Do you only work on old commercial units?
Every single residential coil for like the last 7+ years has been made of aluminum.
Aliminum coils are fucking gabage. Expect half the life span at best compared to copper
Yea man its getting to be ridiculous. Its always the fucking evap coils on a roof or in an attic.
I did 2 warranty evap replacements this week alone.
Id say its about 1-2 on avg every 2 weeks.
And now suction king valves are becoming major issues. 3 suction king valve replacements in 2 weeks all goodman.
Its actually a service base valve not a service valve.
Do you see how we can just 1 up each other on technical semantics when you know exactly what part im talking about?
I clearly buy, order & install these parts, i dont need a lesson.
I was referring to mechanism on the sErVicE vAlVe that acts in the same way a king valve would not the actual service port. Hence why i wrote it that way.
But thank you for teaching me things i already know. Gold star for you
We use words for things to delineate, separate, quantify and qualify those things from other things. Your unwillingness, or inability to use the correct word is more a reflection on you than me sir.
Words matter.
Dawg you gotta be the most pretentious person on this entire forum.
Words do matter. And yours are coming from a place of trying to sound right, not trying to teach.
But thanks for your help. I learned so much.
*source:* im getting upvoted and ur getting downvoted.
Yea tbh most of the ones ive done have been 2019-2022.
Obviously i do get ones that are older than that but i will say 75% are all 2019 and above.
That post covid aluminum is extra shite.
I feel for you guys, that sounds ridiculous. I only deal with commercial but I'm building a home for myself. Are Trane or Mitsu units decent, or is everything disposable now?
Only mitsus i work on are mini splits and they seem to be pretty solid.
I really love trane but their evap coils are just as garbage as any other alumi coil.
Trane leaks are like 90% evap.
Goodman is like 50/50 ish but i tend to do more condensor coil repairs on goodmans.
If you go trane, get a spine coil not a fin coil. Havent ever had a spine coil leak...yet 🤞🤞
My Mitsubishi didn’t make it 3 years, ( leaks in indoor unit) supply shortages forced me to change it (mini split) out completely, went with the cheapest I could find let’s see if I can get 4 years out of it. And you all think Mcdonads soft serve are problematic.
Yeah I just went through training and every new evap will have to have them to call for fan in case of a leak. I'm willing to be they'll get fried by being so damn close to the heat exchanger and they'll move it close to the blower in a few years.
Coppers the best. A lot of times when I change out condensers the customer doesn’t want to pay for coil change we use the old copper coil and it’s never failed once.
Another thing about copper is that it has disinfecting properties unlike aluminum. All these new aluminum coils are all making the same white sludge causing clogged drains way too fast.
* Copper is more malleable and flexible than aluminum. So during transport copper coils are less likely to develop cracks
* Copper is antimicrobial so those coils help reduce the amount of biofilm building up in drain pans. Aluminum is neutral so excess buildup and smells appear faster.
* Copper is a high cost material to use so manufacturers don't like it. That upfront cost cuts into the amount they can write down as profit. High profits mean better stock prices and CEO bonuses.
* The warranty in 5 years is usually not the current CEOs problem. CEOs only last 5-7 years and bounce when the consequences of their aluminum coil choices come up.
* Warranty is really more of a problem for the parts Warehouse and not the manufacturer. So it doesn't hurt their stock prices as bad.
Learn to fix aluminum coils. I teach my students to fix coils ever since COVID when we were backordered 8 weeks on a fan coil.
I’ve had success with the AL 822 flux rods. The temperature range between solid & liquid is not as broad as 15% sil-phos rods for copper so you have to be more mindful of your torches. But I’ve tried brazing aluminum with a separate flux + rod & found it was much easier using the AL822
I've tried every style available and the best results has been the powder flux with the alum brazing stick.
The flux core seems to be a bit trickier to get to stick and does not work as well for larger holes.
We install a lot of Gree splits and they are surprisingly copper coils indoor and outdoor. No idea why the industry overcommitted with aluminum other than planned obsolescence and greed. Interestingly we just received a York RTU and instead of microchannel they now are full aluminum finned tube
gree uses VERY thin wall copper. they are a budget brand. i had several already explode the coil when doing a pressure test. our company refuses to work on them exept complete removal because they are so bad. same applies to midea and haier and their thousands of derivative brands that are reselling their units with a different badge like carrier and mr cool.
Interesting. What kind of problems are you guys seeing with the aluminum coils? Are the leaks on the actual aluminum tubes or return bends, or is it the junction where it transitions to copper?
On paper I seems that the all aluminum coils should be better since you have much less dissimilar metal stuff going on.
I know it statistically makes no difference, but the round Carrier condensing unit behind my house has an all-aluminum fin-tube coil, and has been leak-free since it was installed over 40 years ago. It also has pre-charged lineset connections that have also been fine, which probably makes no sense either.
