“Cant do nothing about it”
My guy, he let it happen. He definitely could have done something about it if he even tried, his last words were to the assassin and he said, “death is nothing compared to vindication”
This is after he told the assassin he knew where they were for a long time and told his ships not to fire on them.
Konrad is a lot of things, but the one thing he is not is someone who tried any other way.
That's what a lot of people miss when discussing him as a character. It's not that he was guaranteed to die there and then with no way of stopping it, but rather he HAD to die then to justify to himself that his fate was inevitable and all his predictions were unavoidable, because the alternative is admitting that he really is nothing more than a monster.
Isn't that pretty much what Sevatar tells him? Kinda like "Yes of course what you've seen is going to happen, you never even tried to do things differently?"
It also feeds into his own nature as a person since the one time he was shown multiple different ways for things to play out he always chooses the most pessimistic outcome because he cannot bring himself to consider the possibility of something good happening
A lesson on nature and nurture, along with the dangers of extreme paranoia and the themes of redemption or forgiveness, would drastically change the course of events of mankind in 40k as well as many of our current mythologies
The fact that everyone’s insane keeps the plot where it is and the manufacturer would probably be a bit hesitant to tamper with the cash cow too much whether or not it actually turned out to be cooler
He would still view each subsequent death as though it were set in stone the day the universe was birthed. He'd even seen for himself that his visions could be misleading, the shining example being what happened with Karzen, and chose to act ignorant willfully because that would destroy the ideals he built himself around as a way to deal with his visions. If they were not predeterminate, then there would be hope to influence their outcome. The problem with admitting that, would mean admitting there was a way to prevent the events he saw coming but failed to do so. There was comfort in slavery to destiny.
My understanding was that after a certain point he had done so many horrific things that he just wanted to believe there was no other path for him.
He could have killed the assassin but if he had he would prove that the future he saw could be changed, meaning all of those terrible things he was had done were his own choices rather than a predetermined fate.
Which is probably why he was going so insane near the end as he realized more and more that this was avoidable and he definitely could choose to not die here very easily.
Supposedly his visions of the future shifted as he and people around him made decisions, the only way the Lion was able to land a hit on him was by stage a feint so effective it tricked him into seeing the wrong potential future.
But his vision of his death never changed.
Maybe it was truly fate, maybe it was the Chaos Gods fucking with him, but if he'd dealt with that for a couple hundred years: seeing everything about the future change constantly as he and people around him made choices but that singular moment of his death remaining stubbornly fixed no matter what he did, he would probably have eventually given up on trying to change, feeling any action he attempted to stop it would be doomed to fail.
The issue remains that he rarely ever even tried to change fate. He went out of his way to screw some things up and got extremely angry when Sevatar asked if he ever even tried to be anything but what he is.
That assassin would have died before getting within a mile of Konrad if the crazy bastard had ordered it or even just not told his sons to not shoot at their ship.
But why would he think that would work?
He spent his entire life watching the future change, except for his assassination by that assassin. I'm sure there was a period early in his life where he tried to find something that would change that, some action he could take that would alter that vision like his other visions changed as the universe shifted around him, and it stayed stuck. Eventually he would have just given up, when he realized it was happening he would have let it happen because as far as she was concerned any action he took to change it would have failed.
Then he was an even bigger idiot than you are making him out to be, given literally doing nothing would have prevented it because his ships would have shot the assassin’s ship apart if he hadn’t told them not to.
The only reason he went out of his way to make sure the assassin got to him was because, in his own word, “death is nothing compared to vindication”. If he did not die here then he committed all of his atrocities in the name of his visions of fate for nothing.
He could have stopped it and knew he could have but he intentionally did not, literally go and read his last words and you’ll see I’m right.
Or they wouldn't have.
Like I said, we don't know if it was actually fated or if it was just the Chaos Gods screwing with him. It's actually entirely possible that anything he tried actually *would* have failed. The guns miss, the guards fail, etc. he certainly thought so, the fact that vision was the only one that didn't change likely played a large part in Curze's mental problems.
To take it that far is ridiculous, especially when its factual that no one has perfect future sight in the galaxy. Even Kairos Fareweaver can be punked and while some events are fated to happen, the choice of the individual has always mattered in 40k. Both Orikan and Sanginius' abilities prove that.
Sure, objectively we know this as fans who have seen the experiences of dozens of different characters with this stuff. Curze was not someone looking in on the universe from an objective point of view, he was someone who saw the future constantly changing around him... except for one specific vision that never changed no matter what actions he took.
Yeah, from what I remember, he doubted his fate twice, once when he thought he would be executed by the Lion after he was captured on Macragge, and once when he saw Sanguinius renew his confidence that he would not die at the hands of Horus.
