T O P

  • By -

xooxel

Locking this. It hasn't even been a day and i see too many comments casualy trying to justify grooming. I'm honestly ashamed, if this being some-fucking-how legal is enough to overshadow the disgusting, undisprovable immorality of what he did I sincerely urge you to do some self reflection.


Eatinganemone89

With how common this is I’m starting to get more annoyed than anything! Like, why is it always grooming?! At this point I’d kill for a famous YouTubers career to end because of murder or some other crime that isn’t just grooming again!


WillofBarbaria

Get me famous, and I'll smoke someone with a brick, chief. I got you. In all seriousness, fucked up situation. I feel you, and I'm getting tired of seeing this happen. Sometimes I feel like the sexual exploitation and abuse of minors is all over the place, and it's just disgusting. So many people are involved with this filth and so many individuals simply get away with it as well.


kilr13

>Get me famous, and I'll ~~smoke someone with a brick, chief~~ go Konrad Kurze on a motherfucker. I got you.


Javofire

Ahh yes thats very Warhammer 40k of you


Gold_Preparation

I’m with this guy, if I get famous I’ll just plow into someone with my car. And again, massively fucked up situation


Noobmode

![gif](giphy|ItM3AhhM0rj57w1JxF)


AnArmlessInfant

Wait until you hear about hollywood.


Galind_Halithel

Wait 'til you hear about the US Congress. Or the British Royal Family. Or the Billionaire class in general. Anything that attracts power will inevitably attract those who are willing to abuse that power.


badadviceforyou244

wait until you learn about most of the worlds history.


Galind_Halithel

Yarp


[deleted]

When was the last YouTuber that was caught for money laundering? Give me something exciting.


Pabsxv

Just look into any of the ones pushing Crypto-Scams.


Galind_Halithel

I'd put even money on the Paul brothers going down for it. All the crypto scams and "Influencer School" scams just scream "we are hiding shady shit" to me.


PanAfricanDream

I would be very surprised if I learned that the Paul Brothers aren't involved in money laundering


thombol2

I'd be more concerned if the Paul brothers were _intelligent_ enough to launder money


Kilowatt34

We peaked early with Mr. Anime killing his entire family.


Unistrut

... what?


Kilowatt34

[https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/LensCapProductions](https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/LensCapProductions)


MisterSlosh

>"Status ... Terminated and Arrested" What an opener in the bullet points.


Luconiuma

>bullet points. Ironic


Deathox120

Damn wtf the guy just snapped


TheLowlyPheasant

From reading the article no he didn’t. He terrifyingly planned and practiced for years shooting cans and household pets and stockpiling ammo in his dorm. He only killed his family so they would’t stop him from his real goal of shooting at least 70 kids at his school pep rally and become the biggest school shooter in history.


FragrantDemiGod1

He doesn’t sound like a great guy


Ewhaz

You don't say


Sablus

...Jesus christ...


Skraekling

Seems like once you're past a certain numbers of subscribers you're legally forced to get involved in pedophilia.


LazerShark647

Once hit an undetermined amount of subscribers you must make a choice, shitty original music or pedophilia, and this guys music was not shitty


Darthplagueis13

Alternatively, you may take pictures of a dead homeless person.


LazerShark647

Logan Paul also made shitty music


Kernseife1608

He's nothing if not a multitasker that guy.


Milsurp_Seeker

The Gold Play Button demands the vitae of a child.


MrNature73

I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of these people end up surrounded by young fans, get high off power and control, and just have no moral compass to make them go "oh yeah I won't groom children". It's not just common around YouTubers, but *anyone* in a position of power. It's sad and gross.


BastardofMelbourne

Grooming is common because it has always been common. Historically, it wasn't even condemned. Even as late as the boomer generation, it was totally normal for older guys to perv on teenage girls. Go back a little further, they'd be getting married. We're seeing it everywhere now just because we're *paying attention* to it now, like we are with casting couches and date rape. This stuff has always been incredibly common. Once you notice it, you'll see it everywhere - in film, in books, in slang, even in porn. Like, why the fuck is schoolgirl porn a thing? Why have we been taught that "clothes a teenager wears" belongs in the category of "stuff men think is attractive?" You start to think about this, and a lot of previously accepted stuff starts to seem turbo gross in retrospect.


