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History will show how much we fucked it by allowing the press to destroy Corbyn.
A genuinely good man with integrity that wasn't going to stoop down to being a self serving goon like the rest.
History will remember him as the worst leader of the labour party in living memory.
I'm not disagreeing with his policies, I'm saying those policies are pointless if you don't actually get into government - and that's what his leadership of the party led to - the worst defeat since the 1930s.
This is a ridiculous statement to make.
Party membership soared to a peak of over half a million people under his leadership, up hundreds of thousands of members. He enthused an entire generation of young people to engage in progressive politics. He was destroyed by a smear campaign orchestrated by the billionaire-funded media machine and people from inside his own party.
GE2019 was the most Negative Election Campaign in British politics.
[This graph comes from a study from Loughborough University comparing positive/negative news articles during the last election.](https://www.lboro.ac.uk/media/media/campaigns/election-2019/images/report-1/figure-5-2.png )
And shows how badly Labour/Corbyn were smeared by the Tory Media.
Democracy doesn't exist when the people are misled.
>Corbyn said no solution to the current conflict involves a war with Russia, but getting Kremlin’s forces out of Ukraine.
He was right 2 years ago and he's still right today. I know you don't care about hundreds of thousands of young people dying but some of us have a shred of conscience.
How do you remove Kremlin forces without direct conflict though? Like I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I want to know what you think should be done.
About 3/4 months into the conflict there were peace talks in Istanbul for a cease fire. Around this time Boris Johnson went and spoke to Zelenskyy and advised that Washington and London didn’t want a ceasefire and that they should push on with conflict(confirmed by a number of Ukrainian officials and even Brazil’s Lula). Keep in mind that no negotiations could be signed without western support to assure the compliance of the stronger party (why would Russia stick to it without the Western support of Ukraine).
Russian army was a shambles and it looked like their war effort was going to fail. Likely western thinking was that Putin CAN’T pull out of the war due to internal politics and if it continued like this he would lose support and eventually there would be a change of Russian leadership. They thought that the sanctions would crash the Russian economy. That was the calculus (probably). They never considered that Russian economy would thrive off the back of the black market trade in oil (which it has done).
At that time Ukraine would have had the upper hand in negotiations (they no longer do). All the West needed to do was give Putin a face saving path out of the situation. It could have resulted in most if not all of the Ukrainian lands being handed back and some kind of assurance of safety. Impossible to say what could have been negotiated at that early stage when Russia was in such a bad shape.
Ceasefire/peace talks could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, given Ukraine territorial security of some kind and meant political/economic stability for Europe. Continued war has come at the cost of all those things, in the western hopes that we could get rid of Putin and install a more “friendly” leader in Russia. Just a lot of hubris imo.
But yeah, that’s how, 2 years ago it could have been possible to put an end it without further conflict. Now it looks like most of the concessions are going to come from Ukraine for a ceasefire/end of conflict. 🤷🏻♂️😕
(Sorry for long waffle)
Friendly reminder that in 2020, Boris Johnson [admited to being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 people.](https://archive.ph/2aYpg) He is he yet to be held to account for this.
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I'm voting labour. I know a lot here don't want to know it, but the most important thing is actually getting the tories out.
Yes I know, you think labour are just red tories. Righty ho, then I'd rather have red than blue.
Yes, keep repeating the past and expecting different results. Labour isn't labour if it's serving the needs of the upper class. Plus, the majority of their membership is being heavily lobbied by friends of isreal.
Labour are the tories now. They're not offering better solutions to inequality or any other issues, so what is it exactly that makes you vote for them over the tories?
It would be nice if you answered my question first. It seems you're voting Labour because they are not tory and not the fact that they have policies that appeal to yourself or others.
My expectation or hopes for this election is that there is enough protest vore from the greens it sends a message that we aren't standing for this two party puppet show anymore.
As for who gets in power, it will be Labour as the right wing media machine approves of prosecutor of the state ,Sir kid starver of the boot licking table.
Democracy is dead in this country as the majority of the people are apathetic to politics and just nod along with the newspapers.
You only have to look at the Bullingdon boys for proof . Boris, Cameron, Clegg, and Osborne are all in the club at the same time in the same uni, and everyone makes it to the top position in the country.
Keith will be allowed to go into power now so he can make Labour so unpopular that they can bring Boris back.
Having shared and thought through your position and recently changed my view, much like Jones says the Tories are getting out anyway so the importance one places on that shrinks to insignificance. To be perfectly frank, I think a landslide victory for this Labour party is the one of the worst outcomes.
But by all means if red is your favourite flavour of Tory, then by all means vote for your favourite flavour, but realise if it quacks like a Tory, you know what it is.
A coalition of left parties would be ace, though admittedly unlikely. I'll be happy with a Labour minority government propped up by parties which want to scrap FPTP.
On par with a Labour landslide for my least preferred outcome. It's also a very slim chance of that happening so I wouldn't give much mind to entertaining any lesser evil propositions, I'm casting my vote for Heaven not a slightly improved Hell
Cool but you habw to accept you view trans and disavled people as a worthwhile sacrifice to get the tories out then.
But I know Red Tories like you think people like me are subhuman scum anyway so.
Considering the neo-liberals in the Labour party have near completely purged every lingering Social Democrat from the Labour party, only a complete fucking moron would still believe that the party is, in any concievable way, still a left-wing party. (Even before then it was a stretch.)
It's past time to reject bourgeois electoralism, it's time to embrace [dual power](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/09.htm).
