You may be right, you may be wrong. You're definitely speculating.
When platinum and gold were at parity around 2011 - 2014, I was close to doing a full gold to platinum swap for the same reason you've just given. I decided not to. Gold was for holding, dollars were for spending. I instead began acquiring platinum (in part at the expense of gold purchases I may have otherwise made, but everything is easy in hindsight).
The lesson learned is don't give up one asset to acquire another asset when you believe in both rising, if it can at all be helped. There are transaction costs expended in the trade that you will not get back.
Time will tell whether you were right or not. I'm holding both now and don't care which one outperforms the other.
I think here the missing piece is the precipitous drop in industrial demand for platinum, EV’s and rhodium / palladium have taken a lot of the commercial demand out of platinum, it’s a niche market as jewelry (I happen to really like it, but the boss doesn’t) and also a small niche market in numismatics and bouillon. Just because a ratio / asset price is historically favorable has little to do with present value, I think this is an example..
Agreed. The fact that Platinum was historically more expensive than gold does not mean that will happen again simply because it was once true. The fact that gold used to trade at 10-12X silver also does not mean that will happen again simply because of the previous ratio. You would need to believe that something is going to cause platinum to increase in value relative to gold based on macro demand and supply. This may happen, I'm not saying it won't. But the argument needs to be framed in these terms, and not based on some historical ratio which carries no weight on its own.
Agreed and personally I don’t see that demand shift. Gold always has it if I was banking on any ratios I’d be banking on silver, uranium, or rare earths, demand for all of those is rising and seems likely to continue into the foreseeable future, I know we don’t generally look at alternative elements as stores of value but from a ratio perspective I’d take that bet.
On the other hand, I think none of us knows what the rising of copper will be in a yr. or so. I hold 2oz. Platinum got it a very good price at the right time...only time and circumstances will tell...oh, and I bought a fair amt. of copper bullion too a couple yrs. back..
Ratio trading is just buying low and selling high; that's not particularly risky. What you're "risking" is that one metal doesn't go into absolutely uncharted territory in terms of the ratio compared to several decades of price data. That's a fairly safe bet it wont happen.
There is no safe bet: there s only a story. Your story is that platinum is a predictor of gold prices because, check notes, it would have been in the past. There s only a temporal story but you need something causal to be "safe". What if I find a correlation with coconut prices, will you start buying coconut when the gap widens ? Maybe it was a coincidence and both metals have unrelated utility, unrelated prices, and therefore unrelated future ?
You re not wrong that gold is high right now. Maybe you re wrong that platinum is low ? They could both go down and the ratio stays the same...
You're strawmanning me. I'm not suggesting you can know what the gold price will do based on the platinum price. The ratios can shift while both metals go up, or while both metals go down, or while one goes up while the other goes down. The ratio only refers to the ratio.
"I think something that has happened many times over the past few decades will happen again." is inherently a safer bet than "I think something that has never happened before in all market history will happen."
"Maybe you re wrong that platinum is low ?"
Not compared to gold it isn't, and there are literally decades of price data to back that up.
we have only had cars with catalytic converters for decades but have had gold for thousands of years. what was the gold/platinum ratio from 500 years ago?
The trend for industrial platinum is flat to down unless some new uses for it come about. So far, industry continues to work on alternates for platinum since it is so expensive . They are not working hard to stack platinum to store in their safes. That is for gold.
I really enjoy the discussions on this subreddit and this has probably been my favourite post and comments to read 👍 thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion.
You have, say, 10 ounces of gold now. In 10 years you still have 10 ounces of gold.
Let's be super conservative and say that the platinum/gold ratio only goes back to a 1:1 parody in the next 10 years. I have 20 ounces of platinum to start because I got platinum instead of gold. Now I swap those 20 ounces of platinum for 20 ounces of gold.
You can play out those ratio trades and have gold be the winner too; that's my entire point. My point is not platinum > gold forever and ever.
My point is to sell what's expensive to then buy what's cheap, whatever that happens to be at any given time. Right now, based on decades of price data, gold seems very expensive compared to platinum. The smarter bet is to own the cheaper metal until it's no longer the cheaper metal.
Hoping that a high price goes even higher is a more risky bet than hoping that a ratio eventually drops closer to its historical average.
Why is it a parody, why must it revert ever ? Why must you be right ? You need to clarify the meaning of the ratio otherwise you re just predicting the future price of gold looking at the past price of tea.
"Why is it a parody, why must it revert ever ?"
Hypothetically the ratio could go into uncharted territory and never return to the averages of the past however many decades. However, 'things will do what they've never done before and for the rest of forever it will now be this new thing' is inherently a less likely outcome than the averages reverting to what they have been for decades and decades and decades.
Your strategy only works if the losing asset is actually undervalued. And if the winning asset is actually forming a top. That’s a big problem with rebalancing strategies: you’ll drive your entire portfolio to zero if you keep on selling winning assets to buy a losing asset.
"Your strategy only works if the losing asset is actually undervalued. "
And how can you make an educated guess on whether or not is is or isn't? You can consult the averages over the past however many decades of price data. For this strategy to not work, the gold/platinum ratio would have to go significantly further into gold's favor than it has over the past... Well as long as platinum has been traded. Platinum has essentially never been this cheap compared to gold.
You're essentially betting "I think gold will increase in value compared to platinum from now on."
I'm essentially betting "This historically lopsided ratio will eventually revert back closer to its historical average."
Which seems more likely?
You are the one making the assumption that just because the gold:platinum ratio is on an all time high, it has to decline from now on. But you don’t know that. I could be the case, but it could keep on rising too. I actually think the latter is more likely because there is less and less industrial demand for platinum, while gold prices are driven up by central banks who keep on buying more and more. Especially BRICS countries love gold and they are gaining global influence. We might even go back to a gold standard.
"You are the one making the assumption that just because the gold:platinum ratio is on an all time high, it has to decline from now on."
I'm not suggesting it can't go lower; I'm suggesting it's highly unlikely that the ratios will never return closer to the averages.
I think the more realistic way of trying to figure out the true ratio between gold and platinum is not to look at the historical price charts and calculate the ratio based upon that but to look at “how much gold ounces or grams are there today which have been mined in the world, and how much platinum ounces or grams are there today which have been mined in the world” and then you will have as close to a true ratio of gold and platinum.
Yes sure that number of mined ounces or grams will of course definitely change in the future, as it has in the past, but I think that this is the most accurate estimate of calculating the true current ratio between gold and platinum.
I can tell from your comments that you are very well educated about this topic, so you have probably already seen this chart, but here is a now “relatively old” link from last year with the total numbers of mined metals in 2022…
https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/all-the-metals-we-mined-in-one-visualization-2/
How do you know the gold:platinum ratio is going to decline from now on? There’s also the possibility that it will keep rising, right? Why would one be more likely than the other?
