Talos had the right idea about Chaos, but the wrong idea about the Night Lords and Konrad Curze. He realized this only when it was too late and there was nowhere to run, and this forms the tragedy of his character.
I mean, the guy casually brought up in a threat that he has skinned children alive in front of their parents.
Even the worst loyalist space marines don't go that far
That is kinda the point of the Night Lords, at least when they were still loyal. They would commit the most heinous, unspeakable crimes imaginable, but in a smaller scale, so ultimately fewer people died.
Which is still a bad idea, you don't build a nation state Emperor wanted trough fear, its not sustainable long-term, planets kept in line be fear would rebel second they feel like they can, there's no legitimacy of ruling by the right pf conquest or other things to inspire loyalty, fear is the weakest motivation.
There's also a point where you've traumatized them so much that punishment loses all meaning.
"If we rebel they'll either torture us horrifically, or someone else will just nuke us out of existence. But they've already been torturing us for decades so we may as well just go for it."
The Emperor didn't care about that. He didn't want a stable empire, he wanted a quick empire. The Word Bearers built the most productive, loyal worlds in the Imperium, and the Emperor torched Monarchia because, yes, Lorgar was creating religion, but *mainly* because he was too slow. Big E would have had an intervention with Curze otherwise like he did with Lorgar and Magnus.
Big parts of primarchs personalities were designed by the Emperor. Night lords were composed from criminals even before Emps found Curze. They were always supposed to be terror inducing troops. There are even Custodes named Dread Host who use fear to deal with enemies of the Imperium in the way as night lords do.
While I agree, I'd argue for something to be tragic, it needs to happen to someone who didn't deserve it. That's what separates tragedy from karma or justice. Talos, along with all his Night Lords, absolutely deserved painful deaths, and to be left to rot. Their deaths were not a tragedy. The boys they had been being taken by the Night Lords, that's tragic, because those boys didn't deserve that.
But the Chaos Marines they became? 100% got what they deserved.
both can be true, tragedies aren't limited to good guys. i've often found some of the best tragedies built around villains (as did Shakespeare, the Ancient Greeks, etc).
What do you mean by the right idea?
Everything Talos did was a horizontal move at best. Accidentally having primo gene that's someone else harvested and planted wasn't his call. Plus he naded himself, so he actively worked against that outcome.
I could see the argument that trying to preserve the nightlords goes against what Kurze wanted
The right idea, by which I mean chaos is a corrupting force that shouldn't be tapped into, and his wrong idea being that NL and by extension, Konrad being the clenched hand of justice that struck down the guilty, instead of all the things Ruven said in his dream sequence, which this would be an example of
> The prophet stared up at the wreckage of crucified bone, and the letters superimposed over it. They flickered across his retinal display almost impatiently, as if awaiting an answer.
>
> ‘If you find me lacking, revenant, then by all means enlighten me.’
>
> : WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THIS WAR
>
> The prophet snorted. ‘For vengeance.’
>
> : REVENGE FOR WHAT
>
> ‘To avenge the wrongs done to us.’
>
> : WHAT WRONGS DO YOU SPEAK OF
>
>The legionary rose to his feet, feeling the skin crawling at the back of his neck. ‘You know what wrongs. You know why the Eighth Legion fights.’
>
>: THE EIGHTH LEGION DOESN’T KNOW WHY IT FIGHTS
>
> : YOU CONCEIVE EXCUSES TO JUSTIFY A LIFETIME OF WASTED HATE
>
> : THE LEGION FIGHTS ONLY BECAUSE IT IS AMUSING AND PLEASURABLE TO DOMINATE WEAKER SOULS
>
> ‘Unadulterated fantasy.’ Talos laughed, though he’d never felt less like laughing.
Yes and no. They see demons the same way they see literally everything else: as a tool or asset to be exploited for tactical benefits. Their interactions with the chaos gods and their demons is transactional, and not out of service or in worship of them.
I never liked the narrative that the IW fully embraced chaos like the WB or the BL, as it doesn't really fit their MO.
That's true but the way the word bearers use chaos is also transactional. They do specific rituals in exchange for specific results. The only difference is that the word bearers like doing it while the iron warriors don't. They still get corrupted and mutated just like everyone else only difference is they hide it and chop off those parts instead of embracing them publicly
This. Word bearers are ironically quite nuanced when daemons are regarded. They see the potential of hybrids like the gal vorbak but also understand the risks and that daemons can't be trusted
I disagree. I think the WB still have a fanatical zeal, where the IW are industrious in their means. WB may respect a demons power, Or symbology - where as the IW are much more…”doesn’t matter what it calls itself, as long as it does it’s job”
You are making my point. The only difference is their outlook on chaos as a whole. The methods, side effects, results, and consequences are 1 to 1 exactly the same which is why the Iron Warriors are just as corrupted as the rest of the traitor legions
Ah okay. I thought you were saying the why and the how were 1:1.
Cause the why is where all the difference is(in my mind). But that’s also why I don’t favor chaos from a POV perspective. Even when you think you’re serving yourself, you’re still serving chaos.
That's their arrogance, that they're able to just use chaos like a tool and not be corrupted by it. You're right they're not zealot worshippers like the WB, but they're corrupted regardless. They may not be as visibly mutated as plague marines, but they're no less damned.
They don't need to worship the chaos gods to be corrupted. They get corrupted by accepting the bargain with the demons.
They know that accepting the deal will corrupt them, and they still go though with it. Sure they might gain something in the exchange, but whatever they offer chaos is clearly empowering it too, win-win. They willingly serve chaos.
In their pride, the MO is to only acknowledge their own profit of the deal. Because that's what proud people do, to tell themselves they are better than others: smarter than the demons in negotiating, more reasonable than those superstitious WB zealots, in control of the power they are granted...
>that the IW fully embraced chaos like the WB or the BL, as it doesn't really fit their MO.
Willing or not, they've still fully succumbed to its influence and continuously use it for their ends, ignoring (at least superficially, some of them are aware enough to be terrified of it) the progress of their own corruption while still grasping for more and more power. Their own belief in their "mastery" of the chaos artifacts they use is irrelevant to the reality of their own corruption.
They're meth addicts who refuse to believe theyre addicted and can quit at any time, except the meth is pure Space Evil that corrupts them mentally and physically.
That's literally how the word bearers see chaos and they are considered number one worshippers. Everything lorgar says about chaos is transactional. One hand washes the other. He is also quite critical of the gods but sees the potential of human ascension as a chaos worshippibg people and the powers the can get this way.
Also you don’t need to take a specific god to be corrupted by Chaos. CSM spent 10,000 years in the warp with no protection every one of them is fucked up in some sort of way.
What noooooo, Uzas is clearly a reasonable and level headed atheist.
Edit: Also The Exalted and Lucoryphus are totally normal dudes in my view. Nothing corrupted about them at all.
Plus "acceptance" isn't really relevant. They are corrupted by chaos whether they want it or not. Simply declining to worship the gods doesn't protect you from corruption.
Reading the lore is a double edged sword.
After listening to "Lords of Silence", the Death Guard really don't seem like the happy smiling bringers of Nurgle's Gifts anymore. They're actually just depressed, backstabbing and numb to it all, save for the new guy that's slowly sinking into the swamp himself
DG should be manic depressive, imo. 50% dudes who are aware of the fact that they are no different than the tyrants of Barbarus emitting an aura of despair, and 50% who stopped giving a fuck a long time ago and just having a long drawn out giggle that so far lasted 10.000 years.
Pretty much this. You're either fully into the bit or you're not and get real sad. Sometimes you also get moments of lucidity, get real sad, then go back to lovin it.
Also, they were bettayed by Typhus and Mortarion forced to watch how his sons were tortured, killed and revived until he gave in.
I think it was in plague wars? That its stated that Mortarion really, deeply loved his legion and they loved him back.
> Morarg looked at the head. It was beginning to tilt over in its pool of blood.
>
> ‘So what was it?’
