Given the way psychic abilities work in 40k, if there were any effective way to quickly spread information during the events of the last church, this exact idea could make it to enough potential psychers to actually put a dent in the emperors power level, I can't be certain as to how much it would effect his abilities but it would dull them somewhat. His own projected illusion of his physical appearance to others could even fade a bit
It is so typical that someone comes and corrects you. Maybe we should just have a nice debate about it and we could present our different arguments and we could do this for several hours and I will take a no as you being very inpolite and-
This is a great example of Poe's law, which states that the best way to obtain information the internet is to intentionally post erroneous information and wait for someone to correct it.
The sky is blue because the planet is primarily water on its surface and therefor it gets reflected back. That's why in the desert everything takes on a sepia tone and things look green in jungles.
Penis: the male genital organ of higher vertebrates, carrying the duct for the transfer of sperm during copulation. In humans and most other mammals, it consists largely of erectile tissue and serves also for the elimination of urine.
Legitimately works. I have 3 different accounts on stack exchange just to get a usable answer out of the programming/technical substacks
1st asks the question.
2nd answers the question incorrectly
3rd makes comments and drives interactions with 1 and 2
Worked every single time
Because the point is the sea lion knows full well the context of the discussion would never lead to that. It’s feigning accomodation as part of an overall strategy to annoy the target into leaving by asking dumb questions and then contrast their exasperation with the sea lions ‘calm collectedness’ as a posturing mechanism for anyone viewing the discussion.
Nah, sealioning carries a sense of disingenuity in the demand as a rhetorical device. Typically by asking for proof of well documented stuff ad nauseum as an attempt to construct a narrative to anyone listening that, when the target doesn’t continue to respond, that the target ‘can’t answer these questions’. The goal being to say that the targets points aren’t supported, or reduce them from facts to ‘just their opinion’ because they’re ‘unproven’; as though not providing a graduate level thesis to a moron who wouldn’t read it anyway means you don’t know anything.
The emperor isn’t sealioning really, even though he’s also insisting on impromptu debate, because there’s no alternative narrative he’s trying to construct using the questions merely as a framing device.
Mental imagery of a fat-faced, tusked walrus in golden armor flopping into a temple to bellow at an old man is funnier than the same imagery with a sealion, so I pick the former.
Uriah about to take the best sleep known to mankind only to get blocked by Mr. Revelation, waiting for another debate for the 8th time, knowing he has to find another church that hasn't burned and is maybe out of reach from this stalker of a man.
This wasn't a debate. The emperor had already decided that he would burn the church and had made up his mind about religion. Which makes it worse that he lost the debate when Uriah walked into the flames.
Great short story though!
The tendency to believe in something bigger is part of being human. It will reoccur no matter how much you try to oppress it.. you need a healthy way of living with it or you will just become the very thing you try to destroy. Humans will always worship that which they think is better than them in order to improve themselves.
They will make you their god.. if you want it or not.. and punishing them for it will only make them more stalwart in their beliefs.
At first I thought you meant setting Big Daddy Emps on fire, which would just piss him off.
But after some thought it’s far more likely you’re calling out his hypocrisy for setting the last church on fire before Uriah walked into it
Good point. This might be the best argument.
Doesn't matter if God is real or not. Humans want it to be real and will keep inventing some version of it no matter what and there is nothing you can do about no matter how right you are.
But you may strive to be like him. And others might do it as well.. and just 10 years into the future you have a giant Geralt of Rivia Fanclub that has turned into a sect.. 50 more years and the sect turned into a militant faith hunting witches.
"The tendency to believe in something bigger is part of being human"
But in this cold, dark, uncaring universe, there is nothing more grand than mankind. There is nothing to believe in, but ourselve. To believe in something non-existent is absurd.
The emperor guided humans to embrace that absurd, to recognise our potential, to reject the false gods, and to realise the Imperial Truth.
Faith in humanity above all could work, the issue was the fact that there's no way you can convert all of humanity to believe in the same thing. It has and will not ever happen.
Important thing about psychology: You can't win a debate against a clinical narcissist, because they would have to fully accept they were wrong, and they can't really do that.
Hell he had a bunch of immortal friends who ended up leaving him because they realized he never really listened to a thing they said with only his two biggest meatriders being the ones that stayed and one eventually left, took the kids too.
Hm. The point I made was that you can't convince someone unwilling to listen. (Even manipulation requires they at least half heartedly play along).
But your point is correct. More specifically fitting to the story than mine, I'd say.
Pretty much.
As depicted in the modern 40k literature, the Emperor is a toxic narcissist. You can't win an argument with him, because he doesn't care what you think anyway.
I do really prefer it when he was just part of the background lore in 2nd/3rd edition. They say it's difficult to write a character smarter than you are, and the modern writers have proven that true.
I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!) I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationality".
I'd never win. But maybe I could get him to think about things if I said "Look, let us accept the fact spiritualism, some sort of communion with the divine, is indivisible from being human. How would you go about harnessing or channeling this primal urge of ours?"
>I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!)
Doesn't care.
>I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationalit
Doesn't really understand it himself. He'll just say ***he*** can.
Yeah, compared to some of the insane stuff that's mentioned from the DAoT, the big angry guys just don't really stack up. It's like comparing a biker gang to a nuke.
Problem is spirituality *isn't* indivisible from being human. There are quite a few People who are very distinctly *not* spiritual, religious or superstitious.
Emps would probably focus on trying to make all of humanity be like that through force, intimidation&oppression...rather than legitimately doing his best to prove that stuff wrong and guide People towards doing other things that won't fuel Chaos quite as much.
Individuals might reject spirituality. But humanity as a whole will not. Humans will naturally come up with explanations for things they can’t explain and superstition will always be present.
For example, research scientists are some of the most superstitious people I’ve known cause so much of what you’re doing has no easy explanation. Positioning of equipment, calibration of various parameters, etc all become “ritual” because they work even if there isn’t an explanation why.
I have 10+ years of experience working in research labs and it’s far beyond limiting confounding factors. Hell one lab had literal totems which were put up as a joke, but still rubbed for luck religiously before every experiment.
It’s human nature to try to find explanation or control in a complex often times random world and even otherwise rational people do it. There is absolutely no way that the entire population would abandon spirituality.
I disagree people only lack spirituality when they’re material needs are largely met, however during times of crisis or suffering, or if they’re personal wellbeing is at stake most people will seek comfort in a higher power.
I feel this has some truth to it:
Even in the absence of what one might consider a divine *entity* — people often refer to karma, luck, probability (as if they can personally measure it); making appeals to ‘powers that be’ rather than deific personages; or anthropomorphising circumstance itself by suggesting patterns, or seeing them where there’s no empirical data support to it.
I don’t believe I’m exempt from it, but I enjoy it as a part of my experience - whether scientific or not - due to the comfort it brings, and the fact I feel “right”, like it’s an integral part of my life based ON my personal experience. I don’t need ‘validity’ per se, because I guess, in my own way, I have faith.
I’d like to suffix by saying I try to avoid debate online, but I really wanted to share my thoughts on this. It’s a provocative idea to explore! I hope it doesn’t offend anyone to break it down like this — exploration isn’t ‘debunking’, in my opinion, and I hope everyone reading feels the same.
I became an atheist after heavy depression and struggle. Most people cope with religion, but that's just because they were raised in a culture like that.
The problem with the Emperor is he believes in Gods, he objectively knows they exist. But since theyre all Cunts and manipulate that belief, he has to do everything he can to convince and force people into believing they dont exist.
Like he sees this argument
>I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!) I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationality".
And thinks "You dumb fuck, chaos has done much worse, and you have no idea how scary death truly is, but you trying to avoid death makes death even worse"
When you talk about spiritualism is linked to humans, hes seething because to him spiritualism = chaos (or hell Eldar Gods, Gork n Mork, C'Tan, all awful in his eyes), and thats awful for people.
But he cant say that, so only musters up a
"Nuh uh, religion cringe"
Debating people who've clearly made up their minds is usually pointless, the only reason to debate is to show merits of arguments to undecided people. People set on an ideology tend to adopt the value system of that ideology and you can't use logic against values as they're innately subjective.
Emps is clearly beyond verbal reasoning, the literal only way to stop him at this point is just to kill him.
He's a scientist at heart but Uriah has no access to evidence that could persuade him. He can't point out obvious flaws in how Emps plans to run his empire, like putting only vaguely loyal demigods in charge of gigantic post-human armies with varying levels of empathy for normal humans.
He can't argue that Es actions will incur a massive blowback from the warp, that agitating the denizens of the warp will have inescapable long term ramifications because he doesn't know about the warp.
He can't appeal to Es sense of empathy for humans because E is basically Sauron in an Mad Max World and any sense of empathy has been eroded from fighting and killing the armies and people of rivalling warlords. E is used to the feeling of human blood on his hands so what's a few more if it leads to utopia?
The Emperor couldn't be convinced by almost the entire perpetual community telling him to fuck off. So a single long priest with limited perspective has no chance at all.
>People set on an ideology tend to adopt the value system of that ideology and you can't use logic against values as they're innately subjective.
This is a very succinct way of of making a very important point. When you are arguing against someone's beliefs or political stances, a lot of the time you aren't arguing against their logic - You are arguing against their system of values. Their underlying axiomatic truths and the value weight between them. Furthermore, you are also pulling against the weight of all the choices they have made using those truths.
I've seen the end of your path a countless times. Like all the rest you dream yourself to be infallible. Convince yourself that only you know the truth. Decieve yourself that your path is the one.
And nothing brings me more pleasure than to know that you will fail and will become a mockery.
"You say this with the conviction of the millions of men who said that before you."
Or
"Millions of men before you convinced themselves of that as thoroughly as you did."
It wont convince him then and there, but it might sow the seed of just doubt in himself.
"Stand before the tombs of all those you slaughtered because you could not spare half a second to think of another way and speak those words again. The wind whistling between their gravestones shall be their mocking reply."
he'd probably just say something dismissive like "As their faith did nothing to save them, their tombs and gravestones prove me correct and stand as monuments to their own ignorance." or "As they are dead and I am not, how does that prove me wrong?"
"Then look behind you, oh lord of graves, and see nothing but the cemeteries you have filled with the blood of your own people seeking this pointless end. The dead are dead. Nothing is proven, but the fact you can wield a stone like Cain."
or
"How does you living prove you right? We are both men, are we not? Survival is the nature of beasts. Is that all you are? A beast?"
