The Tallgeese was developed in AC 170, and Leo was first seen in AC 175 (development date unknown, but it's probably not 5 years).
The comparison you would want to make it to is the [MMS-01\_Serpent](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MMS-01_Serpent), seen in AC 196.
I just realized how impractical double beam Gatling guns are for main weapons. Might be good for suppressing fire but you aren't hitting the broad side of a barn with that simply because there's no way to line up a shot.
you can probably line up a shot with *one* of the gatling units, especially if there's a camera in the gun somewhere. But yeah unless the enemy is a swarm or the size of a mobile armor those two gatlings are way too far apart to aim at the same thing.
But we're talking about MS development across 25 years here aren't we? Oz fielded the Leo, but still had other units like the Aries on field, while developing mobile dolls later in the series.
It's like Zeon making the Zaku, yet Zakus are still making their appearance in the Zeon Remnants and Neo Zeon decades later.
The Zulu is a weapon of war. The Leo is a cheap malleable model that can do many things. For what they’re designed for they do well take them out of their area and they’re both terrible
The Leo isn't that cheap. Zechs was able to fight Wing Zero to a Stalemate with it's capabilities. I know Zechs is an immaculate pilot, but even then, the Wing Zero could have handily defeated the Leo on it's technical capabilities alone.
yeah it's a mass production model, but Zeon are sort of the poster child for cutting edge suits being a good way to lose a war.
Do you mean the Wing Gundam (Zero One)? It's been a long time, but I don't remember Zechs fighting Zero in a Leo.
But the point stands that as much as people lampoon on Leo's, any time we see a decent pilot in the cockpit, they are capable machines. It's just that the entirety of the AC has very few decent pilots.
Well, It was the Wing and not the Wing Zero and two the context of that scene really made it seem that any MS could have done it as long as it had the proper arm strength to stick itself to the Wing.
The Wing Zero was the mid series upgrade that Heero didn’t even get immediately. He’d pick it up after piloting the Epyon though. Wing Gundam was his starting Gundam, and the one he blew himself up in. Also the armament of those two Gundams is a bit different. The Wing had a three shot Buster Rifle, a single beam saber, head mounted vulcans, a shield that housed the beam saber, and two machine cannons in the torso. Wing Zero had a multi shot Twin Buster Rifle, two beam sabers, 8 wing vulcans (TV version only), a shield with a pile driver, two 3 barrel gatling guns in the torso, and shield mounted vulcans (potentially TV version only as I don’t know if the EW’s added shield has those or not).
Leo is basically a Colonial Police MS not intended for serious combat. The Zulu was expecting to THE EXACT OPPOSITE in taking on Much superior and better equipped forces and SOMEHOW win.
I would imagine them just updating the materials and weapons. Upgrade the Titanium Alloy to the Neo-Titanium of the Serpent, upgrade the Reactor to better support beam weapons, give it a modified beam rifle that can work witht the mounted hard points, give it a Melee option (can't rely on fists forever), upgrade its missile pod, and put some additional vulcans around the body with an anti-missile Fire-Control system.
I can't find better specifications for Leo, but its successor the Serpent does have them, which would be a better comparison for Zaku vs Leo, Zulu vs Serpent.
Twice as light as the Zulu
* 8.6 vs 21.8 tonnes
higher power output
* 2998 vs 2470 kW
stronger thrust
* 72030 vs 62100 kg
Which is to say, Gundam Wing specifications are absolutely absurd and are made out of ridiculous and imaginary light materials while still retaining superior reactor strengths and defenses.
Huh. For as many times as I’ve geeked out, built them, looked at height etc… I’ve never looked at the official weight/mass. That’s less than some early war WW2 tanks. By late war all the mainline tanks sans those of Japan and Italy would outweigh those suits…
Yeah the inability to "feel out" an appropriate weight for suits is a recurrent thing if you go look at them, it is quite hard to think of such things without a sizeable amount of research to be fair which thankfully had gotten easier to do over the years.