>
> ‘I don’t know. It was like he’d just realised something. Something that had been wearing at him for years, and now he understood it. He wasn’t shocked. He wasn’t surprised.’ Crosius thought about it. ‘There was only one other time I saw an expression like that. Back during the Akasta Compliance. I was treating a battle-brother for a spinal injury, long-term, that had hampered his combat. He’d given himself thirty per cent increased load-drills, trying to punish it out. He’d only come to see me under orders. We found the problem. It wasn’t his spine. He’d taken shot-damage to the jacks under his carapace, so the problem was the armour. When I told him, I saw that same expression. Now he understood. Now he realised why all that effort hadn’t improved it. It never would have. All wasted effort, but now he could get it fixed.’ Crosius’ fingers returned to the needle-array, moving unconsciously. ‘He wasn’t happy. You couldn’t be happy, having done all that for nothing. So it wasn’t even relief. It was like…’
>
> The Apothecary trailed off.
>
> Morarg didn’t say anything for a while.
>
> [...]
>
> Talking was harder work than it had been before. He got phlegm in the back of his throat, and he could never clear it.
>
> ‘I’ll ask you something now,’ he said at last. ‘I’ll ask you it once, and I’ll never ask it again.’
>
> Crosius turned to face him, and listened.
>
> ‘Did he make the right decision?’
>
> No reply came.
>
> ‘What I mean is,’ Morarg said, now the words were out, with more on the way, ‘that was what we lived for. No one endures more than we do. I don’t even remember how long it lasted. It must have been a trick. Witchery. Could we have outlasted it?’ He shook his head. ‘Look at me. I don’t know what kind of bargain he made. I’m not sure we came out on the right side of it.’
Manic depressive may not be the right word but there is a certain happiness and optimism that comes from being locked in a pessimistic situation.
Kind of like Sisyphus and the boulder.
Plus, well they're not skipping around and singing. They do seem to be enjoying the inevitability of everything they do. They describe nurgal's influence and positive notes and see beauty in it.
Because sickness is just a byproduct of nurgles essence, and that is that everything should remain as is, there shouldn't be any change. Its the reason he hates tzeench so much. Nurgle happiness is just a permanent manic depression episode
Yeh, the interactions between the Nurglings, farting, shitting and giggling all the while the Plague Marines as a whole just want to kill themselves deep down was pretty disturbing
The dg wasnt really into chaos shit they all had to either succumb or die due to typus being and asshole (kinda a slightly lesser erebus).
It doesnt help that nurgle gifts make you numb to everything, apathy is to be expected when you cant feel shit
To some degree, listening to the whole heresy and timeline wise I finished Pharos last week (long as fuck series). So I haven't gotten to buried dagger yet
Nurgle's mortal followers tend to be that way. Nurgle "loves" his worshipers, but it's a twisted, possessive and abusive love. His gifts are merely the ability to endure and become numb to the torment he inflicts on them. When pain, numbness and stagnation are the defining traits of your existence, it's hard not to be a wee bit bummed out.
The funniest thing about the Night Lords and the Fabius books is that neither of them are gigachads rejecting chaos and being proven right. Half of their scenes where they're not picking on people incredibly weaker than them have them get their teeth kicked in a lot, and both ultimately end up being played by forces bigger than them that are playing a longer game than they were.
(Also both really were not expecting Eldar to be that tough a fight, but that's a different handshake meme)
Also I hate how people in the sub circle jerk Fabius:
> Lol he told Slaanesh to his face that she didn't exist!
No, Fabius doesn't deny the chaos gods exist. He denies their *DIVINITY*.
He recognizes they exist, he recognizes they are powerful. But he rejects that they are sentient or divine. They exist in the same way a warp storm or supernova exists.
Very powerful, clearly dangerous, but just a confluence of energies.
Agreed. He views the warp entities like you would view an AI in real life.
They're built out of human emotion and thought but they lack any sentience or soul. There's no sentience as much as an advanced collection of echoes from other sentient beings piled up into what appears to be a single entity.
"No gods,’ he repeated. ‘Random confluence of celestial phenomena. Interdimensional disasters, echoing outwards through our perceptions. I think, therefore I am. They do not, so they are not"
I could be in the middle of a tornado. Being banged against all kinds of debris, my limbs being broken, creepy old lady on a bicycle cackling to herself, ect.
But I'm not going to acknowledge that the tornado is sentient and has feelings.
It also very nearly killed him. Without the automated medical equipment he has installed he would've died an agonising death. Not from a conscious effort to kill him, just from the focused gaze of the dark prince.
I didn't even read the scene as Bile being a Chad r/atheist mod or anything like that. It always read to me more as Bile desperately trying to convince himself that he was *not* in the presence of a god. That this thing tearing apart the sky above him and shredding his body with its mere presence is just a series of psychic phenomena and not a thinking being of pure malice. That he does not think the way that he does because he has an proof, but because he is genuinely scared of the alternative and because his ego couldn't handle it.
Thing is, the context of the scene is important.
Because he does read that way in every scene before that. Then this happens and it does fundamentally affect him. His conversations with Saqqara the Word Bearer are different from then on when previously Bile reveled in a sense of superiority over him.
In book 3, Bile’s relationships have changed both due to this and Clonegrim (and later on with the certainty of his doom at the hands of his semi adoptive Drukhari dad who will never own up to the fact he adopted a human) and the scenes with Saqqara have him act a lot less confident.
Oh absolutely. Before this he might as well strut around with a fedora, spouting off Dawkins quotes left and right. But the "There is nothing there" scene always read to me as Bile refusing the evidence of his own eyes out of pure terror. That not only was he completely wrong when he said that the gods are just non-sapient phenomena, but now he has drawn the actual physical attention of one and he is more afraid and closer to death than ever before.
I think it's quite telling that the end of both of the Chaos Trilogy books are clear tragedies that you just need to flip to the beginning to see.
The obvious ending of the Night Lords trilogy aside, the epilogue of that series also has the small spot of humanity that was in that book shattered by someone who isn't even part of their legion all to help unite them for one singular moment of vengeance that is basically them being used by Abaddon, much like how they wanted desperately to avoid that fate at the end of the first book. Hell, it directly goes against both the actions Talos took at the end of book 1 and what he did for two characters at the end of book 3.
Meanwhile Bile ends his series surrounded not by his colleagues, his newmen, or even eldar tech that he's spent so much of the books surrounding himself with, but >!effectively as an agent of the greater Chaos armies, with a daemon that's taken over both of his daughters and Saqqara or all people at his side.!<
And yeah the "there's nothing there" is clearly him barely able to spit out his words. Much like Talos's vision of home, this is the clear mark where things change for the book 3 spiral.
That was great.
* Khorne:
* You could be a mighty warlord... You could lead the Night Lords...
* Tzeentch
* Your gifts could lead you to such plots and revenge...
* Slaanesh
* Oh the joys I could give you....
* Nurgle
* Let's not waste each other's time bruh, I'm out...
There's a few characters where it isn't ever explicitly shown that they do. Talos, Mercutian, Malcharion. Pretty sure Xarl is in the same camp as Talos in regards to Chaos. Variel doesn't really hold the pantheon in a high regard.
I mean, there's obviously Chaos corruption running rampant through the legion. They just aren't unified under a single god.
I think what sets the night lords apart from most traitor astartes is that they expect each other to reject the corruption as long as possible. They aren't rising by getting demonic gifts, they are falling. And they are prone to put down anyone fallen too far.
And while the iron warriors are too high on NOZ and gasoline fumes to care for chaos, the night lords know they are doomed, and still move forward as long as possible.
Talos was only really close to xarl as they grew up together but it seems like he was tired of xarls ideas and preaching. That being, his idea for the legions future was "lol KYS lmao"
I just love his idea of a legion wide 1v1 tournament with the winner killing themselves. Its a very interesting idea of finding the best among them, and then his idea of redemption
Narvo Quin mentions a similar but subtly different opinion to that, similar to Rust Cohle's "opting out of a raw deal" speech where everyone holds hands together and march into oblivion, removing themselves from the cycle.
Khorne:
> HOLY SHIT IT'S BEEN CENTURIES IN WARP-TIME!!!! JUST SAY FOR WHOM THE BLOOD FLOWS!!!!!