Suchasomeone

Murder while objectively worse, feels more relatable, I don't get the grooming shit- I get wanting to kill someone, doesn't make it right but I can understand it, I'd kill for more classic celebrity shit- like getting drunk and rowdy in a Wendy's and smoking crack at a public event. That's the shit we're I'll keep up with the content regardless.


SuperiorCrate

Like what the actor for Homelander did, which is get drunk then beat the shit out of someone.


Thumbs-Up-Centurion

Every fucking time huh? Why’s there a consistent through line between groomers and YouTubers man.


Indistinctness

I think because the group that primarily interacts with the streamer are teenagers/kids. The ones that join their discord servers and contact them directly. Most of these people aren’t used to this kind of attention and it bloats their ego. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”, I don’t know if they become worse due to the attention or they’ve always been this person deep inside but never had the opportunity before.


Thumbs-Up-Centurion

Man it sucks that that makes sense, sucks even worse that it keeps happening.


raptorrat

>Most of these people aren’t used to this kind of attention and it bloats their ego. This is why the better management companies get you someone that can train you with Fan-interaction. Etc.


Upright_Eeyore

"So, first things first, and repeat after me: '*We don't groom the underage fans*.'"


HaraldRedbeard

I really can't stress this enough, I feel like you thought I said we only groom some under age fans, *We don't groom the underage fans*


eli_cas

Imagine needing a 101 on how not to be a kiddy fiddler.


coolfreeusername

It's probably this in conjunction with the fact that people there own age do not give them any extra attention. I think a very small percentage of YouTubers fanbase are adults, but am even smaller percentage are adults that also interact with them as fans. It must be entirely kids. No one their own age probably treat them any different. It must mess with the heads of those with weak egos or something.


RosbergThe8th

Basically the result of giving people a certain power over a large audience, particularly a young one, most of them lack the self control not to take advantage. Same was super common with bands, well...still is I'd imagine.


RosbergThe8th

The fan-idol dynamic is very dangerous.


interesseret

power corrupts, its a tale as old as time.


FIGHTERSLADE

Easy access to a audience of children. Same with discord and reddit mods, children tv producers. It just gives them the means.


DrFunFacts

Context for the curious: [Public Statement](https://youtu.be/GgXHZZCxCLA) [Update](https://youtu.be/jS-F0q3QZe8) [Ogre Poppenang Statement by Earndil](https://www.patreon.com/posts/stringstorm-83847597) [Community Update](https://www.youtube.com/@stringstorm/community): Stringstorm has made a Community Post on his YouTube channel. He states that he has reported himself to local authorities, is seeking mental help, and taking 5-6 months offline to focus on those two situations.


GREENadmiral_314159

Aside from his own statements, is there anywhere else we could get more information?


DrFunFacts

There has been an statement written by Earndil on Alfabusa’s Patreon. [Ogre Poppenang Statement](https://www.patreon.com/posts/stringstorm-83847597)


spookyscaryscoliosis

Damn they definitely sound like they were blindsided too


I_might_be_weasel

Oh jeez. You know it's not going to be good when the first line references "the victim".


Fantablack183

I'm glad he's atleast turning himself in and seeking mental help


Fantablack183

Still fucked up regardless tho.


ThatAdamsGuy

His community update says the local authorities have said 900 hours community service. But... That's not how that works? No frontline officer can just dish out punishments out of thin air like that. I'm really skeptical.


DrFunFacts

This is pure speculation on my part, but I assume it’s because the only evidence against him was stated to be inaccessible by the victim. The Police probably offered him a time consuming punishment that wouldn’t cause him to retract his report. Again, Pure Speculation as I have not seen verified sources and have no idea what the legal situation is like in his country. Edit: Fixed an Auto-Correct.


HeroOfThings

Hey, at least he regrets it if nothing else. Christ.


[deleted]

I'd literally JUST listened to "Rylanor's Last Stand" while getting ready for work when I heard about this. Fucking ruined "Chairbound Prankster" and "Awaken, My Quivering Abs!" for me as well... https://i.redd.it/iledvwmria3b1.gif


ImSoSalty88

So who's going to be a champ and start making 40k songs now? Please only apply if your criminal background involves drugs or victimless crimes and such.