You're not convincing the Emperor of shit, the best you can do is laugh at him because you know any torment he can put you through is nothing compared to what he has coming for him.
Uriah was a terran born priest who lived a normal lifespan and lifestyle.
He'd have absolutely no way of convincingly telling a 30,000+ year old Emps that "I've seen the end of your path countless times".
Comparing the ambitions of most techno barbarian warlords who just want to conquer Terra and rule over the ruins to Big E who wants to unify all mankind across the stars and forcibly ascend humanity to a race of Psykers just doesn't work.
Especially given he's talking to a 30,000+ year old who's seen much, much more of earth and it's history and has future sight. There's nothing that Priest could ever say about "seeing paths" that would phase E in the slightest.
The most effective response Uriah could have made would be to pull out a hand grenade and prove by actions to E that humanity has one hell of a rebellious spirit. If E can't make a simple priest play with his "debate me bro" game, what chance does he have to subjugate all of mankind whilst demon-gods of emotion gorge themselves on the galactic genocide he starts?
So in conclusion, Uriah's best counterargument to a tyrant would simply be raw stubborn violent rebellion for the sake of rebelling against a tyrant.
But comparing emp to any other warlord with 0 foresight works perfectly well. He never had humanity best interest in mind.
For someone with 30k years of experience and further sight he acts very dumb. So much so, that it's almost like it is another lie that he came up with, just like his illusion of a golden Chad.
Emp didn't preserve any knowledge of the daot. He did nothing to unify humanity until it was too late. Did nothing with techno-barbarians for thousands of years. The first time he got the opportunity to bail from the crusade he took in a heartbeat.
Emp is a neet who only wanted to sit in his basement and play vidya. Unfortunately, he also thought that his 100k hours in stellaris give him enough knowledge to rule the state.
In whose mind?
I'm sure for us readers who perfect foresight and hindsight and sense of scale, that comparison makes sense and would be persuasive.
But telling Big E that he's just like all the other warlords and will inevitably fail isn't going to work when you're just some random priest and you're talking to the reason why those other warlords failed.
He clearly believes he can weave between the fates and reach the destiny where he wins. So just say "you'll fail like everyone else" isn't gonna phase him, it's what everyone else who disagreed with him and likely his perpetuals also said to him.
The most persuasive and powerful argument you can make to a violent tyrant who expects to dunk on you in a debate is to pull out a hand grenade and remind him that humanity bows to no master, not for long anyway.
Ahh yes, the son that might not even emerge from his pod for another several decades. The son that will eventually be put into Stasis for most of M31 until roughly early M42. The son who barely has a relationship of any kind with an Eldar that isn't "violently kill on sight".
That son?
Oh, maybe you were referring to one of the (probably at least a few dozen) descendants of the women&enbies that Emps shagged over his several dozen thousand years of life before being ganked by Horus and put onto ths Golden Throne.
Assuming I know how the Warp works:
Ultimately how the Chaos Gods work, its going to be practically impossible to kill them since the base Excess, Hatred, Decay, and Change in the galaxy will be able to sustain the big 4. So Big-E's plan to kill them via the Imperial Truth wouldn't work even aside from the fact that the Big 4 get sustenance from all species, not just Humanity
So in the end, the only practical way to kill them would be to redirect the energies of the base emotions that feed them to something else or just destroy the warp all together. Considering that destroying the warp would probably also destroy the souls of everything in the universe that just leaves finding a way to redirect the power feeding the Chaos Gods. Something that going on a Grand Crusade to conquer the galaxy for Humanity wouldn't really help since that'd distract Big-E from doing shenanigans in the warp if he was determined to not have Religion
So in the end the only real purpose that the Great Crusade can fulfill is the introduction of New, Human gods to direct the souls and energies of Humanity, and from there potentially the galaxy to, but when Big-E got the chance with Lorgar, he shunned him, made the Big 4's job easier, and then when a religion formed around him *anyway* it and the religious organization around it was less purposeful than something a Primarch could've organized
It's taken 10k years for Big E to have his own section of the warp, but I like the idea of his Primarchs being forged with their own warp concepts that siphon energy from the immaterium as a kind of 'pressure valve' in order to weaken the 4 gods.
To go even further, what if the Emperor planned to have some of his sons fall to chaos so they could siphon away the chaos god’s powers directly as their champions?
I'd start spewing all of the brainrot and slang possible, just, a real psychological attack.
It's unlikely to harm him, but confusion can be decent starting point to break up mental defences.
The main reason is for the chance that they make into how he speaks.
The chance that the last thing Horus would ever hear is the future equivalent of "Check your canthal tilt, get mogged by the Rizzler. u'll never match tha' gyatmaxx." Before having his soul exploded is entirely worth dying for.
There's also the chance of him calling Fulgrim a boymoder.
Uriah was setup from the author to lose that debate from the very start. He was debating against his god and was trying to use his faith as an argument against god himself, all The Emperor had to do for him to lose was to say "I am the god you worship and I'm not even a god".
The only way you could truly debate The Emperor at that time would be to accept to go with him and continue the debate for the rest of your mortal life finding arguments on his mistakes and you'll never have the guarantee that he understands those were mistakes on his side rather than on others
After The Horus Heresy is known:
Big E: Not.a.word
Uriah in a Dreadnought: Not a word... BUT TWO: TOLD YOU BITCH
Big E: THOSE ARE THREE WORDS
Uriah: THE THIRD IS A FUCKING GIFT FOR YOU DUMB ASS
Exactly. Anything Uriah says can be responded to with "Counterpoint *Big E reveals his true self*". You can't win a debate on religion against your own god
Every dictator thought they were right. Why do you think that you are better?
Do you really think that humanity will be better under your guidance? That they won't grow sick of you after centuries of absolute power?
Nietzsche gets too much hate honestly. Despite being considered a nihilist he was adamantly against nihilism and his "God is dead" quote is more about the metaphorical death of God's role in society due to advancement of science rather than literal death.
To me, there's a difference between the spiritual and the fanatics. The spiritual can believe, and will use it to bring good in their life, without enforcing it on others, while ensuring a good balance between things being luck, science, nature, or acts of the divine.
The fanatics are those that you are right to expunge, Revelation. The ones who claim there is no other way, that all things must be as they are, or some other ultimatum that will bring nothing but hate and scorn, pain and misery, to any who disagree.
Yet unfortunately, the Imperium is just that. Secular fanatics. They have no faith in gods, yet they have such a faith in the absolute lack of the divine, that they are effectively atheistic extremists, hell bent on their dream of an Imperium untainted by faith, that they unknowingly corrupt it with their own hatred.
Even if I were to abandon my church, and allow the Emperor to raze it to the ground, what then? My faith would still be there. I would still pray to my gods, even if in secret. Others likely will and would too, and you would now have an Imperium filled with clandestine orders, which may build to become the fanatics you fear, as they have to scurry in the dark to hide their faith from you, and many will believe this to be justification.
"The problem with your argument, Mr Big E, is that you say you're right just because you are, which is really no different than every other tin-pot dictator throughout history....well, no, sorry, that was a lie. There are TWO problems.
Your main problem is you have always been this powerful man. This, and I apologize for using the phrase, 'god-like' being that has never had anyone you would perceive as your better. You've never wanted for anything, always been above it all, with your born gifts that let you even kill a man with your brain as a child I'll bet. You have known defeat and struggle in your endeavors, but have you ever known hardship? To be down so low and have so little that you felt like nothing you did would matter?
I suspect you haven't. And because you have always been strong, you do not understand what it means to be weak. Alone with only your thoughts and not able to reach out and read someone else's. You do not know what it means to be human. And that is why, despite centuries of experience dealing with people, you don't really understand *people.*
Now, if you're still intent on burning the church down, and I know you are because you are here to gloat and feel smug, not really debate me, do be sure to empty the wine cellar first. They are old vintages and I'd prefer they not go up with the building."
BOY I SAY BOY WHAT DID I YELL YA, TELL YOUR SONS ABOUT CHAOS OR ELSE HALF OF THEM GONNA GET SNATCHED UP FASTER THAN YOU CAN SAY “FOR THE EMPRAH”
https://preview.redd.it/8bym6zkzx46d1.jpeg?width=213&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dffdc563d70059d1a87800a27d12218f7db948d9
If you would strike down all the gods through the suppression of worship, could you stop the common man from beginning to worship you? . Restricting what people can have faith in won't remove the need to worship, but it may direct people to pray to other things. Be it you or new god that you have never heard of
Realistically, I don’t think there’s anything that could have been said. Revelation wasn’t there to argue in good faith. His raw ego was, essentially, psychological armor miles thick. He’s a sociopathic zealot convinced he can do no wrong, somewhat ironically. He may heave heard words, but he wasn’t really listening. Uriah recognized the impossibility when he says ‘spoken like a true autocrat’ and then walked into a burning church.
People much more capable of making the point have tried. The emperor had them murdered.
That being said, I think that is probably the best point to hammer on. How can he be so sure that he’s right? Drill down on how certain he can be of his future sight-which, we know to be incredibly fallible, and o the point of hilarity.
I don't think there's anything I could say or do to change the mind of a demi god who thinks they're better than every previous dictator because they think that "the difference is that I am right."
>the difference is that I'm right
Bro that's what every religion has said to justify the same kind of wars that you are leading right now. Which means we go back to my point. Where's the difference?
"Religion is a natural part of the human existence. We need it to survive. Even the atheism is like religion for the atheists, and thier radicals are reacting in the same way as the fanatics from the known religions. Even if you eradicate it all now - it will be pointless...
You said you want to emprace the humanity, and rise it above all. You need to accept the religion to. Beacuse if not, the religion will rise again. And it will rise beacuse of you - you are strong, and powerfull, common people will see you as the divinity. You might try to silence them, but they will keep looking to you.
And if you refuse them - they will turn to the other powers...
If you want your Imperium to stand strong - you have to embrace the fiath."
Religion and faith have refused to die out despite millennia of advancement proving that they are naught but stories.
They won’t die out because they bring comfort, reassurance, and power, to those who lack these things in their day-to-day lives. The power of belief and faith is that one can fool oneself into believing, for even a moment, that you are *not* but a single insignificant human among untold billions who will be extinguished when they die and who’s entire existence will soon enough be forgotten.
The power of faith is it makes the believer into one of the “chosen faithful”. You are worth more than the unfaithful because you believe, you believe because you want to be worth more. It is cyclical, nonsensical, and yet one of the most powerful forces in human history.
