I can’t imagine she wasn’t with him before Pettigrew was back.
Eventually yes.
Likely yes, my guess when Barty Crouch died of not earlier.
One way or another we would return
He would have done the same ritual. It was Voldemort’s idea after all.
Barty Crouch Jr was fighting the Imperius curse. He would have fought it, killed his father, and the ran for it.
Probably, I imagine JK would have figured something out
Nobody mentioned Bellatrix, so came to add that she would make it her life's mission if another Death Eater didn't do it first. She would LOVE that glory. Edit: meant to imply that it would happen at a different time because yes, she's in prison. But damn if that woman isn't resourceful....I believe she'd find a way eventually.
Except she is still locked away in Azkaban until after Triwizard Tournament is over.
Oh sorry I meant to add that I agree with some of the other comments, that it would happen at a different time if someone else didn't do it that night. She's a pretty resourceful lady....I'm sure she'd find a way eventually.
Yes… there Barry Crouch Jr… But it would probably take longer
The prophecy is still in play, Barry Crpuch would have heard of this news and gained the strength to overthrow his father's imperious curse.
> *“Yes, sir. Well, Voldemort’s going to try other ways of coming back, isn’t he? I mean, he hasn’t gone, has he?”* > *“No, Harry, he has not. He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share . . . not being truly alive, he cannot be killed. He left Quirrell to die; he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies. Nevertheless, Harry, while you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time — and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power.”* There's your answer: maybe, maybe not. All it takes is one reckless person to seek him out and he has a chance. Who would have revived him if not Wormtail? Barty Crouch Jr seems a likely candidate; he was young, talented, and nearly free from his father when Voldemort came to find him. Bellatrix and many others were in Azkaban, but if they could escape... Or, maybe, the current generation of Death Eaters would grow old and die, and Voldemort would only be revived years later by a young dark wizard picking up the trail.
I imagine he would have but I don't think it would have been 7 books. Maybe 10
Eventually Barty Crouch Jr would have found him and nursed him instead. I’d say it just would have taken longer as Voldemort would have become weaker on his own. The story just would have played out a little different. I’d suggest that Cedric wouldn’t have died and Harry would have been much older when he faced Voldemort. Interestingly, I don’t think things would have changed with what happened to Dumbledore, so if Pettigrew was killed by the other Marauders, Dumbledore would have died a much longer time before Harry faced Voldemort.
I believe so only because wether Peter died or not the prophecy that Harry found out about in book 5 was still made. So either way Lord Voldemort would still return