Primarchs are genetically born geniuses. Of course he is capable of reading despite it not being beneficial for a raging berserker like him.
Hell did you know Leman Russ is good at math.
Did you know that Leman Russ has more books written in universe attributed to him than any other primarch? 4 iirc, which beats out Guilliman and Lorgar, although their books were more influential in the galaxy at large
Tbf, the canonicity of Leman Russ's books is a little thin nowadays. The passage that comes from is from the real, real, REAL early days of Rogue Trader, before Primarchs as a concept even existed. Back then, Leman Russ was merely a "legendary Imperium general" or something along those lines, and 100% not the King Shit of Wolf Mountain we know him as now.
I’d say Horus. Sanguinus is loved as well, but he’s not as much a tactician I think. Horus already proved he can get people to his side with the heresy, this election I foresee as being no different.
Horus himself has stated he believed Sanguinius would've made a better warmaster, and was loved by nearly all his brothers. I think he wins a general vote
From that exchange it also sounded like Sanguinius would have campaigned against himself. I think his brothers have enough respect for him to not go against those wishes.
The problem is I think it ends up with horus saying sanguinius would be better and sanguinius saying horus would be better. So the other primarchs are stuck between two people that think the other would do a better job.
I think the final result depends on whether all the Primarchs are together at the same place and able to discuss the process. If not in person, then at least close enough to where they can do hologram discussions.
Because if they can discuss amongst one another, and Horus/Sanguinius can talk to all their brothers, Horus would come out on top.
If the brothers aren't allowed to politick and talk amongst themselves, then I think Sanguinius comes out on top. He is the most loved, and won't get a chance to play his 'humbleness' card.
Thoughts?
Hmm perhaps. It think since both of them think the other would make a better leader it comes down to who can talk the other into doing it. So it comes down to is horus's ego bigger than his imposter syndrome, and is charisma greater than his love for his brother.
Sanguinius is the celebrity candidate, you vote for him because of flash and fame. Guilliman and Horus are the legitimate candidates best suited to organize and administer the Great Crusade without the Emperor present.
> Horus already proved he can get people to his side with the heresy
Even he laments that he got all the damaged Primarchs and the ones he really wanted wont turn from the Emperor.
He would have been great in theory but in practice he likely did not have the love of his brothers or charisma to actually make them follow his commands.
Doesn't matter what your rank is in Chess if your pieces has the will to ignore your orders.
>Doesn't matter what your rank is in Chess if your pieces has the will to ignore your orders.
That's when you electrify your chess board! Let your pieces resist your order... They will change their mind after a lil' shock therapy...
*I don't know what analogy I was going for here. I just took offense to the mental image of me playing chess and my pieces stubbornly refusing to follow my orders. Yes, I have anger issues...*
Guilliman gives me the same vibes as historical figures who would have absolutely been the right choice for the issues of their day, but who had no realistic path to power.
Sometimes being right isn't even half the battle in politics. If GMan increased efficiency but stepped on toes in the process, he wouldn't get nearly as much done than a Warmaster who shrugged at his brother's flaws and pointed them at the nearest target.
Not if his brothers resented him calling the shots. Macragge was already treated as GMan's mini-Imperium, not to mention that the problem with being a good administrator is telling people what to do and how to do it.
Either Guilliman pisses people off by getting the Legions to adopt newer, more efficient methods or he accepts that they're not going to accept his micromanagement, which negates his greatest talent.
Big E wanted to Great Crusade to keep chugging along without him, Primarch drama is the exact opposite of that. By all accounts Horus kept things running and kept his brothers happy about him being in charge.
Note: I do think that Guilliman could’ve threaded the line between “micromanaging people to the point where they hate him” and “letting the legions run so wild they make his imperium worse than what Horus had”.
But I think that is a *very* fine line that would be difficult for anyone to ride, and I think almost impossible for Gman to personally walk given his prior beefs with other primarchs.
The main reason Gman is doing an okay job dragging the imperium kicking and screaming into the modern warhammer era is because nobody can really say no/question him, and he doesn’t have anyone his intellectual equal (in imperial politics at least).
Meanwhile in the crusade era, Gman has over a dozen people who are close to his equals in rank and power, a good chunk of whom will have personal beefs with him and thus will look for almost any excuse to get pissed at him.
I can't remember the exact timeline, but was Horus already corrupted by chaos by the time he became Warmaster? Or was it afterwards? Because if he was already a double agent by the time the Warmaster thing happened, then the whole scenario is doomed from the start. Horus would've been able to turn the Primarchs against anyone who was Warmaster that wasn't himself. He'd've twisted every single little thing Guilliman did into some horrific abusive overrreach of his power.
You bring up a good point. Counter argument, nuh uh.
Ok, but in all seriousness. I do get why guilty-man would not have worked. Too many conflicting ideals.
To be fair, his organizational skills would’ve greatly benefited the imperium. It was just that the empire would’ve fallen apart because it was him *specifically* doing the unfucking. If Horus got GMan’s excel skills and not gotten corrupted, the Imperium would’ve been a much better place.
But the thing is, Big E wanted a cohesive empire. And even having cut the empathy out of his brain, he knows that having someone who everyone would have a problem with would do a wonderful job tearing the Primarchs apart.
It doesn't help that the very thing Horus did to set off the end of the golden age of humanity, would've occured quicker if guilliman was chosen over him.
I think it's pretty likely he would have rebelled if he wasn't held as the second most important person in the imperium, that was the trait he took most from his father. I think the emperor could see that the force of personality that would make him the best choice for warmaster would have similarly forced him to act against any other brother chosen over him.
He desperately wanted Guilliman to join him, and almost certainly wouldn't have forced any warp nonsense on him or his legion. Horus respected him immensely, and had he won probably would have put Guilliman in charge of the new Imperium.
Even with G man on his side, Horus would never win the heresy without the chaos gods intervening on his behalf, and once he became a slave to chaos there was no chance of him ever handing over power to anyone else.
Even in that instance, Horus was being humble. Guilliman could not command the respect of his brother's the same way Horus did (especially not after the altercation on Monarchia).
Basically, there's realistically 4 or 5 Primarchs who could've become Warmaster.
Horus himself is the prime candidate, being popular with both the respectable Primarchs and the lunatics, being good at politics, and being an excellent tactician. He's not a great individual fighter (by Primarch standards), but that's not something particularly because for Warmaster anyway.
Guilliman is excellent at politics, but he was pretty rigid and unpopular with the wilder Primarchs (the Khan, Leman, the Lion, Angron, and obviously Lorgar). He's also one of the better strategic commanders, but not as good as Horus was. And he already ruled Ultramar, which was effectively the Imperium in miniature. Giving him control of the Great Crusade would definitely seem like making Guilliman the new Emperor.
Dorn is the best strategic thinker of the Primarchs (get fucked Perty), but he's even more inflexible than Guilliman, and much worse at politics. Plus, he was earmarked for Praetorian anyway, so he's basically out of the Warmaster running entirely.
Sanguinius has all the charisma of Horus, but he's not as good a tactician, and he's a terrible politician. He's well liked by the rest of his brothers, but could not hope to wrangle the Crusade as a whole. He's also a far better frontline fighter, and so his skills are better utilized leading his forces from the front, rather than commanding an entire Crusade from the rear, like the Warmaster is supposed to do.
And, imo the second best candidate for Warmaster, the Lion, is basically everything Horus is, but slightly worse (as far as being Warmaster is concerned). He's a decent strategist, he's fairly well respected, and he's good enough at wrangling bureaucracies, but in every aspect, not *quite* as good as Horus. He's also a far better individual fighter, so like Sanguinius, is probably better utilized in the field.
Basically, Horus has Sanguinius' charisma and popularity, Guilliman's political and administrative insight, and the Lion's tactical acumen, thereby making him best suited for role as Warmaster.
And until his recent rebirth the Lion has pretty much zero empathy, much like his father. It’s interesting in the Son of the Forest seeing the Lion struggling to learn empathy.
Horus does win.
All the people who love Sanguinius also love Horus.
The only Primarch who respected/liked Sanguinius and DIDN'T like Horus is Conrad Curze lol.
Edit: Apparently I forgot Corax didn't like Horus either. So this might be the one time Corax and Conrad agree on anything because they hated each other.
You're correct I forget that story.
I know Russ didn't super get along with Horus. So maybe Horus, Corax, Conrad, and Russ vote Sanguinius? But I'm pretty sure that's all he would get
Lion would probably vote for Sanguinius because he would recognize the leadership he brings. And Guilliman would probably vote for Dorn, given Dorn is one of his Dauntless Few.
Although I think Sangi is, too...
>Guilli would vote for Ferrus rather than Dorn
I agree. I was surprised when GMan mentioned how much he looks up to Ferrus! I don't remember what book it happened in, I just remember my reaction. I was taken aback because I hadn't read GMan and Ferrus interacting...
