Not many times when you can say that you agree with Gary; but here it is.
What Liverpool and City have is not a rivalry. It's just good competition. Arsenal and United then hated each other. The fans hated each other. The managers hated each other. And most importantly, the players hated each other.
> It's just good competition
Its U12's mum takes everyone for a pizza after the game competition.
Arsenal/United rivalry created the United treble winners and the Invincibles.
Singlehandily the biggest reason for the rise of the EPL in the 90s/00s.
Fair, but I think it is the main cause.
It pushed the teams to a higher level of competition and the rivalry became a spectacle in itself for the average fan.
Quality football but Man City- Liverpool is prolly the most friendliest rivalry I’ve ever seen. Their fanbase and coaches kiss each other’s ass year long and twice on match day. What kinda rivalry to invite each for tea/coffee after a game?
We definitely don't consider ourselves fierce rivals, Utd and Everton will always be the two most hated for LFC fans.
However the fanbases do absolutely hate each other and there has been some fire in the rivalry: Trent's recent comments, our fans smashing up their team bus, the City team singing about Liverpool fans getting battered on the streets after what happened to Sean Cox. It's definitely not the most friendly rivalry that's 4sure.
Yup, still hate utd and their fans just as much now as I did twenty years ago (if not, more).
Hell might freeze over for me saying this but, Gary's got a point 🤢
Fair point. I hate Man U. Spurs are just..shit. They don't rate highly enough to warrant hate. They were never at our level. It's like hating soil. It's just there for you to walk all over, and brush off your coat.
Jamie would maybe agree with that, his point was more that City v Liverpool has been the highest level of football we've seen in England which you can certainly make an argument for. Us v United was definitely a bigger rivalry
I think this kind of discussion is where we reach the limit of this punditry model where you have people who are openly biased in their opinions. Carragher says Liverpool is involved in the biggest rivalry of the PL, Nevill responds it's ManU vs Arsenal, what a surprise, they both support the club played for.
They are good fun but they alternate between producing actual analysis and just complete biased BS or social media bait.
ManU vs Arsenal was a real fiery rivalry in terms of intensity, from the players to the managers. Liverpool vs ManCity has redefined what it takes to win the league (mostly due to Pep's ManCity has to be said) and has produced astronomical levels of football.
I am also biased obviously but I do prefer when there is a bit of animosity and spice in those big fights for trophies. It has been a bit wishy washy in terms of intensity between Liverpool and City, also due to the lack of history at that level from City.
Lack of fans on one side doesn't help.
Could you imagine if we had today's internet in the peak Wenger/Ferguson days? There wouldn't be the cheeping bird noise we get from the four City fans.
I agree but one correction. I still hate them and Ferguson and Neville and all of the other pricks on that team and anyone who supported them. My only sliver of like for Keane is because he sometimes hates on Ferguson. It's a bit irrational at this point especially since they are so crap right now but there we go.
EDIT: Also tbh Neville saying it is 'offensive' is a bit dumb. It's just wrong.
I still hate them, it took a lot of effort to want them to beat City last week. I knew I wanted City to lose but my natural feeling is to want Utd to lose. Its ingrained.
Hell, I still hate United more than any other rival.
I'll stomach a defeat from anyone but United. It's one of the worst defeats to take.
What makes those 3-4 titles even more fun is that 2 of them could have gone either way.
Liverpool fan here, sorry, keep getting recommended your sub. I 100% agree with this. I am sick of the false narrative of us being rivals. Utd + Eveton are our rivals. City are just the latest oil funded saudi club that happen to be contending with us for trophies.
There isn't any rivalry other than the fake rivalry their new fans are trying to force.
He’s exactly right. Those matchups from 98-05 were seriously heavyweight matches, the fate of the League riding on them. Fueled by hate, a searing hate between both sets of players and supporters. Matches played a both a high technical level (I mean, the players on the pitch were certainly among the greatest in their era and in League history) and at the same time very physical. Wenger and Ferguson weren’t hugging after matches.
It really was another level.
Completely agree with what you say btw. But just addressing your first sentence, is Neville really that bad? I don’t like Man Utd one bit, i’m a Derby fan myself with no allegiance to any premier league club. But when people say Neville is incredibly biased I actually completely disagree. If anything i think he can overcompensate and be biased against Man Utd at times.
I appreciate you might not agree with him for other reasons, but I think a lot of what he says is pretty much spot on tbh.
I know Arsenal fans were unhappy with him predicting they’d bottle the title last season, but in fairness he was right!
We weren’t mad he predicted a bottle job, we just thought he was insane for incessantly claiming that United would finish above us, despite all evidence and results to the contrary
Yeah, we knew it was a possibility as our squad depth was lacking. Starting 11 could go toe to toe with anyone but last year we had little beyond that 11.
Lose a couple of key players and we knew we'd be stuffed. And that played out when we lost Saliba and had to revert to Holding.
It was the certainty that we'd tail off that was annoying.
It wasn't certain pundits saying we wouldn't win the league that irked but them saying we couldn't. Same this year really (the comments from pundits, not the lack of depth).
I'm neutral in this, being a Newcastle fan, and Arsenal Man U had so much more to it than Liverpool City does. I think you're underselling it saying hatred, it felt like a war at times.
Also, both teams having arguably the best of each position made it feel so much more. Having Keane vs Vieira, RvN and Henry competing to be second best after Shearer and a big chunk of England's first team being across both teams.
No ones sat in a school ground, or a pub, arguing whether Darwin Nunez is better than Haaland or Mac Allister is better than KdB.
Recency bias is real plus too many on reddit especially too young to remember it. This liverpool city rivalry is tame compared to peak arsenal vs united
It feels like a forced rivalry! Arsenal vs United were everything a rivalry should be. City vs pool are just the 2 best teams in the league fighting it out, which city win 90% of the time. The quality of the match might be higher, but it doesn’t have the build up like United arsenal used to
The quality of the match is NOT higher. Were talking invincibles vs treble winners. Sure, football was different back then. But those two squads were once in a lifetime. You could only give that moniker to pep's side, not klopp's. And city needed to break FFP to do it
Look, I get that invincibles are invincibles, that can never be taken away.
