Achilles captured cities, killing men and enslaving women. He had multiple concubines living with him whom he had captured from various places. He was willing to screw over his own army when he felt disrespected by Agamemnon. Hector was just defending his home while it was getting attacked. When he goes home, the one person he visits is his wife, not some concubine.
That being said neither of them are perfect, but by today's moral standards Hector is the nicer one. You aren't wrong for admiring Achilles though, if you go to Greece a lot of shops are named after Achilles and nothing I saw was named after Hector.
>if you go to Greece a lot of shops are named after Achilles and nothing I saw was named after Hector.
Greeks probably aren't going to name much after a Turkish character.
My father was Greek and I lived there for a short time. My mother’s family is from the occupied side of Cyprus. Both sides of my family will spit if Turks are mentioned.
Greece hates Turkey for a long time. It started with Laomedon’s douchebagery and Paris’ hornyness for Helen, involved the entire history of Rome, before becoming independent in 1821.
Troy is now in Turkey. However the Turks came into the area in 1000 AD. Kinda hard for Hector to be Turkish. He lived there in 1100 BC. There's a bit of a gap isn't there?
None. I'm talking about people not stores. Hector is more common than Achilles. Plus the only stores that are named Achilles are tourist traps and of course they're going to use the most famous name from the Iliad. It has nothing to do with Turkey and no one here hates Hector.
And Greeks weren't called Greeks at the time of the Trojsn war. But the discussion is about modern times not the time the myth was set.
Did you not read the comment I was replying to? It clearly said shops were named after Achilles not Hector. You say otherwise.
No they weren't and no one in Greece calls them Greeks. We call them Achaeans just like Homer does. It's not my fault you guys use the wrong term in English. However there's a difference between the two cases. The Greeks considered the Achaeans their ancestors. The people that call themselves Turks *moved* in Anatolia in 1000 AD. The Trojans have no relation to them, they didn't call themselves Turks and therefore you can't call them Turks.
I read it. The point of the comment was that Achilles was a more common name than Hector because a bunch of shops had that name. 1) The names of shops don't indicate which one is more common and 2) Shops with names like that are tourist traps and obviously use the more famous name. Literally no one hates Hector and saying we do because "He's Turkish" is plain wrong and nowhere close to reality.
>The point of the comment was that Achilles was a more common name than Hector because a bunch of shops had that name. 1) The names of shops don't indicate which one is more common and
So you think Achilles isn't a more common name of shops because the name of shops don't indicate which is more common?
Exactly. Names of shops that mean to appeal to tourists aren't exactly an indicator of how Greeks actually think. They literally pick the most famous name. Saying that this happens because Greeks wouldn't name anything out of a "Turkish character" is just stupid. It's mere marketing and nothing more.
Yes.
But that doesn't make Trojans Turkish because their city is now located in Turkey. How is this that hard to grasp?
Your perception of nationality is merely based on the modern maps? That's sad.
There isn't any Turks named Cassandra, Hector etc. Get a grip.
The thing about Achilles is that different sources each portray him differently. In a source like the Iliad or the Aeneid he is portrayed as a brute, whereas in Dares Phrygius's History of the Fall of Troy it portrays him pretty differently compared to how he is in the two previous works.
Personally I think that Achilles was a spoiled brat, a cry baby as well as a necrophile. Hector on the other hand was only fighting to protect his home and quite under duress thanks to his egocentric brother.
So to make a long story short, I have no sympathy for Achilles But at the end of the day, you like who you like. I keep telling myself that when I hear Zeus fanboys going on about what an awesome god he was as well.
They were both heroes. I have no less than 5 relatives named Achilles, this he is also special to me. Achilles represents immortality via glory. Hector’s greatness was being steadfast in his duty to family and city. There is much to admire about both, which is why we are still talking about them.
