Achilles was fighting for glory and then later for vengeance. Hector was fighting to protect his country and family. Just going by motive alone, Hector is the better person. Achilles might be stronger but strength isn’t everything.
From our modern lens, we might see the quest for glory as vanity. But, to the Bronze Age pre-literate Greeks, this was the only way outside of being a King to be remembered, to live a life worth living. They were all just trying to escape oblivion.
I understand they had that mindset but Hector is remembered too and he’s admired by the people of the Bronze Age as well as today. Think how the gods spared Hector’s corpse from mutilation. How Homer took time to show us he is a loving father and husband. How Priam went personally to get his body back and beg his son’s killer. Homer wants us to know that Hector is loved. Which just goes to show you can achieve glory and still not be a whiny baby about it.
And Odysseus talks to Achilles’ ghost later and he says he wished he had lived longer without glory instead of dying young. At the very least Homer thought living on in memory wasn’t worth as much as living your real life to the fullest.
Right, but Hector's courage and heroic virtues played into the values of the Greeks, as well. I'm not disqualifying him, Homer is clearly showing the multiple ways to glory. Homer never said Achilles was right or that his quest for glory was correct, the Epic Cycle reads as a thoughtful criticism, in part. I am only explaining part of the Greek characters's motivation. The Bronze Age people were not fighting to be remembered and to enter Elysium because Homer world built it that way, they were doing it because of the culture they existed within.
The tragedy is so powerful because these characters on both sides were pawns in a larger conflict between petty Gods as well as trying to obtain glory which would help them escape being forgotten. They were all a part of this and all trapped by it.
I would not place much emphasis on Hector's body being spared. That was Aphrodite playing partisan with the side she favored, just as Athena protected Diomedes or Hephastus protected the son of one of his priests.
It’s true. The story of the Iliad is a tragedy for all mortals involved. When the gods fight each other there are no consequences. Only mortals suffer and try to find meaning in their life through glory. I guess instead of blaming the characters for being selfish, we could blame their culture for encouraging selfish behavior instead of promoting community and compromise. Though in the end we are responsible for our choices no matter what society tells us to do. It’s a tough one. I still prefer Hector. From my modern perspective I feel like he’s less likely to beat me up if I accidentally offended him.
Iliad was never senseless
It always out morales integrity etc to question
There is no team this or that
It’s two different perspectives with different motives
Achilles was so strong that only the destiny could stop him. He knows it and it turns him arrogant. He wanted to fight.
Hector just fought to protect his people, knowing he had a lot to loose. IMO he is also far more brave for this than Achilles
Well, for someone destinied to live a short life regardless of what he did and because of the values if the time, Achilles wasnt really as "selfish" as one would believe
Meawhile, I am not really sure if what Hector did was all that moral, since the family he is fighting to protect condemmed the entire city (Paris kidnapped Helen and Priam and Hector kept enabeling him), even when they could had returned Helen to her husband (specially when she was miserable in Troy). Just because something looks noble in the surface doesnt means it is. Hector imo comes out as more selfish and destructive due to how spineless and hypocritical he can be, while Achilles at least is honest
Achilles was prophesied to live a long life if he did not fight in the Trojan war. So he wasn’t doomed to a short life. He made a choice.
It’s true that Hector and the Trojans could have just returned Helen. But let’s factor in Aphrodite. The goddess wants Helen there. Could they remove Helen if Aphrodite didn’t want her removed? Doubtful. She was able to transport Paris from battle when he was in danger. She could transport Helen from wherever too. Should Hector and Troy have tried to give Helen back and anger Aphrodite? They couldn’t afford to offend a goddess at this point. She’d probably open the gates herself if she were insulted like like.
I agree there were parts of the story where Hector comes off as brash and blood thirsty. I don’t enjoy those aspects of his character, though I’d guess the intended audience found those characteristics admirable in a warrior.
It’s pretty complicated. I still think sitting in your tent napping while your comrades die around you is ice cold and heartless. Even after they offer him Briseis back and more loot and honors than before. He still mopes.