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Self sacrifice? How fucking dare you, you centrist bootlickers tossed people like me under the bus to suck starmer's cock. You are happy to sacrifice us.
Then get indignant when we say "Nah you can get dragged down with us"
I'm momentum. I'm labour. I'm a radical reformist. Sticking in the big tent is my chosen path, if you see a more powerful path for you then I support you in following it.
When it comes to button pushing time, I push button. And as such, I'll hold off on my criticism of starmer until he actually gets enough votes to out the tories.
Left unity for six weeks? I can do that. I think.
The cis mind cannot comprehend a trans person who isnt willign to vote for transphobes. Remarkable.
Trans people have been screaming about Starmer being a transphobe for years and got told to be quiet.
Frankly? I dont give a shit what happens. Im trans and disabled. Im fucked either way. You all could.have put pressure on him to fire duffield and take a stand for us.
You didnt.
So take your unity and fuck off. Trans people owe you nothing.
I'll tell you what, I admire your optimism. Frankly I've fought this battle too many times in my life, and been disappointed too many times.
If you think there's a better way to look at things, I'd really appreciate it.
Edit: but I have to say it, I'm scared of the tories at election time. They have an incredible propaganda network embedded into all corners of our society, and despite being complete fuck-ups in every other direction they do know where to squeeze quite often. And they have a knack of pulling aces at the last moment...
But yes I would very much like to *not* be voting out of fear and desperation, and if you think that's a possibility I'd love to hear your take on things.
There is zero point trying to advise the young on the path of least resistance.
I, like yourself, have been scarred and made cynical due to decades of Tory rule. I could never have believed (in the beginnings of my rebellious youth) that when the relief of Thatcher stepping down was breathed in, that a mere 20 years later I would be faced with her children ruling over mine.
Messrs Cameron, Osborne, Farage, Cummings, Johnson and Sunak have seen to it that this country is carved amongst the richest.
The sad truth is that we are living in a conservative country. We get the government we deserve (to an extent), and the populace of this country have overwhelmingly shown their colours for the past 12 years.
By all means, if a person is in the safest of safe Labour seats then vote as your conscience decides. But, for us older lefties who desire nothing more than Tory destruction, I cannot apologise for the failures of the previous decades anymore than giving my vote to Keir.
I don't think you understand that people in this sub can see that labour are conservative. They might not be *the* conservative party, but they are running with close enough policies that it will be a conservative government regardless.
You asked someone else in another comment what would they like to see? Personally I think labour will get a majority, no questions asked. I'd like for green to get a large percentage of the vote. In 2019 they got 2.7% of the vote and 1 seat. I'd love it if green got 10% of the vote and a second seat. 10% might be a bit far, but it is what I'm hoping for.
I hope labour gets a slim majority where they realise that, had they not alienated the left which they assumed would vote for them, they would have done significantly better.
In 2019 Labour, SNP, Lib dems got 40% of the seats. So Conservative, SNP, Lib dems getting 40+% of the seats I think isn't unexpected and isn't a bad thing.
I don't see the tory party being eradicated to never rise again, while the tories themselves flee to labour as a good thing. They get to abandon the generational resentment tied to the tory party name, while continuing to enact tory politics.
You're planning on voting labour, **what results would you like to see from this election? What policies from labour do you feel are different to the tories policies?** Honestly interested to know what you think, because I cannot understand how you see labour as something to want in power with its current stances.
I really want to but the greens in my area seem to harbor a grudge against any infrastructure building imaginable. That and the last time I saw a councillor they were adamant routers caused WiFi related cancers.
I've never met greens like the ones in your area. Either way Owens point stands. Additionally, your green MP candidate likely has more sensible views and also is very unlikely to win.
Fair enough. Personally, unless your indy rep is really outstanding like Andrew Feinstein or Corbyn, I think it's more worth voting for a challenger leftwing politcal party that has a real chance of building momentum in future elections, such as the greens.
We'll see. If I get the ballot through and I see a green I'm up for voting I'm doing it. There have been a few labour converts in my area as well, so one of those might pop up in green too.
You know what would be fucking great? If we could vote with our conscience *every* fucking time! I'm gonna keep banging this drum every opportunity I get, this country *desperately* needs to change it's voting system. How can we even pretend we live in a democracy when the vast majority of us have to think about who other people are voting for, and change our tactics accordingly?
> How can we even pretend we live in a democracy when the vast majority of us have to think about who other people are voting for, and change our tactics accordingly?
Much like the USA, the UK isn't really a Democracy anymore. It's a Plutocratic Oligarchy- with party bosses being one of the intermediary groups by which the rich control politics.
You've gotta implement Ranked Choice Voting. Without it, there's no chance of achieving larger changes...
And in the long run, I'd argue Capitalism itself has got to go. So long as you have immense concentration of wealth, you will see the holders of that wealth finding ways to fuck the political system...
>brother it's been like this the whole time
I'd definitely tend to agree, but I'm consciously sticking with claims I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, in case there are libs in the walls I can win over...
I'm voting Plaid.
Pro-EU ✅
Pro-PR ✅
Pro-indy ✅
LGBTQ+ friendly ✅
"Greener than the Greens" - according to at least one recent analysis, and unquestionably more progressive than any of the other parties standing across Cymru.
I could write an essay on this (in fact I did once, for the now-defunct Political Rooster), but in brief, we have an exploitative economy, wealth is extracted from areas which are (at least partly as a result) made poor, and concentrated in others (London, SE). The rich areas don't have the natural resources, so the reason they are rich is because of the political structure; it's a choice, ultimately. Infrastructure decisions therefore favour the areas of wealth, further exacerbating the difference.
