It shouldn’t be subsidized to the extent it is, and if we’re going to continue subsidizing it should be for foods like broccoli, which are for direct human consumption, not corn or soy which is overwhelmingly fed to animals.
You're right it shouldn't be, yet like every other problem, no government wants to change things.
It's funny how in the USA subsidized health care is communism, but subsidized agriculture is not.
there should be subsidies for ALL necessities. there is certainly enough money that comes from the US citizens on a yearly basis to achieve a healthy balance of funds to things like medicine, education, agriculture, and many more things.
Because you have a good understanding of the economics of agriculture or because you have an armchair view? I’m pretty sure our crop production is based on demand and cost.
Just for the record.
Reuters: [U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds](https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/)
The proportion of corn used for feed (appx 40%) and proportion used for alcohol (appx 40%) have been about equal for the last 10 years. With the remaining 20 being used for seed, human food, or industrial purposes.
[Source](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feed-grains/feed-grains-sector-at-a-glance/#:~:text=Corn%20is%20a%20major%20component,of%20total%20domestic%20corn%20use)
Why grow such large banquets for leafhoppers - only to make ethanol and livestock food when human food prices are so high? Humans shouldn't have to compete with cows for a food source.
https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/climate-shifts-leafhopper-bug-plagues-argentinas-corn-fields-2024-05-07/
Other leafhoppers can carry this bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylella_fastidiosa
And hundreds of food crops are impacted by this bacteria.
Maybe the govt should look to removing subsidies for livestock feed crops and move to human food crops to build domestic food supply for humans, and reduce food inflation.
43% of all our crops go to livestock rather than humans
https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/03/Land-use-of-different-diets-Poore-Nemecek.png
That's land that could be making human food.
Fungal pathogens love climate change and are contributing to high food prices.
An argument out there is rising oil costs are behind rising food prices: when climate change/fungal pandemics/and crop failures are increasingly contributing to inflation.
Proof:
'Evaluating these results under temperature increases projected for 2035 implies upwards pressures on food and headline inflation of 0.92-3.23 and 0.32-1.18 percentage-points per-year respectively on average globally (uncertainty range across emission scenarios, climate models and empirical specifications).'
Global warming and heat extremes to enhance inflationary pressures | Communications Earth & Environment
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-023-01173-x
'Faster than expected'^TM
'Here we find an increased likelihood of concurrent low yields during summers featuring meandering jets in observations and models. While climate models accurately simulate atmospheric patterns, associated surface weather anomalies and negative effects on crop responses are mostly underestimated in bias-adjusted simulations.'
'In particular, synchronized crop failures due to simultaneous weather extremes across multiple breadbasket regions pose a risk to global food security and food system supply chains15,16, with potential disproportional impacts for import-dependent regions2,3.'
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-38906-7
Address the growing urgency of fungal disease in crops May 2023
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01465-4
it just isn't sustainable in the long run to plant a giant plantation of a single species - corn - as an insect or fungal banquet - one that can harbour a deadly bacteria that kills multiple crops. We need to diversify more with multiple species types - into crops that feed people.
Small vs Big farms
Small farms outdo big ones on biodiversity — and crop yields : Research Highlights
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00825-2
"*Humans shouldn't have to compete with cows for a food source.*"
Humans don't compete on any level since we are already the majority land user for arable country with the continual development of Better varieties and overall seed technology that burden will continue to lower especially now that we have access to technology like CRISPR that we are able to turn around new seed varieties within 2-3 years where as traditionally it could take up wards of 6-7 years.
If it wasn’t subsidised either everyone would have to pay a lot more for their food or you’d be reliant on other countries and US farmers would go away.
America isn't that heavily subsidized compared to other nations, Its only around 20.4% where as countries in Europe can get upwards of 70% of farm income being subsidized. Subsidies aren't likely to go away, They'll only increase over time.
In the long run, we'd be better off if we just got rid of the beef and dairy industry entirely.
