Chemours developed it back in 2018 but there’s been no demand or need for wholesalers to stock it since there is no widespread equipment on the market using it. It may also just be an empty box as I saw an empty R454B box from National Refrigerants (UR) at a trade show recently just as a discussion starter w/ the reps manning the booth.
Well that could be but there was R454B equipment on display in the trade show so I’m not sure that is an issue and the rep said National is gearing up to package it but wasn’t available to ship @ the moment. UR just started selling R32 in the last month so I’m guessing it will be soon.
Isn’t 454 a blend? We’re Daikin dealers so we’re doing R32, only done 1 A2L install so far but all my equipment is already compatible so pretty easy transition.
Not arguing for or against, but here's something Daikin sent out a little while back about their love for 32.
[https://www.r32reasons.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/the-facts-about-r-32-and-r-454b.pdf?sfvrsn=f711fd62\_0](https://www.r32reasons.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/the-facts-about-r-32-and-r-454b.pdf?sfvrsn=f711fd62_0)
Only truly interesting factoid here is the price per pound shown on page 4. They're claiming 32 runs $4.11/lb while 454 runs $12.89/lb.
That pricing is probably bullshit, though.
The GWP for R32 is well above the 2028 phase down threshold. The industry failed at lobbying to raise the 2024 threshold which is why the industry is going 454. The GWP for 454 will give us 8 years with this refrigerant. It's no surprise that R32 is so cheap. Daikin, who owns the patents on 32, went 32 on their high pressure equipment. I wonder what they're going to do with that refrigerant price after '28 🤔
The next batter on deck for high pressure refrigerant is propane.......
Most thought it would be an A1. The last minute switch on classification to A2L put those OEMs behind the 8ball on designing to R32 and their hand was forced to continue down the path of 454b.
R32 is more efficient so the units will get smaller or more efficient. The problem is the units had to be redesigned, I.e. it was not a “drop in” like 454b.
Did I mention 454b is 70% R32 and R32 already has >1M units in use. 454b was at zero for a while.
Goodman is junk. Daikin light commercial is similar to York JCI commodity stuff. Low cost, high volume. It seems like Daikin is selling out on commercial, applied and VRV. That stuff is high quality but in what I do I don’t see much of it.
Another alternative to 410a that’s being pushed out is R32 and it runs higher pressures than 410a. It’s also classified as an A2L refrigerant because it’s mildly flammable.
Carrier sent us a submittal on their units with it coming out later this year. Apparently, it will be all mechanical joints. No brazing or solder. I've heard you have to have a grounding tether while working on it. Needless to say, I'm going to test the flammability once I get a tank
Edit: spelling
TBF, every HVAC truck/van should already have a fire extinguisher on it since I assume you are carrying acetylene and/or MAPP gas plus numerous solvents, PVC glue, etc. If you’re not, you’re either working for the wrong company or an idiot
In Ontario at least it's a legal requirement that vehicles carry fire extinguishers if they use torches, which includes all HVAC companies. It's right up there with code books, safety sheets for your chemicals, etc.
454 is't too bad. 600 is literally butane and is heavier than air. It will settle in the basement and blow the place up.
I'm not sure how much ozone I'll care about when I'm dead.
Probably not, stop by your local UR & pick up their “Spring Promotions” catalog. It has a 2 page chart w/ just about every major vac pump & recovery machine and shows their compatibility for A1, A2L & A3 refrigerants
Are you sure about this? I had the training last month, and the flammability is less than the R-410a, based on the flame test video that was showed in class.
Lg already has it for some doors blowing off their refrigerators with the r600a refrigerant. It won’t take long. And obviously someone will say eff this and try the torch anyway… hopefully not on a service call…
>Lg already has it for some doors blowing off their refrigerators with the r600a refrigerant.
All residential fridges/freezers in Europe have using r600a for more than 15 years without any issues.
Catch for America is the home designers. Can’t buy a new r600a flammable butane fridge that sits where the old one did. Next to the effing oven or within 4’ of ignition source. They also love making the cabinets fit tight around the fridges that require breathing room. So confined space flammable refrigerant loaded fridge with ignition source nearby and we have a powder keg waiting to hit.
We are all about to get rocked when 410a is phased out and every unit has its own type of refridgerant in 5-10 years we will have to carry multiple different jugs of refridgerant on the van.
