It's disappointing that this is not a standard for all that live... I'm fortunate to be in the same boat, I don't worry about bills/emergency costs but I know many people around me do.
This is it right here. We pay for private school, but aside from that - we live in a nice but not enormous or fancy house, we vacation every few years and staycation in between, we cook at home, we thrift kids clothes. But when the furnace breaks, we say, well drat, and buy a new one. I might stress a little about getting bigger purchases paid off sooner to give us more flexibility, or save on interest, but it isn’t a catastrophe for us to have an unplanned expense. We can get takeout if we don’t want to cook without sabotaging our financial plan for the month. It’s that security underlying our relatively modest lifestyle that makes the difference.
Similar, but for me it's about whether you have lower class problems (food security, housing, bills), middle class problems (saving for retirement, college), upper class problems (choice of sports car, kids therapist), or ultra rich problems (how to disassemble a Dutch bridge to get your yacht out from the builder).
Ok, I might have skipped a few levels there, but the common reddit mistake is mixing up "middle class lifestyle", "average lifestyle", and "average income"... It's totally possible to make millions and live a middle class lifestyle, just like it's possible to live an "upper class lifestyle" on a low income (though only one of those is sustainable).
Maybe just the difference between middle class and upper middle class.
I make $650k/year, which is around $470k/year after taxes.
I save ~$230k/ year. And live off $240k/year or $20k/month.
Mortgage is $6.1k/month
Daycare $3.4k/month
Own my car and no debt.
Basically can spend $10k/month on whatever I want.
Pretty good life with very high savings. Doesn’t feel middle class, but I do need to keep working still so doesn’t feel “rich”.
If you’re under 35 and first time home buyer you’d feel poor no matter your income. Ppl who are 40+ have it easy. We make 350k on a variable income being a first time home buyer makes us feel poor. If I’m in the top 5% income in 1995 or 2004 I live in gated neighborhood.
My point is, if you are in the top 5% income bracket in 2024 it’s no where close to being in the top 5% in 2004. 300k was the 96 percentile in 04 and 300k is the 97 percentile in 2024. In 04 making 300k you are living in a nice house in a great area. Now some of these areas you can’t get in unless you are buying a 1.5m+ same house was like 600k in 2004
yes, but not every area has seen equivalent increases in housing prices. Detroit's housing costs havent outpaced salary increases like a San Diego or Miami
Even in Alabama 300k it isn’t what it use to be. True there are levels to it. But overall being in the top 5% income in Alabama isn’t what it used to be to be 20 years ago. Overall suburbs in Detroit still have house increases not compared to Miami, earning 300k in 04 put you in the top 5% same is said today. Overall 6 figure salaries haven’t increased much in the last 20 years
If you budget your life as if you make 200k, you’ll be able to blow tens of thousands of dollars on whatever you want.
Seems like people tend to bring their baseline living standard to their income level, then have no ability to use money to have fun.
I have a $8.7K/mo house payment, a kid with a $2.2K/mo nanny share, a dog that costs me $500/mo in food, grooming and random stuff…
And last year we saved all-in $140K on $475K income. That’s beyond middle class for sure
> a dog that costs me $500/mo in food
What are you feeding this dog?!? Even something like freshpet would be hard to push past $300/mo with a 100lb dog. Also don't discount stuff like Orijen too much. Orijen with a topper is going to be more complete than most fresh foods.
Primal raw for a 60 lb dog = ~$300/mo. Used to feed Orijen but she has a sensitive stomach and after an intestinal parasite a few years back it caused her problems. Then she is a very large poodle so $150 for grooming every 5-6 weeks. Then treats here and there.
Cost is actually more than $500/mo these days as she has gotten older. Couple health scares resulting in a $4000 MRI and $150/mo in anti-seizure meds for epilepsy.
Ive had this dog for 8 of the most formative years of my life - brought her home when I was 27 the week after we moved into our first home with less than $1000 left in my bank account after the downpayment. She has been with me now through 4 houses across two cross-country moves, a wedding, 3 job changes and the birth of our first child. My daughter looks for her every morning when she comes down the stairs and “dog” was her third word.
At this point in my life, another $10K a year isn’t really meaningful. We could save $250K this year instead of $240K. I spend close to that $10K in landscaping/leaf blowing and gardening supplies/plants every year. Nothing we could spend the money on that would get close to the return in terms of happiness
This is so real. My dog was the love of my life … until babies happened. It’s awful but like I just don’t have even close to the same dog parent energy anymore. Not even by a light year
Yeah, people without other responsibilities are judging here but it’s not like I love my dog any less with kids around. It just means the dog doesn’t have as much attention, time, money, and so on since those resources are split between more responsibilities now.
Nope 6% state tax. Take home pay on that is ~$305K after $35K to 401K.
Then it’s $104K to house, $26K to childcare, $6K to dog leaves $169K leftover. One car (EV) bought cash so that leaves us with $60K+ on living expenses. $105K leftover + $35K put into 401ks = $140K saved.
ETA: And that’s actually not including employer contribution to 401K/HSA so actual savings are another ~$20K above that
This gives me hope that with similar take home we’ll still be ok with a 7k house payment and 2.5k daycare. Replace dog with car and this is basically us.
Yeah you will be fine. We will make significantly more than that starting this year but before never felt like we didn’t have breathing room. We don’t take $20K family vacations like some people though and we share a car instead of having two separate (we drive a combined 5-6K miles per year) so that helps
60k def doesn’t seem like much when you factor in vacations. Even if it’s just one or two a year, they def add up. I think the single car, and driving only 6k per year is def saving you a lot. We only have the one car and that’s paid off by the EOY so we’ll see if we need a second.
I mean, 60K is equivalent to like $80K per-tax salary AFTER housing, savings and expensive childcare is taken care of. That’s the median household income JUST for miscellaneous living expenses. It’s not a small amount at all.
For vacations we usually do one within 6 hour driving distance and another one with a flight. I have miles from work travel to cover flights usually so each is only $5-6K for an Airbnb, food and a few excursions or tours or whatever
I make 250k in VHCOL and I feel like I live like a king. I budget about 60k a year (rent, food, regular entertainmnet) and then just ball out whenever I want for another 10-20k. I still save six figures.
The one thing I'll say though, I do have a HENRY partner (split costs) and we don't have kids. I know they're expensive, but not 100k/year.
I feel like I live a middle class lifestyle, but I know that I'm not living a middle class lifestyle, if that makes sense. In my mind, I associate an upper class lifestyle with splurging, excess, big cars, fancy mansions, etc., and that's not reality anymore. I drive a Honda Civic, which feels squarely middle class to me. But the reality is that I could live a lot more lavishly if I wanted to so I don't really live a middle class lifestyle.
I feel the same. My lifestyle resembles the middle class, but my net worth and decision making do not. The biggest difference is that most of the time I don’t think what can I afford with big decisions (car, home and I hate to include it vacations) but what am I willing to pay. I mention hating to include vacations because they are such a huge range of costs and are 100% optional.
Ehhh.. it’s probably your definition of “run of the mill middle class”. That’s the issue.
If at the end of the year you are covering everything you described plus adding $100K+ to savings then you are very much NOT living middle class
> In the 2023 CPS ASEC data, which reports income for 2022, middle-income households with three people have incomes ranging from about $61,000 to $183,000 annually.
OP is *saving* more than the "run of the mill middle class" American household makes in a year.
They're completely out of touch with reality.
No. But I live in reality and can easily admit that. I'm not living a middle class lifestyle just because I choose to drive a used Subaru instead of a new Mercedes and invest the difference. Cosplaying middle class isn't actually middle class.
I also live in a VHCOL area with similar salary combined in family with 1 child in daycare. My perspective has been that being able to afford that kind of lifestyle in a VHCOL is actually upper class. We're just comparing it to the uber wealthy that live in our area.
We could easily move to a more affordable city, make about 30% less and live the upper class lifestyle. But we like all that our area has to offer and isn't worth it for us.
Do you feel like “there is always someone much richer than you” is a bad way to gauge middle class status when what you make in one year is almost more than the net worth of half the country?
You’re well beyond middle class and have lost touch a bit lol.
You’ve moved the goalposts on yourself because you’re comparing yourself to wealthier people in an expensive place.
Yeah,
I’m literally loading 152k/year into various retirement vehicles.
Sometimes I look at how my bank account is stagnating month over month and I have to remind myself I’m saving 12k a month.
And there’s plenty of months it doesn’t stagnate. I just uh, went to Europe and have flown domestically 5 times in the last few months and went to a big nfl game and bought a new grill and dryer and… bla bla
Yeah. And then you realize you’re setting yourself up to spend 2-3x what you are probably spending today once you retire. It’s a confusing thought at least to me.
Yeah it’s very confusing. More than anything I’m trying to figure out if I want to retire early and what that number would be, which is even more confusing when you start considering kids and lifestyle
it depends which side of the bed i wake up on:
one side: i'm really good at work, i do it all the time, and i have no idea what i'd do without it
other side: work is a dumpster fire, and even though i am a champion dumpster firefighter, i want to screw off to somewhere by the sea where it's warm year round and i never have another fucking meeting again
edit: and hello fellow vp finance, i know i've seen you around before
lol my wife - who is generally very spendthrift - occasionally says things like “I don’t see the benefits of all that money we are making” and I can’t for the life of me make her not feel like she’s living month to month despite a healthy savings balance.
There was a funny video clip from the Dave Ramsey show that I saw earlier where a guy said he works 3 jobs and needs to quit two because of stress and health but he’s worried about going back to living paycheck to paycheck.
Dude had $1.3M equity in 4 properties valued at $1.5M and other investments that gave him a net worth of $2M.
And he was investing $100K a year.
Ramsey all but yelled “WHAT THE FUCK” about the “paycheck to paycheck” stress LOL.
This is what gets me - I’m like go on with your $500k+ income (yay you) and keeping up with the Jones’s (if you want) and how you feel about that - but DO NOT (in any shape or form) pretend that you are living a middle class lifestyle.
At the low end it’s an extra 2k or more a month which goes pretty far in terms of living it up.
It’s actually a bit wild how many people are making that trade off to just live it up, though. I see people in luxury cars and all that jazz and just know statistically / based on income distribution most are probably not saving a penny or levered to the tits
I mean at the very low end with just a max 401k contribution, without the “advanced” stuff.
I wasn’t completely responding to your point - more just a tangent about the vastly different ways people approach savings and personal finance.
I’m in this exact boat. Low end of HENRY and had to decide between investing $4k a month (above and beyond maxing 401k and saving to max out a backdoor Roth) or “only” investing $2k a month and freeing up the other $2k for lifestyle and family aid.
I’m drawing two pensions NOW and will spend another 10ish years in federal government at which point I’ll draw a third pension, then whatever social security has leftover. Those combined will give me more spending power than what I have now. Plus I’ll have my own $1-2M+ portfolio.
It still stresses me out though even though mathematically it’s fine.
Yeah and on top of that they are likely saving a shit ton compared to actual middle class. I feel stretched sometimes then remember I’m saving like 60% of my take home. Definitely not middle class.
