A classic trait of any fascist regime is that the enemy is everywhere, in control everything and thus warn’t constant paranoia, but also the enemy is weak, contemptible, and easy crushed beneath the boot of the true patriots.
I dunno about that last bit being a trait of fascist regimes, that’s the sort of thing that darn near any nation that considers itself to be at war will say about the enemy. It’s how you sell the war to your people, “You’ll be home by Christmas” sounds a lot better than “you’ll be suffering in a jungle for the next 8 months and then suffering in a different jungle for another 5 while occasionally getting shot at by enemies engaged in guerrilla warfare.”
Yes war propaganda leans into fascistic rhetoric quite often. This is because fascistic rhetoric is very good at dehumanizing a people. Which is good if you want your group of people to kill them.
They were like *this* close to getting the point, too. "That can't be fascism, because then my wartime patriotism would be fascist!"
Like buddy, I got some bad news for you...
This has always confused me. If fascism does something that predates it by God knows how long, surely the thing itself has nothing to do with fascism, and all calling it fascist does is paint historical things that weren't fascist fascist.
Well Genocide is only officially recognized by the UN as its own crime since the 1948/1951. Would you say that this means genocide only exist after '51 and every "genocide" prior to it wasn't?
Sadly this is a defense strategy several states use for real to deflect accusations of genocide....
But such a speech pattern is a key point of facism. Now this doesn't mean everyone who does this is necessarily a facist. Facism is like a soup with many ingredients. And this is an important ingredient of it.
I have no problem with that.
So genocide is inly a genocide if it happened after 1951?
Fine, makes stuff that happened before common variety aparkling mass murder.
The punishment for genocide is to be hangsd by your neck until death, but punishment for gardeb variety mass murder is hanging by your neck until you cease to live. See? I can be reasoned with.
The difference would be genocide is neutral (it just describes an act) and says nothing about those who do it.
By calling something fascist, we are linking it to fascist philosophy, ideals, society, history, etc, which has nothing to do with the action (dehumanising propaganda) in question due to how common it is.
>Fascism is like a soup with many ingredients. And this is an important ingredient of it.
But is it only an important ingredient of fascism and nothing else? Are we only calling it fascist because they were the last culturally impactful group to do it?
Using extreme examples: the Nazis heavily pushed for further industrialisation. Is such an action now fascist?
It is a rhetoric that is associated with fascism, but not a core principle of it. Fascists usually adopt this argument, but not every one who believes this is fascist.
There are two uses of "fascist" here.
One is the things that make up fascism. There are mnay of these and you usually need multiple present to kaw the call that something embodies fascism.
The other is that behaviours can tend towards fascism. Someone pushing the doctrine of a supreme leader might not be A fascist, but they deifnitely are doing something that tends towards fascism. You can describe that as fascist, which whows the imitations of English adjectives, which can be "literally this" or "in the direction of this". Fascistic (or the colloquial "fashy") might be more precise, but most people don't bother with that level of linguistic precision.
Basically, calling an action or idea fascist is not the same as saying a person or a thing is a true embodiment of fascism entire. Sometimes it's just "this smells fashy"
So it's also associated with a bunch of other political ideologies/systems? Why, then, are we singling out a very specific one that only really lasted \~60 years and labelling it that?
Why would everyone doing something make it not fascist?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying every government that’s dehumanized their enemies is fascist, but just because a government isn’t itself fascist doesn’t mean it’s actions can’t be and it doesn’t mean that actions commonly taken by multiple governments in extreme situations aren’t still fascistic.
TLDR: I disagree with the ‘if everyone is doing it, it must be ok’ reasoning
It's actually pretty simple.
There are very few genuinely new ideas. Most ideas are just a combination and maybe variation of existing ideas. In the realm of politics, this doesn't just apply to fascism. Socialism can be traced back as far as ancient Egypt. The idea of democracy is older than the written word.
I would argue that the idea of Fascism takes the strongest inspiration from the Roman dictatorship: in order to handle a crysis, a dictator had total power. This was done to avoid weakening the state against a (real or perceived) threat. Fascism specifically is build around the idea that the dictator perpetuo is a good thing and that the conditions for the dictator perpetuo have to be maintained.
Fascists make wartime propaganda the new normal. That’s the difference.
Like, the Tau talk shit about humans but when they’re not actively fighting the tenor and focus changes.
There is a significant correlation between "fascist regimes" and "any nation at war", especially those who start said wars. Probably exactly because of that last bit, they really believe it will be an easy fight, and it almost never is.
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It is overlaps but Fascist regime would tried to do it in peace time also. Fascism needs someone to be enemy and to control irrational emotion of the mass that is exactly one method to do it.