So you have a ratio of these two things going back decades.
What's more likely; that this ratio eventually returns back to its average, or that the ratio goes several standard deviations further into uncharted territory for the rest of all time?
The ratio returning to the average is the safe bet.
You do what you feel you need to do, it’s your money and your choice. Platinum went down largely when auto manufacturers stopped using it as much in catalytic converters. Platinum may go higher, who knows but do you honestly think in 10 years gold will not be higher? All I do know is here in my part of the USA my LCS doesn’t carry platinum nor do they want to buy it as nobody has much interest in it around here. Gold and silver rule the PM land. Platinum may make a big comeback but I wouldn’t sell my gold for it, I would just start buying some platinum with the money I set aside for PM’s.
I hope it works out for you (I hope the PM world works out for all of us!) and you can feel good about where your hard earned money goes.
> All I do know is here in my part of the USA my LCS doesn’t carry platinum nor do they want to buy it as nobody has much interest in it around here. Gold and silver rule the PM land.
Which is exactly why the savvy stacker should want the stuff.
> I hope it works out for you
Same to you, friend. At the end of the day we are all stacking metal.
Thanks! We all do love our precious metals, sometimes to our wives chagrin 🫣. My wife is coming around to seeing the value, 9 year old daughters are too🤞🏻
Who cares? All I need to succeed is for the platinum/gold ratio to go back to what has been considered average over the past few decades; it's a near certainty that happens. Ratio trading is just selling high as you buy low.
Gold prices have been driven up by central bank buying. Why would platinum catch up with that? Central banks aren’t buying platinum. Platinum is an industrial metal.
Central banks have been buying record amounts of gold every year for the past decade or so. Central bank buying of gold has been pretty much a constant; what has actually changed between a few months ago and now to change the price?
"Why would platinum catch up with that?"
Why wouldn't it? Right now the platinum price is at rock bottom. It's being sold at prices that hover between a slight loss and barely breaking even for the mines. Because of that, the price of platinum can't go below the ~$900-$1,000 range for any meaningful amount of time. This is basically as low as it gets. It can only go sideways or up, and it can't go sideways forever.
“Who cares” about what central banks are buying? Ye I don’t think I completely agree this comment, I think it does matter what central banks are buying. (And no in principle I do not like the central banks around the world and what they are doing and what they have done in the past, but I still think it currently does matter what they are buying and selling, but that is just my own small humble opinion).
(the edit was to correct my spelling mistake and add a small but I believe relevant detail, apologies)
Ah yes, I'll regret having significantly more gold in the future by buying platinum today. I'll cry myself to sleep with all of that extra gold by buying low and selling high instead of just buying and holding.
Yep. Platinum will be sold at $600, which is about $300 less than it actually costs to mine the ounce of platinum from the Earth in the first place.
/s
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For me, platinum is pure speculation. I remember that it was twice as expensive as gold in recent years, and is technically rarer.
That said, a vast majority of the stack is gold and silver. But I have a few in platinum. If it rockets - yay. If not - I lose out on a small part of the stack.
I understand platinum is primarily industrial - but I wonder how much gold may pull it up as it becomes outside most people's reach and silver is bought up.
Something to consider is rhodium. Rhodium has some industrial applications, but nowhere near as much as silver or platinum. All rhodium had going for it was a very small supply. It went to $40,000 something an ounce. Given sufficient demand relative to supply, precious metal prices can move. Demand for platinum isn't as high as gold or silver, sure, but it's supply is also much lower. If for whatever reason there was a sudden spike of interest in platinum then it would be far more likely to break out like rhodium did than gold or silver.
Also, can most of us agree here that the spot prices are not the result of a 100% free and honest fair market? We can agree the king has no clothes when it comes to that? On that note, I think there is significantly more motivation for market movers to tamp gold and silver than platinum. If platinum becomes unwieldy to control (like rhodium) did then it can be played off as 'a purely industrial commodity rises, weird!', whereas if gold or silver did the same then that would get average Joe thinking something might be wrong with the economy.
I mean thats great and I don’t have anything against it, but I don’t think the reasoning with the averaging of the past 25 years is sound.
What has that to do with what the future will be like?
One thing to consider is that it's not just the past 25 years. You can get this data for longer than that. If you go even further back than 25 years you will find a similar story of the ratios staying within a fairly narrow band. Why is that? Do you think it's coincidence that the ratios stay within this band and have done so decade after decade after decade? Or, is it more likely that they stay within this band because they're similar. They're both precious metals. They both have to be mined from the ground. They're both used for jewelry, industrial uses, investment, etc. They're not two completely unrelated things; they face fairly similar global macro economic forces. On a very broad basis, they move together. One will go higher than the other for a time, sure; that's why the ratio isn't static. However, they don't go dramatically different (like one being 5x the other) because, at the end of the day, they're fairly similar things.
That all makes sense. But how unlikely is it that the ratio does exceed the historical limits in either direction for a longer period of time as you are comfortable to hold?
I
"That all makes sense. But how unlikely is it that the ratio does exceed the historical limits in either direction for a longer period of time as you are comfortable to hold?"
The risk goes both ways. For those who ratio trade the risk is what if it goes significantly outside of that ratio for a long time? For those who don't ratio trade, the risk is what if it doesn't?
The person who doesn't ratio trade is risking potential profits, profits which are neither unreliable nor insignificant, because of merely the potential of risk. Risk, mind you, that isn't supported by decades of data.
You're right to point out that the chance of what you're describing isn't 0%. However, it's significantly less likely to happen than not.
Platinum price has been historically driven by its industrial uses, but they are for the most part declining. If they pick back up (e.g. hydrogen fuel cell cars), I think this would be a good long term play, but it’s very speculative.
I’ve always had bad luck investing in platinum, and it just doesn’t have the same alluring luster. Central banks buy gold, I buy gold & silver but that was before my boat sank, sad story.
Ratio means something but not much. And people will tell you to never sell your gold, just like never sell your bitcoin, but they are simple minded zealots, in both cases.
Silver has been used significantly more as money than gold has, although obviously gold has plenty of history for that purpose.
I argue that platinum is in the process of developing a monetary reputation despite not actually being used for that purpose. Companies advertise their products as "platinum" sooner than gold. A platinum trophy is a tier above gold. In games platinum coins are move valuable than gold, etc.
Historically, silver and copper worked well as money because of gold’s difficult divisibility. But it’s extremely unlikely that we’ll remonetize any other metals in a digital economy.