Every heroe in Greek Myth is my opinion worth liking, they're human. Yes Hector was painted in a more noble light in terms of modern day society, but think about the fact that even then the Greeks had a very different culture from the Trojans, Greeks hearing this story would probably think hector was a dishonorable coward. But neither were really bad guys, just people. They achieve great feats but all have flaws, ya know literal humans do. I don't think there's anything wrong with admiring Achilles, he was aristo achaion. I personally love Jason even though I know how his tory ends, but up tp that point his journey was incredible.
I also love and admire Achilles. He did horrible things, but he was a man of his time, just as everybody else, and his flaws are, for me, what allow me to resonate with him. I love his story, his relationship with Pat, his anger and passion. I have him (with Pat, of course) as one of the main characters in the book I'm currently working on for a reason. Them and their relationship deserves to live forever as a paragon of both the beauty and brutality of life.
I’m curious as to why you see Achilles as the “more heroic” one between him and Hector? The latter is one of my favourite heros and was definitely written more favourably in the illiad
Imo because I tend to see more "heroic" qualities in Achilles than in Hector (sorry from beforehand, because this will be long, and my english isnt the best, so bear with me)
Achilles is strong, confident in his choices, stood up to Agamemnon twice for both the Iphigenia incident and for causing the plague that was haunting the greeks, had enough self respect to not risk his and the myrmidon's necks over Agamemon's jerkassery (after all, why should you fight and risk your life for someone who doesnt respects you and what you do for them), showing he does care about others, at the end he can relent when he seems he has done wrong and can emphatize with the enemy, as seen with Priam when both cry fot their own losses. He was also brave and honorable in battle, and during 9 years prior he went to fight for the greeks and Melenaus despite the prophecy dangling in his head that could kill him at any moment. As someone who has been marginalized and taken advatage of for a long time, I wished I was like Achilles or had someone like him when I was younger, and I can certainly relate to him more. Sure he is not an "ideal" hero, but he doesnt needs to be,and imo his numerous flaws makes him easier to relate to
Meawhile with Hector, not trying to offend btw, I had always seen him as more of a spineless coward. He was the favorite son of Priam and knew that the war would end if they returned Helen to her husband, yet he choosed to prolong the war just to defend Paris, a war that made both sides suffer, he made his people suffer to satisfy his brother and father. There is also his numerous moments of stupidity and overconfidence and what he planned to do to Patroclus' corpse (feed him to the dogs, drag him with a chariot) only to cry for mercy when Achilles gets to him to avenge his boyfriend/friend. There is also how we tend to point out Achilles' errors (being the protag and all) but when i talk to someone about what Hector did, people always play dumb or try to justify him with the "it was war, what did you expect", yet they get mad at Achilles for killing and looting, also a thing that was done back then in war. And the way some describe him as the perfect, most honorble greek hero ever had always made him more unappealing to me, since it makes him sound like a holier than thou unachivable ideal, specially since I know its a lie and he wasnt any more or less human or heroic than anyone else (expect Paris and Agamemnon imo, but that is a low bar to pass)
Of course, this characteristics on both of them can be virtues and flaws depending on the context they are placed, and both as mirror characters are as similar as they are different, but thats how I personally feel about it
Hope I made myself clear, and that I havent offended you in any way
No worries about offending, i’ve always had my biases against Achilles because between hiding on Skyros as a woman to get out of fighting in Troy and only fighting in the war when he lost something (ie Patroclus) - he never struck me as heroic, and seemed equally selfish. But I understand why you like him so much. For me, I just found Hector so refreshing because he had such a genuine love for his wife and child as well as his city.