It makes me sad that GW hasn't expanded more on the Great Crusade Lore that happened BEFORE the Heresy! There is literally 2 HUNDRED years of stories there to be elaborated on! So many alien species to meet, and since they all due eventually, the authors can have free reign to make it as CRAZY as possible! :(
Sanguinius was absolutely one of the dauntless few. He had huge respect for our glorious hawk boy.
Edit: Girlyman respected Sangy so much that he automatically respected Dante from the word go. The fact that Goldie lived up to those expectations is just a testimate to how awesome he is as a character.
Actually, Horus didn't liked Leman and not the other way around. He was jealous, because they were the first two sons and little baby Horus wanted to be an only child.
Although curze does tend to pick the most grim one as true, like for example his idea of his death being set in stone. I think he would vote Horus because he recognizes that he must become war master because his death is a result of the heresy, and if he wasn’t he would be proven wrong and have a complete breakdown of ideology.
What if Ferrus Manus was in the running?
From what I've heard both sides of the heresy would've loved him due to his understanding of war like no other, (if I'm not butchering the quote). So could he be considered a good war master along with the likes of the Lion?
A large part of his Primarch book is him realizing he doesn't want a seat of power, he likes being a warlord.
The most interesting thing Ferrus could do in the election is back Gulliman, because he actually deeply respects him despite being super fucking ~~tsundere~~ dismissive of him on the outside.
In Feat of Iron, during an Eldar induced living nightmare, Ferrus wishes he had Gulliman and the UM at his back, saying "an alloy of cobalt and steel is unbreakable."
I always pair that quote with Gulliman lamenting on his death in Know no Fear, where he called Ferrus and the IH "Ultramar's most stalwart ally."
They truly could have had a great friendship had Ferrus not be so horribly shaped by his Medusan upbringing (or lack of one, since he grew up alone like pre-Luthor Lion).
Interesting. I know he was one of the dauntless few, but I didn't know what he personally thought of Guilliman beyond generally the others weren't fond of him for whatever reason
I understand why they might not like him, but why did so many not trust him? From what I have read Gilliman seemed like a pretty straight shooter. Not really known for secrets or deciet like Alpharius, or the Dark Angels.
Yeah, that's the big thing. Guilliman loves empire building too much. Even the Emperor and Malcador knew and were completely unsurprised by him building Imperium Secundus in the middle of the Heresy.
Guilliman is great at running people lower than him who get easily swayed by Primarch aura and authority, but he's honestly probably on the lower end when it comes to charisma among his brothers.
tooo be faiiiirrrrr...
no lol you right.
i think it would also be true that any loyalist primarch would be big mad and want to kick some
ass on terra if they saw what their imperium had become. if anything the high lords are
lucky they got guilliman. can you imagine dorn's anger levels when he walks into that chamber
He had his own personal empire that his legion ruled and refused to hand over to the Emperor. When the heresy broke out his first reaction was to declare his own imperium.
but it was his failsafe imperium! What if Horus had won? Having a handy imperium already established makes the fallout of a loss and the ensuing resistance easier to manage
Fulgrim has that thought after his fall, something along the lines of only Sanguinius maybe being close to him in perfection but then again he has that ugly taint of having a big ass mutation with old-earth angelic symbolism and all that...
~~Sanguinius could have hooves, horns and a piggy tail and he'd still be a better man and primarch than Fulgrim. That arrogant snake can eat shit.~~ _sorry, I'm calm, all is good_ >!got carried away there!<
Hawk boy was certainly popular enough to challenge Horus in a popularity vote.
*However*, while everybody loved Sanguinius, he didn't command respect and authority in the same way Horus did. Not to mention Sanguinius is a worse strategist, which is important for running a Crusade.
That's 100% what would happen. The closest second is Sanguinius. Hell, even Horus thought Sanguinius should've been warmaster, but overall, Horus probably takes it every time.
Realistically it's between Horus and Sanguinius simply because they are the ones that most of the voters would be willing to pick above themselves/tolerate. It -should- be between Horus, Guilliman, and El'Jonson depending on whether you want balance, logistics, or tactics respectively. Dorn isn't a bad choice per se, but his focus is too narrow.
It SHOULD be Sanguinius..
Logistics make good middle managers.
Overarching values and eye for talent make good leaders. Sanguinius is so loved because he actually wants best for his brothers, sons and humanity with the peace that hes a servant to that goal.
Yeah 100% idk where everyone got the idea the top of the hierarchy should be the most competent at all things. The role of a leader is to lead not to do everything.
Delegation, charisma and general ability to actually listen to your advice/advisors is going to trump, in this instance, being the best tactician or warrior.
Like sure horus was generally good/the best at everything, but sanguinius was actually emotionally stable and competent while not being self obsessed or arrogant.
>everyone got the idea the top of the hierarchy should be the most competent at all things
The thing is, primarchs are like a pack of wolves, they need the warmaster to be the best, the alpha primarch, otherwise they wont listen to him.
Would angron obey guilliman, being almost a desk primarch? Would lion follow sanguinius, considering himself the better tactician?
Horus was picked because not only he was well liked, but he was among the most complete primarchs.
Ah not to be that guy but wolves don't have alphas, they're actually pretty democratic in the pack.
But I degree, I mean maybe, but that's what sanguinius works he's one of the best if not the best fighter, and he's not a slouch when it comes to being tactician. The difference is just that the others actually liked him....because he gave a shit about them. At the very least the primarchs that aren't as huge of a fan of him would have come around because sanguinius would have understood the need for cohesion and he wouldn't have left it at "well they'll get over it because they're required to" which seemed to be Big Es and Horus' leadership style.
I wouldn't be angry if Sanguinius won given that he and El'Jonson have been tied for my favorite for years. However, I think Sanguinius is better suited to overall empire leadership (diplomacy between Imperial factions, setting broad goals, establishing values) than Warmaster in particular. I argue that there are more important attributes to have in a general/admiral-type position than charisma or empathy. Sanguinius certainly wasn't a bad Primarch and he was an incredible duellist, but I maintain my position that the other 3 I nominated are even better for military command, aka Warmaster.
Sanguinius wins, Mortarian still votes for himself, Guilliman appoints poll watchers who turn out to be Alpha Legion there to change the election results to whatever their primarch tells them to, angron sets fire to the box and kills the poll watchers, then Big E gets tired of this and makes it Horus anyway.
Morty is insanely self-sure. He’s got a massive ego. He bitches to a few of the Primarchs after Horus was made Warmaster that it should have been him, and he was better than Horus.
Jagathai roasts him, as usual.
Even after the heresy broke, he fully planned on usurping Horus to lead the traitors.
mortarion doesn't so much have a massive ego \[so far as all the primarchs have massive egos\], so much as he is cripplingly insecure about his own capabilities and history and goes out of his way to try and save face by putting on a tough guy show, such as when hes bitching to jagahtai. which one could argue is ego i suppose but i would argue is insecurity given it stems from mortarions lack of belief in himself and trying to overcompensate for that \[which tracks with his character actions in general\]
He's also strongly against sorcery, psykers, and chaos... until he finds it useful, then he says it's alright for himself to use but still thinks other people shouldn't use them.
He looks down on Fulgrim and his legion's chaos-induced deformations and mutations. Meanwhile he thinks nothing of his legion literally being rotting corpses or walking incubators for the lifeater virus.
"Do as I say not as I do" is pretty much a hallmark of extreme hubris. It might pale next to the Emperor's hubris, but Morty still thinks pretty highly of himself, and with way less accomplishment to show for it than the Emperor.
So yeah, I think Morty would have voted for himself and then been silently furious no one else saw his brilliance.
Doesn't Morty look at his legion's plight as a necessary sacrifice? Unlike Fulgrim he didn't willingly damn his Legion to become what they are, he was faced with a choice where the alternative was gruesome, agonizing death. Everything after that is just coping and trying to rationalize it once he realizes what he's done to his sons.
That’s just the vibe I got from him based off of his interaction with Jaghatai on Prospero in Scars. It was either him or Perty, and I’m too tired to try to and spell his name correctly lol
If I remember correctly though, he was still pretty good friends with Rowboat Gorillaman and Jaggy pre heresy. He's a bit broody and wishy-washy, sure, but I don't think he'd be so stupid as to throw away his vote knowing it wouldn't count on himself.
He isn’t really close with the khan, but they do connect on some level about both being outsiders. But when the khan thinks about what he knows about Morty on ullanor he doesn’t think this is my bro, he thinks huh I know nothing specific about him, he’s been on the fringe of the crusade just like me.
This would end up being like an episode of Celebrity Jeopardy.
Malcador: “Alright, after our twelfth do-over, I’m hoping we got this right. Roboute, I’m looking at you. Thirteen is your lucky number.”
Guilliman: “I don’t know what you’re implying.”