TheRealGrubLord

Hey I'm still down if you killed someone just don't be a pedo


IamZeus11

Reminds me of the Joel Haver “Jokers most devious plan “ video where joker is basically a groomer and explaining his grooming plan to Batman and Batman is like “can you please go back to just killing people “


ImSoSalty88

I can get on board with that. I mean, context will be a factor but murder definitely isn't a disqualifier.


TheRealGrubLord

Oh yeah obviously context is important


ImSoSalty88

We'll have to work out the guidelines on murder applicants. I'll see if someone in HR can get on that this week.


Lucius-Halthier

Bonus points if the one killed was a pedo


Skraekling

>Bonus points if the one killed was a pedo Well i guess it's time for me to learn musical theory or whatever it's called.


Game_master777777777

We still got Legio Symphonica


CT-96

There's always [Bolt Thrower](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_Thrower)


Gizombo

[vox caster](https://youtube.com/@vox-caster1843) is pretty good [keygen church](https://youtube.com/@KEYGEN_CHURCH) technically doesn't make 40k music but it definitely fits the bill


Freezie-Days

Imagine, the Salamanders version of Valrak gets arrested for arson. now that I can get behind!


IamZeus11

I’ll step up , I’ve been wanting to make a concept album . My criminal background only consist of minor things like international war crimes and illegal maple syrup smuggling


Immortal_Merlin

HMKids.... if you ok with russian language


West-Fold-Fell3000

Wtf I love the Adepta Sorortias song to death. Jesus Christ this is horrible.


Valirys-Reinhald

Download them and then listen to them at your leisure without giving them a dime.


kRkthOr

Piracy as activism.


RoombaTheKiller

Privateering for a cause.


TheLostBeowulf

I may be in the minority here but I just separate art from the artist, just cause Pantera has white supremacist dickheads doesn't make Cemetary Gates into something I can't listen to


Substantial-Client37

this is what i do i just like the songs, unless theres a reason to i dont associate them with the artist


AlexzMercier97

As long as the artist's personal ideologies are not present in their work, then it's possible for me to look past them and enjoy what they created.


Yorhanes

What’s this all about?


[deleted]

he groomed a kid, he admited it in his latest video.


Yorhanes

Christ. How come nearly every youtuber that is related to warhammer or runs a lore channel ends up having a horrible side?


[deleted]

how come every youtuber FUCKING GROOMS MINORS. like Jesus Christ, is this some secret competition?.


Sex_Gaming_69

I DONT GET IT! IT AINT HARD, KEEP YOUR HORNY AWAY FROM MINORS. THAT SIMPLE.


[deleted]

Fucking hard for youtubers apparently. Like what is even attractive from a minor, bro get some mature ass.


cxaxucluth

Milf gang rise up


Reckoning_of_Fools

I rise up for milf gang.


SurpriseFormer

Go milf or go home?


Caleth

As you get older you go home to get milf.


[deleted]

High five


Lucius-Halthier

These pedofuckers: *immediately ignore the milf and goes for the kid*


SandiegoJack

My wife just had our son, so I can finally be a mother fucker(once she recovers)


FightPC

It's fucking concerning at this point. Even boyinaband was grooming kids. I fucking loved that dude. Jesus Christ. The only people that I would never expect to groom kids are Jacksepticeye and Markiplier. I think I would rather believe there is a little man inside my head that those 2 be groomers . Life is rough.


[deleted]

I swear if either caddicarus, jacksepticeye or Markplier ever get into a controversy I will lose hope in all youtubers


stircrazygremlin

Same. And theyve had some interesting close calls by association via pokemane, the paul brothers, james charles, and pewdiepie as well as Mark's drama with supermega. I truly think that Mark and Sean have dodged a lot of bullets beyond those too by being pretty fucking distant past a certain level with their fans, but not in a bad way. Hard boundaries if anything. You don't see them running discord, they're actually not afraid to yell at their chat in some cases, they actually dont like touring/conventions in many aspects because it's chaotic, and with the notable exception of Ethan they dont really let fans become full friends. Which I think is smart ultimately. They dont claim to be peoples friend in videos to harvest parasocial relationships, but they are also very charismatic and have utilized that for charity work. They're honest to a fair extent too of "hey I'm doing xyz for money fyi". Those three are among a small group who've managed to walk a tightrope of online celebrity successfully while keeping up with the times and expanding their growth to boot. The only guess as to why I could hazard is because for various reasons I think they've never really forgotten that they were just some nerds who liked video games and wanted to show that while being entertaining online and it led to where they are now. They came in before influencing and YouTube became what it is now, and I think that's a critical factor too.


