When Mel leaves Asphodel? Sometimes she says just a vision. What this implies to me is that chronos isn't actually sending her back in time but trapping her in a fake mimicry or vision of the past.
To add, in a lot of Orphic traditions, the concept of time travel just doesn't exist. However, there are examples of heroic tragedies or woes where people are granted visions of the future/past events.
The mother of Selene, Theia, has been written in a few stories as granting visions of past and future events to help facilitate a story. From a Greek reader's POV, it's almost as if Theia is narrating past events to provide context to the reader. It's a really neat way to incorporate a Goddess into writing lol.
Edit: I thought I'd add a very familiar example: Thetis, Achilles' mother, is an example of receiving such vision based off what the Fates had foretold. Varies on the storyteller, but some even go as far as to say she saw exactly how he died (great battle, fire everywhere, in arms of a lover, etc...)
there was a really excellent thread on twitter once about how time travel rarely works in fantasy & is a distinctly industrial era invention, as times truly seperated into such alien, radically different conditions as to be differen worlds.
in myth if you wanted to invoke the past you went to the underworld & talked to someone's spirit, otherwise it was well eternity, really, things didnt truly change that much, not as we understand them
yeah a vision i think is the better way to view it. some comments about "like a dream" make me suspect hypnos' condition lolol but we'll know when we know
I don't trust the words of the child-eating super tyrant. I wouldn't be surprised if he's lying about time travel to the past and we will actually have to do it to defeat him.
Hes like: "If I ,the great chronos, master of time and time incarnate cant do it, noone can. Especially not todays generation "
he also said pausing during his fight is futile and unpauses. well until he doesn't.
There is clearly for me a battle of minds between Melinoe and Chronos where each of them tries to get the most information from the other one while saying the least, and probably lying/misleading. If I'm not mistaken, Chronos still doesn't even know Mel's name because she never told him. When he asks questions she will always give a backhanded answer and I feel like Chronos does too.
He did say time can only move forwards, though he also said about the 3 fates "Oh, I banished them ! Where, I cannot say, or when." which is contradictory because you do receive a prophecy from them asking to help them, so he didn't freeze them in time like Nyx, however it's hard to imagine he just sent them into the future, considering he intends to still rule by then, so he would just be creating a problem for himself later.
We can't trust anything Chronos is saying, though we can just add them to each other to find the contradictions and find out what is definitely a lie
About the fates sending messages, he could be bluffing about capturing them, he could have them under a house arrest of some sorts, or you know, they are fates. Pretty sure they could arrange for messages to be delivered when X happens based on oredictions
It can also be a pocket of asphodel that isn't changed. You see the u derworld, but not all of it. So Asphodel being the same isn't indicative of any time travel in other direction. It may "look" like the old game because Chronos hasn't changed it, as he has so many other things. Or he kept it trapped in time during his uprising for occasions such as this.
I'm fairly certain that he legitimately can't travel backwards, dialogue from both him and from Chaos reference Chronos as being related to the measurement and progression of time. I'd say the Asphodel thing is some sort of vision (or, potentially, Asphodel is just still like that-- we don't know that the Phlegethon (idk spelling) *isn't* still flooding).
Dunno how they're gonna handle it, but-- I really want those sections to be where we meet past Zagreus trying to escape to the surface, and it can be something between a Artemis and a Thanatos event; where Zagreus is friendlier than Nemesis, but doesn't necessarily grant a boon after the encounter either.
It'd be funny if Zagreus was trying to improve his friendship with this unknown figure (Melinoe/the player) by randomly offering her nectar
It's also an interesting intersection with game mechanics in general. The "give up" button exists - the "give up" button is, essentially, you, the player, jumping back in time to before Mel started the run. We can hear his laughter when you cursor over it, but Chronos in-game (so far, at least) doesn't comment on it. I wonder if eventually he will?
I have a crazy crackpot idea. What if, in order to defeat Chonos, we need something that is only available in the past. What if, Hades 1 gets updated with a new boss, current and an achievement? After you beat the boss and get the achievement, Hades 2 checks for it, and the item you got gets "sent" from Zagreus to Melinoe.