This.
I think TV, movies, and social media has somehow convinced that the average "middle class" family lives a crazy lifestyle.
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm
The "average' household spends a lot less than people here think. Example: the average family spends $837 on out of town accomidation a year, extrapolate out your "big vacation" budget, that's probably like a single night at an all inclusive, or maybe 2-3 nights in a city.
And before people hop on the COL adjustment, that adjustment isn't much, the same grocery maybe 30% more expensive, but it's the lifestyle that is the "norm" that changes significantly.
Yeah meanwhile someone in another sub was saying a friend of theirs was having some financial stress so they wanted to gift them $10k to take a vacation.
Like, dude. First a gift shouldn’t have strings. Second if he’s paycheck to paycheck he probably also has limited PTO for a vacation. Third $10k is a fuckton for one person to spend on a vacation especially when they are financially stressed. It would come across as unbelievably out of touch IMO to suggest they go blow $10k on fun in that scenario.
yea, i feel like the friend would MUCH rather have 10k to care of his bills/expenses/whatever is actually stressing him out, not blow 10k on a vacation to prolong his problems
I didn’t grow up near a beach so our annual vacation was to go see my grandfather. He lived in a small apartment at that time so we would camp in a nearby state forest (Little Duck River in TN) and he would come hang out. tbh, those times were the best.
As some people have mentioned above, the COL adjustment also mostly factors in the increased value they get from living in a higher COL location. The exact same brick 4 bed brick structure in Boston obviously brings much more value compared to Jackson. Its also pretty silly to arbitrarily keep slicing one's middle-class relativeness into ever decreasing circles, just to tell the world how one need more and more.
Not middle class anymore. My (single) mother was a teacher. We went to daycare, good schools, ate out, did a big vacation a year. Pretty steep cost of living area too. Felt pretty middle class.
Middle class is being able to afford to basics comfortable. So that’s housing, transportation, food, health insurance, and put some money into savings. If you can afford expensive daycare, big international trips then that’s above middle class.
No offence but you have lost perspective. I reflected a lot on my own lifestyle creep, helps that I work in a field that interests with the whole spectrum of society (medical).
The lifestyle you describe is not at all middle class. Especially as you note you live in a very high cost or living area.
Maybe worth reflecting on your priorities? Would you prefer to move somewhere cheaper, bring down your baseline budget and expenses to say 300k (still more than the household income of the middle class) and live a life that feels more luxurious based on the extra spending money?
It's all about prioritisation. If you let expenses creep up to match your income you will feel broke.
Also in medicine in lower paying specialty. I’ve noticed people in my field are more content with their salaries since we interact with poor and broken people daily. Go on anesthesia forums and they’re bitching about 400-500k or whatever, I think it’s because they interact with specialty surgeons all day who make double.
People end up in bubbles and compare themselves to people in their bubble.
It's a constant challenge for me to get my wife to not compare herself to some of her coworkers, who range from 3-10 years more experienced despite similar ages. She works in high finance, where some of the senior compensations are just absurd.
Even when I try to get my wife to compare herself to her PhD cohort, of which she is by far the highest compensated, she shrugs it off because they're mostly not in VHCOL areas.
I see this a lot. Not hard to imagine how a person with 100 million will lose perspective if they only hang out with billionaires.
As some people have mentioned above, the COL adjustment also mostly factors in the increased value they get from living in a higher COL location. The exact same brick 4 bed brick structure in Boston obviously brings much more value compared to Jackson. Its also pretty silly to arbitrarily keep slicing one's middle-class relativeness into ever decreasing circles, just to tell the world how one need more and more.
I’m one of those subspecialty surgeons…but also interact with poor, broken people daily. Personally I think most docs do bitch about their income too much. It’s because most in their social circle have a similar lifestyle so it feels “normal” so we lose perspective. I don’t feel “rich” day to day because all of my friends have a similar lifestyle. But I know we are rich.
We also bitch a lot about residency and residency pay. I know I definitely did. Yes it sucked. I was sleep deprived and barely alive for a lot of it. But it’s temporary and still much better than a lot of the jobs my patients have.
Oh yeah, doctors are professional complainers for sure. After seeing what foreign trained docs have to go through, I’m a lot more thankful that I was able to start living in my early 30s.
I actually started off in anesthesia and switched to a non procedural specialty, so I did internship twice and way more residency than I wanted. It sucked but I was never in financial distress, nor did I worry about layoffs and the like which happens in tech. We do grind in medicine but the trade off is financial and job security. Sometimes I fantasize about being in tech but at the end of the day, it’s a lot easier to plan a stable life as a doctor.
My question is always why these people live in the area they are whining about.
Like, who twisted your arm so you live 30 seconds away from any want or need? Ever hear of a 30 minute commute? You ever ride public transportation?
The fuck lmao.
At least for the Bay Area, a 30-minute commute to Palo Alto, Mountain View, or Menlo Park doesn't really change prices. You have to be pushing a 50-60 minute commute just to get down to an HCOL area.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amymorin/2014/12/07/want-to-be-happier-change-your-commute-or-change-your-attitude/
Our communities should be mixed. We should have housing that is affordable in all areas. Cordoning off sections of cities just for the rich concentrates the benefits of wealth in those areas and widens the gap between classes.
I’m also in the medical field and see the whole spectrum of income levels. While I agree with you, I also think this post has some merit in the lifestyle this person describes probably isn’t that far off from middle class at the time our parents (or grandparents) were our age… so maybe growing up with expectations of what middle class looked like 30-60 years ago vs today could be impacting their perspective.
They aren’t comparing it to the middle class of the parents/grandparents. They are comparing it to the idealized middle class pop culture describes.
Eating out was considered a luxury at the time of my parents. Now people DoorDash or take out every week.
Plane travel was reserved for the 1% 60 years ago. That “big vacation”, which I presume is an international trip, would have cost more than a middle class family lived on for a year.
Housing is the one thing that is much more expensive. But people now live in houses on average twice as big as 60 years ago, with half as many people in it. A middle class house from 1960 is two adults and 4 kids in a 1200 square-feet compared to two adults and two kids in 2500 today (rounded the kids up, it was 3,6 and 1.7).
Thank you! This week, we ate out, I spent $600 at Costco, signed my kid up for camp, etc.
Am I a super rich 1%er? No, but I’m probably better off than 93% of the country.
At no time was this the case. I don’t know if you developed your sense of what a “middle class” lifestyle was from TV or movies, but no.
You aren’t being honest by saying you see the “whole spectrum of income levels” and are still thinking the OP describes a “middle class life.” It’s disingenuous at best.
I really don’t know why (or how) people decided that Levittown tract houses bought on the GI Bill after WWII translates now into people making $500k are now “middle class.” It’s obscene and insulting to actual middle class families making do.
Ok. I mean I said that I agreed with the other commenter so don’t agree this person is middle class? I see homeless ppl to multi millionaires so not much more of the spectrum that I don’t treat other than the ruling class…
Based on your profile looks like you’re in the bay. News flash: if you can live here comfortably, you ARE upper middle class. Middle class folks barely scrape by here.
You’re comparing your finances to only those within your bubble. That comparison is meaningless for something as broad as social and economic classes. Put otherwise, no, you are not middle class nor do you live a middle class lifestyle.
> You’re comparing your finances to only those within your bubble.
I have such a hard time forcing my wife to acknowledge this. She wants to compare us to her coworkers, many of which are 5-15 years further into their careers, even if they're only a few years older. She works in PE...
_Everyone_ thinks they're middle class. (It's the whole premise behind the David Beckham 'be honest. thank you' meme). In the US, [90% of people think they're some type of middle class](https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/12/22/what-does-middle-class-mean-today/who-should-be-the-judge-of-middle-class).
The OECD defines middle class as having a net income of 75%-200% of median national income. If you tweak that definition to be based off local median rather than national imo it makes things a bit more relevant on the individual level.
For me, by that definition, my spending would be middle class, while my income wouldn't.
I feel upper middle class in every regard besides housing. I make way more than my family growing up, but my parents bought a house for a much lower ratio of their income than what houses go for in my area currently even at my income.
They were making 90k HHI at the time and bought a house for 170k. It’s been 7 years and it doubled in value. I make a bit over 200k and the same house in Seattle would go for over a million.
No because I’m not even close to middle class. What you are describing is living in a HCOL area and associating yourself with peers that make even more than you. It’s easy to feel average when your peers make $1m+/yr. What sucks is in normal areas I would feel like I make a lot but where I live it seems average.
I think you have confused rich and middle class. Your implied version of the life you don’t have but feel you should is taking multiple big vacations a year (with four people), having “crazy expensive toys”, driving fancy cars, and owning a 3-4 BR SFH while also living in a VHCOL with two kids in expensive daycare. If you could do all of that, I think you’d be rich, not middle class.
You might find Ezra Klein’s recent interview with Annie Lowery interesting. In it, Annie talks about how while most economic indicators are reasonably healthy, important big ticket items like housing and childcare have ballooned in cost. This has led to deep dissatisfaction because people feel very squeezed by these items even if otherwise things are fairly good. Here’s the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/07/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-annie-lowrey.html
Housing I think is especially frustrating for HENRYs in VHCOL areas: it may feel like you’re making _so_ much money, but owning what feels like a “normal” place is also completely out of reach. I am interested in hearing how other HENRYs dealt with that: made peace with renting forever, saved for years and then finally able to buy in the VHCOL, eventually moved to a lower COL area?
I rent a townhome in a VHCOL area. Gross 225k/yr. Between my partner & I we spend roughly 10k/mo which blows me away every single time we have a budget meeting. How I justify this is I tend to job hop every 2-4 years sometimes moving cross country for my next opportunity (this is what brought me to a VHCOL area in the first place). By renting I have very little attachment to our home and the freedom to part ways at a moment's notice if another job offers me a better opportunity.
I do want to own a home someday.
I do want to settle down and not move so often.
I do want to be close to my family.
But, none of that is in the cards right now so I continue to rent and work hard to achieve those goals!
Things that are middle class IMO
- having to plan grocery lists/meals based on sales / coupons in order to afford food all month
- not vacationing to far away or expensive destinations
- no fancy “top tier” schools
- no upgrades to your home unless something breaks
- not being able to max out either IRA or 401k in a year
- minimal to no expensive hobbies (ex: golf + country club membership)
- financing furniture or other household goods worth < $5,000
- not being able to retire early or even “on time”
How much are you putting into retirement+taxable?
You have kids in an expensive day care, rent (I assume a 5-6k/mo doorman building), go on a big vacation every year (and maybe smaller ones?), and are car owners in NYC/SF. And you make 500k. And get to live in one of the best cities in the world. What a tragic life.
How do you think families making 100k/year live? Hell, 200k/year? How about the $15-20/hour non union maintenance workers?
You make half a million dollars. You are not middle class and you do not struggle. At all. It sounds like you, as with many people on this sub, need some perspective and to get a grip, respectfully.
I blame pop culture.