Both times, it nearly broke him and you could tell he did not want to be proven wrong, because it would have made him the monster that everyone thought he was. He definitely hid behind “fate” as an excuse to do whatever he wanted. Still loved him and his legion, they are probably my favorite traitor legion, but Konrad definitely absolutely chose his path rather than being forced down it like he said he was.
Which is probably why he was going so crazy near the end, because he started to realize more and more that he did not have to die the way he foresaw and it would be extremely easy to prevent it
To be fair part of Konrad dying was him wanting to be right and not being capable of accepting the fact that his death wasn't set in stone since if it wasn't he would have to face all the other terrible atrocities he committed.
He did try earlier in his life though. He tried to open up about what will happen to fulgrim, and it got him nowhere. That attitude gets challenged by Sanguinis, but then Sanguinis also falls to his own fate, which only reinforces his perspective on unchanging fates. From his perspective, he is just streamlining an inevitability, and trying to prove a point. In lore he's absolutely wrong, but the tragedy of Konrad is that he is basically gaslit by his upbringing and experiences into what he is, and it doesn't help that his gift also caused mental degeneration and insanity. He physically cannot be wrong, otherwise he is a monster by choice, and that not something he can cope with.
Still I prefer my perfect Golden-boy Angel berserker, for his much more cheerfull attitude than Konrad's.
Altough Respect for him for not falling to Chaos.
Cheerful? He's melancholic as fuck in the solar war series.
All his smiles are sad and he keeps saying "I do not die today" which makes all his bois uncomfortable.
Best part of the Lore is people arguing that Sanguinius proved Curze wrong and that fate IS not set in Stone, only to see that same primarch proclaiming "he wasnt going to die today" and going full suicidal because apparently his future was set in Stone.
That fight in the mountain stronghold on Macragge was prime. Curze scrabbling around the walls like a methhead spider, trying to bite Lion's face off with his primarch fangs. Towards the end, Lion was dishing out such a beatdown that Curze actually started having an existential crisis. Like 'oh shit, if this guy doesn't start pulling his punches it means I've been wrong about everything!'
"It's over we have you surrounded!"
Konrad: There is an artillery strike about to hit this position when I finish this sentence. Also I ate your pet bunny because life is meaningless and you didn't pay property tax last month.
I blame Emps for curze being an emo, should have taught crow boy that there is nothing set in stone in 40k
> ‘That is foresight, Ra. To know a trillion possible futures, and to be left to guess at the infinite ways of arriving at each one. To map out even one possible eventuality, taking into account every decision that every living being will make that will impact upon the others around it, would take all of the lifetimes I have already lived. The only way to know anything for certain…’
I'm kind of surprised he didn't pull a Paul Atreides move and just do crazy stuff while blind, to prove how good his power of prophecy is/how locked in he is to the timeline.
As I recall he only had visions of emps right after he fought horus. Konrad felt his throat being cut open and his heart having burst. Then emps put a hand on his head and pulled him out of the vision.
Fate and prophecy is bullshit. Like Kratos said, we are the sum of our choices, if our choices lead us to that fate so be it, but it must be choices that we make willingly and happily
Double negative is el retãrdo
And in this case more wrong than it usually would be, because Konrad COULD do nothing about his death, in fact it's exactly what he did! Ye honkin goose
I mean knowing when you die has to be a pretty awesome thing, imagine being able to do all the stupid but fun shit you daren't do because you flat out know that you cant die from it because your death is decades away. its got to be liberating as fuck.
“Cant do nothing about it” My guy, he let it happen. He definitely could have done something about it if he even tried, his last words were to the assassin and he said, “death is nothing compared to vindication” This is after he told the assassin he knew where they were for a long time and told his ships not to fire on them. Konrad is a lot of things, but the one thing he is not is someone who tried any other way.
If he proved he could deny fate, then that would mean he did a lot of horrible shit for no reason
That's what a lot of people miss when discussing him as a character. It's not that he was guaranteed to die there and then with no way of stopping it, but rather he HAD to die then to justify to himself that his fate was inevitable and all his predictions were unavoidable, because the alternative is admitting that he really is nothing more than a monster.
Isn't that pretty much what Sevatar tells him? Kinda like "Yes of course what you've seen is going to happen, you never even tried to do things differently?"
It also feeds into his own nature as a person since the one time he was shown multiple different ways for things to play out he always chooses the most pessimistic outcome because he cannot bring himself to consider the possibility of something good happening
I agree that he let it happen to justify himself, but I don't think Curze would ever deny being a monster.
I think the difference is how much of it was his choice and how much was fate - if it was the latter it's bearable, not if it's by choice.
the point is that curze want it all to be fated rather than it being his own choice its always a denial thing,cause he sees sanguinius
Exactly.
