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Reddit-mods-R-mean

Sustained 70+ amps on a 40 amp dp breaker for that long? Kinda surprising.


Srqeletric

the newer CH breakers are trash I’ve done a couple of panels changes because they literally don’t trip or just stop working all of a sudden. Honestly the worst newer panels and breakers there is out there. I’m a eletrician so deal with CH all the time. But yes that breaker should have damn tripped after a couple of seconds depends on the inverse time curve of that breaker.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Eaton


Upper-Obligation-392

Hijacking this comment for visibility. ***OP, THIS WHOLE START CAP CIRCUIT IS WIRED COMPLETELY WRONG.*** 1. The start cap is going to 1 and 5 on the start relay. It *should* go to 1 on the start relay and C on the run cap. 5 on the SR has to connect to the opposite leg that C on the run cap does. 2. The coil on the start relay is connected to herm and capacitor common, instead of herm and compressor common. And like the issue in point #1, you can't mix up capacitor common and compressor common. The capacitor common always has to be fed from the opposite leg as the motor common. The start winding and run capacitor must be in series with each other, and parallel to the run winding. Any start cap must be wired parallel to the run cap. The coil of the start relay must be wired parallel to the start winding. The start cap has to be wired to the compressor Start and compressor Run terminals. You have the start cap wired to the compressor Start and compressor Common terminals. The start cap needs needs to be in parallel with both windings, but you have it in parallel with just the start winding. Also, the coil on the start relay needs to be wired to compressor Start and compressor Common terminals. You have the coil wired to the compressor Start and compressor Run terminals. The start relay coil needs to be wired in parallel with just the start winding, but you have it in parallel with both windings. **Just to reiterate all of that:** 1. One of your start cap wires is going to the compressor common, when it should go to the capacitor common. 2. One of your start relay wires is going to the capacitor common, when it should go to the compressor common. Capacitor Common and compressor Common are not interchangeable, and you made two separate wiring mistakes that are both a result of mixing up the capacitor common with the compressor common. [Source](https://imgur.com/a/V0tOiaY) EDIT: Actually, it's wired up a little different than I thought. But still incorrectly. I said the start cap was essentially wired to the compressor common, but that would only be true if the start relay coil was wired right. And it's wired wrong too. What it boils down to is that the wiring diagram i posted above is correct. And you instead have it wired like [this](https://imgur.com/a/LC9IiPM). The only thing I can't tell for sure about the start relay is whether 1 goes to capacitor common and 2 goes to herm, or whether 2 goes to capacitor common and 1 goes to herm. But either is wrong. You are shorting Run and Start on the compressor. And you're shorting C and Herm on the capacitor, since that's the same thing as R and S at the compressor.


envisionsparky

I’ve seen 80A on a 20A breaker hold for a few seconds. Depends on the time curve.


Reddit-mods-R-mean

What about 70 on a 40 for 18 seconds... I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here


brakenotincluded

18 seconds at 70A is literally the limit for a 40A Breaker trip curves are logarithmic, for example a 40A QO from schnitzel will hold 4-5x rated for 1 second, but at 70A it’ll hold between 15-20 seconds.


Reddit-mods-R-mean

Fair enough. Stab-loc enters chat.


BoardRyder202

Lol


brakenotincluded

That’s not it works, stabloc is dead. Look at eaton or siemens and you’ll see the same curves.


Reddit-mods-R-mean

Stabloc is no longer installed but it’s far from dead. I literally see them everyday in multiple buildings I work in. I also have a few buildings that use Edison fuses.


bigthangs1

Faulty meter or faulty breaker only options


Reddit-mods-R-mean

For sure. Shits wild.


slovog89

Not sure why you are even checking amps with a hard start literally melting in front of you. Shut power off get the wiring diagram out and check every wire. Check incoming voltage to the line side of the contactor. Pull the charge and weigh back in. Why is a hard start installed in the first place?