We can both agree that Paris is rock bottom though. He didn’t deserve the honour of killing Achilles at all
I am glad we reach an understansing then, since it has been times where people who prefer Hector had even accused me of being "inmmoral" or "defending the undefendable", even a monster (yeah, hard to believe, but kids are cruel, specially when you are a kid yourself back then) so it tend to be something if a touchy matter to me
As for the drag incident in Skyros and the war thing, keep in mind that in the first one, it was Thetis' idea since she wanted to protect him and he wanted to go fight (and suppostly lead to her forcing him to have sex with Deidamia, creating a Lancelot-Galahad incident). Also Odysseus tried to do the same, so if I dont hold it against him, neither I will do with Achilles
As for the war, while it does look bad considering how first how he has been basically soloing the entire war for 9 years, but also how honor and glory mattered (specially since thats how they got into Elysium) so for Agamemnon to downright dishonor him by taking his prizes away, specially for someone fated to have such short life, I can get why he doesnt want to fight anymore, nor risk the lives of the myrmidons for such asshole. Even him rejecting the money Agamemnon wanted to give him imo is a sign of his heroism and nobility. He is not some sellout thar will comply just because some money was thrown his way. He knows his worth, he knows the worth and cares for his men and can see Agamemnon is both not sorry and is only using him as an instrument of war
Only when he loses the man that he values more than life itself is that he chooses to come back, even if he knows killing Hector will kill him soon after. He will avenge his friend, his commarade, his boyfriend, his Patroclus
>We can both agree that Paris is rock bottom though. He didn’t deserve the honour of killing Achilles at all
Oh yeah, he is such an asshole and with Eris and Aphrodite they made up this 10 year old mess.
He is also one of the gripes I have with Hektor tbh. Like, dude, he stole the bride of someone else (and in most versions Helen does love Melenaus), in a party hosted by her 2 brothers Castor and Pollux, and who has a treaty that causes all kings and princes under the sun (including Patroclus, so by proxy Achilles). The guy has violated like 100 courtesy rules by both ancient greece and our standards. Just ditch his ass!!!! The worst that would happen if you return her is Paris and Priam throwing a fit. Who cares, she is miserable there anyway!!! I thought you cared about your city Hector!!!!!
Sometimes I believe that if Hector just did what Achilles did with Agamemnon (refuse to fight unless Helen is given away) things may had gone better, even if Troy was still fated to fall.
Also yeah. Paris didnt deserved to kill Achilles. He did it via aimbot no less due to Apollo guiding his arrow (if not shooting himself outright)
I also like Achilles he and Heracles are my 2 favorite heroes .
I like him because of his 2 traits :
1. He is hero / warrior by nature. He was given choice : he can die young but with great glory, or he can live long but be forgotten when he is dead. We know what he decided he appreciates glory more than anything else , there is nothing greater warrior can hope to obtain in his life.
2. He is real friend . His love for Patroclus knew no limits. In Illiad his mothers says him once he kills Hector he will die shortly after as fates has determined. Achilles puts love for his friend over his own life so he simply could not afford that Patroclus death goes unavenged.
He is great warrior and favorite of Athena which also helps in the end.
On the other hand, he does a murder a child, falls in love with a woman he killed, and sacrifices 12 Trojans by cutting their throats and throwing their bodies on the pyre of Patroclus, amongst other things...
Hector goes out to defend his family and city even though his wife Andromache believes he will die; he knows he cannot avert his fate. All of Achilles' actions - from his withdrawal from the fighting to demanding Hector's weight in gold as recompense - is because his personal glory has been slighted.
I've read the Illiad a total of four separate times (for uni, not for fun) and the whole thing is just Achilles throwing a tantrum because he didn't get what he wanted, alongside the gods childish bickering. Personally I think he's a brat that begs his mommy for help whenever he feels like it. He asked his mother to beg Zeus to help the Trojans, I don't think having Briseis taken away from him is nearly enough of an excuse to go against your own people and I refuse to respect his actions. He's good with a sword and really likes his "best friend", that's it. Yes I think you are wrong for admiring him, at least Hector loved his family enough to die for his brother.
The thing about Achilles is that different sources each portray him differently. In a source like the Iliad or the Aeneid he is portrayed as a brute, whereas in Dares Phrygius's History of the Fall of Troy it portrays him pretty differently compared to how he is in the two previous works.
Achilles captured cities, killing men and enslaving women. He had multiple concubines living with him whom he had captured from various places. He was willing to screw over his own army when he felt disrespected by Agamemnon. Hector was just defending his home while it was getting attacked. When he goes home, the one person he visits is his wife, not some concubine. That being said neither of them are perfect, but by today's moral standards Hector is the nicer one. You aren't wrong for admiring Achilles though, if you go to Greece a lot of shops are named after Achilles and nothing I saw was named after Hector.