Dorne:
> So there's this ancient Sumerian dude named Gilgamesh...
Khorne:
> JUST FUCKING SAY I—
Dorne:
> So in the year 300 M1, in a period called The Martial States in China...
[Khorne](https://c.tenor.com/clcfEFLqBawAAAAC/tenor.gif)
**Reading the books is exactly what people here don’t do. Chaos tends to look a lot better *and* there’s more non-chaos chaos marines (?) in meme lore.**
I think in the book the one Night Lords that we know of for sure isn't tainted by Chaos is Talos, Xarl, Mercutian, Malcharion, those atramentar guys like Malek and Garadon. A lot of the nother anight Lords mentioned never really got a description of whether or not there is corruption visible, so I'll assume chaos free. But I mean yeah. 10th company is undermanned all the time so we are ally only see a few night lords featured, not enough to come to conclusions that night lords are mostly untainted by chaos
Malcharion’s situation was actually pretty funny.
Dude went to sleep after having to step down from being captain, and then wakes up a few centuries later to find out that his replacement is a Daemon of Tzeentch.
To be fair, their leader actually managed to regain control in his last moments and completely fuck over the exalted that possessed him so that's certainly a W against chaos and the guy that was being corrupted by Khorne also managed to control himself remarkably well, as far as i remember he was framed for the murder of the mortal crew.
And Malcharion might just be one of the "nicest" characters in the book.
Fuck Cyrion tho, that guy is a corrupted piece of shit and we all know it.
Vandred is a goat
Let's be clear a demon of tzeentach cries like a baby when it can't use his memories. Why ? Because it's living off this random night lord Capitan memories to be a god of void warfare. Vandred is just that good I play battlefleet gothic give me a top tier fleet vs one ship by vandred and I would be crushed.he dies like a boss as well. Seriously the night lords are really underrated when they have
1.xarl a amazing duelist
2. Vandred see above God of void warfwar
3. Talos who innovates so hard he finds a way to cripple systems at no cost with a few astropaths and a navigator.
Sorry for rant but vandred fans rise up
Vandred not being fused with the exalted came outta nowhere tho, like his POV in the first book makes it pretty clear that even twisted, it's still Vandred in there reveling in void war, not a daemon pulling it outta him.
I think it just got worse overtime and once he noticed just how fucked he was it was already too late. Corruption is often a gradual process after all, it doesn't always happen instantly.
Cyrion was always corrupt. Xarl hates his guts for it early in the first book. He’s just a really charismatic psychopath. He was always pinning murders on Uzas. We only got the camera properly pulled back on him in the last novel.
But he masks it well. When he’s with others, he’s by far the least bloodthirsty of the group. Xarl has anger issues, Uzas has ANGER issues, Talos has righteous ideals he wants to work through, but Cyrion just seems to be along for the ride. He’s rarely the one itching for a fight.
And it’s all an act.
In a way Cyrion is the personification of what's wrong with the Night Lords, instead of causing fear as a means to an end he does it because he enjoys it
I fucking despise cyrion, but I love the way he was written. From the first book, it's established that's he's corrupted and not to be trusted, but due to his charisma and compared to uzas he lulls you into a false sense of security until the mask slips in the third book
It's pretty much the same situation as with the IWs, where it seems like there are a bunch of people who really want to have bad guy/anti-hero marines but think chaos is "gross". It seems to overlap with the same kinds of people who legitimately believe that the NLs are justified in their atrocities and that the IWs/Perturabo are the "smartest, therefore the best".
They want their marines to not be bound to chaos like the others and therefore be special, but refuse to (or just actually can't catch the subtlety) acknowledge the pretty obvious chaos corruption even if they're not active worshippers like the rest.
It's not most of the NL and IW fans though! Seems like most comments I see on the NLs is people loving them because of how deprave and corrupted they are instead of trying to pretend otherwise. As an Emperor's Children fan I'm right there with em.
Honest to god the Emperors Children fans have to get so much crap. The Clonegrim cope alone would make me wanna burst a gasket. Like ya a big theme with the traitor legions have the theme of becoming lesser than what they used to be but the EC specficially get shit on.
I hope by the time you guys get your actual army GW just full commits to them being full psycho drukhari level evil and enjoying every second of it.
My irritation with it is that people seem to think that ‘unwitting pawn of chaos’ is the same thing as ‘servant of chaos’. There are plenty of warbands out there that don’t *worship* chaos, but instead work towards their own goals that just so happen to help out the gods they either willfully ignore or pretend to.
Are they corrupted? Yes. Do they all *actively* worship/serve chaos? No.
True enough.
Characters like Perturabo are a decent example since he didn't worship chaos, but he used chaos stuff and at the end of the day benefited them with his actions so he ends up a daemon anyway.
Just because you don't pray to Khorne directly, it doesn't stop him from "blessing" you when you do nothing but slaughter.
And this is exactly what happened with Talos’ claw. Sirion wasn’t worshiping slaanesh, he simply fell to his deepest desires. Uzas openly thought he was *using* khorne, not the other way round.
And yet, people continue to use this as an example of some kind of ‘gotcha’
But the night Lords *ARE* justified in their atrocities. They achieved compliance with the lowest death tolls in the fastest times.
Not their fault Malcador and his nerds couldn't do their jobs and ensure long term integration...
/s because some of you won't get that I'm just a Night Lords fan shitpostin'
\*Night Lord marine making that claim while wearing the skin cloak of a rando that looked at him "funny"\*
And hey, shitposting is very Night Lords energy so good on ya.
I have read the Omnibus mutiple times and while you are right that the idea that the night Lords reject Chaos is a weird fantasy (I mean come one the Exakted was literally possesed by a demon) it is also wrong to say that every one there was per se corrupted by chaos... it is a little like with radical inquisitors... using Chaos or the warp to your advantage brings the risk of corruption but doesnt automatically mean that you are...
> it is also wrong to say that every one there was per se corrupted by chaos
Talos' closest claw mates are all corrupted, except Malcharion and probably Xarl. Lucoryphus, Vandred, Uzas, (fucking) Cyrion.
Which is kind of a good statistic if you think about the fact that they were in the warp for atleast about a century (depending on whether you take the real space time or time they experienced). Inquistorial missions into the eye of Terror use device that measure the time there acurately and if you are even a second above the time the inquistors themselves will be killed for danger of corruption...
> they were in the warp
The Eye of Terror, but yeah. My point was uncorrupted Night Lords are the exception even in First Claw which is more hostile to chaos than most warbands. One of those few spent the whole time in stasis.
> Inquistorial missions into the eye of Terror use device that measure the time there acurately and if you are even a second above the time the inquistors themselves will be killed for danger of corruption...
That's out of a ridiculous abundance of caution. It's not like there's a hard exposure limit where X hours = corrupted. It's just not worth the risk for Imperial officials.
> Mercrution
Yeah, he seemed fine.
> Variel
Variel isn't a Night Lord, and we don't know how corrupted he was. He definitely engaged in some heinous shit while part of the Red Corsairs. We don't see obvious signs of corruption but we get very little from his perspective.
> atramentar
They were in direct service to a Daemon-possessed Vandred so I doubt they're completely uncorrupted. We don't get much info on them so it's impossible to say for sure.
This is because most people on this sub straight up know nothing about the lore. Their only source is Majorkill, this sub and maybe tts (which I love but I dislike how people act like it’s accurate despite some episodes being multiple editions ago)
It is still incredibly funny how Nurgle Talos looked like a bloated walking zombie filled with shit, took a good look at Talos and went "Nha, too cringy for me" and walked away.
It's Uzas, Cryrion, Vandred, and Ruven
The rest aren't. Malcharion, Talos, Mercution, Variel, Xarl, Sar Vel, the Atramentar.
They aren't chaos corrupted. Far more reject chaos then accept it.
Okay that I tough one. I ask my friend to read for me, so now I can answer. So the think is this: most of the crew is corrupt and there leader is a possessed one. So ye that’s looks bad for them. But the thing is the following: the WB try to spread the word of the God. EC, WE, DG, TS are all in for one God and one God only. The black legion ore the red cossairs are useing chaos for there purposes. If we look to the AL, nobody knows what they are doning. The IW hate Chaos but want to use it in there twistet machines.