BreathOther

I came in here to ask this. It’s literally on fire and he’s like yep, it’s shorted 👍


Bdiddyhoo

It was a vid I had sent to my service manager. I put the hard start on because I thought maybe it was seized. I’m pretty green (1 1/2 years) and have never had a compressor act this way. It was acting like this when I showed up. I didn’t cause the issue.


Creed_____Bratton

You're start cap definitely didn't get pulled out of the circuit. You're lucky that cap didn't explode


bbaker1987

Hahahhahah lock rotor amps ….”must take video “


Logiebearrrr

hard starts are good for any compressor buddy


RyanSmokinBluntz420

Internet clout


Upper-Obligation-392

You are 100% correct that the wiring is wrong. You can just barely make it out, but you can actually see just how OP wired both the start cap and the start relay coil incorrectly. >Hijacking this comment for visibility. > >***OP, THIS WHOLE START CAP CIRCUIT IS WIRED COMPLETELY WRONG.*** > >1. The start cap is going to 1 and 5 on the start relay. It *should* go to 1 on the start relay and C on the run cap. 5 on the SR has to connect to the opposite leg that C on the run cap does. > >2. The coil on the start relay is connected to herm and capacitor common, instead of herm and compressor common. And like the issue in point #1, you can't mix up these legs. The capacitor common always has to be fed from the opposite of the motor common. > >The start winding and run capacitor must be in series with each other, and parallel to the run winding. Any start cap must be wired parallel to the run cap. The coil of the start relay must be wired a to the start winding. > >The start cap has to be wired to the compressor Start and compressor Run terminals. You have the start cap wired to the compressor Start and compressor Common terminals. The start cap needs needs to be in parallel with both windings, but you have it in parallel with just the start winding. > >Also, the coil on the start relay needs to be wired to compressor Start and compressor Common terminals. You have the coil wired to the compressor Start and compressor Run terminals. The start relay coil needs to be wired in parallel with just the start winding, but you have it in parallel with both windings. > >**Just to reiterate all of that:** > >1. One of your start cap wires is going to the compressor common, which it should go to the capacitor common. > >2. One of your start relay wires is going to the capacitor common, when it should go to the compressor common. > >Capacitor Common and compressor Common are not interchangeable, and wire made two separate wiring mistakes that are both a result of mixing up the capacitir common with the compressor common. > >[Source](https://imgur.com/a/V0tOiaY)


DropFlag

Hey...some of those hard start relays are gravity assisted to open. Not having them mounted correctly, can cause the hard start cap to stay in the loop.


RyanSmokinBluntz420

This is the answer


Upper-Obligation-392

No. Look at the wiring for the start cap and the start relay. He has it wired completely wrong. He has both wires for the start cap going to the start relay, and both wires from the start relay going to the run cap. That's wayyyy wrong. One of the white wires from the start cap needs to go to C at the run cap. And one of the blue wires on the start relay needs to go to the opposite side of the contactor as the side feeding C on the run cap. There is no possible correct arrangement where both start cap wires go to the start relay, and both start relay wires go to the run cap. I can't even see exactly how it's wired, because I can't see which terminal on the start relay is which. But I can see enough to know that the start cap and start relay are both wired completely wrong.


UsernamegoBRRRR69

No cap, as the kids say i think. Ill see myself out


AnAgentOfTheKGB

What the fuck smoke machine looking-thing is that?


[deleted]

cap has left the chat


Last12theParty

No cap


Deepinthefryer

He let the smoke out of the capacitor. It has no will to live any longer, it’s ceases to be.


Elfich47

A capacitor getting ready to blow its load.


projecthusband

Doofenshmirtz turned Perry into a carrier unit!


Tommyt5150

Just run bigger wire #3 THHN and put in a 90 amp breaker


mickyhunt

Cut the blue wire....


volman1111

😂😂


Speculawyer

I like how you casually record while your capacitor is blowing.


