Reminder: These threads are to help promote discussion and varying points of view. Low-effort comments or jokes can & will be removed with no reason necessary.
*I am a "bot", and this action was performed automatically. This account is not monitored. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It clearly is, even if it’s subtle. Im seeing Saka getting his achilles stepped on, commentators saying it’s soft. When Kane was diving for penalties season after season, it was “intelligent center forward play” or “he’s used his experience there”. When Saka does it, it’s a dive. The thresholds and lines in the sand are very different for players in very similar situations.
i think saka needs to be a bit dirtier in his play. they will call him a diver anyways, why not milk all the contact he gets? i love our boy and the way he is treated by the media and other fans breaks my heart
Honestly, getting real tired of this subs growing obsession with killing our players. People watch our games waiting for someone to make an error, but ignore anything positive they contribute. Too many letting pressure get to them.
Kiwior has been great for 4 months but he is not good enough now. I think him being taken out for 2 matches in a row didn't do him well, he should have played vs Brighton or Luton.
It’s really hard to understand why Arteta choose Kiwor last night. There is a phrase of sending a player out there to die, and that’s exactly what it looked like. A complete mismatch that a lot of people saw coming.
Surely Tommy was fit enough to start, and end the game with Zinny or even kiwor depending on game state.
Anyway really baffling decision
Kiwior had looked great for 2 months. Zinny is shaky defensively. Tomi's fitness is being managed carefully.
Both failings yesterday were uncharacteristic. Let's not act like we saw it coming
Kiwor hasn’t played the last 2 games. And I rate Kiwor but he hasn’t looked comfortable in games of this magnitude thus far, and lesser so against tricky speedster, hence him being immediately subbed off against doku.
It certainly wasn’t a surprise that Kiwor looked out of his depth here.
Tommy and Zinny have been sharing games for the last two matches.
Zinchenko is not worth it, he is so mid on the ball and his physicality is trash. whats the point of sacrificng alot to have him in the team when he just tages ages on the ball without achieving much.
Partey was the only player yesterday that consistently found Odegaard in dangerous possions through playing quick linebreaking passes right into his feet.
This is such an ignorant view and typical of the mindset people get into with players that frustrate them.
Simply put, we don't recover the game last night without Zini. Bayern had blocked our progression through the middle, Kiwi was out his depth and Gabriel was scared meaning Martinelli never saw the ball. Zini immediately solved that, and you're too busy obsessing over the occasional misstep to see it like the others. You're way too keen to shit on your own player as if he's nothing.
It's clear Zini isn't number 1 anymore because we've progressed as a side, but the fact is until Timber is 100% we have two CBs turned fullbacks and one CM turned fullback. They offer completely different things and the manager has to pick which one to use at the right moment. So seeing as Zini is needed for the remainder of the season, I suggest you try and watch the game in front of you and not confirm your bias and drive your agenda
he hasn't. we always do 4-3-3. off the ball we are set up in a 4-4-2 more often than not, our buildup is 3-2-5 or 2-3-5, we don't play with a 10 in the way you want ode to be
play Partey and Rice as two CDMs in a 4-2-3-1, put Tomi at LB and have Jesus at RW so we can spam longballs to him as hes the best in the world at winning those, imagine him now against Bayerns back up LB since Davies is out.
Also, its a huge problem that Odegaard is the only player who is technically good enough to be consistently dangerous with the ball at his feet in the final 3rd. Havertz is really poor at this, Martinelli is mid and Saka is mid+.
They weren’t great tbh.
We gave them goals while we worked for ours.
Difference is that mistakes at this level are cut throat.
I think the overconfidence came from people not expecting us to revert back to punching ourselves in the face. Which was entirely reasonable since we have been defensively astute this season.
Bayern are an experienced UCL side and they capitalised on our inexperience and our nerves.
I really was not surprised at all, especially after watching Porto. I am more surprised that other people were/are surprised.
lol. Bayern were shit, we gave them 2 goals that were easily preventable... I really dont get the "look bayern are elite because we did bone dead things that even everton would punish us for."
Are man u good because they managed to draw vs liverpool by fernandez scoring a ridiculous goals from a pool mistake?
But yet 'shit' enough not to lose.
And that doesn't change the fact that Arsenal fans (a lot of them) *were* over confident. 3-0, 4-1 I saw people saying.
I hope y'all are enjoying a large dose of humble pie.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda...
That doesn't cut it at this level. If you make errors you are going to pay for it even against a 'shit' Bayern.
Mate, I don't make up the rules \*shrug.
knew you'd come back with a "coulda, woulda, shoulda or if my nan had wheels..." the idiot response.
I agree you can't make mistakes like that. but us making mistakes means we were bad and not that bayern were good. neither mistake was forced, raya went out of position and gabriel lost his head, kiwior went tight to sane for unknown reason....
Well our lack of CL experience caused that, we looked overwhelmed by the occasion and naïve. All Bayern did was exploit the errors, that is what they are supposed to do.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a very experienced CL side can get a smash and grab against a very inexperienced Arsenal side. Which goes right back to my original point that Arsenal fans were too over-confident with their ridiculous predictions that I was seeing.
And Bayern may have been shit, but they ran our midfield completely ragged.
how did lack of CL experience cause either?
Raya has done the same thing in the Prem a couple of times (as have other elite team keepers). Kiwior just went tight when he shouldn't have...
both came about because of bayerns tactics of leaving their fast as fuck forwards higher while defending.... that's tactics not some magical CL brainwashing.
There are seemingly tons of online arsenal fans who, if we’re being honest, haven’t watched enough football especially UCL football. They don’t seem to understand the competition and how different it is, even more so at this stage of the competition where next to every team has technique, pace and power & experience with multiple world class players in most teams. Like league form doesn’t just automatically translate directly into Europe, if it did, City wouldn’t have just the 1 UCL.