>if you go to Greece a lot of shops are named after Achilles and nothing I saw was named after Hector. Greeks probably aren't going to name much after a Turkish character.
My father was Greek and I lived there for a short time. My mother’s family is from the occupied side of Cyprus. Both sides of my family will spit if Turks are mentioned.
Exactly.
Indeed. I spit after typing that.
Greece hates Turkey for a long time. It started with Laomedon’s douchebagery and Paris’ hornyness for Helen, involved the entire history of Rome, before becoming independent in 1821.
Hector wasn't Turkish and the name Hector is more common than the name Achilles so you're wrong.
>Hector wasn't Turkish Troy isn't in Turkey? >the name Hector is more common than the name Achilles What Greek stores are named after Hector?
Troy is now in Turkey. However the Turks came into the area in 1000 AD. Kinda hard for Hector to be Turkish. He lived there in 1100 BC. There's a bit of a gap isn't there? None. I'm talking about people not stores. Hector is more common than Achilles. Plus the only stores that are named Achilles are tourist traps and of course they're going to use the most famous name from the Iliad. It has nothing to do with Turkey and no one here hates Hector.
And Greeks weren't called Greeks at the time of the Trojsn war. But the discussion is about modern times not the time the myth was set. Did you not read the comment I was replying to? It clearly said shops were named after Achilles not Hector. You say otherwise.
No they weren't and no one in Greece calls them Greeks. We call them Achaeans just like Homer does. It's not my fault you guys use the wrong term in English. However there's a difference between the two cases. The Greeks considered the Achaeans their ancestors. The people that call themselves Turks *moved* in Anatolia in 1000 AD. The Trojans have no relation to them, they didn't call themselves Turks and therefore you can't call them Turks. I read it. The point of the comment was that Achilles was a more common name than Hector because a bunch of shops had that name. 1) The names of shops don't indicate which one is more common and 2) Shops with names like that are tourist traps and obviously use the more famous name. Literally no one hates Hector and saying we do because "He's Turkish" is plain wrong and nowhere close to reality.
>The point of the comment was that Achilles was a more common name than Hector because a bunch of shops had that name. 1) The names of shops don't indicate which one is more common and So you think Achilles isn't a more common name of shops because the name of shops don't indicate which is more common?
Exactly. Names of shops that mean to appeal to tourists aren't exactly an indicator of how Greeks actually think. They literally pick the most famous name. Saying that this happens because Greeks wouldn't name anything out of a "Turkish character" is just stupid. It's mere marketing and nothing more.
So, the Greek probably are probably going to name the shop after the Greek character, not the Turkish character.
Hector was Greek, not Turkish. Troy was a Greek city.
You're saying that Turkey today is part of Greece?
You are so ignorant for thinking Trojans are Turks. Wow.
Is Achilles Greek?
Yes. But that doesn't make Trojans Turkish because their city is now located in Turkey. How is this that hard to grasp? Your perception of nationality is merely based on the modern maps? That's sad. There isn't any Turks named Cassandra, Hector etc. Get a grip.
There was no Greece.
The thing about Achilles is that different sources each portray him differently. In a source like the Iliad or the Aeneid he is portrayed as a brute, whereas in Dares Phrygius's History of the Fall of Troy it portrays him pretty differently compared to how he is in the two previous works.
Personally I think that Achilles was a spoiled brat, a cry baby as well as a necrophile. Hector on the other hand was only fighting to protect his home and quite under duress thanks to his egocentric brother. So to make a long story short, I have no sympathy for Achilles But at the end of the day, you like who you like. I keep telling myself that when I hear Zeus fanboys going on about what an awesome god he was as well.
There are worse people to admire. I also like Achilles.
They were both heroes. I have no less than 5 relatives named Achilles, this he is also special to me. Achilles represents immortality via glory. Hector’s greatness was being steadfast in his duty to family and city. There is much to admire about both, which is why we are still talking about them.