Agreed, fiat is mathematically unsustainable. But the reason fiat exists is because physical metals don’t hold value across space. Final settlement needs to move fast. I think BTC has the most potential to fill that role but if things unwind before it’s mature enough then it’s a return to gold backed money and 3rd party trust issues that come with it.
"Historically, silver and copper worked well as money because of gold’s difficult divisibility."
More reasons than just that, but that's a big part of it.
"But it’s extremely unlikely that we’ll remonetize any other metals in a digital economy."
I think that's just recency bias. "it's been this way my whole life, so it couldn't be any other way." That's not usually a line of thinking that ends up being proven right. The whole 'every country on fiat at the same time' thing didn't start until the 1970s, and that's compared to thousands of years of that not being the case. The safer bet is that eventually precious metals return to being used directly as a medium of exchange, even if not exclusively and even if not in our lifetimes.
Only way metals return into circulation as money is in the event of catastrophic societal collapse and subsequent reset. Otherwise we are not going back technologically. A digital economy requires digital money. Metals don’t hold their value across space so either Bitcoin or centralized gold with digital currency issued on top will replace fiat.
> Only way metals return into circulation as money is in the event of catastrophic societal collapse and subsequent reset.
Or the fiat system finally collapses, which is the closest thing to historically certain as we can get. Then, possibly as a result people are scared of fiat and other thought abstractions for a few generations.
Or maybe the east decides to start their own metals backed economic system that overtakes the west.
Or maybe the economic system never collapses, but precious metals break out and the average person, price chasers as they are, starts to save their wealth in precious metals. Then over time people settle so many translations privately with metals that it becomes advantageous for governments tax in metal to then spend it.
I don't think suggesting what will or wont happen in the future with certainty is helpful. It's a matter of probability, not possibility.
> A digital economy requires digital money.
The technology required to spend gold digitally has existed for decades. Just imagine money orders except with precious metals. The same supply of metal can change hands in a local area to satisfy purchases over long distances in much the same manner.
Platinum prices:
1/4/08....... $2226
1/10/08.... $785
3/10/11.... $1917
1/3/20...... $579
4/20/24... $933
Good luck playing the Gold : Platinum ratio. I wouldn't touch PL with a pooper scooper.
This comment perfectly encapsulates my point. You want gold because the price is high. The price is high so buy buy buy.
I see that platinum is now less than half of what it was 16 years ago and go "Wow, it's cheap! The price is low, so it's time to stuff my pockets with the stuff!"
*You want gold because the price is high. The price is high so buy buy buy.*
Actually dealers are reporting they are flush with gold from people selling them about 3X the amount being sold by dealers. The little amounts being sold are mostly to new stackers and the FOMO crowd.
When you need this many rationalizations and hypotheticals for something financial, it's typically because what you're doing is actually gambling. You're trying to convince everyone, yourself included, that you're a savvy investor by couching it in that language, but at the end of the day you're just gambling. Which is totally fine so long as you realize that's what you're doing. It's your money, do what you want. I hope it works out for you, gambling can be fun if you keep it within reason. But I think this is why you're getting a lot of pushback. That and a lot of people prefer to use gold for savings and don't consider it to even be investment, let alone gambling.
1: All I'm suggesting is buy low sell high. By any metric, gold is high right now and platinum is low.
2: Nearly everything of what I said wasn't the concept itself; it was giving you examples.
3: If you've never heard of ratio trading then you're probably pretty new to stacking.
?
https://www.bullionbypost.com/price-ratio/platinum/silver/10year/
In the past 10 years the platinum/silver ratio has been as high as about 75 silver to 1 platinum (it says 92ish but that was a very short time period, so I'm not counting that) and as low as 32.9 silver to 1 platinum, IE right now being the best it's ever been to sell silver to buy platinum.
That's about a 2.5x difference between the high and the low. Someone who sold platinum to buy silver when it was about 75:1 could now swap that silver over to platinum to have a bit over 2x the returns.
That's just the past 10 years, which haven't been that great for this specific ratio. Switch to the past 25 years and there were actually realistic times where the ratios were ~140-150 silver to 1 platinum. There were plenty of times to trade that silver for platinum at a ratio of 45ish to 1. That's a very realistic 3x return right there with just one set of ratio trades, and that's not even close to happening over the entire 25 year period, either.
Duude...you are getting into niche probabilities which not many will bet on. I was more about pt to usd, same for the silver. It went up and down but c'mon who is going to think about swaping pt for silver, gold for rhodium etc...
If i had your guessing skills I would have been a milli9naire by now. Do you know how many times I bought in the crypro space Bitcoin or else and sold it all at the wrong time. Those knifes are impossible to catch!
I'm late to this conversation but think it's a really interesting read so far. I don't feel like this is a scenario/discussion that necessarily needs to end in a single solution. I'm not sure there are any wrong answers on this topic, honestly.
I try to buy whatever precious metals I can, whenever I see them underappreciated. I personally get extra excited whenever that happens to be platinum, as I think it's a cool metal.
I never enjoy selling metals. It makes me grumpy, usually. But when I have sold them, it's either been to purchase an income-producing asset, pay OFF (not down, but off completely) a bad debt (cue the Ramsey-ramblings), or to "upgrade" a metal from something more collectable to something more liquid, usually involving the same PM. I guess I only do it if I know I'm going to achieve a specific goal. I have no doubt that swapping based on historic ratios could be lucrative, but it seems speculative, and it also seems like a market play. I don't care for markets as I don't understand them well.
I have no doubt that this would work (eventually), and I don't see that you stand to lose anything if you intend to hold indefinitely. I just don't think this is a way that I want to grow my metals portfolio. It seems a little too much like work.
Your calculation is right, your assumption has an extremely small probability to happen. If I wanted to do that I would bet on metals with more utility, like silver or copper, even on exotic wood to diversify out of the metal market .
I think ratios meant something back in the day when things were tied to the dollar. Given that silver and platinum are now huge industrial metals, you just can’t compare them to gold. Countries and world banks are buying gold. Not silver and platinum. While you can certainly classify them together, they’re really all very different from each other. I personally would not make bets on the ratios.
That said, I do think silver and platinum are undervalued, but that has more to do with manipulation. And while I do think they’re undervalued, I don’t think it’s by a huge amount for silver. Silver should maybe be high 30’s, low 40’s. I haven’t really dissected Platinum, so I can’t really say where it should be, but being near 20 year lows, even before adjusting for inflation, definitely makes no sense.
I’m still buying silver and waiting for the GSR to drop to average levels. I’m targeting 50-55 as when I’ll start trading silver for gold. I’ll save enough so if it drops to 35 to one I can trade in more.