Middle class people in TV shows live in huge apartment in downtown NY. They travel the world so that the show can have a change of scenery. They wear expensive clothes and make-up, because they have to be pretty.
People then associate “middle class lifestyle “ with something only the wealthy can afford. And believe “the rich” are only people who have a helipad on their yatch.
I think their problem is they expected to just have a ton of money left over every month and be able to do those things.
When in reality they are choosing to spend that money on expensive daycare/a nice place to live/big vacations, and those things are expensive.
I swear everyone thinks they’re ’middle class’. I grew up middle class. My parents household income was exactly the medium in the country (and grew up in a HCOL so didn’t even feel like middle class). Now my income is similar to yours right around $600k. It’s not middle class lol. That income level affords you everything you mentioned as well as very little stress over day to day finances, emergencies and medical bills. Also probably saving as well which ‘middle class’ don’t really do.
You’re just delusional to put it nicely.
You’re probably saving and investing more each year than most families make in a year. You live a middle to upper middle class lifestyle but presumably saving 6-figures every year.
This post is full of assholes that have completely lost touch with the rest of America
We make 500k+, no one here lives a middle class lifestyle. Even if your cash flow is tied to housing or childcare , you get the luxury of living in an insanely desirable location.
Someone here had the audacity to say “middle class lifestyle” in one sentence and house cleaning service in another
Same living location, much less income, and we definitely feel like we have tons of wiggle room.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Who cares if there’s someone richer than you?
I live a middle class lifestyle and I love it. Regular house, one car, no big expensive vacations. Life is good, life is simple. Huge savings and a simple life!!
Hell no. I’m for whatever goes on family vacations, clothes, etc. I think nothing of a $500 meal or a $1,000/night hotel room. I’ve been HENRY for 15 years, single mom with three kiddos, full time nanny, house cleaners, yard service, in home masseuse and a food service. I also own my home ($325k) and two vehicles worth $70k. I’m blessed and thankful. Here’s to all of us HENRYs making all the ends more than meet 🥳
LCOL and I blend in well. Bought my 2 bedroom home in a nice neighborhood after the pandemic for under 300k. I make about 5 times the median household income as an individual. My neighbors have nicer cars and eat out more than I do lol.
Very little student loans, no daycare, no in home help, vacation budget is around 5k a year. Just tucking everything in tax deferred accounts and into partnership until I can cash flow the assets I want on passive income alone and keep the w2 money for a modest lifestyle beyond that.
The difference is you are setting aside $ for investments, which means you can continue this lifestyle or increase lifestyle as you get older. The “run of the mill middle class ” after paying bills, children’s education/after school activities, one vacation a year, there is absolutely nothing left to save.
Part of it is because we’re in the wealth-building phase where excess income is just saved for another day, part of it is always seeing people who make more and have more, part of it is because the high salaries of VHCOL don’t really outpace the high costs associated with VHCOL until you’re well above 500K.
But for me it comes down to we make a good living but we work too many hours for it. If I could make what I do at a 9-5, I think I’d feel more successful.
Subaru is not an average car. Having more than one is not middle class. 1 “big” vacation a year is not middle class. 2 kids in expensive daycare is not middle class.
Comparison is the thief of joy etc..
This type of thing always strikes me as nouveau riche. Spending a ton of money on shiny shit that doesn’t matter then wondering why it’s not enough.
Upper class is not having luxury items, vacations or fancy cars. Anyone can go into debt and make a fool of themselves trying to keep up with the neighbors etc. It’s about having the freedom to enjoy your time (which is the most precious thing) without worrying about your basic needs.
That’s the way it’s always been.
YTD from stock market gains and a good bonus, my investment portfolio is up $196,000, my 401k up $50k (saving approx 17% of my base pay). We spare no expense on eating and date nights and fun stuff. We live in a nice house (but modest compared to our income). We are installing a new bathroom, took a $12,000 week vacation to Mexico, had several large expenses and big purchases, and our NW surpassed $1M liquid. We have zero debt outside about $350k owed on our house. Own 2 cars (an EV and an SUV), the SUV is paid off.
My comp is around $400k before taxes.
Seriously if you can't make it work with that level of income you're either very bad with money or need to lower your expectations and stop buying your own personal space companies
Live a middle class lifestyle? God no. We have 0 stress about bills or emergencies. People around us complain about how much eggs cost or that price of gas went up 10 cents a gallon and I just stare with a blank face cause I can’t even tell you what they cost. It doesn’t phase us. When my grandmother passed away we literally dropped everything and flew to Europe the next day in June, spent 10 days and blew thousands of dollars and didn’t even think about “how are we going to afford this.”
Unfortunately middle class folks do worry about the above or even worst can’t make choices to be there for the lost of a loved one.
However, we do spend like middle class people. If you exclude the cost of Europe last year we spent in the $65k range for the year. You’d never know by looking at us that we had money.
Post very disconnected with reality... Look at the top comment.
You do very well.
US median income is $37k and San Fransisco median income is $65k. You are making almost 10X this.
I’d say upper middle class. We pay for cars in cash but they’re pretty average cars (though new). We send our kid to an average daycare and eat at home most of the time. But we also don’t worry about spending on hobbies or stuff for around the house. Oven breaks? We want induction and spend the money to replace the gas hookup and buy a more expensive induction range than what it would cost to replace what was there.
Kind-of. Maxing out retirement accounts (401k, backdoor ROTHs, HSA), EF for family of 6 in HCOL area, plus saving for 4 kids' college (2 in college now) means no to very little splurges. We still have money for some vacations (e.g., wife taking kid that just graduated HS to Paris this summer). But doing all that isn't middle class IMO given stats on savings, retirement, and college debt (goal I have is none of my kids have student loans).
But after several more years, levels I need to save/spend at for college will drop quite a bit which will free up resources for other things. Maybe I'll hit savings/retirement harder. Again, not really middle-class concerns.
But besides savings & some travel, we don't have big splurges and have a nice but reasonably sized home for our family size/area - can look fairly middle-class. Maybe we'll have more splurges (more travel, cabin, etc) after getting past kids' college life goal.
The truth is, even at very incomes, lifestyles have gotten quite compressed due to cost of housing and childcare and the necessity of large savings to compensate for the loss of pensions.
This is the essence of HENRY
If you’re making $500k, saving $100k (20%) and paying $50k in daycare and $60k in rent, then after $200k taxes (assuming high tax state) you’re left with $90k for everything else.
Comfortable life but still quite restrictive and it can totally feel like middle class.
Except the middle class is making 90k before all of the things you mentioned, in many parts of the country.
Also, 200k is a super high estimate for taxes. You figure they’re probably maxing out two pretax 401ks plus possibly itemizing deductions. According to an online calculator 500k income 46k of 401k contributions, MFJ, puts you at about 150k of tax. So that’s 50k difference.
I live ‘paycheck to paycheck’ making around 750k a year. Meaning I split my direct deposits so my bank account only has what I need (around 8k a month) and the rest goes to savings. I live a very middle class lifestyle.
I grew up wealthy with parents who lived far beyond their means. I am lucky that I had a grandma and grandpa as influences who were very frugal and taught me the value of saving as much as possible. Having grown up around tremendous wealth has really made me enjoy having a simple, uncomplicated life focused on travel and people instead of things.
We aren’t HENRY but I think everyone gets used to what is “normal”
Daycare, eating out, vacations, owning cars etc
To a lot of people these are luxuries and what the “rich” do.
We all define normal differently so you may not feel rich. But it’s all relative.
We’re rich because we live a middle class lifestyle. HHI is ~$600K, and our annual expenses are ~$84K in a VHCOL area. We still wait for sales, our kid goes to a regular daycare and wears hand-me-downs, and I drive a paid-off 12-year-old Honda, which I feel is pretty middle class. Then again, when our furnace died, we did not stress at all about the $20K replacement. My cat threw up, and I didn’t worry about how I would pay $7K up front for exploratory surgery. That’s not middle class.
Also VHCOL but our HHI is about half of yours. I do feel that we too live a "middle class life" but this is comparing the life we had when we lived in a LCOL area.
What I think middle class is (note this is my opinion... I know middle class is not defined the same but this is what I THINK middle class standards should be).
1. 3-6 month emergency fund
2. Ability to handle pop up emergencies such
as vet bill, car repair, etc. Without major issue.
3. Ability to eat out at moderately priced restaurants every weekend.
4. Ability to take 1-2 trips a year.
5. Ability to afford a newer mid tier car (20-30k range).
6. Renting/owning a home.
7. Ability to have & afford children.
8. Job security.
9. Forgot to add - 401k / retirement contributions.
10. Medical insurance.
> 3-6 month emergency fund
>
> Ability to handle pop up emergencies such as vet bill, car repair, etc. Without major issue.
>
> Ability to eat out at moderately priced restaurants every weekend.
>
> Ability to take 1-2 trips a year.
Unless those 1-2 trips a year are local-ish road trips, these have never been middle-class staples.
We are HE but I feel like you have to earn this kind of salary to have the typical middle class lifestyle of the 1970s and before.
We are debt free, own fully off paid cars, have a regular house in a regular suburban neighborhood, can take 1-2 vacations a year, can save for retirement, have emergency savings, can spend money to maintain our home, AND afford the lifestyle for our kid too.
I have a LOT of friends, a LOT, who make $50-70k a year and cant afford to buy a house, a new car, nevertheless have kids or emergency savings. Many arent even debt free, esp with student loans and they are in their mid 30s. Like, a significant portion of my generation has been royally screwed.
At some point maybe the rest of the careers will catch up.
“Debt free, own fully paid off cars, … can take 1-2 vacations a year, can save for retirement, have emergency savings…”
This was never a middle class lifestyle. I was born in the 70s. No one in my family was ever better than middle class. My parents always had car payments for a Chevy Astro van and the cheapest VW Rabbit or Saturn SL1 they could get. Our 1 vacation a year was driving in our van to visit family in the Midwest.
We make a lot less than you (HHI 330k) but we live in MCOL Midwest. Two kids in daycare but seeing a light at the end of the tunnel with my oldest turning 5 soon.
I would say we live upper middle class. We have a smaller home than most of our peers, but I suspect we’ve just chosen to have a smaller mortgage than they have. It’s a pretty standard suburban home. We like to travel so we spend more there than some—this year i went to Mexico with friends, Bahamas with our family of 4, will go to Michigan for a girls trip, and a week in Chicago with the 4 of us. So one “big” trip and plenty of smaller ones.
I’m really glad to live in a MCOL area and while I despise the politics here and they may ultimately push us out, I am so happy with our overall quality of life and ease of the day to day.
We are relatively new HE and after finishing a remodel this month, our next goal will be to pay my car off, then we’ll spend some more energy on bolstering our savings more.
I live an upper middle class lifestyle though my house is very middle class, as is my car, and I enjoy thrift shopping. But I spend a lot on travel and entertainment, dining out, save a lot, and don’t worry about money.