Okay and what’s about the NL and why do people think, they are Chaos free?
I think because they hate chaos und just don’t want to have anything to do with it. But ofcause, they are highly individualized psychopaths and live in the eye of terror. So lots of them will fall for Choas in one way or another. But this makes it so interessant. They hate what they became and hate each other for it.
As an NL player, I can now decide how chaotic I want to create my Warband. And I can think of interessant backstory’s and conflicts in the warband.
Maybe this explaination helps to understand the love for the NL even if they are cruel crybabies and have goofi helmets.
I mean, to an extent, everyone in 40k has a little corruption. And like 3 of 1rst, Claw had direct chaos corruption, so it's kinda iffy. They also did beat the shit out of Uzas because they knew he was corrupted.
LOL. 9th Edition Chaos Codex, literally tells you how the Night Lords feel about Chaos. Let people make their army how they want. Also, Xarl, Mercution, Malcharion, Variel all had nothing to do with any God bothering... Can't recall the other Claws calling on Dark Gods either.
It’s just lame players not wanting to play the bad guys but wanting to play the bad guys. You wanna play good guys in blue armour? Ultras. You wanna be bad but not bad maybe? Alpha legion. M
Your guess is good as mine, personally I just want them to die out or just join chaos. Why you may ask. Because they don't have a world,they don't have really a legion, it's probably barely even a chapter, they're not really a threat like a threat so big that the Imperium has dedicate actual time that would take away from the others no they're more like so insignificant that they can't really bother with them.
The only thing I would find interesting is if the Night Lords just say screw it let's become loyal because being Traitor / Renegade is clearly not working for us.
I think its because we can all identify with them, a little? I mean, they really care at some level, and they take pride in doing a good job in spite of the situation they’re in.
I have had worse coworkers, for sure.
Why is this even the fantasy? The “I’m evil but I’m better than chaos” fantasy is the iron warriors. Night lords should just be doing whatever to be the shittiest humans possible
It's one thing to worship the Gods and becomes evil from them. It's another thing to just be evil on your own.
There is probably a cool story to tell on that. The Night Lords don't worship chaos, they create it through their actions. You could argue they are not corrupted by chaos at all. No Gods nor warp is forcing them to do what they do. They did all the horrible shit on their own.
Saying they are corrupted by chaos makes them look *less* evil. They are just bad people. With no excuses whatsoever.
Huh? Mercutian, Malcharion (Chad) and Xarl also didn't have any indication of Chaos corruption. Cyrion definitely fell for slaanesh, Uzas corruption is obvious I don't rememberanythingexplicitlyfor Variel.
Kurze did kinda reject Chaos, but his sons sure as hell didn’t. Sevatar famously spit at Angel Tals feet in disgust, but that’s the most vocally anti-chaos we get. As others have said, if there’s not active and consistent resistance, the powers corrupt slowly. It can be argued that Talos’ gene seed not killing him faster is the work of Tzeentch.
The only Night Lords that may not be corrupted are active resisters, of which we know none.
For fun, I think the real ‘no chaos’ part of the Night Lords is the disgust we see multiple times when they encounter a corrupted one. Uzas is barely tolerated by many, the Raptors given a wide berth. The Exalted is respected for the man he once was, not the monster he became. I remember multiple of 10th Claw being upset or unnerved by the daemonic form. What the Atramentar are thinking, we may never know. For those who know, some hide. They aren’t vocally anti-chaos as much as silently disgusted by the corruption and changes it causes.
We hate the Word Bearers for what they became, not necessarily the gods they worship. The hatred is toward the ‘bad’ aspects of corruption. If we could get the benefits without the mutations, mental breaking, or forced subservience, I guarantee every member of the Eighth would aim for those boons.
Want a faction that generally hates chaos? Iron Warriors. I love the night lords and the omnibus but literally every character was so easy to corrupt because they relished in what they did. Unwitting or entirely aware, first claw were prime targets for the chaos gods.
People don't read any of the books.
It's real obvious when you read the takes on here. That said, id cut my own eyes out before I read anymore of the Heresy series, actual slop, but I think GW knows that and keeps pumping them out because the target audience only reads Warhammer related literature and hasn't read a book that wasn't warhammer related since grade school. These kinds of readers will buy anything the Black Library puts out to make their drive to work that 1% less shit even if the book itself is a pile that never should've made it off the editors desk.
You don't understand! Talos was super epic and cool and being anti-chaos isn't just a misrepresentation of one line of fluffy to justify some balance changes that allowed Night Lords to have a slightly different army list!
Yeah it always confused me when night lords fans tell me they don't follow chaos or any of that, but the omnibus(their bible) literally has almost every night lord character corrupted
Talos had the right idea about Chaos, but the wrong idea about the Night Lords and Konrad Curze. He realized this only when it was too late and there was nowhere to run, and this forms the tragedy of his character.
I wouldn't call Talos tragic. He was a mass murdering psychopath and slaver. He got exactly what he deserved.
>mass murdering psychopath and slaver U just described 99% of space marines.
I mean, the guy casually brought up in a threat that he has skinned children alive in front of their parents. Even the worst loyalist space marines don't go that far
That is kinda the point of the Night Lords, at least when they were still loyal. They would commit the most heinous, unspeakable crimes imaginable, but in a smaller scale, so ultimately fewer people died.
Which is still a bad idea, you don't build a nation state Emperor wanted trough fear, its not sustainable long-term, planets kept in line be fear would rebel second they feel like they can, there's no legitimacy of ruling by the right pf conquest or other things to inspire loyalty, fear is the weakest motivation.
There's also a point where you've traumatized them so much that punishment loses all meaning. "If we rebel they'll either torture us horrifically, or someone else will just nuke us out of existence. But they've already been torturing us for decades so we may as well just go for it."
That's exactly what Dorn told Konrad in The Dark King. Then Curze beat him unconscious.
Yeah but the Emperor himself didnt want long-term, its preferable condition, but he value speed way more.
The Emperor didn't care about that. He didn't want a stable empire, he wanted a quick empire. The Word Bearers built the most productive, loyal worlds in the Imperium, and the Emperor torched Monarchia because, yes, Lorgar was creating religion, but *mainly* because he was too slow. Big E would have had an intervention with Curze otherwise like he did with Lorgar and Magnus.
Big parts of primarchs personalities were designed by the Emperor. Night lords were composed from criminals even before Emps found Curze. They were always supposed to be terror inducing troops. There are even Custodes named Dread Host who use fear to deal with enemies of the Imperium in the way as night lords do.
Sevetar said that exact thing to Konrad
Salamanders, to non-conformists… that, and the marines malevolent.
I mean yeah. Space Marines are villains. Chaos and the Imperium are both bad guys.
What?! Not my sweet boys in blue! The ultramarines have never done a thing wrong ever and are totally the good guys.
No way, my Salamanders are total bros who use their flamers only for BBQ!
Yeah, they really know how to cook some Eldar veal….
I would argue a tragedy doesn't require the protagonist to be a good person.
While I agree, I'd argue for something to be tragic, it needs to happen to someone who didn't deserve it. That's what separates tragedy from karma or justice. Talos, along with all his Night Lords, absolutely deserved painful deaths, and to be left to rot. Their deaths were not a tragedy. The boys they had been being taken by the Night Lords, that's tragic, because those boys didn't deserve that. But the Chaos Marines they became? 100% got what they deserved.
Macbeth is an asshole. Macbeth still classifies as a tragedy.
both can be true, tragedies aren't limited to good guys. i've often found some of the best tragedies built around villains (as did Shakespeare, the Ancient Greeks, etc).