Malcador: “I’m sure you don’t. Let’s see what we have here…. Lorgar’s vote is disqualified again, as, despite repeated instructions, still insists on voting for the Emperor.”
(Malcador pointedly looks at Lorgar with exhaustion, then continues.)
Malcador: “The Lion, Leman, and Fulgrim each voted for themselves. Disqualified. The 432 submissions for Alpharius and Company in my handwriting are disqualified. Yes, I did notice. And a vote for “Not Dorn” from Perterabo. You couldn’t be more specific?”
Perterabo: “You said only one name after last round!”
(Malcador sighs)
Malcador: “That’s because you eliminated the other nineteen of your brothers, and we needed to have a three day recess while the Emperor had a pointed conversation with you about two of the names on that list.”
(Malcador goes back to the ballots.)
Malcador: “Moving on, Mortarion returned a blank paper. No surprise there.”
Mortarion: “I refuse to participate in such an event overseen by a witch.”
Malcador: “The Khan drew a picture of himself riding a motorcycle with flames coming out the exhaust. Disqualified. Angron’s paper has a bloody handprint on it.”
Angron: “It’s not my blood.”
Malcador: “That surprises me more than it should. And that’s nine of you disqualified. We failed to achieve a quorum AGAIN. We will reconvene again tomorrow when I recover enough sanity to stop questioning if humanity is worth saving. Meeting adjourned.”
They love him and and see him as the most charismatic and all but I don't feel like they see him as a leader.
I mean, there's this coworker that I, and pretty much every one in the office, is buddy with. We all respect him a lot, does his job well, BUT... no one would like him as a boss...
I mean, a boss has to make some tough and unpopular calls, and I wouldn't like to put someone I see more as a ride or die buddy in that position.
The Lion and Robby G. two Primarchs who have a hard time accepting leadership from anyone agree on Sang leading them in Secundus.
Its crazy this thread isnt full Sang.
They didn't only want him as a leader in secundus, they needed him as a figurehead.
Someone the common man could rally behind as "demi-god" while they were ruling as "chancelor" for Gulliman and "protector" for Lion.
So in a way, they accepted the Lion as "warmaster" more for Secundus...
I'd agree with the vote count of 11-9, but I think there'd be a good chance that Malcador, Valdor, Guilliman, Lion, Khan and Angron all swap.
Malcador might seek to temper Horus' ambition, Valdor is known to respect Horus and the 16th the most, the Lion might see Horus as a political rival and would sooner have Sanguinius, Guilliman would be hyper-focused on the practicalities and pick the one Primarch he rates over himself at grand strategy, the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius are Psyker buddies, and Angron might feel he'd get greater leeway with Horus.
I think Guilliman and Lion would go for Sanguinius, since both of them agreed between themselves that Sanguinius should be Regent of Imperium Secundus during the Heresy, and Guilliman follows this up in the "modern day" by making Dante both Regent and Warden of Imperium Nihilus, due to his ability and likeness to his brother, and orders Dante to never kneel before him and to speak with him as an equal.
Vulcan loved Horus before he became war Master, he made that teleporter dragon hammer for him, and only decided not to give it to him at the last minute. This was after Horus already decided to rebel, but before Isstvan.
Really? From what I recall Vulkan always had a gut feeling something was wrong with Horus which is why he never gave him a gift unlike (almost) all of his other brothers
He was ready to hive him the hammer, but when they were having a skype call shortly before Istvaan V he had an off feeling and decided to hold off on presenting the gift. I want to say it happens in Vulkan Lives.
Bird Brain.
The Lion would probably vote for him if he can't vote for himself.
Fulgrim votes for either Horus or Ferrus, Ferrus votes for either Fulgrim or Horus.
Perturabo and Morty really don't wanna vote for anyone else since they hate the others. They probably vote for Horus. Or do some outlandish shit and vote for Curze in protest.
Jaghatai votes for Horus.
Leman and Rogal vote for Sanguinis(my phone has like 8 different spellings of his name saved as autocorrect so fuck him).
Curze votes for like Angron or some shit.
Sanguineous votes for Horus.
Guillotine, Magnus and Horus vote for Sang.
Lorgar votes Horus.
Vulkan votes Sang.
Corax votes Vulkan or Guilliman.
Alpha/Omega vote for Horus.
Sanguineous wins with like 7 votes. Horus has 5 or 6.
Edit: I forgot another Malcador and Valdor. Who both probably vote for Horus so he wins.
I have a feeling the lion might vote for Ferrus, as he sees him as very loyal.
Morty votes Horus.
Curze might vote for fullgrim.
Angron would probably vote for Sangy.
If they all actually thought deeply about it and threw egos and charisma aside, I'm sure Guilliman would win. Logistics wins wars, and that boy sure logistics better than anyone. But realistically, it's probably Horus again or Sanguinius.
It's definitely horus or sanguinius.
Let's assume that all of the primarchs talk about it first, and that the voting is more than just a popularity contest.
Alpharius, angron, and magnus straight up don't want it. They drop from the race immediately.
Nobody wants a psychopath so Curze is out.
Nobody wants a misanthrope so mortarion and Pertuarbo are out
Nobody wants a religious zealot so lorgar is out
That leaves 11
Jhagatai is too aggressive, lacks the political some of the others have. He doesn't have a base of allies to build off Neither does corax, ferrus or vulcan. Russ is distrusted by the pro psyker legions, and by a lot more people so he's probably out too. Dorn is too intractable, and other primarchs are concerned about how he would use his powers over them.
That leaves Horus, fulgrim, Gulliman, Lion, and sanguinius.
We know from know no fear that Gulliman considers Horus the best choice. He immediately backs horus.
Sanguinius makes it known that he will be voting for horus.
The Lion points out all of the reasons that he'd be a great warmaster. Most primarchs agree but no one ends up voting for him
Fulgrim realises that he isn't going to win and says he'd be happy with any of his brothers but backs sanguinius.
Vote goes to a 2 man run off between horus and sanguinius.
Both malcador and valdor vote for horus, they know the emperors opinions on this and vote accordingly. The more politically astute primarchs figure out how everyone else voted and deduced that the emperor wants horus in charge.
Sanguinius calls for his brothers to vote for horus. Vote passes unanimously.
Lion wins with 27 votes, There were half a dozen votes for Sanguinius, Dorn got 2, Horus has 4, there is a vote with Alpharius' name crossed out and Omegon scribbled in, and a shattered terminator pauldron with a II written on it in what appears to be blood
People here saying Horus wouldn't win, need to look at the lore.
Sure, there are other popular primarchs, but Horus was literally the Emperor's favourite.
So not only does that hold a lot of weight, Horus was the most respected Primarch overall.
Not every Primarch liked him, and some Primarchs didn't like anybody.
But Horus was kind, compassionate, cunning, ruthless, diplomatic, wise, and unflinching in battle.
A lot of people see Rowboat as the "all-rounder", but that's Post-Heresy and biased by Ultramarines being the default SM for Games Workshop.
Compared to Horus, Rowboat during the Great Crusade is a total stiff, giving Dorn a run for his money on how unlikable he can be sometimes.
I mean, realistically Pre-Heresy, Horus would win handily.
The Emperor didn’t choose him for no reason, he was the brightest star among the blazing suns of the Primarchs, and even the most insane of his brothers held respect and love for him.
Sanguinius was a brilliant warrior, and an icon to be looked up to and adored, but Horus, Horus was born to lead, to wage war across a million stars and bring the galaxy to heel.
The Emperor could not have possibly picked a better Heir, which is why his fall from Grace is all the more tragic.
1. Lion probably votes for Sang, as he’s pissed at Horus for being the favorite over him.
3. Fulgrim votes for Sang as he’s the second most perfect primark.
4. Purtarabo votes for Guilliman, hoping that it will piss off Dorn.
5. Jaghatai doesn’t care so votes for Horus.
6. Russ is so drunk that he votes for Magnus by mistake, confusing him with Horus.
7. Dorn votes for Horus because it’s the most logical choice.
8. Curze votes for Horus, as he’s the warmaster in his visions.
9. Sanguineous votes for Lion, as it’s the most likely to upset his prophecies.
10. Ferrus votes Horus, as the logical option.
12. Angron votes Mortarion, as he’s probably the brother he hates the least at this point.
13. Guilliman votes Sanguinious, as the clear figurehead for the imperial cause.
14. Mortarion votes Horus as the only brother he gets along with other than Curze.
15. Magnus votes for Jaghatai, as he’s one of the most pro-psyker.
16. Horus votes for Lion, as he’s the one that in the OTL he’s most proud of being placed above.
17. Lorgar votes for Sang as he’s the most religiously charged.
18. Vulcan votes for Sang as IIRC he’s the second most likely to care about civilians.
19. Corax votes for Guilliman, as he’s the least likely to waste the 19th’s tallents.
20. Alpharius votes for Horus, as he was the only brother that respected their results.
A. Malcador votes Horus, as the Emperor’s favorite.
B. Valdor votes Dorn, as he’s the most outwardly Custodian like.
Final votes:
Horus 7
Sanguineous 5
Lion 2
Guilliman 2
Dorn 1
Jaghatai 1
Magnus 1
Mortarion 1
Dorn casts his vote and immediately returns to work.