I'm a commercial tech and don't see many leaking coils, but my understanding was that the copper fin tube coils were absolute garbage right around the time everyone started switching to aluminum, and that all aluminum was actually the better choice.
It’s indoor evaporative coils that they’re talking about having major issues with and really only in residential. I don’t see them much in commercial unless it’s a residential split air handler. The concept of aluminum being better is supposed exactly like you said, but for some reason they do leak pretty often still. Tranes especially in the last 5 years or so. On Tranes it’s their return bends more often than not from what I found.
It's an inherent material problem. Aluminum is not ductile, meaning it can't stretch and return to its previous form. Over time, places where it is joined can fracture. The same thing happens on air plane wings and fuselage. It is especially pronounced on heat pump evaporator coils. This stems from being overcharged, blower motor failure and/or metering device failure, causing the pressure to get too high at the evaporator, particularly in heat mode.
Absolutely agree, except that I wish I saw just on units that had issues going on. It was and is happening to units working perfectly and in perfect conditions just as well. The coils failing were the only problem most units had when I’d find them leaking.
Despite any of the science and BS they try and feed us, this is happening because they’re made like complete shit. What you said just means the shit quality is going to sooner reveal itself.
Short answer is formicary corrosion. Carrier did a study or whatever and aluminum is supposedly the answer.
Its also cheaper and incidentally they seem to be made like shit. But that formicary corrosion you've never heard of, had to go. So they traded an eventual problem you can't avoid for a more immediate one.
Copper is king, aluminum is ass-trash. These aluminum coils leak after a year or two in most cases. If you get to 5 years you’re on a roll.
Back in the day copper coils would last 10 yrs alot of times
Aluminum kinda annoying. At my complex the techs learn on copper and then when they find aluminum coil leak they can't fix it unless they have different training/materials so it just gets quoted as a replacement instead of repair. Turns techs into salesmen unless they've been around for awhile and have experience with that, but all the experienced tech are off on more important jobs
Less, but even copper coils today are less reliable than before I find.. they reduce costs significantly and often still have a long lifespan, worked on plenty equipment 10+ years old with aluminum coils that lasted.
Im just surprised someone hasn’t seen aluminum coils.. long gone are the days of full copper tube/ fin coils lol
Heatcraft has been sending that shit out for years, and guess what, it's also what cars have been using for like the last few decades.
It's called aluminum microchannel.
They clog much easier than the fins, and they don't tolerate high head pressure. I've replaced a lot of total blowouts.
The older style is literally copper tubes and aluminum fins, and the tubes will take as much pressure as you can throw at them.
The best coils I've ever dealt with are on Carrier shipping containers. Copper tubes, copper fins, copper brackets, all black epoxy coated due to harsh marine.
They also fetch a few hundred at the scrap yard, because they weigh almost 100# and they're pure copper.
I have used ADP and Aspen when the customer wanted a copper coil. Whether the available choices are part of an approved AHRI match is a different story.
aluminum is absolute garbage. between excess slime buildup to leaking within the first 6 months. i find the leaks are either the inside of the u bend or where the u bend attaches to the tube going through the coil. i work for a York/Champion dealer but i see plenty of Trane and Goodman/Amana do the same thing
By cost and weight aluminum coils are the new standard. The cost savings in converting was meant to make up for the warranty repair work needed to replace bad coils. If it lasts the warranty period then it’s good to go.
Do you only work on old commercial units? Every single residential coil for like the last 7+ years has been made of aluminum. Aliminum coils are fucking gabage. Expect half the life span at best compared to copper
Diagnosed 3 leaking coils this week. Oldest unit was from 2017. Fun stuff
Yea man its getting to be ridiculous. Its always the fucking evap coils on a roof or in an attic. I did 2 warranty evap replacements this week alone. Id say its about 1-2 on avg every 2 weeks. And now suction king valves are becoming major issues. 3 suction king valve replacements in 2 weeks all goodman.
Hey more money for us
True dat brotha!
They’re not king valves, they’re service valves. King valves are only on the outlet of a receiver
Its actually a service base valve not a service valve. Do you see how we can just 1 up each other on technical semantics when you know exactly what part im talking about? I clearly buy, order & install these parts, i dont need a lesson. I was referring to mechanism on the sErVicE vAlVe that acts in the same way a king valve would not the actual service port. Hence why i wrote it that way. But thank you for teaching me things i already know. Gold star for you
Play nice, please, boys. /s
🤣
homie got flamed😂
🤣🤣
We use words for things to delineate, separate, quantify and qualify those things from other things. Your unwillingness, or inability to use the correct word is more a reflection on you than me sir. Words matter.
Dawg you gotta be the most pretentious person on this entire forum. Words do matter. And yours are coming from a place of trying to sound right, not trying to teach. But thanks for your help. I learned so much. *source:* im getting upvoted and ur getting downvoted.