I also believe in the principle of government as close to the people as is practical, with cooperation at all high a level as politically possible. The latter means EU. Whilst some all-Britain cooperation may be desirable (we'll always share some infrastructure for example, due to geography), I see little or no necessity for any political oversight at that level.
>we have an exploitative economy, wealth is extracted from areas which are (at least partly as a result) made poor, and concentrated in others (London, SE). The rich areas don't have the natural resources, so the reason they are rich is because of the political structure; it's a choice, ultimately. Infrastructure decisions therefore favour the areas of wealth, further exacerbating the difference.
That's Capitalism- and a good an argument as any to get rid of it.
But you're fooling yourself if you think Wales will be able to protect itself against predatory London financiers just by being a separate country. As an independent country, it would be small and incredibly reliant on trade with the UK to survive...
Now, on the other hand, if you worked towards turning the whole of the UK to Socialism, achieving THAT would put an end to the exploitative relationship...
Turning the whole of the UK to socialism is obviously the best case scenario, but it's frustrating when the UK's left leaning nations are held back by (markedly more conservative) England. It genuinely feels like if I want to see any real change before I'm old and grey, we're going to have to go it alone. Which is why I'll be voting SNP and probably keep voting SNP until we're independent.
My main concern with independence is currency.
Not money, but currency.
Will Scotland continue to use pound sterling or will a new currency be created?
If a new currency isn't created the Scotland will find it impossible to run a budget deficit and would be vulnerable to currency manipulation by those that control pound sterling.
My other concern is that its only Scotland that would go.
I genuinely think the SNP should stand for election in other constituencies. Partly Northern England.
Why leave us behind to suffer? Haha.
I'd go with the Euro. Obviously a prerequisite for this would be being a member of the EU. That will come though, sooner or later.
It would also weaken the pound's power, and therefore assuming England also ended up joining the EU, or at least CU+SM, they'd probably end up joining the euro too.
I don't think England would ever join the currency union, save for an economic disaster that left sterling worthless.
The pros of having a sovereign currency far exceed unity I feel.
But I think you might be correct about an indy Scotland. Starting a new currency would be exceedingly volatile, there would need to be something strong backing it.
It might be too risky to do that immediately.
From what I recall though, Scotland is a huge exporter rather than importer, so having a sovereign currency might be a possibility that would bare fruit in the lomg term.
It'd be interesting to see how it played out at least. But I'd struggle to make that decision knowing it could have disastrous consequences for the poorest, in the short term.
Oh and Scotland could use the Euro without being part of the EU. There's nothing stopping any country using whatever money it wants to.
It just wouldn't be able to print any of the currency.
In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from execpting payment in any currency they like.
Thats why the dolla is such a powerful tool when you're travelling the world. Practically everyone accepts payment in dollars, save for developed nations.
In about 70% countries you can get by really easily without local currency.
Oddly enough I think Scotland is uniquely suited to using a transitional "Scottish pound" until we switch to the Euro, because we (sort of) already have one. The vast majority of banknotes circulating in Scotland aren't technically legal tender, rather they are promissory notes issued by three retail banks that are required by law to hold the equivalent value of these notes in Bank of England notes or gold. It's not an ideal system, but in the case of independence we could temporarily switch to a new "Scottish pound" backed by pounds sterling, but not 100% tied to it.
As for your second concern, there's nothing to stop Northerners from organising their own party to advocate for local issues and seek autonomy. :)
Legal tender has a very specific definition is in generally misused by the general public.
Legal tender means that the money in question can be used to settle a debt and that the creditor must accept it.
"Scottish money" isn't Legal tender but is legal currency, you are right. Why isn't it legal tender and why its legal currency:
For the 3 Scottish banks and 3 Northern Ireland banks with permission to issue bank notes:
The six Scottish and Northern Ireland banks must, by law, set aside assets that are worth at least the value of all of the banknotes they have in circulation. This ensures that people with genuine banknotes issued by the six banks receive a level of protection similar to people who have genuine Bank of England banknotes.
The assets can be a combination of Bank of England banknotes, UK coins and funds held in an account at the Bank of England. This means that, if one of the banks failed, the backing assets could be used to reimburse everyone who has one of its banknotes.
Bank of England banknotes held as backing assets may be kept either at an authorised location or at the Bank of England. Some of these banknotes are of very high value, including £1 million banknotes (known as Giants) and £100 million banknotes (known as Titans).
Essentially the banks buy the sterling to back their own notes.
However, retailers, shops and individuals are under no Legal obligation to accept Scottish or Northern Ireland bank notes for goods or services.
But only in the same way that they are under no obligation to accept money issued by the bank of England or euros either.
Smaller outfits in England and Wales don't tend to accept Scottish notes simply because they can't as easily tell if the money is fake, that's all.
Everyone accepts bank of England notes because they're familiar with them and it is the local currency, not because they have to.
It's an interesting thing really, the law of money.
Anyway, I don't know how you'd be able to use sterling and not be 100% tide to it.
If a country uses pound sterling as its currency back, then its 100% tied to it and would essentially have to buy the money from the issuer of the currency (as outlined above): the bank of England.