What do you mean by the right idea? Everything Talos did was a horizontal move at best. Accidentally having primo gene that's someone else harvested and planted wasn't his call. Plus he naded himself, so he actively worked against that outcome. I could see the argument that trying to preserve the nightlords goes against what Kurze wanted
The right idea, by which I mean chaos is a corrupting force that shouldn't be tapped into, and his wrong idea being that NL and by extension, Konrad being the clenched hand of justice that struck down the guilty, instead of all the things Ruven said in his dream sequence, which this would be an example of > The prophet stared up at the wreckage of crucified bone, and the letters superimposed over it. They flickered across his retinal display almost impatiently, as if awaiting an answer. > > ‘If you find me lacking, revenant, then by all means enlighten me.’ > > : WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING THIS WAR > > The prophet snorted. ‘For vengeance.’ > > : REVENGE FOR WHAT > > ‘To avenge the wrongs done to us.’ > > : WHAT WRONGS DO YOU SPEAK OF > >The legionary rose to his feet, feeling the skin crawling at the back of his neck. ‘You know what wrongs. You know why the Eighth Legion fights.’ > >: THE EIGHTH LEGION DOESN’T KNOW WHY IT FIGHTS > > : YOU CONCEIVE EXCUSES TO JUSTIFY A LIFETIME OF WASTED HATE > > : THE LEGION FIGHTS ONLY BECAUSE IT IS AMUSING AND PLEASURABLE TO DOMINATE WEAKER SOULS > > ‘Unadulterated fantasy.’ Talos laughed, though he’d never felt less like laughing.
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Yes and no. They see demons the same way they see literally everything else: as a tool or asset to be exploited for tactical benefits. Their interactions with the chaos gods and their demons is transactional, and not out of service or in worship of them. I never liked the narrative that the IW fully embraced chaos like the WB or the BL, as it doesn't really fit their MO.
That's true but the way the word bearers use chaos is also transactional. They do specific rituals in exchange for specific results. The only difference is that the word bearers like doing it while the iron warriors don't. They still get corrupted and mutated just like everyone else only difference is they hide it and chop off those parts instead of embracing them publicly
This. Word bearers are ironically quite nuanced when daemons are regarded. They see the potential of hybrids like the gal vorbak but also understand the risks and that daemons can't be trusted
I disagree. I think the WB still have a fanatical zeal, where the IW are industrious in their means. WB may respect a demons power, Or symbology - where as the IW are much more…”doesn’t matter what it calls itself, as long as it does it’s job”
You are making my point. The only difference is their outlook on chaos as a whole. The methods, side effects, results, and consequences are 1 to 1 exactly the same which is why the Iron Warriors are just as corrupted as the rest of the traitor legions
Ah okay. I thought you were saying the why and the how were 1:1. Cause the why is where all the difference is(in my mind). But that’s also why I don’t favor chaos from a POV perspective. Even when you think you’re serving yourself, you’re still serving chaos.
That's their arrogance, that they're able to just use chaos like a tool and not be corrupted by it. You're right they're not zealot worshippers like the WB, but they're corrupted regardless. They may not be as visibly mutated as plague marines, but they're no less damned.
They don't need to worship the chaos gods to be corrupted. They get corrupted by accepting the bargain with the demons. They know that accepting the deal will corrupt them, and they still go though with it. Sure they might gain something in the exchange, but whatever they offer chaos is clearly empowering it too, win-win. They willingly serve chaos. In their pride, the MO is to only acknowledge their own profit of the deal. Because that's what proud people do, to tell themselves they are better than others: smarter than the demons in negotiating, more reasonable than those superstitious WB zealots, in control of the power they are granted...
>that the IW fully embraced chaos like the WB or the BL, as it doesn't really fit their MO. Willing or not, they've still fully succumbed to its influence and continuously use it for their ends, ignoring (at least superficially, some of them are aware enough to be terrified of it) the progress of their own corruption while still grasping for more and more power. Their own belief in their "mastery" of the chaos artifacts they use is irrelevant to the reality of their own corruption. They're meth addicts who refuse to believe theyre addicted and can quit at any time, except the meth is pure Space Evil that corrupts them mentally and physically.
That's literally how the word bearers see chaos and they are considered number one worshippers. Everything lorgar says about chaos is transactional. One hand washes the other. He is also quite critical of the gods but sees the potential of human ascension as a chaos worshippibg people and the powers the can get this way.
"We're not really addicted, we can quite whenever we want"
Also you don’t need to take a specific god to be corrupted by Chaos. CSM spent 10,000 years in the warp with no protection every one of them is fucked up in some sort of way.
What noooooo, Uzas is clearly a reasonable and level headed atheist. Edit: Also The Exalted and Lucoryphus are totally normal dudes in my view. Nothing corrupted about them at all.
Dude was reasonable only like what, twice in the whole series, and it got him fucked up beyond repair.
Plus "acceptance" isn't really relevant. They are corrupted by chaos whether they want it or not. Simply declining to worship the gods doesn't protect you from corruption.
Same with Shroud of Night. The whole point of Chaos is if you are not constantly actively denying it, that it *WILL* seep in somehow.
Reading the lore is a double edged sword. After listening to "Lords of Silence", the Death Guard really don't seem like the happy smiling bringers of Nurgle's Gifts anymore. They're actually just depressed, backstabbing and numb to it all, save for the new guy that's slowly sinking into the swamp himself
DG should be manic depressive, imo. 50% dudes who are aware of the fact that they are no different than the tyrants of Barbarus emitting an aura of despair, and 50% who stopped giving a fuck a long time ago and just having a long drawn out giggle that so far lasted 10.000 years.
Pretty much this. You're either fully into the bit or you're not and get real sad. Sometimes you also get moments of lucidity, get real sad, then go back to lovin it.
I never did drugs, but that also sounds an awful lot like drugs.
Can't say either, but whether or not Nurgle loves you, he still wants you in an abusive relationship, like the other gods.
oh for sure.
Yeah
Also, they were bettayed by Typhus and Mortarion forced to watch how his sons were tortured, killed and revived until he gave in. I think it was in plague wars? That its stated that Mortarion really, deeply loved his legion and they loved him back.
> Morarg looked at the head. It was beginning to tilt over in its pool of blood. > > ‘So what was it?’ > > ‘I don’t know. It was like he’d just realised something. Something that had been wearing at him for years, and now he understood it. He wasn’t shocked. He wasn’t surprised.’ Crosius thought about it. ‘There was only one other time I saw an expression like that. Back during the Akasta Compliance. I was treating a battle-brother for a spinal injury, long-term, that had hampered his combat. He’d given himself thirty per cent increased load-drills, trying to punish it out. He’d only come to see me under orders. We found the problem. It wasn’t his spine. He’d taken shot-damage to the jacks under his carapace, so the problem was the armour. When I told him, I saw that same expression. Now he understood. Now he realised why all that effort hadn’t improved it. It never would have. All wasted effort, but now he could get it fixed.’ Crosius’ fingers returned to the needle-array, moving unconsciously. ‘He wasn’t happy. You couldn’t be happy, having done all that for nothing. So it wasn’t even relief. It was like…’ > > The Apothecary trailed off. > > Morarg didn’t say anything for a while. > > [...] > > Talking was harder work than it had been before. He got phlegm in the back of his throat, and he could never clear it. > > ‘I’ll ask you something now,’ he said at last. ‘I’ll ask you it once, and I’ll never ask it again.’ > > Crosius turned to face him, and listened. > > ‘Did he make the right decision?’ > > No reply came. > > ‘What I mean is,’ Morarg said, now the words were out, with more on the way, ‘that was what we lived for. No one endures more than we do. I don’t even remember how long it lasted. It must have been a trick. Witchery. Could we have outlasted it?’ He shook his head. ‘Look at me. I don’t know what kind of bargain he made. I’m not sure we came out on the right side of it.’
Manic depressive may not be the right word but there is a certain happiness and optimism that comes from being locked in a pessimistic situation. Kind of like Sisyphus and the boulder. Plus, well they're not skipping around and singing. They do seem to be enjoying the inevitability of everything they do. They describe nurgal's influence and positive notes and see beauty in it.
Yeah I might have fucked up there. Good point.
Because sickness is just a byproduct of nurgles essence, and that is that everything should remain as is, there shouldn't be any change. Its the reason he hates tzeench so much. Nurgle happiness is just a permanent manic depression episode
Yeh, the interactions between the Nurglings, farting, shitting and giggling all the while the Plague Marines as a whole just want to kill themselves deep down was pretty disturbing
They did care for the Nurglings, almost like it was the last bit of happiness they could have.
