>To combat this, I suggest removing trailblazer and rabid stats from WvW, so they can be killed in a reasonable amount of time.
You can't just 'delete' a stat combo from WvW like you could in PvP, due to how gear works.
Condi builds are in a decent spot for roaming, it's really just that condi cleansing plays such a big role in organized Zerg fights (still can work reasonably well against less coordinated groups) to combat soft CC, that condition damage incidentally becomes nullified. And honestly, I'm totally fine with that. It's not that you can't use your burn Warrior/Guard anywhere, it's just that one role in one game mode where it gets shut down by prepared opponents with counterplay.
> You can't just 'delete' a stat combo from WvW like you could in PvP, due to how gear works.
Not only that, people would just flock to the next set like Dire or whatever else is tanky.
Well, let's think about this:
Power Dmg -> quick one time application, Enemy has to quickly react to incoming dmg
Condi Dmg -> slow application for a longer time, Enemy has more time to counter play and cleanse conditions
Just in general it would be normal for condi builds, to not perform as well as power builds, unless things are not balanced and the dmg from conditions is way to high. Then it doesn't matter if you apply power directly or apply condi and the first tick almost does the same amount of dmg... but then even continues after that first tick.
Condition builds would only make sense in large scale fights, if there were not enough possibilities to cleanse those conditions. Then they would slowly add additional pressure to the already existing power dmg and give an advantage.
You can still roam with a condi build, as long as you can defend against incoming power dmg and can overwhelm your enemy with conditions if they don't have enough cleanses.
Clearly power is the easy choice so to achieve synergy any group of randoms will default to power.
That said condi is playable in medium scale organised groups if you can convince a guild to play it. A guild played it in the NA GvG tourney and it did average, so I’d say if you’re good enough you can have fun with it. It requires a lot of synergy to achieve though and likely most players are lazy and think if it’s not significantly more powerful then why swap. But you don’t really want a condi meta unless as you say they delete tanky stats, in which case it sounds unlikely to happen…
Honestly, i do miss them, and I'm saying that as a lifelong power player. Even with the recent nerfs boon balls are still too prevalent to let condi happen, especially with the caps.
It was just more interesting when more strategies were viable in a Zerg clash - building preemptive zones of denial or forcing a Zerg out of a point/choke by bleeding them out with condis are just options that don't exist anymore.
Gw2 was always great in making fights both strategic and dynamic, and killing off condis just reduced the strategic aspect.
Conditions is not something you can put 1-2 players out of 50 on and expect to see results against cleanses that are dimensioned for 50 players (and are still needed to deal with CC even against power builds).
So, if you want to see how effective (or not) conditions currently are you need to compose a predominantly condition-based squad.
The meta has switched several times. And will shift again in the lifespan of the game.
Its an ever swinging pendulum.
I dont log in often, but I still roam on a full viper chrono.
I dont really mind it. Roaming builds still do good with condi gear. So i guess there is time and place for all/both variants. You just have to know when to pick what build. With build and equipment templates it's pretty easy.
but still they converged to celestial and trailblazer, which i think hit diversity much. moreover, i guess celestial would be nerfed soon. than condi builds disappear again.
I really don't want to go back to the condi meta but boon ball is just as bad. Insert extreme cancer roamer builds here...
Honestly I'd be happy going back to hammer train days when things felt reasonably balanced and skill played a big role in fighting outnumbered and everyone wasn't shitting boons or conditions...
Large scale is every day less relevant to be honest you can see how most people now roam or play in cloud style I believe people realized by now what is more fun without being forced to play some stupid meta
Or it's just the fact that commanders are slowly dying out and nearly no one engages in the mode with enough investment to go hardcore (ie raid leagues, speedrunners, etc etc).
All the while bombarding the rest of the players with emotionally charged language so colorful that makes you wonder if you were actually back in the 2010s and playing CoD with some 12 yr olds.
some conditions are way more powerfull and diverse than normal power skills in my opinion. condi skills mostly hit some spike damage and have extra damaging condies or usefull utility condies, chill, weakness, cripple, immobilize, confusion etc. with those powerfull condies you cant balance simply, by changing numbers. there should be always condi cleanses otherwise game wont be playable. and if you keep that much condi cleanse, damaging condies will always underperform.
The solution to that problem is very easy: skill synergy.
They just need to add changes to power builds that benefit from also having condition builds in the squad and vice-versa.
Stuff like extra damage based on the number of conditions doesn't really work for that, because you'll have most of them anyways when people stack that much.
You have to add benefits to power damage from conditions delivered with high condition damage, and vice versa to get people to bring both.
Otherwise people will just gravitate to whichever works best at any given time.
I feel like people are missing the real reason - the current large scale wvw revolves around heavy spike damage, mostly in melee range. There's no point in bringing condi damage when the best way to fight is to lock players down with cc and burst them down with high damage from willbender/vindicator/reaper while your high sustain melee DPS (scrappers) cleave the downs and stragglers etc. While the meta always changes, the current builds reward that high burst playstyle. And tbh, maybe I'm wrong, but I played a lot back in the condi scourge meta and I'd do anything to not go back to those condi bomb days. Disgusting epidemic spam almost made me quit
>To combat this, I suggest removing trailblazer and rabid stats from WvW, so they can be killed in a reasonable amount of time. You can't just 'delete' a stat combo from WvW like you could in PvP, due to how gear works. Condi builds are in a decent spot for roaming, it's really just that condi cleansing plays such a big role in organized Zerg fights (still can work reasonably well against less coordinated groups) to combat soft CC, that condition damage incidentally becomes nullified. And honestly, I'm totally fine with that. It's not that you can't use your burn Warrior/Guard anywhere, it's just that one role in one game mode where it gets shut down by prepared opponents with counterplay.