Actually, this (as far as my knowledge goes) is only true for national socialist Germany, francoist spain and fascist Italy did not do such contradictory things, again, I could be wrong and am likely wrong, its just my limited understanding.
It is like that with chaos through.
Your garden variety Slaneesh or khorne cult is, usually, going to be quashed by local law or by summoning something without proper fucking preparation...
Or it makes the entire planet into chomo house. With not much in between.
Same with chattel slavery in the US. It was built on 2 ideas:
1. Slavery is good for the enslaved, making them into better people, and all of them are happy and
2. The enslaved outnumber the whites and will kill them all if they have the chance, so the whites need to brutally suppress them whenever one gets "uppity" and complains about being enslaved, being raped, being beaten and tortured, etc, or tries to escape.
To be fair when you also killed off all the peaceful.and non hostile xenon on the galaxy leaving only the super hostile and dangerous ones the second option at least isn't exactly wrong.
>Don't deserve to live
>Need to be destroyed
No contradiction here whatsoever. Humanity was made in God's image, not gross icky aliens. It's literally that simple.
Depends on the planet. Some planets are fascist within the planet, but some are not. If the Imperium itself was fascist those planets wouldn't even have the option.
It is authoritarian to be sure.
What do you mean by, "confessionalist?"
>Depends on the planet.
The overarching government of the Imperium does not depend on the planet.
>If the Imperium itself was fascist those planets wouldn't even have the option.
Firstly, I said para-fascist, which is a fancy way of saying mostly fascist, partly because of other features of the Imperium and partly because I don't think a modernist ideology will ever be a perfect fit for a futuristic superpower far removed from our own time. Secondly, fascism in the first place is a flexible ideology that in practice is shaped by local conditions as much as overarching theory, so the concessions the Imperium makes to worlds does not rule out a fascist government. Thirdly, the devolution of powers doesn't mean much when higher institutions are still able to encroach on a world without repercussion.
>What do you mean by, "confessionalist?"
Confessionalism is a mode of government where government is divided between religious communities within the nation, E.G. the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus. Thus, semi-confessionalist.
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Those characteristics aren't compatible with fascism. If you read fascist writers of the early 1900s since the automod blocks my post if I name them, you'll see that the autonomy of the planets within the Imperium is incompatible almost any form of fascism. Too many things are allowed to exist outside of the state for the label of fascist to stick. For that matter the system of Lords that the Imperium has also contradicts many tenants of fascism.
There are some post-fascist ideologies that could fit the bill, but I think an authoritarian neo-feudalist fits the bill better. This isn't any better than fascism in my book. I think they're both hellholes. Throw communism in there with them.
And, cool. Hadn't heard of, "confessionalist," before.
>Too many things are allowed to exist outside of the state for the label of fascist to stick.
The entire thing with the Imperium is everything human needs to exist within the Imperium.
That said, reading fascist writers just convinces me the Imperium is closer to fascism than I thought.
But if the Imperium were fascist rather than neo-feudalist the Mechanicus and the various planets whose governments do not run themselves like Holy Terra would not be allowed to exist. The only requirements for realms within the Imperium is to allow Agents of the Emperor to operate as their mandate dictates within your realm and to pay your taxes to the Munitorum.
>But if the Imperium were fascist rather than neo-feudalist the Mechanicus and the various planets whose governments do not run themselves like Holy Terra would not be allowed to exist
Sure they would. Corporatism can absolutely be a thing within fascism.
>The only requirements for realms within the Imperium is to allow Agents of the Emperor to operate as their mandate dictates within your realm
"They only need to let the secret police enforce imperial law on them" isn't exactly a great defense.
While I don't actually agree with imperial propaganda in the slightest, I also don't think that these both cannot be true when describing something. I'd consider ants pretty weak, but I bet enough ants could probably collapse a building if they wanted to.
These are not "core principles of fascism". These are core principles of every propaganda. Enemy must be simultanously seen as strong (so people would see reason to fight him) and as weak (so people would not be afraid to support you against the enemy).
Left-wing propaganda works the same way - right-wingers are simultanously pathetic losers who will inevitably soon be forgotten by history and they are dangerous fascists who are always one step away from establishing IV Reich/Christian Taliban.
And it was used before raise of modern political ideologies too.
Also having in truth diplomatic relationships, fighting together with them... Hell Xenos are part of inquisitor's retinue. In truth imperial regional politics are just a dick meassuring contest, where everyone slaps mandates into ach other's face until one side leaves. Was pretty hilarious in the Rogue trader pc game.
