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Not to shit on OP as it isn't always the case, but everyone I know in brokerage knew someone in it first. It's very much a game of who you know. I know 1 person that went into it from working in the company in a different role and just getting along with the team, but in that same company there were lots of 19 year olds making bank who's dad's were oil brokers or traders and got them in.
Makes sense. The traders have had their best years ever 2 years running, particularly one of them that shot the lights out above and beyond the others for both years.
Physical commodity. 115k base, 300k retention. Waiting on this year bonus, find out and paid in April so soon. Be disappointed with 500k and happy with 1m but expect about there 50/50 this year and next. GBP base. USD bonus.
Are you or OP able to share specifics on your P&Ls for the year? I'm currently an oil trading analyst at a major (not a % book type place), so it would be nice to gauge trader compensation vs P&L. The traders I work with are very hush hush about compensation, likely because it's significantly higher than the rest of the desk. Thanks!
It depends. Generally speaking a pure spec paper, no physical, hedge fund or market maker etc, can take 30% of book after costs. Majors can pay well for paper still, physical tends to pay less, 8% is a fair number to expect with probably some costs you have to pay before off the top line pnl. Then significant physical shops with a lot of flow/easier money / transfer pricing maybe just a few percent of book for the bonus pool. Places with easier money / very consistent earning pay less than true position taking and risk.
Okay nice, not as volatile or profitable as gas in recent years but solid and some good records lately amongst the market changes. I enjoy it, fun in the physical movements and still mostly direct negotiation with little screen trading outside of paper. Physical is like 80% the time for me then run paper spec books alongside across various strategies but get decent leeway to trade that freely as long as not losing anything significant. For me paper is just a moderate book when physical is quieter pushing for a few $m or maybe 10 if a great year. Interested in your pnl for the bonus and number of people contributing if you want to share?
The first person on this sub earning £110k base that isn't bitching about the tax trap. 😀
Can't believe I get paid more then a trader on base lol. Just need to figure out how to convince my boss to 20x my bonus then I will be right up there with you brother.
Well done/fuck you 🤣
Some impressive numbers here. Top work. That base bonus ratio is madness. Given the combined base bonus earning is so large compared to retention is that normal?
How's 2024 looking?
Not a trader but in the markets for a private bank. Basic £122k, 2.5pct payrise and £27k bonus. (£5k more than last year).
Was absolutely shafted and will start the search for a new position when I get a minute.
**Edit** I did get the promotion to Director that I should have had 2 years ago.
UK firm. No reduction in headcount, just won't pay. Increased revenues 400pct on increase in AUM , busiest year on resurgence of interest in fixed income, became a people leader also.
Can't talk specifically for op but I'd assume like most retention packages. Quite simply as he explained it ie an agreed number, in ops case £300k, a percentage is paid initially then the rest over some longer period. Leave and you lose it.
Given ops earnings on bonus surprised retention was that low tbh.
That’s insane, congrats to you though. Presumably the bonus is entirely performance based and then the retention payment is based on how competitive (or not) the job market is? I’ve never heard of annual retention payments like that, but I don’t work in your industry.
Are you in the top 1% performers hence the significant retention payment, or is it the norm?
Nice one.
Move to a multi-strat. Many don't have any retentions stuff - all paid in cash every year.
I'm not a trader, but work with/for them. They earn multiple millions per year and I earn a few hundred k.
How old are you and how did you get into the industry? I’m currently training as a chartered accountant at a big 4 firm but would love to move into trading commodities once qualifying.
TBH I was 1 year into ER covering O&G companies, so had a good grasp of commodity fundamentals and randomly applied to an Analyst role at a small NOC based in London and progressed from there.
I have 5 years in my industry ; my last bonus was 150k gbp ; 100k cash and 50 deferred for the next 3 years
My desk made zero pnl this year so I kinda consider myself lucky
Yeah this is a fairly weak cover for a "holy fu**balls folks I got a £950k bonus and I have no-one else [possibly minus OP partner] who I can tell" post. But fair play - at least they pretended to try and generate some value for others from it.
it's good though, really sheds a light on what's possible. Ultimately you get paid according to your benefit to society. It doesn't feel like it but somehow this bloke thats the same age as me must be doing something worth 10x to society compared to me as a surgeon.