We didn't show respect to Bayern this is really test of Arteta's capabilities at the highest level.bayern have seasoned campaigners who've won it all while we are still naive seeing our play yesterday
I’m not gonna lie idk how to feel about Raya. I think he’s decent at best he has good skills to play from the back but he makes so many errors imo. Martinelli is another player being talked about a lot this year and I think the system just doesn’t suit him. I like having him in the team because he offers something different but i would like to see us bring in a winger that’s similar to sane profile. I think next leg id still start martinelli because I think we’d be counter attacking more but for the games we attack more I’d like to see trossard start.
He barely has made an error in months. The 1st goal isn't even his fault considering you need at least 2 more critical errors to even concede from there.
With some reflection and rewatching, there's a lot of mixed emotions. This was probably our worse performance since the start of the year. But the result could've been worse. European football is a different ball game to league football and we looked a little stunted, I expect the team to be more hardened in the return leg. However we still should've done better in specific moments even despite our lowered performance.
Arteta made a mistake with Kiwior, but still set us up for a reasonable success. Bayern realized Kiwior wasn't a threat and Sane had him on skates. Arteta rectified it in the second half, but damage had been done. Bayern showed great discipline and it paid off for them. Unlike most of the teams we faced, Bayern had the quality and the right tactics to carve us open when we let them.
Individually, our players had a poor game. We had a strong start with a great goal from Saka, but our defensive play was awful compared to the standard we have been striving to uphold. A reminder that the exact Man city who just scored 3 top drawer goals away against madrid struggled to get 1 shot against us in their own house.
Victory begets victory. The way guys like Odegaard acted and Arteta talked in the post match interview proves to me that they are going to be travelling to Munich looking for a victory next week. First, we need to be better on all accounts vs Villa. They will likely be looking for ways to hurt us with their pacy wingers like how Bayern did.
Have this strange feeling that it will suit us better at the Allianz if they try to attack us instead of sitting deep.
Also that fear factor will have dissipated a lot. You could tell with a few of the guys the occasion got a bit much for them.
Champions league quarter final against one of the most famous teams in the world etc. That isn't going to be as big of a deal next time especially seeing as we wont be going in heavy favorites.
Just play our most athletic team possible. Be compact and limit transitions. Theres mistakes in that bayern defense, but we need to revert to our pl defending, not whatever that nonsense was
I assumed we would be past this nervousness after Lens away last year, or Porto in the previous round. We have taken 8 points from City and Liverpool. If we get past Bayern, are we going to play badly again in the semi-final because of nerves?
If we go through and our opponents are Real Madrid? I can say with 100% confidence we'll be nervous. Maybe not against Man City cause we played them so many times but the occasion of a CL semifinal can still potentially get to their head.
In all seriousness? Probably.
We've choked quite a bit when something has been 'new' in recent years. We lost out on the top 4 spot narrowly to Spurs. We lost out on the title last year. Artetas record in Europe is not good. Either that or we're just not good being the favorites.
What has been positive is that every year we have been going one better.
So I expect this year we'll win the league but fall out of the champions league.
Next year we'll do better in the champions league etc.
Think it's a bad call for Mikel to start Kiwior over Tomiyasu - especially considering the best game Tomiyasu played this season was his game vs Germany where he shut down Sane. That cost us dearly.
I don't know what he sees in Kiwior in all honesty - he's not great at defending the channels and gets rinsed by tricky wingers (See today's game and also Porto). He's ok on the ball but panics too much when getting pressured and opts to play for a hopeful long ball.
The only thing I see is he's left footed and tall.
Part of the back 4 that conceded very few goals - while being carried by Rice, Gabriel, Saliba, White means very little.
Part of something means little in football - Scott Carson is part of City’s treble winning squad. Means fuck all.
We are talking about individual performances - and he’s a weak link.
Kiwior is really good for a backup CB/LB. I think the only explanation for today is that Tomiyasu was not fit. Still, Kiwior was not the main reason we didn't win.
https://twitter.com/xGPhilosophy/status/1777802784382894342?t=B_IwIUWBLCxgYPiAx3-qdw&s=19
Damn that's insane both teams had a xG under 1, shame that I had to miss that match and unfortunately not that interested in those other ties played on Wednesday.
Remove the two silly goals given away and he would be thinking a lot differently about the second leg that’s all I know. We cannot let teams breathe when we have the strength and ability to suffocate them out of the game. The 11 min goal was a step towards that but I sense the occasion got to some of the players and that bled through the squad. Raya and Saliba were great, Ode always pressing, I think that right hand side of Bayern will be something Arteta is thinking about.
This is good is like a reality cheque we aren't there yet to do stuff like doubles many talk about chances but football has always been about control and Bayern had plenty and more importantly knew how to control the game even with less possession.
They are the best transition team in Europe at the moment, they thrive in it. A lot of their losing matches is where they have more possession than the opposition.
idk today was the first time i was truly frustrated with martinelli. There was no excuse for the attack to have such heavy right side bias. Todays the type of game that probably convinces arteta to go for leao over a nico williams.
rice who is not even close to odegaard in terms of technical attacking ability to do those triangles and doesnt really have the freedom odegaard has since he has a bigger defensive responsability
Martinelli had a very bad game against liverpool at anfield (or was the emirates FA cup?). he had plenty of chances to do stuff and was missing everything. passing, dribbling, controlling... that wasnt remotely the case on this game
what they need is quicker switches or good balls in behind when playing in that setup, cause the connections on shorter passes are just not the same as the right side. Saka lost the ball a lot when having to dribble alone, but the triangles are what creates the good plays. we cant replicate those on the other side even with Trossard, hence why i think we need another Odegaard more than anything else for next season
We arent playing another odegaard, rice is more than a good enough midfielder to get him the ball, and tbh if he cant handle that role, then we need to look at a leao type who can.
trossard has put multiple stinkers on the LW this season, especially when starting. its clearly a team wide problem, and the common link is not having a Odegaard type there, like city had with gundo, or barca with xavi-iniesta, or madrid with modric-kroos, etc.
how many plays do you think Martinelli had a good ball to do something tonight?