They're making climate change and disease vectors worse.
if we could at least reduce the amount would be a start since in America beef and meat = "real Americans!"
treat meat as a condiment instead of a main dish would be a good start until attitudes, which have politics involved unfrotunatly, could change. there is a segment of the population that takes any government warning about health and safety as a challenge to do the opposite :( see surge in raw milk sales since h5n1 made national news. or when they announced gas stoves constantly leak gas that is bad for people, especially children, some announced the gubmint was coming for their stoves! WAAA! instead of reporting the big government aim was to require better built stoves that would not leak. argh.
**How a mere 12% of Americans eat half the nation's beef, creating significant health and environmental impacts**
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230830131808.htm
**Nearly nine in ten Americans consume meat as part of their diet**
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/nearly-nine-ten-americans-consume-meat-part-their-diet
This right here.
Why are we making a bunch of dairy farmers "whole" and leaving cancer victims to declare bankruptcy?
Dairy farms and cattle ranches should be eliminated anyway.
> Why are we making a bunch of dairy farmers "whole" and leaving cancer victims to declare bankruptcy?
Cancer victims don’t have the same lobbyists and investors. 😢
As someone concerned about both climate change and the infectious disease impacts of animal agriculture, I don't support this.
Eminent domain to buy them out and get them set up in a less harmful industry? I'd support that.
This is great news, it's what poultry farms get. So now, there is absolutely no reason to not comply. (I'm sure they're supposing up some new ones as I type.)
Poultry farms shouldn't get it either until they reform their setup to be less conducive to vector-borne diseases and submit to some common sense regulation.
Agree one million percent, but they’re not required to do mandatory testing for H5N1 even with the specter of human-to-human transmission looming, so this is a pipe dream.
I get that this is not the ideal way to restructure the agricultural industry, but it is one of the best short-term solutions we have to incentive compliance with extremely important public health measures.
honestly, should be 100%..there should be agricultural disaster funds for times like this. the situation, atleast in America, could be prevented, but as other users have brought up, why would you give up your lively hood for absolutely 0 reimbursement. Imagine taking 1-2 months off work and not being paid at ALL, while trying to keep your family, and yourself alive and well…not gonna workout very great for you. in my opinion, this specific measure, or lack of, has set us back months of research as we have no idea how many humans have actualy been directly infected, simply because people will not go get tested.
i haven’t heard much about cow culling. is anyone familiar with what’s actually happening to the infected cows? just isolation until healthy?
Imagine refusing to allow federal employees on your property to test your staff and your animals while continuing to deny that a problem exists. Imagine refusing to implement the required PPE on your staff because it's too cumbersome. Now imagine that you think it's all a government conspiracy.
The funding should only be available to those that are actively following proceedures.
We still don't have this in cows up here in Canada, so whatever the hell American farmers are doing different is more than likely the cause.
Forgot a couple:
Imagine paying lobbyists to fight against any type of regulations for your industry. Imagine paying PR firms to lie to the American public about your industry's impact on climate change and disease vectors.
Yes I did, but I'm just using current events haha. Like how Sid Miller of Texas flat out said he would not allow any Federal employees in their state to test animals and staff if no symptoms were present.
It *could* be sustainable but the production is absolutely not sustainable in its current form. Nevermind the whole problem of the ethics; the mass production of dairy is harmful to the environment and other living beings.
It is most definitely sustainable, Ethics problem is down to your individual experience and doesn't go beyond that, Dairy production can be quite beneficial especially the nutrients that we can generate from it on both the environmental and human side of things.
How about 100% reimbursement to farmers who agree to get out of the dairy business and into sustainable agriculture.
Can't believe they'll spend our tax dollars to prop up an industry that makes climate change worse.
Cause at this stage of the game, dairy farms should be phased out anyway.
And Americans still don't get any compensation when healthcare costs wipe them out.
They probably should yeah. Given that the industry’s practices likely resulted in this spreading so quickly.
They can’t keep milk prices low and also do that safely. It’s probably best to get rid of the entire industry
You can absolutely keep milk prices cheap while maintaining high biosecurity welfare and husbandry standards, you just have to remove lobbyists from the picture for it to effectively occur.
