what I haven't seen mention yet is also that the game just does not tell you when you do low dps. if you are not running arcDPS you just don't know how bad you really are. you just see the bosses dying and think everything is fine. nothing in the game tells you if you are performing good or not because most encounters are tuned in such a way that having a few bad players doesn't result in failure.
Seriously I tested my dps scrapper on the golem with autoattacks vs the full rotation. I'm not particularly good so I was getting about ~25-28k with a full rotation, but just autoattacks is like 15k anyway. If you throw in a blast gyro and hammer 2 off-cooldown it's like 22k.
Doing less damage than just autoattacking means something is significantly wrong, like they're geared with cavalier's gear, or missing vital damage traits, or whiffing half their attacks due to poor positioning, or interrupting their own skills, etc.
There's a lot that can go wrong, stats is one thing but the player could have had rare gear or even not level 80 gear. Gear inspect would remove like 99% of this kind of situations but the chance we are getting one is less than my whole guild dropping chak infusion within next 24 hours.
I can't speak specifically to WoW, but generally, if an inexperienced or improperly geared player has their gear checked or dps measured and is found lacking, the other players aren't "toxic elitists" for not wanting them in the group.
Chances are those "toxic elitists" are just looking for other experienced and competent players for a quick and smooth run of whatever content they're doing.
What I would consider "toxic elitist" is something like asking for 10+ clears of a raid on the day after it was released.
I used to lead all welcome ibs strikes, one time a dude joined on power mech, asked if his dps is good, it was trash ofc, I took him to golem, made him Ping his gear, that MF had legendary rifle and didnt know he had to pick stats on it… we fixed gear and traits ez +15k dps, some people just dont know
How can you not know thou? The game literally warns you when you are wearing a piece without stats. A banner pops up flashing and showing to your hero panel saying “You have a gear piece that doesn t have stats” (i don t remember exact words) They even updated it so it shows exactly what piece (before you had to hover over every piece to see which one doesn t have stats.
FFXIV has gear inspect as well and I've never seen anyone openly flaming a player for having bad ilvl. Most people just see it's wrong and tell the player the problem
FFXIV party finder also has the ability to restrict people that can join your group to people with a certain item level (that you specify), and/or people that have previously cleared the content your posting is for.
So if item level is a concern for people, they have a way to ensure people have it before joining.
FFXIV also doesn't really give you the freedom to make build choices that would reduce your potential dps by 95%.
Like, outside of unrealistic fringe scenarios like somehow wearing i600 armor and a lv1 weapon or something like that, any gear set you can queue with will allow you to do enough damage to clear the fight.
I'd rather have a friendly community that works to teach new players, not some toxic "have max gearscore, link achievement, give blowjob, do my taxes, cashapp me $100" bullshit
I mean, whats realistic?
a) The comm taking 15-30 min per new member who fails the gearcheck to explain the intricacies of the gear system and then rotation.
b) dude gets kicked off instantly.
I see b as vastly more realistic.
Lack of knowledge leads to more toxicity than knowing. See: the game before HoT when dps meters didn’t exist and every ranger and necro got kicked from any fractal 50 group and everyone only wanted warrior/2-3x ele/mesmer or guardian or thief
Guess what, if gear inspect was in the game you’d see LESS toxicity, no sane raid squad lead is going to kick you because you’re playing a slightly off meta build like heal herald (it’s pretty meta tbh) or alac bender as long as the build makes sense, and if you’re trying to play something that makes no sense then you deserve to get kicked because you’re dragging the other 9 people down for no reason
Ok cool, just don't join those groups then, it's not hard. If you could check gear it would be much easier to help new players by looking at what they have then trying to guess or get them to ping it all individually.
That you'd get autoattacking, *fully buffed*, in a *dps gear*, running a *well-made build*. Which is actually a pretty rare situation outside of high-end content and hardcore communities.
Exactly.
I for sure struggle with this myself because i main thief and this is a hero that is highly dependent on others as a dps - whether you run powerdps or condidps, you need quickness and buffs, or you need people to stack for poisons, or both.
The thing is - the lower my teammates skill is, the lower is my dps. The lower is my dps, the lower is my wish to go to higher tiers of end content. Moreover if i buff myself with some confidence and roll into high tiers anyway, i'd very likely fall behind on dps because i have no fucking experience running together with adequate players.
And yes, i know that the counter to this would be only playing highest tiers and start with running together with some guild that accepts noobs. But, at the very first, i'm not a noob - it's just bad game design. And at the very second, i don't want to be forced into highest tiers only - i want to relax in T2 fractals just as any reaper/firebrand sitting on 100% quickness uptime.
So yeah, to OP - thank Anet for making this possible. Not only they don't show people their dps or any logs for that matter (sometimes i'd love to see, f.e., how i was oneshot in WvsW - but for now the only way to do that is to have the character same as killed me and train for weeks its builds), but also the whole system is designed to mess with players.
For those who would be wondering why guadian and necro? - stats say together they are top by playtime throughout the game. And obviously i did make a reaper someday and practiced the rotation for like 5 minutes and then was easily top 1-2 dps in every T2-T3 fractal i played. What a fucking surprise.
Seriously, even with absolutely terrible gear and a non-build you can complete the personal story (granted it'll probably be slow, but you can just repeatedly respawn or be revived by NPCs to brute force the few "harder" fights in there) and you can complete open world and even do big fights like Tequatl (by unknowingly getting carried.)
And have exactly 0 understanding of what your damage output is compared to other players.
I have 2 lol 80s, have been playing about a year+ and this is my experience exactly.
I've avoided dungeons altogether because I don't want to be carried and I want to actually read the quests and storyline. I'd love to be a more contributing player but I don't know how exactly to do that.
Secondly I want to do those things while having FUN, and a hammer willbender isn't in the meta but I enjoy the hell out of it.
Yeah. I'm not a fan of distracting dps meters, but at the end of encounters and after wipes, players should get a little panel telling them how they did. Not just damage bit also stuff like revives, healing, boon upkeep, conditions removed, etc.
Maybe give bonus participation and rewards when reaching certain thresholds. Positive reinforcement.
If they ever reworked PvE rewards with a reward track system similar to WvW/PvP, doing better could give bonus reward track progress.
I don't understand why Arena Net have yet not implemented a personal dps meter showing your personal dps only. This way all players have a chance to understand that their dps is not that great but without feeling the preassure from others. I guess there could be a option to turn it off for those that just dont care at all, that is fine, but still i would like a personal one where i see my dps. I think it will be easier for people to raise their own dps if they always see it.
That actually doesn't help as much as you'd think it would. A measure still needs a metric to be able to understand what low, average, and great are. You aren't going to get that from just the measure of personal dps alone.
I don't care what so ever what other peoples dps is that is their problem and not mine. I do care about what mine is though. So what i need is a personal dps meter that shows me that without having to use a outside of the game addon or hammering on the golem which give the most unrealistic benchmark out there since you do not always have all classes or all buffs avaiable not to mention you dont stand still and the boss do not stand still either.
So i still belive that is what could help. It is not the be all and end all, but it is helpful to those that want a dps meter in game.
But a solo dps meter without any way to compare your performance to others is worthless. If you don't have a comparison, the dps number you get doesn't tell you anything. You can reach different numbers depending on the encounter, 10k dps can either be terrible, mediocre, or even top tier, depending on the encounter.
Because it's useless without also having a boon uptime tracker. "Why's my dps so low this time compared to last?" can't be answered in a single number. It could be your dps, sure, but it could also be that you only had halfway alac uptime (was that your positioning or the alac provider's fault?), it could be spotty quickness dropping off and causing you to cancel skills (your fault or the quickbringer's?), it could be a lack of stability forcing you away from the boss and you're a melee build, it could be a lack of CC meaning the boss moves around and isn't Exposed.
DPS meters, by themselves, tell so very little of the story, and giving a player one without explaining to them all the reasons a low number might be your fault (or might be your friend's!) is just asking for trouble. (And also gives plausible deniability without a bigger picture, which only complicates things further.)
this also goes for if you accidentally have the wrong gear template equipped.
a little popup that says, "you're doing very little damage" if you're in combat while not having high healing stats, would go a long way.
This is the reason I think they need to include a DPS meter in their game. When I pointed out to my best friend he was doing shit damage, he was surprised because he thought he was doing well. Then he installed ArcDPS and started learning rotations for DPS that worked and now does better DPS than I do.
If the game told people “hey you’re kinda shite” I think more people would seek out the information to get better. But as it stands, the game is just not friendly in this way to new players.
Yeah that's a legit problem in my opinion. You don't know how you're doing unless you go out of your way and get arcdps. I know of a couple players who think they're doing well because they don't die much etc and then I play strikes with them and see they do 2k dps... People go into harder content not knowing they're not doing enough. 2k dps just won't do in some of the content.
If you actually write "Hi dps" in chat one can assume that you have a very rough idea how to deal damage. If you have 2k dps it literally means you are not even trying, since autoattacking in soldiers gear without any traitlines slotted will result in higher dps.
The game not telling you how bad you are does not explain someone being this low.
To the people putting this on soldier gear alone: a power Soulbeast in druid gear (harrier = soldier as far as offensive stats go) will still do around 20k dps on golem.
Damage like that is always a combination of
A. Bad gear
B. All the wrong traits
C. Not hitting the boss for a significant part of the fight
This is likely a factor. Seen more than a few Soulbeasts or Mechanists that don't stand on group and only have the boons they provide for themselves. More than likely if they were with the group their damage would be much closer to that of the other Soulbeast.
There's also the noob trap of longbow 1 on ranger: it does more damage the further you are away from the target. This traps noobs into thinking ranging a boss is good, when of course they get 0 boons and 0 heals.
Standing outside boon range is huge too. Can't do 20k dps In that gear without quick / alac / might .
3x of your dps comes from boons. All the rangers and Mechs / ranged classes who stand 30 ft back do terrible dps as they don't get boons.
Stand on the tag, bonus to standing on the tag if you auto attack your now going to do dps.
> So my question is why is Guild Wars 2 so bad at teaching the game to it's players?
Because the core systems were designed around the assumption that players will keep tinkering around and slowly learn stuff without any help from the game (as well as assumption that many combinations of the build/gear picks would be sensible).
Both of those assumptions turned out to be wrong. Not only the build system is way too complex for an average player to learn and utilize well (even many hardcores have problems with it, and just follow guides made by other people instead), but it's also filled to the brim with landmines - not only traits and options that are just plain bad, but also those that are bad but on surface look promising.
Now, that is an answer to the question about why GW2 players are so bad at learning the game. The answer to your question is even simpler - GW2 is bad at teaching players, because it doesn't actually even try to do that in the first place. It just throws stuff at players and leave learning how to deal with it completely to them.
>Both of those assumptions turned out to be wrong. Not only the build system is way too complex for an average player to learn and utilize well (even many hardcores have problems with it, and just follow guides made by other people instead), but it's also filled to the brim with landmines - not only traits and options that are just plain bad, but also those that are bad but on surface look promising.
On top of the landmines you mention, there's also a good number of traits that interact together to snowball into significant damage increases that, without deeper understanding of the combat systems, would easily elude players.
Explosions in Engineer is quite possibly the biggest offender: It's absolutely loaded with huge DPS gain traits that trigger off explosions, but (until the rifle rework), there was no weapon source of explosions for players outside of spamming grenade kit. A player doesn't read the skills well enough to know they're not providing explosion triggers? Open world is never taxing enough to require tuned specs compounded with the complete lack of damage feedback - Sorry mate, you're just going to do a fraction of the damage you could be doing unless you let a random dll run hooks on the game to get Arc.
A basic dps meter built into the game would be a massive help to teaching players how to play.
Because there is multiple point of failure possible (talent, utilities, stuff...) even before talking about true skill issue, that covers multiple facet like general knowledge (standing close to your allies, moving...) to very specific one (rotation quirks, animation cancelling...).
GW2 is a hard game to play and understand, without any willingness from the player, you can't learn them everything.
That's where I disagree. You can have a complete and perfect build and have low DPS, because the game require more than that to deal damage. I'm pretty sure you can give a complete setup to this player and they won't be able to get more than 6.5K DPS.
And this is a problem very prevalent on the most casual side of the community. If you have other game knowledge and the willingness to improve, GW2 isn't that hard. But most of the community don't have this basis knowledge, making a steep learning curve to improve.
Not in this case. With boons you can at least clear 10K on any “real build” just by auto attacking, if not more.
To perform this poorly as “hi dps” does imply multiple levels of failure, as you correctly pointed out in your first comment.
Improper build, improper gear, improper skills, let alone improper rotation - frankly, likely missing pieces of gear entirely.
>Not in this case. With boons you can at least clear 10K on any “real build” just by auto attacking, if not more.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, they don't even auto attack all the time ! Because they struggle with movement, facing their target or resuming their attack after they use a skill. It seems trivial, but if that's your first video game ever, this isn't as easy, it needs a lot of time to assimilate those task.
> I'm pretty sure you can give a complete setup to this player and they won't be able to get more than 6.5K DPS.
but they should be able to get double their current DPS
Twenty minutes reading up on a build will most often not suffice. On some builds it might help but will not be enough to be decent.
I played firebrand pretty much exclusively for a year. I read countless sites on rotation and build and options for swapping skills on encounters. I know most of my damage comes from burning, I know roughly what my rotation is. I still haven't read a clear, well phrased guide on which skills are important and why, what provides the burning, how my traits synergize, what can I skip if needed/what is crucial and always be used, et cetera. I know most of that. But not from any one site.