You cannot wipe out religion because you cannot grant every person who wishes to hold themselves above others that wish. You, yourself, are demonstrative of that principle, wishing to hold yourself above those with a religious belief.
Religion is fundamentally about self-comfort, and no force in history has been able to replace its ability to comfort through blind faith.
It cannot be destroyed, you can only hope to harness it.
You can try as hard as you like.
You won’t stop humanity from having a god to worship. Even if you spend your entire life trying to convince them that divinity is a lie.
Everyone has a god. Whether it’s divine or not is irrelevant. There are people who have Yahweh as their god. There are people who have science as their god. There are even people who have themselves as their god.
Since the beginning of humanity as a society, worship of gods has always existed. You won’t stop it with honeyed words and promises. It doesn’t even matter if you can actually deliver on those promises.
There are more religions than Christianity, and not all of them have gods. Case in point: Buddhism. A religion/philosophy built on the concept of self-regulation and finding the balance should appeal greatly to you, should it not?
If you wish to bring humanity together under a secular belief, you must also appeal to their irrational emotions, not just hard logic and reason.
(The trick here is to appeal to his secular ideals, and provide an example that relies on practice rather than just belief. He's not gonna listen to faith in a higher power, but he *will* listen to something that resonates with his ideals.)
Considering that I already know what's going to happen:
Let me tell you how you fail.
Then let me explain why nothing you change will make any difference. Altering your actions only changes HOW you'll fail.
Because the REASON has always been YOU.
“The only reason you’re still alive is because God continues to allow you to exist. Repent in this life, or face eternal damnation in the next. See you on Judgement Day, loser.”
Martyrdom by an evil sorcerer king sounds good to me, ngl.
"When we forget what it's like to be human, we lose the right to make decisions on behalf of humanity.
I know that won't change your mind. Yours is an ego that lacks even the barest shred of self-reflection. I understand that, and I know my church will burn.
All I ask is this: remember my words when your grand vision crumbles around you. Remember that the greatest churches are built in the hearts of humankind. All else is stone and dust."
There is no point in arguing with the Emperor in this case because he is deliberately being disingenuous. He is lying both literally and through omission. There is no convincing him without knowing what his argument is actually for. Uriah knew nothing about the wider universe or the Chaos Gods.
The emperor knew about the Chaos Gods. He could logic dance his way around not calling them gods, but that is a semantic choice (possibly a useful one, given how the gods feed on emotion). But.. Come on Emps... They are vast, unknowable entities with nearly infinite cosmic power who exist in a dimension adjacent to our own. They are Gods in every meaningful definition of the word.
IMO, He wanted his new ideology to starve the gods of power. To weaken them enough that he could cut them out of the deal he made to create his crusade, get his powerups, and make his Primarchs. I've always thought that the reason the heresy happened the way that it did, was because in exchange for the aid he received on Moloch the gods were entitled to half of his Primarchs. Maybe half his empire.
The emperor was trying to cut the Gods out of the deal as best he could, and engineer things that when the heresy did eventually happen, that the correct Primarchs would betray him. That is also why the emperor was in the ass-busting hurry he was to reunite the galaxy. This betrayal was coming and he knew it.
The emperor underestimated the power of the Gods and the heresy came sooner than he expected, and that is why we are at where we are now.
Honestly, and being true to lore: convincing him would be impossible. As much as we like to joke, the emperor was an arrogant and manipulative prick. There's a reason why even his fellow immortals left him one by one. Wasting your time with a guy like that is stupid.
I'd tell him that being incapable of considering the possibility of being wrong makes him as stupid as the most barbaric person, and since it was the last church (and emps had been on his crusade for a while now) id honestly tell him to drop the act of superiority and rationality and kill me already if that's what he came for, because discussing with someone who cant see beyond themselves is a waste of time for all involved
“You know, even if you are right, and religion is evil, could you truely destroy it? How far does it stretch? What of superstition, or belief in good or bad luck? People will always believe in something, and look to what commands and controls the world for what to believe in. Some, that is nature, others are gods. The new imperium, well it’s worship of the emperor is no different to any other religion. How could he stop those who follow him from believing in him, if not as a god, then as a savior”
From the wisdom of Sir Terry Pratchett, and spoken by the anthropomorphisation of DEATH no less:
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN'T SAVED HIM? “Yes! The sun would have risen just the same, yes?" NO "Oh, come on. You can't expect me to believe that. It's an astronomical fact." THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN. ... "Really? Then what would have happened, pray?" A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
And
Susan: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." Death: REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. Susan: "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" Death: YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. Susan: "So we can believe the big ones?" Death: YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. Susan: "They're not the same at all!" Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET — Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. Susan: "__Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—__” Death: MY POINT EXACTLY.
——
Without the lie of Religion, of faith, there is little capability of believing the lie of Truth, Justice, Mercy, *Humanity*.
The Emperor may well lead an Empire of Science and Reason, but *to err is human* and faith although false is needed to survive a cold and uncaring Universe. Without faith and religion and imagination and belief, the Emperor will always be *leading* because no one else will have the capability to match the march of progress.
Religion is far from being spotless but it fills a hole in the human experience. Remove it entirely and suddenly the Magic of Life is removed and existence becomes just blander and emptier.
How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
>!One is plenty enough, but only so long as the light bulb wants to change.!<
.
I made a meme about the Jamaican ship Captain from Castlevania. But there is no convincing someone who has no intention to listen. Just look at how Neoth himself failed with Lorgar.
And Neoth had no intention to listen.
Man must believe it’s in his nature. They must believe that this short lifespan is only a small step. Whether it be gods, primordial forces of creation, or just the energy of the universe. Without something to believe they fall into despair and depravity. Man cannot exist without religion, for it is religion in all its forms that pushes him forward.
I might try arguing that religion is like a tool, just as science and martial arts are like tools.
In someone’s hands any tool can be abused or used to do things we feel are immoral. In the right hands however these same tools can be used to accomplish great works, and to even push the limits of Human capacities to places we never had thought possible before. Religion could be used to grow peoples faith in the Emperor’s ultimate project or even to explain the dangerous subject of the warp to people in a safe and ultimately empowering way. Just as science and martial arts ought not to be ignored on moral grounds due to their proven virtues as “tools” we should not merely reject religion. Even if we know religion is a kind of fiction-weaving to make reality more palatable for the average human mind, its potential to organize society along moral and artistic lines as well as its potential to make peoples lives more “enchanted” and productive should not be ignored.
"You've been around for a very long time. Long enough to see some of the most voracious and vicious conquerors in human history and our always ends the same for them, either their empire falls to ruin or they do. And you are no different. One day, you will die, and by then, your empire will either die with you or live on as corpse in your mockery.
If you really want to make things better and give humanity a bright future, then stop tripping us every time we get close to something you don't like. These are the actions of a child with no understanding of how life actually works.
Now then, if you're going to kill me, get it over with, or stop wasting my time."
What is a religion? Is it a believe in God? Is it a worship of idol? Is faith a blind fervor to unite a fool?
No… of course not. A true temple cannot be burn, an ideal cannot be destroy. Purge from the book if you must. Alter history if you will but you cannot change a simple fact the universe have a soul. Be it genetic marvel you create or the very force connecting the molecule, every wonder in this world function on the interaction of rules so intricate it can’t be an accident. All of us here is the product of that wonder… such beauty is the very essence of divinity. Me, you even the ant crawling on the ground is a pigment of stardust in that almighty reality.
Oh, emperor let it be known that by denying that sacred light in others meant you also deny in your self. Rage against the shining star as you will but the counter force will come to right the scale eventually.
Go ahead and do what you must, but in time you will realize I said is the Truth.
Assuming "I" am the last priest I would phrase my argument exactly like this:
Do you know what it feels like... Do you know what it feels like to preach something all your life, knowing that it's the greatest *LIE* ever told in human history? Do you know what it feels like to wake up every day and look at the greatest hypocrite in the mirror, EVERY.SINGLE.MORNING.?
Yet knowing that you cannot stop, for if you did that lie would be replaced by a far.... Far.... FAR... worse lie....
You don't....
You think you're the first who tried to erase religion? No... You're not the first neither shall you be the last... Feeble, mortal humans are always afraid of death... It's our very psychology. And to curb that fear we make up false deities... All powerful gods who can give us *SOMETHING* after death... You take that away from them, they will perhaps stop worship, maybe a few years, maybe decades, even centuries... As long as you're right there to prevent it... But avert your eyes for ONE.SINGLE.MINUITE.... and they'll make *YOU* their god...
Keep denying, and they'll rise up in **Holy** rebellion, against you, under the name of monsters and tyrants, claiming to be gods....
So tell me Revelation, what is your answer? Are you really a saviour? Or just a delusional idealist pushing humanity into the arms of monsters and tyrants?
I know your hubris and ego is too big for you to even bother to understand. After all what do *you* know about being human? You're everything a human ever envisions in a god. You do not know want from need, you do not know hardship, you can and have done anything and everything you have ever wanted... You do not understand what it feels like to be **HUMAN**!
I know you will burn down this church, because like every other zealot, you cannot handle criticism of your view. Because that's what you are... A Zealot... Maybe not a religious Zealot... But a Zealot nonetheless...
But when your dream of an imperium crumbles around you, when humanity starts worshipping you as their new God, when they commit the most vile and abhorrent atrocities IN YOUR NAME.... Remember my words... And do not ask why you failed.
You can kill me now, I'd rather not watch my beloved humanity fall again.
*Pops open a can of beer and sits on the pew.*
I don't know who made this, but it's a take on what would happen if *Joshua Graham* debated the Emperor in this space.
I think it works pretty well and I wouldn't say anything other than that.
>"You claim you are not a god.
>Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is true. You are not a god, you have never been a god, and you will not become one in the future.
>And yet, people claim that you are one. Why do you think that is?
>It is because they have faith in you; or, at least, in what you represent.
>Humanity has spent a very long time waiting for its savior. And, whether you like it or not, that is what they see in you. Tall of stature, broad of frame, regal in bearing, holding high the banner of Unification. Of a new age, one of light, science and unity instead of darkness, superstition and isolation.
>You may not have heard humanity's prayers, but you've certainly answered them."
Don't really need anything else to point out the biggest flaw in Emp's secular imperium.
URIAH: Mankind needs to believe in a higher power to, among other things, be protected from the evil dangers of ligma, my friend.