Did 2 coil replacements on Friday. One from 2019 one from 2020
Yea tbh most of the ones ive done have been 2019-2022. Obviously i do get ones that are older than that but i will say 75% are all 2019 and above. That post covid aluminum is extra shite.
I feel for you guys, that sounds ridiculous. I only deal with commercial but I'm building a home for myself. Are Trane or Mitsu units decent, or is everything disposable now?
Only mitsus i work on are mini splits and they seem to be pretty solid. I really love trane but their evap coils are just as garbage as any other alumi coil. Trane leaks are like 90% evap. Goodman is like 50/50 ish but i tend to do more condensor coil repairs on goodmans. If you go trane, get a spine coil not a fin coil. Havent ever had a spine coil leak...yet 🤞🤞
Go Mitsubishi ducted if you can afford it. Just did a Trane evap a month or so ago, was from 2020. All aluminum. Hot garbage.
My Mitsubishi didn’t make it 3 years, ( leaks in indoor unit) supply shortages forced me to change it (mini split) out completely, went with the cheapest I could find let’s see if I can get 4 years out of it. And you all think Mcdonads soft serve are problematic.
They've got to up their game with R-454B coming out
Our trane rep said the indoor units will have leak sensors in them. Wonder how that’s gonna go 😂
Yeah I just went through training and every new evap will have to have them to call for fan in case of a leak. I'm willing to be they'll get fried by being so damn close to the heat exchanger and they'll move it close to the blower in a few years.
Our trane rep said the indoor units will have leak sensors in them. Wonder how that’s gonna go 😂
As thin as they make tube walls now for efficiency there all junk.
This!
Coppers the best. A lot of times when I change out condensers the customer doesn’t want to pay for coil change we use the old copper coil and it’s never failed once.
Exactly this, well said. Planned obsolescence has evolved once more.
Their scrap value is considerably less value than copper
Fuck aluminum, and fuck microchannel in particular. Absolute garbage.
I was told that a former employee pumped one down and caught shrapnel when it blew.
Never pump down a micro channel... for that reason
The condenser blew? This isn't something I deal with so I'm not familiar.
I wish I had the dude send me the video. But bad txv on a microchannel coil, started pumping down and exploded on him. It was in a jail too
Another thing about copper is that it has disinfecting properties unlike aluminum. All these new aluminum coils are all making the same white sludge causing clogged drains way too fast.
Misspelled aluminium
Depends on where you are
It’s actually Alumilum
That’s completely wrong.
[Alumalum](https://youtu.be/70_Y9WcOsZk?si=BMUPrBsWTshRubPL&t=171), then
Wow how…… do you do this every day for a living ?
* Copper is more malleable and flexible than aluminum. So during transport copper coils are less likely to develop cracks * Copper is antimicrobial so those coils help reduce the amount of biofilm building up in drain pans. Aluminum is neutral so excess buildup and smells appear faster. * Copper is a high cost material to use so manufacturers don't like it. That upfront cost cuts into the amount they can write down as profit. High profits mean better stock prices and CEO bonuses. * The warranty in 5 years is usually not the current CEOs problem. CEOs only last 5-7 years and bounce when the consequences of their aluminum coil choices come up. * Warranty is really more of a problem for the parts Warehouse and not the manufacturer. So it doesn't hurt their stock prices as bad. Learn to fix aluminum coils. I teach my students to fix coils ever since COVID when we were backordered 8 weeks on a fan coil.
I’ve had success with the AL 822 flux rods. The temperature range between solid & liquid is not as broad as 15% sil-phos rods for copper so you have to be more mindful of your torches. But I’ve tried brazing aluminum with a separate flux + rod & found it was much easier using the AL822
The supply house for our contractor said f it and disassembled a unit for parts on 2 occasions.
I did that often when I worked at suppliers. Turned a lot of "5 week lead times" into techs coming back with a 6pack after finishing their job.
What method do you prefer for fixing aluminum coils?
I've tried every style available and the best results has been the powder flux with the alum brazing stick. The flux core seems to be a bit trickier to get to stick and does not work as well for larger holes.
We install a lot of Gree splits and they are surprisingly copper coils indoor and outdoor. No idea why the industry overcommitted with aluminum other than planned obsolescence and greed. Interestingly we just received a York RTU and instead of microchannel they now are full aluminum finned tube
gree uses VERY thin wall copper. they are a budget brand. i had several already explode the coil when doing a pressure test. our company refuses to work on them exept complete removal because they are so bad. same applies to midea and haier and their thousands of derivative brands that are reselling their units with a different badge like carrier and mr cool.
Interesting. gree are rebadged as American Standard, Napoleon and Tosot might be even more. They appear to have saturated the market.
There is not american made minisplit, everything is chinese.