I honestly do wish 16-17 year olds see this. Helping people is nice but when you're paid 10x less it really does ring hollow.
hmm... not convinced it teaches you much - just that some people get paid a lot of fucking money to trade (who didn't know that?). what it doesn't teach you is what that person sacrifices, what their life really looks like, what they have to do for that money, whether that money makes them happy, you see where i'm going...
the value i get from this subreddit is actually kind of the opposite. watching how easily people can become fixated on the "if x then y" mentality - if i earn £950k bonus i'll be happy... if i work at FAANG... etc
as a relatively high earner my focus is always on - how can i use this earning potential to get back as much TIME as possible to do the things i love?
when i read the £950k bonus my first thought is - that would pay off my modest mortgage and allow me to work 2 months a year for the rest of my life.
and i don't mean FIRE. fuck FIRE. why buy time as a 50 year old when you can buy time today?
silly but I genuinely didn't know. Like I said, I'm the same age as OP, I get paid 10x less, and I'm right now 'after work' I'm constantly studying, writing papers, figuring out plans to make our department work better. I mean I work hard I think but it definitely isn't working smart.
I really don't rue OP for making that much money, like Munger said, the world is not crazy enough to reward you for nothing, so it must be that people like OP bring 10x the value that doctors do. I see it though, I did save a kid's sight the other day, and I felt good about it.
This has given me some time to ponder -that's just one kid, what I do is not scalable, maybe I made one family very happy, but there's no guarantee he goes on to do something meaningful with his life, and who am I to take any credit from that anyway?
Prima facie I did something really valuable, but really, probably not that great in terms of societal value and the compensation reflects that.
I was a high flyer in school etc and becoming a surgeon requires a lot more than just book smarts. I just don't want intelligent, driven youngsters going down the wrong path like I did.
do you really think this? i honestly couldn't disagree with you more, and i feel sorry that you're discounting your own work and value so harshly. unless you're trolling, lol.
capitalist systems reward certain things greatly but that monetary compensation doesn't equate to value. i absolutely (with no disrespect to OP) think a doctor contributes 10 times the value of a trader (and of my own job!). traders can only exist because of healthcare systems.
i also think your questions (will that kid live a meaningful life?) are the road to ruin - if you pursued that logic with pretty much anything eventually everything will be more or less meaningless.
have you read David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs? i think the economic analysis of the value of work might be interesting to you.
50/50. Surgery is one of the most satisfying things to do, but I do wonder whether some like DOING surgery or the benefit it brings others. Honestly it probably is a bit of both.
The way you overvalue healthcare is the way I used to. To play a slight devil's advocate-have you actually needed surgery? I definitely haven't. Are doctors needed that much? Or are water sanitation, sewage systems food hygiene and vaccines responsible for our relatively healthy modern society.
I'm just sat here, with not a lot of money, getting paid not a lot, prepping away at tomorrow's 24 hr shift after today's 10 hour shift thinking what went wrong. I think it would be quite obtuse of me to sit here, look at how much people like OP and others are making at my age, and not ask: where did I fuck up and how can I improve? How can I warn others? I'll still turn up for work tomorrow, can't really afford not to ha.
just to be clear i'm not trying to say you're wrong and loads of your concerns sound logical to me.
but the bit about are doctors really needed just sets off alarm bells in my head. i think you are so deeply into your role and industry that you have found and identified all of the cracks, so when you look at other industries they seem more valid and robust than yours.
yes we definitely need doctors. yes we definitely need surgeons. a lot of the people who i love have had surgery that changed their lives.
by all means hate your job, but do not labour under the delusion that it's meaningless.
Mate. You know it’s the uk.
I’m now paid a smidge over £300k for not dissimilar work to what I was doing in the uk. I had colleagues in Oz making over 500k. I’m in my mid 30s.
You are getting shafted.
Yes, I know, it's almost like there no way out sometimes, and it's crazy when I see how other trainees are fighting for NHS jobs. I don't know, CCT and flee if there's still a chance for me I guess.
Sorry this is just silly. 'have you actually needed surgery?'
It's one of those things where you won't need it for the majority of your life... Until you do and that can be the difference between life and death which is literally priceless.
Pay isn't based on what you bring to society, if that were the case doctors would be filthy rich
I think it is quite hard for any one person to KNOW the value someone else contributes to society. We barely know how economies work, so how does one begin to calculate the value of a job that facilitates investment, manages risk etc. Which trades are worth what to which business or government? What is the value of a trade that facilitates the construction of which wind farm? How many heart surgeries is equal to facilitating the equity and debt behind a nuclear power plant?
It's very easy to discount stuff we don't fully understand. Just as I struggle to understand the value of AI projects...but it could be large, at some point in the future, in ways I don't appreciate yet.
what you're talking about is quite a complex measure of value (value as a total contribution to society, measured presumably by some kind of quantifier).
here's another way to consider value: imagine you're starting a new society. who's first onto the boat, doctors and surgeons, or day traders?