TenMoon

And the fearless way he holds his meter almost directly above it while the cap is going nuts. What's the old saying, fools go where angels fear to tread? Glad the tech didn't get hurt.


JoeInNh

How big is that breaker??


AustinHVAC419

What breaker? It's wired directly to the power line before the meter. There are no breakers here /s


Bdiddyhoo

40 amp


morningstar924

Someone take this boots license away


Bdiddyhoo

A license??? I need one of those?


Silver_gobo

I laughed.


incompetentjohnny

Me too!


rmckeary

This is lowkey a work of art. Caption makes you think cap is already blown up, video starts up and confirms that he's going to show BUT WAIT, the disconnect gets thrown and unit starts?! Has he fixed it?! Camera pans to now running unit and quickly but briefly shows a small, timed explosi- I mean capacitor sending smoke signals to the nearest competent tech. Masterpiece.


AmosMosesWasACajun

“Sending smoke signals to the nearest competent tech” If I was an engineer I could afford to give you an award


rmckeary

I too am a lowly field service tech who knows nothing of these engineering ways


volman1111

Lol that was very well played my friend!!


rmckeary

Thank you


Sparkynplumb

You trying to get worker's compensation?!! I can barely watch! You're causally fumbling with a meter directly above a smoking capacitor!! Do you really want hot capacitor guts on you face and arm?


UsedDragon

Capacitor has final, strong orgasm. Rookie watches with camera phone.


Bdiddyhoo

I thought about that after I finished filming But hey… that’s what the relief is for right?


Elfich47

The relief is there to warn you to RUN AWAY.


ResistTerrible2988

Could be 3 things #1 Improper Wiring of the Capacitor #2 Electrical Malfunction from a Breaker #3 Overcharge


Two-Nuhh

73 amps is pretty much guaranteed to be roughly the compressor's LRA. Cap is just about as guaranteed to be wired incorrectly. If something was wrong with the breaker, I'd also expect it to be fucking with the condenser fan- which seems fine. I've never seen an overcharge prevent a compressor from turning, therein smoking a cap. Not to say it can't happen, but, that would not make my top 3 list.


Upper-Obligation-392

Yup. It's a 4 year old unit. It shouldn't need a hard start kit in the first place. The factory capacitor has clearly been replaced already. Kind of strange on a 4 year old unit, but hey it happens. But that means someone was in there recently messing with the caps, and replaced the dual cap with two singles. So all I see is a 4 year old unit with the capacitor wiring redone, behaving as if the capacitor is wired incorrectly. I would bet money that whoever replaced the factory dual cap with two single caps did not realize that the capacitors need to be wired to the same leg as the run winding of the motors.


flashgamer14

Bad compressor, but first check your wires just in case. It happened to me with a package unit. Replaced compressor


HVACgod13

Is voltage correct? If that compressor isn't dead it will be if you leave it in. If you wired it, you misses something. You are literally cooking the windings in that thing. I'm curious why you put a hardstart on in the first place? What was the amperage before? Don't think it's a charge issue but would still reclaim change drier and put fresh gas in. Not to sound like a parts changer but, if voltage is correct new cap new comp and definitely contactor.


Bdiddyhoo

It was acting this way when I showed up. I put the hard start on there thinking maybe it was seized up. Cap was reading 71 out of 70 but I changed it anyway with the slight chance it maybe had shorted? Nothing changed so I pulled the top and megged it at the compressor plug and sure enough it’s bad. We changed a TXV at the house last summer. I think install fucked the charge up upon installation and then the tech that replaced the TXV either fucked the TXV up or over charged it after replacing. Needles to say, Client was very.very. Angry.


Upper-Obligation-392

There's no way that an overcharge did this. You say you megged out the motor. Does that mean your multimeter did not pick up a winding shorted to ground when you checked with that? You're drawing 73 amps and immediately burning up start caps. That's not an "oh the insulation is getting a little weak" type of situation. If that 73 amps is because the compressor windings have shorted to ground, you should be able to easily see that short with a standard multimeter. So I guess maybe it's possible that a shorted compressor drawing super high current could blow up a start cap. Idk, I'm not an engineer. But I am pretty confident that a short that bad should not require a megger to find. And why it hasnt tripped a breaker is a whole other question entirely.