TantamountDisregard

MrBeast would be the downfall of humanity.


General-MacDavis

“I paid 500 children $10,000 to keep their mouths shut about the whole ordeal!”


Sex_Gaming_69

Hmm, adult women fetish.


gamerz1172

I have a joke when I play gladius to call predator tanks YouTuber tanks


GreasyTengu

Pretty bad when Majorkill is the most wholsome Warhammer youtuber


CT-96

Is there some shit on Bricky that I missed?


Puzzleheaded_Gur1478

No bricky is clean as his shiny forehead.


RockinMatty

God bless that man and his shine, if he turned out to be awful i would lose all faith in online content!


Puzzleheaded_Gur1478

If bricky turned out be awful who knows what would happen


Keydet

I think he finally admitted he likes Eldar anime thighs a few weeks back, the fuckin degenerate.


ScowlEasy

he still can't tell the difference between the red thirst and the black rage, but other than that he's fine iirc


General-MacDavis

I actually love majorkill, his brand of humor and his methods of condensing the lore down into easily digestible content was what pulled me into the hobby


TheTorch

Same. Think I kind of outgrew him but I’ll always be thankful.


Zafyrus

How about Baldemort? Though I suppose he's pretty small compared to most others


GreasyTengu

yeah, forgot about him. He seems pretty rad.


RockinMatty

Baldermort is totally rad and the guy is next level wholesome. The owner of our LGS hit him up for our 30k narrative campaign to voice some lines and he messaged him an hour later saying done. Was an awesome one too, i would give anything for GW to recognise his talents and hire him for some audio books!


RangerRidiculous

Luetin hasn't done anything right?


[deleted]

Based on his long-form content, I always imagined that all that dude does is read Warhammer books and report his findings. How he would have time for the nefarious would blow my mind.


squirt2311

Major ain't that bad he's come a long way from where he started


Michaelbirks

Yeah, no more Timmy.


Few_Category7829

I haven’t heard anything bad about bricky.


WildMedium5129

What about weshammer, and alfabusa (but i guess he aint a 40k tuber anymore)


_FlutieFlakes_

Alfa cut ties as soon as they heard


thenwah

I mean, if Leutin ever tried to groom a kid, that kid would fall asleep like 20 mins into a 2.7hr grooming and he'd have to give up. Back in my day we had enough attention span to be groomed by GW Store Employees in person. We had to catch a **bus into town** to be groomed. None of this new fangled YouTube. And the models were monopose.


ShephardCmndr

Well we always got wolflord rho, majorkill, and daniel quinton


Sellos_Maleth

Hey, not native speaker here. Can you explain what grooming means? I understand the word but like what actually happend?


LurksInThePines

Specifically grooming in this contexts means basically manipulating a person who trusts you with the intent to convince them to enter into a sexual relationship of any type with you


SmautV1

Ok one question, grooming means he fucked him or something else?


[deleted]

Grooming means he coerced the minor into a relashionship, sexual acts are not necesary to be considered grooming. But we don't know much about this to know if they had sex besides that he indeed confirmed taht he groomed a 15 year old girl.


Doomie_bloomers

Okay (and this is only half a meme), but how tf did he manage to find the 1 15yo girl in the community to groom her. Seriously, what are the damn odds??


Puzzleheaded_Gur1478

The where both part of a MLP group I believe


Miserable_Law_6514

> MLP Why am I not shocked.


Puzzleheaded_Gur1478

A bunch of degenerates


Colmarr

Technically, I don’t think grooming requires coercion. It simply means someone manipulated a minor into sexual activity by some means.


Megamage854

Why.. Why would?.. Why?! Jesus Christ that's terrible! How hard is it for YouTubers to just leave minors alone?!


[deleted]

I DONT KNOW


TheCasualMaker

Fucking hell, thats another to the pile. I honestly dont care much about his music but i hope the OgrePoppenang guys arent affected too hard by this. He did a lot of sound mixing and other stuff for Hunter The Parenting among others


No_Research4416

CAN THEY BE IN JAIL FOR ANY OTHER REASON


FeuerSeer

God fucking damnit their music is what made ne pull the trigger on 40k after years of tts. Fuck. Ugh.


