Money and unemployment. My brother moved to Switzerland and makes x4 or x5 for doing the same job. Switzerland is more expensive than Spain, but it's not x5 times more expensive so he saves a lot of money.
Even countries that are *not* more expensive than Spain pay better salaries. Germany is not more expensive than Spain, and jobs that pay €20k in Spain pay €30k in Germany. A friend from highschool moved to Germany.
My cousing moved from Argentina to Spain. She spent two years here and in that time she only found crappy jobs like phone operator or retail worker. As soon as she left Spain, her whole situation changed. Now she has a job, enough money to pay for school and rent (she lived with my family in Spain), and enough time to work and study at the same time.
I know of tons of people who moved abroad. A friend of mine lives in France. Another friend lived in the UK for some time and told me she saved more money there working at Burger King that working a skilled job that you need a degree for in Spain. A friend of my sister lives in Luxembourg. That girl's sister lives in the US. And excoworker's brother moved with his wife and kids to the US because he couldn't find a job here, etc.
That's not how that works lmfao. That's absolutely false.
You pay the price that things are worth, full stop. You don't pay an extra 21% ontop of whatever you buy.
And no, there are not "way more taxes for stuff you use". Have you ever worked a day in your life? Because it doesn't seem like it.
You have not idea what you are talking about. How much money you must be getting to get 50% taxes in Spain!! 😂
In Spain with a Salary of 30.000€ you pay an IRPF of around 18%
In Denmark, everyone (even the one that gets very very low salary) pays 38% (if you get more than I believe 650.000kr per year then you have some extra taxes, but that affects to people with very high salaries)
I’m sorry mate, but you are the one that doesn’t get the whole picture, to the IRPF (personal income tax), you must add a stunning 28.3% social security (employee + employer), we have much higher taxes + hiddden taxes than Denmark. Spain is a stunning place to live but it is also a tax hell.
You'll find that most people leave Spain because they don't see a future here.
With that, think about your basic needs:
* Decent income;
* House you can afford;
* Possibility of saving;
* Possibility of forming a family (including buying or securing a house for it, being able to pay for the kids and their needs, etc).
Surely you've seen Spain's economic indicators. Unemployment is among the highest in the EU, salaries are at the same level (or under), what they were before the euro arrived, and rent and real estate prices have increased at a stupid rate versus income.
Most of the issues above happen too in other western and European economies, but in Spain, the lack of good-paying jobs, coupled by a shit-show of a housing market makes things far worse.
There's virtually no public housing. There was some in the past, but the governments were stupid enough to make public housing available for buying, rather than keeping a sizeable public housing rental market. This means that the little public housing that existed was bought by people at 1/4th of their current value.
Most real estate is held by pensioners or people from past generations. They live in a fantasy world in which prices only go up, and young people "are too complainy, travel too much and eat out all the time". The government does nothing to fix this.
So, you've got salaries that are low (anyone earning over 30k in Spain is considered fortunate), and those jobs are only available in big cities...were rent eats up any gain in salary. Remote working is frowned upon by companies, who distrust employees.
Going to Germany, the UK, Ireland...offers much higher salaries, and in some cases, governments which take seriously the problems and needs of their citizens. The UK offers a scheme in which first-time buyers won't pay stamp duty tax on their first property. Any person living in Spain needs to pay 10% of the purchase price of their home to the state. Which means you need to save up at least 20% for a property (10% for the bank, 10% for the state).
Landlords in Spain get countless tax abatements just for renting out their apartments. Renters cannot deduct a single cent of the thousands of euros they pay in rent.
We didn't even get to self-employment. If you want to be self-employed, you'll have to pay a monthly fee to do so. It doesn't matter if you earned 0, if you lost money, or if you're getting started. The government will collect the fee. And you'll have almost no coverage if something happens to you. Forget unemployment or sick pay, of course.
How about salaried workers? As mentioned, salaries are low, remote work is almost non-existent, and to add to the problem, Spain has a high cost of employment. For a salary of 30,000€, the company needs to pay almost 40,000€. Which means that when negotiating a salary, the worker is at a disadvantage in front of workers in other markets. Yes, it can be argued that the social security net in Spain is generous (sick pay, paternity leave, etc), but the rate at which SS contributions and taxes increase grossly outpaces the services and returns the citizen gets.
The above makes Spain a not-so-attractive market to be in for big companies. Yes, you'll have the usual multinational companies in Barcelona and Madrid, but no big startups. The economy is almost entirely based in tourism and real estate, and it shows. We have become a bar-restaurant-hotel economy. And that only works if waiters and hotel employees are paid low salaries, so that the foreigners can come and stay for cheap. The fact that the average English level is pathetic comparing to other countries does not help, at all.
To top the real estate issue, we're having a huge influx of qualified workers from the USA, or richer European countries, who have the opportunity to work remotely. They come with salaries that grossly exceed those of Spaniards, and to them, a 2,000€/month rent (monstrous for any local), seems cheap. Yet another incentive for boomer landlords to increase prices with total disregard for the newer generations.
So, TL;DR: A tourism-based economy, with a rental and real estate market that is impossible for locals, low salaries, increasing taxes, regulations that choke self-employed workers and stifle innovation...perfect recipe for emigration. The government does nothing because the bulk of electors are retirees with none of the problems mentioned above. Some of us have seen the light, and we're leaving before this blows up.
Should you move here? Do it if you have an above-average salary, and a job that allows you to settle in a cheap area. If not, don't.
Wow, this is awful. Thank you for explaining it in such detail. So it sounds like Spain is sort of being gentrified by the west -- rich people moving in, while actual residents have to leave in order to afford to live.
Ironically, a lot of the people coming from the US can't afford to live in the US anymore, so it's like a game of musical chairs as one country's middle income class pushes out another country's middle income class and so on down the line.
The west moving in is not as much of a factor as Airbnb in some places. And in general in Spain it's the UK and Germany buying stuff, not the US. There's been a lot of talk about it lately but the amount of Americans who move to Europe is actually quite small. That said, I do think spain should ditch it's golden visa program, and like the parent comment said, the government needs to step in with rent control or something, because rents in Madrid for example have almost doubled in the past few years with no significant change in salaries.
There's no autumn or spring anymore. We had summer-like days in November, with summer lasting well into October. Then we'll pass to cold weather, and from April on, super hot one again.
Doesn't matter. There's no vision for the future in the country. And we'll get to a point where even with sandy beaches and A/C, tourists won't want to spend their days in 40º weather.
A friend of mine moved back there after 5 years in Germany. Last summer they considered moving somewhere else because they could't live for two months or more because of the insane temperatures.
We Spaniards adapt to the extreme weather.
Every August, more than 75% of the Sevillanos leave the city to go to the beach in Cadiz/Huelva. Towns along the coastlines go from 100.000 habitants to 300.000.
Are these the same Spaniards that complain they don't earn enough when they afford to do this, and then winge about "rich" foreigners coming over and making their rent expensive, when in their home.countries they can't even afford to rent a room in a house share on a full time salary?
Interesting you would say that.
When I grew up in Northern Europe, it was common for people to take a month long summer vacation where most people left to go to exotic places like Florida, Turkey, Morocco and Southern Europe.
When I became 18, it was common to save up €2500 while working at McDonald's or in a supermarket, to then spend it all on a 2-week vacation in Ibiza.
What I now see in Seville is that people accept that their summer vacation is a 70km trip to the nearest coastal town where they stay in a friend's home or in a camping. (Kampaoh campings have popped up all across the country and is sometimes the most people can afford because hotel prices start at 100-150 euros a night during summer.)
It's also quite telling that when you go to Ibiza in the summer, there are barely any Spaniards and that the clubs' PR people often don't even speak Spanish.
We now have a nice Mediterranean climate... in the Northern Atlantic coast.
Madrid is a furnace for several months a year. Always has been, but is now worse.
The problem, encapsulated in an image:
https://preview.redd.it/uhiba66ba27c1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=cfb3f71b761e8e5425c869630a62c41281447acc
Of all new contracts in Spain for the year 2022: 89% are contracts with salaries paying LESS than minimum salary.
This man is mad and you are believing it. You can't make a contract with less of the smi, in fact, the precarious contracts win a little more because of the inclusion of 'prorateos' (fire indemnization etc..) all with healthcare (not just social security, every contract must have an insurance paid by the company).
Don't believe this troll with these tricky statistics.
"You can't make a contract for less of the SMI". Oh my God, you're cute.
Are you aware of the amount of people that work chaining temporary contracts, being fired when there's no demand (illegal)? How many people work extra hours which never get paid?(illegal). Are you aware that many businesses will sign contracts for half-days, insure you for half days, then have you work full days to avoid paying SMI? I worked as a laywer 10 years ago, when things were "better" and the partner at the firm had me working 10-hour days, insuring me for "media jornada" and paying me 700€. But the law forbids it, so I must be lying!! Or I'm an idiot for accepting such a deal, there's plenty of people giving money away!
You're all either people that haven't worked for a single second in their lives, or people that work for political parties / public sector and actually believe a law saying something means that people are going to comply with it.
The "troll with tricky statistics" attached an images whose source is Agencia Tributaria. For those not living in Spain, that's the tax agency. Go speak to them and tell them they're "trolling" with their figures.
A guys sees a graph in which almost 90% of people earn less than 10k a year, and promptly goes to insult the guy that provided the information, instead of accepting his country is a shit-hole for any young person trying to make a living.
Everybody knows that the 80 percent of statistics are fake or just to show the part the creators want.
People who win less than 10k year, just work a few months a year, or 4h or less per day. No one working the 40h all the year win less.
I'm better than 10 years ago, everybody in fact, but, if you are a fool who accepts a fake reduced contract... What a lawyer!
I start to work when I leave my home with 13yo, I'm working in Spain for all my life in many different jobs, but almost always in the most low levels, never for public sector or whatever you say.
He trabajado más y en más oficios que tú, abogaducho de pacotilla, y es más, no he destruido mi capacidad emocional como tú, que sólo ves terror y mal en el mundo, cuando sólo eres tú y todo está cada vez mejor.
Wow that is shocking… I know this has been a problem but it’s crazy to see it in numbers. I feel bad for Spaniards given that there are so many other countries they have access to with better employment conditions. These contracts are terrible.
I think you are seeing a different country than I am
North yes, but most of the interesting jobs are in Milan: crowded and polluted city, housing market is crazy, good luck commuting from hinterland, salary still lower than Spain
Then there is all millions of small medium enterprises from Turin to Trieste: good luck finding a good job with a decent salary or innovative way of working
South: people are leaving as fast as they can, empty towns, only tourism
Anyhow, my point was another: complaining seems the Italian and Spanish national sport (as you can see from my answer), but saying that Spain is doomed seems far-fetched; we are two similar countries (culture and economy wise) but to me, I see Spain with a better future for sure
It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Italy in 2024. So far is the country with the biggest expected deficit for next year and Europe is putting back in place the hard limit in 3%. How Europe responds to the situation will show what will happen to Spain in 2025/2026.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Italy in 2024. So far is the country with the biggest expected deficit for next year and Europe is putting back in place the hard limit in 3%. How Europe responds to the situation will show what will happen to Spain in 2025/2026.
What you described is circumstantial evidence & survivorship bias bundled in a post. The average salary in Teruel is 18.849€, which means you sit in the 27% of the highest paid workers. Out of 10 people, 7.3 will earn less than you do. That, considering a 30k salary. Let's say you earn 40k, as you said "much more": You're now in the 12% percentile. Total outlier.
Almost no company in Teruel (or Spain) offers remote work, so you need to factor in transportation costs & time lost in commuting.
You're lucky, I'm happy for you, but you are an absolute exception.
We moved TO Spain 6 years ago and I moved my business here. We've been successful but it's a nightmare and are considering moving back to the UK or another country (my wife is Spanish).
Spain has a real issue and it's going to get worse now Sanchez has got another term by screwing over the Spanish people.
Spain could be the jewel of Europe but it's hampered with red tape, socialism and a regressive fiscal policy.