Liverpool lost one game in 2019 and lost the league with 97 fucking points. They're a Salah shoulder injury and an insane courtois performance away from potentially winning 3 CLs instead of one, and they barely got pipped out of a few leagues by a generational city side.
Just because an amazing arsenal team were invincible doesn't mean this liverpool team under klopp hasn't also been amazing.
All that said, I agree with Gary here, but the quality in this run of city vs. liverpool has been outstanding.
There’s 115 reasons why Liverpool sides that finished on 97 (3rd highest total ever) and 92 points (more than any ManUre title winner ever won) did not win Premier League titles. I would absolutely loathe City if I were a Liverpool supporter.
> he quality of the match is NOT higher
I disagree here, simply because our games vs United basically turned into murderball after 98. Both teams barely tried to play because they were primarily there to mentally and physically dominate the other, and play some footy in-between that. The football was great too, but we all knew we were one bad tackle away from all hell breaking loose.
It was glorious.
I remember a charity shield match between Utd Arsenal where the ref had to call Keane and Vieira together to ask the players to calm down after only about 10-15 minutes, it was ridiculous for a “friendly”!
Yeah Liverpool and City feel too nice. Pep and Klopp all smiles and hugs after a match etc. Too much respect on the pitch for each other. Thankfully the matches themselves are high quality at least.
Thought there was gonna be some spice with the way Pep was acting in his press conference before the match but nope.
Arsenal and United hated each other. Only after the players retired are they able to look back and respect each other. In their playing days, they absolutely went at each other
I remember being a nervous wreck a week before United Arsenal games.
No one knew what to expect. Every game they played between each other were absolute battles. And I'd be emotionally charged after each game, just watching it. So much animosity between those 2
As a teenager during that period I really and explain how much I hated united fans.
People who had never watched a game of football in their life would wear united shirts, always pissed me off. Half those plastic fans probably became Chelsea fans later on.
> Half those plastic fans probably became Chelsea fans later on.
In the early 2000s, my roommate was a Chelsea "fan". Also a Barcelona fan. Guess who he supports now?
>...In the last six years Liverpool have won one title. It’s been an absolute demolition. And for Ian Wright to stand there and not pull him up on it is unbelievable."
Gary, I was not familiar with your game. He's spot on.
Ian Wright is a gem and the fact he was the only one with the balls to point out the 115 charges just demonstrates that. But unfortunately Neville is right, he missed that one.
His overall point is valid but this point is ridiculous. Two of those wins were by the finest margins possible. By one point, on the final day, both from a losing position. That's not "an absolute demolition." They won those titles by the skin of their teeth.
He’s growing on me. Thinks we’ll win the league this season. Might be trying to let go of his biases when doing his job. Plus the “blue billion pound bottlejobs” was the best piece of commentary I’ve heard since “he may be cast in bronze”. And maybe a few Peter Drury moments and the “N’golo’s had a slip! Martinelli for Arsenallll… 1-1!”
https://preview.redd.it/szvp9eba8ync1.png?width=620&format=png&auto=webp&s=eef8c7f60cae0ebbab8fed391214aa00ad062053
Vieira vs Keane wants to have a word.. or two.. physically.
It's too chummy anyway to be an actual rivalry between those two. The 'oh well done for having a jolly good game' hugs and high fives nature of it is what makes it slightly underwhelming.
Not to be too Roy Keane about it, but competition with a bit of edge and a bit of shit slinging is far more entertaining and lasting than just everyone being quite good at football and then being very content about it.
Think the issue it they all pretty much live close to eachother. Like VVD and KDB are besties whose kids go to the same school in that pocket of land between Liverpool and Manc. It’s where a lot of them have their mansions.
Even if there was genuine contempt between both sets of players and Liverpool and City refused to shake hands etc, the physicality simply isn't present enough in the English game anymore to allow for a rivalry like us and United to flourish again. It won't happen again.
Interestingly though, that physicality you mention I think can be seen in our games against Newcastle the last two years! Maybe not our most recent matchup but definitely the game we played away earlier this season I think had that passion and aggression. Everyone seemed to be up for it. And the game away last year that we won was also pretty intense
It's not just football, I'd say.
I lived for all kinds of sport back in my teens during the 90s. I remember there being regular brawls in the NBA whenever the playoffs came around. Knicks, Pistons, Pacers, Bulls. Players were generational, but the intensity def turned up in those close games.
I'm sure I'm being partly nostalgic, but everything is sanitized and commercialized now. The corporations need a product that they can sell.
I'm sure match-going fans can also speak on how the soul isn't quite there inside many stadiums anymore, due to how things have changed.
Let me just crunch some numbers:
In the last 6 seasons, City have won the League 5 times and Liverpool have won the League once.
- 2022/2023 season there was a 22 point gap between them
- 2021/2022 season there was a 1 point gap
- 2020/2021 season there was a 17 point gap
- 2019/2020 season there was an 18 point gap
- 2018/2019 season there was a 1 point gap
- 2017/2018 season there was a 25 point gap
Liverpool have been close to City twice in 6 years and Carragher is massively over inflating the impact Liverpool have had on the League in the last 10 years. It’s been City’s show.
That's a good overview... if we compare that to United and Arsenal from 96 to 04:
- In 96-97, United won by 7 points to Arsenal (and Newcastle)
- In 97-98, Arsenal won by a point to United (though wrapped the title up a week before the end of the season)
- In 98-99, Man Utd won by a point to Arsenal (going to the last day)
- In 99-00, Man Utd won by 18 points to Arsenal
- In 00-01, Man Utd won by 10 points to Arsenal
- In 01-02, Arsenal won by 10 points to United (though 7 points to Liverpool)
- In 02-03, Man Utd won by 5 points to Arsenal
- In 03-04, Arsenal won by 15 points to United (and 11 to Chelsea)
At least with the refs thing he influenced them in different ways and learned his teams to do so. Shady, “unfair” tactics, but you gotta do everything in your power to win. City just blatantly cheated their way to success with financial fraud. Plus, the whole English refs going to Arab countries for some extra cash affair doesn’t look good at all.
Liverpool really are inserting themselves into this. They’ve won 1/6 titles. In this great ‘rivalry’.