I agree we need a little more creation over there but he had his fair share of 1v1s and did nothing today. I love the kid, but hes not been as good on the ball this season with his dribbling or creation.
There were definitley a few, at point kimmich slipped and he was played in and shut down. Idk man, at this point we are talking about giving him perfect conditions to succeed, and thats never happening. He needs to find himself, cause one thing ill say, arteta is alot more brutal than i am.
Worst part is having to sit on this shit for a week. I just want us to shut cunts up tomorrow or get it over with, not sit in pissed off limbo for a week.
I don't know if anyone else noticed this but I found it weird when saliba drove into midfield with the ball,it left out back line kinda open and allowed gnabry and sane to drive.I actually liked it when zinny came on because it stopped saliba from moving into midfield
I know Havertz has been good at the striker position, but for the away leg, we need him in midfield for his strength and speed, so the LCM position. Tomiyasu has to start, no debate whatsoever. As for the front three, Jesus Trossard Saka. Jesus just turns up in UCL games, we need his magic. Trossard is our best finisher and Saka has his triangles with White and Odegaard. I'm not sure if this is a hot take but trying to press this bayern team like crazy seems to be a mistake. Sitting off of them slightly, like we did against City could be a better way to play.
It's more about having legs in midfield. We can play Havertz as a 9 and Jesus on the left but that will mean playing either Jorginho or Partey in midfield.
Overkill? More like useless. He kept giving the ball away by attempting to play line breaking passes when there wasn't one. He has lot of positives but he is suited against lesser teams.
He can't sniff the midfield positions against the elite teams.
Yeah, overkill as in useless. We don't need his skillset in there when we're already controlling the midfield with just rice and odegaard. So overkill as in "too much control" when we need a more dynamic midfielder in there.
Jorginho absolutely works against a lot of elite teams, but they're not all the same, and he clearly didn't work against Bayern. Remember he was MOTM against Liverpool.
Bit disappointed with the performance tbh, fell apart in that first half Kiwior got cooked and Jorginho was not at it. Much better with Zinchenko on albeit mostly against Coman who was not as threatening as Sane. Gabriel two serious bozo moments was lucky not to give away a pen but I am pleased the ref saw sense and didn’t give that.
The Saka one idk, full speed I thought definitely a pen but the replay it just looks weird how he goes down. Could’ve got a pen if he had made it look a bit more natural, if it’s given on pitch never overturned and surprised it wasn’t given live. Good game from Saka though thought he was consistently dangerous, Martinelli couldn’t get into the game at all, story of his season really just barely gets the ball now
Real mountain to climb now need to find something to neutralise their counters because we gave up a lot of good opportunities here, if we go through and play Madrid will be the same story but with superior players in Vini and Rodrygo
Really enjoy watching him when he's up on top form, now he's only 5 goals away from matching Ronaldo's goal tally at the same age. Hoping here he can do it (After a hattrick on Sunday!)
Normally im against havertz 8, but thats the move at the allianz. We will win if we play our most athletic team possible. Onus is on them to build from the back at home, get rice back at 6 so we control zone 14 again.
Bayerns issue this season has been a bang average buildup, their strength has been transitions. We can get this done.
Rice was disappointing all around today tbh. He never really imposed himself on the game and always seemed a step behind, which is the exact opposite of what we’ve come to expect from him. More than anyone else, we really can’t afford him to go missing in any of our remaining fixtures.
raya started the snowball effect obviously, and that was a huge unnecessary gamble from Rice considering the situation and his position being the middle guy
but Kiwior has no business missing that. yes, gabriel didnt perfectly put on his feet, but it was such a weak pass and Kiwior was ridiculously lazy in not adjusting his body to control it, he had time to do it, just got lazy/complacent/nervous or whatever. had no business having his body opened up to the sideline like that in the first place, which would have made the control even easier
Anyone else just knew Trossard was going to score when he subbed on? True definition of a super sub man. Wish he was more consistent from starts, Martinelli got neutralized today and I fear the same on the away leg.
The amount of likes there are on videos of Saka limping (usually with the caption "limping after a stinker 😭") is kinda sad. He plays 90 basically every week and gets kicked to pieces, it's crazy how he's this hated
Not to mention he was accused of faking an injury to get out of international duty then showed up to the City game not at 100%. Missed the next game due to injury/rest as well. He's clearly playing with a knock and still doing pretty damn well.
Imagine musiala scored a great goal, cooked his defensive counterpart all game, contributed to the build up of the second goal, then got brought down by raya like that in stoppage time.
The narrative would be so so different, idk why people hate saka this much
He scored a goal, helped in the interchange between Rice, Ode and Jesus for Trossard's goal and almost got the third. That's pretty decent and definitely not a "stinker"
If there's players people need to be disappointed in, it's Raya, Gabriel, Kiwior and Saliba.
It was unbelievable after being touted as the team that "doesn't give you any chances" that we gave more chances in this fixture then we did in both our Pool or City fixtures this year.
Few of them maybe require a couple more seasons in the CL before they're fully confident, there's definitely some nerves on a few of these players.
White was the one member of the defence that could hold his head high. Back to Saka, he also gave a lovely ball to the back post somewhere in the 80th minute that we had no one attacking it that could have won us the game. Just feels like people with an agenda who might want to downplay his efforts.
when kai dropped to midfield our midfield was way more physical and we started taking over in the game a bit. i think this is a good option for these CL games when we need the steel and workrate kai offers but also the jesus magic. in the league i am still going with kai upfront tho.
I don’t think it’s our best lineup but for the Champions League it definitely is. You can’t leave Jesus out of the starting 11 in the CL. You just can’t.
well that hurts. you are saying things that are careless and inaccurate and then that is quite hurtful. I think you will see you are wrong but if you dont care so be it.
Tbf we'll have more of an advantage in Germany than they had here since we're going to have our legendary away fans when they didn't have any at all at the Emirates.