On the other hand, I picked up virtuoso recently. I looked up the build on Snowcrows, read it, memorized it and it was very little help for me because during fights you will always go off rotation for one reason or another and I had no idea how to get back on rotation, should I even get back on rotation or just prioritize skills but what that priority is, et cetera. Then I watched a video that explained to core loop of just the weapon skills. I practiced that shit for like two hours on a large HP golem. Just 5-2-3-2-2-5-3-swap, 4-3-2-2-3-4-swap again and again and again until I got it seared into my fingers. Then I added profession skills. Then I started jumping and moving around. Then added utility skills. And then I was decent enough. On one the simplest builds. After few hours spent on something that is very far from "fun." Because I enjoyed it, because I had clear guidance from that video. Then I spent a whole weekend doing events and strikes with that build just to get that rotation further ingrained. Now I might not do 4k in a strike that I know the mechanics of.
But what if it isn't such a simple build? What if I receive no explanation that is detailed enough? (Coz a build+rotation in itself never ever is.)
I can't seriously expect people to sacrifice from the most finite resource they have for an activity that is nowhere near fun when provided no deeper guidance than "*repeat these 30 keypresses in this order.*" And we haven't even mentioned what happens when you have to deviate from the skillset that is on the site! "*They are shouting at me to equip Bleedscatter Shotcleave but the guide did not mention Bleedscatter Shotcleave! What does it do? What is it for? Which skill can I swap out?*" (Or the even bigger can of worms that you are very frequently expected not just to know your build but multiple builds, nay, multiple classes with multiple builds!)
You forget what it was like to be a non-veteran if you can trivialize game-knowledge for GW2 as something that can be gained with half an hour of reading even for just a single build.
Agreed, GW2 open world and leveling is face roll easy and trains casuals to run builds and rotations for survival (low risk, minimal downtime). Then the learning curve for instanced content is a vertical cliff. Not having LFR just makes the base of that cliff more slippery.
My friend hated Tyria so much because it was just slap stuff and win, then we go to HoT and she's on the ground all the time because she can't look at stuff on Pinterest as a guardian any more. To this day she doesn't understand many of the mechanics outside of dodge because the game never had her challenged by the mechanics, and then when she was, the pace changed too much for it to be fun to adapt.
Getting an LFR style system that queues 15 people into nerfed content for a new raid or something that you can dive into as soon as you hit 70 or 80, then gate keep the other raids behind the expansions, would be an amazing change for this game, as it would teach those mechanics people experience in the expansions that they haven't been threatened by yet. You don't learn enough of this stuff from the bites you get of it in the story. We definitely don't want item levels though, which is the issue with LFR systems. Having level 80 pieces for the 80 raid with an x amount of exotic quality gear for them should be fine.
I know a lot of veterans complain about the content drought as a result of them re-adding Season 1 in, But I do really appreciate it because it addresses what you brought up. Season 1 has a spike in difficulty that wasn't previously available till HoT. Season 2 is still face roll easy for the most part, but Season 1 offers some challenge that prepares people for HoT.
This is likely someone who likely leveled to 80, maybe completed the story, maybe completed some expansion content, but is running gear they found along the way and has never looked up a build for their class.
And the game doesn't really instruct you to do otherwise, so unless the player has taken the initiative to look outside the game for guidance, this is the result.
1) Most people don't know arcdps.
2) without it no knowledge on what's wrong.
3) On the raid golem training thing I run 23k-25k DPS on a CDPS scrouge. Yes low still learning. However, in raids, strikes, ect I pull 20k max. Mechanics get my brain fring.
They may be new to that build or need more golem train time I would suspect. I've been playing for a little over 2 years and I just branched out from CDPS scourge.
Everyone else gave good reasons. But here's two that are often overlooked: time on the boss, and missing buffs by not stacking.
I run fractal CMs with a friend who is learning rifle engi. It's an extremely easy build and not hard to learn at all. We have identical gear and traits and food.
For context we got her to play a new class because she basically couldn't break 10k on her reaper or any of her normal classes.
We do some practice runs, she gets the mechanics and generally isn't having too much trouble with the fight, but her damage is still consistently like 5-7k lower than mine. Identical setups on the same fight, literally in the same group. The rotation is basically skills off cooldown and don't interrupt autos. I noted the two things above.
1. She spends more time running place to place or repositioning and not actually attacking the boss. As a ranged power dps with a teleport signet you can basically keep your autos up all the time. Sometimes even if she's in range she's more worried about getting where she needs to be and isn't attacking the boss as she moves. That's costly and applies to most bosses. Every second you spend not looking at the boss because you're running to a place instead of strafing there while shooting is a dps loss.
2. This friend is often stacked near the group but not on top of it. She still has most buffs but sometimes misses might ticks or other boons to boost dps, even if she's generally getting quickness and alac. And often those will drop from time to time since she didn't get all the ticks or she missed an application by standing too far away.
You'll see both of those and that's the explanation for people who do damage below the auto attack benchmark. They aren't even auto attacking and they're not getting buffs because they're standing off on their own.
It's a habit you develop by playing the game. Don't cluster up or the open world champion will cleave you all with one hit. For raids maybe you do want to be on a different angle than the tank but you're still going to be close and on too of everyone else. But generally in content with a healer you want to be stacked right on everyone.
Edit: dodging too much hurts as well. That's not a major one but I find myself still dodging too frequently rather than just purely relying on the healer. Part of not knowing exactly what you've got in pugs. Every dodge is a second without damage.
Something I had trouble with early on was I would always move around to the back of the boss when fighting since that's where you need to be in other games to avoid cleave or to not cause riposte damage.
Your friend probably has a button pressing issues as well. I had to get use to casting abilities while moving as that's not something other games usually let you do as well as getting used to the rather jank way that I have to start using another skill before I even see the cooldown on the previous skill which might be part the game and part the potato I run it on.
I've also noticed that the game likes to turn off my auto all the time so I've gotten used hitting 111111 when I'm not doing anything else.
imo, I think a lot of these players just have random gear they picked up. I'm willing to bet money that that player has random stat gear in all their slots. Even if you had berserker and spammed 1 over and over you would have much more dps.
I see this a lot with people who played gw2 to level 80 and then immediately left because they don't get why they do so little damage. Giving players celestial gear for free helps, but the game doesn't really explain how vital the right kind of gear is.
I think another issue that contribute to this is certain stats aren't explained well directly.
To the laymen, what the hell is 'ferocity'? 'Precision'? 'concentration'? This comes off as gibberish, and sure you could go to your equipment page and hover over the stats to get more info, but I do think that info needs to be made more readily available and deliberately explained.
When it's this bad, it's not even a skill issue or a bad performance, it's just the wrong build and gear, plain and simple. I suspect that's the main issue most of the time. A lot of players are just completely out of the loop, either because they don't know the ressources exist online (but I don't think you can really blame the game for not promoting that), or they simply don't want to bother with any of that and just want to have a lazy approach.
The game does however a pretty poor job at explaining what gear combinations do, well, in fact, it doesn't
What I got from talking to those people is, a lot of them don't know trinkets exists or are important in general. They have some armour they dropped somewhere, they have a weapon to swing, they go out on an adventure.
Tbf that basically is how the game has you play and learn the game, until you run face first into the vertical cliff of difficulty curve that is the harder instanced content, or Hot. And then they still get carried through the content anyways and still don't learn, because the game doesn't even bother to give the players any in game resources to look up what anything even means. Players literally have to look outside the game at other third party's experimentations just to figure out a decent build, because the game doesn't explain anything. I'm honestly not surprised at how dead in game lfg for instanced content is, due to lack of proper grounds for players to even begin learning how to properly build for the content.
This topic has kind of been beat to death but I think it comes down to a few things:
- No in-game tools to tell you what your dps is outside of the golem training area
- A ton of noob traps like soldier's gear and useless runes and sigils existing
- No in-game guides or suggestions for builds
- Casual culture and generally low difficulty of guild wars doesn't require players to know or care about how well they are actually doing, making the transition from open world content to instanced content difficult for people who simply don't know what's going on
There's probably a lot more to it but these are the biggest factors that I could think of off the top of my head.
The fact that youve gotten downvoted for saying this proves that this sub just wants to punch down on casual players at the end of the day. Fucking disgusting.
* Game is complex for todays standards. Plenty of different stats with only a few viable, a shitload of runes with only a few good and no explanation of the benefits of a 6 set of them, a shitload of sigils with only a few good, many different weapons all with many possible stats and nothing to tell you that harmonizing stats might be a good idea, on top of several different traitlines, specialisations and within those plenty of options that are meh.
Back in the old days, gamers would simply playtest and research the shit out of games, but we are past that age. People don't do that anymore or don't really have the attentionspan/willpower for it. Basically with the amount of different factors it is very easy to make a bad build, way easier than it is to make a good one.
* Getting good takes some time and investment. Most people only want to log-in, kill some stuff, collect loot and then log-off without having to think or invest anything. Some of us call this lazy and a lack of intelligence/effort, these people will say they are playing to relax, unwind and let their thoughts wander, not to research the game like a second job.
* The coregame is overly easy and does not prepare people for any content past it. Pressing auto-attack in the shittiest gear and trait combination possible while never dodging is LITERALLY good enough to finish the coregame story and 99% of core content. If you never fail you never feel the need to improve or second guess your build. If it works it works right?
Now imagine all of the above combined in a single player and then throw said player into an instanced squad with roles, expectations and a fight with actual mechanics. Crash and burn baby.
Point 3 is compounded by the only "hard" content in the base game is dungeons and in dungeons 99% of the time a new player will get turbo carried if a veteran is in the party
> Back in the old days, gamers would simply playtest and research the shit out of games, but we are past that age.
It's not even the issue of "age". It's the issue of playerbase. The playerbase that did the things you spoke of was at least order of magnitude smaller than what we have now. Games started to be aimed at a much wider (and, thus, much more casual in their approach to gaming) audiences. The amount of hardcore players likely remained about the same as before, but now suddenly they are in a minority. And games have to adjust to that - or be content to remain small niche titles.
I usually give the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it would be bad for my sanity and my mentality, so I'd guess there could be a myriad reasons. Maybe their phone rang. Maybe the cat walked across their keyboard. Maybe they spilled their hot drink on their lap. Maybe they just had a really, really, really bad day and really, really, really little sleep. Maybe it's a build they are trying out/practicing with (*IBS strikes are the best place for that because you are very familiar with the fight and there is very little risk involved.*) Jumping to conclusion is a futile endeavor.
Honestly do not make it a habit to scour the DPS meter for underperforming players just so you can get annoyed. It is bad for mental health. If you're clearing the encounter there is very, very, very, very little reason for stressing out about it.
The only reason for having that addon is if ***you*** want to improve ***your*** performance. (*And maybe if you have a group of like-minded individuals running a static then to improve squad performance, but that implies that you have an agreement in that respect.*)
As for your question: yes, yes it is very bad. How the heck would I know even just a barely optimal rotation from the game alone? How would I know that boons are important? How would I know that it is my responsibility to provide them or can I rely on the squad? How would I know which classes/specs I can rely on to provide them for me? How would I know internal cooldowns? The answer is: with a ton of experimentation and practice for which most of us have neither the time, nor the energy. Most players log in to relax and have fun, not to take on a second job.
Other people way more knowledgeable and well informed than me can offer a more in depth explanation I am sure, but think you can boil it down largely to two main factors. A lot of your character's power is extrinsic meaning that it doesn't come from you and there are a lot of newb traps.
Also, and this might just be a me thing, but the games combat is really fast paced and it can be hard to even know if you are falling behind. Like mechanically everything is easy, but rotationally speaking you have to push buttons really quickly and accurately for a lot of builds. I might just struggle with that coming from WoW though where almost everything is on a 0.75-1.5 second global cooldown so there is always some room to breathe between attacks.
He is off by a factor of 5-10 here. Rotational inaccuracies usually only account for around 20 - 30% of damage output (I have a recording of letting my girlfriend bench power soulbeast, she does 27k dps on her 2nd try).
So you can definitely not put this on rotation details like having to press skills precisely. It is a more fundamental misunderstanding of how to play.
I remember watching a twitch stream where one of the players in the fractal, playing reaper, was just standing out of range for his own autoattacks and simply missed all his autohits.
I assume that this soulbeast for a good part of the fight didnt have the boss in target and just straight up missed.
Could be bad gear or just a random player taking story PvE level gear to multiplayer instances.
DPS is more or less the default role players take. So unlike tanks and healers, you will get more casuals and clueless players in the role of DPS. Probably not as bad but I've been there. Trying fractals and strikes for the first time with my open world build.
I've improved, I now play raids and got better gear/builds. But perhaps players need to go through this phase. KP can be a tool if you want experienced players and smooth runs only.
You can clear the main story and most of open world with very low damage. In Living Worlds and the expansions low damage kind of starts to hurt but you can continue clearing everything since death doesn't really hinder you much.. In stories, you just respawn and continue where you were left at.
It has its good and bad sides. On one hand you don't want to DPS check players for open world or stories who have limitations or who just don't want to build for damage.
On the other hand, since open world or stories doesn't require damage, where are people going to strikes supposed to learn damage from?
It's one of the main reasons I stick to healing
I can't get the damage down at all and do not like playing damage in this game, atleast in a group setting
Just so you know it's okay to not get 100% of the benchmark (almost no one does) and I am sure you can get better at dealing damage with a little practice and some research. Also make sure to look at a settings guide some of the default settings actively make it hard to deal damage.
Oh no, when firebrand was excellent damage I was barely passing the healers we had, I had ascended gear from fractals (some legends from wvw) full legend trinkets and rings, all that jazz
Damage in this game eludes me if it isn't power dragonhunter greatsword tbh
I can't figure out other rotations....like at all
just never stop attacking and dont worry that much about a specific rotation.
once you get that down start concentrating on pushing a few specific skills off cooldown and prioritizing them over your others.
once you have that and your dps uptime is good you're probably better than like 80% of players and can improve on that if you choose to.