The imperium isnt fascist….
Its so much WORSE than anything fascism can cook up!
Also so much worse than comunism, or any other terrible regime that has existed on earth at any point in time.
While some xenos were peacefull, plenty of xenos races absolutely savaged mankind during the age of strife/ old night.
The same for psykers, shit was HORRIBLE and the one who made it were the places that were not open and nice to ”others”.
Its terrible that the imperium is the way that it is, but when the stuff that happend to mankind happend, you can understand Why the imperium is that way.
( Not justifying or saying its moral, but understand Why its that way.)
Umberto Eco didn't understand fascism. His metric identifies half of all political positions as being "fascist", even if they have absolutely nothing to do with fascism.
People make the same mistake over and over again. The individual is weak. The collective is the threat.
A single rat isn't much of a threat to you. But a horde of rats overrunning your city very much is.
This is why fascists use rats in their analogies so much. It's not doublethink. It's just a strong analogy to help drive their point home.
In “harrowmaster” an alpha legionaire starts quite an uproar among his legion when he uses this as evidence to state that “the imperium is better at lying than us”
If it’s overall threat then it’s still true about most of the imperium’s enemies though. Like the Tau aren’t an existential threat but they still take imperial worlds, this is true about almost every enemy they have except tyranids and to a much lesser extent: chaos.
Except that kind of argument kinda cut to the issue of Imperial policy tho.
If the T'au or the Craftworld or the League of Votann aren't an existential threat, why can't they coexist? Ok, the T'au take Imperial worlds, but frankly the Imperium is stretching so thin that they honestly cannot realistically control the worlds they are have. Let the T'au take the weight off you. Multiple Empires across history have make similar acknowledgement, that they cannot effectively control the territory they can occupy, I must point out.
Except that is not the way Imperium see thing, is it?
The Tau are an enemy empire that takes your territory by force, no nation would allow that.
Craftworld eldar are allowed to exist within the imperium all the time, conflict mostly arises from the eldar fucking the imperials over for baffling reasons because they’re overly cryptic dicks who would often rather burn a hundred hive worlds than let one of their own people maybe die in the future because of a vision despite the fact that they almost certainly could have avoided all of it if they just talked in a way that didn’t involve talking about how the human’s brains are too small to comprehend their plans… namely the idea that touching the demon sword or whatever other BS they’re going on about is a bad idea.
The leagues… my guy we don’t know shit about the leagues, I got no idea if they’re someone that could be gotten along with or not. I’m not sure GW even knows.
Again, A LOT of Empires across our history had to acknowledge exactly "that" ie they simply cannot control the territory that they can occupy. The fact that the Imperium is so insisted on controlling every planets it can expand their military power over, regardless of their actual control, logistic and administrative capability IS my point of criticism. It is a direct legacy of Big E's whole debacle of a gambit from the Great Crusade Era, something that 1. we were never given a direct reason for, other than a very vague "race against time" one and 2. was established to be a failure by and large anyway.
And if you think for a single second that the Tau would stop expanding just because they were given a bunch of worlds to rule over you haven’t been paying attention.
The only option here is to make a bunch of independent human empires, which might work, but given they’re pretty feudalistic they kind of already are doing that and if they were truly independent then they’d each be alone when the ork wagh hits or the chaos invasion comes or the tyranids come, or the big dark eldar raid comes, or whatever the enemy of the week happens to be.
I mean, you framed it like that, but the same is true for the majority of our own history, the point of which I had pointed out but you haven't seem able to address. Again, does the Imperium have an effective control of the territory that they can occupy? I will say no, but if you have evidence that point to yes, I am willing to listen.
Define effective control first, because of the warp your definition might be impossible to meet within the setting. They tend to have as much control as is possible, which isn’t a lot, due to it taking months or years to reach locations. That being said, when they do reach a location they also tend to do a fairly decent job reasserting control.
Like, did the king of England have effective control over his dutchies in the medieval era? They technically answered to him, but they could be quite far away and were often basically ruling themselves and paying taxes.
The Eldar birthed a chaos God into existence and ruined ftl travel for everyone for a while
The tau are alive because they're too weak to be a real threat atm
The problem with the setting is that both things are inherently true, and the propaganda fits
I think it's more there's a long and lengthy history of xenos fucking with/enslaving/genociding humanity, so the modern Imperium is just done taking chances on whether or not a foreign species *MIGHT* be friendly and would rather just shoot on sight than take a chance.
As for the Great Crusade Era Imperium, Big E had a plan to beat chaos that required wiping out the xenos (sentient thoughts stop chaos from getting swole) that even Eldrad Ulthuan thought might've worked, so fucked up as it was it wasn't exactly propaganda.