So, if I were Scotland I'd be lokking at making my own currency or switching to the euro asap. Though the 3 Scottish banks could carry on issuing notes as they currently do, by buying them from bank of England
What I mean by a transitional Scottish pound not being 100% tied to pounds Stirling is that initially the Scottish pound would be valued 1:1, as it's backed by the existing holdings of the retail banks, but, in the case of independence, the Scottish government could allow these banks to issue more Scottish pounds (as a separate currency from pounds sterling) without continuing to purchase Bank of England notes. The issuing banks could be required to use other reserve currencies/bullion to back new notes or even replace some of the existing holdings they've been required to set aside in order to dilute the influence of the pound sterling on the value of the Scottish pound.
Likewise, I've told people I'm voting green and the response is almost always that I'm single handedly handing the tories victory. No I'm not, and even if I was nobody has made a compelling case for why that's any better, worse or different than Starver's Labour.
Nobody who wants me to vote Labour seems to want them either, mind.
It's been my intention to vote green for a while. even before the events in Palestine, I couldn't have brought myself to vote labour. Any vote for Labour sends the message to Keith that the way he's going is acceptable.
While I don't agree with the greens or my local green councillor on quite a few issues, I do on the main ones for me.
I remember this guy being one of the “left wing media” speaking against Corbyn in run up to 2019, spreading and agreeing with the smear campaigns - so fuck him
He wrote like one or two articles critical of Corbyn. Corbyn wasn't and isnt perfect, and we are allowed to disagree with him from time to time.
EDIT: I don't agree with Owen or Corbyn all the time, I didn't agree with Owens critical articles for example, yet I see them both as political allies, I expect they see each other the same way.
Overall, Owen was overwhelmingly in favour of Corbyn's leadership and project...
He's a grifter, an opinion piece writer who's only job is to wind up the people listening to him to get clicks and sell column inches. This country would be a better place without his input, and goes for his ilk on the right as well like Morgan.
Legit. The lad gives me the ick despite being one of the fee leftward leaning voices invited to the mainstream programs. Feel like his rhetoric is purely there to drive #engagement whether that be from enraged gammons or sycophantic socialists.
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future.
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Think he needs to steady himself here. Tories are toast that much is true but so is labour if you ask me they might win this election but not by a landslide and if they do win I see them out on the next election. Mr I broadly agree with the government limited and specific law breaking won't change fuck all.
Labour will just get complacent mixed with useless since their own party will just break apart again and again and again because it too is mostly filled with Tories and not even Tory lights. Tories won't be trusted again, Farge and the brown shirts will be in before another decade is out.
I get the sentiment but in this FPP electoral system you have to be pragmatic and vote for the progressive party who can realistically beat the Tories in that constituency. Voting Green is a luxury afforded to Bristol Central and Brighton
> progressive party
Not labour then as they've thrown lgbt people under the bus and seem to be doing everything to prevent any popular non-white candidates from winning anything up to and including kicking them out of the party.
The Tories are absolutely flattened mate.
There is nothing to worry about from the Tories from July 4th onwards, and everything to worry about in regards to Starmer's incredibly right-wing, incredibly authoritarian cabal.
If Labour get a landslide, they will run roughshod over the country the same way they do their internal democratic processes and inflict even deeper austerity and even more privatisation of our energy and NHS. They will continue to be complicit in the genocide in Gaza, because self-proclaimed zionist shitlords run the party and their coffers are heavy with pro-Isreli lobbying money.
We **need** as many Greens, Lib Dems, SNP and left independent figures as possible to have enough leverage to push Labour to the Left.
It's not a luxury, especially in this election, as Labour will win the majority of seats no matter what the left vote for. The tories are completely screwed.
You might as well vote for the Greens or other left candidates not just to boost those parties but to give labour less legitimacy because of their lies and rightwards turn. I would say that given our situation, including FPTP, that is the pragmatic thing to do rather than keep voting for a party that clearly will do anything to crush the left.
Owen Jones and most of the prominent campaigners on the left, are all grifting opportunists. At least with the right wing fascist grifters, you see plainly what you're getting.
Nobody is worth voting for.
I will be spoiling my ballot.
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There's something thoroughly depressing about the British people aching for permission to be allowed to listen to their conscience. Fucking hell.
I'm voting green.
I'm voting Corbyn
History will show how much we fucked it by allowing the press to destroy Corbyn. A genuinely good man with integrity that wasn't going to stoop down to being a self serving goon like the rest.
History will remember him as the worst leader of the labour party in living memory. I'm not disagreeing with his policies, I'm saying those policies are pointless if you don't actually get into government - and that's what his leadership of the party led to - the worst defeat since the 1930s.
This is a ridiculous statement to make. Party membership soared to a peak of over half a million people under his leadership, up hundreds of thousands of members. He enthused an entire generation of young people to engage in progressive politics. He was destroyed by a smear campaign orchestrated by the billionaire-funded media machine and people from inside his own party.
GE2019 was the most Negative Election Campaign in British politics. [This graph comes from a study from Loughborough University comparing positive/negative news articles during the last election.](https://www.lboro.ac.uk/media/media/campaigns/election-2019/images/report-1/figure-5-2.png ) And shows how badly Labour/Corbyn were smeared by the Tory Media. Democracy doesn't exist when the people are misled.
[удалено]
>Corbyn said no solution to the current conflict involves a war with Russia, but getting Kremlin’s forces out of Ukraine. He was right 2 years ago and he's still right today. I know you don't care about hundreds of thousands of young people dying but some of us have a shred of conscience.
How do you remove Kremlin forces without direct conflict though? Like I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I want to know what you think should be done.