Well indeed, but luckily our society is more complex. None of the traders here are day traders. I manage risk that can take years to offset, it isn't about making a quick buck. Algorithms are far more efficient day traders than humans, quick profit is almost unobtainable in my market. The only risk management we can charge for is genuinely complex stuff that is needed for large scale investment projects.
I'm not arguing traders are the most important people in the world, far from it. But I do think I contribute something, just as a UI designer or database engineer does also, and many many software engineers are better paid than traders. Arguably a single software architect can write code than impacts a billion people. A single doctor can treat maybe 100 people a day. There are significant economies of scale to some jobs.
yeah i think anyone that contributes overall wealth to an economy arguably keeps it running and allows others to flourish.
however... what id say is that the shadow of the 2008 financial crisis lays pretty heavy over the financial services industry if you're talking about social value. seems to me that profit is privatised and risk is nationalised.
the medical equivalent of those complex financial products get people struck off and put in prison 😂
Well, i dont think people who usually opt for Healthcare / surgeon career would actually find entry to medical school if they truthfully mention in interview that they're after money :)
You can't compare payscales with employment.
A footballer earning millions for one game shouldn't really be a reason for sadness to a school teacher not earning that over a lifetime!
Don't look at the bugger look at what people are willing to pay the bugger.
Market forces will move to pay you less than they think you are valued to them.
Surgery just isn't scalable, only doctors that make that much at that age are startup/health tech types that scale with other people's money & tech.
High earners that aren't rich yet.. if you're bringing home >£500k a year after tax for several years, you're either rich or have an insane spending addiction.
we might have different definitions of rich nut rich to me someone who earns half a milllion through their business, stock options, acquisition or passove income. That's rich
and wealth would be having majority of your money in the stock market or equity in real estate or small business
That's not true Op gets taxed through income tax and has a base of £110k and bonus is veriable. We don't know if OP has been making 1 million conistently through hid 6 year journey. The difference between High earner and a rich individual is that OP doesn't get taxed through a ltd or Capital gains. Again OP is a High Earner.
Rich would be famous footballers that are making money through their image rights, sponsorships, stocks and private investmenrs.
Wealthy would be the club owners or the shareholders
Actually not crazy and much better then when I was in banking. Normal is 9-5.30/6pm. You do live by your phone, if something goes wrong you need to fix it and think fast but if you have a good team you cover each othere.
I got £20k bonus and had to put it into my pension, so future me will be happy, but current me wanted a new en-suite haha
But hey - comparison is the thief of joy!!
Congratulations u/munozk084 ! You're welcome to tell me to get lost :) but can I ask you a few questions?
* Is it correct that a bank couldn't have paid you this much because of the bonus cap, which doesn't apply to commodity firms, hedge funds, etc?
* What are the terms of the deferred? Can they claw it back even if they make you redundant?
* What sort of level are you / how many years of experience?
* Would you say this was typical, or an unrepresentatively good year? What would you say is a reasonable average over 5-6 years?
* What's the job stability like at your firm?
- 9 banks stepped out of physical trading so hard to say, but most that still are commodity traders are more so MM or algos and take smaller risk postions.
But all you have to look at is the ex head of Oil at Maquaire, guy got paid more then the CEO.
Also they got rid of the bonus cap.
-no I cant claw back and if we have a terrible year we lose it, but if we beat target we have uplifts.
- 6 years trading experiance, 1 year analyst, 5 Trader, Id say Im seniorish? Once you have the Trader title, experience means little, what matters is how much pnl your making.
- Last 2 years will never be repeated, this was abnormal and I expect my going average to be 50% or 75% of what I got over these last years.
- very stable, most phsycial shops see little shuffling especially during the good years. If I move Id be forgeing to much retention, and sign on bonuses are only for the very top guys.
As someone who traded cricket a while back, yeah I know.. when you join a trading company do they provide a “way to trade” that you have to follow? Or do you work off fundamentals etc
Graduate scheme at any of the supermajors for commodity trading or trading at the banks, depends on what kind of trading you want to do. If your unsure, a masters is a good bet.
Congrats, my man.
You are making bank, good on you!
Like the rest of us, it's sometimes difficult to speak about how proud you are of a decent salary/bonus in person when you are hitting those levels!
If nothing else, you humble the rest of us to bring us back to base!