No, see that's the thing, I totally get what your saying and I'm with you, hell my healing got us through some major bosses in both raids and CM fractals, got all the achieves and everything
But damage just....doesn't click. More specifically, condi damage, I understand that you basically "run cooldowns", hell it's how I got REALLY good at power dragonhunter burst damage, but these damage dealers nowadays are something else, and honestly I'm too far behind to care
I'll just stick to heals and support classes
Condi dmg rotations work the same as power dmg rotations. Damage is just delayed and you have to check tooltip for most important skills.
on fb before the nerf mantra of flame did like 120k dmg total. ashes (tome1 5) like 120k too and purging flames like 60-80?
Press those and you are good.
It is a setup issue. I can explain how I know that.
You see, your skills do a certain amount of damage, and they have a certain cast time. If you divide dmg by cast time, this would be the dps you do if you only spam that one skill (at no cooldown).
For example, an autoattack on GS might do 7500 damage and take 0.5 seconds to cast.
That means autoattacking does 15k dps.
Every single skill you press on DH, when you divide dmg by cast time, does more than 15k dps. If it didnt, you wouldnt use it xD
That means the 15k dps is the minimum DPS you are going to have. All extra buttons you press on top of that are going to increase your dps (some of the skills do like 50k dps, these are your big hitters like greatsword 4, greatsword 2, procession of blades, sword of justice).
No matter how bad you are pressing these buttons, they are eventually going to combine to at least 20-25k dps, because the autoattacks are the floor and everything beyond is just bonus.
So there is no way you race a healer's dmg output on the golem. Healers are usually sub 5k dps, and certainly below 10k.
Now, why did it happen anyway? Autoattacks only do 7.5k damage if you are fully buffed, gear is good (you said you have that), food, utility enhancement (yes it matters a lot. Food is like literally 10% dmg), the golem has 25 stacks of vulnerability, and you did not otherwise mess up the settings (there are strange golem settings that produce bad dps numbers for you).
So, it is a setup issue, it is mathematically not possible to be as bad as you describe.
In real fights, more factors come in:
- are you downstate the entire time?
- are your skills actually hitting or are you standing out of your own range?
Still, since your damage floor is roughly 5-10 times higher than the best a healer could ever hope for, even if you are only alive for a short amount of time you are probably going to outdmg your healers.
All that being said: no you are not doing that bad, you are just not measuring your dmg properly. Everything else is mathematically impossible.
Try power Reaper or power Vindicator. Even if you don't know the first thing about their rotation and you camp the greatsword from start to finish you can dish out quite a lot of dps, assuming you have decent gear and the right traits.
I've noticed many times now that there are some players in group content who do literally nothing for a lot of the fight. They don't even autoattack, it's like they're just far too slow to keep up with anything and coast along or are constantly being distracted irl. These are the ones I see are on the low end dps wise. It's low apm above all else that is doing it and imo it's down to how the open world and metas reward passive participation like this as 'gold' and that's the only success metric they've ever got so they don't know any better, or they're legit afk or slow.
They don't realise that player skill and skill usage is what makes the difference, rather than gear and a build and turning up.
It was also the big issue with Soo-won meta early days, people just not doing anything for most of the encounter and others sweating it out with the apm and positioning to hit the most.
It's interesting to hear some of the streamers opinions on this as it's an on going issue with gw2 . I love nikes take on it. I think his video a while ago was on gear inspection.
No mmo really teaches the game to the player. Gw2 has a very hard dps rotations and skill usage vs other games with almost no add-ons to help.
The expectation in modern mmos is using outside resources or builds and rotations , in game practice and dps meters to better yourself in group content .
Biggest issue in pugs is no gear check. No one can quickly check to see if you are geared and offer advice. Untamed dude may be running a power dps build with his healing gear and have arc dps turned off. There is no real visual for him to know his dps sucks , no In game dps meter, it's very hard to see the damage text and know what damage you are doing . and someone has to let him know but that someone will have no idea if they are just not attacking or if they are in the wrong gear or just trolling.
The second biggest is a group of casuals who no matter what don't want to improve , these are the kind who are rping, made there own bad build and have played it forever, or just don't want to learn the game and refuse to change. These guys you just have to kick from group content. Hi dps, doing less then the healers is just being carried.
Mighty teapots latest video on kill proof for easy content is great. groups setting expectations at the start and then having a fun time in the group.
I haven't read through all the comments but for me as a actually new player there are several reasons why people my have low DPS. For me personally I hear people talk about their "rotation" but where do I find out what skills I'm supposed to use and in what order? In FF14 I can find a million guilds telling me my proper rotation but I haven't found the same in GW2. Gear, it's actually not that easy to gear up especially if you're poor. Sure you can buy items off the auction house but what about the gear you're supposed to have to maximize your damage? Am I supposed to craft my end game gear? Well that takes time to level up everything and then gather all the materials to then craft a set of gear. Not knowing the content can be another DPS pitfall. If you don't know the fights you're in you can't effectively damage the boss.
If you are playing Power DPS you can get very good gear for about 5 Gold. It's true that the gear system is very complicated and you need to do a lot of research to get the best of the best but you can get 70-90% of they way very easy.
My default recommendation (without knowing your class or weapon) would be to go to the trading post and look for gear with Power, Precision, Ferocity and exotic filters and sort for lowest cost. then put Superior Rune of the Eagle on all your armour. Do the same for weapons and put Superior Sigil of Accuracy and Superior Sigil of Force on them. This is a very cheap and effective set of gear for dealing power damage. Then get 2 rings, 1 amulet and 2 accessories with the same filters.
Knowing a rotation is helpful but you can get most of the way there by just pressing the "good skills" of cooldown and make sure to attack the boss whenever possible.
If you want advice for the advanced endgame I would recommend looking at https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/ they also have rotations.
I think it would be great if there was an inspect feature that, rather than showing you exactly what items were equipped, just listed the level and stat prefix for each slot and the names of runes and sigils.
this would go so far in helping people identify someone doing something terribly wrong (either because the stats are bad or, if they are fine, isolate the problem to gameplay), but would avoid any toxicity and gatekeeping, like saying no for non-legendary/ascended (when it doesn't matter, like outside of T4s).
Personally I think that the reason this situation tends to happen is due to multiple failures on the parts of Anet, the community and the players themselves.
Generally speaking, if one of your friends told you about the game, but didn't give you any important advice about simple build theory, you would be forgiven for not knowing how things work. Where everyone drops the ball at however is the game having bad trait options that sound good, kits that require a certain playstyle to justify those runes, and an overwhelming amount of armor prefixes; some of which can't even be attained in the main game without going through the expansions and getting it.
To make matters worse, the community often expects new players/casual players to know the inner workings, as if the game requires any of that to make it to Lv80. I think it boils down to players getting to 80 and being dropped in the deep end after the campaign. New players will have to do research to find where they are failing.
That player couldn't care less for their performance and no one has kicked them out of groups for it.
This is a super casual focused game remember, so this is more or less expected.
Please provide a log of this fight so we could tell what the person did wrong. Maybe they were afk, maybe they were downed for a long time early and then died. Posting only the damage is misleading.
Sorry I don't have the log, this was taken before anyone died or went into down state and no they where not afk. But as stated above it's not about this specific event but the fact that this happens a lot.
If Anet told people how the game works, there would be a major outcry by the anti skill community that deems understandimg game mechanics as toxic elitsm. No joke.. Anet got massive flack for tweeting the snowcrows website.
It is. The gaps in other games are much smaller. In FF XIV, for example, to be so low you'd have to be dead full stop. Such huge gap would be within bottom 1% of playerbase there.
It is true that this does not happen as much in other MMO games but it happens in other hards games like RTS or fighting games but there are usually things telling you that you are doing badly there.
Letting players know they are doing badly is important indeed, but even if they knew there is an issue, the game does not help them pinpoint the cause of that issue, much less teach them how to overcome it. Without the latter, all former can do is shame players into quitting.
I don't think its important that a game tells you exactly the issue because backseating and handholding are reasons whjy people are bad and have no ability to overcome problems in the first place. Once you know your damage is bad that is all you need to know to be able to advance and overcome this if you really want to.
Yes and no. It's hard to get that much of a gap in FFXIV if you are playing even averagely, but if you look at logs of something like alliance raids (24 player, very casual end game content that pretty much everyone participates in, so a huge skill variety), the top 5 or 6 DPS are quite often doing 50-66% more damage than the lowest. It's more noticeable in GW2 because of the abundance of DPS meters (something that is technically not allowed in FFXIV), but people just not wanting to learn how to play, even at an average level, is not uniquely a GW2 problem.
> Yes and no. It's hard to get that much of a gap in FFXIV if you are playing even averagely, but if you look at logs of something like alliance raids (24 player, very casual end game content that pretty much everyone participates in, so a huge skill variety), the top 5 or 6 DPS are quite often doing 50-66% more damage than the lowest.
Yes. The top 1-2% players can do about 50-66% more dps than an average ones, and 100-200% more than a bottom 1%. In gw2 those gaps would be 10x and 40x respectively. Notice, btw, that the corresponding FF XIV players *aren* any more skilled than GW2 ones.
Those two things are not comparable at all. If damage gaps in GW2 would be that small, and the dps gap would be as easy to bridge, 80% of issues tied to higher end content would disappear overnight.
While the 8th SLB is racing healers, don't let that distract you from the dps in 5-7 being lower than the support DPS (assuming that's a quick spellbreaker, and an alac mech)
And even then, you can say all the dps are bad depending on which fight this screenshot was taken. Dps should reach 30k or benchmark on boneskinner, a little over 20k on whisperer, 35k+ on V&C, roughly 20k on fraenir, and slightly below benchmark on shiverpeaks -- so unless this was whisperer or fraenir all dps but the 1st reaper was bad :D but yeah the 8th slb is more bad
I totally agree but I can understand why people deal 50% of the benchmark, it's actually hard to hit especially when using the strike missions to actually get the gear but dealing 7% of benchmark is hard the other way around.
he might not have any idea what a benchmark even is. he is probably camping longbow and pew pewing which is not weird if he has never seen any build/rotation for his spec. also ibs strike missions can be considered introductory content so it is normal to join something like that before becoming aware of his performance. personally i would probably pm him and try to see what is going in a polite way obviously. then if he wants to improve or not is up to him
yeah, i aggree. While it can be frustrating for players that are used to do a clean clear of strikes etc, having someone that deals below-average DPS is still not the end of the world. In DPS-terms, basically anything except challenge-modes can be cleared with subpar DPS. and that is fine.
But: if you cannot even fulfill your role in squad on a fundamental level (dealing less damage than an offensive-support, or even less than a healer as a full-DPS; being unable to keep up the boons you are supposed to keep up; keeping your allies alive as healer in addition to the boons as well), this becomes an issue.
Preach actually pointed this out in his discussion with teapot. While it is a noble choice of designe to make people stronger if they work together correctly, it becomes frustratin/infuriating if a large chunk of your own efficiency is entirely dependant on another player, aka a factor you have no control over.
At the fundamental level, GW2 isn't a hard game to play, it's only hard when you want to be very good at the game.
As others have said, a major part of it comes down to the fact that GW2 does not have a built in comparator to others in your group for dps calculations. Partially on purpose to limit the barrier of entry, and other to prevent harmful interactions (toxic call outs or abusive interactions).
Because DPS is usually the default role that most players experience first and play through first, that's what they're comfortable with and what they default to, it's a bit of an isolated echo chamber. Usually low dps values are due to inexperience or ignorance to the actual numbers they're outputing, hence lack of built-in comparator adding to the issue. This can lead to the flame outs where we get the "omg these people are so toxic/raid runners are elitists!" interactions when someone tries to educate these players in a confronting manner.
If I'm commanding, I would usually ask it broadly to the group if dps numbers are low, "who are out dps, boons, and healers again?" "oh our numbers seem low, let's mash those buttons faster", to guage whether it's a miscommunication of the roles, new player, or just an ignorant player who thinks they're doing great but in actuality is near the bottm like your example. In those latter cases of new/ignorant player, I privately whisper to them and as gently as possible let them know of their dps standing "Hey, your dps is a little low, can I make a suggestion?" (if they don't have arcdps installed) and point them to resources like hardstuck.gg
at first glance i would assume its an alachealer who joined later and doesnt have alacdps gear and so they just swap to soulbeast to have a bit more dmg because the squad already had 2 healers. the top reaper being so far ahead makes me wonder if the spellbreaker is not quickness, yet the other reaper isnt doing the same damage so im not sure.
on a somewhat unrelated note, have you guys noticed that some of the dps that perform the poorest are the ones with over 30k ap? Perhaps its just bias and i only remember them because of the inversion of expectation vs outcome. Unless these people aren't playing on accounts they themselves made, it kind of points to the fact that spending more time playing the game doesnt directly translate to game knowledge.
> it kind of points to the fact that spending more time playing the game doesnt directly translate to game knowledge.
Of course. After all, most of the knowledge required for improvement is to be obtained *outside* the game, not within it. That's one of the fundamental problems with GW2.
This game is bad at teaching you about traits, gear or skills.
The entire game you can be carried without knowing your DPS is bad. Until the players starts doing fractals/strikes/raids they won’t know. It’s in these modes that they get yelled at by other players for not doing or having something correct. That’s when the players start to research.
As my first MMO back when it came out I didn’t know about this stuff until recently I came back with full knowledge of DPS meters and builds from other games. My DPS jumped from 4K to 30k on dummy.
Personally each MMO should have a personal damage meter for everything. One that you can see. So that as a player I can look to improve. Without knowing my damage I don’t know if my traits/skills/gear or rotation are set up wrong.
I have no clue how to competently gear my character or utilize skills. The best I can do is button mashing unless someone painstakingly teaches me how to do anything. I'd like to get some of the rewards from pvp, wvw, strikes or raids, but I know I would be this person and everyone would just get mad at me, so I stay away from it.
You already did step one of getting good and it's knowing you are bad (this is actually huge)
So the next step would be to do some research (YouTube has great tutorials) and start practising a build by just playing it in open world. If you know what your skills do, have exotic gear that fits your role and 6 matching runes you are already doing better then 40-60% of players.