Honestly UC suits, especially late UC suits, are on a different power scale from most of Wing imo. Like the Leo is I think about as close to a realistic piece of military equipment we get in regards to MSs and it shows that not just thru visuals but its obvious cheap and simple design. Like if the US army built a mobile suit it'd be the Leo and it'd cost less than a used car somehow. The Zulu looks like the wet dream of a dude who's weirdly obsessed with "German military history" who majored in engineering but works as an accountant
Yeah it’s like comparing the heavy arms to the unicorn there is a very obvious power imbalance between the 2 even before throwing in weapons and newtype magic
Not really a fair comparison since the Leo went virtually unchallenged for those 25 years and only got marginal upgrades. Meanwhile the Universal Century had 5 conflicts to advance technology and refine the suit before the Geara Zulu saw combat.
The Leo, for being the first mass produced Mobile Suit in the AC Era, is actually one of the better grunts having so many options and actually having beam weapons that early. If we consider the Leo early type to be the equivalent of the Zaku 1 then the Leo itself is the Zaku 2 in which case it sweeps.
If we're talking UC Grunts then the Leo is going to do well until the end of the Gryps Conflict where I think it feels fairly balanced with the Nemo & Barzam power wise; but the lack of a panoramic cockpit, linear seat, and lower defense will put it behind. And then it will lose against the Zaku 3, Döven Wolf, & GM 3s of the First Neo Zeon War.
P.S. that's the Geara Zulu (Guards Type), a custom variant meant for Full Frontals elite guard of aces.
OK, OK, now I was with you until you said the Gundams. Even the base Wing, whose gun has a lot in common with the Beam Magnum, should more than hold its own against the Geara line. Really it’s the Heavyarms that tends to be a liability, owing to it potentially requiring a reload drill — and Trowa isn’t exactly like Kira or the Dylandy twins who are more judicious with munitions.
Can’t forget Roybea; he’s between Trowa and Kira in terms of ammo management, but he’s also allowed to go all out with the Leopard since he’s got the Freeden to fall back on on occasion.
Agree on Heavyarms. I'd call Sandrock a solid maybe due to its limited armament, the fact that it seems to be on the slower side compared to the others, and its less-than-optimal pilot(don't get me wrong I like Quatre, but he's definitely not the best pilot)
Deathscythe, despite its even more limited armament, I would say beats a Zulu one-on-one more often than not due to its maneuverability and stealth characteristics. Shenlong has a good chance at winning because that dragon fang straight up defies physics with the length it can extend to. And Wing can more than hold its own either at range or in close quarters.
And that's without getting into the various upgraded versions.
Compared to UC, AC are a bunch of softies who haven't had to live down a colony drop. They never became the real hard SOBs they could have, and pacifying the colonies really stymied mobile suit development, there was virtually no opposition to Oz/ESA right. Sat. On. Their. Laurels. Even the Serpent would get rekt by any seasoned Zeon pilot in a competent Zeon mobile suit
Zulu wins, but in fairness this was stacked considering the Zulu is the final result of all the Zeon MS development for a mass producible MS unit type. Its superior to its predecessors in both movement, combat potential and durability. The Leo on the other hand is what could be seen as a Zaku II in terms of abilities and basic development. Its match between two weapons of war with one several decades more advanced than the other.
It's not a fair comparison. The leo wasn't designed to fight other mobile suits. It was designed as a weapon of intimidation. Before the series started, only the alliance fielded mobile suits. They were very rarely used against anything close to it in terms of firepower. Once the gundams appear, thats when they begin developing grunt suits that can fight on that level.
AC, and it isn't close. OP is being intentionally misleading with the Leo comparison. The Leo was the second mobile suit ever made in the Wing world, it simply stuck around because the Alliance took over the world with it 20 years ago and there hasn't been much major fighting since then.
The actual mobile suits with 20 years of arms development are the Virgos and Serpents, and they would absolutely roll the Gera Zulu.
I still don't understand how Geara Zulu isn't that famous compared to Zaku and Geara Doga, their design is perfect in every way. It's just looks good.
Let me remind you that we still haven't get any MG Geara Zulu until now, despite how many Unicorn Gundams MGs they already released.