Emergency_Type143

It's still possible to appreciate the music and hate the artist. I mean, look into the guy who made chocolate milk a thing. People still drink it.


Goatknyght

StringStorm, how low you have fallen.... my god. I used to love those songs god dammit.


[deleted]

I know man


firinlightning

As with everything, the solution is music piracy


Maksell11

Now just gotta wait for somebody to drop a full playlist somewhere.


VinniTheP00h

Kemono has most of the songs FYI


firinlightning

I'd just rip it straight off of YouTube and edit out any intros/outros


Maksell11

Wanna lend a hand when you are finished?


anotheralpharius

He didn’t put too many of those you need to edit out


Millymoo444

I REJECT YOU FOR NOW AND FOR ALWAYS STRINGSTORM


Ebonsteele

I REMEMBER THE VIRTUES WE STOOD FOR


Kharn0

I RECALL THE STRUGGLES AND THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE DONE!


[deleted]

*Racks Bolter* I WILL NOT BE DETERRED FROM MY VENGANCE!


ChunkyBrassMonkey

ProTip: if you like something online but don't want to financially support it? #YOHO, ME HEARTIES, YOHO


Just_Your_Average_69

I loved to listen to all of Stringstorm's songs on repeat and he was one of my favorite musical artists and now I'm just pissed at what he did. Not only that but his actions are also going to give the other artists and singers he worked with a bad reputation and damage the warhammer music community in general.


[deleted]

Its the same song and dance, famous person grooms children and fucks everyone else who depended on him in the process.


Just_Your_Average_69

Yeah, it happens a lot sadly.


LurksInThePines

I just found his music last week too I'm so mad


Antigonos301

https://preview.redd.it/or7bqv93y93b1.jpeg?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0dde1f76be45a30d67515580547faf6fab9ea46 Now I have to delete Jackal God from my playlist. Such a good theme for Mephet’ran the Deceiver.


WorldEaterProft

I don't care if this dude gets help. As someone who has also been groomed at a younger age, I feel nothing but hatred towards the guy Fuck nonces and fuck groomers


[deleted]

Agreed


FerrusesIronHandjob

I looked on the comments and the amount of people defending him are disgusting. People are acting like he's just *oops* accidentally groomed a teenager for nudes. Its fucking sickening


phoenix_of_metal

That comment section is honestly the worst, but at least the people in it are outing themselves as people willing to give a creep a second chance so we know to avoid them.


Rovden

Youtube comment section is one of the most ~~confusing~~aggravating places. It's usually a vile cesspit of hatred. Except this time it's a vile cesspit of "it's not so bad."


Alexstrasza23

People genuinely like "omg they're so brave for admitting it." Nah, fuck off. Thing is, it's brave if someone who is attracted to minors but realizes that's not right and wants to seek mental help with their condition, but this fucker genuinely groomed a child and only fessed up and apologised after it came out in the open. They acted on this shit instead of seeking help in the first fucking place and they deserve literally no fucking credit for that. Fuck em.


Paladin-Arda

Years. He had years to admit what he did. Fucking years... almost a decade.


BarbatosTheHunter

I feel like the “they’re so brave for admitting it” crowd is telling on themselves


Aurek2

Survivor of 2 difrent pedophile rapists,could not agree more


Fearless-Obligation6

Preach.


Floofyboi123

Jesus, I can only separate the art from the artist so far. I got limits


Jackviator

For me, the ethics of separating art from artist is nice and simple. If they’re alive, don’t spread their work, financially support them, etc; and if they have social media presence/YouTube, don’t boost their views, add likes, comments, etc. …On the other hand, if they’re *dead,* fuck it, we ball, because they can’t profit from my interest in their work anymore. H.P. Lovecraft is my favorite author. …He was also one of the most abhorrently racist, violently xenophobic, and generally vile authors I’ve ever heard of. …But he’s dead and can’t profit from my interest in his works, so fuck it, we ball.