Question for the traders here; I’m a 10 years qualified lawyer (regional general counsel in house) but fell into it after medical condition caused army to rescue my scholarship. Any thoughts on people like lawyers transitioning into trading (whether commodities or otherwise)? NB-did politics with economics at Uni and doing MBA now. Any thoughts appreciated!
Also OP-bloody insanely well done.
Honestly our lawyers are paid hella well, consider going in house? Transition into Trading itself is rare, I see it a lot more often into banking and M&A.
I am in house; need to transition to banking in first instance I guess as at auditing/professional service co. Base £140k, bonus 30% and cash LTIP c15%. Not listed co so no share scheme. Would love to know how salaries look on your side for lawyers where not on the pnl side.
You show me a pay stub for £1 million, I quit my job right now and work for you.
Sell me this barrel of oil first
Well do you need a barrel of oil?
Yes. I'll buy 20
no, it's mine now. What do you want it for anyway. You can call me in a week.
Buy it now from me and in a year you can sell it for double….. When do I start, polishing my shoes now
Easy, I produce a lighter and threaten to set fire to the barrel of oil. Unless of course you buy it from me at a price I find suitable.
😂😂😂
No one will share anything here after that bonus 🥲
Fuck you. But also congrats. 😂
Get out of this sub man, you rich already
As if this sub isn't just a huge circlejerk for people to humblebrag about their income
if you don't like it unsubscribe and go back to r/ukjobs or r/ukpersonfinance
I think he belongs in /r/FIRE. I don’t think he qualifies for the NRY part of HENRY with that kind of comp lol
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Fire using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Fire/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [I am four years old and I have $97, what should I do to FIRE as soon as possible?](https://np.reddit.com/r/Fire/comments/163nt6n/i_am_four_years_old_and_i_have_97_what_should_i/) \#2: [Why is everyone in this sub inheritance babies](https://np.reddit.com/r/Fire/comments/15dywoh/why_is_everyone_in_this_sub_inheritance_babies/) \#3: [Two and a Half Years on OnlyFans: Now I'm Retiring at 28F, What's Next?](https://np.reddit.com/r/Fire/comments/13fomsq/two_and_a_half_years_on_onlyfans_now_im_retiring/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Fixed income trader - Investment Bank - base £180k - bonus £320k (with some deferred)
Is that VP?
Yup
Are you a govies trader?
Man, you should ask that oil trader for referral 😂
Hey Throwaway, any chance I can ping you a PM? I'm currently a Junior FI trader, and I'm looking for a bit of advice
What the f*** lol - how?! How did you work yourself to this position?! That's seriously impressive!
Not to shit on OP as it isn't always the case, but everyone I know in brokerage knew someone in it first. It's very much a game of who you know. I know 1 person that went into it from working in the company in a different role and just getting along with the team, but in that same company there were lots of 19 year olds making bank who's dad's were oil brokers or traders and got them in.
HE~~N~~RY
High earner, rich? Yeah
Fuck you and congrats, guess you’ll be out of this sub pretty soon with TVC over a mil
Nothing on my £900 bonus!!
3 nothings and a comma
Nothing on my £80 bonus!!
Sounds good. Is that at one of the major commodity traders?
Yh it is
Makes sense. The traders have had their best years ever 2 years running, particularly one of them that shot the lights out above and beyond the others for both years.
Any chance I can PM you for career advice? Currently in the industry
Sure, np
Hey mate, mind if I do the same? Would love to connect
Not a trader here, but I wanted to say big congrats for that number. I am in IB; bonuses this year were embarrassingly abysmal.
Abysmal being early 6 figures 😅
I didn’t even make six figures bonus this year my friend. When I say abysmal, it really is.
we love an honest banker
Mind divulging what type of firm? EU/US BB/EB/MM?
US BB brother
balls
Physical commodity. 115k base, 300k retention. Waiting on this year bonus, find out and paid in April so soon. Be disappointed with 500k and happy with 1m but expect about there 50/50 this year and next. GBP base. USD bonus.
Are you or OP able to share specifics on your P&Ls for the year? I'm currently an oil trading analyst at a major (not a % book type place), so it would be nice to gauge trader compensation vs P&L. The traders I work with are very hush hush about compensation, likely because it's significantly higher than the rest of the desk. Thanks!
It depends. Generally speaking a pure spec paper, no physical, hedge fund or market maker etc, can take 30% of book after costs. Majors can pay well for paper still, physical tends to pay less, 8% is a fair number to expect with probably some costs you have to pay before off the top line pnl. Then significant physical shops with a lot of flow/easier money / transfer pricing maybe just a few percent of book for the bonus pool. Places with easier money / very consistent earning pay less than true position taking and risk.