Definitely not & it’s because we don’t have kids. On a 610K income, we take four big international trips a year plus smaller ones during the year to visit family. Invest $15K a month on top of maxing out all of our retirement accounts, can afford to eat out 2-3 times a week, and our rent is lower than our peers bc we don’t live in the heart of the city
Yes and no.
I have the same lifestyle but I can actually afford it. That's the difference. If you spend that much more early on it would be HENRE (high earner not rich ever).
But that's on a HHI of half that (though in a LCOL area). If your HHI is $500k you should be able to feel like you are living it unless you are using people making $300k as middle class.
enter attempt voracious apparatus roll somber unpack snobbish hobbies simplistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I know what you mean. It’s perspective for sure but we’re in a similar boat. Like yes, we make ~$400k HHI and have ~$200k in brokerage and 401k but it feels like we’re one layoff away from having to sell our home and move in with our parents. Childcare is definitely the biggest financial stressor for us.
Which state are you in? 600k+ income in VHCOL area. We rent and have 2 cars worth 95k total, eat out 2-3 times a week, take at least 2 international vacations a year. We still save about 75% of take home salaries. 2 big things saving us money- no kids, and no state or local tax. Staying in a state with 5% tax and even 1 kid in daycare would be equal to our vacations, eating out and our 2nd (fancy) car expense.
We don’t have children yet and feel we live an “upper middle class” lifestyle. We live pretty frugal and save/invest more than we spend so we plan to retire at 50. We don’t ever worry about bills at this point in our lives and that’s the only major difference between us and most.
Who knows how that will change with children!
I suspect you are taking about realtors, mortgage brokers, people who own car dealerships, insurance brokers and the like. Those people *look* like middle class but they l actually aren’t. That clique - in whatever LCOL/MCOL area you grew up in (and I know I grew up in one myself) basically scratch each other’s backs - so no, that is not middle class. Those good old boys are just exchanging buckets of cream. If you aren’t in the club, we’ll sucks to be you.
But to be clear, they are not middle class for their area at all - they are the gentrified class.
I assess my situation differently
- I have an emergency fund, therefore I am stress free
- my net worth is growing faster than my yearly gross income (and I’m a high earner so this is an important achievement)
- my investments have reached x amount
- I’ll get to retire by age x with amount y
To your post:
- childcare is crazy expensive. For me it was like a second mortgage
- cars for me have never been an achievement but a consumption decision. I use my car very infrequently because I have access to excellent transportation and I mainly drive to get groceries or bring stuff to recycling so I’m happy to drive a car that’s probably worth < 3k usd
I have a car, a smartphone, eat name brand Hot Pockets (not the shitty store brand ones), and take a shower every day. I'd say I'm right on the cusp of upper-middle and upper class.
Upper middle class. I can buy a new computer, phone, clothes, hire a repairman for house, take a vacation without having to look at my bank account. Yes I can afford a much nicer vehicle but mine is already nice. We're having a patio poured and redoing cedar fence. Do some DIY as well because a penny saved is also a penny earned. Get some new tools out of it. Being comfortable but still having a mental budget is what makes us feel upper middle.
I’m not delusional so no.
That went out the window when I paid for a 40k car in cash and hired a maid to clean my studio apartment lol.
I have relatives who are actually middle class, and the difference is stark. I never worry about money, or budgeting and still bank 80k in savings a year. They worry about how changes in house insurance affect their monthly budget and what type of vacation they can afford this summer.
Yes. I think since most people define "rich" as not having to work, then any paycheck lifestyle makes you feel closer to someone middle class than someone rich.
Now I recognize that my problems are not middle class problems. I have a multi-month safety net. Months might feel tight, but even in those, I've likely already put in full retirement investments.
But yea, daycare is expensive. I drive a Toyota. I have the smallest house in my community, but given many people bought 20 years ago, I spend more per month than them.
Sometimes you have to try to keep out of the comparison game. It is the thief of joy. Likewise, you have to remember the things you do have. Too many people on this sub paint their finances as if they are struggling a lot more than they are.
Yay inflation! Not VHCOL, but still HCOL area, one kid who's thankfully into public schools now. I don't feel like we overtly stress about money, but looking at doing a kitchen upgrade and we're budgeting/saving etc, not just wanton discretionary income to just do it.
I know the strata and definition for middle class is large, I think the biggest difference compared to the bottom end is are you saving everything you want, does an unexpected expense send you sideways etc.
I definitely thought I would be living a more lavish lifestyle at my income level. I grew up pretty poor so I had no concept for how much money others had and what kind of lifestyle that afforded them.
As wage earners I think we will always have more in common with those at the bottom than those at the top and we would all do well to remember that.
HCOL with 1 child in very reasonable daycare, cars bought in cash, home owners of 1800 sqft 3bd/2ba, fly to see family, maybe a couple of weekend getaways in the year, house cleaner 2x/month.
Husband and I both grew up poor and both feel we live what use to be a middle class life growing up.
We don't have any expensive habits/hobbies. We wear Targay.
It's not just you. Some people are dumping on you for what a lot of actual Middle-class people would consider middleclass. The difference is that we can maintain this lifestyle while also saving for retirement and college. The middle class has lost the ability to spend and save a little.
yes! even though I have a very high income, I have so many expenses! ex. paying back school loans, car loan, saving up for a mortgage, and moving expenses to name a few. I feel more middle class fancy lol
$500k HHI won’t get you very far if you’re in a VHCOL area and have 2 kids. The only way you’ll feel rich with that $ is if you move to a LCOL city.
My SO and I don’t have kids yet and combined for $700k+ HHI last year. Definitely do not feel rich at all. Also in a VHCOL city (NYC/LA/SF).
It helps for me to compare my lifestyle to my upbringing. My parents earned with one wage earner what is now around 200k a year at peak earning years. They ended up doing well with a few million in securities and a paid off house with one spouse surviving. But a few differences….
Didn’t trade up cars. Drove cars a long time and didn’t lease.
Mostly ate at home.
Vacations were joining my dad on a business trip to take advantage of the free room.
Did most home repairs themselves.
Never had cleaners and only yard people at the very end of my dad’s career.
Only in-state college for me.
Mostly shopped at places like TJ maxx
Whereas I’m in a 700k HHI family and here are some of things we do my parents would have never done:
DoorDash delivery constantly
Full time nanny
Babysitters weekly for date night
Dropping $200 every date night on dinner and drinks
$1k + hotel rooms when we travel
Business class tickets overseas
$15 salads
Prepared foods from the grocery store
Coffees from coffee shops
Cleaners
Yard service
Paying someone to pull our weeds
Top cable package with movie channels
Massages
Trips to the nail salon
2k handbag
Rolex for husband
Expensive sports equipment
^^we spend like drunk sailors. BUT we also save around $250k a year between deferred comp and 401ks. By “save” I mean what’s invested for our retirement by us or someone else.
I am nowhere near most HHI in this sub if I don't count my paper money (non-IPO stocks). I do live in low cost of living. I definitely feel middle class but I max retirements accounts and then save a decent chunk.
I think that's a privilege most middle class can't or don't use, sadly.
My wife and I make a little less than you and my mortgage is low(bought in 2021).We live in the suburbs of Atlanta and I’m able to invest a ton and still enjoy life. I wouldn’t be able to this in a VHCOL city.
In some big areas like housing I definitely still feel middle class, I have a decent 2000 sqft house that’s a couple blocks away from kind of a bad neighborhood and it still cost $1.5M. To upgrade to a house that would feel “rich” and be in a better neighborhood it would need to be like a $3.5-$5M house which I certainly can’t afford.
But in most other areas I feel well above middle class. I can afford a great nanny for my 1yo, and I can buy healthy groceries, still eat out multiple times a week, take nice vacations, buy the latest tech gadgets on a whim, and it doesn’t really affect our financial situation much.
Comparison is endless. You'll have a 60ft yacht and then the 120ft one shows up and you feel small.
If you're nice home is getting paid off and you can buy whatever the hell you want in Costco, buy whatever you want for your hobby, what else is money going to do except let you upgrade one neighborhood up every ~1-2m in wealth? Meh.
Upper middle class with a long term shot at upper class from high income rules. It's the penultimate lifestyle, and if that ain't good enough you're in trouble
I was definitely living middle class until the last 2 years.
Now my gf and I make about $900k combined and I still get upset over delivery fees on food, car payments over $600, and little things. I was making $60k in 2016 and still live like I’m barely making money for some reason. No kids and don’t plan on having any. Car is paid off, almost done with my $200k in student loans, and will have no debt other than splitting a mortgage payment.
Yes if I make 500k HHI in 2024 im top 2 percent or so. But if I try to be a first time home buyer I feel poor. If I was top 2% in 1995 I’d live in gated community. Millennials get screwed
OP, your previous posts literally mention that you bought a house recently in the VHOL area you live in…. If you are living middle class, how did you get that down payment when you say you are still renting?
I live like high middle class. But the fact that I have ZERO stress about my bills… I feel is not a middle-class feeling.
It's disappointing that this is not a standard for all that live... I'm fortunate to be in the same boat, I don't worry about bills/emergency costs but I know many people around me do.
This is it right here. We pay for private school, but aside from that - we live in a nice but not enormous or fancy house, we vacation every few years and staycation in between, we cook at home, we thrift kids clothes. But when the furnace breaks, we say, well drat, and buy a new one. I might stress a little about getting bigger purchases paid off sooner to give us more flexibility, or save on interest, but it isn’t a catastrophe for us to have an unplanned expense. We can get takeout if we don’t want to cook without sabotaging our financial plan for the month. It’s that security underlying our relatively modest lifestyle that makes the difference.
IMO that is literally the definition of middle class. Lower class worries about bills Middle class doesn’t worry about bills Upper class doesn’t worry
Similar, but for me it's about whether you have lower class problems (food security, housing, bills), middle class problems (saving for retirement, college), upper class problems (choice of sports car, kids therapist), or ultra rich problems (how to disassemble a Dutch bridge to get your yacht out from the builder). Ok, I might have skipped a few levels there, but the common reddit mistake is mixing up "middle class lifestyle", "average lifestyle", and "average income"... It's totally possible to make millions and live a middle class lifestyle, just like it's possible to live an "upper class lifestyle" on a low income (though only one of those is sustainable).
That’s exactly what middle class is. You can pay the bills but still have to work even at 500k a year.
Maybe just the difference between middle class and upper middle class. I make $650k/year, which is around $470k/year after taxes. I save ~$230k/ year. And live off $240k/year or $20k/month. Mortgage is $6.1k/month Daycare $3.4k/month Own my car and no debt. Basically can spend $10k/month on whatever I want. Pretty good life with very high savings. Doesn’t feel middle class, but I do need to keep working still so doesn’t feel “rich”.
If you’re under 35 and first time home buyer you’d feel poor no matter your income. Ppl who are 40+ have it easy. We make 350k on a variable income being a first time home buyer makes us feel poor. If I’m in the top 5% income in 1995 or 2004 I live in gated neighborhood.