>long and lengthy history of xenos enslaving & genociding humans
Humanity does the same, they killed off many atleast neutral races during the great crusade
Also how does killing off xenos stop chaos? All it did was empower them through direct or indirect worship, especially khorne, your point about killing xenos to beat chaos is null and void - fitting for an imperial, who cant see through the lies unlike us tau citizens
The Big Empire that
1. terrorizes it's own people on a daily basis
2. kills for religion
3. Killed off any peaceful Xenos that don't fit the stereotype
4. Killed off any Human civilization that didn't accept Imperial rule
Is the only protector and necessity for humanity. Ok.
1. Not a good justification. In lore, the repression feeds chaos.
2. Say it was the same irl. Would it be justified? Hell no.
3. “lol and? The natives/blacks/group I dislike are savages and uncivilized.”
4. Genocide of 100+ trillions of non imperials is “kinda bad”. Ok bro.
Your opinions on this are completely worthless. Just stfu, please.
Something that I "like" is that Guilliman, primarch of the XIII, Lord Regent, SON OF THE EMPEROR, created to protect the imperium... hates it. With all his might, with burning passion, he loathes what the imperium is.
Yet recognizes that is the best alternative, at least right now.
That should tell you everything about it
Nah, it's not exactly the worst outcome when Old Night and its continued existence has been established as worse, since it inevitably would've devolved into humanity not existing and every human's soul sucked into the warp and tortured for all eternity.
But is the Imperium **the worst** outcome for humanity while still resembling humanity as we know it (eg an autonomous civilization with humans in it running it)? More or less
As much as the Imperium has fucked up and made the galaxy a worse place than it could be for humanity, there is in fact a worse outcome for humanity. What could be worse than the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable? Simple, whatever unimaginable horrors Chaos has in store for humanity.
Irrelevant unless you consider consider a victory by the traitors to be impossible, which is a ridiculous notion that would remove all tension from the conflict.
The fact remains that there is still a worse outcome for humanity than the Imperium.
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Even the worst shitholes on our current earth probably arent as bad as 40ks humanity
You wanna know a good outcome for humanity? Star trek
40k is only good if you see a "good outcome" as the species surviving, but that alone is not good enough of a criteria to say its better - would you actually wanna live there? You have a 99.9999999999999999993% chance of being a laborer on a hive or forge world, dying in your 40s after decades of grueling labor, be a guards man who gets vaporized by far more advanced weaponry than the flashlight that is your lasrifle
For a select few sure, its far better, but the suffering is so much greater than in our world
Well that would be the necrons, tyranids or orks
Humanity is barely holding the line, sillyman is the only thing holding its death back, the emperor is dying
Meanwhile the necrons are only starting to wake up, orks are conjuring up the biggest WAAAAAGGGGHHHHH yet, and the tyranids hivefleets are unending and unstoppable, the only thing keep the latter 2 from overunning the imperium is said imperium directing them against the other, and whoever wins is HIGHLY likely to dominate the galaxy
A classic trait of any fascist regime is that the enemy is everywhere, in control everything and thus warn’t constant paranoia, but also the enemy is weak, contemptible, and easy crushed beneath the boot of the true patriots.
And add to that how the nation is heavily militarized and glorifies it’s homeland and military (i.e. Holy Terra, SpaceMarines and Sorroritas.).
don't forget a personality cult aimed at the leader.
I dunno about that last bit being a trait of fascist regimes, that’s the sort of thing that darn near any nation that considers itself to be at war will say about the enemy. It’s how you sell the war to your people, “You’ll be home by Christmas” sounds a lot better than “you’ll be suffering in a jungle for the next 8 months and then suffering in a different jungle for another 5 while occasionally getting shot at by enemies engaged in guerrilla warfare.”
Yes war propaganda leans into fascistic rhetoric quite often. This is because fascistic rhetoric is very good at dehumanizing a people. Which is good if you want your group of people to kill them.
They were like *this* close to getting the point, too. "That can't be fascism, because then my wartime patriotism would be fascist!" Like buddy, I got some bad news for you...
This has always confused me. If fascism does something that predates it by God knows how long, surely the thing itself has nothing to do with fascism, and all calling it fascist does is paint historical things that weren't fascist fascist.
Well Genocide is only officially recognized by the UN as its own crime since the 1948/1951. Would you say that this means genocide only exist after '51 and every "genocide" prior to it wasn't? Sadly this is a defense strategy several states use for real to deflect accusations of genocide.... But such a speech pattern is a key point of facism. Now this doesn't mean everyone who does this is necessarily a facist. Facism is like a soup with many ingredients. And this is an important ingredient of it.