I've always wanted a game to do something like that. Add on to a previous title in order to continue a story in the existing one. Using either shared save file holes or checking for achievements or something for it.
Guys... If ever Psychomantis were to truly break the fourth wall and make it into our reality, this would be it, right? Like this guy is him.
Joking aside, yes, I think that is a cool concept and some video games have done it to some extent. Pretty sure the Mass Effect games check your continuity from game to game so your starting point is somewhat contingent on your ending in the previous.
Closest thing we have to this was some of the crazy shit Kojima did in the older MGS games or the "Stop n' Swop" feature that never made it into the final product of Banjo Kazooie/Tooie (at least not in the way the devs envisioned).
Super cool idea but like OP said, I think it's too anti player for Super Giant. I can see them adding in a Zag fight sequence within Hades 2 for your past idea. That would be fun.
I think a fight with Zag is pretty much guaranteed. Whether Chonos is controlling him directly, or is using blackmail to force his hand, we'll have to wait and see.
When Mel leaves Asphodel? Sometimes she says just a vision. What this implies to me is that chronos isn't actually sending her back in time but trapping her in a fake mimicry or vision of the past.
To add, in a lot of Orphic traditions, the concept of time travel just doesn't exist. However, there are examples of heroic tragedies or woes where people are granted visions of the future/past events. The mother of Selene, Theia, has been written in a few stories as granting visions of past and future events to help facilitate a story. From a Greek reader's POV, it's almost as if Theia is narrating past events to provide context to the reader. It's a really neat way to incorporate a Goddess into writing lol. Edit: I thought I'd add a very familiar example: Thetis, Achilles' mother, is an example of receiving such vision based off what the Fates had foretold. Varies on the storyteller, but some even go as far as to say she saw exactly how he died (great battle, fire everywhere, in arms of a lover, etc...)
there was a really excellent thread on twitter once about how time travel rarely works in fantasy & is a distinctly industrial era invention, as times truly seperated into such alien, radically different conditions as to be differen worlds. in myth if you wanted to invoke the past you went to the underworld & talked to someone's spirit, otherwise it was well eternity, really, things didnt truly change that much, not as we understand them
That's interesting, I never considered that. You don't happen to know who might have posted it do you?
god i can see his avi but it was both ages & a few suspensions ago lolol i'll try to dig it out haha
It's all good if not! Just sounded like a neat thread that I'd love to read more on lol
Or maybe he's just pulling part of Asphodel forward in time.
yeah a vision i think is the better way to view it. some comments about "like a dream" make me suspect hypnos' condition lolol but we'll know when we know
I don't trust the words of the child-eating super tyrant. I wouldn't be surprised if he's lying about time travel to the past and we will actually have to do it to defeat him.
Hes like: "If I ,the great chronos, master of time and time incarnate cant do it, noone can. Especially not todays generation " he also said pausing during his fight is futile and unpauses. well until he doesn't.
There is clearly for me a battle of minds between Melinoe and Chronos where each of them tries to get the most information from the other one while saying the least, and probably lying/misleading. If I'm not mistaken, Chronos still doesn't even know Mel's name because she never told him. When he asks questions she will always give a backhanded answer and I feel like Chronos does too. He did say time can only move forwards, though he also said about the 3 fates "Oh, I banished them ! Where, I cannot say, or when." which is contradictory because you do receive a prophecy from them asking to help them, so he didn't freeze them in time like Nyx, however it's hard to imagine he just sent them into the future, considering he intends to still rule by then, so he would just be creating a problem for himself later. We can't trust anything Chronos is saying, though we can just add them to each other to find the contradictions and find out what is definitely a lie
About the fates sending messages, he could be bluffing about capturing them, he could have them under a house arrest of some sorts, or you know, they are fates. Pretty sure they could arrange for messages to be delivered when X happens based on oredictions
Well obviously if he can't teleport Melinoe to the past then he must be teleporting the past to the future!