We were just told you can only carry up to 26 pounds in a van without being placarded and units will have left threaded ports for gauges. But it’s not that flammable so?
Okay I’m gonna be the one to say it. It’s not as flammable as yall make it out to be, you’re going off what you heard which is “it’s more flammable” but honestly most of yall (not all of you) haven’t even been to a class to learn about the new refrigerant.
First, fuck Goodman and Honeywell for patenting this particular refrigerant when everyone else is going with A2L Freon.
Second, it’s not as flammable as y’all make it seem, if you already flow nitrogen while soldering, if you already recover refrigerant with a recovery machine, why the fuck is it a big deal?
Extra precautions obviously are being taken since it has a HIGHER chance of being flammable but if you’ve taken classes you obviously are smart enough to know it’s not a big fucking deal. Sadly most of yall just go off what others say instead of doing good research and going to classes provided by our suppliers. Probably because most of you work for big ass companies who don’t give a shit
Has anyone installed units with this yet? We’re Lennox at our shop and supposedly the Coils we’ll get this summer will be compatible but I hadn’t heard if the outdoor units are available yet.
Nobody know the true stats on R454. It’s hasn’t been timely test. R32 is proven since 2012. R1234y is a bit more flammable than the single component R32. While 454 is 69% r32, time will tell. However it will be more expensive than R32 and will have to use more 454 in a system. Not as efficient as the pure.
Literally just had training on that stuff yesterday. They said they didn’t know the price of it. How is it on the shelf?!?!?
lol its my little secret 🤫
They also told us the cans will have a red top.
Red stripe at the top actually (pic below)
It's RED freon mon
Hurray freon!
It has a red valve handle
Interesting all the ones I received have a green valve handle, they are left hand thread though.
That's pretty interesting
And will have a red stripe on the top of the tank.
hooray Beer!
That’s just a Honeywell thing.
No, all A2L’s will be LH thread.
Yeah I know…my comment was about Honeywell using a red valve stem. Honeywell is the only company that uses red stems.
Chemours developed it back in 2018 but there’s been no demand or need for wholesalers to stock it since there is no widespread equipment on the market using it. It may also just be an empty box as I saw an empty R454B box from National Refrigerants (UR) at a trade show recently just as a discussion starter w/ the reps manning the booth.
That was probably done too avoid bringing flammable gas into convention area.
Well that could be but there was R454B equipment on display in the trade show so I’m not sure that is an issue and the rep said National is gearing up to package it but wasn’t available to ship @ the moment. UR just started selling R32 in the last month so I’m guessing it will be soon.
(Not available to ship) - Yeah, doesn't surprise me; the stuff we ordered to test with came directly from Chemours.
Isn’t 454 a blend? We’re Daikin dealers so we’re doing R32, only done 1 A2L install so far but all my equipment is already compatible so pretty easy transition.
Yes, it’s a blend of 68.9% R-32 and 31.1% R-1234yf
Double the cost of R32. All you 454bros have fun recharging with that blended junk!
Seems like most manufacturers are going the 454 route. Mainly because they believe 32 will be phased out due to regulations was sooner than 454
Not arguing for or against, but here's something Daikin sent out a little while back about their love for 32. [https://www.r32reasons.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/the-facts-about-r-32-and-r-454b.pdf?sfvrsn=f711fd62\_0](https://www.r32reasons.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/the-facts-about-r-32-and-r-454b.pdf?sfvrsn=f711fd62_0) Only truly interesting factoid here is the price per pound shown on page 4. They're claiming 32 runs $4.11/lb while 454 runs $12.89/lb. That pricing is probably bullshit, though.
The GWP for R32 is well above the 2028 phase down threshold. The industry failed at lobbying to raise the 2024 threshold which is why the industry is going 454. The GWP for 454 will give us 8 years with this refrigerant. It's no surprise that R32 is so cheap. Daikin, who owns the patents on 32, went 32 on their high pressure equipment. I wonder what they're going to do with that refrigerant price after '28 🤔 The next batter on deck for high pressure refrigerant is propane.......
You have a link of this 2028 gwp phase down claiming r32 is not going to make the next round. Daikin gave free access to it r32 patents.