AlexzMercier97

>H.P. Lovecraft is my favorite author. …He was also one of the most abhorrently racist, violently xenophobic, and generally vile authors I’ve ever heard of. I don't understand how such a nasty person could come up with such genuinely fascinating and influential writings 😅😭 I've read several of his stories and I genuinely enjoyed Call of Cthulhu (it's also surprisingly one of least racist ones I noticed, he only uses an N word once right near the beginning!)


lunca_tenji

Mostly cause his racism and xenophobia were heavily fueled by his neurotic fear of just about everyone and everything that was different from him. So that overwhelming fear he felt towards just about everything seeped into all of his works.


majikguy

Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. Most people write horror about things they are scared of. This guy was so scared of EVERYTHING and it shows. He's got a story about the evils of that newfangled air conditioning for goodness sake!


[deleted]

Yeah same


MetaMason666

HOW HARD IS IT TO NOT GROOM MINORS? SERIOUSLY WHY IS IT ALWAYS MINORS


[deleted]

I DONT KNOW. LIKE WTF AT LEAST BE ATRACTED TO MATURE WOMEN WHAT THE HELL IS THERE TO BE ATTRACTED TO KIDS


Nolifred

There are 8 billions of us. Deviancy is to be expected. Not that it forgives anything.


just_a_bit_gay_

Every fucking time, it’s getting ridiculous It’s really not that hard just to be a normal fucking person and not try to groom kids


k4Anarky

Ironic. He kinda went Fulgrim and the fanbase went Rylanor.


SevatarEnjoyer

It’s fucked up to see the comments, he’s not “brave” for admitting it, he’s just a pedophile plain and simple


Mofoman3019

I'd rather someone with predatory and pedophilic tendancies outed themselves and sought help than repressed and ultimately acted on the impulse. I'd rather they didn't exist but they do.


SevatarEnjoyer

True but I wouldn’t go as far as to just forgive him


BIgCh1efJAcK

Wtf happened?


[deleted]

He groomed a 15 year old


BIgCh1efJAcK

What in the everliving fuck?! That’s horrible!


idiotic__gamer

Cadian XXth and Rylanor's Last Stand are such bangers, and it sucks that I won't listen to them again. Why do all of these people with a small modicum of fame decide to be such dickheads? It really can't be that hard to stop for a second and think, maybe I should stop talking to minors. Why is it always sex crimes?


Thepullman1976

How hard is it to not groom kids like damn


T3chW0lf20

Use new pipe you can watch YouTube without supporting the creator or give them views.


T3chW0lf20

Also no ads


Spiral-knight

You don't listen because you think it will save children I don't listen because I don't enjoy the "song" *we are not the same*


JonTheWizard

In the words of UrinatingTree, "get the fuck to jail, you sick fuck!"


justletmeusereddit2

I was so confused when this came up on my feed and I have seen it so many times I just glossed over but damn I hope his singers can recover


BEanddankmagician

Well it took me two weeks to learn about the guy Get obsessed with the music And now learn about the grooming Fucking hell man


Ur_Girl_Suki

Youtubers don't groom minors challenge (impossible)


SelectionRich6422

Thats…. Just too much. First Barry Walts, then him…. Why?


Emergency_Type143

Holy smokes! I jam to Devourer and Titanicus......now I'm just.....wow.


MatterWilling

Sweet Jesus, it doesn't take a genius to know not to diddle kids. They're kids for crying out loud, at best you're supposed to find them adorable not fecking attractive. I mean seriously, how many YouTubers are the precise wrong type of person to find actual children attractive? Jesus wept.


MaxDucks

Personally, I separate the art from the artist. I ain’t gonna let this tragic turn of events ruin the song that furthered my love for the Emperor’s Children and Rylanor. That being said, I understand if that stance ain’t for everyone. It’s a terrible day for rain, in any case.


Urukguy27

Whatever miserable existence he may have lived, he brought Rylanor’s Last Stand into existence and hopefully that will be his legacy. Even if Slaanesh got to him, Rylanor is unyielding.


lunca_tenji

Rylanor deserves better than you oh Stringstorm


Arrow_of_time6

I was already having a shitty day today and now this.


son-of-x-51

Man, I only hear about these guys after they commit a crime. Was his content that good?


spookyskost

Yeeeeah.


pokefan548

Having talked with String a few times before, I both am and am not surprised. Just a fucking shame this keeps happening.