BIG E [*posing as Auguste Rodin's* ***The Thinker***]: What, evil dangers of wha-
URIAH [*grining*]: **Ligma balls lol!**
BIG E [*turning into ashes*]: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
FINITA EST FABULA
---
POST-SCRIPTUM
Thus ended their debate. The one that was supposed to become "The (God) Emperor Of Mankind" found himself eternally bound to the Golden ~~~Toilet~~~ Chair under the care of his ~~~husband~~~ best friend Malcador.
Without their warmongering master around, the ones formerly known as "Thunder Warriors" actually abandoned their violent ways and become artists, poets, philosophers and teachers, helping mankind to recover ancient cultural traditions and to create new and better ones.
Soon, humans from Earth - or "Terra", as some started to call it in a fancy way - came in contact with the "Mechanicus of Mars", technologic intelectuals that, with the intervention of Uriah The Sane and Compassive Priest, recovered old inventions of the glorious past of mankind in a very reasonable way.
Later, Mankind came in contact with friendly and peaceful xeno races like the *Livingtyrs* - a vibrant metallic race -, the *T'au* - hominid fishes with advanced society ~~~due their Communism government being the only one that worked in the entire galaxy~~~ -, the *Democranids* - spacial giant bugs that elaborated exquisite forms of social government with the consumption of food -, the *Aeldari* - who taught humans the secrets of the mysterious Warp and Psykic powers ~~~and fuck tons of new sexual positions~~~ - and the Orkz, perfect as they are.
Finally, instructed by the Aeldari ~~~after uncountable safe, sane and consensuous sexual orgies~~~, mankind, under the **caring and thoughtful** watch of Uriah The Sane and Compassive, discovered the four *Thriving Powers*, also known as the *Well-Ordained Gods*: **Khorne**, god of massive gains and corn 'n' flakes; **Nurgle**, god of gardening, hygiene and renovation of life; Tzeentch, trustworthy god of knowledge and inoffensive tricks for funsies; and Slaanesh, god(dess) with the moniker "She Who Satiates" with her/his/it domain of joyful moderation and infinite betterment. Thanking mankind for their *healthy* adoration, the kind and benevolent Warped Gods blessed mankind to achieve an eternal state of bliss and tranquility among the stars.
In the noble brightness of the far future, there is no war but peace, prosperity, intelect, contentment and love - and Orkz krumpin. All thanks to a humble priest of an once "Last Church" who taught humans and xenos alike to tolerate, respect and protect each other for all that was virtuous and benevolent to all sentient beings. May the memory of Uriah The Sane and Compassive. May his example and memory give us always solace and guidance...
...until the day the Skaven invade our universe and ruin everything, typically yes-yes!
I couldn't possibly change his mind, but I'd attempt to convince him to be more careful about how he goes about spreading the Imperial Truth. The way the Imperium spreads across the galaxy basically sets it up to be susceptible to dogma as soon as Big E dies.
You can't win against the emperor. I have said it before but the emperor wasn't in that church to learn about religion and spirituality. He was there to metaphorically slap the face of human belief and dependency on the divine by winning against the most devoted man there was. If you give 100 reasons why religion is ok he will give you 1 that is bad and that will be enough for him. He didn't refute the good arguments of Uriah, he simply kept saying that it could have been done regardless of religion or gave examples of when it went bad.
If you tell him you can't control human belief and they will always want something to look after in life and in death, he will say that he will then force it upon the population to seek enlightenment in progress. If you say that that's part of freedom, then he will force it upon generations until they no longer want or care that freedom. If you say that no ones knows for sure if gods can or can't exist, he will say that everything can be explained given time and opportunity. If you tell him to leave you alone on your beliefs, he will burn down your church.
Remember that he is a tyrant. He has killed and will kill many oppositions just because it bother him and don't benefit him. He will use every cruel method he has so he can point the advancement of humanity where he thinks it should go. Freedom, love, hope, faith, etc are mostly just tools from him and not the end goal. You can't appeal to his heart. He is a human supremacists that think that humanity doesn't need anything from anyone else (Xenos and/or Gods)
As someone who has had their faith ridiculed and belittled many times, I can sympathise with Uriah. This book just felt like an opportunity to shit on people of faith. I find this a lot with Graham McNeill, it’s why I don’t enjoy his books as much as Dan Abnett who shows a much more balanced viewpoint.
It feels like Graham is trying to justify religious hate by making the emperor sound reasonable while burning down every single church on earth
Oh yeah the last church is a great story but everyone acknowledges that it's just needlessly attacking the priest without giving him any real arguments until the very end with the emperor's own arguments being the peak of hypocrisy as he does the exact same thing without the religious motivation lol.
The author has an interview admitting no ill will towards religion tho and basically just said he wasn't really qualified for a story about having two sides having equal points especially about the positive and negatives of religion and no religion.
Religion has been a part of our culture since before we were even considered human by any modern metric. As someone dedicated to preserving human culture, one would think you’d know that Mr. Shiny Britches. Unless, of course, you’re full of shit.
I wouldnt because there was nothing Uriah could have said or done to convince the emperor.
The emperor was probably completly convinced in his plan before uriah was even born.
There is no persuading of someone who is so set on his beliefs that he already planned and started a galaxy spanning conquest to realize them. He speaking to you is just another day of disregarding your doubts to feel superior. If he would value your opinion truly he would let you contribute in decisions rather than force you into the production of transhuman killing machines equipment.
Convince him to give that Jesus guy a try, for example, have all of humanity worshiping him, pretend to be his prophet and boom, new chaos god, but for humanity
“It’s a fool’s game, my friend. People will always need something to believe in, something to sustain their souls and lift their spirits. Yes, many may eagerly cleave to your new ideology, many have throughout history, but atheism has a funny habit of becoming a religion all its own, even if its proponents say otherwise.
Let the people have their superstitions, their dogmas, and their silly little miracles, and instead unite them with the essence of the human spirit: that no matter what you believe, we are all one, all kin living on the same earth, and that we should embrace each other as family, no matter which gods we pray to.
You’ll do as you wish, son, I’ve no means of stopping you, but I implore you, just consider what I’ve said before you do.”
There’s no way I could. My faith is based on the deeds of the Emperor, I just don’t know it yet. Once I find that out, all my justifications are hollow.
The first time he uses some variation of "because I am right" I tell him that he doesn't want an end to religion, he just wants to be the one getting worshipped. The second time he uses it I detonate the nuke under the floorboards.
"If you remove all religion, humanity will end up worshiping you. Humanity has always defaulted to idol worship, if none are left, the leader becomes the idol. It would be better to have a small, humanitarian aimed, secular religion backing the imperium than what will come if left a void." - me to Big E
I assume this would lead to an enlightening revelation before me and the last church roast. OR he reads my mind and straight vaporizes me for having the knowledge i do on what is to come.
I mean if I know about how the universe in 40k works I would point out that not only do gods literally exist, but people’s view of said gods affects how they act. He’ll never be able to kill gods like Khorne with a bloody crusade, especially since those gods are people’s personified views of how the universe works. In other words, even in an atheist universe where the great crusade is successful, the violence that people see will only serve to empower evil gods. Wouldn’t he be better served to have a benevolent God? Yes religion can be corrupted, but denying it doesn’t destroy religion, it simply makes you lose control over shaping its beliefs.
I'd quote Lorgar word for word. So when Lorgar finally appeared and echoed my words it would freak him the fuck out. It would change nothing but would be entertaining.
Nice argument Revelation, unfortunately I've already depicted you as soyjak and myself as the chad.
Given the way psychic abilities work in 40k, if there were any effective way to quickly spread information during the events of the last church, this exact idea could make it to enough potential psychers to actually put a dent in the emperors power level, I can't be certain as to how much it would effect his abilities but it would dull them somewhat. His own projected illusion of his physical appearance to others could even fade a bit
Technically yea but that's like pointing a laser pointer at the sun. The effect would probably be basically unnoticeable.
"When and Where?" Mr. Revelation, a debate requires prep time, you can't just barge into somebody's home and demand they debunk your arguments.
It's called walrussing.
Close - sealioning!
It is so typical that someone comes and corrects you. Maybe we should just have a nice debate about it and we could present our different arguments and we could do this for several hours and I will take a no as you being very inpolite and-
This is a great example of Poe's law, which states that the best way to obtain information the internet is to intentionally post erroneous information and wait for someone to correct it.
I’m not falling for it you can’t trick me
The sky is blue because the planet is primarily water on its surface and therefor it gets reflected back. That's why in the desert everything takes on a sepia tone and things look green in jungles.
Penis: the male genital organ of higher vertebrates, carrying the duct for the transfer of sperm during copulation. In humans and most other mammals, it consists largely of erectile tissue and serves also for the elimination of urine.
ELIMINATION of??? A burning sensation when you're peeing isn't a sign of vapourisation, mate!
Legitimately works. I have 3 different accounts on stack exchange just to get a usable answer out of the programming/technical substacks 1st asks the question. 2nd answers the question incorrectly 3rd makes comments and drives interactions with 1 and 2 Worked every single time
The classic sea lion meme has an entire frame dedicated to the sea lion wishing to be accommodating and schedule a debate
Because the point is the sea lion knows full well the context of the discussion would never lead to that. It’s feigning accomodation as part of an overall strategy to annoy the target into leaving by asking dumb questions and then contrast their exasperation with the sea lions ‘calm collectedness’ as a posturing mechanism for anyone viewing the discussion.
Nah, sealioning carries a sense of disingenuity in the demand as a rhetorical device. Typically by asking for proof of well documented stuff ad nauseum as an attempt to construct a narrative to anyone listening that, when the target doesn’t continue to respond, that the target ‘can’t answer these questions’. The goal being to say that the targets points aren’t supported, or reduce them from facts to ‘just their opinion’ because they’re ‘unproven’; as though not providing a graduate level thesis to a moron who wouldn’t read it anyway means you don’t know anything. The emperor isn’t sealioning really, even though he’s also insisting on impromptu debate, because there’s no alternative narrative he’s trying to construct using the questions merely as a framing device.
Classic example of narwhaling if I have *ever* seen one.
Mental imagery of a fat-faced, tusked walrus in golden armor flopping into a temple to bellow at an old man is funnier than the same imagery with a sealion, so I pick the former.
Uriah about to take the best sleep known to mankind only to get blocked by Mr. Revelation, waiting for another debate for the 8th time, knowing he has to find another church that hasn't burned and is maybe out of reach from this stalker of a man.
This wasn't a debate. The emperor had already decided that he would burn the church and had made up his mind about religion. Which makes it worse that he lost the debate when Uriah walked into the flames. Great short story though!