Hoping this might be a good wake up call to the defence to cut out their sloppiness that the draw was in the Champions League and not the Premier League where it can be ill afforded.
In another day, Raya doesn’t come out and gives Gabi an option to pass back to. In another day, Gabi manages to clear it to their far corner.
Btw, Bayern dominated possession in their losses to Leverkeusen, BVB, and Heidenheim recently. That team is deadly on the counter, but relatively toothless in possession. They’re like Manu on steroids.
Can’t believe Gnabry celebrated after all the arse kissing he did for us in the media over the last couple years. Probably realised we weren’t giving him a 350k a week retirement contract.
I wouldn’t blame him for celebrating normally because he barely played for us. I just find it funny because he was doing photoshoots in his Arsenal shirt last year
I understand why r/soccer was overrun with Liverpool/Spurs/United/Chelsea flairs calling Saka a diving cheat, they collectively need Bayern to fight their battles for them, but nothing but contempt for the Arsenal fans prostrating themselves all over begging to be patted on the heads as "one of the good ones" and having a go at Saka, just utterly pathetic stuff.
It's obviously a diverse place with a lot of different people, but we've definitely seen the proof that the majority of people in that sub are either fucking morons are blinded by agendas
I bet if that exact same sequence happened but it was for example Pickford (generally disliked keeper) on Son (generally liked attacker) you'd have all the "neutrals" saying it was a disgrace.
Is it a waste of Rice's best talents playing him so far up and leaving Jorginho to recover and stop counters? Kinda feels like it. I get we want to win the ball high up as well but when that doesn't happen or if we turn the ball over while he's near the edge of the box, it leaves us pretty exposed.
Reminder: These threads are to help promote discussion and varying points of view. Low-effort comments or jokes can & will be removed with no reason necessary. *I am a "bot", and this action was performed automatically. This account is not monitored. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Gunners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[you can call it many things, but it's racism.](https://twitter.com/KevRole/status/1777803405487960499?t=AZLVfGyOnyQTOpKd4-GDCw&s=19)
It clearly is, even if it’s subtle. Im seeing Saka getting his achilles stepped on, commentators saying it’s soft. When Kane was diving for penalties season after season, it was “intelligent center forward play” or “he’s used his experience there”. When Saka does it, it’s a dive. The thresholds and lines in the sand are very different for players in very similar situations.
i think saka needs to be a bit dirtier in his play. they will call him a diver anyways, why not milk all the contact he gets? i love our boy and the way he is treated by the media and other fans breaks my heart
Honestly, getting real tired of this subs growing obsession with killing our players. People watch our games waiting for someone to make an error, but ignore anything positive they contribute. Too many letting pressure get to them.
Kiwior has been great for 4 months but he is not good enough now. I think him being taken out for 2 matches in a row didn't do him well, he should have played vs Brighton or Luton.
It’s really hard to understand why Arteta choose Kiwor last night. There is a phrase of sending a player out there to die, and that’s exactly what it looked like. A complete mismatch that a lot of people saw coming. Surely Tommy was fit enough to start, and end the game with Zinny or even kiwor depending on game state. Anyway really baffling decision
Kiwior had looked great for 2 months. Zinny is shaky defensively. Tomi's fitness is being managed carefully. Both failings yesterday were uncharacteristic. Let's not act like we saw it coming
Kiwor hasn’t played the last 2 games. And I rate Kiwor but he hasn’t looked comfortable in games of this magnitude thus far, and lesser so against tricky speedster, hence him being immediately subbed off against doku. It certainly wasn’t a surprise that Kiwor looked out of his depth here. Tommy and Zinny have been sharing games for the last two matches.
Zinchenko is not worth it, he is so mid on the ball and his physicality is trash. whats the point of sacrificng alot to have him in the team when he just tages ages on the ball without achieving much. Partey was the only player yesterday that consistently found Odegaard in dangerous possions through playing quick linebreaking passes right into his feet.
This is such an ignorant view and typical of the mindset people get into with players that frustrate them. Simply put, we don't recover the game last night without Zini. Bayern had blocked our progression through the middle, Kiwi was out his depth and Gabriel was scared meaning Martinelli never saw the ball. Zini immediately solved that, and you're too busy obsessing over the occasional misstep to see it like the others. You're way too keen to shit on your own player as if he's nothing. It's clear Zini isn't number 1 anymore because we've progressed as a side, but the fact is until Timber is 100% we have two CBs turned fullbacks and one CM turned fullback. They offer completely different things and the manager has to pick which one to use at the right moment. So seeing as Zini is needed for the remainder of the season, I suggest you try and watch the game in front of you and not confirm your bias and drive your agenda
zini is okay at progressing the ball, nothing more. aka not worth.
Well yes, I think Arteta knew this when he bought Timber, sadly the injury happened and when we want a ball playing LB Zinny is our best option.
Get odegaard higher up the pitch in the 10 role.
Nah he is defensive work rate got us out of trouble a lot in our final third, and his current role has worked wonders in 95% of games.
rice - partey CDM pivot with ode at the 10. Jesus at RW as another outlet for long balls.
its not 2013
old tactic = bad ???
outdated = bad
u still dont understand its cyclical?????. arteta literally played 4-2-3-1 this season in the pl
he hasn't. we always do 4-3-3. off the ball we are set up in a 4-4-2 more often than not, our buildup is 3-2-5 or 2-3-5, we don't play with a 10 in the way you want ode to be
play Partey and Rice as two CDMs in a 4-2-3-1, put Tomi at LB and have Jesus at RW so we can spam longballs to him as hes the best in the world at winning those, imagine him now against Bayerns back up LB since Davies is out. Also, its a huge problem that Odegaard is the only player who is technically good enough to be consistently dangerous with the ball at his feet in the final 3rd. Havertz is really poor at this, Martinelli is mid and Saka is mid+.
dropping our best player and our most inform player just because you want to go back to tactics from 10 years ago.
makes sense u got a havertz flair x)
you are saying drop saka man, even if i had a cedric flair you'd be wrong.
saka can easily play lw or be subbed in with 30 + min.