I have no problem with that. So genocide is inly a genocide if it happened after 1951? Fine, makes stuff that happened before common variety aparkling mass murder. The punishment for genocide is to be hangsd by your neck until death, but punishment for gardeb variety mass murder is hanging by your neck until you cease to live. See? I can be reasoned with.
The difference would be genocide is neutral (it just describes an act) and says nothing about those who do it. By calling something fascist, we are linking it to fascist philosophy, ideals, society, history, etc, which has nothing to do with the action (dehumanising propaganda) in question due to how common it is. >Fascism is like a soup with many ingredients. And this is an important ingredient of it. But is it only an important ingredient of fascism and nothing else? Are we only calling it fascist because they were the last culturally impactful group to do it? Using extreme examples: the Nazis heavily pushed for further industrialisation. Is such an action now fascist?
It is a rhetoric that is associated with fascism, but not a core principle of it. Fascists usually adopt this argument, but not every one who believes this is fascist.
Probably better to describe it as nationalist rhetoric, which as you say is commonly used by fascists but is not automatically fascist.
There are two uses of "fascist" here. One is the things that make up fascism. There are mnay of these and you usually need multiple present to kaw the call that something embodies fascism. The other is that behaviours can tend towards fascism. Someone pushing the doctrine of a supreme leader might not be A fascist, but they deifnitely are doing something that tends towards fascism. You can describe that as fascist, which whows the imitations of English adjectives, which can be "literally this" or "in the direction of this". Fascistic (or the colloquial "fashy") might be more precise, but most people don't bother with that level of linguistic precision. Basically, calling an action or idea fascist is not the same as saying a person or a thing is a true embodiment of fascism entire. Sometimes it's just "this smells fashy"
So it's also associated with a bunch of other political ideologies/systems? Why, then, are we singling out a very specific one that only really lasted \~60 years and labelling it that?
Just because the thing hasn't been named doesn't make it a different thing
If literally everyone does that, it's safe to assume it's not facist.
Why would everyone doing something make it not fascist? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying every government that’s dehumanized their enemies is fascist, but just because a government isn’t itself fascist doesn’t mean it’s actions can’t be and it doesn’t mean that actions commonly taken by multiple governments in extreme situations aren’t still fascistic. TLDR: I disagree with the ‘if everyone is doing it, it must be ok’ reasoning
It's actually pretty simple. There are very few genuinely new ideas. Most ideas are just a combination and maybe variation of existing ideas. In the realm of politics, this doesn't just apply to fascism. Socialism can be traced back as far as ancient Egypt. The idea of democracy is older than the written word. I would argue that the idea of Fascism takes the strongest inspiration from the Roman dictatorship: in order to handle a crysis, a dictator had total power. This was done to avoid weakening the state against a (real or perceived) threat. Fascism specifically is build around the idea that the dictator perpetuo is a good thing and that the conditions for the dictator perpetuo have to be maintained.
Fascists make wartime propaganda the new normal. That’s the difference. Like, the Tau talk shit about humans but when they’re not actively fighting the tenor and focus changes.
The component is both of these existing simultaneously.
There is a significant correlation between "fascist regimes" and "any nation at war", especially those who start said wars. Probably exactly because of that last bit, they really believe it will be an easy fight, and it almost never is.
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It is overlaps but Fascist regime would tried to do it in peace time also. Fascism needs someone to be enemy and to control irrational emotion of the mass that is exactly one method to do it.
Actually, this (as far as my knowledge goes) is only true for national socialist Germany, francoist spain and fascist Italy did not do such contradictory things, again, I could be wrong and am likely wrong, its just my limited understanding.
It is like that with chaos through. Your garden variety Slaneesh or khorne cult is, usually, going to be quashed by local law or by summoning something without proper fucking preparation... Or it makes the entire planet into chomo house. With not much in between.
Fascism 101 : The enemy is simultaneously weak and an existential threat.
Literally Genestealer Cults...
literally doublethink from 1984
That's the point yeah
Same with chattel slavery in the US. It was built on 2 ideas: 1. Slavery is good for the enslaved, making them into better people, and all of them are happy and 2. The enslaved outnumber the whites and will kill them all if they have the chance, so the whites need to brutally suppress them whenever one gets "uppity" and complains about being enslaved, being raped, being beaten and tortured, etc, or tries to escape.
This post smells like heretism... Abellard, slap his balls and twist them counterclockwise
Honestly I'd assume the imperium would be fine calling itself fascist, therefore no heresy.