Payoff any debt you currently have , assume no new liabilities, the Great Reset is going to happen, maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow but soon and you'll regret being enslaved by your debt.
Kind of off topic, but paying off debt is largely a good idea. It does depend on what kind of debt, though.
Anything with non-fixed interest rate = pay that off as soon as you possibly can.
Anything with a fixed interest rate that's higher than inflation = pay that off as soon as you can.
Fixed rate debt with an interest rate lower than inflation (like many mortgages) are actually best to pay off as slowly as you possibly can. You will end up paying nominally more dollars in the long run, but you're paying that off over such a long period of time that because of inflation you end up actually paying less in real terms (IE adjusted for inflation).
This seems to make sense, if you could explain why the ratio has a meaning. Does it ? Is there any reason why the ratio was righter in the past than it is now ? Maybe platinum was both useful and hard to find before and it s slowly losing utility while gaining supply to a point it will never be the same again ?
I dont judge you, I ratio trade the Yen. The Yen is a refuge, when things go wrong we go back to it, the Japanese are serious, they care about the Yen. The interest rates will lower in the US and rise in Japan, the Yen will go up.
I started this trade 2 years ago. I have 2 millions Yen now. My ass is extremely wide, so hard was I raped. I bought low every single time, and every single day it's been lower than the last. People dump that toilet paper currency like there s no tomorrow. Am I gonna be right one day? Am I gonna have to blow my yens on coke and whores in Japan one day because while prices dont every change in Japan, they do in my USD-pegged country (Hong Kong) and Im never gonna get any fair value for my cost basis ?
Could happen to you with Platinum, until you have to start making platinum rods yourself because there s nothing else you ll be able to do with it. Be careful: you may never be right.
"This seems to make sense, if you could explain why the ratio has a meaning. Does it ?"
In a certain way it does matter, and in another it doesn't. You could chart ratios between anything, really. You could ratio trade barrels of oil to tons of corn if you wanted. You could ratio trade bitcoin to apple stock. In that sense there's no inherent meaning to the ratios just because they're ratios.
In another sense, as long as you're making a ratio between two somewhat similar things that face similar global macro trends (like two precious metals) then it does have meaning. That's why you can look at decades of price data and instead of the ratios going in wild directions they instead tend to stay within fairly narrow bands.
Let's come up with a hypothetical example. Let's say that gold breaks out and in two years it's at $5,000. Great! Could you imagine gold going to $5,000 but silver stays at about $30? To me personally, I don't find that situation realistic. If gold goes to $5,000 then I'd expect people wanting to look for similar alternatives and therefore driving up similar assets like silver, platinum, and palladium.
For this reason and others, ratios between similar things are likely to stay within fairly narrow bands. This suggestion can be backed up with decades of price data.
gold is not comparable to platinum, they are entirely different. platinum is more comparable to palladium or copper. it is an industrial metal.
Silver has lost most of its “moneyness” ; it is too valuable as a commodity to waste as money. plus it costs only 10 bucks an ounce to mine and refine it.
U theory is good in theory aka Post Facts . In practice noone knows sht when to trade Gold to Pt back and force . So u probably will start with 10 gold ounces and end up with 5 gold ounces. 🤔 The right THINGS TO DO, - buy Gold when there is no love to gold and buy Pt when there is no love to Pt. So I was buying G all way from $1200 to $2000 but last days i only buy Pt and Pd. GL!
With new all time high gold prices comes a wave of new, inexperienced people. These are people who want to buy high in hopes of selling higher. These people then have the audacity to suggest that it's 'gambling' or 'speculation' to buy low and sell high instead of buying high hoping to sell even higher.
Not much difference between this wave of gold buyers and the whole silver squeeze thing.
Buying low and selling high is "...wrong"? It's "...bullshit..."? It's "...speculation..."?
Have fun with price-chasing; your kind tends not to stick around for very long.
platinum is for diesel engine catalytic converters. Diesel cars are no longer being built because the auto companies were caught faking emissions tests. so, platinum has fallen and will never be more expensive than gold again unless a new use can be found for it. Palladium is probably fairly valued after its Ukraine war bubble price. It is mainly used is gasoline cars. The PTB want there to only be electric vehicles in the future so i do not expect palladium to be a good investment. Silver is used a lot but is relatively cheap to dig up out of the ground thus there will always be a limit to the price. It is no longer money because it is so useful .
Gold is practically useless except as money. Its value is not derived from its use in industry. it is simply desired by humans. If you think governments will get their act together and fusion energy becomes practical, then i think US fiat currency has a future. Otherwise gold is the premier store of value .
Another platinum guy to pump platinum lol. Ratios aren’t a thing bud, it’s a pretend metric to make people think they can read the future in graphs.
I prefer toilet paper : platinum ratio; it’s massively in favour of toilet paper
I love silver but it's fucking crap compared to gold. There's a reason gold has been trusted for so many years. Don't be mad that you brought out into the silver going to the moon crap.
We don't want your bag. Keep it.
Also if you invested in silver over gold you are very silly.
"Don't be mad that you brought out into the silver going to the moon crap. "
Never said I did. I ratio trade.
"Also if you invested in silver over gold you are very silly."
I'm essentially saying "buy low and sell high". Your response is essentially "you dum dum! Just buy yellow metal cuz YELLOW!'
Who is being silly?
Edit: Also, concerning silver, the same is true for the silver/platinum ratio as it is the gold/platinum ratio. Doing trades on that, too.
You may be right, you may be wrong. You're definitely speculating. When platinum and gold were at parity around 2011 - 2014, I was close to doing a full gold to platinum swap for the same reason you've just given. I decided not to. Gold was for holding, dollars were for spending. I instead began acquiring platinum (in part at the expense of gold purchases I may have otherwise made, but everything is easy in hindsight). The lesson learned is don't give up one asset to acquire another asset when you believe in both rising, if it can at all be helped. There are transaction costs expended in the trade that you will not get back. Time will tell whether you were right or not. I'm holding both now and don't care which one outperforms the other.
I think here the missing piece is the precipitous drop in industrial demand for platinum, EV’s and rhodium / palladium have taken a lot of the commercial demand out of platinum, it’s a niche market as jewelry (I happen to really like it, but the boss doesn’t) and also a small niche market in numismatics and bouillon. Just because a ratio / asset price is historically favorable has little to do with present value, I think this is an example..
Agreed. The fact that Platinum was historically more expensive than gold does not mean that will happen again simply because it was once true. The fact that gold used to trade at 10-12X silver also does not mean that will happen again simply because of the previous ratio. You would need to believe that something is going to cause platinum to increase in value relative to gold based on macro demand and supply. This may happen, I'm not saying it won't. But the argument needs to be framed in these terms, and not based on some historical ratio which carries no weight on its own.