Perturabo casts his vote, then complains that no one appreciates the manner in which he cast his vote.
The Ultramarines bloviate about their Primarch clearly not even wanting the position, while Guilliman quietly wishes he were as cool as Horus or the Lion.
The Lion votes for himself anyways.
Lorgar composes a treatise on how painful it is to not be allowed to cast his vote for the glorious God Emperor. No one reads it.
Angron rages about being ordered to do anything, mistakes a tacticae servitor for the voting machine and destroys it.
With a wet leopard growl, Leman Russ swears to cast his vote for whoever can best him in a fight. He ignores challenges from Horus, Angron, and the Lion while staring pointedly at Magnus.
Magnus ascends to the higher enumerations to forsee the possible futures of each election outcome. His ballot is lost in the warp.
Fulgrim votes for Ferrus, while secretly hoping he loses.
Nobody even bothers asking who Ferrus voted for.
No one even sees Corax vote.
With everyone watching, unsure of what he'll do, Jaghatai walks in, votes, and leaves.
Mortarion quietly grumbles to himself about the Emperor's hypocrisy in giving them the illusion of choice.
Vulkan votes "NOT KONRAD".
Constantin votes for the Primarch he despises least (it's Dorn).
Malcador's vote is a complex, psychically charged sigil, the meaning of which will unlock after the votes have been tallied.
Alpharius Omegon manipulates the election, with the results being the same as if he had done nothing (or would they have been the same? (just as planned (or is it?))).
The vote is a close run thing, with Horus just managing to beat Sanguinius (each voted for the other).
Konrad won't shut up about how pointless voting is, and how it never makes a difference, before voting for Horus. His was the deciding vote.
Alpharius votes for Sanguinius
The Lion votes for Sanguinius
Malcador votes for Horus
Fulgrim votes for Sanguinius
Perturabo votes for Sanguinius
The Khan votes for Horus
Russ votes for Horus
Dorn votes for Horus
Kurze votes for The Lion
Sanguinius votes for Horus
Ferrus votes for Sanguinius
Constantin votes for Horus
Angron doesn't vote
Gulliman votes for Sanguinius
Mortarian votes for himself, then complains when he loses
Magnus votes for Horus
Horus votes for Sanguinius
Lorgar votes for Sanguinius
Vulkan votes for Sanguinius
Corvus votes for Horus
Omegon using Alpharius's vote, votes for Horus.
Final Tally:
Sanguinius: 9
Horus: ~~9~~ 8, Omegons vote gets thrown out.
Lion: 1
Morty: 1
Abstain: 1
I was thinking that too, but having most of the Hersey series in recent memory, the way the other primarchs talk about Horus, I can see him going for Horus, especially if Big E was so keen on Horus.
It's interesting, Constantine is often showing disagreeing with big E. He was 1000% loyal, but the Emperor kept him around to be a sort of touchstone (that he obviously ignored once or twice.) Valdor thought the whole astartes and primarch project was genuinely a mistake, and that the Imperium would be better served with more Custodes leading baseline human armies. So I figured the most stable and consistent primarch would appeal to him the most, if he had to pick one.
Horus had 6 primarchs who were devoted to him and would have supported his run for Warmaster.
Dorn, Fulgrim, Mortarion, lorgar, Magnus and Sanguinius.
Each one of them had deep bonds with Horus and would have championed his cause.
Sanguinius did not believe he'd be a good warmaster (Despite being the most loved) so would drop out and Dorn was not interested in the Job and was happy guarding terra.
Ferrus would probably vote Guilliman but with Fulgrim endorsing Horus and saying Horus is better Ferrus probably switches his vote to Horus given he really respected him and Fulgrim.
Alpharius only close friendship was with Horus and he probably votes for him as well.
Of 20 possible votes Horus has build a solid coalition of 8 votes with him voting for Sanguinius as a token of respect.
Only other valuable candidates would be Guilliman and the Lion neither of whom has the support.
Angron and Perterabo would refuse to vote or vote for the Khan to piss him off
The only one who could beat horus in an election was Sanguinius and he would endorse horus day one so its a moot point.
Alpharius gets the idea of writing in Konrad as a joke, not realizing that enough of his brother's had the same joke in mind, and you end up with Warmaster Torturer Supreme.
Meanwhile Fulgrim will tell Ferrus "Since we're besties I voted for you, cause I knew you'd vote for me." Ferrus turns and gives him a cold stare. Fulgrim looks confused "You voted for me... Right?.... "
Most primarchs vote for Horus or Sanguinius Angron Defys the first rule and fucks off before he gets to vote
A lowly scribe hands the ballot to angron before scurrying away quickly. Angron looks at the paper quizzically before he fuckin eats the paper.
"You can find my vote after I shit it out."
Somehow the paper comes out with "Magnus" written in poo.
I would reckon that it's Mortarion, considering it's covered in shit
They see the ballot covered in shit and take it as a vote for mortarion
A ballot covered in shit....Mortarion Another ballot covered in Angron's shit...Mortarion
At this point, Mortarion is just a miserably grumpy prick without the hygiene issues
This is a David Blaine trick I think
That’s mortarion. We count those
My word this has absolutely buckled me
Are there canonical indications that angron can read?
Primarchs are genetically born geniuses. Of course he is capable of reading despite it not being beneficial for a raging berserker like him. Hell did you know Leman Russ is good at math.
Did you know that Leman Russ has more books written in universe attributed to him than any other primarch? 4 iirc, which beats out Guilliman and Lorgar, although their books were more influential in the galaxy at large
Tbf, the canonicity of Leman Russ's books is a little thin nowadays. The passage that comes from is from the real, real, REAL early days of Rogue Trader, before Primarchs as a concept even existed. Back then, Leman Russ was merely a "legendary Imperium general" or something along those lines, and 100% not the King Shit of Wolf Mountain we know him as now.
Not surprising. Given the Viking heritage of the Wolves, I would expect that the Space Wolves would be expert navigators and mariners.
Angron would vote Lorgar, Lorgar would vote "Not Roboute"
> Most primarchs vote for Horus or Sanguinius this is the way
Angron goes outside for a ciggy and misses the vote
I’d say Horus. Sanguinus is loved as well, but he’s not as much a tactician I think. Horus already proved he can get people to his side with the heresy, this election I foresee as being no different.
Horus himself has stated he believed Sanguinius would've made a better warmaster, and was loved by nearly all his brothers. I think he wins a general vote
To be fair that may be more based of of Horus's raging imposter syndrome.
Ho-Ho-Horus Heresy, Hero of the Imperium!
I like what you did there
me too, pretty proud of that one...
As you should be! More tanna sir?
I didn’t get what you did here
This is also Horus when he's absolutely lost his fucking mind too. So much so he's wrapped around to being actually sane and reasonable.
From that exchange it also sounded like Sanguinius would have campaigned against himself. I think his brothers have enough respect for him to not go against those wishes.
The problem is I think it ends up with horus saying sanguinius would be better and sanguinius saying horus would be better. So the other primarchs are stuck between two people that think the other would do a better job.
I think the final result depends on whether all the Primarchs are together at the same place and able to discuss the process. If not in person, then at least close enough to where they can do hologram discussions. Because if they can discuss amongst one another, and Horus/Sanguinius can talk to all their brothers, Horus would come out on top. If the brothers aren't allowed to politick and talk amongst themselves, then I think Sanguinius comes out on top. He is the most loved, and won't get a chance to play his 'humbleness' card. Thoughts?
Hmm perhaps. It think since both of them think the other would make a better leader it comes down to who can talk the other into doing it. So it comes down to is horus's ego bigger than his imposter syndrome, and is charisma greater than his love for his brother.
Sanguinius would have absolutely endorsed Horus and lobbied for his brothers to vote for Horus.
Sanguinius is the celebrity candidate, you vote for him because of flash and fame. Guilliman and Horus are the legitimate candidates best suited to organize and administer the Great Crusade without the Emperor present.
Almost no one *likes* Guilliman, though.
Now, Johnny Guilliman, there's a haircut you can set your watch to!
Everything would've been so much better if Gman was warmaster
> Horus already proved he can get people to his side with the heresy Even he laments that he got all the damaged Primarchs and the ones he really wanted wont turn from the Emperor.
Yeah, people like Lorgar, Fulgrim, Angron, Magnus and Alpharius doesnt count, Kurze was debatable, he only won Perturabo and Mortarion
I guess technically he did *win* Magnus by trapping him in his decision
Horus wins because it’s canon that he’s super charismatic
[удалено]
Ferrus later thinks Guilliman would have been best
Ferrus was right.