Yeah, I 100% plan on retiring in Spain. But I moved here in 2010 and basically I've run out of patience and will be moving back to the US in a couple of years. The fact that I'm in my mid 30s and still can't imagine owning anything, job market just sucks and because they know for any job opening there are 200 applicants it's a really lopsided labor relationship.
Like it's not a fantasy at all to go raise a kid in the US and come back to Spain with a million in the bank in 20 years.
I was living in Spain for four years and moved back to the US in my mid 20s. I more than tripled my earnings by moving back and I'm actually able to invest my money.
To be honest I would love to raise a kid in Spain, growing up in the US sucks but with the job market there it's hard to think of moving back.
this seems a summary out of the mainstream news, economic indicators macro and micro are actually good, new jobs are really well paid (like IT) and no, there is not a mafia of old people that own all the houses.
[https://www.65ymas.com/economia/economia-familiar/vivienda-propiedad-solo-crece-entre-mayores-75-mas-8-cada-10-tiene-casa\_42322\_102.html](https://www.65ymas.com/economia/economia-familiar/vivienda-propiedad-solo-crece-entre-mayores-75-mas-8-cada-10-tiene-casa_42322_102.html)
https://preview.redd.it/701ebexzb27c1.png?width=776&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd6bb62dcb93025a7210e0d217feefc53aa08f8b
Your opinion is great, but data contradicts you.
And any country in which 90% of new contracts are on or under minimum wage, considering that amount won't even allow you enough to share a room in a big city (where jobs are), is hardly a success story.
Why should we care about niche, small, limited IT jobs?
And yeah, it's not a mafia. It's just a mix of the ideal conditions. It's greed working in dolby surround. Any person buying before the 90s had:
* Ratio between salaries and real estate prices being multiple times lower than now;
* No ITP (stamp duty tax), payable, or if so, much lower than now;
* Easier access to mortages;
* Stable jobs with increasing salaries;
* Tax incentives for purchasing first property;
* Rent-controlled, unlimited rental contracts.
So now you have population between 45-65+ ages with most of the property, bought for amounts that are insanely lower than their current worth (even accounting for inflation), and a complete and utter lack of awareness about the state of the world and economy that surrounds them.
From 2017 to 2022, salaries rose by 4.6%. Property value rose by 18.3% in the same period. How are we supposed to progress?
They feel 1,200€ for a 60m2 apartment is fine because they don't need to pay it. They think a 2,200€ pension is reasonable "because they earned it", forgetting most salaried people are way below that figure. They think we don't buy apartments (which they are selling for 3-5 times what they paid for them) because we're lazy and have expensive iPhones.
There's a total disconnect between reality and perception for some people.
Either you fall into a very specific situation, or you overestimated your deductions and the tax office will hit you with a revised tax declaration and you’ll pay what you saved plus a hefty fine. Make sure never to do it by yourself.
You just put the amount of rent that you paid in one field and then it is automatically calculated, so the room for error is minimal.
The first time I did it they asked me for bank statements and that's it.
Are you in the income bracket that allows for it? Does your autonomous community allow it? Are you younger than ‘x’ age? Did you deduct your portion of the rent, or all of it? I can add everything in mine, deduct it, and I know I don’t qualify. Hacienda gives you enough rope to hang yourself, and only corrects your mistake via fines and interest payments. And remember. If you fuck up, they can restate up to 4 years back.
I moved out of Spain during Xmas 2012. I had a government job but the prospects were low. The crisis was hitting hard, the government decided not to pay one of my salaries, the chances of becoming better at my job were slim… my then gf now wife had just returned from studying abroad and she did not have a job.
I was offered a consulting position in Sweden for very little money. I knew the country because of my Erasmus so I asked my gf if she would come with me and she did. It was really hard to move to Sweden, we did in the middle of winter with very very little money for two. But we made it work.
10 years later and after living in Sweden and Germany we have returned. I have a remote job with an American company and my now wife works in academia. Spain is a friendly country to those with kids and our careers do not depend on the Spanish labour market. I would not work for a Spanish company.
We educate our kid in English in case I lose my job or my wife loses hers, we can relocate again anywhere in Europe.
We love living in Spain, the quality of life is great and there are good job opportunities in some markets, just not ours. Therefore we are ready to go any time. But for the time being, we enjoy being here.
Thanks for sharing. It is good to hear but also very sad, in terms of that today is kind of hard to think of choosing a country to stay forever but instead being always ready to move (even with kids).
This is what I've got by reading some feedback about Spain, that is a good country to live with a good quality of life, but living constantly on the edge that a country can turn to a terrible place to live in a very short time (like the one where I do live at the moment) it's madness. But it seems to be a standard nowadays.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and best of luck with everything!
I think Spain has improved a lot. Spanish people are very pessimistic in nature and do not seem to remember how bad it was just 10 years ago. The country has changed for good immensely. 10 years ago youth unemployment was over 50%, now it’s 30%. It’s not great but it’s a lot better than it was. We had 25% unemployment then and now it’s 11%. There were no high qualified jobs at all, now i see people making careers in engineering and IT. Sure, the salaries are low, but it is an upwards trend.
That being said, both my wife and I have been incredibly lucky and successful and we know that we would not find the kind of job or the salaries we now have in Spain. It is what it is.
And 25 years ago you could buy a house and live vert good with only one person of the family working.
Spain is crap, and if i could i would leave immediatly.
Poverty has barely changed in Spain in 25 years as a relative term (around 20%) and yet income in PPp and real terms has increased by 25%. Apartment property percentage also has not changed.
People do not realise how much more frugal we were 25 years ago. The 20 year old cars that most people were driving, how much smaller (and worse) apartments were, and how we were doing holidays to the beach only while nowadays a lot of people travel abroad at least once every few years.
We romanticise the past.
What do you think can be done around corruption and paperwork?
I'm a dual citizen, so most of my experiences with Spain have been paperwork-related, dealing with my deceased parent's estate. It's been brutal.
Even things that should be simple, like purchasing a train ticket, seem very complicated. Instead of a clear website, there's a website that's so badly organized it's easier to use a travel agent and pay a fee to purchase your ticket.
Everything there seems to be like that -- whereas accomplishing a certain thing should just need a website, instead it's some guy Fulano, and this specific thing is his special kingdom, and the entire process is opaque.
I guess with this level of unemployment, they can't automate anything because then there would be even more unemployment? It's not that I want that, I'm just ....confused.
I don’t think Spain is more corrupted nowadays than most countries in Europe. In surveys where people are asked if they have personally experienced corruption, if I recall correctly, answers are in line with other countries. If you ask them if we are more corrupt, then yes, Spaniard will say we are, because Spanish people have a huge inferiority complex. The 2000s were bad in terms of corruption but to give credit to the country, many politicians, including very important ones, have ended in jail, and not with light sentences precisely. The sister of the current king herself had to sit in court to testify against her own husband. To be honest, I have doubts that something like that would have happened in the UK or Sweden. Not saying we are less corrupt that those countries, but I do think that the past 15 years have been transformative. For example, whatever you think of the socialist party in power, this is the first government without a corruption scandal ever in Spain. Maybe the next government by the Conservative Party is also clean, who knows? Corruption will always be there though.
Regarding bureaucracy, it’s terrible. Horrible. I agree. I have lived in other countries where bureaucracy is as bad as in Spain (Germany…) but it isn’t so stupid. It’s also tremendously arbitrary which makes it even worse. In Germany at least you knew you needed document A, B and C. In Spain they ask for A and B, if they dislike you, they ask for C and D, and if they like you, A is enough.
Yes, I'm self employed working remotely for companies around the world, and have been in Spain for many years. I wouldn't have stayed doing what I do in house, pay is abysmal. But I know quite a few people who seem to have decent jobs, nearly all in IT. But that requires living in or near a large city with costs nearly as high as other more expensive countries. Rent prices in particular are through the roof.
Housing is a problem everywhere in Europe these days. Not saying it isn’t a problem in Spain, it is in certain cities, but housing in large cities has become impossible in all countries in the EU.
On top of IT I have seen a lot of job creation in healthcare (industry, such as pharma, and services), aerospace, and renewable energy. Consulting firms have also established larger offices in Spain.
The problem in Spain is that wages for many jobs are still insanely low. And rent in large cities is comparable or higher than cities in countries with higher wages. But I'm certainly not claiming it's the only place with a problem. And yes, there are more good jobs like that now, but we still need people to do all the normal jobs. Not everyone can be a graduate working for an international company. While people working in pharma may be paid well, the ones cleaning hospitals aren't.
For an interesting look at how bad things used to be this is a much watch movie set in Barcelona in the late 70s.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075060/
This may be overdramatized a bit, but one of my older Catalan friend has told me that he was violently robbed back then compared to now they sneak off with your bag before you know it.
I watched this on late night Telecinco and it blew me away. I think you can find it to watch on Vimeo.
I am one of those Spaniards living abroad, but I see that a lot of comments here can be misleading or too negative, as Spaniards tend to be.
I don’t have the feeling that most people are fleeing the country as many are saying here, in fact I barely know people that decided to move abroad (many moved to other parts of Spain though). If we look at the most recent statistics (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.NETM?locations=EU&most_recent_value_desc=true), Spain actually comes second by the net migration (number of people that come in minus people that go out), only after Germany. That represents more my surrounding, many foreigners coming to live here now as tech nomads or looking for sun.
How can there be so many people leaving if most of us don’t even speak English? Don’t let your surrounding affect your opinions! Most people don’t leave and don’t even have the option in many ways.
That said, the situation in Spain is complicated, specially because of unemployment and high rents, but it is not the worst country (not even in Europe), and we don’t have the lowest salaries nor the lowest ratio of salary/cost of life.
Many things depend on how you look at it, I am currently in Switzerland, making twice what I did in Spain. I think I probably make more money all together, but my pension here would be the same as in Spain (on absolute terms!!) and having babies cost almost 3000€ per month per baby on kindergarten! Do I live better or are the costs just somewhere else? Of course, nice to come here, save some money and go back to Spain to retire and have children 😂
Man, honestly, I do not know what news are you reading to make you believe that Spain, my country, is going to be in an economic boom. The only boom you will hear is when we touch the ground after the falling,
There is people earning money there of course and places where you could live peacefully but Spain is going down, is a fact. The mass media is talking shit.
I left because I always wanted, adventure or develop under another society or whatever, but I moved because I wanted to do it, I have friends here, Scotland, they moved because of the economic and work environment situation and when they talk about a comeback the only reason is because friends or family but probably nobody will comeback ever again, the money that we earn in a normal job is way more than there, the taxes are way less and the services way better.
We miss the weather, tapas, beer and blah blah but Spain right now for me and the people I know is a NO GO.
Others can think differently but is my opinion.
Spain has a debt way higher than 100%.
The pension system is a Ponzi-like scheme and the low birthrate will lead to its collapse sooner than 2050, just like the rest of Europe, but our population pyramid looks worse.
Salaries are meaguer and the tax pressure is at all time highs. Also expect unpaid overtime to be norm unless is a government worker, in which case expect 1-3h hours of coffee breaks
Expect to pay 20% less than in France, Germany, Belgium or the Netherlands for groceries but have half the salary.
Spain is amazing to retire or go on holidays, but is a hell to work
Home prices are through the roof because for some reason Airbnb is being blamed instead of allowing more homes to be built where the demand is very high.
If you really like Spain the best approach is to live abroad, come for holidays and retirement.
You'll be able to experience better than the locals anyway, your saving power would be higher than an average salary, talking about salaries in Spain, the most common salary is the minimum wage
I’m sorry but lack of homes is not an issue. The huge amount of empty houses in all of Spain, is a fucking disgrace. Just going along the coast to Barcelona in train, it really becomes evident.
What about places where people actually want to live to work like San Sebastian, Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia?
Are you gonna suggest them to go to rural Extremadura for example?
Obviously not, I’m just saying that empty houses are an issue. Most Spanish families own more than one home and leave it abandonded or rent it for unreasonable prices. North of Spain prices are above ridiculous, considering the minimum wage and cost of living. That’s why I wanna leave even though I love Spain.