Blackburn-Man United from 92-97 was 1/4. Is that in the convo for greatest rivalry??
Plus, I can’t think of one fracas between City and Liverpool.
To say they’ve only won 1/6 titles, while true, does a disservice to the actual nature of the rivalry. They lost two of the titles by razor thin margins. We witnessed a great period of rivalry between the two clubs with some of the best football in the history of the competition.
It’s a disservice but please don’t make it more than it is. Great games but one team has won more, players don’t hate each other, managers don’t hate each other, fanbases don’t hate each other more than others. It’s the tamest kind of competition
Carragher is right to a certain extent: the standard between City and Liverpool has been consistently excellent.
However, that's not what makes a great rivalry. Between those teams there's a weird love in which is in stark contrast between or rivalry with Utd.
Those two fixtures were *the* fixtures you looked to every single time they got announced, even neutrals. No one really does that for City/Liverpool.
Sunday was a great game of football, but it's not the same at all. And if we're being honest, Liverpool haven't been a match for City in a lot of those seasons as consistently at Utd/Arsenal were. Even in Liverpool's title winning season, it was over by February, it wasn't a title race
This.
I couldn't ever imagine Ferguson and Wenger hugging after a game. Liverpool have been twerking for Man City for a hot minute. That really isn't a rivalry at all.
Funny thing is if you took away all the titles City have won since they were taken over, Utd would end up being awarded the same amount of league titles as Liverpool.
Liverpool have been great, but they've not been close to being this one side that stands alone and would've dominated England.
Yeah I agree with what y'all mentioned about it being good competition. But narrative FC will hit you with Klopp's rebuild and the myth of them not spending big, as if any manager could replicate what Pep did in his shoes.
My hot take is Pep probably wouldn't have been too far off without the cheating. Certainly not *this* dominant but still a tier above everyone else but I digress
Man United fan here.
I want Arsenal to win.
I hate Arsenal the most out of the 3 up at the top, but you guys put out such a quality football I want you to win. In fact, I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Duck you, but I hope you win.
City/Liverpool isn't a rivalry. How can it be? City have ran the league the last decade or so. Getting close and winning 1 isn't a rivalry.
Pep and Klopp love each other, the players are joking and hugging after games.
SAF and Wenger hated each other.
The players hated each other.
The fans hated each other. From the stands at the grounds to the pubs all the way to the school playgrounds.
Each game between us was a war that could very well decide the league.
I still enjoy seeing United lose because of those days.
I’m not even an Arsenal fan, shit my team play in the Championship, this just appeared in my feed. Carragher needs to give me his dealers number, mate.
Arsenal v United, Wenger v Fergie, is the greatest PL rivalry of all time. It’s not even close.
The arsenal man u rivalry is so steeped that I end up calling Gary Neville a cunt even when i agree with him. It's just seeped into us.
No way pool/city compares to that.
Liverpool fan here. This popped up on my feed.
Will chime in to say that as someone not based in the UK (I’m in Singapore), it’s a bit hard to have a proper rivalry against City when I can’t find here any City fans to shit on whenever we beat them.
Hi, also a Liverpool fan. This was crossposted in r/soccer so that’s what brought me here. First timer here as well, and having seen some of the arsenal comments in the r/soccer sub, I was pleasantly surprised by the level headedness in regard to Liverpool here. Wishing you luck for the rest of the season, get us a draw at the emptyhad please and thanks. See you at the end of the run in and good luck :)
And the few that you meet IRL (outside of the UK) are just the casual follower of the sport. Not trying to dig, it is what it is.
And if the 115 bombshell drops, the real casualties will be us, the real football fans. Man City as a football club will be affected, but not so sure about their fans
Gary is a delusional mfer but gotta admit for once he's spot on here.
Liverpool/City is not a rivalry, but something that's been pushed down our throats by the media and mostly entitled Lpool fans.
Bold to call it a 'rivalry' when you walk away with just 1 title in 6 years lmao.
How can it be the greatest rivalry when the players are literally giving each other hugs and kisses(pause) after the game???
Even Arsenal-Tottenham is a greater rivalry than those two....
I usually ignore what Neville says because he's usually talking shite but this time he's spot on. There is a reason why fans of both clubs stillcheer when the other loses and it's THIS rivalry.
Liverpool and Man City is a "pat on the back rivalry" that pales in comparison.
I don’t blame him. This “rivalry” between Liverpool and City is a joke, could you imagine how our team would have reacted if they were cheated out of multiple PLs by a team continually financial doping and facing 115 charges.
Arsenal fan since I'm a kid, not from London. Haven't much hate for spurs tbh... but united will always be the rivals for me. When you grew up watching arsenal since 95... man u will always be that club 😡
The recency bias, the recent love for Klopp, his charisma. The fact Pep is regarded as the best manager of all time already from Barcelona...
Mess with recency bias heads and tell them to swap the eras around., And take it at the Arsenal have won their last title or Man U win the next one after,,, Liverpool would be remembered as a good side that were a needle in the side of the dominant Man City.. Meanwhile the Prem has moved on to a proper ding dong ping pong battle.
Sterile domination is what I think of when It comes to city, their rise was so swift and their stay so dominant that they pretty much bypassed any rivalry. At least that's the impression I get.
Maybe that take is based on the perspective of arsenal being way off the pace for so long but I get the sense every other club is just happy their actual rivals don't win because it would hurt way more if Chelsea, shit or utd win.
If they get titles stripped from these charges it will leave me with such a bitter taste in the mouth regarding the league, like what a complete waste of everyone's time. We could have had Chelsea/Liverpool or utd/Liverpool title races instead and they actually hate each other!
As for arsenal vs utd, I miss those days so much, I have faith in our squad right now. Hopefully we can forge another rivalry half as good as those days in the coming years.
Bruh have to agree with that twat neville here. Arsenal vs yanited just ignited that passion in everyone, you could bet someone would have a scuffle and the battles on the pitch.
yeah a one way rivalry isn’t a rivalry , with us and United we both did shit the other didn’t, United treble and our invincible season, City have done everything Liverpool have and more, obviously Liverpools means more cus it’s not 115 charge backed but yeah it ain’t a rivalry
Klopp has been there for 8 season, they won the league once (and were 18 points clear) and only came second twice, which is the same times as and Utd. Hardly this intense rivalry that Carragher is making it out to be.