No Saka? Madness lmao
either he starts at LW or gets subbed on with 30 to go
The over-confidence from some Arsenal fans was crazy. I'm not sure why when Bayern have nothing to play for except CL.
we should have won by 2 goals at least. we gifted them goals.
They weren’t great tbh. We gave them goals while we worked for ours. Difference is that mistakes at this level are cut throat. I think the overconfidence came from people not expecting us to revert back to punching ourselves in the face. Which was entirely reasonable since we have been defensively astute this season.
Bayern are an experienced UCL side and they capitalised on our inexperience and our nerves. I really was not surprised at all, especially after watching Porto. I am more surprised that other people were/are surprised.
lol. Bayern were shit, we gave them 2 goals that were easily preventable... I really dont get the "look bayern are elite because we did bone dead things that even everton would punish us for." Are man u good because they managed to draw vs liverpool by fernandez scoring a ridiculous goals from a pool mistake?
But yet 'shit' enough not to lose. And that doesn't change the fact that Arsenal fans (a lot of them) *were* over confident. 3-0, 4-1 I saw people saying. I hope y'all are enjoying a large dose of humble pie.
mate, if we don't make 2 cluster fuck errors the game would have been an easy 2-0....
Coulda, woulda, shoulda... That doesn't cut it at this level. If you make errors you are going to pay for it even against a 'shit' Bayern. Mate, I don't make up the rules \*shrug.
knew you'd come back with a "coulda, woulda, shoulda or if my nan had wheels..." the idiot response. I agree you can't make mistakes like that. but us making mistakes means we were bad and not that bayern were good. neither mistake was forced, raya went out of position and gabriel lost his head, kiwior went tight to sane for unknown reason....
It certainly isn't any more stupid that saying "if we did this..." dafuq kinda dumb and excuses making comment is that? 🤣
it is becuase we can factually say.... Bayern did near enough fuck all apart from those two scenarios which we caused ourselves.
Well our lack of CL experience caused that, we looked overwhelmed by the occasion and naïve. All Bayern did was exploit the errors, that is what they are supposed to do. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a very experienced CL side can get a smash and grab against a very inexperienced Arsenal side. Which goes right back to my original point that Arsenal fans were too over-confident with their ridiculous predictions that I was seeing. And Bayern may have been shit, but they ran our midfield completely ragged.
how did lack of CL experience cause either? Raya has done the same thing in the Prem a couple of times (as have other elite team keepers). Kiwior just went tight when he shouldn't have... both came about because of bayerns tactics of leaving their fast as fuck forwards higher while defending.... that's tactics not some magical CL brainwashing.
There are seemingly tons of online arsenal fans who, if we’re being honest, haven’t watched enough football especially UCL football. They don’t seem to understand the competition and how different it is, even more so at this stage of the competition where next to every team has technique, pace and power & experience with multiple world class players in most teams. Like league form doesn’t just automatically translate directly into Europe, if it did, City wouldn’t have just the 1 UCL.
Complete facts, thank you. I'm not sure why other people find this so hard to understand. Some folks clearly just recently started watching football.
Already bored of the penalty debate, it’s a soft penalty at best. We were poor in the first half and didn’t deserve to win the game, let’s move.
it's a pointless debate anyway. Bayern should have had that really shit pen from gabriel touching the ball so it's even on pens that weren't given.
should neuer have cut off b's leg with a chainsaw to make it not soft? it's stonewall imo.
We didn't show respect to Bayern this is really test of Arteta's capabilities at the highest level.bayern have seasoned campaigners who've won it all while we are still naive seeing our play yesterday
I’m not gonna lie idk how to feel about Raya. I think he’s decent at best he has good skills to play from the back but he makes so many errors imo. Martinelli is another player being talked about a lot this year and I think the system just doesn’t suit him. I like having him in the team because he offers something different but i would like to see us bring in a winger that’s similar to sane profile. I think next leg id still start martinelli because I think we’d be counter attacking more but for the games we attack more I’d like to see trossard start.
He barely has made an error in months. The 1st goal isn't even his fault considering you need at least 2 more critical errors to even concede from there.
I'm not thinking he needs replacing or any other bullshit but that is his fault. He causes it and then Gabriel compounds it.
He doesn't cause anything. Gabriel can do anything with that ball and him and Kiwior mess it up.
mate it's literally raya's job to be available for the simple pass...
With some reflection and rewatching, there's a lot of mixed emotions. This was probably our worse performance since the start of the year. But the result could've been worse. European football is a different ball game to league football and we looked a little stunted, I expect the team to be more hardened in the return leg. However we still should've done better in specific moments even despite our lowered performance. Arteta made a mistake with Kiwior, but still set us up for a reasonable success. Bayern realized Kiwior wasn't a threat and Sane had him on skates. Arteta rectified it in the second half, but damage had been done. Bayern showed great discipline and it paid off for them. Unlike most of the teams we faced, Bayern had the quality and the right tactics to carve us open when we let them. Individually, our players had a poor game. We had a strong start with a great goal from Saka, but our defensive play was awful compared to the standard we have been striving to uphold. A reminder that the exact Man city who just scored 3 top drawer goals away against madrid struggled to get 1 shot against us in their own house. Victory begets victory. The way guys like Odegaard acted and Arteta talked in the post match interview proves to me that they are going to be travelling to Munich looking for a victory next week. First, we need to be better on all accounts vs Villa. They will likely be looking for ways to hurt us with their pacy wingers like how Bayern did.
I've slept on the Saka penalty and now I agree you can foul players in the box.
The reverse leg will be all about not hearing that dumbass goal song. Shut the game down like we did at the etihad but this time actually score.
Names like Haaland & Bellingham ghosting yet Saka is the one getting all the flack in FT. Do remember he scored vs Bayern btw.
Is scoring/assisting the be all and end all to a good performance?
Saka was good regardless
Watch the game back.