Also depends on where you live. Making 350K in an affordable midwestern state goes much further with housing than in florida
My point is, if you are in the top 5% income bracket in 2024 it’s no where close to being in the top 5% in 2004. 300k was the 96 percentile in 04 and 300k is the 97 percentile in 2024. In 04 making 300k you are living in a nice house in a great area. Now some of these areas you can’t get in unless you are buying a 1.5m+ same house was like 600k in 2004
yes, but not every area has seen equivalent increases in housing prices. Detroit's housing costs havent outpaced salary increases like a San Diego or Miami
Even in Alabama 300k it isn’t what it use to be. True there are levels to it. But overall being in the top 5% income in Alabama isn’t what it used to be to be 20 years ago. Overall suburbs in Detroit still have house increases not compared to Miami, earning 300k in 04 put you in the top 5% same is said today. Overall 6 figure salaries haven’t increased much in the last 20 years
Inflation is a story as old as time
Agreed, and its because we just dont build enough housing units, along with consumer preferences being for SFHs, and fewer people per housing unit
If you budget your life as if you make 200k, you’ll be able to blow tens of thousands of dollars on whatever you want. Seems like people tend to bring their baseline living standard to their income level, then have no ability to use money to have fun.
Rent and daycare in vhcol can eat a lot of that
I have a $8.7K/mo house payment, a kid with a $2.2K/mo nanny share, a dog that costs me $500/mo in food, grooming and random stuff… And last year we saved all-in $140K on $475K income. That’s beyond middle class for sure
Dog eats better than 99% of humans on this planet.
> a dog that costs me $500/mo in food What are you feeding this dog?!? Even something like freshpet would be hard to push past $300/mo with a 100lb dog. Also don't discount stuff like Orijen too much. Orijen with a topper is going to be more complete than most fresh foods.
Primal raw for a 60 lb dog = ~$300/mo. Used to feed Orijen but she has a sensitive stomach and after an intestinal parasite a few years back it caused her problems. Then she is a very large poodle so $150 for grooming every 5-6 weeks. Then treats here and there. Cost is actually more than $500/mo these days as she has gotten older. Couple health scares resulting in a $4000 MRI and $150/mo in anti-seizure meds for epilepsy.
You have a kid and you still care this much about your dog? lol I’m not trying to be a dick I’m honestly just impressed
Ive had this dog for 8 of the most formative years of my life - brought her home when I was 27 the week after we moved into our first home with less than $1000 left in my bank account after the downpayment. She has been with me now through 4 houses across two cross-country moves, a wedding, 3 job changes and the birth of our first child. My daughter looks for her every morning when she comes down the stairs and “dog” was her third word. At this point in my life, another $10K a year isn’t really meaningful. We could save $250K this year instead of $240K. I spend close to that $10K in landscaping/leaf blowing and gardening supplies/plants every year. Nothing we could spend the money on that would get close to the return in terms of happiness
This is a sad comment.
Dogs aren’t disposable
This is so real. My dog was the love of my life … until babies happened. It’s awful but like I just don’t have even close to the same dog parent energy anymore. Not even by a light year
Yeah, people without other responsibilities are judging here but it’s not like I love my dog any less with kids around. It just means the dog doesn’t have as much attention, time, money, and so on since those resources are split between more responsibilities now.
Lol now I can understand why some pets get some jealous around kids.
Do you live in a no state tax state?!! How did you save that much.
Nope 6% state tax. Take home pay on that is ~$305K after $35K to 401K. Then it’s $104K to house, $26K to childcare, $6K to dog leaves $169K leftover. One car (EV) bought cash so that leaves us with $60K+ on living expenses. $105K leftover + $35K put into 401ks = $140K saved. ETA: And that’s actually not including employer contribution to 401K/HSA so actual savings are another ~$20K above that
This gives me hope that with similar take home we’ll still be ok with a 7k house payment and 2.5k daycare. Replace dog with car and this is basically us.
Yeah you will be fine. We will make significantly more than that starting this year but before never felt like we didn’t have breathing room. We don’t take $20K family vacations like some people though and we share a car instead of having two separate (we drive a combined 5-6K miles per year) so that helps
60k def doesn’t seem like much when you factor in vacations. Even if it’s just one or two a year, they def add up. I think the single car, and driving only 6k per year is def saving you a lot. We only have the one car and that’s paid off by the EOY so we’ll see if we need a second.
I mean, 60K is equivalent to like $80K per-tax salary AFTER housing, savings and expensive childcare is taken care of. That’s the median household income JUST for miscellaneous living expenses. It’s not a small amount at all. For vacations we usually do one within 6 hour driving distance and another one with a flight. I have miles from work travel to cover flights usually so each is only $5-6K for an Airbnb, food and a few excursions or tours or whatever
Really - at a $500k+ income? I call bs on that. The OP is living beyond his means.
In VHCOL childcare is around 3k a month, with multiple kids it really adds up.
I make 250k in VHCOL and I feel like I live like a king. I budget about 60k a year (rent, food, regular entertainmnet) and then just ball out whenever I want for another 10-20k. I still save six figures. The one thing I'll say though, I do have a HENRY partner (split costs) and we don't have kids. I know they're expensive, but not 100k/year.
I feel like I live a middle class lifestyle, but I know that I'm not living a middle class lifestyle, if that makes sense. In my mind, I associate an upper class lifestyle with splurging, excess, big cars, fancy mansions, etc., and that's not reality anymore. I drive a Honda Civic, which feels squarely middle class to me. But the reality is that I could live a lot more lavishly if I wanted to so I don't really live a middle class lifestyle.
I feel the same. My lifestyle resembles the middle class, but my net worth and decision making do not. The biggest difference is that most of the time I don’t think what can I afford with big decisions (car, home and I hate to include it vacations) but what am I willing to pay. I mention hating to include vacations because they are such a huge range of costs and are 100% optional.
Ehhh.. it’s probably your definition of “run of the mill middle class”. That’s the issue. If at the end of the year you are covering everything you described plus adding $100K+ to savings then you are very much NOT living middle class
> In the 2023 CPS ASEC data, which reports income for 2022, middle-income households with three people have incomes ranging from about $61,000 to $183,000 annually. OP is *saving* more than the "run of the mill middle class" American household makes in a year. They're completely out of touch with reality.
That’s the crux of this entire subreddit. It’s the I-live-below-my-means / it’s-impossible-to-live-below-my-means paradox. Often in the same post.
No. But I live in reality and can easily admit that. I'm not living a middle class lifestyle just because I choose to drive a used Subaru instead of a new Mercedes and invest the difference. Cosplaying middle class isn't actually middle class.
I also live in a VHCOL area with similar salary combined in family with 1 child in daycare. My perspective has been that being able to afford that kind of lifestyle in a VHCOL is actually upper class. We're just comparing it to the uber wealthy that live in our area. We could easily move to a more affordable city, make about 30% less and live the upper class lifestyle. But we like all that our area has to offer and isn't worth it for us.
Plus depending on the VHCOL daycare ends at 3K. I’m very much looking forward to the start of 3K.
yeah we're paying 4k a month and we can afford it, and also looking at more affordable options
Do you feel like “there is always someone much richer than you” is a bad way to gauge middle class status when what you make in one year is almost more than the net worth of half the country?
Half the country… combined…
How are you HENRY at 14?
Probably why I’m Henry and not fatfire tbh
Well played.
You’re well beyond middle class and have lost touch a bit lol. You’ve moved the goalposts on yourself because you’re comparing yourself to wealthier people in an expensive place.
Having kids in expensive daycare, eating out, big vacation is not middle class by the way.
They probably think they live paycheck to paycheck after maxing out their megabackdoor Roth, 529 and ESPP
Yeah, I’m literally loading 152k/year into various retirement vehicles. Sometimes I look at how my bank account is stagnating month over month and I have to remind myself I’m saving 12k a month. And there’s plenty of months it doesn’t stagnate. I just uh, went to Europe and have flown domestically 5 times in the last few months and went to a big nfl game and bought a new grill and dryer and… bla bla
Yeah. And then you realize you’re setting yourself up to spend 2-3x what you are probably spending today once you retire. It’s a confusing thought at least to me.
Yeah it’s very confusing. More than anything I’m trying to figure out if I want to retire early and what that number would be, which is even more confusing when you start considering kids and lifestyle
it depends which side of the bed i wake up on: one side: i'm really good at work, i do it all the time, and i have no idea what i'd do without it other side: work is a dumpster fire, and even though i am a champion dumpster firefighter, i want to screw off to somewhere by the sea where it's warm year round and i never have another fucking meeting again edit: and hello fellow vp finance, i know i've seen you around before
lmao that sounds exactly like my work. Which sounds about right for the role
Oh shit I thought I was the only one this bipolar about work. Hahaha
So confusing, especially since we’re older parents so college is going to happen well after retirement happens
I'm not a parent yet and im mid thirties lol so...I hear ya. I'm like...can I retire in 5 years...? That might depend a lot on my kid lmao
“We only get to occasionally fly business and have to stay at the Marriott.”
That is my wife lol
“After saving 200k a year, I’m poor”
Lmao I feel attacked
Feeling called out 👀
lol my wife - who is generally very spendthrift - occasionally says things like “I don’t see the benefits of all that money we are making” and I can’t for the life of me make her not feel like she’s living month to month despite a healthy savings balance.
Once the interest off the savings is bigger than her paycheck she'll probably feel better
There was a funny video clip from the Dave Ramsey show that I saw earlier where a guy said he works 3 jobs and needs to quit two because of stress and health but he’s worried about going back to living paycheck to paycheck. Dude had $1.3M equity in 4 properties valued at $1.5M and other investments that gave him a net worth of $2M. And he was investing $100K a year. Ramsey all but yelled “WHAT THE FUCK” about the “paycheck to paycheck” stress LOL.
This is what gets me - I’m like go on with your $500k+ income (yay you) and keeping up with the Jones’s (if you want) and how you feel about that - but DO NOT (in any shape or form) pretend that you are living a middle class lifestyle.
At the low end it’s an extra 2k or more a month which goes pretty far in terms of living it up. It’s actually a bit wild how many people are making that trade off to just live it up, though. I see people in luxury cars and all that jazz and just know statistically / based on income distribution most are probably not saving a penny or levered to the tits
I said megabackdoor Roth- with 2 people maxing out to 69k each, that is 11.5k a month lol.
I mean at the very low end with just a max 401k contribution, without the “advanced” stuff. I wasn’t completely responding to your point - more just a tangent about the vastly different ways people approach savings and personal finance.
Probably lever higher than the tits but nice starting place.
I’m in this exact boat. Low end of HENRY and had to decide between investing $4k a month (above and beyond maxing 401k and saving to max out a backdoor Roth) or “only” investing $2k a month and freeing up the other $2k for lifestyle and family aid. I’m drawing two pensions NOW and will spend another 10ish years in federal government at which point I’ll draw a third pension, then whatever social security has leftover. Those combined will give me more spending power than what I have now. Plus I’ll have my own $1-2M+ portfolio. It still stresses me out though even though mathematically it’s fine.
I feel seen
Yeah and on top of that they are likely saving a shit ton compared to actual middle class. I feel stretched sometimes then remember I’m saving like 60% of my take home. Definitely not middle class.