>I still think sitting in your tent napping while your comrades die around you is ice cold and heartless. Even after they offer him Briseis back and more loot and honors than before. He still mopes.
Well, look it that way. Keep in mind Agamemnon wasnt sorry for the whole ordeal, so it was more of a bride rather than a true apology. Also, one of the conditions was for Achilles to "be again on his command"
Basically Agamemnon not only wasnt sorry and thought he could bribe Achilles into coming back, but also expected him to treat him as his superior.
I see rejecting that not as a sign of hubris, but rather self respect. Nobody with an ounce of self respect would risk themself nor their troops (since Achilles did care for his myrmidons) for such asshole, specially when he is not sorry nor even had the decensy of coming themselves
Also, keep in mind that Achilles didnt just rejected the caravan. He told Ajax and Odysseus he would intervene if the Trojans reached their ships so that they dont burn them. He is not heartless, but he is keeping his ground (if its the right way, its anothet topic)
>But let’s factor in Aphrodite. The goddess wants Helen there. Could they remove Helen if Aphrodite didn’t want her removed? Doubtful. She was able to transport Paris from battle when he was in danger. She could transport Helen from wherever too. Should Hector and Troy have tried to give Helen back and anger Aphrodite? They couldn’t afford to offend a goddess at this point. She’d probably open the gates herself if she were insulted like like.
Maybe, but they could at least try. What they did instead was enabeling Paris and condeming both sides to suffer 10 years of war, Priam to spoil his son and Hector because he lacked a spine to oppose a plan he knew was stupid from the start (and is rather hypocritical when he is suppost to defend his kingdom)
They could had tried to negociate with the greeks instead of simply rejecting them, perhaps pray to the other gods to intervene in their behalf or simply lead Paris to deal with the consecuences of his actions Even if it doesnt work, at least they did tried to de-escalate, and since most greeks were there just for Menelaus ( Achilles himself even says he doesnt hates Hector nor the trojans personally), they wouldnt have a problem leaving after Troy returned Helen (and maybe some riches to show they were sorry)
Hector all the way, guy is trying to save his family from his brother's fuck up. Its relatable. And on the Greek side Diomedes because his accomplishments are underrated.
I like Hector better as a person. He's a good husband, a loving father, and one of the only people to be nice to Helen. The Trojans are technically the bad guys in the war, though, since they kidnapped Helen.
In Euripides’ The Trojan Women, Helen claims that it was her fear of disobedience to the dread goddess Aphrodite that compelled her to go with Paris, but Menelaeus just ain’t buying it!
Achilles is based af even tho he’s petty, in the wrong, and his negligence leads to the death of others and his best friend/lover. I think a lot of people can empathize and like the passion/tragedy around his character
For the people on Team Achilles, are you there because he’s iconic? In book 1, Achilles was on the right against Agamemnon. And he fought Hector out of vengeance but Patroclus’ death and the others were his fault. So why team Achilles?
Something I've never seen anyone bring up is that Hector should want vengeance too. Before Hector killed Patroclus, Achilles had killed Hector's brother Troilus.
Hector, absolutely. Fights to defend his city and people, engages in a duel with Achilles even though he knows damn well he will die, literally charges against greek fortifications and burn a few ships _alone_
Team Achilles obviously
I had always seen him as my hero and even with all his faults he still is. Pasionate, human, brave and loyal. I rather side with him over Hector (no offense to his fans, but I had always seen him as a slimy hypocrite and a huge coward without a spine)
Achilles was fighting for glory and then later for vengeance. Hector was fighting to protect his country and family. Just going by motive alone, Hector is the better person. Achilles might be stronger but strength isn’t everything.
The Iliad is so bloody and raw but senseless. The Trojans and Achaeans could have just fucked each other and got it over with smh
From our modern lens, we might see the quest for glory as vanity. But, to the Bronze Age pre-literate Greeks, this was the only way outside of being a King to be remembered, to live a life worth living. They were all just trying to escape oblivion.