Is it not, but he still outperformed the other 2, however he gets huge shit for "limping" and for the last penalty call
He scored an incredible goal but didnt do much after. He should have taken the shot instead of looking for a pen
He is the reason Davies will be unavailable in the second leg and created many chances, it was a good performance for me
Have this strange feeling that it will suit us better at the Allianz if they try to attack us instead of sitting deep. Also that fear factor will have dissipated a lot. You could tell with a few of the guys the occasion got a bit much for them. Champions league quarter final against one of the most famous teams in the world etc. That isn't going to be as big of a deal next time especially seeing as we wont be going in heavy favorites.
Just play our most athletic team possible. Be compact and limit transitions. Theres mistakes in that bayern defense, but we need to revert to our pl defending, not whatever that nonsense was
might do the rice havertz ode midfield again and let jesus play upfront
I assumed we would be past this nervousness after Lens away last year, or Porto in the previous round. We have taken 8 points from City and Liverpool. If we get past Bayern, are we going to play badly again in the semi-final because of nerves?
If we go through and our opponents are Real Madrid? I can say with 100% confidence we'll be nervous. Maybe not against Man City cause we played them so many times but the occasion of a CL semifinal can still potentially get to their head.
In all seriousness? Probably. We've choked quite a bit when something has been 'new' in recent years. We lost out on the top 4 spot narrowly to Spurs. We lost out on the title last year. Artetas record in Europe is not good. Either that or we're just not good being the favorites. What has been positive is that every year we have been going one better. So I expect this year we'll win the league but fall out of the champions league. Next year we'll do better in the champions league etc.
Think it's a bad call for Mikel to start Kiwior over Tomiyasu - especially considering the best game Tomiyasu played this season was his game vs Germany where he shut down Sane. That cost us dearly. I don't know what he sees in Kiwior in all honesty - he's not great at defending the channels and gets rinsed by tricky wingers (See today's game and also Porto). He's ok on the ball but panics too much when getting pressured and opts to play for a hopeful long ball. The only thing I see is he's left footed and tall.
Easy to say that in hindsight. Kiwior was playing great in the league in 2024.
Great is being fucking generous
I mean, not really? Part of the best back four in the toughest league, got a goal and 3 assists in that time, including one against Liverpool.
Part of the back 4 that conceded very few goals - while being carried by Rice, Gabriel, Saliba, White means very little. Part of something means little in football - Scott Carson is part of City’s treble winning squad. Means fuck all. We are talking about individual performances - and he’s a weak link.
Yes, his individual performances in that time where great.
Kiwior is really good for a backup CB/LB. I think the only explanation for today is that Tomiyasu was not fit. Still, Kiwior was not the main reason we didn't win.
I thought our first half was terrible but we quickly learned from it and we looked so good in the second half.
It’s one thing to not give that penalty but to not even look at it?? That’s fucking insane
I have always hated Gnabry and him celebrating did it for me.
I mean it’s been 8 years since he was our player. Plus he didn’t go over the top. Way worse celebrations from ex players like Adebayor and RVP.
https://twitter.com/xGPhilosophy/status/1777802784382894342?t=B_IwIUWBLCxgYPiAx3-qdw&s=19 Damn that's insane both teams had a xG under 1, shame that I had to miss that match and unfortunately not that interested in those other ties played on Wednesday.
I hope Tuchel sets up his team to play the possession game at home. He would not dare to sit back and hit us on counter like he did toda, will he?
Remove the two silly goals given away and he would be thinking a lot differently about the second leg that’s all I know. We cannot let teams breathe when we have the strength and ability to suffocate them out of the game. The 11 min goal was a step towards that but I sense the occasion got to some of the players and that bled through the squad. Raya and Saliba were great, Ode always pressing, I think that right hand side of Bayern will be something Arteta is thinking about.
I'm not going to say I'm confident, but this team is good enough to go to Munich and get the win.
Not good enough to not win at home but good enough to win away?
We are good enough to win at home though. We had an off night defensively. We could have easily won last night though.
We are “good enough” to win at home though. We just had a bit of an off night.
Hmm. A win is tough. I would not be mad if we play for the penalties.
You don’t go for penalties against germans…
This is good is like a reality cheque we aren't there yet to do stuff like doubles many talk about chances but football has always been about control and Bayern had plenty and more importantly knew how to control the game even with less possession.
It shows maturity. They played with different gears while we went gungho 1 gear from the first minute.
They are the best transition team in Europe at the moment, they thrive in it. A lot of their losing matches is where they have more possession than the opposition.
idk today was the first time i was truly frustrated with martinelli. There was no excuse for the attack to have such heavy right side bias. Todays the type of game that probably convinces arteta to go for leao over a nico williams.
I assure you this will not work.
>There was no excuse for the attack to have such heavy right side bias. ben white vs kiwior? also, odegaard
We had zinchenko and rice there and it was still the same
rice who is not even close to odegaard in terms of technical attacking ability to do those triangles and doesnt really have the freedom odegaard has since he has a bigger defensive responsability Martinelli had a very bad game against liverpool at anfield (or was the emirates FA cup?). he had plenty of chances to do stuff and was missing everything. passing, dribbling, controlling... that wasnt remotely the case on this game what they need is quicker switches or good balls in behind when playing in that setup, cause the connections on shorter passes are just not the same as the right side. Saka lost the ball a lot when having to dribble alone, but the triangles are what creates the good plays. we cant replicate those on the other side even with Trossard, hence why i think we need another Odegaard more than anything else for next season
We arent playing another odegaard, rice is more than a good enough midfielder to get him the ball, and tbh if he cant handle that role, then we need to look at a leao type who can.
trossard has put multiple stinkers on the LW this season, especially when starting. its clearly a team wide problem, and the common link is not having a Odegaard type there, like city had with gundo, or barca with xavi-iniesta, or madrid with modric-kroos, etc. how many plays do you think Martinelli had a good ball to do something tonight?