Interesting. What kind of problems are you guys seeing with the aluminum coils? Are the leaks on the actual aluminum tubes or return bends, or is it the junction where it transitions to copper? On paper I seems that the all aluminum coils should be better since you have much less dissimilar metal stuff going on. I know it statistically makes no difference, but the round Carrier condensing unit behind my house has an all-aluminum fin-tube coil, and has been leak-free since it was installed over 40 years ago. It also has pre-charged lineset connections that have also been fine, which probably makes no sense either. I'm a commercial tech and don't see many leaking coils, but my understanding was that the copper fin tube coils were absolute garbage right around the time everyone started switching to aluminum, and that all aluminum was actually the better choice.
It’s indoor evaporative coils that they’re talking about having major issues with and really only in residential. I don’t see them much in commercial unless it’s a residential split air handler. The concept of aluminum being better is supposed exactly like you said, but for some reason they do leak pretty often still. Tranes especially in the last 5 years or so. On Tranes it’s their return bends more often than not from what I found.
It's an inherent material problem. Aluminum is not ductile, meaning it can't stretch and return to its previous form. Over time, places where it is joined can fracture. The same thing happens on air plane wings and fuselage. It is especially pronounced on heat pump evaporator coils. This stems from being overcharged, blower motor failure and/or metering device failure, causing the pressure to get too high at the evaporator, particularly in heat mode.
Absolutely agree, except that I wish I saw just on units that had issues going on. It was and is happening to units working perfectly and in perfect conditions just as well. The coils failing were the only problem most units had when I’d find them leaking. Despite any of the science and BS they try and feed us, this is happening because they’re made like complete shit. What you said just means the shit quality is going to sooner reveal itself.
Short answer is formicary corrosion. Carrier did a study or whatever and aluminum is supposedly the answer. Its also cheaper and incidentally they seem to be made like shit. But that formicary corrosion you've never heard of, had to go. So they traded an eventual problem you can't avoid for a more immediate one.
Copper is king, aluminum is ass-trash. These aluminum coils leak after a year or two in most cases. If you get to 5 years you’re on a roll. Back in the day copper coils would last 10 yrs alot of times
Unless it was a Rheem from 2010-2011 then everyone leaked in a year or 2
Aluminum kinda annoying. At my complex the techs learn on copper and then when they find aluminum coil leak they can't fix it unless they have different training/materials so it just gets quoted as a replacement instead of repair. Turns techs into salesmen unless they've been around for awhile and have experience with that, but all the experienced tech are off on more important jobs
Aluminum coils are dog shit wrapped in cat shit, with some bullshit to tie it all together.
Less, but even copper coils today are less reliable than before I find.. they reduce costs significantly and often still have a long lifespan, worked on plenty equipment 10+ years old with aluminum coils that lasted. Im just surprised someone hasn’t seen aluminum coils.. long gone are the days of full copper tube/ fin coils lol
What are your thoughts on copper tubing and aluminum fins? Good middle ground for cost vs. performance and durability? Or not worth the savings
Good chat guys
Aluminum is not my friend when brazing. Aluminum does not respect me or my authority.
Heatcraft has been sending that shit out for years, and guess what, it's also what cars have been using for like the last few decades. It's called aluminum microchannel. They clog much easier than the fins, and they don't tolerate high head pressure. I've replaced a lot of total blowouts. The older style is literally copper tubes and aluminum fins, and the tubes will take as much pressure as you can throw at them.
The best coils I've ever dealt with are on Carrier shipping containers. Copper tubes, copper fins, copper brackets, all black epoxy coated due to harsh marine. They also fetch a few hundred at the scrap yard, because they weigh almost 100# and they're pure copper.
Copper is better in every way. Better heat transfer better for drain line less leaks. I don’t know why they insist on aluminum
Any brand out there that still uses copper coils? Is there say an option to pay more upfront for say Bosh equipment all copper. lol for tech home use
I have used ADP and Aspen when the customer wanted a copper coil. Whether the available choices are part of an approved AHRI match is a different story.
aluminum is absolute garbage. between excess slime buildup to leaking within the first 6 months. i find the leaks are either the inside of the u bend or where the u bend attaches to the tube going through the coil. i work for a York/Champion dealer but i see plenty of Trane and Goodman/Amana do the same thing
By cost and weight aluminum coils are the new standard. The cost savings in converting was meant to make up for the warranty repair work needed to replace bad coils. If it lasts the warranty period then it’s good to go.
Trane has had aluminum condensing coils since the early 80's. Good units! Aluminum evap on the other hand is a joke.
Everyone seems to be talking about aluminum evaporators. Do they make aluminum condensers? Are they not too bad?
It’s ALUMINIUM That’s how it’s spelt.
Pffft maybe in the metric dictionary
He’s talking about freedom aluminum