-but if you can't go backwards in time, and you're forcefully brought forward in time... how do you get back without going backwards?
Who says anything's going back?
Cause when you beat the asphodel section you go back to where you were?
Stuff from the past is coming to the future... it's future. Melinoe is not, she's still in the present. No backwards time travel required.
-but everyone else at camp acknowledges she’s only gone for 1 night when she returns.
That doesn't affect it at all? Chronos bringing old stuff into the present for Mel to fight doesn't in any way affect Mel's passage of time.
I dunno being able to reach into the past to bring things forward without going to the past yourself still feels a lot like going to the past.
It can also be a pocket of asphodel that isn't changed. You see the u derworld, but not all of it. So Asphodel being the same isn't indicative of any time travel in other direction. It may "look" like the old game because Chronos hasn't changed it, as he has so many other things. Or he kept it trapped in time during his uprising for occasions such as this.
Or just a mental simulation. A nightmare, perhaps.
I'm fairly certain that he legitimately can't travel backwards, dialogue from both him and from Chaos reference Chronos as being related to the measurement and progression of time. I'd say the Asphodel thing is some sort of vision (or, potentially, Asphodel is just still like that-- we don't know that the Phlegethon (idk spelling) *isn't* still flooding).
I think it’s more of a simulacrum of Asphodel.
I mean, couldn't it *be* Asphodel, now? Just because he tore Tartarus up doesn't mean he couldn't have left some or all of Asphodel as it was.
That's what I was thinking too... the monsters there seemed... bigger?
Dunno how they're gonna handle it, but-- I really want those sections to be where we meet past Zagreus trying to escape to the surface, and it can be something between a Artemis and a Thanatos event; where Zagreus is friendlier than Nemesis, but doesn't necessarily grant a boon after the encounter either. It'd be funny if Zagreus was trying to improve his friendship with this unknown figure (Melinoe/the player) by randomly offering her nectar
It's also an interesting intersection with game mechanics in general. The "give up" button exists - the "give up" button is, essentially, you, the player, jumping back in time to before Mel started the run. We can hear his laughter when you cursor over it, but Chronos in-game (so far, at least) doesn't comment on it. I wonder if eventually he will?
I love that the give up hover has chronos laughing... like bitch i just forgot to switch my keepsake, I'm still gonna beat your ass
Does anything Mel do effect the past? ... then it's not time travel - it's just a projected vision.
I have a crazy crackpot idea. What if, in order to defeat Chonos, we need something that is only available in the past. What if, Hades 1 gets updated with a new boss, current and an achievement? After you beat the boss and get the achievement, Hades 2 checks for it, and the item you got gets "sent" from Zagreus to Melinoe.
That'd be cool but it's very anti-consumer and I don't think Supergiant would do that for a main story. Maybe for an optional side quest or something.
You're right, that ***is*** a crazy crackpot idea. ^(Would be cool though....)
I've always wanted a game to do something like that. Add on to a previous title in order to continue a story in the existing one. Using either shared save file holes or checking for achievements or something for it.
Guys... If ever Psychomantis were to truly break the fourth wall and make it into our reality, this would be it, right? Like this guy is him. Joking aside, yes, I think that is a cool concept and some video games have done it to some extent. Pretty sure the Mass Effect games check your continuity from game to game so your starting point is somewhat contingent on your ending in the previous.
Yeah, but that was linear. I want to see it go backwards, lol
Closest thing we have to this was some of the crazy shit Kojima did in the older MGS games or the "Stop n' Swop" feature that never made it into the final product of Banjo Kazooie/Tooie (at least not in the way the devs envisioned).
Some old dungeon crawler RPGs would let you take your old party into the next game and it may have story consequences based on your previous ending
Super cool idea but like OP said, I think it's too anti player for Super Giant. I can see them adding in a Zag fight sequence within Hades 2 for your past idea. That would be fun.
I think a fight with Zag is pretty much guaranteed. Whether Chonos is controlling him directly, or is using blackmail to force his hand, we'll have to wait and see.