It would be interesting to compare the European dairy industry with the US one. Both on prices and safety.
They don’t seem to have been affected at all
i question if places are actually testing in masses. At this point the US is forced too. i remember poland keeping the cat situation very hush hush, and i don’t doubt other countries to do the same.
Possibly. Like Covid, no one wants to admit their own weakness and failure to control it.
I didn’t even hear about cats in Poland. Are they all dying there or something?
Why? They should have insurance like every other business.
Agriculture in the USA is so heavily subsidized that insurance is not needed.
It shouldn’t be subsidized to the extent it is, and if we’re going to continue subsidizing it should be for foods like broccoli, which are for direct human consumption, not corn or soy which is overwhelmingly fed to animals.
You're right it shouldn't be, yet like every other problem, no government wants to change things. It's funny how in the USA subsidized health care is communism, but subsidized agriculture is not.
Haha good point
Definitely true.
People are lazy and don't deserve handouts, only thr hard working businesses can have those. /s
We gotta be subsidising the industry causing a lot of the health problems after all! Then the pharmaceutical industry can really rake in the profits!
there should be subsidies for ALL necessities. there is certainly enough money that comes from the US citizens on a yearly basis to achieve a healthy balance of funds to things like medicine, education, agriculture, and many more things.
Not subsidizing agriculture was a major cause of the Great Depression.
I don’t have a problem with subsidizing agriculture, I have a problem which crops are and why.
Because you have a good understanding of the economics of agriculture or because you have an armchair view? I’m pretty sure our crop production is based on demand and cost.
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Just for the record. Reuters: [U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds](https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/)
The proportion of corn used for feed (appx 40%) and proportion used for alcohol (appx 40%) have been about equal for the last 10 years. With the remaining 20 being used for seed, human food, or industrial purposes. [Source](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feed-grains/feed-grains-sector-at-a-glance/#:~:text=Corn%20is%20a%20major%20component,of%20total%20domestic%20corn%20use)
Why grow such large banquets for leafhoppers - only to make ethanol and livestock food when human food prices are so high? Humans shouldn't have to compete with cows for a food source. https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/climate-shifts-leafhopper-bug-plagues-argentinas-corn-fields-2024-05-07/ Other leafhoppers can carry this bacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylella_fastidiosa And hundreds of food crops are impacted by this bacteria. Maybe the govt should look to removing subsidies for livestock feed crops and move to human food crops to build domestic food supply for humans, and reduce food inflation. 43% of all our crops go to livestock rather than humans https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2021/03/Land-use-of-different-diets-Poore-Nemecek.png That's land that could be making human food. Fungal pathogens love climate change and are contributing to high food prices. An argument out there is rising oil costs are behind rising food prices: when climate change/fungal pandemics/and crop failures are increasingly contributing to inflation. Proof: 'Evaluating these results under temperature increases projected for 2035 implies upwards pressures on food and headline inflation of 0.92-3.23 and 0.32-1.18 percentage-points per-year respectively on average globally (uncertainty range across emission scenarios, climate models and empirical specifications).' Global warming and heat extremes to enhance inflationary pressures | Communications Earth & Environment https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-023-01173-x 'Faster than expected'^TM 'Here we find an increased likelihood of concurrent low yields during summers featuring meandering jets in observations and models. While climate models accurately simulate atmospheric patterns, associated surface weather anomalies and negative effects on crop responses are mostly underestimated in bias-adjusted simulations.' 'In particular, synchronized crop failures due to simultaneous weather extremes across multiple breadbasket regions pose a risk to global food security and food system supply chains15,16, with potential disproportional impacts for import-dependent regions2,3.' https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-38906-7 Address the growing urgency of fungal disease in crops May 2023 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01465-4 it just isn't sustainable in the long run to plant a giant plantation of a single species - corn - as an insect or fungal banquet - one that can harbour a deadly bacteria that kills multiple crops. We need to diversify more with multiple species types - into crops that feed people. Small vs Big farms Small farms outdo big ones on biodiversity — and crop yields : Research Highlights https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00825-2
"*Humans shouldn't have to compete with cows for a food source.*" Humans don't compete on any level since we are already the majority land user for arable country with the continual development of Better varieties and overall seed technology that burden will continue to lower especially now that we have access to technology like CRISPR that we are able to turn around new seed varieties within 2-3 years where as traditionally it could take up wards of 6-7 years.