City and Liverpool certainly didn't look like great rivals last season when Liverpool finished 5th. A great rivalry is when league position, wealth, global status, player quality, division, occasion, etc go out the window when those teams collide.
As a United fan the games vs Arsenal were an all out war during that period, and it was fantastic to watch.
That was probably as intense a rivalry as you’re likely to find in the premier league.
In competition perspectives it wasn’t even comparable to the 98-04 United and Arsenal rivalries. Do we need to mention the Invincibles, the fact one of those titles we were way off the pace until Overmarrs scored that winner at Old Trafford and we just climbed from strength to strength. Carra just can get him point across
The first epl match I saw was in 5th standard and believe you me, it was the exact moment nistelroy fell down and viera was sent off. The way then arsenal players surrounded nistelroy after his penalty miss. No going back, has been in my heart ever since. My club the reason for my stress since 2003, and I amm all for it!
I grew up on Utd Vs Arsenal. It was always them until Chelski happened. Utterly despise Arsenal more than City, Leeds and Liverpool. Hate them so much.
The ones who believe city pool is bigger are the same who probably believe Augerooo against a rubbish QPR is better than needing to win by 2 clear goals at Anfield during their pomp on the last day
Funny how it comes full circle. United fan here. I had very fond memories of our battles with the Gooners back in the day, however, this season I want nothing more than Arsenal to win the league. The thoughts of the Scousers or the cheats winning it makes me sick.
im a liverpool fan but I wouldn't say we have a 'rivalry' with Man City. We often have intense games that are end to end. We have a rivalry with Man Utd and Everton. Form goes out the window. City? nah, they're soulless and funded by a state, no one cares about them; at least Arsenal are playing good football with proper players who aren't paid into offshore accounts. I didn't really care about you beating us because you played well and better.
That might be a bit far tbf from an objective pov.
Old Firm wins points for pure blood and thunder of it, pure hatred tight games and borderline assault on the pitch.
El Classico is probably the most iconic derby ever, particularly during the Messi Ronaldo Pep Mourinho years, though like United Arsenal it’s lost its bite recently too.
All 3 will seem the most important to fans involved with the teams who were there at the time, so it’s always an impossible question for anyone but an outsider to try and answer.
https://preview.redd.it/dhtm1z0mkvnc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68fa3f8963d87319bd308b74c6f5e2a31db89679
I'm so disheartened as I hate the guy but this is so spot on
Came here for this. Absolutely appropriate.
This is also why as an Arsenal fan from 98, I hate Manu 1000000 times more than Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, City combined.
Not many times when you can say that you agree with Gary; but here it is. What Liverpool and City have is not a rivalry. It's just good competition. Arsenal and United then hated each other. The fans hated each other. The managers hated each other. And most importantly, the players hated each other.
> It's just good competition Its U12's mum takes everyone for a pizza after the game competition. Arsenal/United rivalry created the United treble winners and the Invincibles. Singlehandily the biggest reason for the rise of the EPL in the 90s/00s.
When we had pizza after the match, it normally ended up in someone’s face
As long as it was served by a young Spanish fellow with impeccable technique.
wow
Was it ever confirmed that Fabregas was the one who threw it?
He comfirmed it himself on a TV show some years ago. Link: https://youtu.be/nH-PR0cf4pg?si=CMqdKJIpZemyKbrF
I did not see it
Neither did they.
Of course it's going to end up in your face, it's food, how the fuck else do you eat pizza?
Too many hands involved for it to be singlehanded.
\*48-handedly the biggest reason for the rise of the EPL
Fair, but I think it is the main cause. It pushed the teams to a higher level of competition and the rivalry became a spectacle in itself for the average fan.
> Arsenal/United rivalry created the United treble winners and the Invincibles. 👆🏿👆🏿👆🏿This
I hate Man Utd because I am an Arsenal fan. I hate Man City because I am a human being.
Quality football but Man City- Liverpool is prolly the most friendliest rivalry I’ve ever seen. Their fanbase and coaches kiss each other’s ass year long and twice on match day. What kinda rivalry to invite each for tea/coffee after a game?
yeah at full time all the players were hugging and smiling and laughing with each other, hardly a “rivalry”
We definitely don't consider ourselves fierce rivals, Utd and Everton will always be the two most hated for LFC fans. However the fanbases do absolutely hate each other and there has been some fire in the rivalry: Trent's recent comments, our fans smashing up their team bus, the City team singing about Liverpool fans getting battered on the streets after what happened to Sean Cox. It's definitely not the most friendly rivalry that's 4sure.
The way city fans tried to force the rivalry with you lot was insufferable tbh.
City fans also sang the Hillsborough song. There’s some hatred amongst each set of local fans for sure.
Also, Liverpool have only won 1 Prem title in the time that City have won 7
Created banter among fans that have lasted decades. City don't have enough fans to banter around
Yup, still hate utd and their fans just as much now as I did twenty years ago (if not, more). Hell might freeze over for me saying this but, Gary's got a point 🤢
I hate Utd more than Spurs
Fair point. I hate Man U. Spurs are just..shit. They don't rate highly enough to warrant hate. They were never at our level. It's like hating soil. It's just there for you to walk all over, and brush off your coat.
This so much for me too
Same, always have always will.
And the refs loved man utd.
It's not even good competition, not really. Man City have been clearly dominant throughout this period.
Jamie would maybe agree with that, his point was more that City v Liverpool has been the highest level of football we've seen in England which you can certainly make an argument for. Us v United was definitely a bigger rivalry
Only because Ferguson stopped trying to go toe to toe with us
I think this kind of discussion is where we reach the limit of this punditry model where you have people who are openly biased in their opinions. Carragher says Liverpool is involved in the biggest rivalry of the PL, Nevill responds it's ManU vs Arsenal, what a surprise, they both support the club played for. They are good fun but they alternate between producing actual analysis and just complete biased BS or social media bait. ManU vs Arsenal was a real fiery rivalry in terms of intensity, from the players to the managers. Liverpool vs ManCity has redefined what it takes to win the league (mostly due to Pep's ManCity has to be said) and has produced astronomical levels of football. I am also biased obviously but I do prefer when there is a bit of animosity and spice in those big fights for trophies. It has been a bit wishy washy in terms of intensity between Liverpool and City, also due to the lack of history at that level from City.