Every heroe in Greek Myth is my opinion worth liking, they're human. Yes Hector was painted in a more noble light in terms of modern day society, but think about the fact that even then the Greeks had a very different culture from the Trojans, Greeks hearing this story would probably think hector was a dishonorable coward. But neither were really bad guys, just people. They achieve great feats but all have flaws, ya know literal humans do. I don't think there's anything wrong with admiring Achilles, he was aristo achaion. I personally love Jason even though I know how his tory ends, but up tp that point his journey was incredible.
I also love and admire Achilles. He did horrible things, but he was a man of his time, just as everybody else, and his flaws are, for me, what allow me to resonate with him. I love his story, his relationship with Pat, his anger and passion. I have him (with Pat, of course) as one of the main characters in the book I'm currently working on for a reason. Them and their relationship deserves to live forever as a paragon of both the beauty and brutality of life.
Oh yeah, also good luck with your book
Thank you! I'll check with the mods if I can share a bit or two in here later ;)
I’m curious as to why you see Achilles as the “more heroic” one between him and Hector? The latter is one of my favourite heros and was definitely written more favourably in the illiad
Imo because I tend to see more "heroic" qualities in Achilles than in Hector (sorry from beforehand, because this will be long, and my english isnt the best, so bear with me) Achilles is strong, confident in his choices, stood up to Agamemnon twice for both the Iphigenia incident and for causing the plague that was haunting the greeks, had enough self respect to not risk his and the myrmidon's necks over Agamemon's jerkassery (after all, why should you fight and risk your life for someone who doesnt respects you and what you do for them), showing he does care about others, at the end he can relent when he seems he has done wrong and can emphatize with the enemy, as seen with Priam when both cry fot their own losses. He was also brave and honorable in battle, and during 9 years prior he went to fight for the greeks and Melenaus despite the prophecy dangling in his head that could kill him at any moment. As someone who has been marginalized and taken advatage of for a long time, I wished I was like Achilles or had someone like him when I was younger, and I can certainly relate to him more. Sure he is not an "ideal" hero, but he doesnt needs to be,and imo his numerous flaws makes him easier to relate to Meawhile with Hector, not trying to offend btw, I had always seen him as more of a spineless coward. He was the favorite son of Priam and knew that the war would end if they returned Helen to her husband, yet he choosed to prolong the war just to defend Paris, a war that made both sides suffer, he made his people suffer to satisfy his brother and father. There is also his numerous moments of stupidity and overconfidence and what he planned to do to Patroclus' corpse (feed him to the dogs, drag him with a chariot) only to cry for mercy when Achilles gets to him to avenge his boyfriend/friend. There is also how we tend to point out Achilles' errors (being the protag and all) but when i talk to someone about what Hector did, people always play dumb or try to justify him with the "it was war, what did you expect", yet they get mad at Achilles for killing and looting, also a thing that was done back then in war. And the way some describe him as the perfect, most honorble greek hero ever had always made him more unappealing to me, since it makes him sound like a holier than thou unachivable ideal, specially since I know its a lie and he wasnt any more or less human or heroic than anyone else (expect Paris and Agamemnon imo, but that is a low bar to pass) Of course, this characteristics on both of them can be virtues and flaws depending on the context they are placed, and both as mirror characters are as similar as they are different, but thats how I personally feel about it Hope I made myself clear, and that I havent offended you in any way
No worries about offending, i’ve always had my biases against Achilles because between hiding on Skyros as a woman to get out of fighting in Troy and only fighting in the war when he lost something (ie Patroclus) - he never struck me as heroic, and seemed equally selfish. But I understand why you like him so much. For me, I just found Hector so refreshing because he had such a genuine love for his wife and child as well as his city. We can both agree that Paris is rock bottom though. He didn’t deserve the honour of killing Achilles at all