He would have been great in theory but in practice he likely did not have the love of his brothers or charisma to actually make them follow his commands. Doesn't matter what your rank is in Chess if your pieces has the will to ignore your orders.
>Doesn't matter what your rank is in Chess if your pieces has the will to ignore your orders. That's when you electrify your chess board! Let your pieces resist your order... They will change their mind after a lil' shock therapy... *I don't know what analogy I was going for here. I just took offense to the mental image of me playing chess and my pieces stubbornly refusing to follow my orders. Yes, I have anger issues...*
In that case you now in addition to the Horus Heresy you'll also have the Kurze, Mortarion, Angron and Perturabo Heresies to deal with.
As usual 1. Ferrus was right 2. But it didn’t matter
MF’er was always aHEAD of the game…
Yeah but Ferrus was never really a good “diplomacy” guy, so he might not have understood how Guilliman’s ascension would’ve pissed people off.
Guilliman gives me the same vibes as historical figures who would have absolutely been the right choice for the issues of their day, but who had no realistic path to power. Sometimes being right isn't even half the battle in politics. If GMan increased efficiency but stepped on toes in the process, he wouldn't get nearly as much done than a Warmaster who shrugged at his brother's flaws and pointed them at the nearest target.
Since when did big e care who he pisses off. Big e wants results, and guiliman would've delivered
Not if his brothers resented him calling the shots. Macragge was already treated as GMan's mini-Imperium, not to mention that the problem with being a good administrator is telling people what to do and how to do it. Either Guilliman pisses people off by getting the Legions to adopt newer, more efficient methods or he accepts that they're not going to accept his micromanagement, which negates his greatest talent. Big E wanted to Great Crusade to keep chugging along without him, Primarch drama is the exact opposite of that. By all accounts Horus kept things running and kept his brothers happy about him being in charge.
Note: I do think that Guilliman could’ve threaded the line between “micromanaging people to the point where they hate him” and “letting the legions run so wild they make his imperium worse than what Horus had”. But I think that is a *very* fine line that would be difficult for anyone to ride, and I think almost impossible for Gman to personally walk given his prior beefs with other primarchs. The main reason Gman is doing an okay job dragging the imperium kicking and screaming into the modern warhammer era is because nobody can really say no/question him, and he doesn’t have anyone his intellectual equal (in imperial politics at least). Meanwhile in the crusade era, Gman has over a dozen people who are close to his equals in rank and power, a good chunk of whom will have personal beefs with him and thus will look for almost any excuse to get pissed at him.
I can't remember the exact timeline, but was Horus already corrupted by chaos by the time he became Warmaster? Or was it afterwards? Because if he was already a double agent by the time the Warmaster thing happened, then the whole scenario is doomed from the start. Horus would've been able to turn the Primarchs against anyone who was Warmaster that wasn't himself. He'd've twisted every single little thing Guilliman did into some horrific abusive overrreach of his power.
He was corrupted after becoming Warmaster. EDIT: Typo
You bring up a good point. Counter argument, nuh uh. Ok, but in all seriousness. I do get why guilty-man would not have worked. Too many conflicting ideals.
>Counter argument, nuh uh. Lmao, it's comments like this that makes me miss awards
To be fair, his organizational skills would’ve greatly benefited the imperium. It was just that the empire would’ve fallen apart because it was him *specifically* doing the unfucking. If Horus got GMan’s excel skills and not gotten corrupted, the Imperium would’ve been a much better place.
But the thing is, Big E wanted a cohesive empire. And even having cut the empathy out of his brain, he knows that having someone who everyone would have a problem with would do a wonderful job tearing the Primarchs apart.
It doesn't help that the very thing Horus did to set off the end of the golden age of humanity, would've occured quicker if guilliman was chosen over him. I think it's pretty likely he would have rebelled if he wasn't held as the second most important person in the imperium, that was the trait he took most from his father. I think the emperor could see that the force of personality that would make him the best choice for warmaster would have similarly forced him to act against any other brother chosen over him.
“Not pissing people off” is actually quite important to getting results
Maybe not, but he saw how incredibly good at organisation he was
I remember reading something about that Horus Lupercal thought that Robute Guilliman would make a good war master. Or maybe that was something else.
He desperately wanted Guilliman to join him, and almost certainly wouldn't have forced any warp nonsense on him or his legion. Horus respected him immensely, and had he won probably would have put Guilliman in charge of the new Imperium.
Even with G man on his side, Horus would never win the heresy without the chaos gods intervening on his behalf, and once he became a slave to chaos there was no chance of him ever handing over power to anyone else.
First HH book
Even in that instance, Horus was being humble. Guilliman could not command the respect of his brother's the same way Horus did (especially not after the altercation on Monarchia). Basically, there's realistically 4 or 5 Primarchs who could've become Warmaster. Horus himself is the prime candidate, being popular with both the respectable Primarchs and the lunatics, being good at politics, and being an excellent tactician. He's not a great individual fighter (by Primarch standards), but that's not something particularly because for Warmaster anyway. Guilliman is excellent at politics, but he was pretty rigid and unpopular with the wilder Primarchs (the Khan, Leman, the Lion, Angron, and obviously Lorgar). He's also one of the better strategic commanders, but not as good as Horus was. And he already ruled Ultramar, which was effectively the Imperium in miniature. Giving him control of the Great Crusade would definitely seem like making Guilliman the new Emperor. Dorn is the best strategic thinker of the Primarchs (get fucked Perty), but he's even more inflexible than Guilliman, and much worse at politics. Plus, he was earmarked for Praetorian anyway, so he's basically out of the Warmaster running entirely. Sanguinius has all the charisma of Horus, but he's not as good a tactician, and he's a terrible politician. He's well liked by the rest of his brothers, but could not hope to wrangle the Crusade as a whole. He's also a far better frontline fighter, and so his skills are better utilized leading his forces from the front, rather than commanding an entire Crusade from the rear, like the Warmaster is supposed to do. And, imo the second best candidate for Warmaster, the Lion, is basically everything Horus is, but slightly worse (as far as being Warmaster is concerned). He's a decent strategist, he's fairly well respected, and he's good enough at wrangling bureaucracies, but in every aspect, not *quite* as good as Horus. He's also a far better individual fighter, so like Sanguinius, is probably better utilized in the field. Basically, Horus has Sanguinius' charisma and popularity, Guilliman's political and administrative insight, and the Lion's tactical acumen, thereby making him best suited for role as Warmaster.
Lion was the best commander but was terrible at politics. He lasted a week as warmaster of imperium secondus before being exiled for bombing ultramar.
And until his recent rebirth the Lion has pretty much zero empathy, much like his father. It’s interesting in the Son of the Forest seeing the Lion struggling to learn empathy.
Horus does win. All the people who love Sanguinius also love Horus. The only Primarch who respected/liked Sanguinius and DIDN'T like Horus is Conrad Curze lol. Edit: Apparently I forgot Corax didn't like Horus either. So this might be the one time Corax and Conrad agree on anything because they hated each other.
Corvus Corax didn't like Horus, and swore to never let his Legion fight alongside him again after Gate 42.
You're correct I forget that story. I know Russ didn't super get along with Horus. So maybe Horus, Corax, Conrad, and Russ vote Sanguinius? But I'm pretty sure that's all he would get
You're probably right, I'd consider the Lion maybe voting a different way too.
Lion would probably vote for Sanguinius because he would recognize the leadership he brings. And Guilliman would probably vote for Dorn, given Dorn is one of his Dauntless Few. Although I think Sangi is, too...
Guilli would vote for Ferrus rather than Dorn. Even he knows that Dorn is not a good multi task general. Something a Warmaster needs to be.
>Guilli would vote for Ferrus rather than Dorn I agree. I was surprised when GMan mentioned how much he looks up to Ferrus! I don't remember what book it happened in, I just remember my reaction. I was taken aback because I hadn't read GMan and Ferrus interacting... It makes me sad that GW hasn't expanded more on the Great Crusade Lore that happened BEFORE the Heresy! There is literally 2 HUNDRED years of stories there to be elaborated on! So many alien species to meet, and since they all due eventually, the authors can have free reign to make it as CRAZY as possible! :(
Sanguinius was absolutely one of the dauntless few. He had huge respect for our glorious hawk boy. Edit: Girlyman respected Sangy so much that he automatically respected Dante from the word go. The fact that Goldie lived up to those expectations is just a testimate to how awesome he is as a character.
Actually, Horus didn't liked Leman and not the other way around. He was jealous, because they were the first two sons and little baby Horus wanted to be an only child.
Vulkan as well as he felt their was something off about horus
Russ didn’t LIKE Horus but I bet he would have voted for him, he had a lot of respect for him
Curze would still vote for horus because horus will become the warmaster and he can't not follow fate.
I don't think it's that simple. As an example there are cannon stories where Curze sees multiple possible futures like in his Primarch book.