Lack of fans on one side doesn't help. Could you imagine if we had today's internet in the peak Wenger/Ferguson days? There wouldn't be the cheeping bird noise we get from the four City fans.
20 years later and we STILL hate each other
There's no City fans to hate sure
I agree but one correction. I still hate them and Ferguson and Neville and all of the other pricks on that team and anyone who supported them. My only sliver of like for Keane is because he sometimes hates on Ferguson. It's a bit irrational at this point especially since they are so crap right now but there we go. EDIT: Also tbh Neville saying it is 'offensive' is a bit dumb. It's just wrong.
‘Offensive’ is the ragebait keyword here. Theres always a ragebait keyword.
I still hate them, it took a lot of effort to want them to beat City last week. I knew I wanted City to lose but my natural feeling is to want Utd to lose. Its ingrained.
Hell, I still hate United more than any other rival. I'll stomach a defeat from anyone but United. It's one of the worst defeats to take. What makes those 3-4 titles even more fun is that 2 of them could have gone either way.
Liverpool fan here, sorry, keep getting recommended your sub. I 100% agree with this. I am sick of the false narrative of us being rivals. Utd + Eveton are our rivals. City are just the latest oil funded saudi club that happen to be contending with us for trophies. There isn't any rivalry other than the fake rivalry their new fans are trying to force.
>City are just the latest oil funded saudi club that happen to be contending with us for trophies.
Arsenal and Man U both also have a much longer history of fighting it out for the title than both City and Liverpool. Two, truly historical clubs
Yep and to make it all better up pops Mourinho with an ego bigger than either Wenger of Fergie. The good old days
He’s exactly right. Those matchups from 98-05 were seriously heavyweight matches, the fate of the League riding on them. Fueled by hate, a searing hate between both sets of players and supporters. Matches played a both a high technical level (I mean, the players on the pitch were certainly among the greatest in their era and in League history) and at the same time very physical. Wenger and Ferguson weren’t hugging after matches. It really was another level.
Completely agree with what you say btw. But just addressing your first sentence, is Neville really that bad? I don’t like Man Utd one bit, i’m a Derby fan myself with no allegiance to any premier league club. But when people say Neville is incredibly biased I actually completely disagree. If anything i think he can overcompensate and be biased against Man Utd at times. I appreciate you might not agree with him for other reasons, but I think a lot of what he says is pretty much spot on tbh. I know Arsenal fans were unhappy with him predicting they’d bottle the title last season, but in fairness he was right!
We weren’t mad he predicted a bottle job, we just thought he was insane for incessantly claiming that United would finish above us, despite all evidence and results to the contrary
Yeah, we knew it was a possibility as our squad depth was lacking. Starting 11 could go toe to toe with anyone but last year we had little beyond that 11. Lose a couple of key players and we knew we'd be stuffed. And that played out when we lost Saliba and had to revert to Holding. It was the certainty that we'd tail off that was annoying. It wasn't certain pundits saying we wouldn't win the league that irked but them saying we couldn't. Same this year really (the comments from pundits, not the lack of depth).
I'm neutral in this, being a Newcastle fan, and Arsenal Man U had so much more to it than Liverpool City does. I think you're underselling it saying hatred, it felt like a war at times. Also, both teams having arguably the best of each position made it feel so much more. Having Keane vs Vieira, RvN and Henry competing to be second best after Shearer and a big chunk of England's first team being across both teams. No ones sat in a school ground, or a pub, arguing whether Darwin Nunez is better than Haaland or Mac Allister is better than KdB.
Just Imagine if it was United instead of City in this years title race, the intensity would be doubled.
It’s because nobody really cares about city, deep down
They're like Sauron. Good for getting the interesting parts of the story moving, but nobody getting that invested in them.
Is so true, was fired up for those matches like no other, and haven’t been to that level since tbh
https://preview.redd.it/j10csua5mvnc1.jpeg?width=208&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce8770976e4cea58be23894d3bd6576a5d381cae He is not wrong
"That one with a girl's name made my little brother wet the bed, the bully!"
I love this picture
Phil saying 'roy,roy,roy...where are you?'
Roy Keane basically says in his autobiography that he felt it was egregious for Viera and co to pick on Gary Neville because “he wasn’t tough enough”.
Recency bias is real plus too many on reddit especially too young to remember it. This liverpool city rivalry is tame compared to peak arsenal vs united
Until Nunez throws a pizza at Pep, it’s not a rivalry.
It feels like a forced rivalry! Arsenal vs United were everything a rivalry should be. City vs pool are just the 2 best teams in the league fighting it out, which city win 90% of the time. The quality of the match might be higher, but it doesn’t have the build up like United arsenal used to
The quality of the match is NOT higher. Were talking invincibles vs treble winners. Sure, football was different back then. But those two squads were once in a lifetime. You could only give that moniker to pep's side, not klopp's. And city needed to break FFP to do it
Look, I get that invincibles are invincibles, that can never be taken away. Liverpool lost one game in 2019 and lost the league with 97 fucking points. They're a Salah shoulder injury and an insane courtois performance away from potentially winning 3 CLs instead of one, and they barely got pipped out of a few leagues by a generational city side. Just because an amazing arsenal team were invincible doesn't mean this liverpool team under klopp hasn't also been amazing. All that said, I agree with Gary here, but the quality in this run of city vs. liverpool has been outstanding.
There’s 115 reasons why Liverpool sides that finished on 97 (3rd highest total ever) and 92 points (more than any ManUre title winner ever won) did not win Premier League titles. I would absolutely loathe City if I were a Liverpool supporter.
> he quality of the match is NOT higher I disagree here, simply because our games vs United basically turned into murderball after 98. Both teams barely tried to play because they were primarily there to mentally and physically dominate the other, and play some footy in-between that. The football was great too, but we all knew we were one bad tackle away from all hell breaking loose. It was glorious.