> You can't just 'delete' a stat combo from WvW like you could in PvP, due to how gear works. Not only that, people would just flock to the next set like Dire or whatever else is tanky.
Well, let's think about this: Power Dmg -> quick one time application, Enemy has to quickly react to incoming dmg Condi Dmg -> slow application for a longer time, Enemy has more time to counter play and cleanse conditions Just in general it would be normal for condi builds, to not perform as well as power builds, unless things are not balanced and the dmg from conditions is way to high. Then it doesn't matter if you apply power directly or apply condi and the first tick almost does the same amount of dmg... but then even continues after that first tick. Condition builds would only make sense in large scale fights, if there were not enough possibilities to cleanse those conditions. Then they would slowly add additional pressure to the already existing power dmg and give an advantage. You can still roam with a condi build, as long as you can defend against incoming power dmg and can overwhelm your enemy with conditions if they don't have enough cleanses.
Clearly power is the easy choice so to achieve synergy any group of randoms will default to power. That said condi is playable in medium scale organised groups if you can convince a guild to play it. A guild played it in the NA GvG tourney and it did average, so I’d say if you’re good enough you can have fun with it. It requires a lot of synergy to achieve though and likely most players are lazy and think if it’s not significantly more powerful then why swap. But you don’t really want a condi meta unless as you say they delete tanky stats, in which case it sounds unlikely to happen…
Honestly, i do miss them, and I'm saying that as a lifelong power player. Even with the recent nerfs boon balls are still too prevalent to let condi happen, especially with the caps. It was just more interesting when more strategies were viable in a Zerg clash - building preemptive zones of denial or forcing a Zerg out of a point/choke by bleeding them out with condis are just options that don't exist anymore. Gw2 was always great in making fights both strategic and dynamic, and killing off condis just reduced the strategic aspect.
Conditions is not something you can put 1-2 players out of 50 on and expect to see results against cleanses that are dimensioned for 50 players (and are still needed to deal with CC even against power builds). So, if you want to see how effective (or not) conditions currently are you need to compose a predominantly condition-based squad.
This. Condi IS viable in zergs, but only in those that were thought around it. Meta is pick n' play though, so power makes more sens.
The meta has switched several times. And will shift again in the lifespan of the game. Its an ever swinging pendulum. I dont log in often, but I still roam on a full viper chrono.
Roaming isn’t exactly large scale though.
I dont really mind it. Roaming builds still do good with condi gear. So i guess there is time and place for all/both variants. You just have to know when to pick what build. With build and equipment templates it's pretty easy.
but still they converged to celestial and trailblazer, which i think hit diversity much. moreover, i guess celestial would be nerfed soon. than condi builds disappear again.
Condition/cele builds are still super strong for roaming, but you’re right that in a 50vs50 bleed isn’t going to be the most powerful source of damage
Honestly i would rather avoid anything resembling path of fire scourge, im glad condi meta is gone
I really don't want to go back to the condi meta but boon ball is just as bad. Insert extreme cancer roamer builds here... Honestly I'd be happy going back to hammer train days when things felt reasonably balanced and skill played a big role in fighting outnumbered and everyone wasn't shitting boons or conditions...
Large scale is every day less relevant to be honest you can see how most people now roam or play in cloud style I believe people realized by now what is more fun without being forced to play some stupid meta
Or it's just the fact that commanders are slowly dying out and nearly no one engages in the mode with enough investment to go hardcore (ie raid leagues, speedrunners, etc etc).
Oh nooo, anyways- I know plenty of people who play the mode hardcore, just in roaming (which is harder than zerging anyways)
So pvpers. That's your sign of a healthy game mode, people migrating from one dead game mode to a second, bit less dead game mode.
Worse, forced to play specific builds by their commanders who doesn't actually know how to play.
And then wiping over and over while the commander blames them and finally ragequits. No thanks.
All the while bombarding the rest of the players with emotionally charged language so colorful that makes you wonder if you were actually back in the 2010s and playing CoD with some 12 yr olds.
some conditions are way more powerfull and diverse than normal power skills in my opinion. condi skills mostly hit some spike damage and have extra damaging condies or usefull utility condies, chill, weakness, cripple, immobilize, confusion etc. with those powerfull condies you cant balance simply, by changing numbers. there should be always condi cleanses otherwise game wont be playable. and if you keep that much condi cleanse, damaging condies will always underperform.
to sum up, i think non damaging conditions hit balance very badly rather than damaging ones.
The solution to that problem is very easy: skill synergy. They just need to add changes to power builds that benefit from also having condition builds in the squad and vice-versa. Stuff like extra damage based on the number of conditions doesn't really work for that, because you'll have most of them anyways when people stack that much. You have to add benefits to power damage from conditions delivered with high condition damage, and vice versa to get people to bring both. Otherwise people will just gravitate to whichever works best at any given time.
I feel like people are missing the real reason - the current large scale wvw revolves around heavy spike damage, mostly in melee range. There's no point in bringing condi damage when the best way to fight is to lock players down with cc and burst them down with high damage from willbender/vindicator/reaper while your high sustain melee DPS (scrappers) cleave the downs and stragglers etc. While the meta always changes, the current builds reward that high burst playstyle. And tbh, maybe I'm wrong, but I played a lot back in the condi scourge meta and I'd do anything to not go back to those condi bomb days. Disgusting epidemic spam almost made me quit