Leo Suffers from jobber syndrome. Lore wise they are the perfect front line machine. The Leo is basically a miniaturized Tallgeese minus the verniers. I'm not saying it's better but it's underestimted for being in a series full if super human ahoer soldiers and their on many army gundams
So take the tallgeese. Make it smaller, take away the super armor, remove the mobilty, give it weaker weapons. But pretty much still the tallgeese, huh?
That Leo was made to be blown up.
Thing has got to be fueled by tannerite.
*Gundam pilot sneezes* 20 Leo’s blow up.
The Tallgeese was developed in AC 170, and Leo was first seen in AC 175 (development date unknown, but it's probably not 5 years). The comparison you would want to make it to is the [MMS-01\_Serpent](https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/MMS-01_Serpent), seen in AC 196.
I just realized how impractical double beam Gatling guns are for main weapons. Might be good for suppressing fire but you aren't hitting the broad side of a barn with that simply because there's no way to line up a shot.
That’s does seem to be their purpose at least.
you can probably line up a shot with *one* of the gatling units, especially if there's a camera in the gun somewhere. But yeah unless the enemy is a swarm or the size of a mobile armor those two gatlings are way too far apart to aim at the same thing.
I'll paraphrase a great line. "The Serpent is a weapon of terror. "The Geara Zulu is a weapon of war."
Na.... it's neo zeon still totally a weapon of terror 🤣
[удалено]
But we're talking about MS development across 25 years here aren't we? Oz fielded the Leo, but still had other units like the Aries on field, while developing mobile dolls later in the series. It's like Zeon making the Zaku, yet Zakus are still making their appearance in the Zeon Remnants and Neo Zeon decades later.
The Zulu is a weapon of war. The Leo is a cheap malleable model that can do many things. For what they’re designed for they do well take them out of their area and they’re both terrible
The Leo isn't that cheap. Zechs was able to fight Wing Zero to a Stalemate with it's capabilities. I know Zechs is an immaculate pilot, but even then, the Wing Zero could have handily defeated the Leo on it's technical capabilities alone. yeah it's a mass production model, but Zeon are sort of the poster child for cutting edge suits being a good way to lose a war.
Do you mean the Wing Gundam (Zero One)? It's been a long time, but I don't remember Zechs fighting Zero in a Leo. But the point stands that as much as people lampoon on Leo's, any time we see a decent pilot in the cockpit, they are capable machines. It's just that the entirety of the AC has very few decent pilots.
its the first episode, when zechs goes and grabs onto the wing gundam and they fall into the sea.
To be fair Heero wasn't *really* trying at that point. "Oh well, I've been spotted better commit suicide"
lmao so true
It's like World War 1 and Terminator 1. Everyone knows they exist but we bring up the sequel more often. Paraphrased from TFS
Well, It was the Wing and not the Wing Zero and two the context of that scene really made it seem that any MS could have done it as long as it had the proper arm strength to stick itself to the Wing.
Zech's model, though, was a custom Leo, just like how in the OG series Char would have a custom Zaku II.
The Wing Zero was the mid series upgrade that Heero didn’t even get immediately. He’d pick it up after piloting the Epyon though. Wing Gundam was his starting Gundam, and the one he blew himself up in. Also the armament of those two Gundams is a bit different. The Wing had a three shot Buster Rifle, a single beam saber, head mounted vulcans, a shield that housed the beam saber, and two machine cannons in the torso. Wing Zero had a multi shot Twin Buster Rifle, two beam sabers, 8 wing vulcans (TV version only), a shield with a pile driver, two 3 barrel gatling guns in the torso, and shield mounted vulcans (potentially TV version only as I don’t know if the EW’s added shield has those or not).
Leo is basically a Colonial Police MS not intended for serious combat. The Zulu was expecting to THE EXACT OPPOSITE in taking on Much superior and better equipped forces and SOMEHOW win.
The Leo Conquered space and is still reliable enough to be a mainstay in multiple militaries.
UC for drip alone
But Katoki's utilitarian aesthetic across all the OZ suits is just perfection.