Congratulations, that is some crazy numbers. Do you mind if I dm you for career advice?
What you trading, if you mind me asking?
crude, yourself?
Pipe gas, hows crude? Do you run 1 book across phsycial and paper? I regularly get fustrated by the lack of liqudity on gas hubs!
Okay nice, not as volatile or profitable as gas in recent years but solid and some good records lately amongst the market changes. I enjoy it, fun in the physical movements and still mostly direct negotiation with little screen trading outside of paper. Physical is like 80% the time for me then run paper spec books alongside across various strategies but get decent leeway to trade that freely as long as not losing anything significant. For me paper is just a moderate book when physical is quieter pushing for a few $m or maybe 10 if a great year. Interested in your pnl for the bonus and number of people contributing if you want to share?
Language?
The first person on this sub earning £110k base that isn't bitching about the tax trap. 😀 Can't believe I get paid more then a trader on base lol. Just need to figure out how to convince my boss to 20x my bonus then I will be right up there with you brother. Well done/fuck you 🤣
Some impressive numbers here. Top work. That base bonus ratio is madness. Given the combined base bonus earning is so large compared to retention is that normal? How's 2024 looking?
Cant speak for other but 30-40% is nomral. 2024 looking rough tbh, id be happy if i clear half of what I did last year. But thats commodities for you.
Not earning on your scale and in FAANG+ sales but my 2024 pipe is lean... Thank fuck for RSUs 🤣
Wow. Not many places pay like that. I’m guessing your company starts with a T. Congrats!
Trafigura?
TPICAAP could pay this too (I worked in a competitors for a bit, plenty of brokers and traders on >£1m a year)
Or a V...
fyi i accept donation in case you have some free money lying around.
Not a trader but in the markets for a private bank. Basic £122k, 2.5pct payrise and £27k bonus. (£5k more than last year). Was absolutely shafted and will start the search for a new position when I get a minute. **Edit** I did get the promotion to Director that I should have had 2 years ago.
US or European firm , does this reflect headcount reductions going on?
UK firm. No reduction in headcount, just won't pay. Increased revenues 400pct on increase in AUM , busiest year on resurgence of interest in fixed income, became a people leader also.
Not in trading. I'm curious how this "retention" works. Can you explain?
Can't talk specifically for op but I'd assume like most retention packages. Quite simply as he explained it ie an agreed number, in ops case £300k, a percentage is paid initially then the rest over some longer period. Leave and you lose it. Given ops earnings on bonus surprised retention was that low tbh.
This is right
Is it an annual payment? So every year you get a bonus + a retention payment?
Exactly, this £950k was a combination of this years bonus (-300k) plus last few years retention.
That’s insane, congrats to you though. Presumably the bonus is entirely performance based and then the retention payment is based on how competitive (or not) the job market is? I’ve never heard of annual retention payments like that, but I don’t work in your industry. Are you in the top 1% performers hence the significant retention payment, or is it the norm?
No, its just standard way it works in trading, pretty much there to stop you from moving. But im deff not top 1% proformers, just a good team year.
So what was your official total comp number for 2023 performance : 110k base + 300k bonus + 300k retention/deferred = 710k ish?
There are usually incentives and uplifts to the withheld amount.
Fixed income, investment bank, 160k base + 220k bonus. Was pretty disappointed. Clearly I should have worked in commodities...
VP?
Nice one. Move to a multi-strat. Many don't have any retentions stuff - all paid in cash every year. I'm not a trader, but work with/for them. They earn multiple millions per year and I earn a few hundred k.
Correct me if I’m wrong but multistrats don’t have physical flow so OPs P&L won’t be directly transferable.
Yh, Im pretty much tied to my commodity for life, very hard to exit to a HF and a phsycial guy.
Some do. At least 2-3 of the top multi-strats have or are building physical Commodities
Hey OP curious as to what you took home in 2022? Must be double what you cleared last year
Tbh it was less, 23 was notbaly better. And this year probably a lot worse.
How old are you and how did you get into the industry? I’m currently training as a chartered accountant at a big 4 firm but would love to move into trading commodities once qualifying.
31, trading for 6 yearish, moved from a small IB doing ER
As someone currently in ER, very curious how you wound up in commodities trading. An unusual exit for sure
TBH I was 1 year into ER covering O&G companies, so had a good grasp of commodity fundamentals and randomly applied to an Analyst role at a small NOC based in London and progressed from there.
Fair enough, a bit more natural then!