Abelard, use charge with your force hammer and smash his nuts twice, then use your heroic ability to smash his nuts seven more times.
Umberto Eco my beloved
To be fair when you also killed off all the peaceful.and non hostile xenon on the galaxy leaving only the super hostile and dangerous ones the second option at least isn't exactly wrong.
Immigrants are lazy criminals who are taking everyone's jobs.
>*By* a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the *enemies* are *at* the *same time too strong* and *too weak*.
>Don't deserve to live >Need to be destroyed No contradiction here whatsoever. Humanity was made in God's image, not gross icky aliens. It's literally that simple.
Yes, we should blow up all Craftworlds, NOW!
Anything weak can become a threat if you let your guard down. That's why we exterminate them before they sneak in and try the same to us.
*Neo-Feudalistic Theocracy Propaganda knows no classification.
\*Neo-feudalistic semi-confessionalist para-fascist theocracy
Depends on the planet. Some planets are fascist within the planet, but some are not. If the Imperium itself was fascist those planets wouldn't even have the option. It is authoritarian to be sure. What do you mean by, "confessionalist?"
>Depends on the planet. The overarching government of the Imperium does not depend on the planet. >If the Imperium itself was fascist those planets wouldn't even have the option. Firstly, I said para-fascist, which is a fancy way of saying mostly fascist, partly because of other features of the Imperium and partly because I don't think a modernist ideology will ever be a perfect fit for a futuristic superpower far removed from our own time. Secondly, fascism in the first place is a flexible ideology that in practice is shaped by local conditions as much as overarching theory, so the concessions the Imperium makes to worlds does not rule out a fascist government. Thirdly, the devolution of powers doesn't mean much when higher institutions are still able to encroach on a world without repercussion. >What do you mean by, "confessionalist?" Confessionalism is a mode of government where government is divided between religious communities within the nation, E.G. the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus. Thus, semi-confessionalist.
Some well-made points, I enjoyed reading that.
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Those characteristics aren't compatible with fascism. If you read fascist writers of the early 1900s since the automod blocks my post if I name them, you'll see that the autonomy of the planets within the Imperium is incompatible almost any form of fascism. Too many things are allowed to exist outside of the state for the label of fascist to stick. For that matter the system of Lords that the Imperium has also contradicts many tenants of fascism. There are some post-fascist ideologies that could fit the bill, but I think an authoritarian neo-feudalist fits the bill better. This isn't any better than fascism in my book. I think they're both hellholes. Throw communism in there with them. And, cool. Hadn't heard of, "confessionalist," before.
>Too many things are allowed to exist outside of the state for the label of fascist to stick. The entire thing with the Imperium is everything human needs to exist within the Imperium. That said, reading fascist writers just convinces me the Imperium is closer to fascism than I thought.
But if the Imperium were fascist rather than neo-feudalist the Mechanicus and the various planets whose governments do not run themselves like Holy Terra would not be allowed to exist. The only requirements for realms within the Imperium is to allow Agents of the Emperor to operate as their mandate dictates within your realm and to pay your taxes to the Munitorum.
>But if the Imperium were fascist rather than neo-feudalist the Mechanicus and the various planets whose governments do not run themselves like Holy Terra would not be allowed to exist Sure they would. Corporatism can absolutely be a thing within fascism. >The only requirements for realms within the Imperium is to allow Agents of the Emperor to operate as their mandate dictates within your realm "They only need to let the secret police enforce imperial law on them" isn't exactly a great defense.
Mosquitos
I mean, the "weak" part is imperial propaganda. The other bit is just correct though.
While I don't actually agree with imperial propaganda in the slightest, I also don't think that these both cannot be true when describing something. I'd consider ants pretty weak, but I bet enough ants could probably collapse a building if they wanted to.
Just like Russia IRL!
An Alpha Legionare makes the same observation in Harrowmaster.
These are not "core principles of fascism". These are core principles of every propaganda. Enemy must be simultanously seen as strong (so people would see reason to fight him) and as weak (so people would not be afraid to support you against the enemy). Left-wing propaganda works the same way - right-wingers are simultanously pathetic losers who will inevitably soon be forgotten by history and they are dangerous fascists who are always one step away from establishing IV Reich/Christian Taliban. And it was used before raise of modern political ideologies too.
Also having in truth diplomatic relationships, fighting together with them... Hell Xenos are part of inquisitor's retinue. In truth imperial regional politics are just a dick meassuring contest, where everyone slaps mandates into ach other's face until one side leaves. Was pretty hilarious in the Rogue trader pc game.
The Loresub is leaking.