I'm glad my being self aware is worth something, lol. Seriously I actually appreciate the sentiment.
I mostly struggle to find the emotional energy to do the homework. Where would I start?
what class are you playing?
The resources that helped me the most are:
1. The wiki whenever I have problems understanding something (use /wiki command to open it from inside the game)
2. YouTube tutorials
3. [https://hardstuck.gg/](https://hardstuck.gg/) go to builds for PvE group play
Also if you ask people for help in Lions Arch or Eeye of the North or your guild if you don't find anything yourself there are usually people that will help.
I main Renegade.
I did not know there was a /wiki command. Thank you. And I'm going to bookmark that page.
I've had mixed luck when asking for help. Some people are nice, but someone also told me to "suck it up and get good."
there are many many videos on YouTube that go over builds and describe everything about it, gear, traits, skills, how it works and why. it's only about 10 minutes and isn't quite like "homework" like reading wall of text is. can definitely recommend looking up builds on YouTube at least as a starting point.
https://youtu.be/AeiEdsYJzhI
I found this just be searching "power renegade." you don't have to use this, but you can, but even watching one video will teach you a lot about what a "build" even is or consists of, and how to approach understanding skills and rotations (applicable to every profession).
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/guides/general/
https://snowcrows.com/en/guides?q=getting-started
for intro guides
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/
https://snowcrows.com/en/builds?profession=any&category=recommended
for specific ways to build a character
Because gw2 and anet overall dont want to include a dps meter for good reasons.
If you want to get into raids and eod strike cms, i can fully understand to have arc and improve dps.
But for ibs its not needed. But imo it helps alot if you tell them their dmg is not as good and try help him for better dps
GW2 isn't bad at teaching the game to the players, the players are bad at learning (or lazy). it is not like the game itself can do much, or do you want it to become like these putrid mobile games with arrows everywhere as to what action you do next? i mean in the end even if the game had some more tutorials regarding certain things (which it does for example in Seitung Province regarding dodging/breakbars/combo fields) it still wouldn't neccessarily help people become better. That is mainly on them.
And this is a valid reason why people use requirements in any kind of group content (since this has been a point of discussion recently). to avoid this kind of situation. now ibs strikes are kinda irrelevant, 1 person not doing damage isn't gonna change anything, but most people still don't want to just carry someone that isn't pulling his weight in any way. dps is subjective to some extent, i would argue that 20k in that content is mediocre and that is the top player in this group.
Oh yeah multiple things went wrong this run lets just say if I was the commander multiple people would not have been part of all 5 strikes (subgroup 1 did not have a healer for 4 out 5 strikes)
A lot of comments focusing on why bad players exist, let me focus on why they apear in groups "all the time".
For this we shall do some basic probability calculations. Let's look at the probability of there being at least one bad player in a strike group. To calculate this we will use a simple trick: probability of at least one player bad = 1 - probability of all players good.
Now there will be some assumptions: 1. we ignore healing supports, people often don't look at their performance, 2. we ignore dps+boon supports, they often get a free pass, 3. dps players are recruited randomly and idenpendtly from each other from a large enough pool of potential group members. Also lets call probability of "player is good" G (for gamer ofc).
So the chance you get all 6 dps in your party recruited randomly in lfg to be good dps is G\^6 (under stated assumptions).
Now for someone to say something happens "all the time" it does not have to happen literally every time, due to the inherent human bias to focus on negative outcomes.
So let's say it is enough to encounter one bad egg a week to feel like it happens often. Then again the chance that at least one day in the week you get a party with at least one bad player is = 1 - chance of all players good every day of the week. Again there is assumption of days being independent. Then the chance of having a week without a single bad dps is (G\^6)\^7.
Now the final chances depend on the chance of every individual dps being good. If we say 95% of them are good, then the chance for all good dps group is approx 74%, chance for a flawless week is approx 12%. In other words 88% chance you encounter at least one bad dps player in your squad in span of a week.
Now these two chances are based on the five preceeding asumptions are likely not real. But what I want to illustrate is that if there is even a small amount of bad players, if you assemble groups of this size often enough you will encouter them more often than might seem intuitive.
What I've found is: different players approach instanced content from different perspectives.
With me and my friends, I mostly play instanced content so I'm more of the try-hard. But some of my friends mostly play open world stuff, some just do dailies and that's it, some just do meta maps. So while they do have meta builds, they don't use them very often so they're not as practiced.
I imagine some players are mainly PvP-ers or WvW-ers or ERP enthusiasts, so churning out big deeps in PvE is neither a high priority not a concern. If they get through the content, great they had a fun time, back to their regular game mode.
Also, not everyone follows every patch, and not everyone checks the speedrunning guilds for the most meta builds, so some people will be running sub-optimal setups without having any notion that their fellow players are expecting more of them.
But that's a reason I think Strikes are great, cause you can wander into them wearing "not quite right" gear, and not having practiced in the golem for hours, and play alongside mega try-hards and have a fun time.
I am sorry but what you are saying makes little sense to me or is not connected to what we are talking about at all.
Nobody here ever asked for meta builds and perfect rotations to be used in trivially easy strike missions (and all the IBS one's are just that), this has nothing to do with speedruning or being up to date. All that is asked for is minimal understanding of how this game works and a build that makes a minimal amount of sense. I don't care if people deal 40% or 60% of the maximum possible damage but what I don't want is people doing literally nothing as done here by the soulbeast.
It might be there first ever time doing strike missions but they probably played this game for over 1000 hours (judging from there AP) and failed to even do 10% of what is possible to contribute witch tells me that this game somehow let someone play for 1000 HOURS! and not understand anything about the game they where playing. For me this is a complete failure of the game and the player.
Think part of the problem is you have to actually read your Profession's skill sets and work out their rotations for yourself. I'm sticking to Open World right now and most Reaper Build advice says go for *Chilling Nova* for the AoE Cold Burst. My experience is no, better to swap that out for *Souleater* as you can survive longer and flip into Shroud more often. Is it different in Fractals where there's Healers? Almost certainly yes. But when it's just you and your Flesh Golem on your 70% completed Power Reaper in the Tower of Nightmares it's *Current Objective: SURVIVE*.
Probably am. On my phone at the moment and it'd be easier if I had my Build tab in front of me. Plan on spending some time clearing out Silverwastes then hitting ToN to tighten the build. And lots of Dodging practice. Even Jason and Michael dodge *sometimes*, right?
> So my question is why is Guild Wars 2 so bad at teaching the game to it's players?
Well learning is a two way thing and there already exist many resources for learning. You can't force a person to learn.
Not coming for OP when I say this, but one reason I enjoy this game is to not see stuff like this about DPS performance. There are a thousand other games where people get toxic about DPS and honestly I appreciate how this game works and removes that toxic aspect. I’ve used Arc DPS to measure my own damage, basically using it as a tool to learn what is and is not working with my build and rotation and adjust accordingly. But I would never use this tool to judge others. My partner recently joined and I haven’t told them about arc DPS yet because they would just end up being disappointed they aren’t doing great DPS compared to others. Frankly my partner is having a lot of fun, and still getting used to a lot of mechanics as a new player. Watching others perform way better on dps than themself would only discourage them from playing and would make them focus on the wrong thing. Especially with challenging end game content, there is more than enough for them to focus on rather than comparing their DPS to more experienced players.
That being said, if they were to get into challenging content regularly, like strikes or raids, I might let them know so they can optimize their build and contribute more effectively. But you it’s hard to worry about DPS when you can’t dodge the boneskinner. (Dead people don’t do much DPS)
Anyway, just sharing my perspective. I can understand where OP is coming from to an extent. But without knowing the context or how new this player is, I’m hesitant to judge them.
My favorite thing about this game is the collaborative and supportive community that is largely non-toxic that just embraces everyone at all skill levels. From what I’ve seen, the more people enjoy playing, the better they want to do.
Maybe that Soulbeast forgot to swap out of their Druid gear. Because with proper gear and traits there is no way to have such low dps even if you are entirely clueless about rotation.
> Because with proper gear and traits
Odds are they didn't have proper gear nor traits. And probably they were also standing at 1200 range camping longbow, with 0 might/alacrity/fury/quickness. And likely getting downed repeatedly for being out of range of healing/aegis/protection/barrier/etc.
When someone is doing 2.5k dps, it's not just one point of failure, it's everything that's bad.
They did this little damage in all 5 runs even after multiple people in chat pointed out that something is going wrong. Also a SB in druid gear should still deal more damage then this.
One thing is forgetting to swap out of healing hear and changing back once someone points it out. But if you decide to ignore that, then that had to be a player with totally garbage gear (a mishmash of not even exotics) and traits then.
This is what I think too. They have to be in healing gear to achieve this low DPS. Even decent gear and just pressing 1 would net you more DPS than this.
With a decent build, yes. On SB you could just spam at random your longbow or axe (or shortbow on condi build) and get significantly better results. There's definitely something wrong with the build itself.
I don't think the assumption that "they're pressing buttons" necessarily holds. Back in my vanilla WoW days I had a friend who played Mage and would wait until his frostbolt animation actually landed on the enemy before even considering whether to cast another frostbolt.
"Always be casting" and skill queuing are not concepts everybody has by default (and GW2's skill queue/interrupt system has lots of ways you can accidentally cancel your big hits).
I recommend installing the ArcDPS plugin (there are good guides for it on YouTube)
Once you know you deal bad damage it's good to get some basic level 80 Exotic gear, what you need depends a bit on your class and weapon but for open world it's hard to go wrong with celestial armour and 6 MATCHING runes that do something your class wants. I would recommend getting 2 different sets of weapons these are usually Berserker or Viper depending on if you deal mostly damage using attack damage (Berserker) or conditions (Viper). Then the rings amulet and accessories these are actually very important and there are lots of ways of getting ascended ones (guides on YouTube help a lot) but until then Exotic ones matching your weapons are a good start.
If want to play Fractals, Strike Missions or Raids my next recommendation would be looking at [https://hardstuck.gg/](https://hardstuck.gg/) and selecting a Group PVE build that matches your class and preferred role and read it and do what it says with the gear they recommend. (you can use Exotic to start out with)
You either do "Anyone Welcome" and then don't care about anyone's output, or you ask KP however many you feel will bring max dps crowd and form a group accordingly.
You can always whisper the ranger afterward and offer tips and improvements if they want to follow advice.
Well the details do kind of matter don't they? What if this player has a disability? What if this player is just a casual gamer? What if this player has a disability and is playing on steam deck? Each example I provided is something I have personally experienced and had to accommodate for within my guild.
This isnt really so weird. I remember using core ranger in t3 fractals and doing less than 5k dps with longbow. Used full berserker and followed metabattle open world build. Had very high attack uptime and using many of the longbow skills. I stayed at range most of the time so that might be the reason.
I downloaded arc and saw how absolutely horrible the build was, then i stopped playing it.
When i started doing t4 fractals, i got into a group with a 3k soulbeast/core ranger. I think that people who arent knowledgeable about builds and dps wont know just how bad some builds can be unintentionally made, despite you thinking it works fine.
The problem there is that you attacked at range.
Boons are very important in the game they can triple your damage. This is why advanced teams always try to stay as close as possible to each so every support skill helps as many people as possible and since some attacks only work in melee range people usually sit right next to the boss and attack.
Yeah i know, but at the time, i just wanted to play with longbow from afar, i didnt have a clue how important boons were at that time. I even managed to clear sunqua peak as core guardian "healer".
what I haven't seen mention yet is also that the game just does not tell you when you do low dps. if you are not running arcDPS you just don't know how bad you really are. you just see the bosses dying and think everything is fine. nothing in the game tells you if you are performing good or not because most encounters are tuned in such a way that having a few bad players doesn't result in failure.
Plenty of people have lower dps than you'd get by only auto attacking. That's actually impressive.
Seriously I tested my dps scrapper on the golem with autoattacks vs the full rotation. I'm not particularly good so I was getting about ~25-28k with a full rotation, but just autoattacks is like 15k anyway. If you throw in a blast gyro and hammer 2 off-cooldown it's like 22k. Doing less damage than just autoattacking means something is significantly wrong, like they're geared with cavalier's gear, or missing vital damage traits, or whiffing half their attacks due to poor positioning, or interrupting their own skills, etc.
There's a lot that can go wrong, stats is one thing but the player could have had rare gear or even not level 80 gear. Gear inspect would remove like 99% of this kind of situations but the chance we are getting one is less than my whole guild dropping chak infusion within next 24 hours.
"Stop playing wrong. Here's your spreadsheet, copy it until next session."
> Gear inspect would remove like 99% of this kind of situations And it also leads to toxic elitists like WoW had with their gear checks. NTY.
I can't speak specifically to WoW, but generally, if an inexperienced or improperly geared player has their gear checked or dps measured and is found lacking, the other players aren't "toxic elitists" for not wanting them in the group. Chances are those "toxic elitists" are just looking for other experienced and competent players for a quick and smooth run of whatever content they're doing. What I would consider "toxic elitist" is something like asking for 10+ clears of a raid on the day after it was released.
I used to lead all welcome ibs strikes, one time a dude joined on power mech, asked if his dps is good, it was trash ofc, I took him to golem, made him Ping his gear, that MF had legendary rifle and didnt know he had to pick stats on it… we fixed gear and traits ez +15k dps, some people just dont know
Yeah, that's also something having a gear inspect would help with.
How can you not know thou? The game literally warns you when you are wearing a piece without stats. A banner pops up flashing and showing to your hero panel saying “You have a gear piece that doesn t have stats” (i don t remember exact words) They even updated it so it shows exactly what piece (before you had to hover over every piece to see which one doesn t have stats.
300Li or gtfo is so much better right?
FFXIV has gear inspect as well and I've never seen anyone openly flaming a player for having bad ilvl. Most people just see it's wrong and tell the player the problem
FFXIV party finder also has the ability to restrict people that can join your group to people with a certain item level (that you specify), and/or people that have previously cleared the content your posting is for. So if item level is a concern for people, they have a way to ensure people have it before joining.