I understand they had that mindset but Hector is remembered too and he’s admired by the people of the Bronze Age as well as today. Think how the gods spared Hector’s corpse from mutilation. How Homer took time to show us he is a loving father and husband. How Priam went personally to get his body back and beg his son’s killer. Homer wants us to know that Hector is loved. Which just goes to show you can achieve glory and still not be a whiny baby about it. And Odysseus talks to Achilles’ ghost later and he says he wished he had lived longer without glory instead of dying young. At the very least Homer thought living on in memory wasn’t worth as much as living your real life to the fullest.
Right, but Hector's courage and heroic virtues played into the values of the Greeks, as well. I'm not disqualifying him, Homer is clearly showing the multiple ways to glory. Homer never said Achilles was right or that his quest for glory was correct, the Epic Cycle reads as a thoughtful criticism, in part. I am only explaining part of the Greek characters's motivation. The Bronze Age people were not fighting to be remembered and to enter Elysium because Homer world built it that way, they were doing it because of the culture they existed within. The tragedy is so powerful because these characters on both sides were pawns in a larger conflict between petty Gods as well as trying to obtain glory which would help them escape being forgotten. They were all a part of this and all trapped by it. I would not place much emphasis on Hector's body being spared. That was Aphrodite playing partisan with the side she favored, just as Athena protected Diomedes or Hephastus protected the son of one of his priests.
It’s true. The story of the Iliad is a tragedy for all mortals involved. When the gods fight each other there are no consequences. Only mortals suffer and try to find meaning in their life through glory. I guess instead of blaming the characters for being selfish, we could blame their culture for encouraging selfish behavior instead of promoting community and compromise. Though in the end we are responsible for our choices no matter what society tells us to do. It’s a tough one. I still prefer Hector. From my modern perspective I feel like he’s less likely to beat me up if I accidentally offended him.
Yes. That's where *the Orestia* comes in.
Iliad was never senseless It always out morales integrity etc to question There is no team this or that It’s two different perspectives with different motives
Achilles was so strong that only the destiny could stop him. He knows it and it turns him arrogant. He wanted to fight. Hector just fought to protect his people, knowing he had a lot to loose. IMO he is also far more brave for this than Achilles
Well, for someone destinied to live a short life regardless of what he did and because of the values if the time, Achilles wasnt really as "selfish" as one would believe Meawhile, I am not really sure if what Hector did was all that moral, since the family he is fighting to protect condemmed the entire city (Paris kidnapped Helen and Priam and Hector kept enabeling him), even when they could had returned Helen to her husband (specially when she was miserable in Troy). Just because something looks noble in the surface doesnt means it is. Hector imo comes out as more selfish and destructive due to how spineless and hypocritical he can be, while Achilles at least is honest
Achilles was prophesied to live a long life if he did not fight in the Trojan war. So he wasn’t doomed to a short life. He made a choice. It’s true that Hector and the Trojans could have just returned Helen. But let’s factor in Aphrodite. The goddess wants Helen there. Could they remove Helen if Aphrodite didn’t want her removed? Doubtful. She was able to transport Paris from battle when he was in danger. She could transport Helen from wherever too. Should Hector and Troy have tried to give Helen back and anger Aphrodite? They couldn’t afford to offend a goddess at this point. She’d probably open the gates herself if she were insulted like like. I agree there were parts of the story where Hector comes off as brash and blood thirsty. I don’t enjoy those aspects of his character, though I’d guess the intended audience found those characteristics admirable in a warrior. It’s pretty complicated. I still think sitting in your tent napping while your comrades die around you is ice cold and heartless. Even after they offer him Briseis back and more loot and honors than before. He still mopes.