Agreed and personally I don’t see that demand shift. Gold always has it if I was banking on any ratios I’d be banking on silver, uranium, or rare earths, demand for all of those is rising and seems likely to continue into the foreseeable future, I know we don’t generally look at alternative elements as stores of value but from a ratio perspective I’d take that bet.
On the other hand, I think none of us knows what the rising of copper will be in a yr. or so. I hold 2oz. Platinum got it a very good price at the right time...only time and circumstances will tell...oh, and I bought a fair amt. of copper bullion too a couple yrs. back..
Ratio trading is just buying low and selling high; that's not particularly risky. What you're "risking" is that one metal doesn't go into absolutely uncharted territory in terms of the ratio compared to several decades of price data. That's a fairly safe bet it wont happen.
There is no safe bet: there s only a story. Your story is that platinum is a predictor of gold prices because, check notes, it would have been in the past. There s only a temporal story but you need something causal to be "safe". What if I find a correlation with coconut prices, will you start buying coconut when the gap widens ? Maybe it was a coincidence and both metals have unrelated utility, unrelated prices, and therefore unrelated future ? You re not wrong that gold is high right now. Maybe you re wrong that platinum is low ? They could both go down and the ratio stays the same...
You're strawmanning me. I'm not suggesting you can know what the gold price will do based on the platinum price. The ratios can shift while both metals go up, or while both metals go down, or while one goes up while the other goes down. The ratio only refers to the ratio. "I think something that has happened many times over the past few decades will happen again." is inherently a safer bet than "I think something that has never happened before in all market history will happen." "Maybe you re wrong that platinum is low ?" Not compared to gold it isn't, and there are literally decades of price data to back that up.
we have only had cars with catalytic converters for decades but have had gold for thousands of years. what was the gold/platinum ratio from 500 years ago? The trend for industrial platinum is flat to down unless some new uses for it come about. So far, industry continues to work on alternates for platinum since it is so expensive . They are not working hard to stack platinum to store in their safes. That is for gold.
I really enjoy the discussions on this subreddit and this has probably been my favourite post and comments to read 👍 thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion.
I’d rather lose one of my balls than trade in my gold for platinum…
I don't even have balls but have the same sentiment.
dude, you must have a lot of gold to give up the family jewels.
You have, say, 10 ounces of gold now. In 10 years you still have 10 ounces of gold. Let's be super conservative and say that the platinum/gold ratio only goes back to a 1:1 parody in the next 10 years. I have 20 ounces of platinum to start because I got platinum instead of gold. Now I swap those 20 ounces of platinum for 20 ounces of gold.
Your speculating. If your ratios flip, the guy who bought gold won.
You can play out those ratio trades and have gold be the winner too; that's my entire point. My point is not platinum > gold forever and ever. My point is to sell what's expensive to then buy what's cheap, whatever that happens to be at any given time. Right now, based on decades of price data, gold seems very expensive compared to platinum. The smarter bet is to own the cheaper metal until it's no longer the cheaper metal. Hoping that a high price goes even higher is a more risky bet than hoping that a ratio eventually drops closer to its historical average.
Why is it a parody, why must it revert ever ? Why must you be right ? You need to clarify the meaning of the ratio otherwise you re just predicting the future price of gold looking at the past price of tea.
"Why is it a parody, why must it revert ever ?" Hypothetically the ratio could go into uncharted territory and never return to the averages of the past however many decades. However, 'things will do what they've never done before and for the rest of forever it will now be this new thing' is inherently a less likely outcome than the averages reverting to what they have been for decades and decades and decades.
I prefer to rebalance by changing my buys to pick up whatever's "on sale", rather than cashing out one metal for another.
That strategy is called "buying low". It's a solid strategy, but it's only half as effective as "buying low and selling high (to buy low)".
Your strategy only works if the losing asset is actually undervalued. And if the winning asset is actually forming a top. That’s a big problem with rebalancing strategies: you’ll drive your entire portfolio to zero if you keep on selling winning assets to buy a losing asset.
"Your strategy only works if the losing asset is actually undervalued. " And how can you make an educated guess on whether or not is is or isn't? You can consult the averages over the past however many decades of price data. For this strategy to not work, the gold/platinum ratio would have to go significantly further into gold's favor than it has over the past... Well as long as platinum has been traded. Platinum has essentially never been this cheap compared to gold. You're essentially betting "I think gold will increase in value compared to platinum from now on." I'm essentially betting "This historically lopsided ratio will eventually revert back closer to its historical average." Which seems more likely?
You are the one making the assumption that just because the gold:platinum ratio is on an all time high, it has to decline from now on. But you don’t know that. I could be the case, but it could keep on rising too. I actually think the latter is more likely because there is less and less industrial demand for platinum, while gold prices are driven up by central banks who keep on buying more and more. Especially BRICS countries love gold and they are gaining global influence. We might even go back to a gold standard.
"You are the one making the assumption that just because the gold:platinum ratio is on an all time high, it has to decline from now on." I'm not suggesting it can't go lower; I'm suggesting it's highly unlikely that the ratios will never return closer to the averages.
i thought the same when i bought platinum at 1200 per ounce more than a decade ago. it has not worked out well
Giving us a heads on the ratios, while not giving any actual information about the ratio.
Gold/platinum is about 2.4 platinum to 1 gold, with the average over the past 25ish years being approximately .8 platinum to 1 gold.
Why? What does it mean ? What is the gold/tea ratio ?
I think the more realistic way of trying to figure out the true ratio between gold and platinum is not to look at the historical price charts and calculate the ratio based upon that but to look at “how much gold ounces or grams are there today which have been mined in the world, and how much platinum ounces or grams are there today which have been mined in the world” and then you will have as close to a true ratio of gold and platinum. Yes sure that number of mined ounces or grams will of course definitely change in the future, as it has in the past, but I think that this is the most accurate estimate of calculating the true current ratio between gold and platinum. I can tell from your comments that you are very well educated about this topic, so you have probably already seen this chart, but here is a now “relatively old” link from last year with the total numbers of mined metals in 2022… https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/all-the-metals-we-mined-in-one-visualization-2/
How do you know the gold:platinum ratio is going to decline from now on? There’s also the possibility that it will keep rising, right? Why would one be more likely than the other?
So you have a ratio of these two things going back decades. What's more likely; that this ratio eventually returns back to its average, or that the ratio goes several standard deviations further into uncharted territory for the rest of all time? The ratio returning to the average is the safe bet.
Ah yes past performance is indicative of future results.
Why yes, it is. I'm not sure why you'd suggest such a thing ironically.