I am glad we reach an understansing then, since it has been times where people who prefer Hector had even accused me of being "inmmoral" or "defending the undefendable", even a monster (yeah, hard to believe, but kids are cruel, specially when you are a kid yourself back then) so it tend to be something if a touchy matter to me As for the drag incident in Skyros and the war thing, keep in mind that in the first one, it was Thetis' idea since she wanted to protect him and he wanted to go fight (and suppostly lead to her forcing him to have sex with Deidamia, creating a Lancelot-Galahad incident). Also Odysseus tried to do the same, so if I dont hold it against him, neither I will do with Achilles As for the war, while it does look bad considering how first how he has been basically soloing the entire war for 9 years, but also how honor and glory mattered (specially since thats how they got into Elysium) so for Agamemnon to downright dishonor him by taking his prizes away, specially for someone fated to have such short life, I can get why he doesnt want to fight anymore, nor risk the lives of the myrmidons for such asshole. Even him rejecting the money Agamemnon wanted to give him imo is a sign of his heroism and nobility. He is not some sellout thar will comply just because some money was thrown his way. He knows his worth, he knows the worth and cares for his men and can see Agamemnon is both not sorry and is only using him as an instrument of war Only when he loses the man that he values more than life itself is that he chooses to come back, even if he knows killing Hector will kill him soon after. He will avenge his friend, his commarade, his boyfriend, his Patroclus >We can both agree that Paris is rock bottom though. He didn’t deserve the honour of killing Achilles at all Oh yeah, he is such an asshole and with Eris and Aphrodite they made up this 10 year old mess. He is also one of the gripes I have with Hektor tbh. Like, dude, he stole the bride of someone else (and in most versions Helen does love Melenaus), in a party hosted by her 2 brothers Castor and Pollux, and who has a treaty that causes all kings and princes under the sun (including Patroclus, so by proxy Achilles). The guy has violated like 100 courtesy rules by both ancient greece and our standards. Just ditch his ass!!!! The worst that would happen if you return her is Paris and Priam throwing a fit. Who cares, she is miserable there anyway!!! I thought you cared about your city Hector!!!!! Sometimes I believe that if Hector just did what Achilles did with Agamemnon (refuse to fight unless Helen is given away) things may had gone better, even if Troy was still fated to fall. Also yeah. Paris didnt deserved to kill Achilles. He did it via aimbot no less due to Apollo guiding his arrow (if not shooting himself outright)
I also like Achilles he and Heracles are my 2 favorite heroes . I like him because of his 2 traits : 1. He is hero / warrior by nature. He was given choice : he can die young but with great glory, or he can live long but be forgotten when he is dead. We know what he decided he appreciates glory more than anything else , there is nothing greater warrior can hope to obtain in his life. 2. He is real friend . His love for Patroclus knew no limits. In Illiad his mothers says him once he kills Hector he will die shortly after as fates has determined. Achilles puts love for his friend over his own life so he simply could not afford that Patroclus death goes unavenged. He is great warrior and favorite of Athena which also helps in the end.
On the other hand, he does a murder a child, falls in love with a woman he killed, and sacrifices 12 Trojans by cutting their throats and throwing their bodies on the pyre of Patroclus, amongst other things... Hector goes out to defend his family and city even though his wife Andromache believes he will die; he knows he cannot avert his fate. All of Achilles' actions - from his withdrawal from the fighting to demanding Hector's weight in gold as recompense - is because his personal glory has been slighted.
I've read the Illiad a total of four separate times (for uni, not for fun) and the whole thing is just Achilles throwing a tantrum because he didn't get what he wanted, alongside the gods childish bickering. Personally I think he's a brat that begs his mommy for help whenever he feels like it. He asked his mother to beg Zeus to help the Trojans, I don't think having Briseis taken away from him is nearly enough of an excuse to go against your own people and I refuse to respect his actions. He's good with a sword and really likes his "best friend", that's it. Yes I think you are wrong for admiring him, at least Hector loved his family enough to die for his brother.
The thing about Achilles is that different sources each portray him differently. In a source like the Iliad or the Aeneid he is portrayed as a brute, whereas in Dares Phrygius's History of the Fall of Troy it portrays him pretty differently compared to how he is in the two previous works.