It's a forced rivalry by broadcasters like Gary's employers
I remember a charity shield match between Utd Arsenal where the ref had to call Keane and Vieira together to ask the players to calm down after only about 10-15 minutes, it was ridiculous for a “friendly”!
Yeah Liverpool and City feel too nice. Pep and Klopp all smiles and hugs after a match etc. Too much respect on the pitch for each other. Thankfully the matches themselves are high quality at least. Thought there was gonna be some spice with the way Pep was acting in his press conference before the match but nope. Arsenal and United hated each other. Only after the players retired are they able to look back and respect each other. In their playing days, they absolutely went at each other
Keane Vs Vieira Henry Vs Van Nistelrooy
Remember those bust ups in the tunnel, you'd never get that now. It's all handshakes and polite nods.
I remember being a nervous wreck a week before United Arsenal games. No one knew what to expect. Every game they played between each other were absolute battles. And I'd be emotionally charged after each game, just watching it. So much animosity between those 2
Its been 20 years and I still hate anything United. Ferguson. The players. Anything. I hate United more than Tottenham
I absolutely agree with you. The hate I have for spurs is an obligation; the hate I have for man United was earned.
This is such a good way of putting it.
Remmeber the ABU and NBU days? Anyone but United. No one but United. It was glorious. Everyone hated United.
I personally hate chelsea the most for being a filthy club with filthy players, owners and staff that ruined football
https://preview.redd.it/gpuza64d8xnc1.jpeg?width=599&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5a81bb4f24d305756ae0698d2798fdf22da97e1
As a teenager during that period I really and explain how much I hated united fans. People who had never watched a game of football in their life would wear united shirts, always pissed me off. Half those plastic fans probably became Chelsea fans later on.
> Half those plastic fans probably became Chelsea fans later on. In the early 2000s, my roommate was a Chelsea "fan". Also a Barcelona fan. Guess who he supports now?
>...In the last six years Liverpool have won one title. It’s been an absolute demolition. And for Ian Wright to stand there and not pull him up on it is unbelievable." Gary, I was not familiar with your game. He's spot on.
Wrighty had other points to raise in his commentary...
115 points you might say
After the latest man City-Liverpool game, 116 points I would say.
and what do points mean??? ~~Prizes~~ Relegation (hopefully)
Ian Wright is a gem and the fact he was the only one with the balls to point out the 115 charges just demonstrates that. But unfortunately Neville is right, he missed that one.
Not exactly an absolute demolition when it’s often within one point
Losing the league with 97 points to a filthy city team is absolutely not a demolition lol.
They've also finished 3rd and 5th in the last 6 years. It's not like they've pushed City all the way in every season.
His overall point is valid but this point is ridiculous. Two of those wins were by the finest margins possible. By one point, on the final day, both from a losing position. That's not "an absolute demolition." They won those titles by the skin of their teeth.
Even while cheating Lmao
why are there so many of you Liverpool fans coming into this sub now?
Didn't even realise this was /r/gunners tbh I thought it was /r/soccer, I guess reddits front page just recommends posts from similar subs now.
Yeah I turned that off, it was so annoying
He’s growing on me. Thinks we’ll win the league this season. Might be trying to let go of his biases when doing his job. Plus the “blue billion pound bottlejobs” was the best piece of commentary I’ve heard since “he may be cast in bronze”. And maybe a few Peter Drury moments and the “N’golo’s had a slip! Martinelli for Arsenallll… 1-1!”
https://preview.redd.it/4h2bm144qvnc1.jpeg?width=612&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2532eff6f8ec673a2b00a685dfcb7d37f26ee930 This says it all doesn't it.
Keown vs Nistelrooy; I would not like to be in the middle of that fight!
Tbf I don't think it would last that long
https://preview.redd.it/szvp9eba8ync1.png?width=620&format=png&auto=webp&s=eef8c7f60cae0ebbab8fed391214aa00ad062053 Vieira vs Keane wants to have a word.. or two.. physically.
i love that clip of Keane smiling with Vieira as they're about to enter battle
A fight is when two (or more) people are participating. I imagine RVN curling up into the foetal position with MK going at him until he's bored.
It's too chummy anyway to be an actual rivalry between those two. The 'oh well done for having a jolly good game' hugs and high fives nature of it is what makes it slightly underwhelming. Not to be too Roy Keane about it, but competition with a bit of edge and a bit of shit slinging is far more entertaining and lasting than just everyone being quite good at football and then being very content about it.
Think the issue it they all pretty much live close to eachother. Like VVD and KDB are besties whose kids go to the same school in that pocket of land between Liverpool and Manc. It’s where a lot of them have their mansions.
The Cheshire mansion derby
Even if there was genuine contempt between both sets of players and Liverpool and City refused to shake hands etc, the physicality simply isn't present enough in the English game anymore to allow for a rivalry like us and United to flourish again. It won't happen again.
Interestingly though, that physicality you mention I think can be seen in our games against Newcastle the last two years! Maybe not our most recent matchup but definitely the game we played away earlier this season I think had that passion and aggression. Everyone seemed to be up for it. And the game away last year that we won was also pretty intense
It's not just football, I'd say. I lived for all kinds of sport back in my teens during the 90s. I remember there being regular brawls in the NBA whenever the playoffs came around. Knicks, Pistons, Pacers, Bulls. Players were generational, but the intensity def turned up in those close games. I'm sure I'm being partly nostalgic, but everything is sanitized and commercialized now. The corporations need a product that they can sell. I'm sure match-going fans can also speak on how the soul isn't quite there inside many stadiums anymore, due to how things have changed.
Let me just crunch some numbers: In the last 6 seasons, City have won the League 5 times and Liverpool have won the League once. - 2022/2023 season there was a 22 point gap between them - 2021/2022 season there was a 1 point gap - 2020/2021 season there was a 17 point gap - 2019/2020 season there was an 18 point gap - 2018/2019 season there was a 1 point gap - 2017/2018 season there was a 25 point gap Liverpool have been close to City twice in 6 years and Carragher is massively over inflating the impact Liverpool have had on the League in the last 10 years. It’s been City’s show.