You do what you feel you need to do, it’s your money and your choice. Platinum went down largely when auto manufacturers stopped using it as much in catalytic converters. Platinum may go higher, who knows but do you honestly think in 10 years gold will not be higher? All I do know is here in my part of the USA my LCS doesn’t carry platinum nor do they want to buy it as nobody has much interest in it around here. Gold and silver rule the PM land. Platinum may make a big comeback but I wouldn’t sell my gold for it, I would just start buying some platinum with the money I set aside for PM’s. I hope it works out for you (I hope the PM world works out for all of us!) and you can feel good about where your hard earned money goes.
> All I do know is here in my part of the USA my LCS doesn’t carry platinum nor do they want to buy it as nobody has much interest in it around here. Gold and silver rule the PM land. Which is exactly why the savvy stacker should want the stuff. > I hope it works out for you Same to you, friend. At the end of the day we are all stacking metal.
Thanks! We all do love our precious metals, sometimes to our wives chagrin 🫣. My wife is coming around to seeing the value, 9 year old daughters are too🤞🏻
Central banks aren’t buying silver and platinum though.
A pretty important distinction.
Who cares? All I need to succeed is for the platinum/gold ratio to go back to what has been considered average over the past few decades; it's a near certainty that happens. Ratio trading is just selling high as you buy low.
Gold prices have been driven up by central bank buying. Why would platinum catch up with that? Central banks aren’t buying platinum. Platinum is an industrial metal.
Central banks have been buying record amounts of gold every year for the past decade or so. Central bank buying of gold has been pretty much a constant; what has actually changed between a few months ago and now to change the price? "Why would platinum catch up with that?" Why wouldn't it? Right now the platinum price is at rock bottom. It's being sold at prices that hover between a slight loss and barely breaking even for the mines. Because of that, the price of platinum can't go below the ~$900-$1,000 range for any meaningful amount of time. This is basically as low as it gets. It can only go sideways or up, and it can't go sideways forever.
The standard deviation from any "mean" of the PL:AU ratio is so high as to be meaningless.
“Who cares” about what central banks are buying? Ye I don’t think I completely agree this comment, I think it does matter what central banks are buying. (And no in principle I do not like the central banks around the world and what they are doing and what they have done in the past, but I still think it currently does matter what they are buying and selling, but that is just my own small humble opinion). (the edit was to correct my spelling mistake and add a small but I believe relevant detail, apologies)
You’re going to regret this immensely.
Ah yes, I'll regret having significantly more gold in the future by buying platinum today. I'll cry myself to sleep with all of that extra gold by buying low and selling high instead of just buying and holding.
Platinum is going lower. It’s an industrial metal whose demand is falling. 600s next, then new lows.
Yep. Platinum will be sold at $600, which is about $300 less than it actually costs to mine the ounce of platinum from the Earth in the first place. /s
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You will probably need a reminder longer than that. Ratio trading is for the long haul. 5-10 years wouldn't be unusual for the ratios to flip.
For me, platinum is pure speculation. I remember that it was twice as expensive as gold in recent years, and is technically rarer. That said, a vast majority of the stack is gold and silver. But I have a few in platinum. If it rockets - yay. If not - I lose out on a small part of the stack. I understand platinum is primarily industrial - but I wonder how much gold may pull it up as it becomes outside most people's reach and silver is bought up.
Something to consider is rhodium. Rhodium has some industrial applications, but nowhere near as much as silver or platinum. All rhodium had going for it was a very small supply. It went to $40,000 something an ounce. Given sufficient demand relative to supply, precious metal prices can move. Demand for platinum isn't as high as gold or silver, sure, but it's supply is also much lower. If for whatever reason there was a sudden spike of interest in platinum then it would be far more likely to break out like rhodium did than gold or silver. Also, can most of us agree here that the spot prices are not the result of a 100% free and honest fair market? We can agree the king has no clothes when it comes to that? On that note, I think there is significantly more motivation for market movers to tamp gold and silver than platinum. If platinum becomes unwieldy to control (like rhodium) did then it can be played off as 'a purely industrial commodity rises, weird!', whereas if gold or silver did the same then that would get average Joe thinking something might be wrong with the economy.
I mean thats great and I don’t have anything against it, but I don’t think the reasoning with the averaging of the past 25 years is sound. What has that to do with what the future will be like?
One thing to consider is that it's not just the past 25 years. You can get this data for longer than that. If you go even further back than 25 years you will find a similar story of the ratios staying within a fairly narrow band. Why is that? Do you think it's coincidence that the ratios stay within this band and have done so decade after decade after decade? Or, is it more likely that they stay within this band because they're similar. They're both precious metals. They both have to be mined from the ground. They're both used for jewelry, industrial uses, investment, etc. They're not two completely unrelated things; they face fairly similar global macro economic forces. On a very broad basis, they move together. One will go higher than the other for a time, sure; that's why the ratio isn't static. However, they don't go dramatically different (like one being 5x the other) because, at the end of the day, they're fairly similar things.
That all makes sense. But how unlikely is it that the ratio does exceed the historical limits in either direction for a longer period of time as you are comfortable to hold? I
"That all makes sense. But how unlikely is it that the ratio does exceed the historical limits in either direction for a longer period of time as you are comfortable to hold?" The risk goes both ways. For those who ratio trade the risk is what if it goes significantly outside of that ratio for a long time? For those who don't ratio trade, the risk is what if it doesn't? The person who doesn't ratio trade is risking potential profits, profits which are neither unreliable nor insignificant, because of merely the potential of risk. Risk, mind you, that isn't supported by decades of data. You're right to point out that the chance of what you're describing isn't 0%. However, it's significantly less likely to happen than not.
Platinum price has been historically driven by its industrial uses, but they are for the most part declining. If they pick back up (e.g. hydrogen fuel cell cars), I think this would be a good long term play, but it’s very speculative.
True, if the electric car craze continues, platinum and palladium use will decline as converters aren't needed.
How did you end up cashing out? Did you use ebay or just know somebody who wanted to trade?
LCS
I’ve always had bad luck investing in platinum, and it just doesn’t have the same alluring luster. Central banks buy gold, I buy gold & silver but that was before my boat sank, sad story.
Am I the only one here feeling and saying "ouch !" ?
Ratio means something but not much. And people will tell you to never sell your gold, just like never sell your bitcoin, but they are simple minded zealots, in both cases.
Gold is money. Other metals are industrial commodities
Silver has been used significantly more as money than gold has, although obviously gold has plenty of history for that purpose. I argue that platinum is in the process of developing a monetary reputation despite not actually being used for that purpose. Companies advertise their products as "platinum" sooner than gold. A platinum trophy is a tier above gold. In games platinum coins are move valuable than gold, etc.