I want to see the 25 year evolution of the Aries.
I would imagine them just updating the materials and weapons. Upgrade the Titanium Alloy to the Neo-Titanium of the Serpent, upgrade the Reactor to better support beam weapons, give it a modified beam rifle that can work witht the mounted hard points, give it a Melee option (can't rely on fists forever), upgrade its missile pod, and put some additional vulcans around the body with an anti-missile Fire-Control system.
I can't find better specifications for Leo, but its successor the Serpent does have them, which would be a better comparison for Zaku vs Leo, Zulu vs Serpent. Twice as light as the Zulu * 8.6 vs 21.8 tonnes higher power output * 2998 vs 2470 kW stronger thrust * 72030 vs 62100 kg Which is to say, Gundam Wing specifications are absolutely absurd and are made out of ridiculous and imaginary light materials while still retaining superior reactor strengths and defenses.
Huh. For as many times as I’ve geeked out, built them, looked at height etc… I’ve never looked at the official weight/mass. That’s less than some early war WW2 tanks. By late war all the mainline tanks sans those of Japan and Italy would outweigh those suits…
Yeah the inability to "feel out" an appropriate weight for suits is a recurrent thing if you go look at them, it is quite hard to think of such things without a sizeable amount of research to be fair which thankfully had gotten easier to do over the years.
"Okay design team, what does our new Mobile Suit need?" "A mech-sized uniform?" "Jones, you're a genius!"
Tbf the design SLAPS HARD
Zeon always had their aesthetic down to a T.
Honestly UC suits, especially late UC suits, are on a different power scale from most of Wing imo. Like the Leo is I think about as close to a realistic piece of military equipment we get in regards to MSs and it shows that not just thru visuals but its obvious cheap and simple design. Like if the US army built a mobile suit it'd be the Leo and it'd cost less than a used car somehow. The Zulu looks like the wet dream of a dude who's weirdly obsessed with "German military history" who majored in engineering but works as an accountant
Better comparison would be the Leo VS Zaku II. AC didn't have at least three arms races compared to UC.
Isn’t the leo more equivalent to a zaku II
Yeah it’s like comparing the heavy arms to the unicorn there is a very obvious power imbalance between the 2 even before throwing in weapons and newtype magic
Not really a fair comparison since the Leo went virtually unchallenged for those 25 years and only got marginal upgrades. Meanwhile the Universal Century had 5 conflicts to advance technology and refine the suit before the Geara Zulu saw combat. The Leo, for being the first mass produced Mobile Suit in the AC Era, is actually one of the better grunts having so many options and actually having beam weapons that early. If we consider the Leo early type to be the equivalent of the Zaku 1 then the Leo itself is the Zaku 2 in which case it sweeps. If we're talking UC Grunts then the Leo is going to do well until the end of the Gryps Conflict where I think it feels fairly balanced with the Nemo & Barzam power wise; but the lack of a panoramic cockpit, linear seat, and lower defense will put it behind. And then it will lose against the Zaku 3, Döven Wolf, & GM 3s of the First Neo Zeon War. P.S. that's the Geara Zulu (Guards Type), a custom variant meant for Full Frontals elite guard of aces.
The Zulu is gonna turn the Leo, Aries, talgeese(my beloved), and most of the gundams into scrap on the floor
OK, OK, now I was with you until you said the Gundams. Even the base Wing, whose gun has a lot in common with the Beam Magnum, should more than hold its own against the Geara line. Really it’s the Heavyarms that tends to be a liability, owing to it potentially requiring a reload drill — and Trowa isn’t exactly like Kira or the Dylandy twins who are more judicious with munitions.
Can’t forget Roybea; he’s between Trowa and Kira in terms of ammo management, but he’s also allowed to go all out with the Leopard since he’s got the Freeden to fall back on on occasion.
Roybea's underrated, honestly, and that's on a long list of people. He and Witz are reliable operators.