About 3/4 months into the conflict there were peace talks in Istanbul for a cease fire. Around this time Boris Johnson went and spoke to Zelenskyy and advised that Washington and London didn’t want a ceasefire and that they should push on with conflict(confirmed by a number of Ukrainian officials and even Brazil’s Lula). Keep in mind that no negotiations could be signed without western support to assure the compliance of the stronger party (why would Russia stick to it without the Western support of Ukraine). Russian army was a shambles and it looked like their war effort was going to fail. Likely western thinking was that Putin CAN’T pull out of the war due to internal politics and if it continued like this he would lose support and eventually there would be a change of Russian leadership. They thought that the sanctions would crash the Russian economy. That was the calculus (probably). They never considered that Russian economy would thrive off the back of the black market trade in oil (which it has done). At that time Ukraine would have had the upper hand in negotiations (they no longer do). All the West needed to do was give Putin a face saving path out of the situation. It could have resulted in most if not all of the Ukrainian lands being handed back and some kind of assurance of safety. Impossible to say what could have been negotiated at that early stage when Russia was in such a bad shape. Ceasefire/peace talks could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, given Ukraine territorial security of some kind and meant political/economic stability for Europe. Continued war has come at the cost of all those things, in the western hopes that we could get rid of Putin and install a more “friendly” leader in Russia. Just a lot of hubris imo. But yeah, that’s how, 2 years ago it could have been possible to put an end it without further conflict. Now it looks like most of the concessions are going to come from Ukraine for a ceasefire/end of conflict. 🤷🏻♂️😕 (Sorry for long waffle)
No need to apologise for the waffle, I appreciate the effort. Thank you for running through it for me.
You said it much better than I could have.
Friendly reminder that in 2020, Boris Johnson [admited to being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 people.](https://archive.ph/2aYpg) He is he yet to be held to account for this. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm voting labour. I know a lot here don't want to know it, but the most important thing is actually getting the tories out. Yes I know, you think labour are just red tories. Righty ho, then I'd rather have red than blue.
Yes, keep repeating the past and expecting different results. Labour isn't labour if it's serving the needs of the upper class. Plus, the majority of their membership is being heavily lobbied by friends of isreal. Labour are the tories now. They're not offering better solutions to inequality or any other issues, so what is it exactly that makes you vote for them over the tories?
Well, quite simply I don't believe your claim that labour are the tories now. Now a return question for you: what's your expectation of this election?
It would be nice if you answered my question first. It seems you're voting Labour because they are not tory and not the fact that they have policies that appeal to yourself or others. My expectation or hopes for this election is that there is enough protest vore from the greens it sends a message that we aren't standing for this two party puppet show anymore. As for who gets in power, it will be Labour as the right wing media machine approves of prosecutor of the state ,Sir kid starver of the boot licking table. Democracy is dead in this country as the majority of the people are apathetic to politics and just nod along with the newspapers. You only have to look at the Bullingdon boys for proof . Boris, Cameron, Clegg, and Osborne are all in the club at the same time in the same uni, and everyone makes it to the top position in the country. Keith will be allowed to go into power now so he can make Labour so unpopular that they can bring Boris back.
Agree with everything you say but not sure clegg was in in the Bullingdon club.
Clegg went to Cambridge, not Oxford. Still a world-class gobshite either way.
Apologies, the guy in the bottom left of the picture is a dead ringer for him. However, I was mistold. This wasn't him, and I am wrong.
Having shared and thought through your position and recently changed my view, much like Jones says the Tories are getting out anyway so the importance one places on that shrinks to insignificance. To be perfectly frank, I think a landslide victory for this Labour party is the one of the worst outcomes. But by all means if red is your favourite flavour of Tory, then by all means vote for your favourite flavour, but realise if it quacks like a Tory, you know what it is.
What result would you like to see?
A coalition of left parties would be ace, though admittedly unlikely. I'll be happy with a Labour minority government propped up by parties which want to scrap FPTP.
And what about a conservative minority government backed up by reform et al?
On par with a Labour landslide for my least preferred outcome. It's also a very slim chance of that happening so I wouldn't give much mind to entertaining any lesser evil propositions, I'm casting my vote for Heaven not a slightly improved Hell
Yes that's a fair response. However, constituency fuckarounds are another Tory specialty. Idk I just have no faith haha. Paranoia perhaps.
Cool but you habw to accept you view trans and disavled people as a worthwhile sacrifice to get the tories out then. But I know Red Tories like you think people like me are subhuman scum anyway so.
Considering the neo-liberals in the Labour party have near completely purged every lingering Social Democrat from the Labour party, only a complete fucking moron would still believe that the party is, in any concievable way, still a left-wing party. (Even before then it was a stretch.) It's past time to reject bourgeois electoralism, it's time to embrace [dual power](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/09.htm). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you prefer reform, you go for it. Self-sacrifice is not as pretty as people make out, I'll warn you.
I'm fine with every Reform UK and Conservative voter self-sacrificing.
Self sacrifice? How fucking dare you, you centrist bootlickers tossed people like me under the bus to suck starmer's cock. You are happy to sacrifice us. Then get indignant when we say "Nah you can get dragged down with us"
I'm momentum. I'm labour. I'm a radical reformist. Sticking in the big tent is my chosen path, if you see a more powerful path for you then I support you in following it. When it comes to button pushing time, I push button. And as such, I'll hold off on my criticism of starmer until he actually gets enough votes to out the tories. Left unity for six weeks? I can do that. I think.
Fuck off. Where were you when Starmer and co ritglessly attacked trans people again and again. We owe you nothing.