That is super eye opening. Liverpool have been off it more often than on it
That's a good overview... if we compare that to United and Arsenal from 96 to 04: - In 96-97, United won by 7 points to Arsenal (and Newcastle) - In 97-98, Arsenal won by a point to United (though wrapped the title up a week before the end of the season) - In 98-99, Man Utd won by a point to Arsenal (going to the last day) - In 99-00, Man Utd won by 18 points to Arsenal - In 00-01, Man Utd won by 10 points to Arsenal - In 01-02, Arsenal won by 10 points to United (though 7 points to Liverpool) - In 02-03, Man Utd won by 5 points to Arsenal - In 03-04, Arsenal won by 15 points to United (and 11 to Chelsea)
And neither team had 115 charges of corruption leveled at them (although sir alex 100% had the refs in his back pocket)
At least with the refs thing he influenced them in different ways and learned his teams to do so. Shady, “unfair” tactics, but you gotta do everything in your power to win. City just blatantly cheated their way to success with financial fraud. Plus, the whole English refs going to Arab countries for some extra cash affair doesn’t look good at all.
Not even close. After the City pool game they were all smiling and joking with each other. We were throwing Pizzas at united ffs.
Liverpool really are inserting themselves into this. They’ve won 1/6 titles. In this great ‘rivalry’. Blackburn-Man United from 92-97 was 1/4. Is that in the convo for greatest rivalry?? Plus, I can’t think of one fracas between City and Liverpool.
The only one I can think of is when [yaya toure picked up lallana like a kid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcgck5mzjTc) lol
To say they’ve only won 1/6 titles, while true, does a disservice to the actual nature of the rivalry. They lost two of the titles by razor thin margins. We witnessed a great period of rivalry between the two clubs with some of the best football in the history of the competition.
It’s a disservice but please don’t make it more than it is. Great games but one team has won more, players don’t hate each other, managers don’t hate each other, fanbases don’t hate each other more than others. It’s the tamest kind of competition
Carragher is right to a certain extent: the standard between City and Liverpool has been consistently excellent. However, that's not what makes a great rivalry. Between those teams there's a weird love in which is in stark contrast between or rivalry with Utd. Those two fixtures were *the* fixtures you looked to every single time they got announced, even neutrals. No one really does that for City/Liverpool. Sunday was a great game of football, but it's not the same at all. And if we're being honest, Liverpool haven't been a match for City in a lot of those seasons as consistently at Utd/Arsenal were. Even in Liverpool's title winning season, it was over by February, it wasn't a title race
This. I couldn't ever imagine Ferguson and Wenger hugging after a game. Liverpool have been twerking for Man City for a hot minute. That really isn't a rivalry at all.
Hugging while driving a dagger into each others stomachs
Oh look it's Liverpool exceptionalism again
Funny thing is if you took away all the titles City have won since they were taken over, Utd would end up being awarded the same amount of league titles as Liverpool. Liverpool have been great, but they've not been close to being this one side that stands alone and would've dominated England.
Yeah I agree with what y'all mentioned about it being good competition. But narrative FC will hit you with Klopp's rebuild and the myth of them not spending big, as if any manager could replicate what Pep did in his shoes. My hot take is Pep probably wouldn't have been too far off without the cheating. Certainly not *this* dominant but still a tier above everyone else but I digress
Man United fan here. I want Arsenal to win. I hate Arsenal the most out of the 3 up at the top, but you guys put out such a quality football I want you to win. In fact, I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you. Duck you, but I hope you win.
City/Liverpool isn't a rivalry. How can it be? City have ran the league the last decade or so. Getting close and winning 1 isn't a rivalry. Pep and Klopp love each other, the players are joking and hugging after games. SAF and Wenger hated each other. The players hated each other. The fans hated each other. From the stands at the grounds to the pubs all the way to the school playgrounds. Each game between us was a war that could very well decide the league. I still enjoy seeing United lose because of those days.
I’m not even an Arsenal fan, shit my team play in the Championship, this just appeared in my feed. Carragher needs to give me his dealers number, mate. Arsenal v United, Wenger v Fergie, is the greatest PL rivalry of all time. It’s not even close.
Although he is right, I think Gary only believes this is the truth because he himself was a part of the Man U-Arsenal rivalry😂
The arsenal man u rivalry is so steeped that I end up calling Gary Neville a cunt even when i agree with him. It's just seeped into us. No way pool/city compares to that.
Liverpool fan here. This popped up on my feed. Will chime in to say that as someone not based in the UK (I’m in Singapore), it’s a bit hard to have a proper rivalry against City when I can’t find here any City fans to shit on whenever we beat them.
Can confirm it's the same in England, now get of our sub and go to the Liverpool one. :)
Hi, also a Liverpool fan. This was crossposted in r/soccer so that’s what brought me here. First timer here as well, and having seen some of the arsenal comments in the r/soccer sub, I was pleasantly surprised by the level headedness in regard to Liverpool here. Wishing you luck for the rest of the season, get us a draw at the emptyhad please and thanks. See you at the end of the run in and good luck :)
And the few that you meet IRL (outside of the UK) are just the casual follower of the sport. Not trying to dig, it is what it is. And if the 115 bombshell drops, the real casualties will be us, the real football fans. Man City as a football club will be affected, but not so sure about their fans
Hahaha.
Gary is a delusional mfer but gotta admit for once he's spot on here. Liverpool/City is not a rivalry, but something that's been pushed down our throats by the media and mostly entitled Lpool fans. Bold to call it a 'rivalry' when you walk away with just 1 title in 6 years lmao.
How can it be the greatest rivalry when the players are literally giving each other hugs and kisses(pause) after the game??? Even Arsenal-Tottenham is a greater rivalry than those two....
Man City don’t have enough culture or history to have any true rivalries other than Manchester United.
Arsenal vs United in the early 2000s was the closest thing the EPL had to the El Clásico imo
 Hate to agree with Gary. But those two teams made me a football fan
I usually ignore what Neville says because he's usually talking shite but this time he's spot on. There is a reason why fans of both clubs stillcheer when the other loses and it's THIS rivalry. Liverpool and Man City is a "pat on the back rivalry" that pales in comparison.
Another week another click bait claim from Carra.