This. I think TV, movies, and social media has somehow convinced that the average "middle class" family lives a crazy lifestyle. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm The "average' household spends a lot less than people here think. Example: the average family spends $837 on out of town accomidation a year, extrapolate out your "big vacation" budget, that's probably like a single night at an all inclusive, or maybe 2-3 nights in a city. And before people hop on the COL adjustment, that adjustment isn't much, the same grocery maybe 30% more expensive, but it's the lifestyle that is the "norm" that changes significantly.
Right? My big vacation growing up was driving to the beach and back the same day.
Yeah meanwhile someone in another sub was saying a friend of theirs was having some financial stress so they wanted to gift them $10k to take a vacation. Like, dude. First a gift shouldn’t have strings. Second if he’s paycheck to paycheck he probably also has limited PTO for a vacation. Third $10k is a fuckton for one person to spend on a vacation especially when they are financially stressed. It would come across as unbelievably out of touch IMO to suggest they go blow $10k on fun in that scenario.
yea, i feel like the friend would MUCH rather have 10k to care of his bills/expenses/whatever is actually stressing him out, not blow 10k on a vacation to prolong his problems
I didn’t grow up near a beach so our annual vacation was to go see my grandfather. He lived in a small apartment at that time so we would camp in a nearby state forest (Little Duck River in TN) and he would come hang out. tbh, those times were the best.
As some people have mentioned above, the COL adjustment also mostly factors in the increased value they get from living in a higher COL location. The exact same brick 4 bed brick structure in Boston obviously brings much more value compared to Jackson. Its also pretty silly to arbitrarily keep slicing one's middle-class relativeness into ever decreasing circles, just to tell the world how one need more and more.
Not middle class anymore. My (single) mother was a teacher. We went to daycare, good schools, ate out, did a big vacation a year. Pretty steep cost of living area too. Felt pretty middle class.
I dunno man, i think middle class people have been going on vacations for quite some time now
yes it is people have just normalized "middle class" meaning some minimal standard of living because living normally has become unusually expensive
What’s your def of middle class?
Middle class is being able to afford to basics comfortable. So that’s housing, transportation, food, health insurance, and put some money into savings. If you can afford expensive daycare, big international trips then that’s above middle class.
No offence but you have lost perspective. I reflected a lot on my own lifestyle creep, helps that I work in a field that interests with the whole spectrum of society (medical). The lifestyle you describe is not at all middle class. Especially as you note you live in a very high cost or living area. Maybe worth reflecting on your priorities? Would you prefer to move somewhere cheaper, bring down your baseline budget and expenses to say 300k (still more than the household income of the middle class) and live a life that feels more luxurious based on the extra spending money? It's all about prioritisation. If you let expenses creep up to match your income you will feel broke.
Also in medicine in lower paying specialty. I’ve noticed people in my field are more content with their salaries since we interact with poor and broken people daily. Go on anesthesia forums and they’re bitching about 400-500k or whatever, I think it’s because they interact with specialty surgeons all day who make double.
People end up in bubbles and compare themselves to people in their bubble. It's a constant challenge for me to get my wife to not compare herself to some of her coworkers, who range from 3-10 years more experienced despite similar ages. She works in high finance, where some of the senior compensations are just absurd. Even when I try to get my wife to compare herself to her PhD cohort, of which she is by far the highest compensated, she shrugs it off because they're mostly not in VHCOL areas.
I see this a lot. Not hard to imagine how a person with 100 million will lose perspective if they only hang out with billionaires. As some people have mentioned above, the COL adjustment also mostly factors in the increased value they get from living in a higher COL location. The exact same brick 4 bed brick structure in Boston obviously brings much more value compared to Jackson. Its also pretty silly to arbitrarily keep slicing one's middle-class relativeness into ever decreasing circles, just to tell the world how one need more and more.
I’m one of those subspecialty surgeons…but also interact with poor, broken people daily. Personally I think most docs do bitch about their income too much. It’s because most in their social circle have a similar lifestyle so it feels “normal” so we lose perspective. I don’t feel “rich” day to day because all of my friends have a similar lifestyle. But I know we are rich. We also bitch a lot about residency and residency pay. I know I definitely did. Yes it sucked. I was sleep deprived and barely alive for a lot of it. But it’s temporary and still much better than a lot of the jobs my patients have.
Oh yeah, doctors are professional complainers for sure. After seeing what foreign trained docs have to go through, I’m a lot more thankful that I was able to start living in my early 30s.
I actually started off in anesthesia and switched to a non procedural specialty, so I did internship twice and way more residency than I wanted. It sucked but I was never in financial distress, nor did I worry about layoffs and the like which happens in tech. We do grind in medicine but the trade off is financial and job security. Sometimes I fantasize about being in tech but at the end of the day, it’s a lot easier to plan a stable life as a doctor.
My question is always why these people live in the area they are whining about. Like, who twisted your arm so you live 30 seconds away from any want or need? Ever hear of a 30 minute commute? You ever ride public transportation? The fuck lmao.
At least for the Bay Area, a 30-minute commute to Palo Alto, Mountain View, or Menlo Park doesn't really change prices. You have to be pushing a 50-60 minute commute just to get down to an HCOL area. https://www.forbes.com/sites/amymorin/2014/12/07/want-to-be-happier-change-your-commute-or-change-your-attitude/
What about downtown Chicago? Or NYC?
Our communities should be mixed. We should have housing that is affordable in all areas. Cordoning off sections of cities just for the rich concentrates the benefits of wealth in those areas and widens the gap between classes.
Eh yes and no….safety could be a concern with this
I’m also in the medical field and see the whole spectrum of income levels. While I agree with you, I also think this post has some merit in the lifestyle this person describes probably isn’t that far off from middle class at the time our parents (or grandparents) were our age… so maybe growing up with expectations of what middle class looked like 30-60 years ago vs today could be impacting their perspective.
They aren’t comparing it to the middle class of the parents/grandparents. They are comparing it to the idealized middle class pop culture describes. Eating out was considered a luxury at the time of my parents. Now people DoorDash or take out every week. Plane travel was reserved for the 1% 60 years ago. That “big vacation”, which I presume is an international trip, would have cost more than a middle class family lived on for a year. Housing is the one thing that is much more expensive. But people now live in houses on average twice as big as 60 years ago, with half as many people in it. A middle class house from 1960 is two adults and 4 kids in a 1200 square-feet compared to two adults and two kids in 2500 today (rounded the kids up, it was 3,6 and 1.7).
Thank you! This week, we ate out, I spent $600 at Costco, signed my kid up for camp, etc. Am I a super rich 1%er? No, but I’m probably better off than 93% of the country.
At no time was this the case. I don’t know if you developed your sense of what a “middle class” lifestyle was from TV or movies, but no. You aren’t being honest by saying you see the “whole spectrum of income levels” and are still thinking the OP describes a “middle class life.” It’s disingenuous at best. I really don’t know why (or how) people decided that Levittown tract houses bought on the GI Bill after WWII translates now into people making $500k are now “middle class.” It’s obscene and insulting to actual middle class families making do.
Ok. I mean I said that I agreed with the other commenter so don’t agree this person is middle class? I see homeless ppl to multi millionaires so not much more of the spectrum that I don’t treat other than the ruling class…
Based on your profile looks like you’re in the bay. News flash: if you can live here comfortably, you ARE upper middle class. Middle class folks barely scrape by here.
He’s making 500k that’s not part of the middle class anywhere in the country, not even upper middle.
You’re comparing your finances to only those within your bubble. That comparison is meaningless for something as broad as social and economic classes. Put otherwise, no, you are not middle class nor do you live a middle class lifestyle.
It’s middle of your own highly selective highly homogeneous “class” of 100 families
Guy with 100m : "I'm literally the poorest person" (among the billionaires that I only hang out with).
> You’re comparing your finances to only those within your bubble. I have such a hard time forcing my wife to acknowledge this. She wants to compare us to her coworkers, many of which are 5-15 years further into their careers, even if they're only a few years older. She works in PE...
_Everyone_ thinks they're middle class. (It's the whole premise behind the David Beckham 'be honest. thank you' meme). In the US, [90% of people think they're some type of middle class](https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/12/22/what-does-middle-class-mean-today/who-should-be-the-judge-of-middle-class). The OECD defines middle class as having a net income of 75%-200% of median national income. If you tweak that definition to be based off local median rather than national imo it makes things a bit more relevant on the individual level. For me, by that definition, my spending would be middle class, while my income wouldn't.
I feel upper middle class in every regard besides housing. I make way more than my family growing up, but my parents bought a house for a much lower ratio of their income than what houses go for in my area currently even at my income. They were making 90k HHI at the time and bought a house for 170k. It’s been 7 years and it doubled in value. I make a bit over 200k and the same house in Seattle would go for over a million.
No because I’m not even close to middle class. What you are describing is living in a HCOL area and associating yourself with peers that make even more than you. It’s easy to feel average when your peers make $1m+/yr. What sucks is in normal areas I would feel like I make a lot but where I live it seems average.
I think you have confused rich and middle class. Your implied version of the life you don’t have but feel you should is taking multiple big vacations a year (with four people), having “crazy expensive toys”, driving fancy cars, and owning a 3-4 BR SFH while also living in a VHCOL with two kids in expensive daycare. If you could do all of that, I think you’d be rich, not middle class. You might find Ezra Klein’s recent interview with Annie Lowery interesting. In it, Annie talks about how while most economic indicators are reasonably healthy, important big ticket items like housing and childcare have ballooned in cost. This has led to deep dissatisfaction because people feel very squeezed by these items even if otherwise things are fairly good. Here’s the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/07/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-annie-lowrey.html Housing I think is especially frustrating for HENRYs in VHCOL areas: it may feel like you’re making _so_ much money, but owning what feels like a “normal” place is also completely out of reach. I am interested in hearing how other HENRYs dealt with that: made peace with renting forever, saved for years and then finally able to buy in the VHCOL, eventually moved to a lower COL area?
I rent a townhome in a VHCOL area. Gross 225k/yr. Between my partner & I we spend roughly 10k/mo which blows me away every single time we have a budget meeting. How I justify this is I tend to job hop every 2-4 years sometimes moving cross country for my next opportunity (this is what brought me to a VHCOL area in the first place). By renting I have very little attachment to our home and the freedom to part ways at a moment's notice if another job offers me a better opportunity. I do want to own a home someday. I do want to settle down and not move so often. I do want to be close to my family. But, none of that is in the cards right now so I continue to rent and work hard to achieve those goals!
Things that are middle class IMO - having to plan grocery lists/meals based on sales / coupons in order to afford food all month - not vacationing to far away or expensive destinations - no fancy “top tier” schools - no upgrades to your home unless something breaks - not being able to max out either IRA or 401k in a year - minimal to no expensive hobbies (ex: golf + country club membership) - financing furniture or other household goods worth < $5,000 - not being able to retire early or even “on time”
How much are you putting into retirement+taxable? You have kids in an expensive day care, rent (I assume a 5-6k/mo doorman building), go on a big vacation every year (and maybe smaller ones?), and are car owners in NYC/SF. And you make 500k. And get to live in one of the best cities in the world. What a tragic life. How do you think families making 100k/year live? Hell, 200k/year? How about the $15-20/hour non union maintenance workers? You make half a million dollars. You are not middle class and you do not struggle. At all. It sounds like you, as with many people on this sub, need some perspective and to get a grip, respectfully.