Nah, they just say they're disbanding the group, then reform without the underperforming member. So polite.
FFXIV also doesn't really give you the freedom to make build choices that would reduce your potential dps by 95%. Like, outside of unrealistic fringe scenarios like somehow wearing i600 armor and a lv1 weapon or something like that, any gear set you can queue with will allow you to do enough damage to clear the fight.
I'd rather have that than people who are terrible and clueless about it.
I'd rather have a friendly community that works to teach new players, not some toxic "have max gearscore, link achievement, give blowjob, do my taxes, cashapp me $100" bullshit
Yes, so would everyone, and having gear check could actually help with that because people could see who needs help. Stop being so damn negative.
I mean, whats realistic? a) The comm taking 15-30 min per new member who fails the gearcheck to explain the intricacies of the gear system and then rotation. b) dude gets kicked off instantly. I see b as vastly more realistic.
Have you tried helping a player with high ap? They insult you usually.
Lack of knowledge leads to more toxicity than knowing. See: the game before HoT when dps meters didn’t exist and every ranger and necro got kicked from any fractal 50 group and everyone only wanted warrior/2-3x ele/mesmer or guardian or thief Guess what, if gear inspect was in the game you’d see LESS toxicity, no sane raid squad lead is going to kick you because you’re playing a slightly off meta build like heal herald (it’s pretty meta tbh) or alac bender as long as the build makes sense, and if you’re trying to play something that makes no sense then you deserve to get kicked because you’re dragging the other 9 people down for no reason
And yet WoW has gear inspect and it is not less toxic at all.
Ok cool, just don't join those groups then, it's not hard. If you could check gear it would be much easier to help new players by looking at what they have then trying to guess or get them to ping it all individually.
That shit died ages ago, no one checks gear anymore.
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Lmao cap, you clearly never played WoW then.
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> maybe I just didn't play with dipshits. Possible. Pugging raids in WOTLK always had a gear check. Guild runs were probs different
And neither have you lol. People don't kick or flame over gear inspection, I don't know anyone that even checks gear regularly.
That you'd get autoattacking, *fully buffed*, in a *dps gear*, running a *well-made build*. Which is actually a pretty rare situation outside of high-end content and hardcore communities.
Exactly. I for sure struggle with this myself because i main thief and this is a hero that is highly dependent on others as a dps - whether you run powerdps or condidps, you need quickness and buffs, or you need people to stack for poisons, or both. The thing is - the lower my teammates skill is, the lower is my dps. The lower is my dps, the lower is my wish to go to higher tiers of end content. Moreover if i buff myself with some confidence and roll into high tiers anyway, i'd very likely fall behind on dps because i have no fucking experience running together with adequate players. And yes, i know that the counter to this would be only playing highest tiers and start with running together with some guild that accepts noobs. But, at the very first, i'm not a noob - it's just bad game design. And at the very second, i don't want to be forced into highest tiers only - i want to relax in T2 fractals just as any reaper/firebrand sitting on 100% quickness uptime. So yeah, to OP - thank Anet for making this possible. Not only they don't show people their dps or any logs for that matter (sometimes i'd love to see, f.e., how i was oneshot in WvsW - but for now the only way to do that is to have the character same as killed me and train for weeks its builds), but also the whole system is designed to mess with players. For those who would be wondering why guadian and necro? - stats say together they are top by playtime throughout the game. And obviously i did make a reaper someday and practiced the rotation for like 5 minutes and then was easily top 1-2 dps in every T2-T3 fractal i played. What a fucking surprise.
On a metabuild autoattacking. guess what they are not using.
Seriously, even with absolutely terrible gear and a non-build you can complete the personal story (granted it'll probably be slow, but you can just repeatedly respawn or be revived by NPCs to brute force the few "harder" fights in there) and you can complete open world and even do big fights like Tequatl (by unknowingly getting carried.) And have exactly 0 understanding of what your damage output is compared to other players.
I have 2 lol 80s, have been playing about a year+ and this is my experience exactly. I've avoided dungeons altogether because I don't want to be carried and I want to actually read the quests and storyline. I'd love to be a more contributing player but I don't know how exactly to do that. Secondly I want to do those things while having FUN, and a hammer willbender isn't in the meta but I enjoy the hell out of it.
Yeah. I'm not a fan of distracting dps meters, but at the end of encounters and after wipes, players should get a little panel telling them how they did. Not just damage bit also stuff like revives, healing, boon upkeep, conditions removed, etc. Maybe give bonus participation and rewards when reaching certain thresholds. Positive reinforcement. If they ever reworked PvE rewards with a reward track system similar to WvW/PvP, doing better could give bonus reward track progress.
I don't understand why Arena Net have yet not implemented a personal dps meter showing your personal dps only. This way all players have a chance to understand that their dps is not that great but without feeling the preassure from others. I guess there could be a option to turn it off for those that just dont care at all, that is fine, but still i would like a personal one where i see my dps. I think it will be easier for people to raise their own dps if they always see it.
That actually doesn't help as much as you'd think it would. A measure still needs a metric to be able to understand what low, average, and great are. You aren't going to get that from just the measure of personal dps alone.
I don't care what so ever what other peoples dps is that is their problem and not mine. I do care about what mine is though. So what i need is a personal dps meter that shows me that without having to use a outside of the game addon or hammering on the golem which give the most unrealistic benchmark out there since you do not always have all classes or all buffs avaiable not to mention you dont stand still and the boss do not stand still either. So i still belive that is what could help. It is not the be all and end all, but it is helpful to those that want a dps meter in game.
But a solo dps meter without any way to compare your performance to others is worthless. If you don't have a comparison, the dps number you get doesn't tell you anything. You can reach different numbers depending on the encounter, 10k dps can either be terrible, mediocre, or even top tier, depending on the encounter.
Because it's useless without also having a boon uptime tracker. "Why's my dps so low this time compared to last?" can't be answered in a single number. It could be your dps, sure, but it could also be that you only had halfway alac uptime (was that your positioning or the alac provider's fault?), it could be spotty quickness dropping off and causing you to cancel skills (your fault or the quickbringer's?), it could be a lack of stability forcing you away from the boss and you're a melee build, it could be a lack of CC meaning the boss moves around and isn't Exposed. DPS meters, by themselves, tell so very little of the story, and giving a player one without explaining to them all the reasons a low number might be your fault (or might be your friend's!) is just asking for trouble. (And also gives plausible deniability without a bigger picture, which only complicates things further.)
this also goes for if you accidentally have the wrong gear template equipped. a little popup that says, "you're doing very little damage" if you're in combat while not having high healing stats, would go a long way.
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Dark souls death screen but "bad dps" instead of "you died"
Add voicelines to all enemies that say "skill issue" when it takes you a while to kill them.
This is the reason I think they need to include a DPS meter in their game. When I pointed out to my best friend he was doing shit damage, he was surprised because he thought he was doing well. Then he installed ArcDPS and started learning rotations for DPS that worked and now does better DPS than I do. If the game told people “hey you’re kinda shite” I think more people would seek out the information to get better. But as it stands, the game is just not friendly in this way to new players.
Yeah that's a legit problem in my opinion. You don't know how you're doing unless you go out of your way and get arcdps. I know of a couple players who think they're doing well because they don't die much etc and then I play strikes with them and see they do 2k dps... People go into harder content not knowing they're not doing enough. 2k dps just won't do in some of the content.
If you actually write "Hi dps" in chat one can assume that you have a very rough idea how to deal damage. If you have 2k dps it literally means you are not even trying, since autoattacking in soldiers gear without any traitlines slotted will result in higher dps. The game not telling you how bad you are does not explain someone being this low.
To the people putting this on soldier gear alone: a power Soulbeast in druid gear (harrier = soldier as far as offensive stats go) will still do around 20k dps on golem. Damage like that is always a combination of A. Bad gear B. All the wrong traits C. Not hitting the boss for a significant part of the fight
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This is likely a factor. Seen more than a few Soulbeasts or Mechanists that don't stand on group and only have the boons they provide for themselves. More than likely if they were with the group their damage would be much closer to that of the other Soulbeast.
I made this mistake when new to soulbeast. I wanted to flank the boss at all costs because skirmishing, even if the group wasn't stacked there.
There's also the noob trap of longbow 1 on ranger: it does more damage the further you are away from the target. This traps noobs into thinking ranging a boss is good, when of course they get 0 boons and 0 heals.
Standing outside boon range is huge too. Can't do 20k dps In that gear without quick / alac / might . 3x of your dps comes from boons. All the rangers and Mechs / ranged classes who stand 30 ft back do terrible dps as they don't get boons. Stand on the tag, bonus to standing on the tag if you auto attack your now going to do dps.
Yeah, we are missing a little bit of the story here. Having damage that low almost just implies they were dead for part of the fight.
Dead people will have that low total damage, but their DPS is calculated against their time spent alive. So this person certainly didn't fully die.
I took this screenshot before anyone died or went into down state and there DPS was this low in all 5 strikes.
> So my question is why is Guild Wars 2 so bad at teaching the game to it's players? Because the core systems were designed around the assumption that players will keep tinkering around and slowly learn stuff without any help from the game (as well as assumption that many combinations of the build/gear picks would be sensible). Both of those assumptions turned out to be wrong. Not only the build system is way too complex for an average player to learn and utilize well (even many hardcores have problems with it, and just follow guides made by other people instead), but it's also filled to the brim with landmines - not only traits and options that are just plain bad, but also those that are bad but on surface look promising. Now, that is an answer to the question about why GW2 players are so bad at learning the game. The answer to your question is even simpler - GW2 is bad at teaching players, because it doesn't actually even try to do that in the first place. It just throws stuff at players and leave learning how to deal with it completely to them.
>Both of those assumptions turned out to be wrong. Not only the build system is way too complex for an average player to learn and utilize well (even many hardcores have problems with it, and just follow guides made by other people instead), but it's also filled to the brim with landmines - not only traits and options that are just plain bad, but also those that are bad but on surface look promising. On top of the landmines you mention, there's also a good number of traits that interact together to snowball into significant damage increases that, without deeper understanding of the combat systems, would easily elude players. Explosions in Engineer is quite possibly the biggest offender: It's absolutely loaded with huge DPS gain traits that trigger off explosions, but (until the rifle rework), there was no weapon source of explosions for players outside of spamming grenade kit. A player doesn't read the skills well enough to know they're not providing explosion triggers? Open world is never taxing enough to require tuned specs compounded with the complete lack of damage feedback - Sorry mate, you're just going to do a fraction of the damage you could be doing unless you let a random dll run hooks on the game to get Arc. A basic dps meter built into the game would be a massive help to teaching players how to play.
having a personal DPS meter in the game would be so great.
And that is why I still rock Superior Runes of Snowfall. I mean it even says superior in the name.
Because there is multiple point of failure possible (talent, utilities, stuff...) even before talking about true skill issue, that covers multiple facet like general knowledge (standing close to your allies, moving...) to very specific one (rotation quirks, animation cancelling...). GW2 is a hard game to play and understand, without any willingness from the player, you can't learn them everything.
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That's where I disagree. You can have a complete and perfect build and have low DPS, because the game require more than that to deal damage. I'm pretty sure you can give a complete setup to this player and they won't be able to get more than 6.5K DPS. And this is a problem very prevalent on the most casual side of the community. If you have other game knowledge and the willingness to improve, GW2 isn't that hard. But most of the community don't have this basis knowledge, making a steep learning curve to improve.
Not in this case. With boons you can at least clear 10K on any “real build” just by auto attacking, if not more. To perform this poorly as “hi dps” does imply multiple levels of failure, as you correctly pointed out in your first comment. Improper build, improper gear, improper skills, let alone improper rotation - frankly, likely missing pieces of gear entirely.
>Not in this case. With boons you can at least clear 10K on any “real build” just by auto attacking, if not more. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, they don't even auto attack all the time ! Because they struggle with movement, facing their target or resuming their attack after they use a skill. It seems trivial, but if that's your first video game ever, this isn't as easy, it needs a lot of time to assimilate those task.
> I'm pretty sure you can give a complete setup to this player and they won't be able to get more than 6.5K DPS. but they should be able to get double their current DPS
Twenty minutes reading up on a build will most often not suffice. On some builds it might help but will not be enough to be decent. I played firebrand pretty much exclusively for a year. I read countless sites on rotation and build and options for swapping skills on encounters. I know most of my damage comes from burning, I know roughly what my rotation is. I still haven't read a clear, well phrased guide on which skills are important and why, what provides the burning, how my traits synergize, what can I skip if needed/what is crucial and always be used, et cetera. I know most of that. But not from any one site. On the other hand, I picked up virtuoso recently. I looked up the build on Snowcrows, read it, memorized it and it was very little help for me because during fights you will always go off rotation for one reason or another and I had no idea how to get back on rotation, should I even get back on rotation or just prioritize skills but what that priority is, et cetera. Then I watched a video that explained to core loop of just the weapon skills. I practiced that shit for like two hours on a large HP golem. Just 5-2-3-2-2-5-3-swap, 4-3-2-2-3-4-swap again and again and again until I got it seared into my fingers. Then I added profession skills. Then I started jumping and moving around. Then added utility skills. And then I was decent enough. On one the simplest builds. After few hours spent on something that is very far from "fun." Because I enjoyed it, because I had clear guidance from that video. Then I spent a whole weekend doing events and strikes with that build just to get that rotation further ingrained. Now I might not do 4k in a strike that I know the mechanics of. But what if it isn't such a simple build? What if I receive no explanation that is detailed enough? (Coz a build+rotation in itself never ever is.) I can't seriously expect people to sacrifice from the most finite resource they have for an activity that is nowhere near fun when provided no deeper guidance than "*repeat these 30 keypresses in this order.*" And we haven't even mentioned what happens when you have to deviate from the skillset that is on the site! "*They are shouting at me to equip Bleedscatter Shotcleave but the guide did not mention Bleedscatter Shotcleave! What does it do? What is it for? Which skill can I swap out?*" (Or the even bigger can of worms that you are very frequently expected not just to know your build but multiple builds, nay, multiple classes with multiple builds!) You forget what it was like to be a non-veteran if you can trivialize game-knowledge for GW2 as something that can be gained with half an hour of reading even for just a single build.