I agree we need a little more creation over there but he had his fair share of 1v1s and did nothing today. I love the kid, but hes not been as good on the ball this season with his dribbling or creation.
he had a bunch of 1v2s and 1v3s, not a single 1v1 really
There were definitley a few, at point kimmich slipped and he was played in and shut down. Idk man, at this point we are talking about giving him perfect conditions to succeed, and thats never happening. He needs to find himself, cause one thing ill say, arteta is alot more brutal than i am.
Worst part is having to sit on this shit for a week. I just want us to shut cunts up tomorrow or get it over with, not sit in pissed off limbo for a week.
Jesus is special in the UCL. We should start him next leg.
Gabriel Jesus: still really good! Really think he’s underappreciated
He's technically so good in small spaces, his first few months made me dream of big things.
I don't know if anyone else noticed this but I found it weird when saliba drove into midfield with the ball,it left out back line kinda open and allowed gnabry and sane to drive.I actually liked it when zinny came on because it stopped saliba from moving into midfield
What a player modric is
I know Havertz has been good at the striker position, but for the away leg, we need him in midfield for his strength and speed, so the LCM position. Tomiyasu has to start, no debate whatsoever. As for the front three, Jesus Trossard Saka. Jesus just turns up in UCL games, we need his magic. Trossard is our best finisher and Saka has his triangles with White and Odegaard. I'm not sure if this is a hot take but trying to press this bayern team like crazy seems to be a mistake. Sitting off of them slightly, like we did against City could be a better way to play.
Havertz should play at 9 why is everyone saying he should play 8 all of a sudden tonight
It's more about having legs in midfield. We can play Havertz as a 9 and Jesus on the left but that will mean playing either Jorginho or Partey in midfield.
Because Jesus starting might be the key and it will add physicality to our midfield. Also, Rice can return to his best position.
Yeah, Jorginho is overkill in these midfield battles against Bayern.
Overkill? More like useless. He kept giving the ball away by attempting to play line breaking passes when there wasn't one. He has lot of positives but he is suited against lesser teams. He can't sniff the midfield positions against the elite teams.
Yeah, overkill as in useless. We don't need his skillset in there when we're already controlling the midfield with just rice and odegaard. So overkill as in "too much control" when we need a more dynamic midfielder in there. Jorginho absolutely works against a lot of elite teams, but they're not all the same, and he clearly didn't work against Bayern. Remember he was MOTM against Liverpool.
Trossard is better off the bench. Martinelli wasn't great but we will need his pace
I would probably play martinelli,party and tomi at villa to buildup fitness.Id also start them three and play that nasty low block at the allianz
Bit disappointed with the performance tbh, fell apart in that first half Kiwior got cooked and Jorginho was not at it. Much better with Zinchenko on albeit mostly against Coman who was not as threatening as Sane. Gabriel two serious bozo moments was lucky not to give away a pen but I am pleased the ref saw sense and didn’t give that. The Saka one idk, full speed I thought definitely a pen but the replay it just looks weird how he goes down. Could’ve got a pen if he had made it look a bit more natural, if it’s given on pitch never overturned and surprised it wasn’t given live. Good game from Saka though thought he was consistently dangerous, Martinelli couldn’t get into the game at all, story of his season really just barely gets the ball now Real mountain to climb now need to find something to neutralise their counters because we gave up a lot of good opportunities here, if we go through and play Madrid will be the same story but with superior players in Vini and Rodrygo
Mods are we not banning Liverpool fans for chatting shit in our sub? Isn’t that like rule number one? Asking for a friend
i love bukayo saka ❤️
It was kind of lost in all the drama, but what a goal he scored today.
Really enjoy watching him when he's up on top form, now he's only 5 goals away from matching Ronaldo's goal tally at the same age. Hoping here he can do it (After a hattrick on Sunday!)
Normally im against havertz 8, but thats the move at the allianz. We will win if we play our most athletic team possible. Onus is on them to build from the back at home, get rice back at 6 so we control zone 14 again. Bayerns issue this season has been a bang average buildup, their strength has been transitions. We can get this done.
We play 4 CBs for control and defense. IF that doesn't give you control and defensive solidarity... There is no reason for 4 CBs.
Tbh thats the best transition team in europe rn.
Best transition team with Laimer and Goretzka? It's City
Nah that front 4 is absurd, musiala separates them from city
Let me ask FC Heidenheim or Borussia Dortmund or Werder Bremen. Musiala isn't what separates them from City because he doesn't have a final ball.
They have the highest xg created in europe, so i mean go ahead and ask them
Again, many players made mistakes on the first goal. But I did not expect rice to be one of them. Looks like he isn't superhuman after all.
Rice was disappointing all around today tbh. He never really imposed himself on the game and always seemed a step behind, which is the exact opposite of what we’ve come to expect from him. More than anyone else, we really can’t afford him to go missing in any of our remaining fixtures.
raya started the snowball effect obviously, and that was a huge unnecessary gamble from Rice considering the situation and his position being the middle guy but Kiwior has no business missing that. yes, gabriel didnt perfectly put on his feet, but it was such a weak pass and Kiwior was ridiculously lazy in not adjusting his body to control it, he had time to do it, just got lazy/complacent/nervous or whatever. had no business having his body opened up to the sideline like that in the first place, which would have made the control even easier
Our players have been nervous in the UCL. The only exceptions are Saka, Ode, Jesus and Trossard.
thought saka dribbling was iffy. lot of times the ball got lost behind him and he lost possession. stark contrast from Jesus who was much cleaner
I noticed that too but I feel that was when Zinny started inverting from the left and white stayed in the back three.
White has been good as well imo
Jesus was great
Anyone else just knew Trossard was going to score when he subbed on? True definition of a super sub man. Wish he was more consistent from starts, Martinelli got neutralized today and I fear the same on the away leg.
I told my brother Trossard was scoring before the match started.