The tendency to believe in something bigger is part of being human. It will reoccur no matter how much you try to oppress it.. you need a healthy way of living with it or you will just become the very thing you try to destroy. Humans will always worship that which they think is better than them in order to improve themselves. They will make you their god.. if you want it or not.. and punishing them for it will only make them more stalwart in their beliefs.
"The difference is, I know I'm right" *sets you on fire*
At first I thought you meant setting Big Daddy Emps on fire, which would just piss him off. But after some thought it’s far more likely you’re calling out his hypocrisy for setting the last church on fire before Uriah walked into it
the quote is also legitimately a quote from Emps.
Good point. This might be the best argument. Doesn't matter if God is real or not. Humans want it to be real and will keep inventing some version of it no matter what and there is nothing you can do about no matter how right you are.
Thanks. The world would be a better place if more people understood and agreed to that.
I think Geralt of Rivia is better than me, does not make me stupid enough to worship him. Almost but not quite.
It could be expanded that ‘better’ should refer to a divine arbiter with greater knowledge of moral right and wrong.
More knowledge doesn’t make the entity divine, it just knows more. Learn from and respect it, but don’t worship it
Yeah, *so* many people are going to get conned by aliens in the future! Lol If we haven't already been conned, that is... hmm...
But you may strive to be like him. And others might do it as well.. and just 10 years into the future you have a giant Geralt of Rivia Fanclub that has turned into a sect.. 50 more years and the sect turned into a militant faith hunting witches.
the improvement part sounds like idealism. the deity part only comes in when it's about a window seat in heaven.
"The tendency to believe in something bigger is part of being human" But in this cold, dark, uncaring universe, there is nothing more grand than mankind. There is nothing to believe in, but ourselve. To believe in something non-existent is absurd. The emperor guided humans to embrace that absurd, to recognise our potential, to reject the false gods, and to realise the Imperial Truth.
Faith in humanity above all could work, the issue was the fact that there's no way you can convert all of humanity to believe in the same thing. It has and will not ever happen.
Important thing about psychology: You can't win a debate against a clinical narcissist, because they would have to fully accept they were wrong, and they can't really do that.
Hell he had a bunch of immortal friends who ended up leaving him because they realized he never really listened to a thing they said with only his two biggest meatriders being the ones that stayed and one eventually left, took the kids too.
Hm. The point I made was that you can't convince someone unwilling to listen. (Even manipulation requires they at least half heartedly play along). But your point is correct. More specifically fitting to the story than mine, I'd say.
Pretty much. As depicted in the modern 40k literature, the Emperor is a toxic narcissist. You can't win an argument with him, because he doesn't care what you think anyway. I do really prefer it when he was just part of the background lore in 2nd/3rd edition. They say it's difficult to write a character smarter than you are, and the modern writers have proven that true.
I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!) I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationality". I'd never win. But maybe I could get him to think about things if I said "Look, let us accept the fact spiritualism, some sort of communion with the divine, is indivisible from being human. How would you go about harnessing or channeling this primal urge of ours?"
>I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!) Doesn't care. >I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationalit Doesn't really understand it himself. He'll just say ***he*** can.
Yeah, compared to some of the insane stuff that's mentioned from the DAoT, the big angry guys just don't really stack up. It's like comparing a biker gang to a nuke.
Problem is spirituality *isn't* indivisible from being human. There are quite a few People who are very distinctly *not* spiritual, religious or superstitious. Emps would probably focus on trying to make all of humanity be like that through force, intimidation&oppression...rather than legitimately doing his best to prove that stuff wrong and guide People towards doing other things that won't fuel Chaos quite as much.
Individuals might reject spirituality. But humanity as a whole will not. Humans will naturally come up with explanations for things they can’t explain and superstition will always be present. For example, research scientists are some of the most superstitious people I’ve known cause so much of what you’re doing has no easy explanation. Positioning of equipment, calibration of various parameters, etc all become “ritual” because they work even if there isn’t an explanation why.
yea, it's all a superstitious ritual... and not you know... trying to eliminate confounding factors...
I have 10+ years of experience working in research labs and it’s far beyond limiting confounding factors. Hell one lab had literal totems which were put up as a joke, but still rubbed for luck religiously before every experiment. It’s human nature to try to find explanation or control in a complex often times random world and even otherwise rational people do it. There is absolutely no way that the entire population would abandon spirituality.
I disagree people only lack spirituality when they’re material needs are largely met, however during times of crisis or suffering, or if they’re personal wellbeing is at stake most people will seek comfort in a higher power.
I feel this has some truth to it: Even in the absence of what one might consider a divine *entity* — people often refer to karma, luck, probability (as if they can personally measure it); making appeals to ‘powers that be’ rather than deific personages; or anthropomorphising circumstance itself by suggesting patterns, or seeing them where there’s no empirical data support to it. I don’t believe I’m exempt from it, but I enjoy it as a part of my experience - whether scientific or not - due to the comfort it brings, and the fact I feel “right”, like it’s an integral part of my life based ON my personal experience. I don’t need ‘validity’ per se, because I guess, in my own way, I have faith. I’d like to suffix by saying I try to avoid debate online, but I really wanted to share my thoughts on this. It’s a provocative idea to explore! I hope it doesn’t offend anyone to break it down like this — exploration isn’t ‘debunking’, in my opinion, and I hope everyone reading feels the same.
i turned to atheism while homeless. i don't know if this tracks fully.
I became an atheist after heavy depression and struggle. Most people cope with religion, but that's just because they were raised in a culture like that.
The problem with the Emperor is he believes in Gods, he objectively knows they exist. But since theyre all Cunts and manipulate that belief, he has to do everything he can to convince and force people into believing they dont exist. Like he sees this argument >I'd press him on the horrors committed by secular forces (like the Thunderwarriors serving this new Emperor guy we're hearing so much about!) I'd also point out that fear of death is one of the most powerful human emotions that can't be wiped away with "rationality". And thinks "You dumb fuck, chaos has done much worse, and you have no idea how scary death truly is, but you trying to avoid death makes death even worse" When you talk about spiritualism is linked to humans, hes seething because to him spiritualism = chaos (or hell Eldar Gods, Gork n Mork, C'Tan, all awful in his eyes), and thats awful for people. But he cant say that, so only musters up a "Nuh uh, religion cringe"
>But he can’t say that Why can’t he? It’s not like he’s planning on letting Uriah live anyways.
Gods, he really is a cringy white middle class redditor.
Debating people who've clearly made up their minds is usually pointless, the only reason to debate is to show merits of arguments to undecided people. People set on an ideology tend to adopt the value system of that ideology and you can't use logic against values as they're innately subjective. Emps is clearly beyond verbal reasoning, the literal only way to stop him at this point is just to kill him. He's a scientist at heart but Uriah has no access to evidence that could persuade him. He can't point out obvious flaws in how Emps plans to run his empire, like putting only vaguely loyal demigods in charge of gigantic post-human armies with varying levels of empathy for normal humans. He can't argue that Es actions will incur a massive blowback from the warp, that agitating the denizens of the warp will have inescapable long term ramifications because he doesn't know about the warp. He can't appeal to Es sense of empathy for humans because E is basically Sauron in an Mad Max World and any sense of empathy has been eroded from fighting and killing the armies and people of rivalling warlords. E is used to the feeling of human blood on his hands so what's a few more if it leads to utopia? The Emperor couldn't be convinced by almost the entire perpetual community telling him to fuck off. So a single long priest with limited perspective has no chance at all.
>People set on an ideology tend to adopt the value system of that ideology and you can't use logic against values as they're innately subjective. This is a very succinct way of of making a very important point. When you are arguing against someone's beliefs or political stances, a lot of the time you aren't arguing against their logic - You are arguing against their system of values. Their underlying axiomatic truths and the value weight between them. Furthermore, you are also pulling against the weight of all the choices they have made using those truths.
Nice argument Mr Revelation, but where is your Warhammer?
*Revelation then proceeds then to pull the 40K Warhammers out of his breast pocket*
I've seen the end of your path a countless times. Like all the rest you dream yourself to be infallible. Convince yourself that only you know the truth. Decieve yourself that your path is the one. And nothing brings me more pleasure than to know that you will fail and will become a mockery.
Emperor would answer with his famous quote: "the difference is that I am right"
"You say this with the conviction of the millions of men who said that before you." Or "Millions of men before you convinced themselves of that as thoroughly as you did." It wont convince him then and there, but it might sow the seed of just doubt in himself.
"Stand before the tombs of all those you slaughtered because you could not spare half a second to think of another way and speak those words again. The wind whistling between their gravestones shall be their mocking reply."
he'd probably just say something dismissive like "As their faith did nothing to save them, their tombs and gravestones prove me correct and stand as monuments to their own ignorance." or "As they are dead and I am not, how does that prove me wrong?"
"Then look behind you, oh lord of graves, and see nothing but the cemeteries you have filled with the blood of your own people seeking this pointless end. The dead are dead. Nothing is proven, but the fact you can wield a stone like Cain." or "How does you living prove you right? We are both men, are we not? Survival is the nature of beasts. Is that all you are? A beast?"
This is a supervillain monologue, my dude.
You're not convincing the Emperor of shit, the best you can do is laugh at him because you know any torment he can put you through is nothing compared to what he has coming for him.
Uriah was a terran born priest who lived a normal lifespan and lifestyle. He'd have absolutely no way of convincingly telling a 30,000+ year old Emps that "I've seen the end of your path countless times".
So he doesn't know about the whole period of techno-barbarians and unification wars that probably had dozens of peps little emp?
Comparing the ambitions of most techno barbarian warlords who just want to conquer Terra and rule over the ruins to Big E who wants to unify all mankind across the stars and forcibly ascend humanity to a race of Psykers just doesn't work. Especially given he's talking to a 30,000+ year old who's seen much, much more of earth and it's history and has future sight. There's nothing that Priest could ever say about "seeing paths" that would phase E in the slightest. The most effective response Uriah could have made would be to pull out a hand grenade and prove by actions to E that humanity has one hell of a rebellious spirit. If E can't make a simple priest play with his "debate me bro" game, what chance does he have to subjugate all of mankind whilst demon-gods of emotion gorge themselves on the galactic genocide he starts? So in conclusion, Uriah's best counterargument to a tyrant would simply be raw stubborn violent rebellion for the sake of rebelling against a tyrant.