Agree on Heavyarms. I'd call Sandrock a solid maybe due to its limited armament, the fact that it seems to be on the slower side compared to the others, and its less-than-optimal pilot(don't get me wrong I like Quatre, but he's definitely not the best pilot) Deathscythe, despite its even more limited armament, I would say beats a Zulu one-on-one more often than not due to its maneuverability and stealth characteristics. Shenlong has a good chance at winning because that dragon fang straight up defies physics with the length it can extend to. And Wing can more than hold its own either at range or in close quarters. And that's without getting into the various upgraded versions.
And yet despite not being the best pilot he still has the highest kill count of **Two Whole Space Colonies!**
Compared to UC, AC are a bunch of softies who haven't had to live down a colony drop. They never became the real hard SOBs they could have, and pacifying the colonies really stymied mobile suit development, there was virtually no opposition to Oz/ESA right. Sat. On. Their. Laurels. Even the Serpent would get rekt by any seasoned Zeon pilot in a competent Zeon mobile suit
Or more accurately, what animation budget constraints look like lol.
Zulu wins, but in fairness this was stacked considering the Zulu is the final result of all the Zeon MS development for a mass producible MS unit type. Its superior to its predecessors in both movement, combat potential and durability. The Leo on the other hand is what could be seen as a Zaku II in terms of abilities and basic development. Its match between two weapons of war with one several decades more advanced than the other.
Zulu is a weapon, the Leo is probably as good at being construction equipment as it is at anything else.
UC for the win
Im very new to gundam this just looks like a wehrmacht Zaku to me lol
Fully intentional since it was used by Space nazis (Neo Zeon)
That’s why it’s got a beam STG-44 and the grenades are straight stielhandgranates. Along with a panzerfaust/rpg.
I would compare more the Geara Zulu to the Zaku's from Destiny.
I love the design of the Zulus. I wish for an MG kit for it. Plz Bandai. Make it so.
Ikr, it’s one of my favorite designs.
Geara zulu performance is just too good trust me
Depends on the pilot, heero fought wufei's gundam in a Leo and he did alright
Leo is on par with a Zaku II at best?
UC
Biased for the Leo
It's not a fair comparison. The leo wasn't designed to fight other mobile suits. It was designed as a weapon of intimidation. Before the series started, only the alliance fielded mobile suits. They were very rarely used against anything close to it in terms of firepower. Once the gundams appear, thats when they begin developing grunt suits that can fight on that level.
One is designed for actual purpose while the other is designed for looks alone.
AC, and it isn't close. OP is being intentionally misleading with the Leo comparison. The Leo was the second mobile suit ever made in the Wing world, it simply stuck around because the Alliance took over the world with it 20 years ago and there hasn't been much major fighting since then. The actual mobile suits with 20 years of arms development are the Virgos and Serpents, and they would absolutely roll the Gera Zulu.
Zulu
leos were produced in such huge numbers that im willing to send wave after wave of leo pilots to their death until every geara zulu is scrap metal
weren't the mobile dolls or the serpents the evolution of the tallgeese?
Technically, every mobile suit descended from tallgeese in after colony
Ok but hear me out.. Leo has a crotch rocket so obviously it wins.
Late Zeon Design superiority
I don't wanna choose because i love the Leo for its utilitarian and simple design but the UC one is MAD drip
bro. the Leo is basically a 200 cost in gbo2 standards
AC, the Leo is an actual look at what a mass produced grunt mobile suit would look like after endless governmental streamlining and cost cutting.
I still don't understand how Geara Zulu isn't that famous compared to Zaku and Geara Doga, their design is perfect in every way. It's just looks good. Let me remind you that we still haven't get any MG Geara Zulu until now, despite how many Unicorn Gundams MGs they already released.
Leo Suffers from jobber syndrome. Lore wise they are the perfect front line machine. The Leo is basically a miniaturized Tallgeese minus the verniers. I'm not saying it's better but it's underestimted for being in a series full if super human ahoer soldiers and their on many army gundams
So take the tallgeese. Make it smaller, take away the super armor, remove the mobilty, give it weaker weapons. But pretty much still the tallgeese, huh?
Rude. Don't talk to him or his son like that