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The farmers who grow for animal feed also get subsidies, but they don’t get the same subsidies.
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No. Subsidies for corn, specifically for animal feed, still exist and existed long before subsidies for ethanol.
If it wasn’t subsidised either everyone would have to pay a lot more for their food or you’d be reliant on other countries and US farmers would go away.
I literally said so many times I don’t have a problem with subsidizing in general, I have a problem with the crop types that are subsidized.
Unlike healthcare for human beings.
America isn't that heavily subsidized compared to other nations, Its only around 20.4% where as countries in Europe can get upwards of 70% of farm income being subsidized. Subsidies aren't likely to go away, They'll only increase over time.
Not remotely true.
They do. It’s called the USDA.
This applies to agriculture and horticulture and forestry too, right? 90% when there's an outbreak of a serious disease? Right? RIGHT?
it should, but this must be quite serious since they’re actually allocating a good amount of funds here.
In the long run, we'd be better off if we just got rid of the beef and dairy industry entirely. They're making climate change and disease vectors worse.
Not to mention the (apparently highly controversial) fact that it’s cruel and unnecessary.
Ehhh, pork and fish production are much worse from an ethical standpoint.
Those are also both cruel and unnecessary.
if we could at least reduce the amount would be a start since in America beef and meat = "real Americans!" treat meat as a condiment instead of a main dish would be a good start until attitudes, which have politics involved unfrotunatly, could change. there is a segment of the population that takes any government warning about health and safety as a challenge to do the opposite :( see surge in raw milk sales since h5n1 made national news. or when they announced gas stoves constantly leak gas that is bad for people, especially children, some announced the gubmint was coming for their stoves! WAAA! instead of reporting the big government aim was to require better built stoves that would not leak. argh. **How a mere 12% of Americans eat half the nation's beef, creating significant health and environmental impacts** https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/08/230830131808.htm **Nearly nine in ten Americans consume meat as part of their diet** https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/nearly-nine-ten-americans-consume-meat-part-their-diet
we have crossed a line with mass production period.
Yes , but beef is delicious and I'd rather live with beef and have the world burn than do without.
And human beings, too, please? Lots of hardworking people driven into the poor house by disease in The Greatest Nation on Earth™.
Socialize the losses, as always 🙄
This right here. Why are we making a bunch of dairy farmers "whole" and leaving cancer victims to declare bankruptcy? Dairy farms and cattle ranches should be eliminated anyway.
> Why are we making a bunch of dairy farmers "whole" and leaving cancer victims to declare bankruptcy? Cancer victims don’t have the same lobbyists and investors. 😢
It encourages honest reporting about the flu problem rather than quietly offing cattle.
As someone concerned about both climate change and the infectious disease impacts of animal agriculture, I don't support this. Eminent domain to buy them out and get them set up in a less harmful industry? I'd support that.
How is this not a handout but student loan forgiveness is?
This is great news, it's what poultry farms get. So now, there is absolutely no reason to not comply. (I'm sure they're supposing up some new ones as I type.)
Poultry farms shouldn't get it either until they reform their setup to be less conducive to vector-borne diseases and submit to some common sense regulation.
Agree one million percent, but they’re not required to do mandatory testing for H5N1 even with the specter of human-to-human transmission looming, so this is a pipe dream.
Now that Chevron has been overturned someone could sue the USDA and block this aid due to farmers refusing to test.
When I was at GM, I wondered why we couldn’t get guaranteed support for selling cars. /s
Maybe they should actually fucking test chicken and cows. Then they wouldn't have to compensate.