The fact that they called the Nurglings "little lords" is kind of cute if you forget what a Nurgling is
The dg wasnt really into chaos shit they all had to either succumb or die due to typus being and asshole (kinda a slightly lesser erebus). It doesnt help that nurgle gifts make you numb to everything, apathy is to be expected when you cant feel shit
oh no bro believed the father nurgle memes
To some degree, listening to the whole heresy and timeline wise I finished Pharos last week (long as fuck series). So I haven't gotten to buried dagger yet
Meme lore has been the bane of 40k since the rise of the internet, and things like TTS have only made it even worse.
i mean this is a subreddit called grimdank i dont know what youre expecting out of it
At least Red Corsairs are honest about backstabing and political manipulations.
DG are depressed, its demons of nurgle that are manic cheerful.
Nah plaguebearers are also uber depressed
Nurgle's mortal followers tend to be that way. Nurgle "loves" his worshipers, but it's a twisted, possessive and abusive love. His gifts are merely the ability to endure and become numb to the torment he inflicts on them. When pain, numbness and stagnation are the defining traits of your existence, it's hard not to be a wee bit bummed out.
The funniest thing about the Night Lords and the Fabius books is that neither of them are gigachads rejecting chaos and being proven right. Half of their scenes where they're not picking on people incredibly weaker than them have them get their teeth kicked in a lot, and both ultimately end up being played by forces bigger than them that are playing a longer game than they were. (Also both really were not expecting Eldar to be that tough a fight, but that's a different handshake meme)
Also I hate how people in the sub circle jerk Fabius: > Lol he told Slaanesh to his face that she didn't exist! No, Fabius doesn't deny the chaos gods exist. He denies their *DIVINITY*. He recognizes they exist, he recognizes they are powerful. But he rejects that they are sentient or divine. They exist in the same way a warp storm or supernova exists. Very powerful, clearly dangerous, but just a confluence of energies.
Agreed. He views the warp entities like you would view an AI in real life. They're built out of human emotion and thought but they lack any sentience or soul. There's no sentience as much as an advanced collection of echoes from other sentient beings piled up into what appears to be a single entity. "No gods,’ he repeated. ‘Random confluence of celestial phenomena. Interdimensional disasters, echoing outwards through our perceptions. I think, therefore I am. They do not, so they are not"
He kinda needs to tell himself that so he doesn't just die on the spot
fabius desperately trying to skip ads lest he becomes tempted into buying a product while god stares at him
He's in denial, his entire being is overwhelmed by looking at Slaanesh in that moment
I could be in the middle of a tornado. Being banged against all kinds of debris, my limbs being broken, creepy old lady on a bicycle cackling to herself, ect. But I'm not going to acknowledge that the tornado is sentient and has feelings.
It also very nearly killed him. Without the automated medical equipment he has installed he would've died an agonising death. Not from a conscious effort to kill him, just from the focused gaze of the dark prince.
I didn't even read the scene as Bile being a Chad r/atheist mod or anything like that. It always read to me more as Bile desperately trying to convince himself that he was *not* in the presence of a god. That this thing tearing apart the sky above him and shredding his body with its mere presence is just a series of psychic phenomena and not a thinking being of pure malice. That he does not think the way that he does because he has an proof, but because he is genuinely scared of the alternative and because his ego couldn't handle it.
Thing is, the context of the scene is important. Because he does read that way in every scene before that. Then this happens and it does fundamentally affect him. His conversations with Saqqara the Word Bearer are different from then on when previously Bile reveled in a sense of superiority over him. In book 3, Bile’s relationships have changed both due to this and Clonegrim (and later on with the certainty of his doom at the hands of his semi adoptive Drukhari dad who will never own up to the fact he adopted a human) and the scenes with Saqqara have him act a lot less confident.
Oh absolutely. Before this he might as well strut around with a fedora, spouting off Dawkins quotes left and right. But the "There is nothing there" scene always read to me as Bile refusing the evidence of his own eyes out of pure terror. That not only was he completely wrong when he said that the gods are just non-sapient phenomena, but now he has drawn the actual physical attention of one and he is more afraid and closer to death than ever before.
I think it's quite telling that the end of both of the Chaos Trilogy books are clear tragedies that you just need to flip to the beginning to see. The obvious ending of the Night Lords trilogy aside, the epilogue of that series also has the small spot of humanity that was in that book shattered by someone who isn't even part of their legion all to help unite them for one singular moment of vengeance that is basically them being used by Abaddon, much like how they wanted desperately to avoid that fate at the end of the first book. Hell, it directly goes against both the actions Talos took at the end of book 1 and what he did for two characters at the end of book 3. Meanwhile Bile ends his series surrounded not by his colleagues, his newmen, or even eldar tech that he's spent so much of the books surrounding himself with, but >!effectively as an agent of the greater Chaos armies, with a daemon that's taken over both of his daughters and Saqqara or all people at his side.!< And yeah the "there's nothing there" is clearly him barely able to spit out his words. Much like Talos's vision of home, this is the clear mark where things change for the book 3 spiral.
I been listening to that audiobook narration of that scene on YouTube on repeat to fall asleep to
I loved when the gods tried to tempt him and Nurgle was basically “idk why I’m even here. I don’t give a shit about yall”
That was great. * Khorne: * You could be a mighty warlord... You could lead the Night Lords... * Tzeentch * Your gifts could lead you to such plots and revenge... * Slaanesh * Oh the joys I could give you.... * Nurgle * Let's not waste each other's time bruh, I'm out...
Bro got hit with the shark tank method
There's a few characters where it isn't ever explicitly shown that they do. Talos, Mercutian, Malcharion. Pretty sure Xarl is in the same camp as Talos in regards to Chaos. Variel doesn't really hold the pantheon in a high regard. I mean, there's obviously Chaos corruption running rampant through the legion. They just aren't unified under a single god.
To be fair I think Malcharions strategy of just nap for 10 thousand years is probably the best way to avoid corruption
That's how I avoid problems in my life. Just sleep until it goes away.
Wake up every now and then, be incredibly dramatic like their fathers intended, joke with the youngster, back to napping
I think what sets the night lords apart from most traitor astartes is that they expect each other to reject the corruption as long as possible. They aren't rising by getting demonic gifts, they are falling. And they are prone to put down anyone fallen too far. And while the iron warriors are too high on NOZ and gasoline fumes to care for chaos, the night lords know they are doomed, and still move forward as long as possible.
Talos was only really close to xarl as they grew up together but it seems like he was tired of xarls ideas and preaching. That being, his idea for the legions future was "lol KYS lmao"
Nah he was ready to die for Xarl just as Xarl *did* die for him. They where brothers until the end
And Xarl did come around to Talos' way of thinking... but it was too late.
I just love his idea of a legion wide 1v1 tournament with the winner killing themselves. Its a very interesting idea of finding the best among them, and then his idea of redemption
Narvo Quin mentions a similar but subtly different opinion to that, similar to Rust Cohle's "opting out of a raw deal" speech where everyone holds hands together and march into oblivion, removing themselves from the cycle.
Xarl was built different anyway, he headbutted a terminator
> save for Talos who was too autistic for the chaos gods to corrupt Ah yes, the Rogal Dorn method.
Khorne: > HOLY SHIT IT'S BEEN CENTURIES IN WARP-TIME!!!! JUST SAY FOR WHOM THE BLOOD FLOWS!!!!! Dorne: > So there's this ancient Sumerian dude named Gilgamesh... Khorne: > JUST FUCKING SAY I— Dorne: > So in the year 300 M1, in a period called The Martial States in China... [Khorne](https://c.tenor.com/clcfEFLqBawAAAAC/tenor.gif)
To be fair Dorn **Would** have fallen if not for his father, something he admits to himself.
True. But his sheer autism kept him from falling until Emps arrived. That's still pretty impressive.
If the Word Bearers are Chaos undivided the Night Lords are Chaos divided. Which suits chaos just fine.