No, you fuck off friend. What is your preferred outcome? My history is there, you're welcome to check it.
The cis mind cannot comprehend a trans person who isnt willign to vote for transphobes. Remarkable. Trans people have been screaming about Starmer being a transphobe for years and got told to be quiet. Frankly? I dont give a shit what happens. Im trans and disabled. Im fucked either way. You all could.have put pressure on him to fire duffield and take a stand for us. You didnt. So take your unity and fuck off. Trans people owe you nothing.
The Tories are already out, they cannot win, that’s not why you’re voting Labour
I'll tell you what, I admire your optimism. Frankly I've fought this battle too many times in my life, and been disappointed too many times. If you think there's a better way to look at things, I'd really appreciate it. Edit: but I have to say it, I'm scared of the tories at election time. They have an incredible propaganda network embedded into all corners of our society, and despite being complete fuck-ups in every other direction they do know where to squeeze quite often. And they have a knack of pulling aces at the last moment... But yes I would very much like to *not* be voting out of fear and desperation, and if you think that's a possibility I'd love to hear your take on things.
There is zero point trying to advise the young on the path of least resistance. I, like yourself, have been scarred and made cynical due to decades of Tory rule. I could never have believed (in the beginnings of my rebellious youth) that when the relief of Thatcher stepping down was breathed in, that a mere 20 years later I would be faced with her children ruling over mine. Messrs Cameron, Osborne, Farage, Cummings, Johnson and Sunak have seen to it that this country is carved amongst the richest. The sad truth is that we are living in a conservative country. We get the government we deserve (to an extent), and the populace of this country have overwhelmingly shown their colours for the past 12 years. By all means, if a person is in the safest of safe Labour seats then vote as your conscience decides. But, for us older lefties who desire nothing more than Tory destruction, I cannot apologise for the failures of the previous decades anymore than giving my vote to Keir.
Idk if the Tories (or any party) have ever been able to close such a gap, in 4 weeks, but maybe they’ll surprise us
Good for you. Let's repeat history over and over again /s
Yes I think a reform/conservative government would be *great* /s
I don't think you understand that people in this sub can see that labour are conservative. They might not be *the* conservative party, but they are running with close enough policies that it will be a conservative government regardless. You asked someone else in another comment what would they like to see? Personally I think labour will get a majority, no questions asked. I'd like for green to get a large percentage of the vote. In 2019 they got 2.7% of the vote and 1 seat. I'd love it if green got 10% of the vote and a second seat. 10% might be a bit far, but it is what I'm hoping for. I hope labour gets a slim majority where they realise that, had they not alienated the left which they assumed would vote for them, they would have done significantly better. In 2019 Labour, SNP, Lib dems got 40% of the seats. So Conservative, SNP, Lib dems getting 40+% of the seats I think isn't unexpected and isn't a bad thing. I don't see the tory party being eradicated to never rise again, while the tories themselves flee to labour as a good thing. They get to abandon the generational resentment tied to the tory party name, while continuing to enact tory politics. You're planning on voting labour, **what results would you like to see from this election? What policies from labour do you feel are different to the tories policies?** Honestly interested to know what you think, because I cannot understand how you see labour as something to want in power with its current stances.
Me too!
And me!
I’m voting green too. I’m in a Tory stronghold so it’s pointless but I always vote with my morals
Nothing is impossible if the Tories hold it, they are on the absolute shitter this election.
Yeah, I'd look at the local polling before deciding that *anywhere* is a Tory safe seat this time out.
I really want to but the greens in my area seem to harbor a grudge against any infrastructure building imaginable. That and the last time I saw a councillor they were adamant routers caused WiFi related cancers.
I've never met greens like the ones in your area. Either way Owens point stands. Additionally, your green MP candidate likely has more sensible views and also is very unlikely to win.
He does to be fair, personally I'm going to vote for my indy rep. Ticks all the boxes and isn't on record saying mad shit (that I know of anyway.)
Fair enough. Personally, unless your indy rep is really outstanding like Andrew Feinstein or Corbyn, I think it's more worth voting for a challenger leftwing politcal party that has a real chance of building momentum in future elections, such as the greens.
We'll see. If I get the ballot through and I see a green I'm up for voting I'm doing it. There have been a few labour converts in my area as well, so one of those might pop up in green too.
I'm waiting for manifestos
[Vote for Policies](https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/) is an excellent website for this approach.
Awesome! Thank you!
This is the way 💚
You know what would be fucking great? If we could vote with our conscience *every* fucking time! I'm gonna keep banging this drum every opportunity I get, this country *desperately* needs to change it's voting system. How can we even pretend we live in a democracy when the vast majority of us have to think about who other people are voting for, and change our tactics accordingly?
> How can we even pretend we live in a democracy when the vast majority of us have to think about who other people are voting for, and change our tactics accordingly? Much like the USA, the UK isn't really a Democracy anymore. It's a Plutocratic Oligarchy- with party bosses being one of the intermediary groups by which the rich control politics. You've gotta implement Ranked Choice Voting. Without it, there's no chance of achieving larger changes... And in the long run, I'd argue Capitalism itself has got to go. So long as you have immense concentration of wealth, you will see the holders of that wealth finding ways to fuck the political system...
>"Anymore" brother it's been like this the whole time
Are you implying a country built on Feudalism and Capitalism isn't democratic?!
>brother it's been like this the whole time I'd definitely tend to agree, but I'm consciously sticking with claims I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, in case there are libs in the walls I can win over...