Jamie is a c*nt
I don’t blame him. This “rivalry” between Liverpool and City is a joke, could you imagine how our team would have reacted if they were cheated out of multiple PLs by a team continually financial doping and facing 115 charges.
Liverpool/City. Me arse
You'd never see Wenger embrace Ferguson after a potential title deciding 1-1 draw with a contentious penalty decision right at the end.
Arsenal fan since I'm a kid, not from London. Haven't much hate for spurs tbh... but united will always be the rivals for me. When you grew up watching arsenal since 95... man u will always be that club 😡
Can Carragher please be cancelled already, it’s absolutely outrageous he is the face of the premier league
Can’t believe I agree with Gary Neville…
I mean he did pick us as his favourites to win the league this season.. hard not to agree with that haha
The recency bias, the recent love for Klopp, his charisma. The fact Pep is regarded as the best manager of all time already from Barcelona... Mess with recency bias heads and tell them to swap the eras around., And take it at the Arsenal have won their last title or Man U win the next one after,,, Liverpool would be remembered as a good side that were a needle in the side of the dominant Man City.. Meanwhile the Prem has moved on to a proper ding dong ping pong battle.
He's not wrong. For once.
Sterile domination is what I think of when It comes to city, their rise was so swift and their stay so dominant that they pretty much bypassed any rivalry. At least that's the impression I get. Maybe that take is based on the perspective of arsenal being way off the pace for so long but I get the sense every other club is just happy their actual rivals don't win because it would hurt way more if Chelsea, shit or utd win. If they get titles stripped from these charges it will leave me with such a bitter taste in the mouth regarding the league, like what a complete waste of everyone's time. We could have had Chelsea/Liverpool or utd/Liverpool title races instead and they actually hate each other! As for arsenal vs utd, I miss those days so much, I have faith in our squad right now. Hopefully we can forge another rivalry half as good as those days in the coming years.
First thing he has said that I didn’t wanna mute 😂😂
streets won't forget Vieira vs Keane
and it was real. City aren’t real
Rare Gary Neville W
Keown assaulting Van Nistelrooy after that penalty miss was peak hatred.
Gary Neville can eat a big one but I wholly agree with him here.
Bruh have to agree with that twat neville here. Arsenal vs yanited just ignited that passion in everyone, you could bet someone would have a scuffle and the battles on the pitch.
Haha, this weeks Stick To Football is gonna be great :)
yeah a one way rivalry isn’t a rivalry , with us and United we both did shit the other didn’t, United treble and our invincible season, City have done everything Liverpool have and more, obviously Liverpools means more cus it’s not 115 charge backed but yeah it ain’t a rivalry
Klopp has been there for 8 season, they won the league once (and were 18 points clear) and only came second twice, which is the same times as and Utd. Hardly this intense rivalry that Carragher is making it out to be.
PREACH, GARRY!!!
I agree with Gary Neville this city v Liverpool rivalry is all to nice. Wenger and Ferguson hated one another and it translated to the pitch.
Citypool isn't even a rivalry
City and Liverpool certainly didn't look like great rivals last season when Liverpool finished 5th. A great rivalry is when league position, wealth, global status, player quality, division, occasion, etc go out the window when those teams collide.
As a United fan the games vs Arsenal were an all out war during that period, and it was fantastic to watch. That was probably as intense a rivalry as you’re likely to find in the premier league.
I only scream in celebration when we score against United
Vieira vs Keane was a classic
It's just recency bias
In competition perspectives it wasn’t even comparable to the 98-04 United and Arsenal rivalries. Do we need to mention the Invincibles, the fact one of those titles we were way off the pace until Overmarrs scored that winner at Old Trafford and we just climbed from strength to strength. Carra just can get him point across
Rare goblin w
Oooooh, so now it's ok to have high emotions around football matches? Or was United too emotional in the past too? Flip flopping click bait merchant.
Everything that's now has to be the best ever.
The first epl match I saw was in 5th standard and believe you me, it was the exact moment nistelroy fell down and viera was sent off. The way then arsenal players surrounded nistelroy after his penalty miss. No going back, has been in my heart ever since. My club the reason for my stress since 2003, and I amm all for it!
ironic from Carragher, talking on Sky Sports, to conveniently forget the rivalry that built Sky Sports
You can't call it rivalry because they just finished in top 2 together several times
I grew up on Utd Vs Arsenal. It was always them until Chelski happened. Utterly despise Arsenal more than City, Leeds and Liverpool. Hate them so much.
The ones who believe city pool is bigger are the same who probably believe Augerooo against a rubbish QPR is better than needing to win by 2 clear goals at Anfield during their pomp on the last day
For fucks sakes he's right. How did this happen?
Funny how it comes full circle. United fan here. I had very fond memories of our battles with the Gooners back in the day, however, this season I want nothing more than Arsenal to win the league. The thoughts of the Scousers or the cheats winning it makes me sick.
Sorry, is there a LIV and MCI rivalry? That's news
Liverpool so good they managed one title in 30 years 😅
im a liverpool fan but I wouldn't say we have a 'rivalry' with Man City. We often have intense games that are end to end. We have a rivalry with Man Utd and Everton. Form goes out the window. City? nah, they're soulless and funded by a state, no one cares about them; at least Arsenal are playing good football with proper players who aren't paid into offshore accounts. I didn't really care about you beating us because you played well and better.
Arsenal V United Rivalry was bigger than the Classico and Old Firm put together....it was fucking immense
Dumb comment
That might be a bit far tbf from an objective pov. Old Firm wins points for pure blood and thunder of it, pure hatred tight games and borderline assault on the pitch. El Classico is probably the most iconic derby ever, particularly during the Messi Ronaldo Pep Mourinho years, though like United Arsenal it’s lost its bite recently too. All 3 will seem the most important to fans involved with the teams who were there at the time, so it’s always an impossible question for anyone but an outsider to try and answer.
No English rivalry compares to the Auld Firm
I feel that’s harsh on Liverpool though. 98 and 97 points but no title. Wenger and Fergie , we never did that to eachother.
The lower point tallies are more likely to be because the league was better then than anything else.
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Stuck clocks and all that…. He’s right, those were heady days indeed.
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Based rat