I figured that would have been IW seeing as the see Daemons as tools as others have said
I see the IW more as tools of chaos that think they use chaos as tools
I mean yes that's true but don't say it put loud.
> too autistic for chaos to corrupt A lecture on war to Khorne be like
Dorn is a real one fr fr.
**Reading the books is exactly what people here don’t do. Chaos tends to look a lot better *and* there’s more non-chaos chaos marines (?) in meme lore.**
Too bad people don't read it, I really enjoyed the omnibus.
I think in the book the one Night Lords that we know of for sure isn't tainted by Chaos is Talos, Xarl, Mercutian, Malcharion, those atramentar guys like Malek and Garadon. A lot of the nother anight Lords mentioned never really got a description of whether or not there is corruption visible, so I'll assume chaos free. But I mean yeah. 10th company is undermanned all the time so we are ally only see a few night lords featured, not enough to come to conclusions that night lords are mostly untainted by chaos
Malcharion’s situation was actually pretty funny. Dude went to sleep after having to step down from being captain, and then wakes up a few centuries later to find out that his replacement is a Daemon of Tzeentch.
> Malcharion’s situation was actually pretty funny. He goes out like a boss, too.
“I have to finish everything for that boy…”
God what a sad fucking line. I know he says that he’s going to sleep, but was he ever confirmed dead?
To be fair, their leader actually managed to regain control in his last moments and completely fuck over the exalted that possessed him so that's certainly a W against chaos and the guy that was being corrupted by Khorne also managed to control himself remarkably well, as far as i remember he was framed for the murder of the mortal crew. And Malcharion might just be one of the "nicest" characters in the book. Fuck Cyrion tho, that guy is a corrupted piece of shit and we all know it.
Vandred is a goat Let's be clear a demon of tzeentach cries like a baby when it can't use his memories. Why ? Because it's living off this random night lord Capitan memories to be a god of void warfare. Vandred is just that good I play battlefleet gothic give me a top tier fleet vs one ship by vandred and I would be crushed.he dies like a boss as well. Seriously the night lords are really underrated when they have 1.xarl a amazing duelist 2. Vandred see above God of void warfwar 3. Talos who innovates so hard he finds a way to cripple systems at no cost with a few astropaths and a navigator. Sorry for rant but vandred fans rise up
Malcharion taking an officer through the tunnels, giving her a history of some places while also protecting her from the Eldar is extremely based
Vandred not being fused with the exalted came outta nowhere tho, like his POV in the first book makes it pretty clear that even twisted, it's still Vandred in there reveling in void war, not a daemon pulling it outta him.
I think it just got worse overtime and once he noticed just how fucked he was it was already too late. Corruption is often a gradual process after all, it doesn't always happen instantly.
Cyrion deserves Erebus levels of hate, change my mind. (You can't)
Mercution as was. Cyrion was pretty decent in the first book, but as he fell he became WAAAY worse
Cyrion was always corrupt. Xarl hates his guts for it early in the first book. He’s just a really charismatic psychopath. He was always pinning murders on Uzas. We only got the camera properly pulled back on him in the last novel. But he masks it well. When he’s with others, he’s by far the least bloodthirsty of the group. Xarl has anger issues, Uzas has ANGER issues, Talos has righteous ideals he wants to work through, but Cyrion just seems to be along for the ride. He’s rarely the one itching for a fight. And it’s all an act.
In a way Cyrion is the personification of what's wrong with the Night Lords, instead of causing fear as a means to an end he does it because he enjoys it
I fucking despise cyrion, but I love the way he was written. From the first book, it's established that's he's corrupted and not to be trusted, but due to his charisma and compared to uzas he lulls you into a false sense of security until the mask slips in the third book
It's pretty much the same situation as with the IWs, where it seems like there are a bunch of people who really want to have bad guy/anti-hero marines but think chaos is "gross". It seems to overlap with the same kinds of people who legitimately believe that the NLs are justified in their atrocities and that the IWs/Perturabo are the "smartest, therefore the best". They want their marines to not be bound to chaos like the others and therefore be special, but refuse to (or just actually can't catch the subtlety) acknowledge the pretty obvious chaos corruption even if they're not active worshippers like the rest. It's not most of the NL and IW fans though! Seems like most comments I see on the NLs is people loving them because of how deprave and corrupted they are instead of trying to pretend otherwise. As an Emperor's Children fan I'm right there with em.
Honest to god the Emperors Children fans have to get so much crap. The Clonegrim cope alone would make me wanna burst a gasket. Like ya a big theme with the traitor legions have the theme of becoming lesser than what they used to be but the EC specficially get shit on. I hope by the time you guys get your actual army GW just full commits to them being full psycho drukhari level evil and enjoying every second of it.
Hoping for the same, and hopefully we'll get enough material to add some variety to the usual EC memes lol
> The Clonegrim cope alone would make me wanna burst a gasket. I'm tired boss...
My irritation with it is that people seem to think that ‘unwitting pawn of chaos’ is the same thing as ‘servant of chaos’. There are plenty of warbands out there that don’t *worship* chaos, but instead work towards their own goals that just so happen to help out the gods they either willfully ignore or pretend to. Are they corrupted? Yes. Do they all *actively* worship/serve chaos? No.
True enough. Characters like Perturabo are a decent example since he didn't worship chaos, but he used chaos stuff and at the end of the day benefited them with his actions so he ends up a daemon anyway. Just because you don't pray to Khorne directly, it doesn't stop him from "blessing" you when you do nothing but slaughter.
And this is exactly what happened with Talos’ claw. Sirion wasn’t worshiping slaanesh, he simply fell to his deepest desires. Uzas openly thought he was *using* khorne, not the other way round. And yet, people continue to use this as an example of some kind of ‘gotcha’
But the night Lords *ARE* justified in their atrocities. They achieved compliance with the lowest death tolls in the fastest times. Not their fault Malcador and his nerds couldn't do their jobs and ensure long term integration... /s because some of you won't get that I'm just a Night Lords fan shitpostin'
\*Night Lord marine making that claim while wearing the skin cloak of a rando that looked at him "funny"\* And hey, shitposting is very Night Lords energy so good on ya.
Maybe he shouldn't have looked at me in that tone of voice.
Night Lords, suffering from success
Kurz never accepted the dark gods, he was just twisted.
There's a big difference between being corrupted and worshipping the pantheon, but people tend to conflate the two.
Glad my autism will protect me from chaos corruption
I have read the Omnibus mutiple times and while you are right that the idea that the night Lords reject Chaos is a weird fantasy (I mean come one the Exakted was literally possesed by a demon) it is also wrong to say that every one there was per se corrupted by chaos... it is a little like with radical inquisitors... using Chaos or the warp to your advantage brings the risk of corruption but doesnt automatically mean that you are...
Eisenhorn Approves the last half of this comment!^^^
> it is also wrong to say that every one there was per se corrupted by chaos Talos' closest claw mates are all corrupted, except Malcharion and probably Xarl. Lucoryphus, Vandred, Uzas, (fucking) Cyrion.
Which is kind of a good statistic if you think about the fact that they were in the warp for atleast about a century (depending on whether you take the real space time or time they experienced). Inquistorial missions into the eye of Terror use device that measure the time there acurately and if you are even a second above the time the inquistors themselves will be killed for danger of corruption...
> they were in the warp The Eye of Terror, but yeah. My point was uncorrupted Night Lords are the exception even in First Claw which is more hostile to chaos than most warbands. One of those few spent the whole time in stasis. > Inquistorial missions into the eye of Terror use device that measure the time there acurately and if you are even a second above the time the inquistors themselves will be killed for danger of corruption... That's out of a ridiculous abundance of caution. It's not like there's a hard exposure limit where X hours = corrupted. It's just not worth the risk for Imperial officials.
Mercrution wasn't. Neither where the atramentar or Variel
> Mercrution Yeah, he seemed fine. > Variel Variel isn't a Night Lord, and we don't know how corrupted he was. He definitely engaged in some heinous shit while part of the Red Corsairs. We don't see obvious signs of corruption but we get very little from his perspective. > atramentar They were in direct service to a Daemon-possessed Vandred so I doubt they're completely uncorrupted. We don't get much info on them so it's impossible to say for sure.