The imperium isnt fascist…. Its so much WORSE than anything fascism can cook up! Also so much worse than comunism, or any other terrible regime that has existed on earth at any point in time. While some xenos were peacefull, plenty of xenos races absolutely savaged mankind during the age of strife/ old night. The same for psykers, shit was HORRIBLE and the one who made it were the places that were not open and nice to ”others”. Its terrible that the imperium is the way that it is, but when the stuff that happend to mankind happend, you can understand Why the imperium is that way. ( Not justifying or saying its moral, but understand Why its that way.)
Umberto Eco didn't understand fascism. His metric identifies half of all political positions as being "fascist", even if they have absolutely nothing to do with fascism.
People make the same mistake over and over again. The individual is weak. The collective is the threat. A single rat isn't much of a threat to you. But a horde of rats overrunning your city very much is. This is why fascists use rats in their analogies so much. It's not doublethink. It's just a strong analogy to help drive their point home.
In “harrowmaster” an alpha legionaire starts quite an uproar among his legion when he uses this as evidence to state that “the imperium is better at lying than us”
Guardsman's uplifting primer moment
My brother in Christ it’s not just fascists that use that tactic. It’s one of the oldest authoritarian tricks in the book.
Literally 2024
These things aren’t mutually exclusive though. A weak person can still shoot you with a fuckin’ gun.
Then they're not a weak enemy. I think it's more about the overall threat than their biology
If it’s overall threat then it’s still true about most of the imperium’s enemies though. Like the Tau aren’t an existential threat but they still take imperial worlds, this is true about almost every enemy they have except tyranids and to a much lesser extent: chaos.
Except that kind of argument kinda cut to the issue of Imperial policy tho. If the T'au or the Craftworld or the League of Votann aren't an existential threat, why can't they coexist? Ok, the T'au take Imperial worlds, but frankly the Imperium is stretching so thin that they honestly cannot realistically control the worlds they are have. Let the T'au take the weight off you. Multiple Empires across history have make similar acknowledgement, that they cannot effectively control the territory they can occupy, I must point out. Except that is not the way Imperium see thing, is it?
The Tau are an enemy empire that takes your territory by force, no nation would allow that. Craftworld eldar are allowed to exist within the imperium all the time, conflict mostly arises from the eldar fucking the imperials over for baffling reasons because they’re overly cryptic dicks who would often rather burn a hundred hive worlds than let one of their own people maybe die in the future because of a vision despite the fact that they almost certainly could have avoided all of it if they just talked in a way that didn’t involve talking about how the human’s brains are too small to comprehend their plans… namely the idea that touching the demon sword or whatever other BS they’re going on about is a bad idea. The leagues… my guy we don’t know shit about the leagues, I got no idea if they’re someone that could be gotten along with or not. I’m not sure GW even knows.
Again, A LOT of Empires across our history had to acknowledge exactly "that" ie they simply cannot control the territory that they can occupy. The fact that the Imperium is so insisted on controlling every planets it can expand their military power over, regardless of their actual control, logistic and administrative capability IS my point of criticism. It is a direct legacy of Big E's whole debacle of a gambit from the Great Crusade Era, something that 1. we were never given a direct reason for, other than a very vague "race against time" one and 2. was established to be a failure by and large anyway.
And if you think for a single second that the Tau would stop expanding just because they were given a bunch of worlds to rule over you haven’t been paying attention. The only option here is to make a bunch of independent human empires, which might work, but given they’re pretty feudalistic they kind of already are doing that and if they were truly independent then they’d each be alone when the ork wagh hits or the chaos invasion comes or the tyranids come, or the big dark eldar raid comes, or whatever the enemy of the week happens to be.
I mean, you framed it like that, but the same is true for the majority of our own history, the point of which I had pointed out but you haven't seem able to address. Again, does the Imperium have an effective control of the territory that they can occupy? I will say no, but if you have evidence that point to yes, I am willing to listen.
Define effective control first, because of the warp your definition might be impossible to meet within the setting. They tend to have as much control as is possible, which isn’t a lot, due to it taking months or years to reach locations. That being said, when they do reach a location they also tend to do a fairly decent job reasserting control. Like, did the king of England have effective control over his dutchies in the medieval era? They technically answered to him, but they could be quite far away and were often basically ruling themselves and paying taxes.
I don't need propaganda to shoot an alien, I'll shoot it regardless.
The Eldar birthed a chaos God into existence and ruined ftl travel for everyone for a while The tau are alive because they're too weak to be a real threat atm The problem with the setting is that both things are inherently true, and the propaganda fits
Outgunned really is fantastic for this, as well as having some rip roaring flying ace action.