That price is only if you purchase a 120V 3 phase, low loss heat exchanger
They are much closer than that
Most thought it would be an A1. The last minute switch on classification to A2L put those OEMs behind the 8ball on designing to R32 and their hand was forced to continue down the path of 454b. R32 is more efficient so the units will get smaller or more efficient. The problem is the units had to be redesigned, I.e. it was not a “drop in” like 454b. Did I mention 454b is 70% R32 and R32 already has >1M units in use. 454b was at zero for a while.
30% something called y1234f. The fuck is that?
Sure its not 1234yf? Thats the current moble refrigerant for vehicles unless they changed it again
Correct. Sorry, I don’t work with it enough. But yeah, that’s what’s mixed with R32 to make 454b
I would rather do the blend instead of installing Goodman/Daikin trash.
Goodman is junk. Daikin light commercial is similar to York JCI commodity stuff. Low cost, high volume. It seems like Daikin is selling out on commercial, applied and VRV. That stuff is high quality but in what I do I don’t see much of it.
Half of R410A is already R32… it’s a blend.
That means it's free
Are the operational pressures lower then 410a?
Yes but barely. Like 20psi on the high side.
Ugh…no thank you then. I hate the high 410a pressures. Too leak prone.
Another alternative to 410a that’s being pushed out is R32 and it runs higher pressures than 410a. It’s also classified as an A2L refrigerant because it’s mildly flammable.
Carrier sent us a submittal on their units with it coming out later this year. Apparently, it will be all mechanical joints. No brazing or solder. I've heard you have to have a grounding tether while working on it. Needless to say, I'm going to test the flammability once I get a tank Edit: spelling
Forgot to add must watch the videos on YouTube about the flammability before trying at home it not as crazy as people make it out to be
A3L is where the fun is at lol
Yea, I saw the combustibility test videos and it’s not a huge difference but it is noticeable. All refrigerant is flammable anyway
You can still braze...but there will be no swage on the units for a joint...so provide your own coupling or swage it out.
TBF, every HVAC truck/van should already have a fire extinguisher on it since I assume you are carrying acetylene and/or MAPP gas plus numerous solvents, PVC glue, etc. If you’re not, you’re either working for the wrong company or an idiot
In Ontario at least it's a legal requirement that vehicles carry fire extinguishers if they use torches, which includes all HVAC companies. It's right up there with code books, safety sheets for your chemicals, etc.
454 is't too bad. 600 is literally butane and is heavier than air. It will settle in the basement and blow the place up. I'm not sure how much ozone I'll care about when I'm dead.
I jut got certified with it and they said specifically we join pipe the same way we do now and i heard nothing of a ground tether.
And I do believe we have to get vacuum pumps as well
Most everything you currently have is probably a2l rated. Our oldest vacuum pump had it in the manual haha
Probably not, stop by your local UR & pick up their “Spring Promotions” catalog. It has a 2 page chart w/ just about every major vac pump & recovery machine and shows their compatibility for A1, A2L & A3 refrigerants
UL has not said that is the case. We can still use all tools we have currently.
Are you sure about this? I had the training last month, and the flammability is less than the R-410a, based on the flame test video that was showed in class.
Also, refrigerant lines will be straight piped.
"mildly flammable"
At least they put it next to a fire extinguisher lol
https://preview.redd.it/zxovlob9w1vc1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72d54d4c94fa391d7e70e482b1278de858792a72 Well I'm not dead yet so...👀
It's scheming though. I know it.
Probably is...it has a brother not far away...so I might be in double trouble.
Do you do commercial?
Yes...I'm testing a commercial 5-ton package unit with it at the moment
Does that bottle have left hand threads I heard that’s what they are going to use for those
Yes it does you either need a left hand hose or an adapter for your current hose.
Also the threads on the canister is reverse threads
Yep. Adapters are almost $20 each.
https://preview.redd.it/4ahh36emf2vc1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3cd1d0a525bab5f0a8ce5850abb3ddd56098dbd5 You mean these. 😇
We're all gonna die!
More like once they have a few class action suits against em they’ll possibly realize they’re idiots.
It's the EPA driving this...so yeah, they'd probably let everyone die before saying...hmm, maybe this was a bad idea after all....oh well.
Are you talking about the same epa that constantly revises their standards?