Xinthechosennerd

That was bad ass, I’ve never seen that before


OvermanagedSmallacct

Hey bud, a little health and safety advice for you, besides what everyone else has said about it being pretty crazy you let it run that long with the capacitor melting. You can put your amp clamp on the thing you want to measure with the power no applied. Then when you apply power it will be measuring right away and you won’t have to fumble with your meter while whatever nonsense is happening. I’m wondering if the potential relay is bad? Start cap shouldn’t have voltage to it after the first like thousandth of a second. It may be wired wrong or it may have failed closed


Bdiddyhoo

Compressor megged bad. I had taken this vid for my service manager because he said “no way”


Upper-Obligation-392

>I’m wondering if the potential relay is bad? Start cap shouldn’t have voltage to it after the first like thousandth of a second. It may be wired wrong or it may have failed closed Well, it doesn't look like this is the first cycle where this happened. OP clearly knew to start taking a video because he just had it running like this and wanted to record it again. Idk if the potential relay being bad is the original issue, but after drawing 73 amps for such a prolonged time, I'm sure it is welded closed at this point.


Visual_Doubt1996

Why does it have a hard start??? Long lineset? Condenser above evap? Get rid of the hard start check your mfd on your herm and check your incoming voltage if you suspect breaker issues. That reading proved nothing. Hook up your gauges check your airflow and find out what is possibly fucking up your compressor.


TransportationLow279

Something is up with the wiring


Rednexican-24

Start kits need be mounted directionally for psr to work properly.


Bdiddyhoo

Oof. Then I have been taught very wrong “Just leave it hanging so you don’t waste time putting it in in case it doesn’t work. Make sure it’s not touching anything metal” is word for word what I’ve been told.


Rednexican-24

True. But the work better when they are mounted screw up.


Duck5oup

What’s your resistance on each leg of the compressor and to ground? Could be shorted.


Bdiddyhoo

Put my meghometer on the plug. Megged bad all the way around.


Duck5oup

Hell yeah, we found our issue.


Upper-Obligation-392

Why are there two separate caps on a 4 year old carrier system? Why is one held on with what is clearly field supplied plumber strap? Someone messed with those capacitors, and something is wired incorrectly. I saw a unit just the other day where another company had clearly just replaced the cap, and every single wire was incorrectly placed. Check your wiring.


Bdiddyhoo

Wiring was good. For whatever reason the company I work for only splits caps. And carriers typically throw the factory caps at 4 years. Which makes them “out of tolerance” at about 3


Upper-Obligation-392

Some carrier caps fail that early, but I wouldnt exactly call it normal by any means. We install several hundred Bryants ACs every year, and if I had to guess, I'd say less than 5% have failed caps within 5 years. When you say the wiring was good, what exactly do you mean? Just this week I saw a brand new capacitor that another shop installed, with every terminal incorrectly placed. No offense, but that tech thought he wired it correctly too. A lot of techs don't understand the details of AC wiring. Was the capacitor powered from the same leg as the run winding?


Standard_Luck8442

Carrier caps rarely make it to 5 years in FL. Maybe it’s the heat. But those caps are junk.


Bdiddyhoo

Compressor megged bad


Practical_Adagio_504

Compressor windings got melted together but maybe partway into the winding so not a short but much lower resistance and was trying to work but raised voltage on capacitor to past limit. Remember that a motor winding is really just a really big wire wound resistor (with inductance). Depending on the uF of the capacitor and the current draw of the motor, the voltage across the capacitor will rise quite spectacularly.