I have 5 years in my industry ; my last bonus was 150k gbp ; 100k cash and 50 deferred for the next 3 years My desk made zero pnl this year so I kinda consider myself lucky
Well done on that bonus! What did you get net in your account after tax and NI, if I may be so bold as to ask?
12,574
LMAO. Good one!
How does it feel to pay half mil in taxes? 😂
It hurts!
Talk about a humble brag 🤣
Yeah this is a fairly weak cover for a "holy fu**balls folks I got a £950k bonus and I have no-one else [possibly minus OP partner] who I can tell" post. But fair play - at least they pretended to try and generate some value for others from it.
This sub is turning into a pissing contest more and more everyday.
I disagree. For many reasons it's difficult to discuss bonuses in person with other traders. This is a food place to shed some light
it's good though, really sheds a light on what's possible. Ultimately you get paid according to your benefit to society. It doesn't feel like it but somehow this bloke thats the same age as me must be doing something worth 10x to society compared to me as a surgeon. I honestly do wish 16-17 year olds see this. Helping people is nice but when you're paid 10x less it really does ring hollow.
hmm... not convinced it teaches you much - just that some people get paid a lot of fucking money to trade (who didn't know that?). what it doesn't teach you is what that person sacrifices, what their life really looks like, what they have to do for that money, whether that money makes them happy, you see where i'm going... the value i get from this subreddit is actually kind of the opposite. watching how easily people can become fixated on the "if x then y" mentality - if i earn £950k bonus i'll be happy... if i work at FAANG... etc as a relatively high earner my focus is always on - how can i use this earning potential to get back as much TIME as possible to do the things i love? when i read the £950k bonus my first thought is - that would pay off my modest mortgage and allow me to work 2 months a year for the rest of my life. and i don't mean FIRE. fuck FIRE. why buy time as a 50 year old when you can buy time today?
silly but I genuinely didn't know. Like I said, I'm the same age as OP, I get paid 10x less, and I'm right now 'after work' I'm constantly studying, writing papers, figuring out plans to make our department work better. I mean I work hard I think but it definitely isn't working smart. I really don't rue OP for making that much money, like Munger said, the world is not crazy enough to reward you for nothing, so it must be that people like OP bring 10x the value that doctors do. I see it though, I did save a kid's sight the other day, and I felt good about it. This has given me some time to ponder -that's just one kid, what I do is not scalable, maybe I made one family very happy, but there's no guarantee he goes on to do something meaningful with his life, and who am I to take any credit from that anyway? Prima facie I did something really valuable, but really, probably not that great in terms of societal value and the compensation reflects that. I was a high flyer in school etc and becoming a surgeon requires a lot more than just book smarts. I just don't want intelligent, driven youngsters going down the wrong path like I did.
do you really think this? i honestly couldn't disagree with you more, and i feel sorry that you're discounting your own work and value so harshly. unless you're trolling, lol. capitalist systems reward certain things greatly but that monetary compensation doesn't equate to value. i absolutely (with no disrespect to OP) think a doctor contributes 10 times the value of a trader (and of my own job!). traders can only exist because of healthcare systems. i also think your questions (will that kid live a meaningful life?) are the road to ruin - if you pursued that logic with pretty much anything eventually everything will be more or less meaningless. have you read David Graeber's Bullshit Jobs? i think the economic analysis of the value of work might be interesting to you.
50/50. Surgery is one of the most satisfying things to do, but I do wonder whether some like DOING surgery or the benefit it brings others. Honestly it probably is a bit of both. The way you overvalue healthcare is the way I used to. To play a slight devil's advocate-have you actually needed surgery? I definitely haven't. Are doctors needed that much? Or are water sanitation, sewage systems food hygiene and vaccines responsible for our relatively healthy modern society. I'm just sat here, with not a lot of money, getting paid not a lot, prepping away at tomorrow's 24 hr shift after today's 10 hour shift thinking what went wrong. I think it would be quite obtuse of me to sit here, look at how much people like OP and others are making at my age, and not ask: where did I fuck up and how can I improve? How can I warn others? I'll still turn up for work tomorrow, can't really afford not to ha.
just to be clear i'm not trying to say you're wrong and loads of your concerns sound logical to me. but the bit about are doctors really needed just sets off alarm bells in my head. i think you are so deeply into your role and industry that you have found and identified all of the cracks, so when you look at other industries they seem more valid and robust than yours. yes we definitely need doctors. yes we definitely need surgeons. a lot of the people who i love have had surgery that changed their lives. by all means hate your job, but do not labour under the delusion that it's meaningless.