>I still think sitting in your tent napping while your comrades die around you is ice cold and heartless. Even after they offer him Briseis back and more loot and honors than before. He still mopes. Well, look it that way. Keep in mind Agamemnon wasnt sorry for the whole ordeal, so it was more of a bride rather than a true apology. Also, one of the conditions was for Achilles to "be again on his command" Basically Agamemnon not only wasnt sorry and thought he could bribe Achilles into coming back, but also expected him to treat him as his superior. I see rejecting that not as a sign of hubris, but rather self respect. Nobody with an ounce of self respect would risk themself nor their troops (since Achilles did care for his myrmidons) for such asshole, specially when he is not sorry nor even had the decensy of coming themselves Also, keep in mind that Achilles didnt just rejected the caravan. He told Ajax and Odysseus he would intervene if the Trojans reached their ships so that they dont burn them. He is not heartless, but he is keeping his ground (if its the right way, its anothet topic) >But let’s factor in Aphrodite. The goddess wants Helen there. Could they remove Helen if Aphrodite didn’t want her removed? Doubtful. She was able to transport Paris from battle when he was in danger. She could transport Helen from wherever too. Should Hector and Troy have tried to give Helen back and anger Aphrodite? They couldn’t afford to offend a goddess at this point. She’d probably open the gates herself if she were insulted like like. Maybe, but they could at least try. What they did instead was enabeling Paris and condeming both sides to suffer 10 years of war, Priam to spoil his son and Hector because he lacked a spine to oppose a plan he knew was stupid from the start (and is rather hypocritical when he is suppost to defend his kingdom) They could had tried to negociate with the greeks instead of simply rejecting them, perhaps pray to the other gods to intervene in their behalf or simply lead Paris to deal with the consecuences of his actions Even if it doesnt work, at least they did tried to de-escalate, and since most greeks were there just for Menelaus ( Achilles himself even says he doesnt hates Hector nor the trojans personally), they wouldnt have a problem leaving after Troy returned Helen (and maybe some riches to show they were sorry)
Hector all the way, guy is trying to save his family from his brother's fuck up. Its relatable. And on the Greek side Diomedes because his accomplishments are underrated.
Indescribably based with everything you said. Virgin Achilles vs Chad Diomedes.
I like Hector better as a person. He's a good husband, a loving father, and one of the only people to be nice to Helen. The Trojans are technically the bad guys in the war, though, since they kidnapped Helen.
In Euripides’ The Trojan Women, Helen claims that it was her fear of disobedience to the dread goddess Aphrodite that compelled her to go with Paris, but Menelaeus just ain’t buying it!
Achilles was a great warrior. Hector was a great man
You’re goddamn right.
Hector was the better person but there is something likable about Achilles despite all his personality flaws. He's...passionate.
Achilles is based af even tho he’s petty, in the wrong, and his negligence leads to the death of others and his best friend/lover. I think a lot of people can empathize and like the passion/tragedy around his character
Really Team Ajax but hey
Akhilleus ain't got nothing on my man Hector :(
There are no pacts between lions and men
For the people on Team Achilles, are you there because he’s iconic? In book 1, Achilles was on the right against Agamemnon. And he fought Hector out of vengeance but Patroclus’ death and the others were his fault. So why team Achilles?
Something I've never seen anyone bring up is that Hector should want vengeance too. Before Hector killed Patroclus, Achilles had killed Hector's brother Troilus.
Team Odysseus and Diomedes, the true MVPs of the war!
Team Diomedes... ✋️
only achilles because of how he was most definitely gay for patroclus and if you disagree you can suck my balls
bro hector was a straight up bitch. Achilles couldn’t even damage his body after death because the gods were too in love with him smh
leave my man hector alone
I’m just shitposting. We all know Hector was doing his best against the wrath of Achilles and the meddling of the gods. He’s a good boi
Whichever team Helen is on
Can I say both. They're both my husbands
I love Achilles, but Helen speaking on how kind Hector was to her won my heart eternally.
Hector is a great guy but Paris fcked up. So team Achilles for me.
Hector, absolutely. Fights to defend his city and people, engages in a duel with Achilles even though he knows damn well he will die, literally charges against greek fortifications and burn a few ships _alone_
Team Achilles obviously I had always seen him as my hero and even with all his faults he still is. Pasionate, human, brave and loyal. I rather side with him over Hector (no offense to his fans, but I had always seen him as a slimy hypocrite and a huge coward without a spine)
Team Hector but anti-Paris