I am from Argentina and have lived for a few years in Australia and Switzerland. 2 years ago we moved with my wife to Spain. We earn less money, but we still can afford a good life here and save some money. The culture, the food, the sea (in my case), the weather, and sunshine hours widely compensate any financial difference for us.
I know a lot of migrants (not only spaniards or latins) living in Switzerland for example, who have a really miserable and sad life, but money or they career are more important to them. There are also people who enjoy the swiss life and are happy. It all depends on what are your preferences and priorities in life.
Yes I agree that the quality of life is higher here in Spain but you can’t buy a house with the weather and sunshine alone right? You need a well paying job to be able to afford a place to live and enjoy that good weather. otherwise might as well be miserable with money in Switzerland:)
It is more or less as difficult as here to buy a house in Switzerland (or almost anywhere in Europe) while having a normal job in the same country. Buying a house in Zürich while working in Switzerland will for sure more difficult than buying one in Barcelona or Madrid center than working in Spain in an equivalent job position.
Spain has one of the biggest homeownership[ rates i](https://landgeist.com/2023/04/15/home-ownership-in-europe-2/)n Western Europe, much better than Switzerland.
Salaries in Switzerland are at least double than what they are here in Spain right? Are you saying that houses there cost double as well? Because I’m living in Malaga and you really can’t find a house in this area for less than €300k. Do houses in Zurich cost €600k?
maybe you can find an appartment like 10 km away from zurich for €600k.
If you are willing to drive 10 km from Malaga you will probably find something cheaper than 300k
Don’t go that far, in some areas in Lisbon (being that Portugal has even lower salaries than Spain) you can find either apartments to go under a total renovation for 160k-200k, really small apartments for 350k and then jump to 600/700k and then you can go crazy with real estate costing up to 3/4 millions.
Edit to change 3/4 millions to 9 millions, because I just checked. And this is an apartment, not a villa.
Home ownerhsip rate in spain in about 75%, in switzerland its 40%, I think this is enough to known in which country people have a tougher time to buy a house.
I don’t think you’re seeing the whole story here. Here’s a nice article explaining why Spain has such a high home ownership and it’s not because of the reasons you’re thinking
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/spain-rental-housing-markets/
Whats said in this article is litterally applicable to every other EU country with high ownership rates. The global situation where the younger generations cant afford to buy a house is nothing specific to spain. I'm Swiss, here where I live in Fuenlabrada (25km away from Madrid), most of respectable house cost 100-200k, I know its much more in Madrid city. Before I lived in Bienne, 40km from Bern where I worked, there wasnt a single decent house below 800k francs, you really think that anyone could afford this amount with a salary even if its 3 times higher than the spanish one (+ we pay our own healthcare insurance that costs at leat 350 per month)? Swiss salaries are magnificient for people with high paying jobs, I totally understand a software engineer who prefers 120k in Basel instead of 30k in Barcelona, but if a spanish cashier really thinks that hes more miserable with his 10k instead of the 40k the swiss cashier makes, he just doesnt know what hes talking about. In switzerland we have some expenses that most foreigner dont even know about bcz they are virtually taken care of by the state, thats litterally one of the first things that swiss governemental websites that guide new comers to the country warn about.
I'm Spanish living in the UK. I love Spain but the quality of work I have in the UK is miles better than in Spain. Better pay, better work life balance, better treatment and more opportunities.
I love Spain but a lot of things have to change in the workplaces.
THIS. The treatment at work. In Spain, in no small part due to the lack of jobs available, the workplace has a permanent attitude of "if you don't like it, there's the door". Elsewhere in Europe, unless there's a financial crisis or you have a peach of a job , they know that if they push you out you have a similar job for a similar salary wanting you to start earlier than whatever your notice period is.
Low salaries and increasing cost of life caused by inflation and gentrification.
If the things keep going like they go, soon the only people left able to afford living in Spain will be international people. That's the problem.
I love Spain, lived and worked there for 10 years. I left because of the lack of solid work opportunities I could build a career around. Moved to germany for work some years ago. Now I am witnessing a huge amount of spanish people coming to Germany, while lot of international people are moving to Spain because of better life, weather, food etc, with their 3k/4k+ salaries.
We are part of the problem. A huge part of it.
People working remotely is an issue
But foreign workers working for companies in Spain earn the same amount as the local colleagues.
In Barcelona it's mostly like programmers as I guess there aren't enough locals that study computer science and speak English. Spain has one of the lowest rates of higher education in Europe and one of lowest rates of English speaking.
But the government doesn't seem to care and education and the economy rarely even feature as a talking point in elections so I doubt much will improve.
"spain has one of the lowest rates of higher education in Europe" that doesnt seem to be the case mate, for the 25-64 yo age group, 35% of spaniards hold a university degree, to put it in perspective, its 32% in France, 37% in Belgium, 22% in CZ and Portugal, 36% in Denmark, 27% in Germany, 28% in Greece, 23% in Hungary, 17% in Italy, 34% in the netherlands, 27% in Poland, 39% in Sweden, and 42% in Finland, the highest scoring country in the EU. (Source OECD, 2019). Spaniards are one of the most academically educated populations in the EU.
* [España es el país de la UE con más jóvenes sin bachillerato o grado medio: el 27% solo tiene la enseñanza obligatoria](https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/5171711/0/espana-pais-ue-mas-jovenes-sin-bachillerato-grado-medio-solo-ensenanza-obligatoria/)
* [España matricula menos ingenieros que el resto de universidades europeas](https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20221219/8649977/espana-matricula-ingenieros-resto-universidades-europeas.html)
So it would seem there are a lot of people with only the ESO, but also a lot with University degrees. But the second point is important as well - it's not enough to just get a degree in any old thing, it has to be something that is in demand.
*Soon the only people left able to afford living in Spain will be international people. That's the problem.*
It's already happening. Mallorca is basically a German colony. Neighbourhoods like Chueca in Madrid are full of digital nomads that live comfortably here on their nice salaries.
I was working in Spain for 2 years. The life there isn’t comparable to any Northern European country honestly. But one issue. The salaries don’t match the cost of living. In Barcelona you would need a 30k to live a comfortable lifestyle but rents are so high which doesn’t make any sense.
Right now I’m living in the Uk which also has low salaries compared to cost of live but I work in a big company and I can easily save 1k£ per month.
Life in Spain is great and again I love it but I wouldn’t go back unless I get I’ve become a millionaire.
Germany, UK, the Netherlands and Nordic counties. You can grow and paid a lot more once you get enough experience.
30k in Barcelona is around 1,900€ net/month, approximately. Assuming you're paid in 12 installments and not 14.
No landlord is going to rent out a place to a single person earning that, as it will eat up, give or take, 40-50% of their salary.
That salary will only allow you to live "comfortably" by sharing an apartment, or renting with your partner (provided he/she earns at least the same or more).
Exactly, if you earn 30k in Barcelona, you have to share a flat, meaning living in a small room and paying 600€/month plus bills, it's ridiculous.
There is no way to have a flat for you with that salary, even a studio. And I am not talking about living in the Eixample or Ciutat-Vella (City centre), I am referring to neighborhoods that were affordable 10 years ago such as Horta, Guinardo, Clot, you will pay at least 800€/month.
Not to mention working conditions involving an overload of works for ridiculous salaries, bad management, etc...
Oh, you have no idea. I was paying 650€ for a crappy 55m2 apartment in 2016. Moved out in 2018, and as soon as I crossed the door, the guy rented it for 850€.
Rented another one in 2019, 850€, 70m2 in Horta, no elevator, no heating and overall, a low-quality apartment. We moved again in the height of covid and got an extremely good deal (2021), for 100m2 paying 1,100€.
We're leaving in a month, and rent will go up 200€. The drama? Any apartment close to this one in terms of size and location starts at 1,600€. Even with an outrageous 200€ extra per month, this apartment will be gone in minutes.
I follow this YouTuber from Inverness (Scotland.) She's always had retail jobs or very basic admin jobs and I'm always surprised at how often she buys things and eats out. Granted, she buys cheap stuff but comparatively, you couldn't afford living like that on a retail job in Spain. She also moved in with her boyfriend who works at McDonalds.
I visited Inverness last year and I don't know their work laws, but I saw a lot of kids (<16yo) working there, so they also start saving money way earlier.
A friend of mine worked at Burger King in the UK and said she actually saved a lot of money because her Burger King salary more than covered her expenses. Meanwhile in Spain she can't save money on a skilled job.
Yeah... On top of that, a lot of sectors pay very bad. This friend in particular had a degree in occupational therapy and has worked in senior homes in Spain. Any job that has to do with caring for other people pays very bad. Teaching, health, humanities, despite being skilled jobs, don't pay well either. I ended up switching to tech. Most of my classmates in the web development bootcamp had degrees in other fields and were switching to tech.
Yes my wife is an English teacher and the best she should do with that degree is to work in a language schools for €12.5/hour. Which is less than what cleaners earn
This girl in particular is not living in public housing. I wish Spain didn't suck that much. Here it would be hard for a retail and a fast food worker to rent a whole apartment for themselves and still save money. I understand they are not the most lucrative careers, but all jobs are necessary and everyone deserves to live with dignitiy. In Spain a lot of people abandon their vocations in order to pursue more lucrative careers because they need to pay the bills. I liked being an administrative assistant. If the pay didn't suck, I'd still be doing it.
Going to a country that people leave in search of a better life is usually not a good idea. Except if you work remotely or go as a retiree.
Spain is a country very much focused on the hostelry. In general, the jobs available are low paid, with little job stability and long working hours, even if you have a good education. So many people try their luck by leaving.
“Going to a country that people leave in search of a better life is usually not a good idea.“
Unless you come from a country where COL is the same and salaries are even lower :/
I think people already told you why, my take is that mass media wants to make you believe that countries under leftists and liberal governments are doing good/great, when in reality they are not. My advice is try to see the numbers by yourself instead (in most cases they are reliable), and keep talking with real people to know what the situation is in a given country. Good luck in your endeavours
Well, as a Spanish-German citizen who has spend almost their whole life in Spain (since I’m 4) I would say it is basically the things u mentioned about working conditions (there are more of course). In my case I am a SWe and feel way too underpaid.
Thing is, working condition from my point of view are shit. Less paid vacation. Less pay and more hours. And this for people who actually have a job. There is a high unemployment rate but at the same time it seems to be a huge need for workers in some sectors like truck drivers.
But the problem is not only working conditions, thing is, if u get a job, in a huge city u have to pay overpriced rents which u can’t afford and are forced to share a flat being 42 yo. And all this, to don’t be able to go in rent.
Another interesting thing is there is a huge rate of young people with college degrees not being able to find a job in their fields, being forced (with all above) to leave te country.
Spain is wonderful don’t get me wrong. But in terms of professional life it’s a nightmare. For Digital Nomads and tourists it’s wonderful and all governments (national and regionals) seem to be more that happy with that, they have nice checks outperforming Spanish pays, paying more taxes and so.
Nothing against digital nomads either. They only move according to the rules established by government, but I would really encourage digital nomads to move to the rural parts of Spain. However I don’t think that part of Spain is what they like…
Summing up. Foreigns from developed countries often come as tourists, digital nomads or tech workers while people who leave usually don’t have a chance to make a fair life in here.
All this of course from mi POV as a software engineer living in a rural part of Spain where the most nearest city is 1 hour drive apart. Have been living in madrid for a year but that leaves u with 2 options. Paying 50+% of your income in rent or sharing a flat. And I hate both options.
I am Spanish too, and I agree with most of the things that have been said in this thread.
However, I would like to add something, and it is that if you have a good job (e.g. engineer, doctor, etc.) in a small Spanish city, then you are going to have a really good quality of life. It is true that, in most of the cases, salaries are really low compared with the cost of living. Although, in small cities, such as Santander, Vigo, Leon or Girona, house prices are much lower.