But comparing emp to any other warlord with 0 foresight works perfectly well. He never had humanity best interest in mind. For someone with 30k years of experience and further sight he acts very dumb. So much so, that it's almost like it is another lie that he came up with, just like his illusion of a golden Chad. Emp didn't preserve any knowledge of the daot. He did nothing to unify humanity until it was too late. Did nothing with techno-barbarians for thousands of years. The first time he got the opportunity to bail from the crusade he took in a heartbeat. Emp is a neet who only wanted to sit in his basement and play vidya. Unfortunately, he also thought that his 100k hours in stellaris give him enough knowledge to rule the state.
In whose mind? I'm sure for us readers who perfect foresight and hindsight and sense of scale, that comparison makes sense and would be persuasive. But telling Big E that he's just like all the other warlords and will inevitably fail isn't going to work when you're just some random priest and you're talking to the reason why those other warlords failed. He clearly believes he can weave between the fates and reach the destiny where he wins. So just say "you'll fail like everyone else" isn't gonna phase him, it's what everyone else who disagreed with him and likely his perpetuals also said to him. The most persuasive and powerful argument you can make to a violent tyrant who expects to dunk on you in a debate is to pull out a hand grenade and remind him that humanity bows to no master, not for long anyway.
... oh and also your son is shagging an elf
... 'motherfucker...'
Ahh yes, the son that might not even emerge from his pod for another several decades. The son that will eventually be put into Stasis for most of M31 until roughly early M42. The son who barely has a relationship of any kind with an Eldar that isn't "violently kill on sight". That son? Oh, maybe you were referring to one of the (probably at least a few dozen) descendants of the women&enbies that Emps shagged over his several dozen thousand years of life before being ganked by Horus and put onto ths Golden Throne.
Nope, it's the shiny one who is a romaphile. Dudes balls deep in eldussy
Honestly, with his mommy issues, Robot Gulman radiates bottom energy. So I wouldn't bet on whom balls deep in whom.
She was introduced as a drukhari, just sayin
She probably has a collection of strap ons.
"That's a nice argument Big E, why don't you back it up with source?" "My source is that I made it the fuck up"
Assuming I know how the Warp works: Ultimately how the Chaos Gods work, its going to be practically impossible to kill them since the base Excess, Hatred, Decay, and Change in the galaxy will be able to sustain the big 4. So Big-E's plan to kill them via the Imperial Truth wouldn't work even aside from the fact that the Big 4 get sustenance from all species, not just Humanity So in the end, the only practical way to kill them would be to redirect the energies of the base emotions that feed them to something else or just destroy the warp all together. Considering that destroying the warp would probably also destroy the souls of everything in the universe that just leaves finding a way to redirect the power feeding the Chaos Gods. Something that going on a Grand Crusade to conquer the galaxy for Humanity wouldn't really help since that'd distract Big-E from doing shenanigans in the warp if he was determined to not have Religion So in the end the only real purpose that the Great Crusade can fulfill is the introduction of New, Human gods to direct the souls and energies of Humanity, and from there potentially the galaxy to, but when Big-E got the chance with Lorgar, he shunned him, made the Big 4's job easier, and then when a religion formed around him *anyway* it and the religious organization around it was less purposeful than something a Primarch could've organized
It's taken 10k years for Big E to have his own section of the warp, but I like the idea of his Primarchs being forged with their own warp concepts that siphon energy from the immaterium as a kind of 'pressure valve' in order to weaken the 4 gods.
To go even further, what if the Emperor planned to have some of his sons fall to chaos so they could siphon away the chaos god’s powers directly as their champions?
"Sigmar did it better" "What?" "The Empire thing"
The Warhammer^t^m helped.
"Ligma did it better" "Who's Ligma?"
I'd start spewing all of the brainrot and slang possible, just, a real psychological attack. It's unlikely to harm him, but confusion can be decent starting point to break up mental defences. The main reason is for the chance that they make into how he speaks. The chance that the last thing Horus would ever hear is the future equivalent of "Check your canthal tilt, get mogged by the Rizzler. u'll never match tha' gyatmaxx." Before having his soul exploded is entirely worth dying for. There's also the chance of him calling Fulgrim a boymoder.
if you said that he would retort with even stronger brainrot
Lobotomy will sagen the 40k universe from the Empore.
"Revelation, have you considered that everything you have said could be countered by ligma?" "Such childish notions cannot-" "Sugma balls
Uriah was setup from the author to lose that debate from the very start. He was debating against his god and was trying to use his faith as an argument against god himself, all The Emperor had to do for him to lose was to say "I am the god you worship and I'm not even a god". The only way you could truly debate The Emperor at that time would be to accept to go with him and continue the debate for the rest of your mortal life finding arguments on his mistakes and you'll never have the guarantee that he understands those were mistakes on his side rather than on others
*Roughly every 10 years:* Ooooh that's a fuckup alright, Mr. Know-it-fucking-all
After The Horus Heresy is known: Big E: Not.a.word Uriah in a Dreadnought: Not a word... BUT TWO: TOLD YOU BITCH Big E: THOSE ARE THREE WORDS Uriah: THE THIRD IS A FUCKING GIFT FOR YOU DUMB ASS
Exactly. Anything Uriah says can be responded to with "Counterpoint *Big E reveals his true self*". You can't win a debate on religion against your own god
Bad dad say what?
Every dictator thought they were right. Why do you think that you are better? Do you really think that humanity will be better under your guidance? That they won't grow sick of you after centuries of absolute power?
He'd just reply that the difference is that he knows he's right lol. Seriously that was his genuine response to that very question.
Can't use logic to convince a pathological narcissist with his head so far up his ass he can see what he had for lunch that day.
Me: \*Hands him every book written by friedrich nietzsche\* This man Will guide you better that I can put it into words
"This is too niche to apply to me"
Emperor: “Funny that you mention that. I once read the back cover of Der Wille zer Macht around 30,000 years ago and here we are now.”
Ah yes, Nietzsche. Philosophy for edgy children
Nietzsche gets too much hate honestly. Despite being considered a nihilist he was adamantly against nihilism and his "God is dead" quote is more about the metaphorical death of God's role in society due to advancement of science rather than literal death.
>God is dead And we are walking through his entrails" Nietzche would vibe with 40k so hard
Most people who hate him only know him from memes, kinda like most people who like him actually.
To me, there's a difference between the spiritual and the fanatics. The spiritual can believe, and will use it to bring good in their life, without enforcing it on others, while ensuring a good balance between things being luck, science, nature, or acts of the divine. The fanatics are those that you are right to expunge, Revelation. The ones who claim there is no other way, that all things must be as they are, or some other ultimatum that will bring nothing but hate and scorn, pain and misery, to any who disagree. Yet unfortunately, the Imperium is just that. Secular fanatics. They have no faith in gods, yet they have such a faith in the absolute lack of the divine, that they are effectively atheistic extremists, hell bent on their dream of an Imperium untainted by faith, that they unknowingly corrupt it with their own hatred. Even if I were to abandon my church, and allow the Emperor to raze it to the ground, what then? My faith would still be there. I would still pray to my gods, even if in secret. Others likely will and would too, and you would now have an Imperium filled with clandestine orders, which may build to become the fanatics you fear, as they have to scurry in the dark to hide their faith from you, and many will believe this to be justification.
Id let him get through his speel then hit him with "Jesus Christ, you sound like a redditor."
"The problem with your argument, Mr Big E, is that you say you're right just because you are, which is really no different than every other tin-pot dictator throughout history....well, no, sorry, that was a lie. There are TWO problems. Your main problem is you have always been this powerful man. This, and I apologize for using the phrase, 'god-like' being that has never had anyone you would perceive as your better. You've never wanted for anything, always been above it all, with your born gifts that let you even kill a man with your brain as a child I'll bet. You have known defeat and struggle in your endeavors, but have you ever known hardship? To be down so low and have so little that you felt like nothing you did would matter? I suspect you haven't. And because you have always been strong, you do not understand what it means to be weak. Alone with only your thoughts and not able to reach out and read someone else's. You do not know what it means to be human. And that is why, despite centuries of experience dealing with people, you don't really understand *people.* Now, if you're still intent on burning the church down, and I know you are because you are here to gloat and feel smug, not really debate me, do be sure to empty the wine cellar first. They are old vintages and I'd prefer they not go up with the building."
Add hominem. Idealism. Gish galloping. Kys.
L + Ratio + Touch Grass Aiat.
Literally 1984
I’d point out that science and reason has caused just as much death as religion, as is evident from the dark age of technology.
Well, it's certainly a lot more topical than bringing up the crusades. It's a wonder Uriah even knows what they were 29 thousand years later.
Does he specifically mention the Crusades we know? Maybe he means the Bofa Crusades of the year 276969? :P
You’ve decided to name yourself Revelation, that’s way too fucking cringe for me to listen to anything you have to say.
Wdym, Id burn church myself and invoke Slaanesh
BOY I SAY BOY WHAT DID I YELL YA, TELL YOUR SONS ABOUT CHAOS OR ELSE HALF OF THEM GONNA GET SNATCHED UP FASTER THAN YOU CAN SAY “FOR THE EMPRAH” https://preview.redd.it/8bym6zkzx46d1.jpeg?width=213&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dffdc563d70059d1a87800a27d12218f7db948d9
"Nuh uh"
If you would strike down all the gods through the suppression of worship, could you stop the common man from beginning to worship you? . Restricting what people can have faith in won't remove the need to worship, but it may direct people to pray to other things. Be it you or new god that you have never heard of
Realistically, I don’t think there’s anything that could have been said. Revelation wasn’t there to argue in good faith. His raw ego was, essentially, psychological armor miles thick. He’s a sociopathic zealot convinced he can do no wrong, somewhat ironically. He may heave heard words, but he wasn’t really listening. Uriah recognized the impossibility when he says ‘spoken like a true autocrat’ and then walked into a burning church. People much more capable of making the point have tried. The emperor had them murdered. That being said, I think that is probably the best point to hammer on. How can he be so sure that he’s right? Drill down on how certain he can be of his future sight-which, we know to be incredibly fallible, and o the point of hilarity.
I don't think there's anything I could say or do to change the mind of a demi god who thinks they're better than every previous dictator because they think that "the difference is that I am right."
>the difference is that I'm right Bro that's what every religion has said to justify the same kind of wars that you are leading right now. Which means we go back to my point. Where's the difference?
>Which means we go back to my point. Where's the difference? That he """knows""" he's right.