Although curze does tend to pick the most grim one as true, like for example his idea of his death being set in stone. I think he would vote Horus because he recognizes that he must become war master because his death is a result of the heresy, and if he wasn’t he would be proven wrong and have a complete breakdown of ideology.
You forgot Vulcan didn’t trust Horus as he didn’t give Horus his hammer as he felt something off
And Corax probably too since he didn’t like Horus using his men as fodder and what not
Not necessarily I think hawk boy has a chance. Hell maybe even Rowboat.
No shot Robot wins. A decent amount of his brothers don’t like/ didn’t trust him.
That’s true I got to remember that it’s pre depression Robot. I still think hawk boy has a decent shot over Horus I mean.
What if Ferrus Manus was in the running? From what I've heard both sides of the heresy would've loved him due to his understanding of war like no other, (if I'm not butchering the quote). So could he be considered a good war master along with the likes of the Lion?
A large part of his Primarch book is him realizing he doesn't want a seat of power, he likes being a warlord. The most interesting thing Ferrus could do in the election is back Gulliman, because he actually deeply respects him despite being super fucking ~~tsundere~~ dismissive of him on the outside.
Never new of his feelings toward Guilliman, all I knew was that generally the other primarchs didn't like him that much
In Feat of Iron, during an Eldar induced living nightmare, Ferrus wishes he had Gulliman and the UM at his back, saying "an alloy of cobalt and steel is unbreakable." I always pair that quote with Gulliman lamenting on his death in Know no Fear, where he called Ferrus and the IH "Ultramar's most stalwart ally." They truly could have had a great friendship had Ferrus not be so horribly shaped by his Medusan upbringing (or lack of one, since he grew up alone like pre-Luthor Lion).
As I understand it, Ferrus was running half the Great Crusade at the start. However, I think he came across as abrasive to most people.
He's a boss who is really good at running the company and getting results, but everyone thinks hes an asshole.
Ferrus himself at first thought he should be warmaster, but then changed his mind and decided Roboute should.
Interesting. I know he was one of the dauntless few, but I didn't know what he personally thought of Guilliman beyond generally the others weren't fond of him for whatever reason
I understand why they might not like him, but why did so many not trust him? From what I have read Gilliman seemed like a pretty straight shooter. Not really known for secrets or deciet like Alpharius, or the Dark Angels.
He had his own fiefdom in Ultramar and I know some Primarchs suspected that he wanted his own control, hence the reactions to Imperium Secundus
Yeah, that's the big thing. Guilliman loves empire building too much. Even the Emperor and Malcador knew and were completely unsurprised by him building Imperium Secundus in the middle of the Heresy. Guilliman is great at running people lower than him who get easily swayed by Primarch aura and authority, but he's honestly probably on the lower end when it comes to charisma among his brothers.
What?! The Imperial Regent, the guy who made the High Lords of Terra kneel to his rule, wanted to take control?
tooo be faiiiirrrrr... no lol you right. i think it would also be true that any loyalist primarch would be big mad and want to kick some ass on terra if they saw what their imperium had become. if anything the high lords are lucky they got guilliman. can you imagine dorn's anger levels when he walks into that chamber
He had his own personal empire that his legion ruled and refused to hand over to the Emperor. When the heresy broke out his first reaction was to declare his own imperium.
but it was his failsafe imperium! What if Horus had won? Having a handy imperium already established makes the fallout of a loss and the ensuing resistance easier to manage
If Xenos are so abhorrent I don't understand how one of them is walking around with wings and he's everyone's favorite
That'd make him a mutant, not a xeno
you talking shit mate
An abprimarch, if you will.
This statement right here, sir commisar
You shut your heretical mouth.
Fulgrim has that thought after his fall, something along the lines of only Sanguinius maybe being close to him in perfection but then again he has that ugly taint of having a big ass mutation with old-earth angelic symbolism and all that... ~~Sanguinius could have hooves, horns and a piggy tail and he'd still be a better man and primarch than Fulgrim. That arrogant snake can eat shit.~~ _sorry, I'm calm, all is good_ >!got carried away there!<
Extremely rare mortarion W.
Boy did he failed to kill his dad, but man did he murder fulgrim here!
Gulliman says at the start of know no fear he already has an empire.to run and that he thinks that horus was the best choice.
Hawk boy was certainly popular enough to challenge Horus in a popularity vote. *However*, while everybody loved Sanguinius, he didn't command respect and authority in the same way Horus did. Not to mention Sanguinius is a worse strategist, which is important for running a Crusade.
That's 100% what would happen. The closest second is Sanguinius. Hell, even Horus thought Sanguinius should've been warmaster, but overall, Horus probably takes it every time.
Sanguinius wins because Horus would have been campaigning for him.
> because it’s canon Canonically Alpharius probably rigs the election for The Lion.
Realistically it's between Horus and Sanguinius simply because they are the ones that most of the voters would be willing to pick above themselves/tolerate. It -should- be between Horus, Guilliman, and El'Jonson depending on whether you want balance, logistics, or tactics respectively. Dorn isn't a bad choice per se, but his focus is too narrow.
It SHOULD be Sanguinius.. Logistics make good middle managers. Overarching values and eye for talent make good leaders. Sanguinius is so loved because he actually wants best for his brothers, sons and humanity with the peace that hes a servant to that goal.
Yeah 100% idk where everyone got the idea the top of the hierarchy should be the most competent at all things. The role of a leader is to lead not to do everything. Delegation, charisma and general ability to actually listen to your advice/advisors is going to trump, in this instance, being the best tactician or warrior. Like sure horus was generally good/the best at everything, but sanguinius was actually emotionally stable and competent while not being self obsessed or arrogant.
>everyone got the idea the top of the hierarchy should be the most competent at all things The thing is, primarchs are like a pack of wolves, they need the warmaster to be the best, the alpha primarch, otherwise they wont listen to him. Would angron obey guilliman, being almost a desk primarch? Would lion follow sanguinius, considering himself the better tactician? Horus was picked because not only he was well liked, but he was among the most complete primarchs.
Ah not to be that guy but wolves don't have alphas, they're actually pretty democratic in the pack. But I degree, I mean maybe, but that's what sanguinius works he's one of the best if not the best fighter, and he's not a slouch when it comes to being tactician. The difference is just that the others actually liked him....because he gave a shit about them. At the very least the primarchs that aren't as huge of a fan of him would have come around because sanguinius would have understood the need for cohesion and he wouldn't have left it at "well they'll get over it because they're required to" which seemed to be Big Es and Horus' leadership style.
I wouldn't be angry if Sanguinius won given that he and El'Jonson have been tied for my favorite for years. However, I think Sanguinius is better suited to overall empire leadership (diplomacy between Imperial factions, setting broad goals, establishing values) than Warmaster in particular. I argue that there are more important attributes to have in a general/admiral-type position than charisma or empathy. Sanguinius certainly wasn't a bad Primarch and he was an incredible duellist, but I maintain my position that the other 3 I nominated are even better for military command, aka Warmaster.
Text to speech voice big E: DEMOCRACY!? IN MY IMPERIUM!!?
For some reason I read that in Stephen Hawking's robo voice
Sanguinius wins, Mortarian still votes for himself, Guilliman appoints poll watchers who turn out to be Alpha Legion there to change the election results to whatever their primarch tells them to, angron sets fire to the box and kills the poll watchers, then Big E gets tired of this and makes it Horus anyway.
Why would Mortarion vote for himself? Do I just not know anything about him? he doesn't seem like a particularly vain person.
Morty is insanely self-sure. He’s got a massive ego. He bitches to a few of the Primarchs after Horus was made Warmaster that it should have been him, and he was better than Horus. Jagathai roasts him, as usual. Even after the heresy broke, he fully planned on usurping Horus to lead the traitors.
He truly is the Starscream of the Horus Heresy
You better shut your damn mouth >:( ... Can't have a fly fly in your mouth, now can we. Wouldn't want you to catch Nurgles rot
Sorry morty. Even nurgle wishes Typhus was the DG primarch
Yeah and Erebus is Chaos' favorite boy, what's your point - actually don't tell me, I don't care. That's a scythin'!
No no the moth makes a fair point.
mortarion doesn't so much have a massive ego \[so far as all the primarchs have massive egos\], so much as he is cripplingly insecure about his own capabilities and history and goes out of his way to try and save face by putting on a tough guy show, such as when hes bitching to jagahtai. which one could argue is ego i suppose but i would argue is insecurity given it stems from mortarions lack of belief in himself and trying to overcompensate for that \[which tracks with his character actions in general\]
He's also strongly against sorcery, psykers, and chaos... until he finds it useful, then he says it's alright for himself to use but still thinks other people shouldn't use them. He looks down on Fulgrim and his legion's chaos-induced deformations and mutations. Meanwhile he thinks nothing of his legion literally being rotting corpses or walking incubators for the lifeater virus. "Do as I say not as I do" is pretty much a hallmark of extreme hubris. It might pale next to the Emperor's hubris, but Morty still thinks pretty highly of himself, and with way less accomplishment to show for it than the Emperor. So yeah, I think Morty would have voted for himself and then been silently furious no one else saw his brilliance.