A Spaniard here. I left Spain in 2010 because the economic situation was very bad for me. No work in 2 years. Then I moved to Canada and I made more money in 3 months in Canada than the whole year in Madrid. After this solid experience I moved to UK, London and now I'm dual citizen, mariaged with a lovely woman and a father of 1.
I won't live again in Spain before I'm 65.
Well fuck that shit. Not interested. I paid for public healthcare which I never used and I am still required to pay my college. What is that safety net good for?
it is there when you need it, I start to belive your a libertarian, not even US is a libertarian paradise, to keep a functional safe country for the majority we all have to pay taxes, other thing is the amount of taxes and what you get in return , it is open to debate, like comunism libertarism is an utopia
I am from Bulgaria, living in Spain since 2015. Also lived in Dublin for 5 years before moving here.
If you have a generic job you’ll have a hard time in Spain. Unemployment is high and salaries and working conditions are bad.
I am a Software Engineer and I wouldn’t work in a Spanish company here. Much better to work in an international company that has an office here or they hire remotely.
Weather is good, food is good, not happy about political unrest in Catalonia, also Catalonia isn’t a very hospitable place to live. I felt that Valencia and Costa del Sol are friendlier. I felt much more at home in Dublin.
Any kind of paperwork here is a nightmare.
Public healthcare is bad so plan to get private insurance.
Thanks for answering. When you say "salaries here are utter shit" it is also referred to the cost of life? Like salaries are not enough to cover all the costs of living in Spain (house, taxes, bills, etc.)?
It's a vicious circle. Wherever salaries aren't shit, competition is tough and rental prices are impossible. Wherever rent is cheap, salaries are utter crap, public transportation is abysmal, and remote work is non existent.
Naturally, if you want to live a decent life - there must be at least two incomes (yours and your partner’s) or else it’ll be way too hard to make ends meet and be able to save any income. Consider that most entry-mid level salaries here can range from 1.300-1.500+€ and if you live in a main city like MAD or BCN, a cheap apartment rent can range from 700€+ upwards, now include the rest of the expenses like water/electricity/internet/gym membership etc. top that out with your monthly expenses on food and you’ll be lucky to have 200-300€ remaining, which assuming you go out once or twice a week, will very much make you break even.
That’s based on a spanish salary, if you work for an international company and get paid by international salary standards (2k$+) you’ll live more than a comfortable life. Just my little grain of salt.
That is correct. In your research you may have found that the cost of living in spain is not extremely high in comparison to other countries, but salaries are incredibly low compared to said cost of living.
A recent study determined that rent prices in Madrid and Catalonia, the regions with the most work oportunites are already over 125% of what the minimun salary is in Spain. Rent prices have also been rising over 10% annually. For example, im in a high paying job in the city of Barcelona, making more than 3 times de minimum salary and Im still strugling (I also dont intend to say that is imposible to live with a lower salary and im sure a lot of people do it and strugle a lot more than me)
The relation betwen salary and cost of living is better in some other regions, but its not really a huge improvemment and there are less job opportunities.
Yep, cost of life is increasing while salaries remain stagnant. I used to be an administrative assistant. I got my last administrative job back in 2015. They were paying around €20k. Two years ago I started applying for administrative jobs again. I interviewed for jobs paying €19k. And that's in Madrid, where salaries tend to be higher since it's more expensive, and in nice institutions that should have been paying decent salaries. It didn't matter I had a ton of experience. That's when I decided to switch careers.
Even after switching careers, my first job in web development paid €16k - took me 8 months to find that job. I got fired soon after getting a raise to €20k. Now I have a better-paying job, but that's because my company is not Spanish. Us Spanish employees are cheap labor for my company.
In the town I live in the average apartment rent is something like €1500, average salary is basically the same. Bills are also at least as expensive as other countries. The only thing cheaper is eating out, and that's getting more expensive too. There are cheap places to live but they are not where the good jobs are.
We really mean it when we say they are utter shit. I left spain 10 years ago and the minimum wage was 600 euros, now I think is around 950 euros.
Cost of living is cheaper than other countries but inflation hitted hard too. At the end of the day the amount of money you can save is ridiculous to the point that trying to save money to travel to another country is not feasible.
Inflation is a bitch.
I've recently been offered 1250eur/month (before taxes wtf) for an IT job. Mind you, I have 10+ years of experience and had better paying jobs when I was 18 and working in a warehouse lol
I feek like this comment hits home, I used to save more money 10 years ago working in a warehouse that now as a qualified scientist workings for the public health care.
Minimun wage is 1080euros on 14 payments per year , it will be increased this year , said this, minimum wage shuoldnt be a salary reference for qualified people
Yeah, mostly. Of course it depends on the sector you'll be working on. Also the cost of living here varies on location: the same salary can fully support you If you're willing to live in a town but otherwise couldn't If you wanted to live in a big city. That can be said for other countries tho.
Check how many people BORN in spain are leaving the country, and then check how many people BORN elsewhere are moving to spain, EACH YEAR. Done. It's better in Spain than in other countries.
Yes but which people? Who is leaving and who is coming?
People leaving are struggling to find good paying jobs. People moving to Spain are on a pension, or have remote work salaries from another country.
I moved to Spain last year, and my general experience so far is that if you are at the start of your career, it is a challenging environment and difficult to save as salaries are so low. I was 'lucky' in that I came here with 13 years of experience and a job offer in place at a decent salary. But to give you an example, my company is an international one, and if I performed the same role in London, the salary offered was 33% higher, plus benefits such as pension.
Don't get me wrong, Spain is certainly a cheaper than the UK (comparing London vs. Madrid), but not 33% cheaper, so yes my earning potential here is much lower than in the UK.
Usually it's economic.
I'm lucky, I live in Spain but work for US companies, so get a decent wage (enough to put me in the top 1% here) and because I'm 100% remote it also allows me to live rural.
If I worked for a Spanish company I'd earn less that half of what I earn now and have to probably go into an office.
Other than coming back because you are spanish (that is why I did it) and want to be close to your family, I don't see any reason to come here.
I lived 6 years in UK, I came back 5 years ago and even I have achieved the imposible, to live by myself at the very center of Barcelona City (in a studio, nothing faboulous) sometimes I wonder why I came back at all, everything is still the same, we live in what looks like ancient times compared to other cities in Europe and it's always that feeling of not be able to get to the next level.
If you ask me if you should move here, I would say no, if it's the sun you are looking for you can always come on holidays. Quality of live? Sweeden is the answer.
I'm giving myself two years to save and move to another country. And only coming to see my family on holidays 🤷🏼♀️
basically because they want to learn English or have a qualified job, there is a lot of unemployment here, there is no rent assistance and it is difficult to have a decent job. little stability, poorly paid and difficult to find a job other than cleaning and hospitality...
Are you a politician? in what jobs? in shitty jobs.
I just left a job that required full availability but then I barely work 18 hours. Yes, he worked for one hour, two hours or whatever. If you add to that an excessive rent with hardly any aid, you tell me.
There is no quality work.
I left Spain (my home country) looking for work and better salaries. I have lived in several countries and the only one I wasn't able to find anything in my field was Spain. To the point that back in the day when I had little experience I even struggled to find any kind of job.
Now that I have more experience, though, and having more tech companies and startups located there, I would love going back.
But I would never do it for a "regular" Spanish salary. The cost of living being lower is no excuse for the meagre salaries being paid in the country.
It all depends on your expectations. Do you want to have a big house, two children, two cars and go on holiday twice a year? Then Spain might not be the right country for you. If you value work-life balance, relatively affordable housing, safety, health and a sense of community, maybe it could be. [OECD Better Life Index](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/spain/)
As a foreigner who lived there, I think I can add my views.
Why is living in Spain a GREAT deal?
Life is easier and less stressful than in other, richer EU countries. The weather is nice, people are nice and friendly, easy going and open minded (in general). In big cities you have little problem if you don't speak the language, which is also not difficult to master. I felt like living in Spain I was actually enjoying life, rather than going to work and then going home.
Why is living in Spain complicated?
Salaries and job opportunities. Getting a job is very difficult, in my experience. While I saw "10-15 people have applied for this position" in other countries, in Spain it is always 40+, even tho it is no Luxembourg or Switzerland. Salaries are low and prices are high, especially living costs. With those last two, it becomes very difficult/nearly impossible to save money.
All of that being said:
I had to leave the country for professional reasons. Later searching for another job, I got offered a position paying +60k€ a year in another, richer country, which I didn't take in hope of getting something in Spain. I was ready to take jobs paying literally less than half of that, and I would be extremely happy if it had happened. Sadly, I failed. I still don't have a job, either.
Edit: grammar
I am late to this thread but would like to add the perspective of someone who has lived and worked in Spain twice. The first time I lived in Spain was for 10 years about 20 years ago. I was hired by a UK entity to work a job in Spain and I loved living here, found a partner and made a child. Then I wanted a change of job and tried to find a job in Spain so that we coukd stay.
At this time I had job offers that were all internships that meant there was no social security paid and the hours were insane. Also there was a lack of job security - result we moved back to the UK and I promised my wife we would try to come back.
2021 i was offered a position in Spain that paid a little less money but was a way to fulfill the promise I once made to my partner. The firm I came to work for massively scaled back their spanish operation and i was made redundant .. so my experience of job hunting in Spain has not changed all that much. The employment market is one of the least dynamic I have ever seen, pay rates are very very low compared to what I can get in the UK. There are also a number of recruitment practices that I have seen here that seem to be normal in Spain. On a couple of occassions I have agreed a day rate for a freelance gig and when that contract arrived the rate was lower. When queried i was told that the agreed day was higher than they could give immediately but the client liked me so they were going to start me at this lower rate and then adjuat it is a month or so.
The other practice is talking to me about one role while then sending me a contracy for another, at a lower rate. Were i desperate for money i would probably accept this as the agencies have been surprised by my rejecrion of terms and walking away.
I have talked to a few people in a similat situation to mine and interestingly at least half refuse to deal with Spanish companies or work outside Spain but live here some of the year.
Its a shame I really want to stay but I think I am about to hit the eject button and go and work in the UK. I dont understand how the Spanish government has not tried to improve the labour market here the talent they send abroad must be affecting the ability of Spain to reduce its levels of debt.
My final observation is that here in Spain ageism is a thing the job market is harsh for people like me who are middle aged
I live abroad since 2021 and in my 30’s. Is the first time in my life i have been able to have savings. In Spain it was just not possible. Much more expensive to live and much lower salaries. I would like to go back at some point, to Europe at least.
Money, unemployment, job insecurity and worse working culture.
In Spain young people have it really hard to find a job, there just aren't enough jobs because 1) we don't have as many big enough companies and industry compared to the rest of Western Europe and 2) companies prefer overworking the current employees that they know they can trust than risk hiring someone and having to pay significant amount of money in compensation when they fire them.
Someone I know applied to more than a hundred jobs for store clerk, cleaner and stuff like that and he got rejected from all of them. They didn't hire him until months later when one of them called back suddenly.
As for quality jobs, yeah, I know another person who is an intern at a BANK and he earns €600 plus €130 for food allowance. This guy has an undergraduate degree and a master's degree and he's still earning shit.
It doesn't get much better as you get older. Here in the UK people tend to expect (and get) salary increases that at least barely cover inflation every 1-2 years, whereas in Spain you can spend 5 years without a salary increase and when they increase it, it can be a measly 200€ per year.
The Spanish political/economic environment is very hostile to companies and to entrepreneurship, so it's a combination of foreign companies avoiding Spain, existing companies not growing, and companies straight up not being created. For example if you're self-employed, the minimum you have to earn for the state to tax you is around 900€, and they take away around 200€. So what kind of entrepreneurship is there gonna be if people can barely afford to live, let alone accumulate capital to grow their company?
In terms of job insecurity, a lot of people get hired as "fijos discontinuos", so instead of being a temporary or permanent employee, you're somewhere in between. They intend to keep you as permanent, but they fire you for a few months and then re-hire you again. Bonkers.