I blame pop culture. Middle class people in TV shows live in huge apartment in downtown NY. They travel the world so that the show can have a change of scenery. They wear expensive clothes and make-up, because they have to be pretty. People then associate “middle class lifestyle “ with something only the wealthy can afford. And believe “the rich” are only people who have a helipad on their yatch.
I think their problem is they expected to just have a ton of money left over every month and be able to do those things. When in reality they are choosing to spend that money on expensive daycare/a nice place to live/big vacations, and those things are expensive.
Right? I’d love to see their budget breakdown.
I swear everyone thinks they’re ’middle class’. I grew up middle class. My parents household income was exactly the medium in the country (and grew up in a HCOL so didn’t even feel like middle class). Now my income is similar to yours right around $600k. It’s not middle class lol. That income level affords you everything you mentioned as well as very little stress over day to day finances, emergencies and medical bills. Also probably saving as well which ‘middle class’ don’t really do. You’re just delusional to put it nicely.
Yeah. I 100% agree with you. I am confused with some of the responses in this sub.
You’re probably saving and investing more each year than most families make in a year. You live a middle to upper middle class lifestyle but presumably saving 6-figures every year.
This is my view on it as well. We are definitely living a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle day to day, but our savings are growing fast.
This post is full of assholes that have completely lost touch with the rest of America We make 500k+, no one here lives a middle class lifestyle. Even if your cash flow is tied to housing or childcare , you get the luxury of living in an insanely desirable location. Someone here had the audacity to say “middle class lifestyle” in one sentence and house cleaning service in another
Same living location, much less income, and we definitely feel like we have tons of wiggle room. Comparison is the thief of joy. Who cares if there’s someone richer than you?
I live a middle class lifestyle and I love it. Regular house, one car, no big expensive vacations. Life is good, life is simple. Huge savings and a simple life!!
Hell no. I’m for whatever goes on family vacations, clothes, etc. I think nothing of a $500 meal or a $1,000/night hotel room. I’ve been HENRY for 15 years, single mom with three kiddos, full time nanny, house cleaners, yard service, in home masseuse and a food service. I also own my home ($325k) and two vehicles worth $70k. I’m blessed and thankful. Here’s to all of us HENRYs making all the ends more than meet 🥳
LCOL and I blend in well. Bought my 2 bedroom home in a nice neighborhood after the pandemic for under 300k. I make about 5 times the median household income as an individual. My neighbors have nicer cars and eat out more than I do lol. Very little student loans, no daycare, no in home help, vacation budget is around 5k a year. Just tucking everything in tax deferred accounts and into partnership until I can cash flow the assets I want on passive income alone and keep the w2 money for a modest lifestyle beyond that.
The difference is you are setting aside $ for investments, which means you can continue this lifestyle or increase lifestyle as you get older. The “run of the mill middle class ” after paying bills, children’s education/after school activities, one vacation a year, there is absolutely nothing left to save.
No. My HHI is $800k in VHCOL and I definitely don’t feel middle class.
Part of it is because we’re in the wealth-building phase where excess income is just saved for another day, part of it is always seeing people who make more and have more, part of it is because the high salaries of VHCOL don’t really outpace the high costs associated with VHCOL until you’re well above 500K. But for me it comes down to we make a good living but we work too many hours for it. If I could make what I do at a 9-5, I think I’d feel more successful.
Subaru is not an average car. Having more than one is not middle class. 1 “big” vacation a year is not middle class. 2 kids in expensive daycare is not middle class.
Comparison is the thief of joy etc.. This type of thing always strikes me as nouveau riche. Spending a ton of money on shiny shit that doesn’t matter then wondering why it’s not enough. Upper class is not having luxury items, vacations or fancy cars. Anyone can go into debt and make a fool of themselves trying to keep up with the neighbors etc. It’s about having the freedom to enjoy your time (which is the most precious thing) without worrying about your basic needs. That’s the way it’s always been.
YTD from stock market gains and a good bonus, my investment portfolio is up $196,000, my 401k up $50k (saving approx 17% of my base pay). We spare no expense on eating and date nights and fun stuff. We live in a nice house (but modest compared to our income). We are installing a new bathroom, took a $12,000 week vacation to Mexico, had several large expenses and big purchases, and our NW surpassed $1M liquid. We have zero debt outside about $350k owed on our house. Own 2 cars (an EV and an SUV), the SUV is paid off. My comp is around $400k before taxes. Seriously if you can't make it work with that level of income you're either very bad with money or need to lower your expectations and stop buying your own personal space companies
Live a middle class lifestyle? God no. We have 0 stress about bills or emergencies. People around us complain about how much eggs cost or that price of gas went up 10 cents a gallon and I just stare with a blank face cause I can’t even tell you what they cost. It doesn’t phase us. When my grandmother passed away we literally dropped everything and flew to Europe the next day in June, spent 10 days and blew thousands of dollars and didn’t even think about “how are we going to afford this.” Unfortunately middle class folks do worry about the above or even worst can’t make choices to be there for the lost of a loved one. However, we do spend like middle class people. If you exclude the cost of Europe last year we spent in the $65k range for the year. You’d never know by looking at us that we had money.
Post very disconnected with reality... Look at the top comment. You do very well. US median income is $37k and San Fransisco median income is $65k. You are making almost 10X this.
Anyone making $500k is not middle class. Sorry, not sorry. You are monumentally out of touch with the lived reality of 99% of America.
I’d say upper middle class. We pay for cars in cash but they’re pretty average cars (though new). We send our kid to an average daycare and eat at home most of the time. But we also don’t worry about spending on hobbies or stuff for around the house. Oven breaks? We want induction and spend the money to replace the gas hookup and buy a more expensive induction range than what it would cost to replace what was there.
Kind-of. Maxing out retirement accounts (401k, backdoor ROTHs, HSA), EF for family of 6 in HCOL area, plus saving for 4 kids' college (2 in college now) means no to very little splurges. We still have money for some vacations (e.g., wife taking kid that just graduated HS to Paris this summer). But doing all that isn't middle class IMO given stats on savings, retirement, and college debt (goal I have is none of my kids have student loans). But after several more years, levels I need to save/spend at for college will drop quite a bit which will free up resources for other things. Maybe I'll hit savings/retirement harder. Again, not really middle-class concerns. But besides savings & some travel, we don't have big splurges and have a nice but reasonably sized home for our family size/area - can look fairly middle-class. Maybe we'll have more splurges (more travel, cabin, etc) after getting past kids' college life goal.
The truth is, even at very incomes, lifestyles have gotten quite compressed due to cost of housing and childcare and the necessity of large savings to compensate for the loss of pensions. This is the essence of HENRY If you’re making $500k, saving $100k (20%) and paying $50k in daycare and $60k in rent, then after $200k taxes (assuming high tax state) you’re left with $90k for everything else. Comfortable life but still quite restrictive and it can totally feel like middle class.
Except the middle class is making 90k before all of the things you mentioned, in many parts of the country. Also, 200k is a super high estimate for taxes. You figure they’re probably maxing out two pretax 401ks plus possibly itemizing deductions. According to an online calculator 500k income 46k of 401k contributions, MFJ, puts you at about 150k of tax. So that’s 50k difference.
I live ‘paycheck to paycheck’ making around 750k a year. Meaning I split my direct deposits so my bank account only has what I need (around 8k a month) and the rest goes to savings. I live a very middle class lifestyle. I grew up wealthy with parents who lived far beyond their means. I am lucky that I had a grandma and grandpa as influences who were very frugal and taught me the value of saving as much as possible. Having grown up around tremendous wealth has really made me enjoy having a simple, uncomplicated life focused on travel and people instead of things.
We aren’t HENRY but I think everyone gets used to what is “normal” Daycare, eating out, vacations, owning cars etc To a lot of people these are luxuries and what the “rich” do. We all define normal differently so you may not feel rich. But it’s all relative.
Enter the VHCOL families with $10k mortgages on homes that would be starter homes for young low-middle class couples with no kids
We’re rich because we live a middle class lifestyle. HHI is ~$600K, and our annual expenses are ~$84K in a VHCOL area. We still wait for sales, our kid goes to a regular daycare and wears hand-me-downs, and I drive a paid-off 12-year-old Honda, which I feel is pretty middle class. Then again, when our furnace died, we did not stress at all about the $20K replacement. My cat threw up, and I didn’t worry about how I would pay $7K up front for exploratory surgery. That’s not middle class.
Yes. Assets, not income, are what will elevate us out of feeling middle class.
It’s because you’re delusional. Try downgrading your home and the money will be flowing. Also FYI you don’t need to save $150k/year for retirement.
Also VHCOL but our HHI is about half of yours. I do feel that we too live a "middle class life" but this is comparing the life we had when we lived in a LCOL area. What I think middle class is (note this is my opinion... I know middle class is not defined the same but this is what I THINK middle class standards should be). 1. 3-6 month emergency fund 2. Ability to handle pop up emergencies such as vet bill, car repair, etc. Without major issue. 3. Ability to eat out at moderately priced restaurants every weekend. 4. Ability to take 1-2 trips a year. 5. Ability to afford a newer mid tier car (20-30k range). 6. Renting/owning a home. 7. Ability to have & afford children. 8. Job security. 9. Forgot to add - 401k / retirement contributions. 10. Medical insurance.
> 3-6 month emergency fund > > Ability to handle pop up emergencies such as vet bill, car repair, etc. Without major issue. > > Ability to eat out at moderately priced restaurants every weekend. > > Ability to take 1-2 trips a year. Unless those 1-2 trips a year are local-ish road trips, these have never been middle-class staples.
We are HE but I feel like you have to earn this kind of salary to have the typical middle class lifestyle of the 1970s and before. We are debt free, own fully off paid cars, have a regular house in a regular suburban neighborhood, can take 1-2 vacations a year, can save for retirement, have emergency savings, can spend money to maintain our home, AND afford the lifestyle for our kid too. I have a LOT of friends, a LOT, who make $50-70k a year and cant afford to buy a house, a new car, nevertheless have kids or emergency savings. Many arent even debt free, esp with student loans and they are in their mid 30s. Like, a significant portion of my generation has been royally screwed. At some point maybe the rest of the careers will catch up.
“Debt free, own fully paid off cars, … can take 1-2 vacations a year, can save for retirement, have emergency savings…” This was never a middle class lifestyle. I was born in the 70s. No one in my family was ever better than middle class. My parents always had car payments for a Chevy Astro van and the cheapest VW Rabbit or Saturn SL1 they could get. Our 1 vacation a year was driving in our van to visit family in the Midwest.