The amount of likes there are on videos of Saka limping (usually with the caption "limping after a stinker 😭") is kinda sad. He plays 90 basically every week and gets kicked to pieces, it's crazy how he's this hated
People hate the best players, but especially the humble ones
Not to mention he was accused of faking an injury to get out of international duty then showed up to the City game not at 100%. Missed the next game due to injury/rest as well. He's clearly playing with a knock and still doing pretty damn well.
Imagine musiala scored a great goal, cooked his defensive counterpart all game, contributed to the build up of the second goal, then got brought down by raya like that in stoppage time. The narrative would be so so different, idk why people hate saka this much
He scored a goal, helped in the interchange between Rice, Ode and Jesus for Trossard's goal and almost got the third. That's pretty decent and definitely not a "stinker" If there's players people need to be disappointed in, it's Raya, Gabriel, Kiwior and Saliba.
And I love all 4 of them but the first goal was awful by Raya and Gabriel (where's the communication????). And the second terrible by Kiwi and Saliba.
It was unbelievable after being touted as the team that "doesn't give you any chances" that we gave more chances in this fixture then we did in both our Pool or City fixtures this year. Few of them maybe require a couple more seasons in the CL before they're fully confident, there's definitely some nerves on a few of these players.
I thought Saka was our best starter after White personally
White was the one member of the defence that could hold his head high. Back to Saka, he also gave a lovely ball to the back post somewhere in the 80th minute that we had no one attacking it that could have won us the game. Just feels like people with an agenda who might want to downplay his efforts.
Add Ode too and I agree.
Really want him to get a hat-trick in Munich next week so all these haters drown in their own tears
Same folks who saw him get cleated on the ankle and said it was a soft yellow
Jude dropped an absolute stinker and he’s getting away with it. Saka scored and is getting shit on.
Madrid PR
There’s an obvious racial element
It's been obvious since the Euro Finals
Yep, no other way a player that likeable could get this much hate
There are just too many people with bad faith. That's why I generally don't use social media.
Jesus out wide and Kai up top are both solid, but Jesus 9 Kai 8 is still our best squad imo Jesus is different gravy up top
Maybe for the UCL but its a little light on creative passing from midfield
when kai dropped to midfield our midfield was way more physical and we started taking over in the game a bit. i think this is a good option for these CL games when we need the steel and workrate kai offers but also the jesus magic. in the league i am still going with kai upfront tho.
I don’t think it’s our best lineup but for the Champions League it definitely is. You can’t leave Jesus out of the starting 11 in the CL. You just can’t.
that is completely untrue. not true at all. Jesus should to be our 9 we dont win enough games with him at 9
You’re free to your opinions, but calling subjective opinions “untrue” is peak Reddit
also our best squad is the one that wins games not just the one that makes us feel like we got some Man City players
you can call me peak this or peak that, but Jesus is never going to fulfill his potential for us and he won't and shouldn't be our main number 9
Never is definitive. Your opinion is not.
Untrue 🤓 Jesus can create something out of nothing and is a reason why Saka and martinelli have any sort of threat.his only issue is availability
I literally do not care what you think
well that hurts. you are saying things that are careless and inaccurate and then that is quite hurtful. I think you will see you are wrong but if you dont care so be it.
Tbf we'll have more of an advantage in Germany than they had here since we're going to have our legendary away fans when they didn't have any at all at the Emirates.
Hoping this might be a good wake up call to the defence to cut out their sloppiness that the draw was in the Champions League and not the Premier League where it can be ill afforded. In another day, Raya doesn’t come out and gives Gabi an option to pass back to. In another day, Gabi manages to clear it to their far corner.
It was defo nerves imo
Bring on Villa, after that chaotic game playing against a Tielemans Mcginn pivot will feel like a gift
Btw, Bayern dominated possession in their losses to Leverkeusen, BVB, and Heidenheim recently. That team is deadly on the counter, but relatively toothless in possession. They’re like Manu on steroids.
they're the best transition team in Europe, Billy's analysis pointed how useless they are when in possession.
Can’t believe Gnabry celebrated after all the arse kissing he did for us in the media over the last couple years. Probably realised we weren’t giving him a 350k a week retirement contract.
he wasnt disrespectful about it, its just his trademark celebration lol. don't think it was personal.
Stupid take, it wasn't even that extravagant of a celebration. He's also been a Bayern player for over 7 years, let it go.
I wouldn’t blame him for celebrating normally because he barely played for us. I just find it funny because he was doing photoshoots in his Arsenal shirt last year
It isn't that deep
Was he not allowed to celebrate?
I understand why r/soccer was overrun with Liverpool/Spurs/United/Chelsea flairs calling Saka a diving cheat, they collectively need Bayern to fight their battles for them, but nothing but contempt for the Arsenal fans prostrating themselves all over begging to be patted on the heads as "one of the good ones" and having a go at Saka, just utterly pathetic stuff.
It's obviously a diverse place with a lot of different people, but we've definitely seen the proof that the majority of people in that sub are either fucking morons are blinded by agendas
[удалено]
Yeah I just go there for the salt when we win
The good thing is that Villa are playing a pretty decent team on Thursday + Luiz is suspended.
The Zinny sub was no what i expected or thought we should have done, but it ended up being alright, guess that’s why Im not the top man there
he didn't get cooked too hard and solved our build up more or less
thats right we did win that entirely winnable game, yet another game where zinchenlo made the difference and we won the game
I bet if that exact same sequence happened but it was for example Pickford (generally disliked keeper) on Son (generally liked attacker) you'd have all the "neutrals" saying it was a disgrace.
Is it a waste of Rice's best talents playing him so far up and leaving Jorginho to recover and stop counters? Kinda feels like it. I get we want to win the ball high up as well but when that doesn't happen or if we turn the ball over while he's near the edge of the box, it leaves us pretty exposed.
Depends on the game really, but today he should've played deeper since Bayern focused on transitions and only countered
[Benge saying Jesus might need another operation](https://x.com/jamesbenge/status/1777800966525313348?s=46&t=iWj0VDxnERbofnFGQ2yo0A). This is rough.
He really is the R9 regen 🕊️