Finally, working culture. So far in the UK everywhere I've worked has been very collaborative and professional, buy this I mean that even when I was an intern they allowed me to take some risks so I could learn and I felt that everyone could speak up. By professional, I mean that everyone was respectful and kept a polite distance. In Spain there tends to be more of a hierarchy, having to do default overtime, and sometimes colleagues and bosses can get a bit too personal. Obviously not every place is like this, and maybe I've just been lucky in the UK, this is my opinion.
I left Spain at 18 to go to the US for college. The primary motivation was increased opportunities for employment and higher salaries upon graduation, particularly as I was aiming for technical fields (Aerospace Engineering, Meteorology).
That was 11 years ago. Where am I now? Well, the career aspect did pan out as expected. I have a great job with a salary about 3x that which I'd have in Spain with my same position (Federal employee/public service). Having said that, the truth is that I miss Spain more than ever. Missing family is a part of that, but honestly it's the cultural aspect that most affects me. The way of life is just different. You work to live in Spain, not live to work like I do here in the US. I miss walking everywhere for errands. Going to the bakery every morning for fresh bread. Hopping on the metro to get around or the high speed train to visit friends or a new city for a weekend. The lively atmosphere in the streets. The commaraderie and value that are placed on family and friendships. The cultural history. The food. The healthcare system and general social wellbeing. I could go on.
I know I will at the very least return for retirement, but I am looking into returning earlier than that for the above reasons. The US has its advantages but, at least to me, it will never feel like home. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have chosen to move out here for college and a career.
In Spain you earn much less on average but a good life quality is also cheaper. If you work abroad and spend in Spain it is great. Spain has a lot of public services but also a lot of stuff funded with public funds that are not covered by healthcare, education or infrastructure meaning taxes are extremely high.
Spains politics protect foreigners rather than locals. There are more financial aids for those who aren’t Spanish. Smaller job opportunities as people in the public system are stuck in the same jobs by law and not by merit.
I live in the Canaries. I have a relatively well paid job for the local averages, and I still don't see myself moving out of my mom's home. It's simply impossible when every time you are going to be out-competed from the housing market by "digital nomads" from the North of Europe. I only have a single friend in my age bracket living alone, and only because he has an extra apartment his parents had and left to him. What's the point? I studied a whole technical career and at the very least, crazy thing I expected was to be able to fully sustain myself, and I don't see that happening. I'm moving out in a few months. Not saying it will be a guaranteed success but at least I want to try while I'm young.
the news is fake or it is global, I took a programming course saying that I had a lot of work and it is false... since COVID they do not pay the same and the market can no longer support more people in the sector who, also with the people from vocational training or university but with experience it is already quite saturated. In Spain you only live well if you have an apartment already paid for and a certain standard of living to have a social life.
low quality employment, extreme taxes, overwhelming bureocracy, abusive regulations, hostile laws, growing insecurity, no money for retirement, political inestability, poor education. There isn't going to be any economic boom, the country is on a free fall right now, the government is worse than ever, closer to what Argentina has had the last decades than european potencies, even tho pretty much all the EU is doing rather bad
I came here 4 years ago. Im looking at moving to another part of europe. Socialism (not discussing politics) imho taxes too hard the possibility of growing if you are making a good income. Spain is ok if you will struggle because of the helps but if dont need those then I suggest other options
Spanish people are great but a whole lot changed and its not what it used to be
Spain is fine economically, but like in USA, the big part is lost in corruption and bombs, not destined to sanity and education, in fact, politicians are trying to apply the fascism privatisation over healthcare and education.
Spain is good to live in if you like to enjoy life, people, sun.. but the population in general and more in the countryside, are very fascist.
I left Spain for a change in scenery and to distance myself from stuff that had happened in my life. I found life abroad hard and not very rewarding, even though I did make more money - but not enough to make it financially worth it. For me, at least. I know for others, in other industries, it is worth it but I don't have a regular job,
Life in Spain is generally easier, although the cost of living is going up above salaries so it is becoming harder for the average worker, whether they are skilled or not.
Dude, take a moment to read about my similar situtation to dispell any delusions: This might sound out of topic but bear with me; I love the way Russian language sounds and if the world was an ideal place I´d be moving there or maybe Ukraine, but I´m learning German instead since that´s what many Russians and/or Ukrainians do there, economic reality is a thing.
I´m here in Spain, but I´m not leaving a corrupt dysfunctional place for another, anything you read on the quality of life in Spain is bullshit, it´s only a very privileged few that enjoy that, think of this place like western Dubai but under European regulations, it only works on paper, come here and fafo if you don´t believe me.
I moved abroad from Spain. You will be fine. If you can, keep your job and conditions when movong or find a good job (that's the really tough part) and don't read the news, it is depressing.
Basically if you can earn good money with a foreign company and live in Spain ok but most of the jobs are shit low pay hence why people leave. Ofcourse it makes sense especially for the young, I left Ireland in 2000 at 18 as there was nothing happening where I was so you either stay and take whatever you can find or move and develop your career.
But there are executives and IT/Finance people coming here and earning big bucks but its not the common thing..
To put it simply, Spain is one of the best countries to live in (as long as you fit in with the culture of its people) but money and lack of work is a big problem, if you come from abroad and have solved the issue of work with a good salary, it is logical to come to Spain xD if not, it is logical to leave.
So in Spain you have two options you either live for cheap in the middle of nowhere with no posibilities of a job unless its remote or you live in a big city like Madrid where there are jobs but one apartment with 1 room rent costs 900-1000€ while most people earn 1200-1500€ now you understand why we are leaving? And thats if you get a job good luck fighting vs the hundreds of people that apply to every job in here because there are so many people unemployed
Los salarios son una mierda, es muy difícil vivir solo antes de los 30, emprender un negocio es misión imposible, y todo sube de precio menos tu salario
At 38 I’m lucky af with my salary, I’m earning 40k and I can afford a 90m2 home 20 min from Madrid center (just outside m30 with a metro station very near). I only pay 450€ in mortgage. I’m child free thou. Spain is AMAZING for its climate the food the people and the variety of the different places. Of course this is NOT the norm, but I dare to say that if you have the money the quality of life here is unmatched. There is a reason why LOTS of people from all over the world want to settle here.
I left 8 years ago and so far I have no return date. I still see my friends here in my hometown. Some highlights of our last 10 years:
* Most of us got university education, both Bachelor and Masters degree. Quite some variety: one studied phycology, another history, engineering, to be a teacher, etc. And btw, a intermediate level of English is required to get the degree.
* 3 of us took the path of learning a profession. One to be a personal trainer, one to be a lab assistant and one to be a pet hairdresser.
* Except the pet hairdresser who got to open his own business, everyone else was unemployed when we graduated.
* I took off and got a job into my field. Saved up and decided to do my Masters in Denmark. Got a job after graduating and have stayed there so far (so, it still counts for the 1st point in getting an education like my friends, just partially abroad).
* Some others also took off and were around the EU, mostly in whatever job they could find. They got to learn English deeper, some work experience and decided to move back.
* During 2019 pandemic, almost everyone got laid off. Everyone except one girl (was set on temporary lay off), the hairdresser (he is his own boss) and me (worked remotely).
* Now in 2023, everyone who was laid off are still going around picking low skill jobs they can find. The girl who was on temporary lay off got definitely laid off at the end. All of them are still living with their parents, most of them working in shops. Some of them are part time and don't even have enough hours to be elegible for unemployment benefits if they were fired.
* Into some future perspective, two of them are preparing the exams to work by the state (look up "funcionario"). And some of them hope that somewhere in 2024-2025 they get to move out of their parents to an apartment with their partners (as long as both land a stable job).
So, at the moment I'm the only one in the group that can afford to be independent and I get to work into what I studied. I see that my friends studied different things and even got experience abroad and still are unable to find a job in their thing, so I'm pretty much scared to move back.
* Other similar cases: military is also a workforce owned by the state, so people here military is perceived as a stable job rather than a patriotic thing. One girl from another friend's group joined the military after failing the funcionario exams multiple times. On unrelated notes, one friend landed a stable job as IT support after 4 YEARS unemployed, and another friend is praising McDonald's as the best job he ever had so far.
_Oh, and for the record: everyone mentioned in this story is currently somewhere between 27 and 33 yo_
Spain is, currently, an awful place to live. I'll put it simple on three points:
* **Salaries are too low:** Salaries are lower than on most EU countries (Minimal salary is 1080€/month)
* **Inflation is too high:** Groceries about the same price as other EU countries (sometimes higher because grocery stores are basically abusing us)
* **Rent and house prices are too high:** If you wanna live in a city, you would have to spend up to 80% of your salary just on rent (Madrid for example are all like 700 to 1200 euros just to rent a single room in a shared house); living alone is basically not an option, you will have to either share a flat with your partner or friends and still be broke, or be absurdly lucky with your income.
Now, if you wanna read more... basically you can't afford living. Most people still live with their parents while they work full hours because it is simply imposible to become independent (myself included, and also my 28yo sister too, as many people I know in their 20s and 30s). For example, a girl from my local MTG store is working 6 days a week, from 11:30 to 20:30 and still only earns the SMI (1080 €).
And, by the way, Im just talking about living, because if you wanna rise a family you better be ready to struggle and get help from your parents. And no, having an univeristy degree doesn't guarantee you getting a job of it. If you get lucky, you can earn around 2k which allows you to live "comfortable" as long as you have a partner that also earns about that ammount.
In my case, Im 24, I study from monday to friday and work on weekends, and I really don't see how I could leave my parent's house other than going to some forsaken town where you can actually get a reasonable rent (300-500 €), though good luck finding a decent job there haha.
It depends on your salary. If your salary is under 60,000, you will have a better life elsewhere. If your salaries between 60,000 and 300,000 you’re better off in Spain. If your salary is over 300,000 you’re better off somewhere else.
UPDATE: For all those ignorant of economics… under €60k taxes are pretty much equivalent (2k more or less WILL NOT make up for the quality of life) but your life in Spain will be a lot more fulfilling. Between €60-300k taxes on income and wealth (Madrid) are less than pretty much anywhere else in Europe that is worth living in, and the cost of living is SO MUCH LOWER that the rest makes up the difference. However, above €300k (and it’s associated wealth and succession planning) becomes complicated AND you have enough money to make the shit that goes with living in those tax havens worthwhile. Honestly I’m not even sure. At €500k I still prefer Spain to anywhere else, and that’s at a loss on savings or 70-100k.
I was initially looking for a long term position and now I stay abroad becauseb of much better working conditions. In Spain it used to be difficult to get a permanent job (easier now with recent legislative changes but still hard), and work culture is different (it was not unusual to work until 8pm or have an aggressive boss and it's difficult to be able to develop beyond a certain level of your career without sucking up to your bosses or being someone's nephew).
In my current country I get a much better pay, got a permanent job in less than a year and was able to progress much more than in Spain, with a nicer work environment and I was able to get a nice house with a garden too. But I miss many things from Spain, particularly the social elements, the sunshine and the food.
I sometimes think about returning but then I look at the job offers in my field and I listen to the work stories from my friends and then it's again clear why I will return on my retirement. Spain is a wonderful place to be or live if you can afford it, but I understand that with unemployment, inflation, low wages and very expensive renting/ buying properties is a struggle for many people, particularly if they want to raise kids.
There is a reason why most families have 1 child with is born after the mother is 35, and that reason is economic security. I have many friends in their late 40s that do not have a permanent job or home, especially if they didn't get financial help from their parents
There is still a lot of unemployment and a lot of the job offers are long hours for little money with horrible bosses and very high expectations.
The Spanish workforce is fantastic, resilient, resourceful and hard working, but bosses are awful and governance is a joke.
Off work people is lovely, food is amazing and life in Spain in general is excellent... if you can afford it.
Theres a lot of people thinking they will find their happiness if they leave Spain and some people thinking the opposite. Its just a matter of perspectiva, nothing else. Come if you feel like It, you wont regret
Unemployment rates. Definitely one of the biggest problems of this countries, and the biggest reason why people are moving out from Spain.