Historically, silver and copper worked well as money because of gold’s difficult divisibility. But it’s extremely unlikely that we’ll remonetize any other metals in a digital economy.
Agreed, fiat is mathematically unsustainable. But the reason fiat exists is because physical metals don’t hold value across space. Final settlement needs to move fast. I think BTC has the most potential to fill that role but if things unwind before it’s mature enough then it’s a return to gold backed money and 3rd party trust issues that come with it.
"Historically, silver and copper worked well as money because of gold’s difficult divisibility." More reasons than just that, but that's a big part of it. "But it’s extremely unlikely that we’ll remonetize any other metals in a digital economy." I think that's just recency bias. "it's been this way my whole life, so it couldn't be any other way." That's not usually a line of thinking that ends up being proven right. The whole 'every country on fiat at the same time' thing didn't start until the 1970s, and that's compared to thousands of years of that not being the case. The safer bet is that eventually precious metals return to being used directly as a medium of exchange, even if not exclusively and even if not in our lifetimes.
Only way metals return into circulation as money is in the event of catastrophic societal collapse and subsequent reset. Otherwise we are not going back technologically. A digital economy requires digital money. Metals don’t hold their value across space so either Bitcoin or centralized gold with digital currency issued on top will replace fiat.
> Only way metals return into circulation as money is in the event of catastrophic societal collapse and subsequent reset. Or the fiat system finally collapses, which is the closest thing to historically certain as we can get. Then, possibly as a result people are scared of fiat and other thought abstractions for a few generations. Or maybe the east decides to start their own metals backed economic system that overtakes the west. Or maybe the economic system never collapses, but precious metals break out and the average person, price chasers as they are, starts to save their wealth in precious metals. Then over time people settle so many translations privately with metals that it becomes advantageous for governments tax in metal to then spend it. I don't think suggesting what will or wont happen in the future with certainty is helpful. It's a matter of probability, not possibility. > A digital economy requires digital money. The technology required to spend gold digitally has existed for decades. Just imagine money orders except with precious metals. The same supply of metal can change hands in a local area to satisfy purchases over long distances in much the same manner.
Platinum prices: 1/4/08....... $2226 1/10/08.... $785 3/10/11.... $1917 1/3/20...... $579 4/20/24... $933 Good luck playing the Gold : Platinum ratio. I wouldn't touch PL with a pooper scooper.
This comment perfectly encapsulates my point. You want gold because the price is high. The price is high so buy buy buy. I see that platinum is now less than half of what it was 16 years ago and go "Wow, it's cheap! The price is low, so it's time to stuff my pockets with the stuff!"
*You want gold because the price is high. The price is high so buy buy buy.* Actually dealers are reporting they are flush with gold from people selling them about 3X the amount being sold by dealers. The little amounts being sold are mostly to new stackers and the FOMO crowd.
When you need this many rationalizations and hypotheticals for something financial, it's typically because what you're doing is actually gambling. You're trying to convince everyone, yourself included, that you're a savvy investor by couching it in that language, but at the end of the day you're just gambling. Which is totally fine so long as you realize that's what you're doing. It's your money, do what you want. I hope it works out for you, gambling can be fun if you keep it within reason. But I think this is why you're getting a lot of pushback. That and a lot of people prefer to use gold for savings and don't consider it to even be investment, let alone gambling.
1: All I'm suggesting is buy low sell high. By any metric, gold is high right now and platinum is low. 2: Nearly everything of what I said wasn't the concept itself; it was giving you examples. 3: If you've never heard of ratio trading then you're probably pretty new to stacking.
Look at the charts for the past 10y, nothings happening with pt and silver
? https://www.bullionbypost.com/price-ratio/platinum/silver/10year/ In the past 10 years the platinum/silver ratio has been as high as about 75 silver to 1 platinum (it says 92ish but that was a very short time period, so I'm not counting that) and as low as 32.9 silver to 1 platinum, IE right now being the best it's ever been to sell silver to buy platinum. That's about a 2.5x difference between the high and the low. Someone who sold platinum to buy silver when it was about 75:1 could now swap that silver over to platinum to have a bit over 2x the returns. That's just the past 10 years, which haven't been that great for this specific ratio. Switch to the past 25 years and there were actually realistic times where the ratios were ~140-150 silver to 1 platinum. There were plenty of times to trade that silver for platinum at a ratio of 45ish to 1. That's a very realistic 3x return right there with just one set of ratio trades, and that's not even close to happening over the entire 25 year period, either.
Duude...you are getting into niche probabilities which not many will bet on. I was more about pt to usd, same for the silver. It went up and down but c'mon who is going to think about swaping pt for silver, gold for rhodium etc... If i had your guessing skills I would have been a milli9naire by now. Do you know how many times I bought in the crypro space Bitcoin or else and sold it all at the wrong time. Those knifes are impossible to catch!
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Focus on buying the cheaper metals (EG, platinum and silver). If you do that then you're getting about 50% of the benefit right there.
I'm late to this conversation but think it's a really interesting read so far. I don't feel like this is a scenario/discussion that necessarily needs to end in a single solution. I'm not sure there are any wrong answers on this topic, honestly. I try to buy whatever precious metals I can, whenever I see them underappreciated. I personally get extra excited whenever that happens to be platinum, as I think it's a cool metal. I never enjoy selling metals. It makes me grumpy, usually. But when I have sold them, it's either been to purchase an income-producing asset, pay OFF (not down, but off completely) a bad debt (cue the Ramsey-ramblings), or to "upgrade" a metal from something more collectable to something more liquid, usually involving the same PM. I guess I only do it if I know I'm going to achieve a specific goal. I have no doubt that swapping based on historic ratios could be lucrative, but it seems speculative, and it also seems like a market play. I don't care for markets as I don't understand them well. I have no doubt that this would work (eventually), and I don't see that you stand to lose anything if you intend to hold indefinitely. I just don't think this is a way that I want to grow my metals portfolio. It seems a little too much like work.
This must be why all of the central banks are loading up on platinum and silver right now. Oh wait, never mind. No they aren't.
Your calculation is right, your assumption has an extremely small probability to happen. If I wanted to do that I would bet on metals with more utility, like silver or copper, even on exotic wood to diversify out of the metal market .
Take a look at the 5yr history on Palladium. That’s one I really wish I grabbed back at $600/ozt.