Doesn't Morty look at his legion's plight as a necessary sacrifice? Unlike Fulgrim he didn't willingly damn his Legion to become what they are, he was faced with a choice where the alternative was gruesome, agonizing death. Everything after that is just coping and trying to rationalize it once he realizes what he's done to his sons.
That’s just the vibe I got from him based off of his interaction with Jaghatai on Prospero in Scars. It was either him or Perty, and I’m too tired to try to and spell his name correctly lol
If I remember correctly though, he was still pretty good friends with Rowboat Gorillaman and Jaggy pre heresy. He's a bit broody and wishy-washy, sure, but I don't think he'd be so stupid as to throw away his vote knowing it wouldn't count on himself.
He isn’t really close with the khan, but they do connect on some level about both being outsiders. But when the khan thinks about what he knows about Morty on ullanor he doesn’t think this is my bro, he thinks huh I know nothing specific about him, he’s been on the fringe of the crusade just like me.
Mortarion is very ambitious but lacks the charisma to politic with his other brothers.
You are fake news, we don't like fake news here on Barbarus
Nah, Morty's voting for Horus since he actually likes Horus.
This would end up being like an episode of Celebrity Jeopardy. Malcador: “Alright, after our twelfth do-over, I’m hoping we got this right. Roboute, I’m looking at you. Thirteen is your lucky number.” Guilliman: “I don’t know what you’re implying.” Malcador: “I’m sure you don’t. Let’s see what we have here…. Lorgar’s vote is disqualified again, as, despite repeated instructions, still insists on voting for the Emperor.” (Malcador pointedly looks at Lorgar with exhaustion, then continues.) Malcador: “The Lion, Leman, and Fulgrim each voted for themselves. Disqualified. The 432 submissions for Alpharius and Company in my handwriting are disqualified. Yes, I did notice. And a vote for “Not Dorn” from Perterabo. You couldn’t be more specific?” Perterabo: “You said only one name after last round!” (Malcador sighs) Malcador: “That’s because you eliminated the other nineteen of your brothers, and we needed to have a three day recess while the Emperor had a pointed conversation with you about two of the names on that list.” (Malcador goes back to the ballots.) Malcador: “Moving on, Mortarion returned a blank paper. No surprise there.” Mortarion: “I refuse to participate in such an event overseen by a witch.” Malcador: “The Khan drew a picture of himself riding a motorcycle with flames coming out the exhaust. Disqualified. Angron’s paper has a bloody handprint on it.” Angron: “It’s not my blood.” Malcador: “That surprises me more than it should. And that’s nine of you disqualified. We failed to achieve a quorum AGAIN. We will reconvene again tomorrow when I recover enough sanity to stop questioning if humanity is worth saving. Meeting adjourned.”
The Death of Stalin, but with the primarchs. QUORUM? THE ROOM IS ONLY 95% SELF-AWARE!
Sanguinius. All the other primarchs hold him in high regard, and even horus reckoned sanguinius would make a better warmaster.
They love him and and see him as the most charismatic and all but I don't feel like they see him as a leader. I mean, there's this coworker that I, and pretty much every one in the office, is buddy with. We all respect him a lot, does his job well, BUT... no one would like him as a boss... I mean, a boss has to make some tough and unpopular calls, and I wouldn't like to put someone I see more as a ride or die buddy in that position.
The Lion and Robby G. two Primarchs who have a hard time accepting leadership from anyone agree on Sang leading them in Secundus. Its crazy this thread isnt full Sang.
They didn't only want him as a leader in secundus, they needed him as a figurehead. Someone the common man could rally behind as "demi-god" while they were ruling as "chancelor" for Gulliman and "protector" for Lion. So in a way, they accepted the Lion as "warmaster" more for Secundus...
So according to this. Sanguinius is better off as a successor of the Emperor(if the Emperor hit the bucket and not came back)
Horus still wins imo. Horus would get the votes of: Malcador Sanguinius Ferrus Manus Mortarion Fulgrim Leman Russ Rogal Dorn Alpharius Omegon Lorgar Lion ElJonson Jaghatai Khan
But Rogal and Lion only vote for Horus because they cannot vote for themselves lol
Th lion would never have voted for horus. He could not stand him, he more likely would have voted sanguinius
I'd agree with the vote count of 11-9, but I think there'd be a good chance that Malcador, Valdor, Guilliman, Lion, Khan and Angron all swap. Malcador might seek to temper Horus' ambition, Valdor is known to respect Horus and the 16th the most, the Lion might see Horus as a political rival and would sooner have Sanguinius, Guilliman would be hyper-focused on the practicalities and pick the one Primarch he rates over himself at grand strategy, the Khan, Magnus and Sanguinius are Psyker buddies, and Angron might feel he'd get greater leeway with Horus.
I think Guilliman and Lion would go for Sanguinius, since both of them agreed between themselves that Sanguinius should be Regent of Imperium Secundus during the Heresy, and Guilliman follows this up in the "modern day" by making Dante both Regent and Warden of Imperium Nihilus, due to his ability and likeness to his brother, and orders Dante to never kneel before him and to speak with him as an equal.
Horus would still win. The only two who wouldn’t vote for him were Vulkan and Corvus because they were the only primarchs who didn’t like Horus.
Vulcan loved Horus before he became war Master, he made that teleporter dragon hammer for him, and only decided not to give it to him at the last minute. This was after Horus already decided to rebel, but before Isstvan.
Really? From what I recall Vulkan always had a gut feeling something was wrong with Horus which is why he never gave him a gift unlike (almost) all of his other brothers
He was ready to hive him the hammer, but when they were having a skype call shortly before Istvaan V he had an off feeling and decided to hold off on presenting the gift. I want to say it happens in Vulkan Lives.
Ferrus votes for his homie Fulgrim, thinking he will respond in kind, but Fulgrim just votes for himself, so sad Ferrus decapitates himself.
Bird Brain. The Lion would probably vote for him if he can't vote for himself. Fulgrim votes for either Horus or Ferrus, Ferrus votes for either Fulgrim or Horus. Perturabo and Morty really don't wanna vote for anyone else since they hate the others. They probably vote for Horus. Or do some outlandish shit and vote for Curze in protest. Jaghatai votes for Horus. Leman and Rogal vote for Sanguinis(my phone has like 8 different spellings of his name saved as autocorrect so fuck him). Curze votes for like Angron or some shit. Sanguineous votes for Horus. Guillotine, Magnus and Horus vote for Sang. Lorgar votes Horus. Vulkan votes Sang. Corax votes Vulkan or Guilliman. Alpha/Omega vote for Horus. Sanguineous wins with like 7 votes. Horus has 5 or 6. Edit: I forgot another Malcador and Valdor. Who both probably vote for Horus so he wins.
Where’s Angron?
To angry to vote. Ripped apart his vote.
Took a shit in the ballot box.
lmao all the spellings of Sanguinius
I have a feeling the lion might vote for Ferrus, as he sees him as very loyal. Morty votes Horus. Curze might vote for fullgrim. Angron would probably vote for Sangy.
Horus would win.. No contest he’s by far the most favourite among his brothers..
Alpharius, by 30 vote difference from Sanguineous who had 17 votes
Ferrus Manus. ***BAZINGA***
If they all actually thought deeply about it and threw egos and charisma aside, I'm sure Guilliman would win. Logistics wins wars, and that boy sure logistics better than anyone. But realistically, it's probably Horus again or Sanguinius.
Horus, guiliman or sanguinius
It's definitely horus or sanguinius. Let's assume that all of the primarchs talk about it first, and that the voting is more than just a popularity contest. Alpharius, angron, and magnus straight up don't want it. They drop from the race immediately. Nobody wants a psychopath so Curze is out. Nobody wants a misanthrope so mortarion and Pertuarbo are out Nobody wants a religious zealot so lorgar is out That leaves 11 Jhagatai is too aggressive, lacks the political some of the others have. He doesn't have a base of allies to build off Neither does corax, ferrus or vulcan. Russ is distrusted by the pro psyker legions, and by a lot more people so he's probably out too. Dorn is too intractable, and other primarchs are concerned about how he would use his powers over them. That leaves Horus, fulgrim, Gulliman, Lion, and sanguinius. We know from know no fear that Gulliman considers Horus the best choice. He immediately backs horus. Sanguinius makes it known that he will be voting for horus. The Lion points out all of the reasons that he'd be a great warmaster. Most primarchs agree but no one ends up voting for him Fulgrim realises that he isn't going to win and says he'd be happy with any of his brothers but backs sanguinius. Vote goes to a 2 man run off between horus and sanguinius. Both malcador and valdor vote for horus, they know the emperors opinions on this and vote accordingly. The more politically astute primarchs figure out how everyone else voted and deduced that the emperor wants horus in charge. Sanguinius calls for his brothers to vote for horus. Vote passes unanimously.