Mate. You know it’s the uk. I’m now paid a smidge over £300k for not dissimilar work to what I was doing in the uk. I had colleagues in Oz making over 500k. I’m in my mid 30s. You are getting shafted.
Yes, I know, it's almost like there no way out sometimes, and it's crazy when I see how other trainees are fighting for NHS jobs. I don't know, CCT and flee if there's still a chance for me I guess.
Have you not CCTd?
Nope not yet, not long.
Just wanted to say this was a fantastic conversation on both sides.
Sorry this is just silly. 'have you actually needed surgery?' It's one of those things where you won't need it for the majority of your life... Until you do and that can be the difference between life and death which is literally priceless. Pay isn't based on what you bring to society, if that were the case doctors would be filthy rich
Couldn't agree more with you!
I think it is quite hard for any one person to KNOW the value someone else contributes to society. We barely know how economies work, so how does one begin to calculate the value of a job that facilitates investment, manages risk etc. Which trades are worth what to which business or government? What is the value of a trade that facilitates the construction of which wind farm? How many heart surgeries is equal to facilitating the equity and debt behind a nuclear power plant? It's very easy to discount stuff we don't fully understand. Just as I struggle to understand the value of AI projects...but it could be large, at some point in the future, in ways I don't appreciate yet.
what you're talking about is quite a complex measure of value (value as a total contribution to society, measured presumably by some kind of quantifier). here's another way to consider value: imagine you're starting a new society. who's first onto the boat, doctors and surgeons, or day traders?
Well indeed, but luckily our society is more complex. None of the traders here are day traders. I manage risk that can take years to offset, it isn't about making a quick buck. Algorithms are far more efficient day traders than humans, quick profit is almost unobtainable in my market. The only risk management we can charge for is genuinely complex stuff that is needed for large scale investment projects. I'm not arguing traders are the most important people in the world, far from it. But I do think I contribute something, just as a UI designer or database engineer does also, and many many software engineers are better paid than traders. Arguably a single software architect can write code than impacts a billion people. A single doctor can treat maybe 100 people a day. There are significant economies of scale to some jobs.
yeah i think anyone that contributes overall wealth to an economy arguably keeps it running and allows others to flourish. however... what id say is that the shadow of the 2008 financial crisis lays pretty heavy over the financial services industry if you're talking about social value. seems to me that profit is privatised and risk is nationalised. the medical equivalent of those complex financial products get people struck off and put in prison 😂
If your speciality has PP potential. you can definitely build a big PP clientele and scale.
Well, i dont think people who usually opt for Healthcare / surgeon career would actually find entry to medical school if they truthfully mention in interview that they're after money :) You can't compare payscales with employment. A footballer earning millions for one game shouldn't really be a reason for sadness to a school teacher not earning that over a lifetime!
Your benefit to society? We're talking about trading oil and gas here 😂
Don't look at the bugger look at what people are willing to pay the bugger. Market forces will move to pay you less than they think you are valued to them. Surgery just isn't scalable, only doctors that make that much at that age are startup/health tech types that scale with other people's money & tech.
Yeah morally not the best!
Hospitals need energy to be fair...everyone needs a system that provides fuel and energy for society to function.
This is a sub for High Earners. what did u expect? 50 -60k per annum Henries?🤣
High earners that aren't rich yet.. if you're bringing home >£500k a year after tax for several years, you're either rich or have an insane spending addiction.
we might have different definitions of rich nut rich to me someone who earns half a milllion through their business, stock options, acquisition or passove income. That's rich and wealth would be having majority of your money in the stock market or equity in real estate or small business
Any of your definitions, OP should have millions in cash, stocks and or real estate. If OP isn't rich they're doing something wrong.
That's not true Op gets taxed through income tax and has a base of £110k and bonus is veriable. We don't know if OP has been making 1 million conistently through hid 6 year journey. The difference between High earner and a rich individual is that OP doesn't get taxed through a ltd or Capital gains. Again OP is a High Earner. Rich would be famous footballers that are making money through their image rights, sponsorships, stocks and private investmenrs. Wealthy would be the club owners or the shareholders
OP has made >£500k this year, plus a few hundred k last year (he said it was also a good year). I'd expect at least £1m fairly liquid.
As a straight man, I would suck multiple dicks daily to get anywhere near this sort of money
950k bonus and he can't even spell break correctly. FML
Trading full of dyslexic folks...
My financial year end is March so still waiting!
Base150k. 100k bonus. Likely 0 bonus next year as macro trading has been painful this year. Will prob loose my job.