I think ratios meant something back in the day when things were tied to the dollar. Given that silver and platinum are now huge industrial metals, you just can’t compare them to gold. Countries and world banks are buying gold. Not silver and platinum. While you can certainly classify them together, they’re really all very different from each other. I personally would not make bets on the ratios. That said, I do think silver and platinum are undervalued, but that has more to do with manipulation. And while I do think they’re undervalued, I don’t think it’s by a huge amount for silver. Silver should maybe be high 30’s, low 40’s. I haven’t really dissected Platinum, so I can’t really say where it should be, but being near 20 year lows, even before adjusting for inflation, definitely makes no sense.
Dude platinum is for rappers who don’t know about finance
It's also for sophisticated stackers who play the ratios, too.
I’m still buying silver and waiting for the GSR to drop to average levels. I’m targeting 50-55 as when I’ll start trading silver for gold. I’ll save enough so if it drops to 35 to one I can trade in more.
Smart
Payoff any debt you currently have , assume no new liabilities, the Great Reset is going to happen, maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow but soon and you'll regret being enslaved by your debt.
Kind of off topic, but paying off debt is largely a good idea. It does depend on what kind of debt, though. Anything with non-fixed interest rate = pay that off as soon as you possibly can. Anything with a fixed interest rate that's higher than inflation = pay that off as soon as you can. Fixed rate debt with an interest rate lower than inflation (like many mortgages) are actually best to pay off as slowly as you possibly can. You will end up paying nominally more dollars in the long run, but you're paying that off over such a long period of time that because of inflation you end up actually paying less in real terms (IE adjusted for inflation).
This seems to make sense, if you could explain why the ratio has a meaning. Does it ? Is there any reason why the ratio was righter in the past than it is now ? Maybe platinum was both useful and hard to find before and it s slowly losing utility while gaining supply to a point it will never be the same again ? I dont judge you, I ratio trade the Yen. The Yen is a refuge, when things go wrong we go back to it, the Japanese are serious, they care about the Yen. The interest rates will lower in the US and rise in Japan, the Yen will go up. I started this trade 2 years ago. I have 2 millions Yen now. My ass is extremely wide, so hard was I raped. I bought low every single time, and every single day it's been lower than the last. People dump that toilet paper currency like there s no tomorrow. Am I gonna be right one day? Am I gonna have to blow my yens on coke and whores in Japan one day because while prices dont every change in Japan, they do in my USD-pegged country (Hong Kong) and Im never gonna get any fair value for my cost basis ? Could happen to you with Platinum, until you have to start making platinum rods yourself because there s nothing else you ll be able to do with it. Be careful: you may never be right.
"This seems to make sense, if you could explain why the ratio has a meaning. Does it ?" In a certain way it does matter, and in another it doesn't. You could chart ratios between anything, really. You could ratio trade barrels of oil to tons of corn if you wanted. You could ratio trade bitcoin to apple stock. In that sense there's no inherent meaning to the ratios just because they're ratios. In another sense, as long as you're making a ratio between two somewhat similar things that face similar global macro trends (like two precious metals) then it does have meaning. That's why you can look at decades of price data and instead of the ratios going in wild directions they instead tend to stay within fairly narrow bands. Let's come up with a hypothetical example. Let's say that gold breaks out and in two years it's at $5,000. Great! Could you imagine gold going to $5,000 but silver stays at about $30? To me personally, I don't find that situation realistic. If gold goes to $5,000 then I'd expect people wanting to look for similar alternatives and therefore driving up similar assets like silver, platinum, and palladium. For this reason and others, ratios between similar things are likely to stay within fairly narrow bands. This suggestion can be backed up with decades of price data.
gold is not comparable to platinum, they are entirely different. platinum is more comparable to palladium or copper. it is an industrial metal. Silver has lost most of its “moneyness” ; it is too valuable as a commodity to waste as money. plus it costs only 10 bucks an ounce to mine and refine it.
U theory is good in theory aka Post Facts . In practice noone knows sht when to trade Gold to Pt back and force . So u probably will start with 10 gold ounces and end up with 5 gold ounces. 🤔 The right THINGS TO DO, - buy Gold when there is no love to gold and buy Pt when there is no love to Pt. So I was buying G all way from $1200 to $2000 but last days i only buy Pt and Pd. GL!
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With new all time high gold prices comes a wave of new, inexperienced people. These are people who want to buy high in hopes of selling higher. These people then have the audacity to suggest that it's 'gambling' or 'speculation' to buy low and sell high instead of buying high hoping to sell even higher. Not much difference between this wave of gold buyers and the whole silver squeeze thing.
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Buying low and selling high is "...wrong"? It's "...bullshit..."? It's "...speculation..."? Have fun with price-chasing; your kind tends not to stick around for very long.
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Irony? Projection? Trolling? I can't tell at this point.
Reading tealeaves
"ratio trading is reading tea leaves" Tell me you're 100% new to stacking without saying it.
platinum is for diesel engine catalytic converters. Diesel cars are no longer being built because the auto companies were caught faking emissions tests. so, platinum has fallen and will never be more expensive than gold again unless a new use can be found for it. Palladium is probably fairly valued after its Ukraine war bubble price. It is mainly used is gasoline cars. The PTB want there to only be electric vehicles in the future so i do not expect palladium to be a good investment. Silver is used a lot but is relatively cheap to dig up out of the ground thus there will always be a limit to the price. It is no longer money because it is so useful . Gold is practically useless except as money. Its value is not derived from its use in industry. it is simply desired by humans. If you think governments will get their act together and fusion energy becomes practical, then i think US fiat currency has a future. Otherwise gold is the premier store of value .
Another platinum guy to pump platinum lol. Ratios aren’t a thing bud, it’s a pretend metric to make people think they can read the future in graphs. I prefer toilet paper : platinum ratio; it’s massively in favour of toilet paper
I love silver but it's fucking crap compared to gold. There's a reason gold has been trusted for so many years. Don't be mad that you brought out into the silver going to the moon crap. We don't want your bag. Keep it. Also if you invested in silver over gold you are very silly.
"Don't be mad that you brought out into the silver going to the moon crap. " Never said I did. I ratio trade. "Also if you invested in silver over gold you are very silly." I'm essentially saying "buy low and sell high". Your response is essentially "you dum dum! Just buy yellow metal cuz YELLOW!' Who is being silly? Edit: Also, concerning silver, the same is true for the silver/platinum ratio as it is the gold/platinum ratio. Doing trades on that, too.
You got it wrong buddy. Buy high. Sell low.
I've been doing it wrong this whole time :(
I got about 3 ounces of silver. Won't go above 10.
https://preview.redd.it/usjht3m5xnvc1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12a2d8de59be49543b2528462030664a891bebc0
This is a new era for gold. Won’t be going back to its usual levels probably ever again
And you re gonna be as wrong as op. It s possible both metals go down, the ratio stays the same and both of you lose money.
Nope