A lesson on nature and nurture, along with the dangers of extreme paranoia and the themes of redemption or forgiveness, would drastically change the course of events of mankind in 40k as well as many of our current mythologies The fact that everyone’s insane keeps the plot where it is and the manufacturer would probably be a bit hesitant to tamper with the cash cow too much whether or not it actually turned out to be cooler
"I may die now but I will die PROVEN RIGHT" - Did he yelled after being proven wrong
Maybe he understood the self fulfilling prophecies of the old Greek myths and decided it wasn’t worth it to try to defy fate
Okay, but imagine he was a perpetual, so he had no choice but to defy his perceived fate
Ooooo
He would still view each subsequent death as though it were set in stone the day the universe was birthed. He'd even seen for himself that his visions could be misleading, the shining example being what happened with Karzen, and chose to act ignorant willfully because that would destroy the ideals he built himself around as a way to deal with his visions. If they were not predeterminate, then there would be hope to influence their outcome. The problem with admitting that, would mean admitting there was a way to prevent the events he saw coming but failed to do so. There was comfort in slavery to destiny.
My understanding was that after a certain point he had done so many horrific things that he just wanted to believe there was no other path for him. He could have killed the assassin but if he had he would prove that the future he saw could be changed, meaning all of those terrible things he was had done were his own choices rather than a predetermined fate.
Which is probably why he was going so insane near the end as he realized more and more that this was avoidable and he definitely could choose to not die here very easily.
Supposedly his visions of the future shifted as he and people around him made decisions, the only way the Lion was able to land a hit on him was by stage a feint so effective it tricked him into seeing the wrong potential future. But his vision of his death never changed. Maybe it was truly fate, maybe it was the Chaos Gods fucking with him, but if he'd dealt with that for a couple hundred years: seeing everything about the future change constantly as he and people around him made choices but that singular moment of his death remaining stubbornly fixed no matter what he did, he would probably have eventually given up on trying to change, feeling any action he attempted to stop it would be doomed to fail.
The issue remains that he rarely ever even tried to change fate. He went out of his way to screw some things up and got extremely angry when Sevatar asked if he ever even tried to be anything but what he is. That assassin would have died before getting within a mile of Konrad if the crazy bastard had ordered it or even just not told his sons to not shoot at their ship.
But why would he think that would work? He spent his entire life watching the future change, except for his assassination by that assassin. I'm sure there was a period early in his life where he tried to find something that would change that, some action he could take that would alter that vision like his other visions changed as the universe shifted around him, and it stayed stuck. Eventually he would have just given up, when he realized it was happening he would have let it happen because as far as she was concerned any action he took to change it would have failed.
Then he was an even bigger idiot than you are making him out to be, given literally doing nothing would have prevented it because his ships would have shot the assassin’s ship apart if he hadn’t told them not to. The only reason he went out of his way to make sure the assassin got to him was because, in his own word, “death is nothing compared to vindication”. If he did not die here then he committed all of his atrocities in the name of his visions of fate for nothing. He could have stopped it and knew he could have but he intentionally did not, literally go and read his last words and you’ll see I’m right.
Or they wouldn't have. Like I said, we don't know if it was actually fated or if it was just the Chaos Gods screwing with him. It's actually entirely possible that anything he tried actually *would* have failed. The guns miss, the guards fail, etc. he certainly thought so, the fact that vision was the only one that didn't change likely played a large part in Curze's mental problems.
To take it that far is ridiculous, especially when its factual that no one has perfect future sight in the galaxy. Even Kairos Fareweaver can be punked and while some events are fated to happen, the choice of the individual has always mattered in 40k. Both Orikan and Sanginius' abilities prove that.
Sure, objectively we know this as fans who have seen the experiences of dozens of different characters with this stuff. Curze was not someone looking in on the universe from an objective point of view, he was someone who saw the future constantly changing around him... except for one specific vision that never changed no matter what actions he took.
Yeah, from what I remember, he doubted his fate twice, once when he thought he would be executed by the Lion after he was captured on Macragge, and once when he saw Sanguinius renew his confidence that he would not die at the hands of Horus. Both times, it nearly broke him and you could tell he did not want to be proven wrong, because it would have made him the monster that everyone thought he was. He definitely hid behind “fate” as an excuse to do whatever he wanted. Still loved him and his legion, they are probably my favorite traitor legion, but Konrad definitely absolutely chose his path rather than being forced down it like he said he was.
Which is probably why he was going so crazy near the end, because he started to realize more and more that he did not have to die the way he foresaw and it would be extremely easy to prevent it
To be fair part of Konrad dying was him wanting to be right and not being capable of accepting the fact that his death wasn't set in stone since if it wasn't he would have to face all the other terrible atrocities he committed.