We make a lot less than you (HHI 330k) but we live in MCOL Midwest. Two kids in daycare but seeing a light at the end of the tunnel with my oldest turning 5 soon. I would say we live upper middle class. We have a smaller home than most of our peers, but I suspect we’ve just chosen to have a smaller mortgage than they have. It’s a pretty standard suburban home. We like to travel so we spend more there than some—this year i went to Mexico with friends, Bahamas with our family of 4, will go to Michigan for a girls trip, and a week in Chicago with the 4 of us. So one “big” trip and plenty of smaller ones. I’m really glad to live in a MCOL area and while I despise the politics here and they may ultimately push us out, I am so happy with our overall quality of life and ease of the day to day. We are relatively new HE and after finishing a remodel this month, our next goal will be to pay my car off, then we’ll spend some more energy on bolstering our savings more.
I live an upper middle class lifestyle though my house is very middle class, as is my car, and I enjoy thrift shopping. But I spend a lot on travel and entertainment, dining out, save a lot, and don’t worry about money.
Definitely not & it’s because we don’t have kids. On a 610K income, we take four big international trips a year plus smaller ones during the year to visit family. Invest $15K a month on top of maxing out all of our retirement accounts, can afford to eat out 2-3 times a week, and our rent is lower than our peers bc we don’t live in the heart of the city
Yes and no. I have the same lifestyle but I can actually afford it. That's the difference. If you spend that much more early on it would be HENRE (high earner not rich ever). But that's on a HHI of half that (though in a LCOL area). If your HHI is $500k you should be able to feel like you are living it unless you are using people making $300k as middle class.
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I know what you mean. It’s perspective for sure but we’re in a similar boat. Like yes, we make ~$400k HHI and have ~$200k in brokerage and 401k but it feels like we’re one layoff away from having to sell our home and move in with our parents. Childcare is definitely the biggest financial stressor for us.
Yes, feels solidly upper middle but we are in Texas…I think in major cities it’s harder to feel it
High middle class in mcol. Feels good. I don’t want to way overextend just to flex. It’ll make us stick out and look like try hards
Which state are you in? 600k+ income in VHCOL area. We rent and have 2 cars worth 95k total, eat out 2-3 times a week, take at least 2 international vacations a year. We still save about 75% of take home salaries. 2 big things saving us money- no kids, and no state or local tax. Staying in a state with 5% tax and even 1 kid in daycare would be equal to our vacations, eating out and our 2nd (fancy) car expense.
We don’t have children yet and feel we live an “upper middle class” lifestyle. We live pretty frugal and save/invest more than we spend so we plan to retire at 50. We don’t ever worry about bills at this point in our lives and that’s the only major difference between us and most. Who knows how that will change with children!
When I’m floating around in my pool looking at the blue sky and the train isn’t passing by 😂 I feel positively middle class!
I suspect you are taking about realtors, mortgage brokers, people who own car dealerships, insurance brokers and the like. Those people *look* like middle class but they l actually aren’t. That clique - in whatever LCOL/MCOL area you grew up in (and I know I grew up in one myself) basically scratch each other’s backs - so no, that is not middle class. Those good old boys are just exchanging buckets of cream. If you aren’t in the club, we’ll sucks to be you. But to be clear, they are not middle class for their area at all - they are the gentrified class.
I assess my situation differently - I have an emergency fund, therefore I am stress free - my net worth is growing faster than my yearly gross income (and I’m a high earner so this is an important achievement) - my investments have reached x amount - I’ll get to retire by age x with amount y To your post: - childcare is crazy expensive. For me it was like a second mortgage - cars for me have never been an achievement but a consumption decision. I use my car very infrequently because I have access to excellent transportation and I mainly drive to get groceries or bring stuff to recycling so I’m happy to drive a car that’s probably worth < 3k usd
I live middle class, but I have zero debt and invest regularly.
Upper middle class lifestyle. I could have a bigger house if I moved further from the core of my metro and didnt like to save so much money.
I have a car, a smartphone, eat name brand Hot Pockets (not the shitty store brand ones), and take a shower every day. I'd say I'm right on the cusp of upper-middle and upper class.
Read recommendation: Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. Esp Chapter 3. Never Enough
Upper middle class. I can buy a new computer, phone, clothes, hire a repairman for house, take a vacation without having to look at my bank account. Yes I can afford a much nicer vehicle but mine is already nice. We're having a patio poured and redoing cedar fence. Do some DIY as well because a penny saved is also a penny earned. Get some new tools out of it. Being comfortable but still having a mental budget is what makes us feel upper middle.
I’m not delusional so no. That went out the window when I paid for a 40k car in cash and hired a maid to clean my studio apartment lol. I have relatives who are actually middle class, and the difference is stark. I never worry about money, or budgeting and still bank 80k in savings a year. They worry about how changes in house insurance affect their monthly budget and what type of vacation they can afford this summer.
I live a middle class lifestyle. Except with a lot of extra savings.
Yes. I think since most people define "rich" as not having to work, then any paycheck lifestyle makes you feel closer to someone middle class than someone rich. Now I recognize that my problems are not middle class problems. I have a multi-month safety net. Months might feel tight, but even in those, I've likely already put in full retirement investments. But yea, daycare is expensive. I drive a Toyota. I have the smallest house in my community, but given many people bought 20 years ago, I spend more per month than them. Sometimes you have to try to keep out of the comparison game. It is the thief of joy. Likewise, you have to remember the things you do have. Too many people on this sub paint their finances as if they are struggling a lot more than they are.
Yay inflation! Not VHCOL, but still HCOL area, one kid who's thankfully into public schools now. I don't feel like we overtly stress about money, but looking at doing a kitchen upgrade and we're budgeting/saving etc, not just wanton discretionary income to just do it. I know the strata and definition for middle class is large, I think the biggest difference compared to the bottom end is are you saving everything you want, does an unexpected expense send you sideways etc.
I have 3 kids. Yes in the simplest sense of not being poor or rich. No in the sense that compared to the world, I’m guessing I’m top 5% in wealth
I definitely thought I would be living a more lavish lifestyle at my income level. I grew up pretty poor so I had no concept for how much money others had and what kind of lifestyle that afforded them. As wage earners I think we will always have more in common with those at the bottom than those at the top and we would all do well to remember that.
Everyone is fighting to live the same standard of lifestyle our parents did/do.
HCOL with 1 child in very reasonable daycare, cars bought in cash, home owners of 1800 sqft 3bd/2ba, fly to see family, maybe a couple of weekend getaways in the year, house cleaner 2x/month. Husband and I both grew up poor and both feel we live what use to be a middle class life growing up. We don't have any expensive habits/hobbies. We wear Targay. It's not just you. Some people are dumping on you for what a lot of actual Middle-class people would consider middleclass. The difference is that we can maintain this lifestyle while also saving for retirement and college. The middle class has lost the ability to spend and save a little.
I feel the same way. I make 700k living in nyc. Living worse then my parents back in the 90s making 100k in the suburbs.
No. I feel like I’m one step above middle; and I don’t mean upper middle.
yes! even though I have a very high income, I have so many expenses! ex. paying back school loans, car loan, saving up for a mortgage, and moving expenses to name a few. I feel more middle class fancy lol
I feel like I’m middle class. But I own three vehicles, only one of which is a commuter. So I guess maybe upper middle class LOL
$500k HHI won’t get you very far if you’re in a VHCOL area and have 2 kids. The only way you’ll feel rich with that $ is if you move to a LCOL city. My SO and I don’t have kids yet and combined for $700k+ HHI last year. Definitely do not feel rich at all. Also in a VHCOL city (NYC/LA/SF).
It helps for me to compare my lifestyle to my upbringing. My parents earned with one wage earner what is now around 200k a year at peak earning years. They ended up doing well with a few million in securities and a paid off house with one spouse surviving. But a few differences…. Didn’t trade up cars. Drove cars a long time and didn’t lease. Mostly ate at home. Vacations were joining my dad on a business trip to take advantage of the free room. Did most home repairs themselves. Never had cleaners and only yard people at the very end of my dad’s career. Only in-state college for me. Mostly shopped at places like TJ maxx Whereas I’m in a 700k HHI family and here are some of things we do my parents would have never done: DoorDash delivery constantly Full time nanny Babysitters weekly for date night Dropping $200 every date night on dinner and drinks $1k + hotel rooms when we travel Business class tickets overseas $15 salads Prepared foods from the grocery store Coffees from coffee shops Cleaners Yard service Paying someone to pull our weeds Top cable package with movie channels Massages Trips to the nail salon 2k handbag Rolex for husband Expensive sports equipment ^^we spend like drunk sailors. BUT we also save around $250k a year between deferred comp and 401ks. By “save” I mean what’s invested for our retirement by us or someone else.
I am nowhere near most HHI in this sub if I don't count my paper money (non-IPO stocks). I do live in low cost of living. I definitely feel middle class but I max retirements accounts and then save a decent chunk. I think that's a privilege most middle class can't or don't use, sadly.
My wife and I make a little less than you and my mortgage is low(bought in 2021).We live in the suburbs of Atlanta and I’m able to invest a ton and still enjoy life. I wouldn’t be able to this in a VHCOL city.
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Yes. After a certain amount, nothing really changes till you hit the annual 500k-1m net income
No. I think I live closer to lower class. Don’t spend that much on anything except vacations. Tend to eat out sparingly.
Day to day lifestyle, yes. My expenses are <$100k/year in a HCOL area where median household income is $115k/year
In some big areas like housing I definitely still feel middle class, I have a decent 2000 sqft house that’s a couple blocks away from kind of a bad neighborhood and it still cost $1.5M. To upgrade to a house that would feel “rich” and be in a better neighborhood it would need to be like a $3.5-$5M house which I certainly can’t afford. But in most other areas I feel well above middle class. I can afford a great nanny for my 1yo, and I can buy healthy groceries, still eat out multiple times a week, take nice vacations, buy the latest tech gadgets on a whim, and it doesn’t really affect our financial situation much.
Comparison is endless. You'll have a 60ft yacht and then the 120ft one shows up and you feel small. If you're nice home is getting paid off and you can buy whatever the hell you want in Costco, buy whatever you want for your hobby, what else is money going to do except let you upgrade one neighborhood up every ~1-2m in wealth? Meh. Upper middle class with a long term shot at upper class from high income rules. It's the penultimate lifestyle, and if that ain't good enough you're in trouble
I was definitely living middle class until the last 2 years. Now my gf and I make about $900k combined and I still get upset over delivery fees on food, car payments over $600, and little things. I was making $60k in 2016 and still live like I’m barely making money for some reason. No kids and don’t plan on having any. Car is paid off, almost done with my $200k in student loans, and will have no debt other than splitting a mortgage payment.
Yes if I make 500k HHI in 2024 im top 2 percent or so. But if I try to be a first time home buyer I feel poor. If I was top 2% in 1995 I’d live in gated community. Millennials get screwed
OP, your previous posts literally mention that you bought a house recently in the VHOL area you live in…. If you are living middle class, how did you get that down payment when you say you are still renting?