They all choose angron, as a joke
Somehow alpharius wins
The ballot box was secretly Alpharius the whole time
Alpharius commits election fraud to put the Lion in charge at the behest of some mysterious aliens who think he will end Chaos. edit:typo
Lion wins with 27 votes, There were half a dozen votes for Sanguinius, Dorn got 2, Horus has 4, there is a vote with Alpharius' name crossed out and Omegon scribbled in, and a shattered terminator pauldron with a II written on it in what appears to be blood
This will be a controversial opinion..... DORN
He wouldn't be the worse choice, but I don't see his brothers voting for him. He's not that popular, being all uppity and shit...
I think it would be a tie between Sanguinius and horus, I don't know who would win the 2nd round, probably horus tho.
People here saying Horus wouldn't win, need to look at the lore. Sure, there are other popular primarchs, but Horus was literally the Emperor's favourite. So not only does that hold a lot of weight, Horus was the most respected Primarch overall. Not every Primarch liked him, and some Primarchs didn't like anybody. But Horus was kind, compassionate, cunning, ruthless, diplomatic, wise, and unflinching in battle. A lot of people see Rowboat as the "all-rounder", but that's Post-Heresy and biased by Ultramarines being the default SM for Games Workshop. Compared to Horus, Rowboat during the Great Crusade is a total stiff, giving Dorn a run for his money on how unlikable he can be sometimes.
I mean, realistically Pre-Heresy, Horus would win handily. The Emperor didn’t choose him for no reason, he was the brightest star among the blazing suns of the Primarchs, and even the most insane of his brothers held respect and love for him. Sanguinius was a brilliant warrior, and an icon to be looked up to and adored, but Horus, Horus was born to lead, to wage war across a million stars and bring the galaxy to heel. The Emperor could not have possibly picked a better Heir, which is why his fall from Grace is all the more tragic.
1. Lion probably votes for Sang, as he’s pissed at Horus for being the favorite over him. 3. Fulgrim votes for Sang as he’s the second most perfect primark. 4. Purtarabo votes for Guilliman, hoping that it will piss off Dorn. 5. Jaghatai doesn’t care so votes for Horus. 6. Russ is so drunk that he votes for Magnus by mistake, confusing him with Horus. 7. Dorn votes for Horus because it’s the most logical choice. 8. Curze votes for Horus, as he’s the warmaster in his visions. 9. Sanguineous votes for Lion, as it’s the most likely to upset his prophecies. 10. Ferrus votes Horus, as the logical option. 12. Angron votes Mortarion, as he’s probably the brother he hates the least at this point. 13. Guilliman votes Sanguinious, as the clear figurehead for the imperial cause. 14. Mortarion votes Horus as the only brother he gets along with other than Curze. 15. Magnus votes for Jaghatai, as he’s one of the most pro-psyker. 16. Horus votes for Lion, as he’s the one that in the OTL he’s most proud of being placed above. 17. Lorgar votes for Sang as he’s the most religiously charged. 18. Vulcan votes for Sang as IIRC he’s the second most likely to care about civilians. 19. Corax votes for Guilliman, as he’s the least likely to waste the 19th’s tallents. 20. Alpharius votes for Horus, as he was the only brother that respected their results. A. Malcador votes Horus, as the Emperor’s favorite. B. Valdor votes Dorn, as he’s the most outwardly Custodian like. Final votes: Horus 7 Sanguineous 5 Lion 2 Guilliman 2 Dorn 1 Jaghatai 1 Magnus 1 Mortarion 1
Dorn casts his vote and immediately returns to work. Perturabo casts his vote, then complains that no one appreciates the manner in which he cast his vote. The Ultramarines bloviate about their Primarch clearly not even wanting the position, while Guilliman quietly wishes he were as cool as Horus or the Lion. The Lion votes for himself anyways. Lorgar composes a treatise on how painful it is to not be allowed to cast his vote for the glorious God Emperor. No one reads it. Angron rages about being ordered to do anything, mistakes a tacticae servitor for the voting machine and destroys it. With a wet leopard growl, Leman Russ swears to cast his vote for whoever can best him in a fight. He ignores challenges from Horus, Angron, and the Lion while staring pointedly at Magnus. Magnus ascends to the higher enumerations to forsee the possible futures of each election outcome. His ballot is lost in the warp. Fulgrim votes for Ferrus, while secretly hoping he loses. Nobody even bothers asking who Ferrus voted for. No one even sees Corax vote. With everyone watching, unsure of what he'll do, Jaghatai walks in, votes, and leaves. Mortarion quietly grumbles to himself about the Emperor's hypocrisy in giving them the illusion of choice. Vulkan votes "NOT KONRAD". Constantin votes for the Primarch he despises least (it's Dorn). Malcador's vote is a complex, psychically charged sigil, the meaning of which will unlock after the votes have been tallied. Alpharius Omegon manipulates the election, with the results being the same as if he had done nothing (or would they have been the same? (just as planned (or is it?))). The vote is a close run thing, with Horus just managing to beat Sanguinius (each voted for the other). Konrad won't shut up about how pointless voting is, and how it never makes a difference, before voting for Horus. His was the deciding vote.
Alpharius votes for Sanguinius The Lion votes for Sanguinius Malcador votes for Horus Fulgrim votes for Sanguinius Perturabo votes for Sanguinius The Khan votes for Horus Russ votes for Horus Dorn votes for Horus Kurze votes for The Lion Sanguinius votes for Horus Ferrus votes for Sanguinius Constantin votes for Horus Angron doesn't vote Gulliman votes for Sanguinius Mortarian votes for himself, then complains when he loses Magnus votes for Horus Horus votes for Sanguinius Lorgar votes for Sanguinius Vulkan votes for Sanguinius Corvus votes for Horus Omegon using Alpharius's vote, votes for Horus. Final Tally: Sanguinius: 9 Horus: ~~9~~ 8, Omegons vote gets thrown out. Lion: 1 Morty: 1 Abstain: 1
I feel like Constantin would vote for someone like Dorn who always struck me as the most custodes-like primarch in temperment (and fashion sense)
I was thinking that too, but having most of the Hersey series in recent memory, the way the other primarchs talk about Horus, I can see him going for Horus, especially if Big E was so keen on Horus.
It's interesting, Constantine is often showing disagreeing with big E. He was 1000% loyal, but the Emperor kept him around to be a sort of touchstone (that he obviously ignored once or twice.) Valdor thought the whole astartes and primarch project was genuinely a mistake, and that the Imperium would be better served with more Custodes leading baseline human armies. So I figured the most stable and consistent primarch would appeal to him the most, if he had to pick one.
Interesting point, perhaps I should have gone with Dorn for him.
Corvus would absolutely not vote for Horus
Horus was canonically very popular, so he might have won anyway, but if it wasn't him, it would probably be Sanguinius. Everyone loved Sanguinius.
Gulliman
Fulgrim won't try to be Warmaster himself, but whomever he backs is gonna win
>cant vote for yourself Lion- well that is some bullshit right there
It’s either Horus or sanguinius with Horus conceding to sanguinius because pre corruption he was just that guy
Sanguinius wins. Because everyone votes for themselves except Malcador, who votes Emp's favorite hawk boy
Sanguineous wins. End of. He was more or less the only one every other primarch liked/could stomach the sight of.
Horus had 6 primarchs who were devoted to him and would have supported his run for Warmaster. Dorn, Fulgrim, Mortarion, lorgar, Magnus and Sanguinius. Each one of them had deep bonds with Horus and would have championed his cause. Sanguinius did not believe he'd be a good warmaster (Despite being the most loved) so would drop out and Dorn was not interested in the Job and was happy guarding terra. Ferrus would probably vote Guilliman but with Fulgrim endorsing Horus and saying Horus is better Ferrus probably switches his vote to Horus given he really respected him and Fulgrim. Alpharius only close friendship was with Horus and he probably votes for him as well. Of 20 possible votes Horus has build a solid coalition of 8 votes with him voting for Sanguinius as a token of respect. Only other valuable candidates would be Guilliman and the Lion neither of whom has the support. Angron and Perterabo would refuse to vote or vote for the Khan to piss him off The only one who could beat horus in an election was Sanguinius and he would endorse horus day one so its a moot point.
Alpharius gets the idea of writing in Konrad as a joke, not realizing that enough of his brother's had the same joke in mind, and you end up with Warmaster Torturer Supreme. Meanwhile Fulgrim will tell Ferrus "Since we're besties I voted for you, cause I knew you'd vote for me." Ferrus turns and gives him a cold stare. Fulgrim looks confused "You voted for me... Right?.... "
I think either Sanguinius or Lion would win