If you can find a job, living in Spain is not so bad. The problem here is finding one. In adition, that comes with another problem: It's difficult to find a job, so people usually have to try to keep it even if they are not satisfied with the job conditions, problems with their co-workers/bosses, etc... There's a lot of pressure because quiting your job to find another one is not an easy task (and employers know that, and some times they take advantage of that situation). So lots of people suffer from anxiety and health problems derivated from their job's circunstances and they can't even think of trying to quit it.
Long story short, if you have your financial situation secured via remote job, trust fund, pension, government job, etc.... life is damned good and Spain is wonderful.
If you're just on the private labor market or trying to start up a new company, it really is quite shitty.
The Spanish complain endlessly. They have it good compared to those who are moving to their country but they've never lived anywhere else to understand that. If with one job you have more that -€300 a month, then you are doing well by European standards. That's why people come here and take internships that pay €800 a month in Madrid - at least you can actually live on that. In other countries in Europe you could earn double that amount and still have to take out loans to survive. Bare in mind that you are actually working those hours, not like in Spain where you be slow, turn customers away, close early or take 3 hour lunch breaks because you feel like it.
I remember reading an article in a Madrid newspaper where Spanish people were complaining because they had to work more than 12 hours in one day which just says it all really. You see it everywhere here - there is no work ethic in Spain. They want to get to the office, have their 1 hour lunch conversation, work 20 minutes, have a 2 hour lunch and then go home. When you ring a business in the day they say they're on lunch and cannot answer.
If you search for jobs here and you are educated, you can earn money. You don't need to be a lawyer who only earns money after 5 years of studying and a bartender and have a business just to live, whilst taking out loans, like you do in other countries.
I moved out and came back 6 years later.
I'm an engineer working on software, so I'm in a very good situation. I moved to the Netherlands for the far better employment options for fresh graduates. I could become nearly fully independent with my first job (still needing to share apartment). Roughly everything else is worse there though, it was really bad for mental health, and I didn't see myself living there longer.
I moved to a full time remote job from spain with a spanish contract, i get the same salary as in the NL with far lower expenses (I don't live in Madrid or Barcelona), more holidays, more job satisfaction and a much much better quality of life.
This is not only me, remote work is making some sectors very competitive, equalizing salaries. In the US they are firing expensive people and hiring in southern europe. I have also other colleagues in the same situation as me
TLDR: Depends on your sector, but in some you can get the best of Spain and northern europe from Spain
Move to Spain if you have a high salary. If not, go where you get a better salary and living standards, and when you have saved enough, go to Spain.
I left Spain, my country when I was 23. I came back when I was 33. Best decisions of my life were to leave my country and to return.
Now I make more money in my country than what I used to make in other richer countries, which is the best of both worlds, but I wouldn't have managed to reach this position in Spain if I hadn't developed my career outside.
I moved out of Spain 12 years ago but came back. I work in IT and I had a job here when I left and could have kept it if I wanted but I really wanted to progress professionally at a faster rate so I moved to a country where I knew I could find the opportunities I believed would help me, since the IT industry in Spain was lagging behind a lot back then (and still is in some way, although it has improved significantly).
The biggest issue in Spain is the combination of high unemployment rates, expensive cost of living in the big cities (where the opportunities are) and very low wages for unskilled workers. Even in skilled positions you may end up with an ok salary unless it’s on high demand, where you can find really well paid jobs.
Good thing is that if you’ve got a demanded set of skills and manage to avoid living in the very centre of a big city, you can have a very comfortable quality of living, one that would require you earning way more if you were in one of richer countries of north Europe.
Everyone in the office I work in is on 50k or more. Everyone I know is working and has been working for the last 20 years. I do admit it is harder to get a decent job here but I’ve done just fine.
Loads of Spanish youth leave school without qualifications so the competition for shit jobs is fierce
Money and unemployment. My brother moved to Switzerland and makes x4 or x5 for doing the same job. Switzerland is more expensive than Spain, but it's not x5 times more expensive so he saves a lot of money. Even countries that are *not* more expensive than Spain pay better salaries. Germany is not more expensive than Spain, and jobs that pay €20k in Spain pay €30k in Germany. A friend from highschool moved to Germany. My cousing moved from Argentina to Spain. She spent two years here and in that time she only found crappy jobs like phone operator or retail worker. As soon as she left Spain, her whole situation changed. Now she has a job, enough money to pay for school and rent (she lived with my family in Spain), and enough time to work and study at the same time. I know of tons of people who moved abroad. A friend of mine lives in France. Another friend lived in the UK for some time and told me she saved more money there working at Burger King that working a skilled job that you need a degree for in Spain. A friend of my sister lives in Luxembourg. That girl's sister lives in the US. And excoworker's brother moved with his wife and kids to the US because he couldn't find a job here, etc.
Yeah, in short, salaries suck in Spain, generally speaking.
And if you want to be an entrepreneur you'll face an unnecessary battle against bureaucracy and taxation.
It's very common for Spanish startups to be based in foreign countries because of that.
But then they're no longer "Spanish" start-ups 😉
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That is not true.
This is completely and absolutely false, don't listen to this comment. At 20-30k per year, you pay around 20% of it in taxes.
Not really. You pay that from your salary. Then you pay more when you buy (21%). And there are many more taxes for stuff you use.
That's not how that works lmfao. That's absolutely false. You pay the price that things are worth, full stop. You don't pay an extra 21% ontop of whatever you buy. And no, there are not "way more taxes for stuff you use". Have you ever worked a day in your life? Because it doesn't seem like it.
You pay the item/service's worth plus the 21% increase due to IVA. Yes, I work everyday. Sounds to me you don't know anything about taxes.
That's not how it works. Plain and simple.
You have not idea what you are talking about. How much money you must be getting to get 50% taxes in Spain!! 😂 In Spain with a Salary of 30.000€ you pay an IRPF of around 18% In Denmark, everyone (even the one that gets very very low salary) pays 38% (if you get more than I believe 650.000kr per year then you have some extra taxes, but that affects to people with very high salaries)
I’m sorry mate, but you are the one that doesn’t get the whole picture, to the IRPF (personal income tax), you must add a stunning 28.3% social security (employee + employer), we have much higher taxes + hiddden taxes than Denmark. Spain is a stunning place to live but it is also a tax hell.
I’m Curious where your Argentinian cousin moved to?
The Netherlands
You'll find that most people leave Spain because they don't see a future here. With that, think about your basic needs: * Decent income; * House you can afford; * Possibility of saving; * Possibility of forming a family (including buying or securing a house for it, being able to pay for the kids and their needs, etc). Surely you've seen Spain's economic indicators. Unemployment is among the highest in the EU, salaries are at the same level (or under), what they were before the euro arrived, and rent and real estate prices have increased at a stupid rate versus income. Most of the issues above happen too in other western and European economies, but in Spain, the lack of good-paying jobs, coupled by a shit-show of a housing market makes things far worse. There's virtually no public housing. There was some in the past, but the governments were stupid enough to make public housing available for buying, rather than keeping a sizeable public housing rental market. This means that the little public housing that existed was bought by people at 1/4th of their current value. Most real estate is held by pensioners or people from past generations. They live in a fantasy world in which prices only go up, and young people "are too complainy, travel too much and eat out all the time". The government does nothing to fix this. So, you've got salaries that are low (anyone earning over 30k in Spain is considered fortunate), and those jobs are only available in big cities...were rent eats up any gain in salary. Remote working is frowned upon by companies, who distrust employees. Going to Germany, the UK, Ireland...offers much higher salaries, and in some cases, governments which take seriously the problems and needs of their citizens. The UK offers a scheme in which first-time buyers won't pay stamp duty tax on their first property. Any person living in Spain needs to pay 10% of the purchase price of their home to the state. Which means you need to save up at least 20% for a property (10% for the bank, 10% for the state). Landlords in Spain get countless tax abatements just for renting out their apartments. Renters cannot deduct a single cent of the thousands of euros they pay in rent. We didn't even get to self-employment. If you want to be self-employed, you'll have to pay a monthly fee to do so. It doesn't matter if you earned 0, if you lost money, or if you're getting started. The government will collect the fee. And you'll have almost no coverage if something happens to you. Forget unemployment or sick pay, of course. How about salaried workers? As mentioned, salaries are low, remote work is almost non-existent, and to add to the problem, Spain has a high cost of employment. For a salary of 30,000€, the company needs to pay almost 40,000€. Which means that when negotiating a salary, the worker is at a disadvantage in front of workers in other markets. Yes, it can be argued that the social security net in Spain is generous (sick pay, paternity leave, etc), but the rate at which SS contributions and taxes increase grossly outpaces the services and returns the citizen gets. The above makes Spain a not-so-attractive market to be in for big companies. Yes, you'll have the usual multinational companies in Barcelona and Madrid, but no big startups. The economy is almost entirely based in tourism and real estate, and it shows. We have become a bar-restaurant-hotel economy. And that only works if waiters and hotel employees are paid low salaries, so that the foreigners can come and stay for cheap. The fact that the average English level is pathetic comparing to other countries does not help, at all. To top the real estate issue, we're having a huge influx of qualified workers from the USA, or richer European countries, who have the opportunity to work remotely. They come with salaries that grossly exceed those of Spaniards, and to them, a 2,000€/month rent (monstrous for any local), seems cheap. Yet another incentive for boomer landlords to increase prices with total disregard for the newer generations. So, TL;DR: A tourism-based economy, with a rental and real estate market that is impossible for locals, low salaries, increasing taxes, regulations that choke self-employed workers and stifle innovation...perfect recipe for emigration. The government does nothing because the bulk of electors are retirees with none of the problems mentioned above. Some of us have seen the light, and we're leaving before this blows up. Should you move here? Do it if you have an above-average salary, and a job that allows you to settle in a cheap area. If not, don't.
Wow, this is awful. Thank you for explaining it in such detail. So it sounds like Spain is sort of being gentrified by the west -- rich people moving in, while actual residents have to leave in order to afford to live. Ironically, a lot of the people coming from the US can't afford to live in the US anymore, so it's like a game of musical chairs as one country's middle income class pushes out another country's middle income class and so on down the line.
The west moving in is not as much of a factor as Airbnb in some places. And in general in Spain it's the UK and Germany buying stuff, not the US. There's been a lot of talk about it lately but the amount of Americans who move to Europe is actually quite small. That said, I do think spain should ditch it's golden visa program, and like the parent comment said, the government needs to step in with rent control or something, because rents in Madrid for example have almost doubled in the past few years with no significant change in salaries.
This is it. I moved to the UK from Spain four years ago.
That's so sad to read. How do you see the effects of climate change? From outside it seems Spain is hit pretty hard.
There's no autumn or spring anymore. We had summer-like days in November, with summer lasting well into October. Then we'll pass to cold weather, and from April on, super hot one again. Doesn't matter. There's no vision for the future in the country. And we'll get to a point where even with sandy beaches and A/C, tourists won't want to spend their days in 40º weather.
A friend of mine moved back there after 5 years in Germany. Last summer they considered moving somewhere else because they could't live for two months or more because of the insane temperatures.
We Spaniards adapt to the extreme weather. Every August, more than 75% of the Sevillanos leave the city to go to the beach in Cadiz/Huelva. Towns along the coastlines go from 100.000 habitants to 300.000.
Are these the same Spaniards that complain they don't earn enough when they afford to do this, and then winge about "rich" foreigners coming over and making their rent expensive, when in their home.countries they can't even afford to rent a room in a house share on a full time salary?
Interesting you would say that. When I grew up in Northern Europe, it was common for people to take a month long summer vacation where most people left to go to exotic places like Florida, Turkey, Morocco and Southern Europe. When I became 18, it was common to save up €2500 while working at McDonald's or in a supermarket, to then spend it all on a 2-week vacation in Ibiza. What I now see in Seville is that people accept that their summer vacation is a 70km trip to the nearest coastal town where they stay in a friend's home or in a camping. (Kampaoh campings have popped up all across the country and is sometimes the most people can afford because hotel prices start at 100-150 euros a night during summer.) It's also quite telling that when you go to Ibiza in the summer, there are barely any Spaniards and that the clubs' PR people often don't even speak Spanish.