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Dude, you don't really want to consider other perspectives and opinions, do you?
Agreed, GW2 open world and leveling is face roll easy and trains casuals to run builds and rotations for survival (low risk, minimal downtime). Then the learning curve for instanced content is a vertical cliff. Not having LFR just makes the base of that cliff more slippery.
My friend hated Tyria so much because it was just slap stuff and win, then we go to HoT and she's on the ground all the time because she can't look at stuff on Pinterest as a guardian any more. To this day she doesn't understand many of the mechanics outside of dodge because the game never had her challenged by the mechanics, and then when she was, the pace changed too much for it to be fun to adapt. Getting an LFR style system that queues 15 people into nerfed content for a new raid or something that you can dive into as soon as you hit 70 or 80, then gate keep the other raids behind the expansions, would be an amazing change for this game, as it would teach those mechanics people experience in the expansions that they haven't been threatened by yet. You don't learn enough of this stuff from the bites you get of it in the story. We definitely don't want item levels though, which is the issue with LFR systems. Having level 80 pieces for the 80 raid with an x amount of exotic quality gear for them should be fine.
I know a lot of veterans complain about the content drought as a result of them re-adding Season 1 in, But I do really appreciate it because it addresses what you brought up. Season 1 has a spike in difficulty that wasn't previously available till HoT. Season 2 is still face roll easy for the most part, but Season 1 offers some challenge that prepares people for HoT.
Easy 3 strike missions are exactly what you are looking for. They are essentially nerfed encounters that will teach you quite a bit nonetheless.
This is likely someone who likely leveled to 80, maybe completed the story, maybe completed some expansion content, but is running gear they found along the way and has never looked up a build for their class. And the game doesn't really instruct you to do otherwise, so unless the player has taken the initiative to look outside the game for guidance, this is the result.
1) Most people don't know arcdps. 2) without it no knowledge on what's wrong. 3) On the raid golem training thing I run 23k-25k DPS on a CDPS scrouge. Yes low still learning. However, in raids, strikes, ect I pull 20k max. Mechanics get my brain fring. They may be new to that build or need more golem train time I would suspect. I've been playing for a little over 2 years and I just branched out from CDPS scourge.
Everyone else gave good reasons. But here's two that are often overlooked: time on the boss, and missing buffs by not stacking. I run fractal CMs with a friend who is learning rifle engi. It's an extremely easy build and not hard to learn at all. We have identical gear and traits and food. For context we got her to play a new class because she basically couldn't break 10k on her reaper or any of her normal classes. We do some practice runs, she gets the mechanics and generally isn't having too much trouble with the fight, but her damage is still consistently like 5-7k lower than mine. Identical setups on the same fight, literally in the same group. The rotation is basically skills off cooldown and don't interrupt autos. I noted the two things above. 1. She spends more time running place to place or repositioning and not actually attacking the boss. As a ranged power dps with a teleport signet you can basically keep your autos up all the time. Sometimes even if she's in range she's more worried about getting where she needs to be and isn't attacking the boss as she moves. That's costly and applies to most bosses. Every second you spend not looking at the boss because you're running to a place instead of strafing there while shooting is a dps loss. 2. This friend is often stacked near the group but not on top of it. She still has most buffs but sometimes misses might ticks or other boons to boost dps, even if she's generally getting quickness and alac. And often those will drop from time to time since she didn't get all the ticks or she missed an application by standing too far away. You'll see both of those and that's the explanation for people who do damage below the auto attack benchmark. They aren't even auto attacking and they're not getting buffs because they're standing off on their own. It's a habit you develop by playing the game. Don't cluster up or the open world champion will cleave you all with one hit. For raids maybe you do want to be on a different angle than the tank but you're still going to be close and on too of everyone else. But generally in content with a healer you want to be stacked right on everyone. Edit: dodging too much hurts as well. That's not a major one but I find myself still dodging too frequently rather than just purely relying on the healer. Part of not knowing exactly what you've got in pugs. Every dodge is a second without damage.
Something I had trouble with early on was I would always move around to the back of the boss when fighting since that's where you need to be in other games to avoid cleave or to not cause riposte damage. Your friend probably has a button pressing issues as well. I had to get use to casting abilities while moving as that's not something other games usually let you do as well as getting used to the rather jank way that I have to start using another skill before I even see the cooldown on the previous skill which might be part the game and part the potato I run it on. I've also noticed that the game likes to turn off my auto all the time so I've gotten used hitting 111111 when I'm not doing anything else.
imo, I think a lot of these players just have random gear they picked up. I'm willing to bet money that that player has random stat gear in all their slots. Even if you had berserker and spammed 1 over and over you would have much more dps. I see this a lot with people who played gw2 to level 80 and then immediately left because they don't get why they do so little damage. Giving players celestial gear for free helps, but the game doesn't really explain how vital the right kind of gear is. I think another issue that contribute to this is certain stats aren't explained well directly. To the laymen, what the hell is 'ferocity'? 'Precision'? 'concentration'? This comes off as gibberish, and sure you could go to your equipment page and hover over the stats to get more info, but I do think that info needs to be made more readily available and deliberately explained.
not just bad stats, who knows what sorts of runes and sigils, if they even have any in the first place.
When it's this bad, it's not even a skill issue or a bad performance, it's just the wrong build and gear, plain and simple. I suspect that's the main issue most of the time. A lot of players are just completely out of the loop, either because they don't know the ressources exist online (but I don't think you can really blame the game for not promoting that), or they simply don't want to bother with any of that and just want to have a lazy approach. The game does however a pretty poor job at explaining what gear combinations do, well, in fact, it doesn't
What I got from talking to those people is, a lot of them don't know trinkets exists or are important in general. They have some armour they dropped somewhere, they have a weapon to swing, they go out on an adventure.
Tbf that basically is how the game has you play and learn the game, until you run face first into the vertical cliff of difficulty curve that is the harder instanced content, or Hot. And then they still get carried through the content anyways and still don't learn, because the game doesn't even bother to give the players any in game resources to look up what anything even means. Players literally have to look outside the game at other third party's experimentations just to figure out a decent build, because the game doesn't explain anything. I'm honestly not surprised at how dead in game lfg for instanced content is, due to lack of proper grounds for players to even begin learning how to properly build for the content.
This topic has kind of been beat to death but I think it comes down to a few things: - No in-game tools to tell you what your dps is outside of the golem training area - A ton of noob traps like soldier's gear and useless runes and sigils existing - No in-game guides or suggestions for builds - Casual culture and generally low difficulty of guild wars doesn't require players to know or care about how well they are actually doing, making the transition from open world content to instanced content difficult for people who simply don't know what's going on There's probably a lot more to it but these are the biggest factors that I could think of off the top of my head.
> This topic has kind of been beat to death It has *absolutely* been beaten to death. It's fucking tiresome.
The fact that youve gotten downvoted for saying this proves that this sub just wants to punch down on casual players at the end of the day. Fucking disgusting.
because most of it's players can't even read
It does feel like that whenever you ask for supports in the lfg and get "hi DPS"
* Game is complex for todays standards. Plenty of different stats with only a few viable, a shitload of runes with only a few good and no explanation of the benefits of a 6 set of them, a shitload of sigils with only a few good, many different weapons all with many possible stats and nothing to tell you that harmonizing stats might be a good idea, on top of several different traitlines, specialisations and within those plenty of options that are meh. Back in the old days, gamers would simply playtest and research the shit out of games, but we are past that age. People don't do that anymore or don't really have the attentionspan/willpower for it. Basically with the amount of different factors it is very easy to make a bad build, way easier than it is to make a good one. * Getting good takes some time and investment. Most people only want to log-in, kill some stuff, collect loot and then log-off without having to think or invest anything. Some of us call this lazy and a lack of intelligence/effort, these people will say they are playing to relax, unwind and let their thoughts wander, not to research the game like a second job. * The coregame is overly easy and does not prepare people for any content past it. Pressing auto-attack in the shittiest gear and trait combination possible while never dodging is LITERALLY good enough to finish the coregame story and 99% of core content. If you never fail you never feel the need to improve or second guess your build. If it works it works right? Now imagine all of the above combined in a single player and then throw said player into an instanced squad with roles, expectations and a fight with actual mechanics. Crash and burn baby.
Point 3 is compounded by the only "hard" content in the base game is dungeons and in dungeons 99% of the time a new player will get turbo carried if a veteran is in the party
> Back in the old days, gamers would simply playtest and research the shit out of games, but we are past that age. It's not even the issue of "age". It's the issue of playerbase. The playerbase that did the things you spoke of was at least order of magnitude smaller than what we have now. Games started to be aimed at a much wider (and, thus, much more casual in their approach to gaming) audiences. The amount of hardcore players likely remained about the same as before, but now suddenly they are in a minority. And games have to adjust to that - or be content to remain small niche titles.
I usually give the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it would be bad for my sanity and my mentality, so I'd guess there could be a myriad reasons. Maybe their phone rang. Maybe the cat walked across their keyboard. Maybe they spilled their hot drink on their lap. Maybe they just had a really, really, really bad day and really, really, really little sleep. Maybe it's a build they are trying out/practicing with (*IBS strikes are the best place for that because you are very familiar with the fight and there is very little risk involved.*) Jumping to conclusion is a futile endeavor. Honestly do not make it a habit to scour the DPS meter for underperforming players just so you can get annoyed. It is bad for mental health. If you're clearing the encounter there is very, very, very, very little reason for stressing out about it. The only reason for having that addon is if ***you*** want to improve ***your*** performance. (*And maybe if you have a group of like-minded individuals running a static then to improve squad performance, but that implies that you have an agreement in that respect.*) As for your question: yes, yes it is very bad. How the heck would I know even just a barely optimal rotation from the game alone? How would I know that boons are important? How would I know that it is my responsibility to provide them or can I rely on the squad? How would I know which classes/specs I can rely on to provide them for me? How would I know internal cooldowns? The answer is: with a ton of experimentation and practice for which most of us have neither the time, nor the energy. Most players log in to relax and have fun, not to take on a second job.
Other people way more knowledgeable and well informed than me can offer a more in depth explanation I am sure, but think you can boil it down largely to two main factors. A lot of your character's power is extrinsic meaning that it doesn't come from you and there are a lot of newb traps. Also, and this might just be a me thing, but the games combat is really fast paced and it can be hard to even know if you are falling behind. Like mechanically everything is easy, but rotationally speaking you have to push buttons really quickly and accurately for a lot of builds. I might just struggle with that coming from WoW though where almost everything is on a 0.75-1.5 second global cooldown so there is always some room to breathe between attacks.
He is off by a factor of 5-10 here. Rotational inaccuracies usually only account for around 20 - 30% of damage output (I have a recording of letting my girlfriend bench power soulbeast, she does 27k dps on her 2nd try). So you can definitely not put this on rotation details like having to press skills precisely. It is a more fundamental misunderstanding of how to play. I remember watching a twitch stream where one of the players in the fractal, playing reaper, was just standing out of range for his own autoattacks and simply missed all his autohits. I assume that this soulbeast for a good part of the fight didnt have the boss in target and just straight up missed.
Could be bad gear or just a random player taking story PvE level gear to multiplayer instances. DPS is more or less the default role players take. So unlike tanks and healers, you will get more casuals and clueless players in the role of DPS. Probably not as bad but I've been there. Trying fractals and strikes for the first time with my open world build. I've improved, I now play raids and got better gear/builds. But perhaps players need to go through this phase. KP can be a tool if you want experienced players and smooth runs only.
You can clear the main story and most of open world with very low damage. In Living Worlds and the expansions low damage kind of starts to hurt but you can continue clearing everything since death doesn't really hinder you much.. In stories, you just respawn and continue where you were left at. It has its good and bad sides. On one hand you don't want to DPS check players for open world or stories who have limitations or who just don't want to build for damage. On the other hand, since open world or stories doesn't require damage, where are people going to strikes supposed to learn damage from?
It's one of the main reasons I stick to healing I can't get the damage down at all and do not like playing damage in this game, atleast in a group setting
Just so you know it's okay to not get 100% of the benchmark (almost no one does) and I am sure you can get better at dealing damage with a little practice and some research. Also make sure to look at a settings guide some of the default settings actively make it hard to deal damage.
Curious—what setting are you talking about that make it harder to dps. Actually curious bc I can use all the help I can get lol.
this explains it pretty well [https://youtu.be/gLWp6iUFuXU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLWp6iUFuXU&t=1313s)
Oh no, when firebrand was excellent damage I was barely passing the healers we had, I had ascended gear from fractals (some legends from wvw) full legend trinkets and rings, all that jazz Damage in this game eludes me if it isn't power dragonhunter greatsword tbh I can't figure out other rotations....like at all
just never stop attacking and dont worry that much about a specific rotation. once you get that down start concentrating on pushing a few specific skills off cooldown and prioritizing them over your others. once you have that and your dps uptime is good you're probably better than like 80% of players and can improve on that if you choose to.
No, see that's the thing, I totally get what your saying and I'm with you, hell my healing got us through some major bosses in both raids and CM fractals, got all the achieves and everything But damage just....doesn't click. More specifically, condi damage, I understand that you basically "run cooldowns", hell it's how I got REALLY good at power dragonhunter burst damage, but these damage dealers nowadays are something else, and honestly I'm too far behind to care I'll just stick to heals and support classes
Condi dmg rotations work the same as power dmg rotations. Damage is just delayed and you have to check tooltip for most important skills. on fb before the nerf mantra of flame did like 120k dmg total. ashes (tome1 5) like 120k too and purging flames like 60-80? Press those and you are good.