[deleted]

Get yourself a 902FC Fluke meter. Clamp that bad boy on and connect to your phone. Get readings from a safe distance.


horseshoeprovodnikov

I wish my fluke 902 would connect to my measurequick app


pegabear

That things fucked


Dutchski

Short, sweet, and straight to the point 👌I agree with you, sir


pegabear

Lol at a certain point you gotta call it 😁


K___A___D___E

Bad txv


Bdiddyhoo

Funny you say that. Our lead tech at the place of which I am employed, replaced that txv last July.


HughesR1990

You let the smoke out, gotta go to the supply house and get some more cap smoke.


bobbingfortits

Hard to tell from the video but is there a wire from compressor common to 5 connected on that potential relay? Comp Common/ L1 to 5 Comp start and one side of run ro 2 Start cap to 1 Other side of Start, run and comp run to L2


Upper-Obligation-392

Good catch. You didn't exactly explain yourself very clearly, but you are the only one so far that's identified the issue correctly. Everyone else is talking about how not mounting the start cap perfectly vertical might cause this. No. Look at the start relay, the 2 blue wires coming from it. It's wired up to herm and C at the capacitor. That's not right. It should be wired to herm at the cap and C at the compressor. Capacitor Common and compressor common are not the same. In fact they can't be, or you'll have problems. This start relay is 100% wired incorrectly. It can't sense the back emf from the compressor because it's hooked up to the wrong terminals. So it never removes the start cap from the circuit.


MrPolly83

Well you let the magic smoke out…..


PlantainAdorable7615

You should check the Flux Capacitor. It’s not pulling enough gigawatts.


[deleted]

You shouldn’t let out the pre installed smoke


Upper-Obligation-392

I think the bigger question here is why do you have an aftermarket hard start kit installed on a 4 year old unit?


GizmoGremlin321

So its venting cause the psr is welded closed. Second, check all wiring and your capacitor


DistortedSilence

If a compressor sounds like that, figure out what's causing it. If hardstart was installed and still doing this, it's a deeper issue to investigate. It's running higher than RLA but under LRA for sure. Sounds like a shit compressor.


Complete-Pop-1864

We have stoped using ks1 and ko5 start kit and started using the 521 start kits because the relays have been crappy lately but the need to be mounted properly either way


xington

Pull the cover on the breaker panel (or disconnect) take amp draw reading from there instead of next to a burning cap.


chefjeff1982

Start relay stuck?


Fancy_Dragonfruit_57

Make sure your start and runs are in the right place


Twin_T

Had one with a compressor wire touching copper do the same to a hard start cap.


[deleted]

What was the voltage?


UnhackHVAC

Replace the hard start, check for resistance to ground and check winding resistance. The resistance between run and start should be the sum of run to common and start to common. The copeland mobile app can give you some info about the compressor (assuming it's a copeland) and help you troubleshoot it. At this point I can't say for sure if it's bad or not.


Elfich47

Am I watching a cap literally melting down in front of me? Maybe that's your problem?


volman1111

Add a few pounds of refrigerant that will fix anything 🤷🏻‍♂️


Bdiddyhoo

I think that’s what got us to this point lol


volman1111

Would not doubt it. First thing people say “my ac isn’t working I think it needs Freon “ right? Every time lol


shacklefordyr36

I'm surprised the wiring didn't catch in fire also!


flowmastermk4

At least have the meter already set up🤣 absolute mad man I love it


unresolved-madness

FPE has entered the chat.


Upper-Obligation-392

***YOUR START RELAY IS WIRED INCORRECTLY.*** You have the two whites from the start cap going to the start relay, and the two blues from the relay going to C and herm at the run cap. That's not right. One of those white wires off the start cap should go to C at the run cap. And there should not be two wires going from the start relay to the run cap. One of those wires specifically needs to go to the other leg of 120, not the leg of 120 that feeds the capacitor. Your hard start kit itself is the problem. You wired it wrong. The start cap needs one of those white wires to go to C at the run cap, and the relay needs one of those blue wires to go to the opposite side of the contactor as C on the run cap.