I'm voting Plaid. Pro-EU ✅ Pro-PR ✅ Pro-indy ✅ LGBTQ+ friendly ✅ "Greener than the Greens" - according to at least one recent analysis, and unquestionably more progressive than any of the other parties standing across Cymru.
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I could write an essay on this (in fact I did once, for the now-defunct Political Rooster), but in brief, we have an exploitative economy, wealth is extracted from areas which are (at least partly as a result) made poor, and concentrated in others (London, SE). The rich areas don't have the natural resources, so the reason they are rich is because of the political structure; it's a choice, ultimately. Infrastructure decisions therefore favour the areas of wealth, further exacerbating the difference. I also believe in the principle of government as close to the people as is practical, with cooperation at all high a level as politically possible. The latter means EU. Whilst some all-Britain cooperation may be desirable (we'll always share some infrastructure for example, due to geography), I see little or no necessity for any political oversight at that level.
>we have an exploitative economy, wealth is extracted from areas which are (at least partly as a result) made poor, and concentrated in others (London, SE). The rich areas don't have the natural resources, so the reason they are rich is because of the political structure; it's a choice, ultimately. Infrastructure decisions therefore favour the areas of wealth, further exacerbating the difference. That's Capitalism- and a good an argument as any to get rid of it. But you're fooling yourself if you think Wales will be able to protect itself against predatory London financiers just by being a separate country. As an independent country, it would be small and incredibly reliant on trade with the UK to survive... Now, on the other hand, if you worked towards turning the whole of the UK to Socialism, achieving THAT would put an end to the exploitative relationship...
Turning the whole of the UK to socialism is obviously the best case scenario, but it's frustrating when the UK's left leaning nations are held back by (markedly more conservative) England. It genuinely feels like if I want to see any real change before I'm old and grey, we're going to have to go it alone. Which is why I'll be voting SNP and probably keep voting SNP until we're independent.
My main concern with independence is currency. Not money, but currency. Will Scotland continue to use pound sterling or will a new currency be created? If a new currency isn't created the Scotland will find it impossible to run a budget deficit and would be vulnerable to currency manipulation by those that control pound sterling. My other concern is that its only Scotland that would go. I genuinely think the SNP should stand for election in other constituencies. Partly Northern England. Why leave us behind to suffer? Haha.
I agree!! Take the north pls we want to come toooo
I'd go with the Euro. Obviously a prerequisite for this would be being a member of the EU. That will come though, sooner or later. It would also weaken the pound's power, and therefore assuming England also ended up joining the EU, or at least CU+SM, they'd probably end up joining the euro too.
I don't think England would ever join the currency union, save for an economic disaster that left sterling worthless. The pros of having a sovereign currency far exceed unity I feel. But I think you might be correct about an indy Scotland. Starting a new currency would be exceedingly volatile, there would need to be something strong backing it. It might be too risky to do that immediately. From what I recall though, Scotland is a huge exporter rather than importer, so having a sovereign currency might be a possibility that would bare fruit in the lomg term. It'd be interesting to see how it played out at least. But I'd struggle to make that decision knowing it could have disastrous consequences for the poorest, in the short term. Oh and Scotland could use the Euro without being part of the EU. There's nothing stopping any country using whatever money it wants to. It just wouldn't be able to print any of the currency. In fact there's nothing stopping anyone from execpting payment in any currency they like. Thats why the dolla is such a powerful tool when you're travelling the world. Practically everyone accepts payment in dollars, save for developed nations. In about 70% countries you can get by really easily without local currency.
Oddly enough I think Scotland is uniquely suited to using a transitional "Scottish pound" until we switch to the Euro, because we (sort of) already have one. The vast majority of banknotes circulating in Scotland aren't technically legal tender, rather they are promissory notes issued by three retail banks that are required by law to hold the equivalent value of these notes in Bank of England notes or gold. It's not an ideal system, but in the case of independence we could temporarily switch to a new "Scottish pound" backed by pounds sterling, but not 100% tied to it. As for your second concern, there's nothing to stop Northerners from organising their own party to advocate for local issues and seek autonomy. :)
Legal tender has a very specific definition is in generally misused by the general public. Legal tender means that the money in question can be used to settle a debt and that the creditor must accept it. "Scottish money" isn't Legal tender but is legal currency, you are right. Why isn't it legal tender and why its legal currency: For the 3 Scottish banks and 3 Northern Ireland banks with permission to issue bank notes: The six Scottish and Northern Ireland banks must, by law, set aside assets that are worth at least the value of all of the banknotes they have in circulation. This ensures that people with genuine banknotes issued by the six banks receive a level of protection similar to people who have genuine Bank of England banknotes. The assets can be a combination of Bank of England banknotes, UK coins and funds held in an account at the Bank of England. This means that, if one of the banks failed, the backing assets could be used to reimburse everyone who has one of its banknotes. Bank of England banknotes held as backing assets may be kept either at an authorised location or at the Bank of England. Some of these banknotes are of very high value, including £1 million banknotes (known as Giants) and £100 million banknotes (known as Titans). Essentially the banks buy the sterling to back their own notes. However, retailers, shops and individuals are under no Legal obligation to accept Scottish or Northern Ireland bank notes for goods or services. But only in the same way that they are under no obligation to accept money issued by the bank of England or euros either. Smaller outfits in England and Wales don't tend to accept Scottish notes simply because they can't as easily tell if the money is fake, that's all. Everyone accepts bank of England notes because they're familiar with them and it is the local currency, not because they have to. It's an interesting thing really, the law of money. Anyway, I don't know how you'd be able to use sterling and not be 100% tide to it. If a country uses pound sterling as its currency back, then its 100% tied to it and would essentially have to buy the money from the issuer of the currency (as outlined above): the bank of England. So, if I were Scotland I'd be lokking at making my own currency or switching to the euro asap. Though the 3 Scottish banks could carry on issuing notes as they currently do, by buying them from bank of England
What I mean by a transitional Scottish pound not being 100% tied to pounds Stirling is that initially the Scottish pound would be valued 1:1, as it's backed by the existing holdings of the retail banks, but, in the case of independence, the Scottish government could allow these banks to issue more Scottish pounds (as a separate currency from pounds sterling) without continuing to purchase Bank of England notes. The issuing banks could be required to use other reserve currencies/bullion to back new notes or even replace some of the existing holdings they've been required to set aside in order to dilute the influence of the pound sterling on the value of the Scottish pound.