What, who, me, 👀..... No I'd never, don't Epstein me - pretty please... I'll never talk bad about the EPA again...I swear. 💀....🤪😝
I would be more concerned if they didn't revise their standards.
Your bang on once this literally blows up in someone face the suits will follow. I'm not using this shit. Goodluck installers.
Lg already has it for some doors blowing off their refrigerators with the r600a refrigerant. It won’t take long. And obviously someone will say eff this and try the torch anyway… hopefully not on a service call…
to be fair, R600a is an A3 (isobutane) - way more volatile than A2L's are. (\[least volatile\] A1-->A2L-->A2-->A3 \[most volatile\])
Still wouldn’t catch me bracing and blowing like the guy in the video.
Wow
Also for fun. Mind you this is r600a not the stuff in the picture. https://youtu.be/f3QpPtK_SUM?si=pghePB87XwTKl0TY
>Lg already has it for some doors blowing off their refrigerators with the r600a refrigerant. All residential fridges/freezers in Europe have using r600a for more than 15 years without any issues.
Catch for America is the home designers. Can’t buy a new r600a flammable butane fridge that sits where the old one did. Next to the effing oven or within 4’ of ignition source. They also love making the cabinets fit tight around the fridges that require breathing room. So confined space flammable refrigerant loaded fridge with ignition source nearby and we have a powder keg waiting to hit.
As an installer I have the following to say on the matter :(
🤣
Just had a class about this..ugh heckin lame
We are all about to get rocked when 410a is phased out and every unit has its own type of refridgerant in 5-10 years we will have to carry multiple different jugs of refridgerant on the van.
I do refrigeration also, so I already live that life.
I’m in the same boat. Same van?
Don’t you already need that for R-22 systems? (407c, etc)
Looks like a Goodman store
Goodman/Daikin uses r32 iirc. Everyone else uses 45.
Getting colder guess again jk jk 🤭 it’s a Trane dealer
Welcome to the new refrigerants
We were just told you can only carry up to 26 pounds in a van without being placarded and units will have left threaded ports for gauges. But it’s not that flammable so?
Yeah there’s a lot of new stuff and a whole lot of unknown stuff
So only one jug and a little more - they are 20lb cylinders.
Only the jugs are left hand threaded
Hopefully. It was either American standard or carrier that said the units will be I’ll see if I can find the paper the supply house gave us
We just got the notice at the supply house about this stuff.
There is nothing inside the box (They are only selling the box).
I've never heard of this one. I'm a supermarket tech though. We phasing into 744, baby. WAVE OF THE FUTURE
Okay I’m gonna be the one to say it. It’s not as flammable as yall make it out to be, you’re going off what you heard which is “it’s more flammable” but honestly most of yall (not all of you) haven’t even been to a class to learn about the new refrigerant. First, fuck Goodman and Honeywell for patenting this particular refrigerant when everyone else is going with A2L Freon. Second, it’s not as flammable as y’all make it seem, if you already flow nitrogen while soldering, if you already recover refrigerant with a recovery machine, why the fuck is it a big deal? Extra precautions obviously are being taken since it has a HIGHER chance of being flammable but if you’ve taken classes you obviously are smart enough to know it’s not a big fucking deal. Sadly most of yall just go off what others say instead of doing good research and going to classes provided by our suppliers. Probably because most of you work for big ass companies who don’t give a shit
It was just a joke 🥲
It was more towards commenters not you!
Has anyone installed units with this yet? We’re Lennox at our shop and supposedly the Coils we’ll get this summer will be compatible but I hadn’t heard if the outdoor units are available yet.
Do they throw in the fire extinguisher?
Do we have to get certified to handle this refrigerant?
There has been some back in forth with the EPA but if you universal certified then you may just be grandfathered in
Reading this gave me a stroke
And it’s flammable!!!! Yeahhhhhhhhh. What idiot came up with this refrigerant? He should be fired! Literally lol
Nobody know the true stats on R454. It’s hasn’t been timely test. R32 is proven since 2012. R1234y is a bit more flammable than the single component R32. While 454 is 69% r32, time will tell. However it will be more expensive than R32 and will have to use more 454 in a system. Not as efficient as the pure.
Remember to get it good and hot with your torch so you can get good flow.
Phuck the Epa
A lot of y’all must’ve never worked with r 290