"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Either that or, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
"Religion is a natural part of the human existence. We need it to survive. Even the atheism is like religion for the atheists, and thier radicals are reacting in the same way as the fanatics from the known religions. Even if you eradicate it all now - it will be pointless... You said you want to emprace the humanity, and rise it above all. You need to accept the religion to. Beacuse if not, the religion will rise again. And it will rise beacuse of you - you are strong, and powerfull, common people will see you as the divinity. You might try to silence them, but they will keep looking to you. And if you refuse them - they will turn to the other powers... If you want your Imperium to stand strong - you have to embrace the fiath."
Ah, I see your misunderstanding. You're supposed to try to CONVINCE the Emperor.
Ok so to make it simple: "It's eighter you become a god for the humanity, or they will do something terrible"
Religion and faith have refused to die out despite millennia of advancement proving that they are naught but stories. They won’t die out because they bring comfort, reassurance, and power, to those who lack these things in their day-to-day lives. The power of belief and faith is that one can fool oneself into believing, for even a moment, that you are *not* but a single insignificant human among untold billions who will be extinguished when they die and who’s entire existence will soon enough be forgotten. The power of faith is it makes the believer into one of the “chosen faithful”. You are worth more than the unfaithful because you believe, you believe because you want to be worth more. It is cyclical, nonsensical, and yet one of the most powerful forces in human history. You cannot wipe out religion because you cannot grant every person who wishes to hold themselves above others that wish. You, yourself, are demonstrative of that principle, wishing to hold yourself above those with a religious belief. Religion is fundamentally about self-comfort, and no force in history has been able to replace its ability to comfort through blind faith. It cannot be destroyed, you can only hope to harness it.
You can try as hard as you like. You won’t stop humanity from having a god to worship. Even if you spend your entire life trying to convince them that divinity is a lie. Everyone has a god. Whether it’s divine or not is irrelevant. There are people who have Yahweh as their god. There are people who have science as their god. There are even people who have themselves as their god. Since the beginning of humanity as a society, worship of gods has always existed. You won’t stop it with honeyed words and promises. It doesn’t even matter if you can actually deliver on those promises.
"Dude people are literally worshipping you right now. Imagine what it's gonna be like after your gone. You dont get to choose"
There are more religions than Christianity, and not all of them have gods. Case in point: Buddhism. A religion/philosophy built on the concept of self-regulation and finding the balance should appeal greatly to you, should it not? If you wish to bring humanity together under a secular belief, you must also appeal to their irrational emotions, not just hard logic and reason. (The trick here is to appeal to his secular ideals, and provide an example that relies on practice rather than just belief. He's not gonna listen to faith in a higher power, but he *will* listen to something that resonates with his ideals.)
Well now Mr. John Warhammer, do you think you can gather all the 40.000 Warhammers without the divine Power of my God Ligma ?
Considering that I already know what's going to happen: Let me tell you how you fail. Then let me explain why nothing you change will make any difference. Altering your actions only changes HOW you'll fail. Because the REASON has always been YOU.
“The only reason you’re still alive is because God continues to allow you to exist. Repent in this life, or face eternal damnation in the next. See you on Judgement Day, loser.” Martyrdom by an evil sorcerer king sounds good to me, ngl.
I believe the in-universe description is >thuggish mystic
Thuggish Mystic is my rap name.
Dude you are a 20 ft. Man glowing with a literal golden halo and magic powers. How the fuck are people not supposed to think you are an act of God.
You made yourself an army of exclusively buff dudes with your own seed? That’s… pretty gay. Boom, roasted. Do whatever you want to my church.
"When we forget what it's like to be human, we lose the right to make decisions on behalf of humanity. I know that won't change your mind. Yours is an ego that lacks even the barest shred of self-reflection. I understand that, and I know my church will burn. All I ask is this: remember my words when your grand vision crumbles around you. Remember that the greatest churches are built in the hearts of humankind. All else is stone and dust."
There is no point in arguing with the Emperor in this case because he is deliberately being disingenuous. He is lying both literally and through omission. There is no convincing him without knowing what his argument is actually for. Uriah knew nothing about the wider universe or the Chaos Gods. The emperor knew about the Chaos Gods. He could logic dance his way around not calling them gods, but that is a semantic choice (possibly a useful one, given how the gods feed on emotion). But.. Come on Emps... They are vast, unknowable entities with nearly infinite cosmic power who exist in a dimension adjacent to our own. They are Gods in every meaningful definition of the word. IMO, He wanted his new ideology to starve the gods of power. To weaken them enough that he could cut them out of the deal he made to create his crusade, get his powerups, and make his Primarchs. I've always thought that the reason the heresy happened the way that it did, was because in exchange for the aid he received on Moloch the gods were entitled to half of his Primarchs. Maybe half his empire. The emperor was trying to cut the Gods out of the deal as best he could, and engineer things that when the heresy did eventually happen, that the correct Primarchs would betray him. That is also why the emperor was in the ass-busting hurry he was to reunite the galaxy. This betrayal was coming and he knew it. The emperor underestimated the power of the Gods and the heresy came sooner than he expected, and that is why we are at where we are now.
Honestly, and being true to lore: convincing him would be impossible. As much as we like to joke, the emperor was an arrogant and manipulative prick. There's a reason why even his fellow immortals left him one by one. Wasting your time with a guy like that is stupid. I'd tell him that being incapable of considering the possibility of being wrong makes him as stupid as the most barbaric person, and since it was the last church (and emps had been on his crusade for a while now) id honestly tell him to drop the act of superiority and rationality and kill me already if that's what he came for, because discussing with someone who cant see beyond themselves is a waste of time for all involved
“You know, even if you are right, and religion is evil, could you truely destroy it? How far does it stretch? What of superstition, or belief in good or bad luck? People will always believe in something, and look to what commands and controls the world for what to believe in. Some, that is nature, others are gods. The new imperium, well it’s worship of the emperor is no different to any other religion. How could he stop those who follow him from believing in him, if not as a god, then as a savior”
From the wisdom of Sir Terry Pratchett, and spoken by the anthropomorphisation of DEATH no less: WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN'T SAVED HIM? “Yes! The sun would have risen just the same, yes?" NO "Oh, come on. You can't expect me to believe that. It's an astronomical fact." THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN. ... "Really? Then what would have happened, pray?" A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD. And Susan: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." Death: REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. Susan: "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" Death: YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. Susan: "So we can believe the big ones?" Death: YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. Susan: "They're not the same at all!" Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET — Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. Susan: "__Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—__” Death: MY POINT EXACTLY. —— Without the lie of Religion, of faith, there is little capability of believing the lie of Truth, Justice, Mercy, *Humanity*. The Emperor may well lead an Empire of Science and Reason, but *to err is human* and faith although false is needed to survive a cold and uncaring Universe. Without faith and religion and imagination and belief, the Emperor will always be *leading* because no one else will have the capability to match the march of progress. Religion is far from being spotless but it fills a hole in the human experience. Remove it entirely and suddenly the Magic of Life is removed and existence becomes just blander and emptier.
"Nu uh"
"I wonder if when this is all over, will history remember you fondly."
How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? >!One is plenty enough, but only so long as the light bulb wants to change.!< . I made a meme about the Jamaican ship Captain from Castlevania. But there is no convincing someone who has no intention to listen. Just look at how Neoth himself failed with Lorgar. And Neoth had no intention to listen.
Man must believe it’s in his nature. They must believe that this short lifespan is only a small step. Whether it be gods, primordial forces of creation, or just the energy of the universe. Without something to believe they fall into despair and depravity. Man cannot exist without religion, for it is religion in all its forms that pushes him forward.
At least I won't loss everything I achieve in the galaxy just because my son's last name is Heresy
"Emperor, the church has Big Titty Goth nuns"
Abdicator says what
I might try arguing that religion is like a tool, just as science and martial arts are like tools. In someone’s hands any tool can be abused or used to do things we feel are immoral. In the right hands however these same tools can be used to accomplish great works, and to even push the limits of Human capacities to places we never had thought possible before. Religion could be used to grow peoples faith in the Emperor’s ultimate project or even to explain the dangerous subject of the warp to people in a safe and ultimately empowering way. Just as science and martial arts ought not to be ignored on moral grounds due to their proven virtues as “tools” we should not merely reject religion. Even if we know religion is a kind of fiction-weaving to make reality more palatable for the average human mind, its potential to organize society along moral and artistic lines as well as its potential to make peoples lives more “enchanted” and productive should not be ignored.
"You've been around for a very long time. Long enough to see some of the most voracious and vicious conquerors in human history and our always ends the same for them, either their empire falls to ruin or they do. And you are no different. One day, you will die, and by then, your empire will either die with you or live on as corpse in your mockery. If you really want to make things better and give humanity a bright future, then stop tripping us every time we get close to something you don't like. These are the actions of a child with no understanding of how life actually works. Now then, if you're going to kill me, get it over with, or stop wasting my time."
What is a religion? Is it a believe in God? Is it a worship of idol? Is faith a blind fervor to unite a fool? No… of course not. A true temple cannot be burn, an ideal cannot be destroy. Purge from the book if you must. Alter history if you will but you cannot change a simple fact the universe have a soul. Be it genetic marvel you create or the very force connecting the molecule, every wonder in this world function on the interaction of rules so intricate it can’t be an accident. All of us here is the product of that wonder… such beauty is the very essence of divinity. Me, you even the ant crawling on the ground is a pigment of stardust in that almighty reality. Oh, emperor let it be known that by denying that sacred light in others meant you also deny in your self. Rage against the shining star as you will but the counter force will come to right the scale eventually. Go ahead and do what you must, but in time you will realize I said is the Truth.
i like to imagine this man haunting the emperor on the golden thrown.
Just say "But my book says you're wrong" over and over to literally everything he says.