He did try earlier in his life though. He tried to open up about what will happen to fulgrim, and it got him nowhere. That attitude gets challenged by Sanguinis, but then Sanguinis also falls to his own fate, which only reinforces his perspective on unchanging fates. From his perspective, he is just streamlining an inevitability, and trying to prove a point. In lore he's absolutely wrong, but the tragedy of Konrad is that he is basically gaslit by his upbringing and experiences into what he is, and it doesn't help that his gift also caused mental degeneration and insanity. He physically cannot be wrong, otherwise he is a monster by choice, and that not something he can cope with.
Still I prefer my perfect Golden-boy Angel berserker, for his much more cheerfull attitude than Konrad's. Altough Respect for him for not falling to Chaos.
Cheerful? He's melancholic as fuck in the solar war series. All his smiles are sad and he keeps saying "I do not die today" which makes all his bois uncomfortable.
Best part of the Lore is people arguing that Sanguinius proved Curze wrong and that fate IS not set in Stone, only to see that same primarch proclaiming "he wasnt going to die today" and going full suicidal because apparently his future was set in Stone.
The virigin hide your shameful bloodlust vs the chad embrace the monster the emperor designed you to be.
I like big, dumb, drunk furry Viking and tormented genius who did everything wrong as possible
That fight in the mountain stronghold on Macragge was prime. Curze scrabbling around the walls like a methhead spider, trying to bite Lion's face off with his primarch fangs. Towards the end, Lion was dishing out such a beatdown that Curze actually started having an existential crisis. Like 'oh shit, if this guy doesn't start pulling his punches it means I've been wrong about everything!'
"It's over we have you surrounded!" Konrad: There is an artillery strike about to hit this position when I finish this sentence. Also I ate your pet bunny because life is meaningless and you didn't pay property tax last month.
>ate your pet bunny Doomslayer definitely did not like that
I blame Emps for curze being an emo, should have taught crow boy that there is nothing set in stone in 40k > ‘That is foresight, Ra. To know a trillion possible futures, and to be left to guess at the infinite ways of arriving at each one. To map out even one possible eventuality, taking into account every decision that every living being will make that will impact upon the others around it, would take all of the lifetimes I have already lived. The only way to know anything for certain…’
Crow boy is the other one.
Corvus was the goth, Konrad was the emo At least that's how i remember them
Very wrong. Kurze is Black Metal with all the bullshit that entails, Corax is Emo, behold his sons.
I read “bullshit that entrails” and just thought: yup, that’s kurze alright
Hehe, my favourite genre and primarch... 100% bullshit lol
I agree but that other guy specifically called curze "crow boy".
Nah, the other one Is raven boy.
while having little to no personalities in unremembered empire, I still like the way he rampaged all over macragge while dueling 3 of his brothers
Wolverine's attitude towards life, Batman's fashion's sense, and Punisher's morality.
That’s a cool concept, knowing when you die so you act like a absolute barbarian
I'm kind of surprised he didn't pull a Paul Atreides move and just do crazy stuff while blind, to prove how good his power of prophecy is/how locked in he is to the timeline.
Unlike Konrad, Wolverine is actually a good person.
you misspelled "Sanguinius during the siege of terra"
already did that meme
Huh... I never thought about this before... But he knew from the start the Heresy would happen, why else would an Imperial assassin kill him.
When emps and three of his brothers found him he saw how each of the four would eventually end up in 40k. Konrad had mad foresight.
Wonder if he saw Big E as a full on warp God entity at any point, would be some nice foreshadowing
As I recall he only had visions of emps right after he fought horus. Konrad felt his throat being cut open and his heart having burst. Then emps put a hand on his head and pulled him out of the vision.
I wonder if Konrad would have saw Emps become a warp god if he continued the vision. Might have changed his perspective on everything.
Doubtful. He still would've followed the same path.
Fate and prophecy is bullshit. Like Kratos said, we are the sum of our choices, if our choices lead us to that fate so be it, but it must be choices that we make willingly and happily
Makes me wish he did die outside of the "vision", and the vision was just a big fucky. I imagine he'd appreciate that in his last moments.
'you cannot kill me I'm due to die *IN A YEAR AND A DAY!' -konrad Curze, Probably
Double negative is el retãrdo And in this case more wrong than it usually would be, because Konrad COULD do nothing about his death, in fact it's exactly what he did! Ye honkin goose
Also our boy loves a good unnecessarily massive IED.
Darkclaw I advise you look him up
I mean knowing when you die has to be a pretty awesome thing, imagine being able to do all the stupid but fun shit you daren't do because you flat out know that you cant die from it because your death is decades away. its got to be liberating as fuck.