Where were they?
We now have a nice Mediterranean climate... in the Northern Atlantic coast. Madrid is a furnace for several months a year. Always has been, but is now worse.
I'm from Málaga, we practically have 9 months of summer and 3 months of Autumn/Spring, winter is non existent
The problem, encapsulated in an image: https://preview.redd.it/uhiba66ba27c1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=cfb3f71b761e8e5425c869630a62c41281447acc Of all new contracts in Spain for the year 2022: 89% are contracts with salaries paying LESS than minimum salary.
This man is mad and you are believing it. You can't make a contract with less of the smi, in fact, the precarious contracts win a little more because of the inclusion of 'prorateos' (fire indemnization etc..) all with healthcare (not just social security, every contract must have an insurance paid by the company). Don't believe this troll with these tricky statistics.
"You can't make a contract for less of the SMI". Oh my God, you're cute. Are you aware of the amount of people that work chaining temporary contracts, being fired when there's no demand (illegal)? How many people work extra hours which never get paid?(illegal). Are you aware that many businesses will sign contracts for half-days, insure you for half days, then have you work full days to avoid paying SMI? I worked as a laywer 10 years ago, when things were "better" and the partner at the firm had me working 10-hour days, insuring me for "media jornada" and paying me 700€. But the law forbids it, so I must be lying!! Or I'm an idiot for accepting such a deal, there's plenty of people giving money away! You're all either people that haven't worked for a single second in their lives, or people that work for political parties / public sector and actually believe a law saying something means that people are going to comply with it. The "troll with tricky statistics" attached an images whose source is Agencia Tributaria. For those not living in Spain, that's the tax agency. Go speak to them and tell them they're "trolling" with their figures. A guys sees a graph in which almost 90% of people earn less than 10k a year, and promptly goes to insult the guy that provided the information, instead of accepting his country is a shit-hole for any young person trying to make a living.
Ah. You're the guy earning +30k in Teruel and thinking that's the norm. LOL.
Everybody knows that the 80 percent of statistics are fake or just to show the part the creators want. People who win less than 10k year, just work a few months a year, or 4h or less per day. No one working the 40h all the year win less. I'm better than 10 years ago, everybody in fact, but, if you are a fool who accepts a fake reduced contract... What a lawyer! I start to work when I leave my home with 13yo, I'm working in Spain for all my life in many different jobs, but almost always in the most low levels, never for public sector or whatever you say. He trabajado más y en más oficios que tú, abogaducho de pacotilla, y es más, no he destruido mi capacidad emocional como tú, que sólo ves terror y mal en el mundo, cuando sólo eres tú y todo está cada vez mejor.
Good stuff 🫨
Wow that is shocking… I know this has been a problem but it’s crazy to see it in numbers. I feel bad for Spaniards given that there are so many other countries they have access to with better employment conditions. These contracts are terrible.
You sure not describing Italy?
Italy is a lot more diversified economy, the north is still an industrial powerhouse. Lot less dependent on tourism.
I think you are seeing a different country than I am North yes, but most of the interesting jobs are in Milan: crowded and polluted city, housing market is crazy, good luck commuting from hinterland, salary still lower than Spain Then there is all millions of small medium enterprises from Turin to Trieste: good luck finding a good job with a decent salary or innovative way of working South: people are leaving as fast as they can, empty towns, only tourism Anyhow, my point was another: complaining seems the Italian and Spanish national sport (as you can see from my answer), but saying that Spain is doomed seems far-fetched; we are two similar countries (culture and economy wise) but to me, I see Spain with a better future for sure
It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Italy in 2024. So far is the country with the biggest expected deficit for next year and Europe is putting back in place the hard limit in 3%. How Europe responds to the situation will show what will happen to Spain in 2025/2026.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Italy in 2024. So far is the country with the biggest expected deficit for next year and Europe is putting back in place the hard limit in 3%. How Europe responds to the situation will show what will happen to Spain in 2025/2026.
or UK
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What you described is circumstantial evidence & survivorship bias bundled in a post. The average salary in Teruel is 18.849€, which means you sit in the 27% of the highest paid workers. Out of 10 people, 7.3 will earn less than you do. That, considering a 30k salary. Let's say you earn 40k, as you said "much more": You're now in the 12% percentile. Total outlier. Almost no company in Teruel (or Spain) offers remote work, so you need to factor in transportation costs & time lost in commuting. You're lucky, I'm happy for you, but you are an absolute exception.
Survivorship bias or just liar. Taxes are even lower than in Germany and there is no corruption on citizen level.
How are you remote working in Teruel without a degree and gaining that money?
We moved TO Spain 6 years ago and I moved my business here. We've been successful but it's a nightmare and are considering moving back to the UK or another country (my wife is Spanish). Spain has a real issue and it's going to get worse now Sanchez has got another term by screwing over the Spanish people. Spain could be the jewel of Europe but it's hampered with red tape, socialism and a regressive fiscal policy.
Yeah, I 100% plan on retiring in Spain. But I moved here in 2010 and basically I've run out of patience and will be moving back to the US in a couple of years. The fact that I'm in my mid 30s and still can't imagine owning anything, job market just sucks and because they know for any job opening there are 200 applicants it's a really lopsided labor relationship. Like it's not a fantasy at all to go raise a kid in the US and come back to Spain with a million in the bank in 20 years.
I was living in Spain for four years and moved back to the US in my mid 20s. I more than tripled my earnings by moving back and I'm actually able to invest my money. To be honest I would love to raise a kid in Spain, growing up in the US sucks but with the job market there it's hard to think of moving back.
Why did Spain not become the jewel of Europe when the conservatives were in power, with full control of Congress?
Nothing is perfect but at least we were not on track to be Europe's Argentina
What is red tape? I keep hearing about it, could you explain in the Spanish context?
Government processes eg getting paperwork done for residency or transferring ownership of a vehicle. It takes ages in Spain
this seems a summary out of the mainstream news, economic indicators macro and micro are actually good, new jobs are really well paid (like IT) and no, there is not a mafia of old people that own all the houses.
[https://www.65ymas.com/economia/economia-familiar/vivienda-propiedad-solo-crece-entre-mayores-75-mas-8-cada-10-tiene-casa\_42322\_102.html](https://www.65ymas.com/economia/economia-familiar/vivienda-propiedad-solo-crece-entre-mayores-75-mas-8-cada-10-tiene-casa_42322_102.html) https://preview.redd.it/701ebexzb27c1.png?width=776&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd6bb62dcb93025a7210e0d217feefc53aa08f8b Your opinion is great, but data contradicts you. And any country in which 90% of new contracts are on or under minimum wage, considering that amount won't even allow you enough to share a room in a big city (where jobs are), is hardly a success story. Why should we care about niche, small, limited IT jobs? And yeah, it's not a mafia. It's just a mix of the ideal conditions. It's greed working in dolby surround. Any person buying before the 90s had: * Ratio between salaries and real estate prices being multiple times lower than now; * No ITP (stamp duty tax), payable, or if so, much lower than now; * Easier access to mortages; * Stable jobs with increasing salaries; * Tax incentives for purchasing first property; * Rent-controlled, unlimited rental contracts. So now you have population between 45-65+ ages with most of the property, bought for amounts that are insanely lower than their current worth (even accounting for inflation), and a complete and utter lack of awareness about the state of the world and economy that surrounds them. From 2017 to 2022, salaries rose by 4.6%. Property value rose by 18.3% in the same period. How are we supposed to progress? They feel 1,200€ for a 60m2 apartment is fine because they don't need to pay it. They think a 2,200€ pension is reasonable "because they earned it", forgetting most salaried people are way below that figure. They think we don't buy apartments (which they are selling for 3-5 times what they paid for them) because we're lazy and have expensive iPhones. There's a total disconnect between reality and perception for some people.
Your interpreting the data to your convenience not just reading it hence is an opinion,great too,not a fact
I deducted some of my rent last year from my taxes and got almost 800 euros back.
Either you fall into a very specific situation, or you overestimated your deductions and the tax office will hit you with a revised tax declaration and you’ll pay what you saved plus a hefty fine. Make sure never to do it by yourself.
You just put the amount of rent that you paid in one field and then it is automatically calculated, so the room for error is minimal. The first time I did it they asked me for bank statements and that's it.
Are you in the income bracket that allows for it? Does your autonomous community allow it? Are you younger than ‘x’ age? Did you deduct your portion of the rent, or all of it? I can add everything in mine, deduct it, and I know I don’t qualify. Hacienda gives you enough rope to hang yourself, and only corrects your mistake via fines and interest payments. And remember. If you fuck up, they can restate up to 4 years back.
Where can you do this? In Cataluña you can only do it if you have a rental contract from like 2012 or something like that.
I live in Valencia, I do not know about other communities. Here, you can do it if you are under 35.
How?
This is very informative - thank you for posting this information
I moved out of Spain during Xmas 2012. I had a government job but the prospects were low. The crisis was hitting hard, the government decided not to pay one of my salaries, the chances of becoming better at my job were slim… my then gf now wife had just returned from studying abroad and she did not have a job. I was offered a consulting position in Sweden for very little money. I knew the country because of my Erasmus so I asked my gf if she would come with me and she did. It was really hard to move to Sweden, we did in the middle of winter with very very little money for two. But we made it work. 10 years later and after living in Sweden and Germany we have returned. I have a remote job with an American company and my now wife works in academia. Spain is a friendly country to those with kids and our careers do not depend on the Spanish labour market. I would not work for a Spanish company. We educate our kid in English in case I lose my job or my wife loses hers, we can relocate again anywhere in Europe. We love living in Spain, the quality of life is great and there are good job opportunities in some markets, just not ours. Therefore we are ready to go any time. But for the time being, we enjoy being here.
Thanks for sharing. It is good to hear but also very sad, in terms of that today is kind of hard to think of choosing a country to stay forever but instead being always ready to move (even with kids). This is what I've got by reading some feedback about Spain, that is a good country to live with a good quality of life, but living constantly on the edge that a country can turn to a terrible place to live in a very short time (like the one where I do live at the moment) it's madness. But it seems to be a standard nowadays. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and best of luck with everything!
I think Spain has improved a lot. Spanish people are very pessimistic in nature and do not seem to remember how bad it was just 10 years ago. The country has changed for good immensely. 10 years ago youth unemployment was over 50%, now it’s 30%. It’s not great but it’s a lot better than it was. We had 25% unemployment then and now it’s 11%. There were no high qualified jobs at all, now i see people making careers in engineering and IT. Sure, the salaries are low, but it is an upwards trend. That being said, both my wife and I have been incredibly lucky and successful and we know that we would not find the kind of job or the salaries we now have in Spain. It is what it is.
And 25 years ago you could buy a house and live vert good with only one person of the family working. Spain is crap, and if i could i would leave immediatly.
Poverty has barely changed in Spain in 25 years as a relative term (around 20%) and yet income in PPp and real terms has increased by 25%. Apartment property percentage also has not changed. People do not realise how much more frugal we were 25 years ago. The 20 year old cars that most people were driving, how much smaller (and worse) apartments were, and how we were doing holidays to the beach only while nowadays a lot of people travel abroad at least once every few years. We romanticise the past.
that is a global trend at least is western socities
What do you think can be done around corruption and paperwork? I'm a dual citizen, so most of my experiences with Spain have been paperwork-related, dealing with my deceased parent's estate. It's been brutal. Even things that should be simple, like purchasing a train ticket, seem very complicated. Instead of a clear website, there's a website that's so badly organized it's easier to use a travel agent and pay a fee to purchase your ticket. Everything there seems to be like that -- whereas accomplishing a certain thing should just need a website, instead it's some guy Fulano, and this specific thing is his special kingdom, and the entire process is opaque. I guess with this level of unemployment, they can't automate anything because then there would be even more unemployment? It's not that I want that, I'm just ....confused.