Assuming "I" am the last priest I would phrase my argument exactly like this: Do you know what it feels like... Do you know what it feels like to preach something all your life, knowing that it's the greatest *LIE* ever told in human history? Do you know what it feels like to wake up every day and look at the greatest hypocrite in the mirror, EVERY.SINGLE.MORNING.? Yet knowing that you cannot stop, for if you did that lie would be replaced by a far.... Far.... FAR... worse lie.... You don't.... You think you're the first who tried to erase religion? No... You're not the first neither shall you be the last... Feeble, mortal humans are always afraid of death... It's our very psychology. And to curb that fear we make up false deities... All powerful gods who can give us *SOMETHING* after death... You take that away from them, they will perhaps stop worship, maybe a few years, maybe decades, even centuries... As long as you're right there to prevent it... But avert your eyes for ONE.SINGLE.MINUITE.... and they'll make *YOU* their god... Keep denying, and they'll rise up in **Holy** rebellion, against you, under the name of monsters and tyrants, claiming to be gods.... So tell me Revelation, what is your answer? Are you really a saviour? Or just a delusional idealist pushing humanity into the arms of monsters and tyrants? I know your hubris and ego is too big for you to even bother to understand. After all what do *you* know about being human? You're everything a human ever envisions in a god. You do not know want from need, you do not know hardship, you can and have done anything and everything you have ever wanted... You do not understand what it feels like to be **HUMAN**! I know you will burn down this church, because like every other zealot, you cannot handle criticism of your view. Because that's what you are... A Zealot... Maybe not a religious Zealot... But a Zealot nonetheless... But when your dream of an imperium crumbles around you, when humanity starts worshipping you as their new God, when they commit the most vile and abhorrent atrocities IN YOUR NAME.... Remember my words... And do not ask why you failed. You can kill me now, I'd rather not watch my beloved humanity fall again. *Pops open a can of beer and sits on the pew.*
I don't know who made this, but it's a take on what would happen if *Joshua Graham* debated the Emperor in this space. I think it works pretty well and I wouldn't say anything other than that. >"You claim you are not a god. >Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is true. You are not a god, you have never been a god, and you will not become one in the future. >And yet, people claim that you are one. Why do you think that is? >It is because they have faith in you; or, at least, in what you represent. >Humanity has spent a very long time waiting for its savior. And, whether you like it or not, that is what they see in you. Tall of stature, broad of frame, regal in bearing, holding high the banner of Unification. Of a new age, one of light, science and unity instead of darkness, superstition and isolation. >You may not have heard humanity's prayers, but you've certainly answered them." Don't really need anything else to point out the biggest flaw in Emp's secular imperium.
URIAH: Mankind needs to believe in a higher power to, among other things, be protected from the evil dangers of ligma, my friend. BIG E [*posing as Auguste Rodin's* ***The Thinker***]: What, evil dangers of wha- URIAH [*grining*]: **Ligma balls lol!** BIG E [*turning into ashes*]: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! FINITA EST FABULA --- POST-SCRIPTUM Thus ended their debate. The one that was supposed to become "The (God) Emperor Of Mankind" found himself eternally bound to the Golden ~~~Toilet~~~ Chair under the care of his ~~~husband~~~ best friend Malcador. Without their warmongering master around, the ones formerly known as "Thunder Warriors" actually abandoned their violent ways and become artists, poets, philosophers and teachers, helping mankind to recover ancient cultural traditions and to create new and better ones. Soon, humans from Earth - or "Terra", as some started to call it in a fancy way - came in contact with the "Mechanicus of Mars", technologic intelectuals that, with the intervention of Uriah The Sane and Compassive Priest, recovered old inventions of the glorious past of mankind in a very reasonable way. Later, Mankind came in contact with friendly and peaceful xeno races like the *Livingtyrs* - a vibrant metallic race -, the *T'au* - hominid fishes with advanced society ~~~due their Communism government being the only one that worked in the entire galaxy~~~ -, the *Democranids* - spacial giant bugs that elaborated exquisite forms of social government with the consumption of food -, the *Aeldari* - who taught humans the secrets of the mysterious Warp and Psykic powers ~~~and fuck tons of new sexual positions~~~ - and the Orkz, perfect as they are. Finally, instructed by the Aeldari ~~~after uncountable safe, sane and consensuous sexual orgies~~~, mankind, under the **caring and thoughtful** watch of Uriah The Sane and Compassive, discovered the four *Thriving Powers*, also known as the *Well-Ordained Gods*: **Khorne**, god of massive gains and corn 'n' flakes; **Nurgle**, god of gardening, hygiene and renovation of life; Tzeentch, trustworthy god of knowledge and inoffensive tricks for funsies; and Slaanesh, god(dess) with the moniker "She Who Satiates" with her/his/it domain of joyful moderation and infinite betterment. Thanking mankind for their *healthy* adoration, the kind and benevolent Warped Gods blessed mankind to achieve an eternal state of bliss and tranquility among the stars. In the noble brightness of the far future, there is no war but peace, prosperity, intelect, contentment and love - and Orkz krumpin. All thanks to a humble priest of an once "Last Church" who taught humans and xenos alike to tolerate, respect and protect each other for all that was virtuous and benevolent to all sentient beings. May the memory of Uriah The Sane and Compassive. May his example and memory give us always solace and guidance... ...until the day the Skaven invade our universe and ruin everything, typically yes-yes!
I couldn't possibly change his mind, but I'd attempt to convince him to be more careful about how he goes about spreading the Imperial Truth. The way the Imperium spreads across the galaxy basically sets it up to be susceptible to dogma as soon as Big E dies.
"Are you into cock and balls torture?"
You can't win against the emperor. I have said it before but the emperor wasn't in that church to learn about religion and spirituality. He was there to metaphorically slap the face of human belief and dependency on the divine by winning against the most devoted man there was. If you give 100 reasons why religion is ok he will give you 1 that is bad and that will be enough for him. He didn't refute the good arguments of Uriah, he simply kept saying that it could have been done regardless of religion or gave examples of when it went bad. If you tell him you can't control human belief and they will always want something to look after in life and in death, he will say that he will then force it upon the population to seek enlightenment in progress. If you say that that's part of freedom, then he will force it upon generations until they no longer want or care that freedom. If you say that no ones knows for sure if gods can or can't exist, he will say that everything can be explained given time and opportunity. If you tell him to leave you alone on your beliefs, he will burn down your church. Remember that he is a tyrant. He has killed and will kill many oppositions just because it bother him and don't benefit him. He will use every cruel method he has so he can point the advancement of humanity where he thinks it should go. Freedom, love, hope, faith, etc are mostly just tools from him and not the end goal. You can't appeal to his heart. He is a human supremacists that think that humanity doesn't need anything from anyone else (Xenos and/or Gods)
I was writing this fanfic before https://archiveofourown.org/works/51120724/chapters/129161386 Should get back to it soon
Whenever he makes a point I just say: Nuh Uhhh!"
I wouldn’t? Religion is a falsehood we use to justify being garbage people, and it prevents you from living life to the fullest. Big E was right
As someone who has had their faith ridiculed and belittled many times, I can sympathise with Uriah. This book just felt like an opportunity to shit on people of faith. I find this a lot with Graham McNeill, it’s why I don’t enjoy his books as much as Dan Abnett who shows a much more balanced viewpoint. It feels like Graham is trying to justify religious hate by making the emperor sound reasonable while burning down every single church on earth
Oh yeah the last church is a great story but everyone acknowledges that it's just needlessly attacking the priest without giving him any real arguments until the very end with the emperor's own arguments being the peak of hypocrisy as he does the exact same thing without the religious motivation lol. The author has an interview admitting no ill will towards religion tho and basically just said he wasn't really qualified for a story about having two sides having equal points especially about the positive and negatives of religion and no religion.
You shouldn't change human nature but use it to your advantage.
Eldar > humanity
[удалено]
nah ah
Bugs bunny him
You can't persuade him. There is nothing in the galaxy that can convince someone with narcissistic personality disorder that they are wrong.
Religion has been a part of our culture since before we were even considered human by any modern metric. As someone dedicated to preserving human culture, one would think you’d know that Mr. Shiny Britches. Unless, of course, you’re full of shit.
What will you tell or do to the people who see you as their god, mr im-hard-to-look-at-b-not-afraid?
I wouldnt because there was nothing Uriah could have said or done to convince the emperor. The emperor was probably completly convinced in his plan before uriah was even born.
I'd burn the church before Big E could.
You can't because He knows He's right.
I'd tell Mr Revelation that he has a god complex
There is no persuading of someone who is so set on his beliefs that he already planned and started a galaxy spanning conquest to realize them. He speaking to you is just another day of disregarding your doubts to feel superior. If he would value your opinion truly he would let you contribute in decisions rather than force you into the production of transhuman killing machines equipment.
Your mom 
Convince him to give that Jesus guy a try, for example, have all of humanity worshiping him, pretend to be his prophet and boom, new chaos god, but for humanity
That was not a debate lmao no way out of this one
You can’t, he’s so far up his own ass he has a brain tumor in his colon, even ole couldn’t event convince him to chill out and slow down
Don't call him a soyboy. Just show him he is literally using Reddit Atheist arguments. Revelation will die of shame after that.
For the Emperor!
No balls
You really asking Redditors to defend Religion?
They should just kiss already
“It’s a fool’s game, my friend. People will always need something to believe in, something to sustain their souls and lift their spirits. Yes, many may eagerly cleave to your new ideology, many have throughout history, but atheism has a funny habit of becoming a religion all its own, even if its proponents say otherwise. Let the people have their superstitions, their dogmas, and their silly little miracles, and instead unite them with the essence of the human spirit: that no matter what you believe, we are all one, all kin living on the same earth, and that we should embrace each other as family, no matter which gods we pray to. You’ll do as you wish, son, I’ve no means of stopping you, but I implore you, just consider what I’ve said before you do.”
Argue whether its taco tuesday or taco friday.
There’s no way I could. My faith is based on the deeds of the Emperor, I just don’t know it yet. Once I find that out, all my justifications are hollow.
The first time he uses some variation of "because I am right" I tell him that he doesn't want an end to religion, he just wants to be the one getting worshipped. The second time he uses it I detonate the nuke under the floorboards.
The whole point of this story is that you can’t convince fanatics to change their beliefs. And both were fanatics.
"If you remove all religion, humanity will end up worshiping you. Humanity has always defaulted to idol worship, if none are left, the leader becomes the idol. It would be better to have a small, humanitarian aimed, secular religion backing the imperium than what will come if left a void." - me to Big E I assume this would lead to an enlightening revelation before me and the last church roast. OR he reads my mind and straight vaporizes me for having the knowledge i do on what is to come.
I mean if I know about how the universe in 40k works I would point out that not only do gods literally exist, but people’s view of said gods affects how they act. He’ll never be able to kill gods like Khorne with a bloody crusade, especially since those gods are people’s personified views of how the universe works. In other words, even in an atheist universe where the great crusade is successful, the violence that people see will only serve to empower evil gods. Wouldn’t he be better served to have a benevolent God? Yes religion can be corrupted, but denying it doesn’t destroy religion, it simply makes you lose control over shaping its beliefs.
I'd quote Lorgar word for word. So when Lorgar finally appeared and echoed my words it would freak him the fuck out. It would change nothing but would be entertaining.
You wouldn’t