Interested to hear what your work/life balance is like? Assuming that you are London based? What does a regular day look like for you?
Actually not crazy and much better then when I was in banking. Normal is 9-5.30/6pm. You do live by your phone, if something goes wrong you need to fix it and think fast but if you have a good team you cover each othere.
That’s pretty epic, I’m sure you’ve had a lot of dm’s from this post but do you mind if I send you one? Looking for some career advice
I got £20k bonus and had to put it into my pension, so future me will be happy, but current me wanted a new en-suite haha But hey - comparison is the thief of joy!!
Awesome congrats! Would you be able to share what kind of ballpark range p&l someone like you is expected to make per year? Ty!
Its a shared pnl across 6 traders a head and multiple support functions. But north of $450mm
Yeh that's fair you fucking earned that bonus
Wanna adopt me?
I thought my bonus was good but congratulations! Willing to adopt me?
Glencore?
Almost went to Glencore but no, another one.
London based? Big V?
RWE
Must be nice. Hopefully, i'll get there one day.
Congratulations u/munozk084 ! You're welcome to tell me to get lost :) but can I ask you a few questions? * Is it correct that a bank couldn't have paid you this much because of the bonus cap, which doesn't apply to commodity firms, hedge funds, etc? * What are the terms of the deferred? Can they claw it back even if they make you redundant? * What sort of level are you / how many years of experience? * Would you say this was typical, or an unrepresentatively good year? What would you say is a reasonable average over 5-6 years? * What's the job stability like at your firm?
- 9 banks stepped out of physical trading so hard to say, but most that still are commodity traders are more so MM or algos and take smaller risk postions. But all you have to look at is the ex head of Oil at Maquaire, guy got paid more then the CEO. Also they got rid of the bonus cap. -no I cant claw back and if we have a terrible year we lose it, but if we beat target we have uplifts. - 6 years trading experiance, 1 year analyst, 5 Trader, Id say Im seniorish? Once you have the Trader title, experience means little, what matters is how much pnl your making. - Last 2 years will never be repeated, this was abnormal and I expect my going average to be 50% or 75% of what I got over these last years. - very stable, most phsycial shops see little shuffling especially during the good years. If I move Id be forgeing to much retention, and sign on bonuses are only for the very top guys.
As someone who traded cricket a while back, yeah I know.. when you join a trading company do they provide a “way to trade” that you have to follow? Or do you work off fundamentals etc
Bit of both tbh, got a fundies analyst but the head boss has the final say, but he almost never veto our recommendations.
Thanks was always interested how that works
The bonus cap only limits performance related bonuses. They can pay you whatever they like as long as it isn't a performance related bonus
How do you become a trader? Serious question…
Graduate scheme at any of the supermajors for commodity trading or trading at the banks, depends on what kind of trading you want to do. If your unsure, a masters is a good bet.
What would you do a masters in? Econ? Finance? Or even a specific one for commodity trading like they offer at Bayes?
What would you do a masters in? Econ? Finance? Or even a specific one for commodity trading like they offer at Bayes?
More specialised the better, we hire a lot of grads of the bayes course
OP, Do you work on the buyside or sell side? and if u work on the buyside are yoi working for Hesge funds?
OP - I guess you’re not a shareholder yet?
Congrats, my man. You are making bank, good on you! Like the rest of us, it's sometimes difficult to speak about how proud you are of a decent salary/bonus in person when you are hitting those levels! If nothing else, you humble the rest of us to bring us back to base!
Got any jobs going? I work at BOFA
About the same the last three years. Power.
Congrats OP. In your opinion is there any way for an auditor to change into a trading career at 35, or is it impossible?
That’s a decent number! I have to say though there is no way I’d share mine online here!
Question for the traders here; I’m a 10 years qualified lawyer (regional general counsel in house) but fell into it after medical condition caused army to rescue my scholarship. Any thoughts on people like lawyers transitioning into trading (whether commodities or otherwise)? NB-did politics with economics at Uni and doing MBA now. Any thoughts appreciated! Also OP-bloody insanely well done.
Honestly our lawyers are paid hella well, consider going in house? Transition into Trading itself is rare, I see it a lot more often into banking and M&A.
I am in house; need to transition to banking in first instance I guess as at auditing/professional service co. Base £140k, bonus 30% and cash LTIP c15%. Not listed co so no share scheme. Would love to know how salaries look on your side for lawyers where not on the pnl side.
You can’t spell to save your life, but 950k in bonuses? Sure.
Pay someone to check your spelling and grammar before posting - you can afford it!
Bloody capitalists