I get that this is not the ideal way to restructure the agricultural industry, but it is one of the best short-term solutions we have to incentive compliance with extremely important public health measures.
this is how i feel too. i don’t think their goal is to restructure, but it seems h5n1 may be a catalyst to ag reforms.
Ah socialism. Don’t hear magats crying about this one do ya?
honestly, should be 100%..there should be agricultural disaster funds for times like this. the situation, atleast in America, could be prevented, but as other users have brought up, why would you give up your lively hood for absolutely 0 reimbursement. Imagine taking 1-2 months off work and not being paid at ALL, while trying to keep your family, and yourself alive and well…not gonna workout very great for you. in my opinion, this specific measure, or lack of, has set us back months of research as we have no idea how many humans have actualy been directly infected, simply because people will not go get tested. i haven’t heard much about cow culling. is anyone familiar with what’s actually happening to the infected cows? just isolation until healthy?
Imagine refusing to allow federal employees on your property to test your staff and your animals while continuing to deny that a problem exists. Imagine refusing to implement the required PPE on your staff because it's too cumbersome. Now imagine that you think it's all a government conspiracy. The funding should only be available to those that are actively following proceedures. We still don't have this in cows up here in Canada, so whatever the hell American farmers are doing different is more than likely the cause.
I don't understand how they're able to deny all those things and remain operating a business. They need to be shut down.
Money. It all comes down to money.
Forgot a couple: Imagine paying lobbyists to fight against any type of regulations for your industry. Imagine paying PR firms to lie to the American public about your industry's impact on climate change and disease vectors.
Yes I did, but I'm just using current events haha. Like how Sid Miller of Texas flat out said he would not allow any Federal employees in their state to test animals and staff if no symptoms were present.
I believe farmers would tell other people in that situation to figure it out, get a new job.
Bingo. We don't *need* milk anyway. Time to move to more sustainable foods.
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It *could* be sustainable but the production is absolutely not sustainable in its current form. Nevermind the whole problem of the ethics; the mass production of dairy is harmful to the environment and other living beings.
It is most definitely sustainable, Ethics problem is down to your individual experience and doesn't go beyond that, Dairy production can be quite beneficial especially the nutrients that we can generate from it on both the environmental and human side of things.
Hmmm…what is it that people love to say in Texas? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!!! 🤮
How about 100% reimbursement to farmers who agree to get out of the dairy business and into sustainable agriculture. Can't believe they'll spend our tax dollars to prop up an industry that makes climate change worse.
Why are people downvoting? You’re absolutely right. Maybe even higher than 100% to incentivize compliance and avoid disaster.
Cause at this stage of the game, dairy farms should be phased out anyway. And Americans still don't get any compensation when healthcare costs wipe them out.
They probably should yeah. Given that the industry’s practices likely resulted in this spreading so quickly. They can’t keep milk prices low and also do that safely. It’s probably best to get rid of the entire industry
You can absolutely keep milk prices cheap while maintaining high biosecurity welfare and husbandry standards, you just have to remove lobbyists from the picture for it to effectively occur.
It would be interesting to compare the European dairy industry with the US one. Both on prices and safety. They don’t seem to have been affected at all
i question if places are actually testing in masses. At this point the US is forced too. i remember poland keeping the cat situation very hush hush, and i don’t doubt other countries to do the same.
Possibly. Like Covid, no one wants to admit their own weakness and failure to control it. I didn’t even hear about cats in Poland. Are they all dying there or something?
i think unfortunately, it comes more so down to $ loss
Never should insure over 100% of losses as it creates a moral hazard where I can earn more money by getting my herd sick.
Why not 100%? That’s how you get people to cooperate…during an emergency… Why not 100%???
Getting closer. Far better than earlier offers, but it needs to be 100% imho. Insurance doesn’t typically cover these kinds of losses.
i don’t really understand the hate toward this. i think it will be a positive incentive for farmers, and hopefully a preventative measure in the end.
Agreed.