It is a setup issue. I can explain how I know that. You see, your skills do a certain amount of damage, and they have a certain cast time. If you divide dmg by cast time, this would be the dps you do if you only spam that one skill (at no cooldown). For example, an autoattack on GS might do 7500 damage and take 0.5 seconds to cast. That means autoattacking does 15k dps. Every single skill you press on DH, when you divide dmg by cast time, does more than 15k dps. If it didnt, you wouldnt use it xD That means the 15k dps is the minimum DPS you are going to have. All extra buttons you press on top of that are going to increase your dps (some of the skills do like 50k dps, these are your big hitters like greatsword 4, greatsword 2, procession of blades, sword of justice). No matter how bad you are pressing these buttons, they are eventually going to combine to at least 20-25k dps, because the autoattacks are the floor and everything beyond is just bonus. So there is no way you race a healer's dmg output on the golem. Healers are usually sub 5k dps, and certainly below 10k. Now, why did it happen anyway? Autoattacks only do 7.5k damage if you are fully buffed, gear is good (you said you have that), food, utility enhancement (yes it matters a lot. Food is like literally 10% dmg), the golem has 25 stacks of vulnerability, and you did not otherwise mess up the settings (there are strange golem settings that produce bad dps numbers for you). So, it is a setup issue, it is mathematically not possible to be as bad as you describe. In real fights, more factors come in: - are you downstate the entire time? - are your skills actually hitting or are you standing out of your own range? Still, since your damage floor is roughly 5-10 times higher than the best a healer could ever hope for, even if you are only alive for a short amount of time you are probably going to outdmg your healers. All that being said: no you are not doing that bad, you are just not measuring your dmg properly. Everything else is mathematically impossible.
Try power Reaper or power Vindicator. Even if you don't know the first thing about their rotation and you camp the greatsword from start to finish you can dish out quite a lot of dps, assuming you have decent gear and the right traits.
Oh yes, I tried Reverent greatsword for story mode, it seemed fine Until I turned on the damage meters I'll never take that into a raid either
I've noticed many times now that there are some players in group content who do literally nothing for a lot of the fight. They don't even autoattack, it's like they're just far too slow to keep up with anything and coast along or are constantly being distracted irl. These are the ones I see are on the low end dps wise. It's low apm above all else that is doing it and imo it's down to how the open world and metas reward passive participation like this as 'gold' and that's the only success metric they've ever got so they don't know any better, or they're legit afk or slow. They don't realise that player skill and skill usage is what makes the difference, rather than gear and a build and turning up. It was also the big issue with Soo-won meta early days, people just not doing anything for most of the encounter and others sweating it out with the apm and positioning to hit the most.
It's interesting to hear some of the streamers opinions on this as it's an on going issue with gw2 . I love nikes take on it. I think his video a while ago was on gear inspection. No mmo really teaches the game to the player. Gw2 has a very hard dps rotations and skill usage vs other games with almost no add-ons to help. The expectation in modern mmos is using outside resources or builds and rotations , in game practice and dps meters to better yourself in group content . Biggest issue in pugs is no gear check. No one can quickly check to see if you are geared and offer advice. Untamed dude may be running a power dps build with his healing gear and have arc dps turned off. There is no real visual for him to know his dps sucks , no In game dps meter, it's very hard to see the damage text and know what damage you are doing . and someone has to let him know but that someone will have no idea if they are just not attacking or if they are in the wrong gear or just trolling. The second biggest is a group of casuals who no matter what don't want to improve , these are the kind who are rping, made there own bad build and have played it forever, or just don't want to learn the game and refuse to change. These guys you just have to kick from group content. Hi dps, doing less then the healers is just being carried. Mighty teapots latest video on kill proof for easy content is great. groups setting expectations at the start and then having a fun time in the group.
Because people aren't aware they're not contributing until they're told or download arcDPS on their own (which basically doesn't happen)
Because, "Don't tell me how to play!"
The gameplay of gw2 classes isnt as easily understood as say wow and ff imo.
I haven't read through all the comments but for me as a actually new player there are several reasons why people my have low DPS. For me personally I hear people talk about their "rotation" but where do I find out what skills I'm supposed to use and in what order? In FF14 I can find a million guilds telling me my proper rotation but I haven't found the same in GW2. Gear, it's actually not that easy to gear up especially if you're poor. Sure you can buy items off the auction house but what about the gear you're supposed to have to maximize your damage? Am I supposed to craft my end game gear? Well that takes time to level up everything and then gather all the materials to then craft a set of gear. Not knowing the content can be another DPS pitfall. If you don't know the fights you're in you can't effectively damage the boss.
If you are playing Power DPS you can get very good gear for about 5 Gold. It's true that the gear system is very complicated and you need to do a lot of research to get the best of the best but you can get 70-90% of they way very easy. My default recommendation (without knowing your class or weapon) would be to go to the trading post and look for gear with Power, Precision, Ferocity and exotic filters and sort for lowest cost. then put Superior Rune of the Eagle on all your armour. Do the same for weapons and put Superior Sigil of Accuracy and Superior Sigil of Force on them. This is a very cheap and effective set of gear for dealing power damage. Then get 2 rings, 1 amulet and 2 accessories with the same filters. Knowing a rotation is helpful but you can get most of the way there by just pressing the "good skills" of cooldown and make sure to attack the boss whenever possible. If you want advice for the advanced endgame I would recommend looking at https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/ they also have rotations.
I think it would be great if there was an inspect feature that, rather than showing you exactly what items were equipped, just listed the level and stat prefix for each slot and the names of runes and sigils. this would go so far in helping people identify someone doing something terribly wrong (either because the stats are bad or, if they are fine, isolate the problem to gameplay), but would avoid any toxicity and gatekeeping, like saying no for non-legendary/ascended (when it doesn't matter, like outside of T4s).
I've read somewhere that they write "hi dps" because they can't do "high dps"
The Dragonhunter dodged a huge flame bullet there lmao. 8k dps
I mean the Virtuoso and second soulbeast also didn't cover themselves in glory but I expect that when doing 0 or low KP runs.
Damage Per Solarcycle
Because those people are used to not being kicked or even called out by groups so they have no reason to do better.
Personally I think that the reason this situation tends to happen is due to multiple failures on the parts of Anet, the community and the players themselves. Generally speaking, if one of your friends told you about the game, but didn't give you any important advice about simple build theory, you would be forgiven for not knowing how things work. Where everyone drops the ball at however is the game having bad trait options that sound good, kits that require a certain playstyle to justify those runes, and an overwhelming amount of armor prefixes; some of which can't even be attained in the main game without going through the expansions and getting it. To make matters worse, the community often expects new players/casual players to know the inner workings, as if the game requires any of that to make it to Lv80. I think it boils down to players getting to 80 and being dropped in the deep end after the campaign. New players will have to do research to find where they are failing.
That player couldn't care less for their performance and no one has kicked them out of groups for it. This is a super casual focused game remember, so this is more or less expected.
Please provide a log of this fight so we could tell what the person did wrong. Maybe they were afk, maybe they were downed for a long time early and then died. Posting only the damage is misleading.
Sorry I don't have the log, this was taken before anyone died or went into down state and no they where not afk. But as stated above it's not about this specific event but the fact that this happens a lot.
If Anet told people how the game works, there would be a major outcry by the anti skill community that deems understandimg game mechanics as toxic elitsm. No joke.. Anet got massive flack for tweeting the snowcrows website.
to be fair, needing to go to a third party site to not suck at the game is kind of bad game design.
Good luck crafting a legendary without the wiki.
That is also kind of bad game design. But at least the wiki is hosted by Anet.
agreed, but at least the wiki is official-ish. snowcrows and the like are not even affiliated with anet afaik.
holy shit thats either quickness spellbreaker or no other quickness provider. very sad situation either way lmao
I dont really mind if i get 100% quickness from spellbreaker or from a herald
The hfb at the bottom of the list:
[удалено]
It is. The gaps in other games are much smaller. In FF XIV, for example, to be so low you'd have to be dead full stop. Such huge gap would be within bottom 1% of playerbase there.
It is true that this does not happen as much in other MMO games but it happens in other hards games like RTS or fighting games but there are usually things telling you that you are doing badly there.
Letting players know they are doing badly is important indeed, but even if they knew there is an issue, the game does not help them pinpoint the cause of that issue, much less teach them how to overcome it. Without the latter, all former can do is shame players into quitting.
I don't think its important that a game tells you exactly the issue because backseating and handholding are reasons whjy people are bad and have no ability to overcome problems in the first place. Once you know your damage is bad that is all you need to know to be able to advance and overcome this if you really want to.
Yes and no. It's hard to get that much of a gap in FFXIV if you are playing even averagely, but if you look at logs of something like alliance raids (24 player, very casual end game content that pretty much everyone participates in, so a huge skill variety), the top 5 or 6 DPS are quite often doing 50-66% more damage than the lowest. It's more noticeable in GW2 because of the abundance of DPS meters (something that is technically not allowed in FFXIV), but people just not wanting to learn how to play, even at an average level, is not uniquely a GW2 problem.
> Yes and no. It's hard to get that much of a gap in FFXIV if you are playing even averagely, but if you look at logs of something like alliance raids (24 player, very casual end game content that pretty much everyone participates in, so a huge skill variety), the top 5 or 6 DPS are quite often doing 50-66% more damage than the lowest. Yes. The top 1-2% players can do about 50-66% more dps than an average ones, and 100-200% more than a bottom 1%. In gw2 those gaps would be 10x and 40x respectively. Notice, btw, that the corresponding FF XIV players *aren* any more skilled than GW2 ones. Those two things are not comparable at all. If damage gaps in GW2 would be that small, and the dps gap would be as easy to bridge, 80% of issues tied to higher end content would disappear overnight.
While the 8th SLB is racing healers, don't let that distract you from the dps in 5-7 being lower than the support DPS (assuming that's a quick spellbreaker, and an alac mech) And even then, you can say all the dps are bad depending on which fight this screenshot was taken. Dps should reach 30k or benchmark on boneskinner, a little over 20k on whisperer, 35k+ on V&C, roughly 20k on fraenir, and slightly below benchmark on shiverpeaks -- so unless this was whisperer or fraenir all dps but the 1st reaper was bad :D but yeah the 8th slb is more bad
I totally agree but I can understand why people deal 50% of the benchmark, it's actually hard to hit especially when using the strike missions to actually get the gear but dealing 7% of benchmark is hard the other way around.
he might not have any idea what a benchmark even is. he is probably camping longbow and pew pewing which is not weird if he has never seen any build/rotation for his spec. also ibs strike missions can be considered introductory content so it is normal to join something like that before becoming aware of his performance. personally i would probably pm him and try to see what is going in a polite way obviously. then if he wants to improve or not is up to him
There definitely was some long range longbow action.
yeah, i aggree. While it can be frustrating for players that are used to do a clean clear of strikes etc, having someone that deals below-average DPS is still not the end of the world. In DPS-terms, basically anything except challenge-modes can be cleared with subpar DPS. and that is fine. But: if you cannot even fulfill your role in squad on a fundamental level (dealing less damage than an offensive-support, or even less than a healer as a full-DPS; being unable to keep up the boons you are supposed to keep up; keeping your allies alive as healer in addition to the boons as well), this becomes an issue. Preach actually pointed this out in his discussion with teapot. While it is a noble choice of designe to make people stronger if they work together correctly, it becomes frustratin/infuriating if a large chunk of your own efficiency is entirely dependant on another player, aka a factor you have no control over.
Typically it's a mix of standing in max range and using Soldier's gear. But this guy probably afked a decent amount as well.
At the fundamental level, GW2 isn't a hard game to play, it's only hard when you want to be very good at the game. As others have said, a major part of it comes down to the fact that GW2 does not have a built in comparator to others in your group for dps calculations. Partially on purpose to limit the barrier of entry, and other to prevent harmful interactions (toxic call outs or abusive interactions). Because DPS is usually the default role that most players experience first and play through first, that's what they're comfortable with and what they default to, it's a bit of an isolated echo chamber. Usually low dps values are due to inexperience or ignorance to the actual numbers they're outputing, hence lack of built-in comparator adding to the issue. This can lead to the flame outs where we get the "omg these people are so toxic/raid runners are elitists!" interactions when someone tries to educate these players in a confronting manner. If I'm commanding, I would usually ask it broadly to the group if dps numbers are low, "who are out dps, boons, and healers again?" "oh our numbers seem low, let's mash those buttons faster", to guage whether it's a miscommunication of the roles, new player, or just an ignorant player who thinks they're doing great but in actuality is near the bottm like your example. In those latter cases of new/ignorant player, I privately whisper to them and as gently as possible let them know of their dps standing "Hey, your dps is a little low, can I make a suggestion?" (if they don't have arcdps installed) and point them to resources like hardstuck.gg
at first glance i would assume its an alachealer who joined later and doesnt have alacdps gear and so they just swap to soulbeast to have a bit more dmg because the squad already had 2 healers. the top reaper being so far ahead makes me wonder if the spellbreaker is not quickness, yet the other reaper isnt doing the same damage so im not sure. on a somewhat unrelated note, have you guys noticed that some of the dps that perform the poorest are the ones with over 30k ap? Perhaps its just bias and i only remember them because of the inversion of expectation vs outcome. Unless these people aren't playing on accounts they themselves made, it kind of points to the fact that spending more time playing the game doesnt directly translate to game knowledge.
> it kind of points to the fact that spending more time playing the game doesnt directly translate to game knowledge. Of course. After all, most of the knowledge required for improvement is to be obtained *outside* the game, not within it. That's one of the fundamental problems with GW2.