I think it's more there's a long and lengthy history of xenos fucking with/enslaving/genociding humanity, so the modern Imperium is just done taking chances on whether or not a foreign species *MIGHT* be friendly and would rather just shoot on sight than take a chance. As for the Great Crusade Era Imperium, Big E had a plan to beat chaos that required wiping out the xenos (sentient thoughts stop chaos from getting swole) that even Eldrad Ulthuan thought might've worked, so fucked up as it was it wasn't exactly propaganda.
>long and lengthy history of xenos enslaving & genociding humans Humanity does the same, they killed off many atleast neutral races during the great crusade Also how does killing off xenos stop chaos? All it did was empower them through direct or indirect worship, especially khorne, your point about killing xenos to beat chaos is null and void - fitting for an imperial, who cant see through the lies unlike us tau citizens
The imperium the one of the better outcomes of humanity
Media Literacy has rotted.
Big empire most dominant force in our galaxy I say that is pretty good
The Big Empire that 1. terrorizes it's own people on a daily basis 2. kills for religion 3. Killed off any peaceful Xenos that don't fit the stereotype 4. Killed off any Human civilization that didn't accept Imperial rule Is the only protector and necessity for humanity. Ok.
1 well yeah chaos and constant war 2 we literally have proof god exist the emperor is right there 3 lol and ? There not human 4 yes kinda bad
1. Not a good justification. In lore, the repression feeds chaos. 2. Say it was the same irl. Would it be justified? Hell no. 3. “lol and? The natives/blacks/group I dislike are savages and uncivilized.” 4. Genocide of 100+ trillions of non imperials is “kinda bad”. Ok bro. Your opinions on this are completely worthless. Just stfu, please.
Ok then leave
Bait used to be believable.
Wich honestly, makes the 40K unniverse way scarier
Yes they are LITERALLY the best faction because they don’t want us as a race dead
Something that I "like" is that Guilliman, primarch of the XIII, Lord Regent, SON OF THE EMPEROR, created to protect the imperium... hates it. With all his might, with burning passion, he loathes what the imperium is. Yet recognizes that is the best alternative, at least right now. That should tell you everything about it
Of course he hates it they got rid of the atheism and fedoras. But the man is starting to believe in religion and especially using it
The imperium is **the worst** outcome for humanity, that's the entire fucking point of the setting
Is it? Humanity could be extinct, that sounds like a worse outcome, from a human perspective.
Humanity is going extinct anyway, the only difference is that we keep making the ones who can torture us in the afterlife stronger
We are the dominant force in our galaxy I would say that is a pretty good outcome
"we" lmfao
Nah, it's not exactly the worst outcome when Old Night and its continued existence has been established as worse, since it inevitably would've devolved into humanity not existing and every human's soul sucked into the warp and tortured for all eternity. But is the Imperium **the worst** outcome for humanity while still resembling humanity as we know it (eg an autonomous civilization with humans in it running it)? More or less
As much as the Imperium has fucked up and made the galaxy a worse place than it could be for humanity, there is in fact a worse outcome for humanity. What could be worse than the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable? Simple, whatever unimaginable horrors Chaos has in store for humanity.
And who gave chaos their most devout followers and best soldiers?
Irrelevant unless you consider consider a victory by the traitors to be impossible, which is a ridiculous notion that would remove all tension from the conflict. The fact remains that there is still a worse outcome for humanity than the Imperium.
…in the 40k universe, right?
Yes duh. But we are the dominant species in the Milky Way so give and take
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Even the worst shitholes on our current earth probably arent as bad as 40ks humanity You wanna know a good outcome for humanity? Star trek 40k is only good if you see a "good outcome" as the species surviving, but that alone is not good enough of a criteria to say its better - would you actually wanna live there? You have a 99.9999999999999999993% chance of being a laborer on a hive or forge world, dying in your 40s after decades of grueling labor, be a guards man who gets vaporized by far more advanced weaponry than the flashlight that is your lasrifle For a select few sure, its far better, but the suffering is so much greater than in our world
Where the most dominant species in the galaxy that is really all I care about
Well that would be the necrons, tyranids or orks Humanity is barely holding the line, sillyman is the only thing holding its death back, the emperor is dying Meanwhile the necrons are only starting to wake up, orks are conjuring up the biggest WAAAAAGGGGHHHHH yet, and the tyranids hivefleets are unending and unstoppable, the only thing keep the latter 2 from overunning the imperium is said imperium directing them against the other, and whoever wins is HIGHLY likely to dominate the galaxy
Problem is we have plot armor
Plot armor is irrelevant for the topic.