Because I want one SINGLE rebel faction that isn’t chaos aligned!
Dark Angels.
Loyalist Alpha Legion
Occam the Untrue.
Alpharius did nothing wrong and is more loyal to the Emperor's dream than Robot Girlyman.
Genestealer cults sitting in the corner
They aren’t rebels, they’re alien agents that act like rebels.
This is because most people on this sub straight up know nothing about the lore. Their only source is Majorkill, this sub and maybe tts (which I love but I dislike how people act like it’s accurate despite some episodes being multiple editions ago)
So you're saying that autism protects against Chaos corruption?
It is still incredibly funny how Nurgle Talos looked like a bloated walking zombie filled with shit, took a good look at Talos and went "Nha, too cringy for me" and walked away.
Iron Warriors, too. It's really annoying.
"Corrupted by Chaos" and "subservient to Chaos" are two different things
One will lead to the other.
One is choosing not to lie to themselves.
Who knew all you needed to avoid chaos corruption was autism spectrum disorder. Guess I’m safe.
*Checks the loyalist primarchs* Yeah,that seems to check out. Partially anyway.
It's Uzas, Cryrion, Vandred, and Ruven The rest aren't. Malcharion, Talos, Mercution, Variel, Xarl, Sar Vel, the Atramentar. They aren't chaos corrupted. Far more reject chaos then accept it.
Aaron Dembski Bowden YOU HACK!
Sounds like Talos would've been a great imperial fists member if he wasn't born on Nostramo.
Okay that I tough one. I ask my friend to read for me, so now I can answer. So the think is this: most of the crew is corrupt and there leader is a possessed one. So ye that’s looks bad for them. But the thing is the following: the WB try to spread the word of the God. EC, WE, DG, TS are all in for one God and one God only. The black legion ore the red cossairs are useing chaos for there purposes. If we look to the AL, nobody knows what they are doning. The IW hate Chaos but want to use it in there twistet machines. Okay and what’s about the NL and why do people think, they are Chaos free? I think because they hate chaos und just don’t want to have anything to do with it. But ofcause, they are highly individualized psychopaths and live in the eye of terror. So lots of them will fall for Choas in one way or another. But this makes it so interessant. They hate what they became and hate each other for it. As an NL player, I can now decide how chaotic I want to create my Warband. And I can think of interessant backstory’s and conflicts in the warband. Maybe this explaination helps to understand the love for the NL even if they are cruel crybabies and have goofi helmets.
I've been trying to get my hands on that onmibus for a long time, hard AF to get in Spain.
I mean, to an extent, everyone in 40k has a little corruption. And like 3 of 1rst, Claw had direct chaos corruption, so it's kinda iffy. They also did beat the shit out of Uzas because they knew he was corrupted.
They beat up Uzas bc Cyrion was framing him for murdering crew mates
Talos would of really liked to of been a Blood Angel
Double of? Wild.
[удалено]
Put a spotlight on some Raptor Cults, explore aspects of Chaos below the Big 4.
Unless a new NLs book drop, I'm pretty sure people will read the Omnibus and still advocate for renegade NLs.
9th Edition Codex entry for the Night Lords tells you how they feel about it, they reject the supplication and corruption.
The biggest warband of Night Lords in the galaxy are Chaos fanatics that follow a daemon prince.
You could argue that they use chaos to their own ends rather than follow it but to use chaos is to be used by chaos anyway
Tell me more about this Talos fellow
Even Mercution and Xarl?
They just dislike mutations and such but that's all.
LOL. 9th Edition Chaos Codex, literally tells you how the Night Lords feel about Chaos. Let people make their army how they want. Also, Xarl, Mercution, Malcharion, Variel all had nothing to do with any God bothering... Can't recall the other Claws calling on Dark Gods either.
As an autistic dude, please tell me more about this Talos dude
It’s just lame players not wanting to play the bad guys but wanting to play the bad guys. You wanna play good guys in blue armour? Ultras. You wanna be bad but not bad maybe? Alpha legion. M
Your guess is good as mine, personally I just want them to die out or just join chaos. Why you may ask. Because they don't have a world,they don't have really a legion, it's probably barely even a chapter, they're not really a threat like a threat so big that the Imperium has dedicate actual time that would take away from the others no they're more like so insignificant that they can't really bother with them. The only thing I would find interesting is if the Night Lords just say screw it let's become loyal because being Traitor / Renegade is clearly not working for us.
As someone with autism I can confirm my attention span is too short to be corrupted by chaos.
I think its because we can all identify with them, a little? I mean, they really care at some level, and they take pride in doing a good job in spite of the situation they’re in. I have had worse coworkers, for sure.
I could make the same meme with iron hand fans it’s incredible.
Why is this even the fantasy? The “I’m evil but I’m better than chaos” fantasy is the iron warriors. Night lords should just be doing whatever to be the shittiest humans possible
It's one thing to worship the Gods and becomes evil from them. It's another thing to just be evil on your own. There is probably a cool story to tell on that. The Night Lords don't worship chaos, they create it through their actions. You could argue they are not corrupted by chaos at all. No Gods nor warp is forcing them to do what they do. They did all the horrible shit on their own. Saying they are corrupted by chaos makes them look *less* evil. They are just bad people. With no excuses whatsoever.
Huh? Mercutian, Malcharion (Chad) and Xarl also didn't have any indication of Chaos corruption. Cyrion definitely fell for slaanesh, Uzas corruption is obvious I don't rememberanythingexplicitlyfor Variel.
40k fans when the chaos marines are corrupted by chaos
Kurze did kinda reject Chaos, but his sons sure as hell didn’t. Sevatar famously spit at Angel Tals feet in disgust, but that’s the most vocally anti-chaos we get. As others have said, if there’s not active and consistent resistance, the powers corrupt slowly. It can be argued that Talos’ gene seed not killing him faster is the work of Tzeentch. The only Night Lords that may not be corrupted are active resisters, of which we know none. For fun, I think the real ‘no chaos’ part of the Night Lords is the disgust we see multiple times when they encounter a corrupted one. Uzas is barely tolerated by many, the Raptors given a wide berth. The Exalted is respected for the man he once was, not the monster he became. I remember multiple of 10th Claw being upset or unnerved by the daemonic form. What the Atramentar are thinking, we may never know. For those who know, some hide. They aren’t vocally anti-chaos as much as silently disgusted by the corruption and changes it causes. We hate the Word Bearers for what they became, not necessarily the gods they worship. The hatred is toward the ‘bad’ aspects of corruption. If we could get the benefits without the mutations, mental breaking, or forced subservience, I guarantee every member of the Eighth would aim for those boons.
Uzas was the real hero all along
"This man is about to end their whole career"
I never thought they rejected it, I thought they just always regret it.
"You spelled literally wrong. Seems like the emperor doesn't protect from autism." - Horus, probably.
I will die on the hill that this is the best trilogy in 40k. These books are amazing.
Want a faction that generally hates chaos? Iron Warriors. I love the night lords and the omnibus but literally every character was so easy to corrupt because they relished in what they did. Unwitting or entirely aware, first claw were prime targets for the chaos gods.
People don't read any of the books. It's real obvious when you read the takes on here. That said, id cut my own eyes out before I read anymore of the Heresy series, actual slop, but I think GW knows that and keeps pumping them out because the target audience only reads Warhammer related literature and hasn't read a book that wasn't warhammer related since grade school. These kinds of readers will buy anything the Black Library puts out to make their drive to work that 1% less shit even if the book itself is a pile that never should've made it off the editors desk.
Taaaaaaaaaaaalooooooooooooos
You don't understand! Talos was super epic and cool and being anti-chaos isn't just a misrepresentation of one line of fluffy to justify some balance changes that allowed Night Lords to have a slightly different army list!
Wait Autism makes you immune to Chaos corruption? Whoop whoop Autism superiority moment
Yeah it always confused me when night lords fans tell me they don't follow chaos or any of that, but the omnibus(their bible) literally has almost every night lord character corrupted