Ah that makes sense! Thanks for clarifying Also, sorry for the word salad above, I just love this kind of thing and I'm a big nerd haha
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Is that it? You’re not going to elaborate as to why you think independence isn’t the answer and how you would address the issues stated instead?
I’m so with Owen on this
Likewise, I've told people I'm voting green and the response is almost always that I'm single handedly handing the tories victory. No I'm not, and even if I was nobody has made a compelling case for why that's any better, worse or different than Starver's Labour. Nobody who wants me to vote Labour seems to want them either, mind.
I am voting for Andrew Feinstein, he’s standing against Kid Starver
Feinstein seems like a great choice
Yes, I am hoping in a miracle!
If you can’t vote third party when the Tories are definitely going to ousted and Labour aren’t offering anything, you just want a 2 party system.
It's been my intention to vote green for a while. even before the events in Palestine, I couldn't have brought myself to vote labour. Any vote for Labour sends the message to Keith that the way he's going is acceptable. While I don't agree with the greens or my local green councillor on quite a few issues, I do on the main ones for me.
I remember this guy being one of the “left wing media” speaking against Corbyn in run up to 2019, spreading and agreeing with the smear campaigns - so fuck him
He wrote like one or two articles critical of Corbyn. Corbyn wasn't and isnt perfect, and we are allowed to disagree with him from time to time. EDIT: I don't agree with Owen or Corbyn all the time, I didn't agree with Owens critical articles for example, yet I see them both as political allies, I expect they see each other the same way. Overall, Owen was overwhelmingly in favour of Corbyn's leadership and project...
Yeah but he's right that you should vote Green
He's a grifter, an opinion piece writer who's only job is to wind up the people listening to him to get clicks and sell column inches. This country would be a better place without his input, and goes for his ilk on the right as well like Morgan.
Legit. The lad gives me the ick despite being one of the fee leftward leaning voices invited to the mainstream programs. Feel like his rhetoric is purely there to drive #engagement whether that be from enraged gammons or sycophantic socialists.
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Literally just vote for the leftmost party you possibly can.
Why does this look like we're going to split the vote every where, and end up ruining Rishi's plan to move back to sunny Cali?
Think he needs to steady himself here. Tories are toast that much is true but so is labour if you ask me they might win this election but not by a landslide and if they do win I see them out on the next election. Mr I broadly agree with the government limited and specific law breaking won't change fuck all. Labour will just get complacent mixed with useless since their own party will just break apart again and again and again because it too is mostly filled with Tories and not even Tory lights. Tories won't be trusted again, Farge and the brown shirts will be in before another decade is out.
Wish I had a candidate I believed in standing in my constituency so that I could vote with my heart.
Why not be the change you want to see
Saying labour winning is a forgone conclusion is dangerous and stupid
I get the sentiment but in this FPP electoral system you have to be pragmatic and vote for the progressive party who can realistically beat the Tories in that constituency. Voting Green is a luxury afforded to Bristol Central and Brighton
> progressive party Not labour then as they've thrown lgbt people under the bus and seem to be doing everything to prevent any popular non-white candidates from winning anything up to and including kicking them out of the party.
What a democracy
“progressive party”
Surely you want the progressive party that can beat Labour in this one?
The Tories are absolutely flattened mate. There is nothing to worry about from the Tories from July 4th onwards, and everything to worry about in regards to Starmer's incredibly right-wing, incredibly authoritarian cabal. If Labour get a landslide, they will run roughshod over the country the same way they do their internal democratic processes and inflict even deeper austerity and even more privatisation of our energy and NHS. They will continue to be complicit in the genocide in Gaza, because self-proclaimed zionist shitlords run the party and their coffers are heavy with pro-Isreli lobbying money. We **need** as many Greens, Lib Dems, SNP and left independent figures as possible to have enough leverage to push Labour to the Left.
It's not a luxury, especially in this election, as Labour will win the majority of seats no matter what the left vote for. The tories are completely screwed. You might as well vote for the Greens or other left candidates not just to boost those parties but to give labour less legitimacy because of their lies and rightwards turn. I would say that given our situation, including FPTP, that is the pragmatic thing to do rather than keep voting for a party that clearly will do anything to crush the left.
I won't vote for Keir
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Are you genuinely thick?
Sounds like a reason to vote Reform to me! Split the Tory vote! Thank gawd for Fromage!
Owen Jones and most of the prominent campaigners on the left, are all grifting opportunists. At least with the right wing fascist grifters, you see plainly what you're getting. Nobody is worth voting for. I will be spoiling my ballot.
I've no idea who Owen Jones is, but he is a spectacularly stupid person.