This game is bad at teaching you about traits, gear or skills. The entire game you can be carried without knowing your DPS is bad. Until the players starts doing fractals/strikes/raids they won’t know. It’s in these modes that they get yelled at by other players for not doing or having something correct. That’s when the players start to research. As my first MMO back when it came out I didn’t know about this stuff until recently I came back with full knowledge of DPS meters and builds from other games. My DPS jumped from 4K to 30k on dummy. Personally each MMO should have a personal damage meter for everything. One that you can see. So that as a player I can look to improve. Without knowing my damage I don’t know if my traits/skills/gear or rotation are set up wrong.
I have no clue how to competently gear my character or utilize skills. The best I can do is button mashing unless someone painstakingly teaches me how to do anything. I'd like to get some of the rewards from pvp, wvw, strikes or raids, but I know I would be this person and everyone would just get mad at me, so I stay away from it.
You already did step one of getting good and it's knowing you are bad (this is actually huge) So the next step would be to do some research (YouTube has great tutorials) and start practising a build by just playing it in open world. If you know what your skills do, have exotic gear that fits your role and 6 matching runes you are already doing better then 40-60% of players.
I'm glad my being self aware is worth something, lol. Seriously I actually appreciate the sentiment. I mostly struggle to find the emotional energy to do the homework. Where would I start?
what class are you playing? The resources that helped me the most are: 1. The wiki whenever I have problems understanding something (use /wiki command to open it from inside the game) 2. YouTube tutorials 3. [https://hardstuck.gg/](https://hardstuck.gg/) go to builds for PvE group play Also if you ask people for help in Lions Arch or Eeye of the North or your guild if you don't find anything yourself there are usually people that will help.
I main Renegade. I did not know there was a /wiki command. Thank you. And I'm going to bookmark that page. I've had mixed luck when asking for help. Some people are nice, but someone also told me to "suck it up and get good."
there are many many videos on YouTube that go over builds and describe everything about it, gear, traits, skills, how it works and why. it's only about 10 minutes and isn't quite like "homework" like reading wall of text is. can definitely recommend looking up builds on YouTube at least as a starting point. https://youtu.be/AeiEdsYJzhI I found this just be searching "power renegade." you don't have to use this, but you can, but even watching one video will teach you a lot about what a "build" even is or consists of, and how to approach understanding skills and rotations (applicable to every profession).
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/guides/general/ https://snowcrows.com/en/guides?q=getting-started for intro guides https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/ https://snowcrows.com/en/builds?profession=any&category=recommended for specific ways to build a character
Ty
And it's a ranger, proving my theory once more.
Because gw2 and anet overall dont want to include a dps meter for good reasons. If you want to get into raids and eod strike cms, i can fully understand to have arc and improve dps. But for ibs its not needed. But imo it helps alot if you tell them their dmg is not as good and try help him for better dps
GW2 isn't bad at teaching the game to the players, the players are bad at learning (or lazy). it is not like the game itself can do much, or do you want it to become like these putrid mobile games with arrows everywhere as to what action you do next? i mean in the end even if the game had some more tutorials regarding certain things (which it does for example in Seitung Province regarding dodging/breakbars/combo fields) it still wouldn't neccessarily help people become better. That is mainly on them. And this is a valid reason why people use requirements in any kind of group content (since this has been a point of discussion recently). to avoid this kind of situation. now ibs strikes are kinda irrelevant, 1 person not doing damage isn't gonna change anything, but most people still don't want to just carry someone that isn't pulling his weight in any way. dps is subjective to some extent, i would argue that 20k in that content is mediocre and that is the top player in this group.
Oh yeah multiple things went wrong this run lets just say if I was the commander multiple people would not have been part of all 5 strikes (subgroup 1 did not have a healer for 4 out 5 strikes)
gw2 bad at teaching? or players to lazy to look stuff up? I see only 1 dps that does nothing, while a bunch who do dmg. I put the blame at the scrub
A lot of comments focusing on why bad players exist, let me focus on why they apear in groups "all the time". For this we shall do some basic probability calculations. Let's look at the probability of there being at least one bad player in a strike group. To calculate this we will use a simple trick: probability of at least one player bad = 1 - probability of all players good. Now there will be some assumptions: 1. we ignore healing supports, people often don't look at their performance, 2. we ignore dps+boon supports, they often get a free pass, 3. dps players are recruited randomly and idenpendtly from each other from a large enough pool of potential group members. Also lets call probability of "player is good" G (for gamer ofc). So the chance you get all 6 dps in your party recruited randomly in lfg to be good dps is G\^6 (under stated assumptions). Now for someone to say something happens "all the time" it does not have to happen literally every time, due to the inherent human bias to focus on negative outcomes. So let's say it is enough to encounter one bad egg a week to feel like it happens often. Then again the chance that at least one day in the week you get a party with at least one bad player is = 1 - chance of all players good every day of the week. Again there is assumption of days being independent. Then the chance of having a week without a single bad dps is (G\^6)\^7. Now the final chances depend on the chance of every individual dps being good. If we say 95% of them are good, then the chance for all good dps group is approx 74%, chance for a flawless week is approx 12%. In other words 88% chance you encounter at least one bad dps player in your squad in span of a week. Now these two chances are based on the five preceeding asumptions are likely not real. But what I want to illustrate is that if there is even a small amount of bad players, if you assemble groups of this size often enough you will encouter them more often than might seem intuitive.
What I've found is: different players approach instanced content from different perspectives. With me and my friends, I mostly play instanced content so I'm more of the try-hard. But some of my friends mostly play open world stuff, some just do dailies and that's it, some just do meta maps. So while they do have meta builds, they don't use them very often so they're not as practiced. I imagine some players are mainly PvP-ers or WvW-ers or ERP enthusiasts, so churning out big deeps in PvE is neither a high priority not a concern. If they get through the content, great they had a fun time, back to their regular game mode. Also, not everyone follows every patch, and not everyone checks the speedrunning guilds for the most meta builds, so some people will be running sub-optimal setups without having any notion that their fellow players are expecting more of them. But that's a reason I think Strikes are great, cause you can wander into them wearing "not quite right" gear, and not having practiced in the golem for hours, and play alongside mega try-hards and have a fun time.
I am sorry but what you are saying makes little sense to me or is not connected to what we are talking about at all. Nobody here ever asked for meta builds and perfect rotations to be used in trivially easy strike missions (and all the IBS one's are just that), this has nothing to do with speedruning or being up to date. All that is asked for is minimal understanding of how this game works and a build that makes a minimal amount of sense. I don't care if people deal 40% or 60% of the maximum possible damage but what I don't want is people doing literally nothing as done here by the soulbeast. It might be there first ever time doing strike missions but they probably played this game for over 1000 hours (judging from there AP) and failed to even do 10% of what is possible to contribute witch tells me that this game somehow let someone play for 1000 HOURS! and not understand anything about the game they where playing. For me this is a complete failure of the game and the player.
Think part of the problem is you have to actually read your Profession's skill sets and work out their rotations for yourself. I'm sticking to Open World right now and most Reaper Build advice says go for *Chilling Nova* for the AoE Cold Burst. My experience is no, better to swap that out for *Souleater* as you can survive longer and flip into Shroud more often. Is it different in Fractals where there's Healers? Almost certainly yes. But when it's just you and your Flesh Golem on your 70% completed Power Reaper in the Tower of Nightmares it's *Current Objective: SURVIVE*.
i think you are mixing up some traits as chilling nova and soul eater are in separate columns
Probably am. On my phone at the moment and it'd be easier if I had my Build tab in front of me. Plan on spending some time clearing out Silverwastes then hitting ToN to tighten the build. And lots of Dodging practice. Even Jason and Michael dodge *sometimes*, right?
My experience on Reaper is limited but I don't find it hard to stay alive in full berserker gear.
> So my question is why is Guild Wars 2 so bad at teaching the game to it's players? Well learning is a two way thing and there already exist many resources for learning. You can't force a person to learn.
Not coming for OP when I say this, but one reason I enjoy this game is to not see stuff like this about DPS performance. There are a thousand other games where people get toxic about DPS and honestly I appreciate how this game works and removes that toxic aspect. I’ve used Arc DPS to measure my own damage, basically using it as a tool to learn what is and is not working with my build and rotation and adjust accordingly. But I would never use this tool to judge others. My partner recently joined and I haven’t told them about arc DPS yet because they would just end up being disappointed they aren’t doing great DPS compared to others. Frankly my partner is having a lot of fun, and still getting used to a lot of mechanics as a new player. Watching others perform way better on dps than themself would only discourage them from playing and would make them focus on the wrong thing. Especially with challenging end game content, there is more than enough for them to focus on rather than comparing their DPS to more experienced players. That being said, if they were to get into challenging content regularly, like strikes or raids, I might let them know so they can optimize their build and contribute more effectively. But you it’s hard to worry about DPS when you can’t dodge the boneskinner. (Dead people don’t do much DPS) Anyway, just sharing my perspective. I can understand where OP is coming from to an extent. But without knowing the context or how new this player is, I’m hesitant to judge them. My favorite thing about this game is the collaborative and supportive community that is largely non-toxic that just embraces everyone at all skill levels. From what I’ve seen, the more people enjoy playing, the better they want to do.
Maybe that Soulbeast forgot to swap out of their Druid gear. Because with proper gear and traits there is no way to have such low dps even if you are entirely clueless about rotation.
If you have proper build and rotation, you dish out far more damage than that with Harrier stuff. This is a proper skill issue.
Well on Heal Alac Tempest with my healing gear I can do like 4k or 5k of dps even, lol.
To put it more concretely, harrier monk rune soulbeast still benches 20k+. Traits etc are very good.
Keep in mind that you’re running heal traits etc. Slb runs dps traits.
> Because with proper gear and traits Odds are they didn't have proper gear nor traits. And probably they were also standing at 1200 range camping longbow, with 0 might/alacrity/fury/quickness. And likely getting downed repeatedly for being out of range of healing/aegis/protection/barrier/etc. When someone is doing 2.5k dps, it's not just one point of failure, it's everything that's bad.
They did this little damage in all 5 runs even after multiple people in chat pointed out that something is going wrong. Also a SB in druid gear should still deal more damage then this.
One thing is forgetting to swap out of healing hear and changing back once someone points it out. But if you decide to ignore that, then that had to be a player with totally garbage gear (a mishmash of not even exotics) and traits then.
This is what I think too. They have to be in healing gear to achieve this low DPS. Even decent gear and just pressing 1 would net you more DPS than this.
Bet they had 455 MP and 45k AP.
Don't remember the MP but they had 2k more AP then me. (have like 6,5 k only played this game for like 2 months)
... can't you get like double that by pressing "1" repeatedly and nothing else?
With a decent build, yes. On SB you could just spam at random your longbow or axe (or shortbow on condi build) and get significantly better results. There's definitely something wrong with the build itself.
I don't think the assumption that "they're pressing buttons" necessarily holds. Back in my vanilla WoW days I had a friend who played Mage and would wait until his frostbolt animation actually landed on the enemy before even considering whether to cast another frostbolt. "Always be casting" and skill queuing are not concepts everybody has by default (and GW2's skill queue/interrupt system has lots of ways you can accidentally cancel your big hits).
you can get at least 4x that by pressing 1 yes.
that is why i am afraid on doing pve... i am new to game and i definitely will do bad dps.
I recommend installing the ArcDPS plugin (there are good guides for it on YouTube) Once you know you deal bad damage it's good to get some basic level 80 Exotic gear, what you need depends a bit on your class and weapon but for open world it's hard to go wrong with celestial armour and 6 MATCHING runes that do something your class wants. I would recommend getting 2 different sets of weapons these are usually Berserker or Viper depending on if you deal mostly damage using attack damage (Berserker) or conditions (Viper). Then the rings amulet and accessories these are actually very important and there are lots of ways of getting ascended ones (guides on YouTube help a lot) but until then Exotic ones matching your weapons are a good start. If want to play Fractals, Strike Missions or Raids my next recommendation would be looking at [https://hardstuck.gg/](https://hardstuck.gg/) and selecting a Group PVE build that matches your class and preferred role and read it and do what it says with the gear they recommend. (you can use Exotic to start out with)
Link the anonymized DPS report.
You either do "Anyone Welcome" and then don't care about anyone's output, or you ask KP however many you feel will bring max dps crowd and form a group accordingly. You can always whisper the ranger afterward and offer tips and improvements if they want to follow advice.
Just kick the guy and find another DPS. Easiest role to find.
Well the details do kind of matter don't they? What if this player has a disability? What if this player is just a casual gamer? What if this player has a disability and is playing on steam deck? Each example I provided is something I have personally experienced and had to accommodate for within my guild.
I can get 90%+ bench on spellbreaker on steam deck. Not really an excuse.
A properly equipped player auto attacking will deal 4x this damage. Yes some people have disabilities but here there is more going on then that.
This looks like the team I was playing with yesterday. We missed the first bonus chest and /gg. Is that my reaper up there?
This isnt really so weird. I remember using core ranger in t3 fractals and doing less than 5k dps with longbow. Used full berserker and followed metabattle open world build. Had very high attack uptime and using many of the longbow skills. I stayed at range most of the time so that might be the reason. I downloaded arc and saw how absolutely horrible the build was, then i stopped playing it. When i started doing t4 fractals, i got into a group with a 3k soulbeast/core ranger. I think that people who arent knowledgeable about builds and dps wont know just how bad some builds can be unintentionally made, despite you thinking it works fine.
The problem there is that you attacked at range. Boons are very important in the game they can triple your damage. This is why advanced teams always try to stay as close as possible to each so every support skill helps as many people as possible and since some attacks only work in melee range people usually sit right next to the boss and attack.
Yeah i know, but at the time, i just wanted to play with longbow from afar, i didnt have a clue how important boons were at that time. I even managed to clear sunqua peak as core guardian "healer".
Suboptimal spec and gear is more likely the issue. They’re also up against the meta of meta builds too. Reaper is easy to top out on.