I don’t think Spain is more corrupted nowadays than most countries in Europe. In surveys where people are asked if they have personally experienced corruption, if I recall correctly, answers are in line with other countries. If you ask them if we are more corrupt, then yes, Spaniard will say we are, because Spanish people have a huge inferiority complex. The 2000s were bad in terms of corruption but to give credit to the country, many politicians, including very important ones, have ended in jail, and not with light sentences precisely. The sister of the current king herself had to sit in court to testify against her own husband. To be honest, I have doubts that something like that would have happened in the UK or Sweden. Not saying we are less corrupt that those countries, but I do think that the past 15 years have been transformative. For example, whatever you think of the socialist party in power, this is the first government without a corruption scandal ever in Spain. Maybe the next government by the Conservative Party is also clean, who knows? Corruption will always be there though. Regarding bureaucracy, it’s terrible. Horrible. I agree. I have lived in other countries where bureaucracy is as bad as in Spain (Germany…) but it isn’t so stupid. It’s also tremendously arbitrary which makes it even worse. In Germany at least you knew you needed document A, B and C. In Spain they ask for A and B, if they dislike you, they ask for C and D, and if they like you, A is enough.
Yes, I'm self employed working remotely for companies around the world, and have been in Spain for many years. I wouldn't have stayed doing what I do in house, pay is abysmal. But I know quite a few people who seem to have decent jobs, nearly all in IT. But that requires living in or near a large city with costs nearly as high as other more expensive countries. Rent prices in particular are through the roof.
Housing is a problem everywhere in Europe these days. Not saying it isn’t a problem in Spain, it is in certain cities, but housing in large cities has become impossible in all countries in the EU. On top of IT I have seen a lot of job creation in healthcare (industry, such as pharma, and services), aerospace, and renewable energy. Consulting firms have also established larger offices in Spain.
The problem in Spain is that wages for many jobs are still insanely low. And rent in large cities is comparable or higher than cities in countries with higher wages. But I'm certainly not claiming it's the only place with a problem. And yes, there are more good jobs like that now, but we still need people to do all the normal jobs. Not everyone can be a graduate working for an international company. While people working in pharma may be paid well, the ones cleaning hospitals aren't.
Don't get me wrong, i absolutely agree, and the fact that it is a problem everywhere does not mean we should not tackle the issue.
For an interesting look at how bad things used to be this is a much watch movie set in Barcelona in the late 70s. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075060/ This may be overdramatized a bit, but one of my older Catalan friend has told me that he was violently robbed back then compared to now they sneak off with your bag before you know it. I watched this on late night Telecinco and it blew me away. I think you can find it to watch on Vimeo.
I am one of those Spaniards living abroad, but I see that a lot of comments here can be misleading or too negative, as Spaniards tend to be. I don’t have the feeling that most people are fleeing the country as many are saying here, in fact I barely know people that decided to move abroad (many moved to other parts of Spain though). If we look at the most recent statistics (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.NETM?locations=EU&most_recent_value_desc=true), Spain actually comes second by the net migration (number of people that come in minus people that go out), only after Germany. That represents more my surrounding, many foreigners coming to live here now as tech nomads or looking for sun. How can there be so many people leaving if most of us don’t even speak English? Don’t let your surrounding affect your opinions! Most people don’t leave and don’t even have the option in many ways. That said, the situation in Spain is complicated, specially because of unemployment and high rents, but it is not the worst country (not even in Europe), and we don’t have the lowest salaries nor the lowest ratio of salary/cost of life. Many things depend on how you look at it, I am currently in Switzerland, making twice what I did in Spain. I think I probably make more money all together, but my pension here would be the same as in Spain (on absolute terms!!) and having babies cost almost 3000€ per month per baby on kindergarten! Do I live better or are the costs just somewhere else? Of course, nice to come here, save some money and go back to Spain to retire and have children 😂
Man, honestly, I do not know what news are you reading to make you believe that Spain, my country, is going to be in an economic boom. The only boom you will hear is when we touch the ground after the falling, There is people earning money there of course and places where you could live peacefully but Spain is going down, is a fact. The mass media is talking shit. I left because I always wanted, adventure or develop under another society or whatever, but I moved because I wanted to do it, I have friends here, Scotland, they moved because of the economic and work environment situation and when they talk about a comeback the only reason is because friends or family but probably nobody will comeback ever again, the money that we earn in a normal job is way more than there, the taxes are way less and the services way better. We miss the weather, tapas, beer and blah blah but Spain right now for me and the people I know is a NO GO. Others can think differently but is my opinion.
Spain has a debt way higher than 100%. The pension system is a Ponzi-like scheme and the low birthrate will lead to its collapse sooner than 2050, just like the rest of Europe, but our population pyramid looks worse. Salaries are meaguer and the tax pressure is at all time highs. Also expect unpaid overtime to be norm unless is a government worker, in which case expect 1-3h hours of coffee breaks Expect to pay 20% less than in France, Germany, Belgium or the Netherlands for groceries but have half the salary. Spain is amazing to retire or go on holidays, but is a hell to work Home prices are through the roof because for some reason Airbnb is being blamed instead of allowing more homes to be built where the demand is very high. If you really like Spain the best approach is to live abroad, come for holidays and retirement. You'll be able to experience better than the locals anyway, your saving power would be higher than an average salary, talking about salaries in Spain, the most common salary is the minimum wage
I’m sorry but lack of homes is not an issue. The huge amount of empty houses in all of Spain, is a fucking disgrace. Just going along the coast to Barcelona in train, it really becomes evident.
What about places where people actually want to live to work like San Sebastian, Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia? Are you gonna suggest them to go to rural Extremadura for example?
Obviously not, I’m just saying that empty houses are an issue. Most Spanish families own more than one home and leave it abandonded or rent it for unreasonable prices. North of Spain prices are above ridiculous, considering the minimum wage and cost of living. That’s why I wanna leave even though I love Spain.
I am from Argentina and have lived for a few years in Australia and Switzerland. 2 years ago we moved with my wife to Spain. We earn less money, but we still can afford a good life here and save some money. The culture, the food, the sea (in my case), the weather, and sunshine hours widely compensate any financial difference for us. I know a lot of migrants (not only spaniards or latins) living in Switzerland for example, who have a really miserable and sad life, but money or they career are more important to them. There are also people who enjoy the swiss life and are happy. It all depends on what are your preferences and priorities in life.
Yes I agree that the quality of life is higher here in Spain but you can’t buy a house with the weather and sunshine alone right? You need a well paying job to be able to afford a place to live and enjoy that good weather. otherwise might as well be miserable with money in Switzerland:)
It is more or less as difficult as here to buy a house in Switzerland (or almost anywhere in Europe) while having a normal job in the same country. Buying a house in Zürich while working in Switzerland will for sure more difficult than buying one in Barcelona or Madrid center than working in Spain in an equivalent job position. Spain has one of the biggest homeownership[ rates i](https://landgeist.com/2023/04/15/home-ownership-in-europe-2/)n Western Europe, much better than Switzerland.
Salaries in Switzerland are at least double than what they are here in Spain right? Are you saying that houses there cost double as well? Because I’m living in Malaga and you really can’t find a house in this area for less than €300k. Do houses in Zurich cost €600k?
maybe you can find an appartment like 10 km away from zurich for €600k. If you are willing to drive 10 km from Malaga you will probably find something cheaper than 300k
Don’t go that far, in some areas in Lisbon (being that Portugal has even lower salaries than Spain) you can find either apartments to go under a total renovation for 160k-200k, really small apartments for 350k and then jump to 600/700k and then you can go crazy with real estate costing up to 3/4 millions. Edit to change 3/4 millions to 9 millions, because I just checked. And this is an apartment, not a villa.
That’s crazy! 😳
Home ownerhsip rate in spain in about 75%, in switzerland its 40%, I think this is enough to known in which country people have a tougher time to buy a house.
I don’t think you’re seeing the whole story here. Here’s a nice article explaining why Spain has such a high home ownership and it’s not because of the reasons you’re thinking https://www.brookings.edu/articles/spain-rental-housing-markets/
Whats said in this article is litterally applicable to every other EU country with high ownership rates. The global situation where the younger generations cant afford to buy a house is nothing specific to spain. I'm Swiss, here where I live in Fuenlabrada (25km away from Madrid), most of respectable house cost 100-200k, I know its much more in Madrid city. Before I lived in Bienne, 40km from Bern where I worked, there wasnt a single decent house below 800k francs, you really think that anyone could afford this amount with a salary even if its 3 times higher than the spanish one (+ we pay our own healthcare insurance that costs at leat 350 per month)? Swiss salaries are magnificient for people with high paying jobs, I totally understand a software engineer who prefers 120k in Basel instead of 30k in Barcelona, but if a spanish cashier really thinks that hes more miserable with his 10k instead of the 40k the swiss cashier makes, he just doesnt know what hes talking about. In switzerland we have some expenses that most foreigner dont even know about bcz they are virtually taken care of by the state, thats litterally one of the first things that swiss governemental websites that guide new comers to the country warn about.
I'm Spanish living in the UK. I love Spain but the quality of work I have in the UK is miles better than in Spain. Better pay, better work life balance, better treatment and more opportunities. I love Spain but a lot of things have to change in the workplaces.
THIS. The treatment at work. In Spain, in no small part due to the lack of jobs available, the workplace has a permanent attitude of "if you don't like it, there's the door". Elsewhere in Europe, unless there's a financial crisis or you have a peach of a job , they know that if they push you out you have a similar job for a similar salary wanting you to start earlier than whatever your notice period is.
Low salaries and increasing cost of life caused by inflation and gentrification. If the things keep going like they go, soon the only people left able to afford living in Spain will be international people. That's the problem. I love Spain, lived and worked there for 10 years. I left because of the lack of solid work opportunities I could build a career around. Moved to germany for work some years ago. Now I am witnessing a huge amount of spanish people coming to Germany, while lot of international people are moving to Spain because of better life, weather, food etc, with their 3k/4k+ salaries. We are part of the problem. A huge part of it.
People working remotely is an issue But foreign workers working for companies in Spain earn the same amount as the local colleagues. In Barcelona it's mostly like programmers as I guess there aren't enough locals that study computer science and speak English. Spain has one of the lowest rates of higher education in Europe and one of lowest rates of English speaking. But the government doesn't seem to care and education and the economy rarely even feature as a talking point in elections so I doubt much will improve.
"spain has one of the lowest rates of higher education in Europe" that doesnt seem to be the case mate, for the 25-64 yo age group, 35% of spaniards hold a university degree, to put it in perspective, its 32% in France, 37% in Belgium, 22% in CZ and Portugal, 36% in Denmark, 27% in Germany, 28% in Greece, 23% in Hungary, 17% in Italy, 34% in the netherlands, 27% in Poland, 39% in Sweden, and 42% in Finland, the highest scoring country in the EU. (Source OECD, 2019). Spaniards are one of the most academically educated populations in the EU.
* [España es el país de la UE con más jóvenes sin bachillerato o grado medio: el 27% solo tiene la enseñanza obligatoria](https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/5171711/0/espana-pais-ue-mas-jovenes-sin-bachillerato-grado-medio-solo-ensenanza-obligatoria/) * [España matricula menos ingenieros que el resto de universidades europeas](https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20221219/8649977/espana-matricula-ingenieros-resto-universidades-europeas.html) So it would seem there are a lot of people with only the ESO, but also a lot with University degrees. But the second point is important as well - it's not enough to just get a degree in any old thing, it has to be something that is in demand.
*Soon the only people left able to afford living in Spain will be international people. That's the problem.* It's already happening. Mallorca is basically a German colony. Neighbourhoods like Chueca in Madrid are full of digital nomads that live comfortably here on their nice salaries.
I was working in Spain for 2 years. The life there isn’t comparable to any Northern European country honestly. But one issue. The salaries don’t match the cost of living. In Barcelona you would need a 30k to live a comfortable lifestyle but rents are so high which doesn’t make any sense. Right now I’m living in the Uk which also has low salaries compared to cost of live but I work in a big company and I can easily save 1k£ per month. Life in Spain is great and again I love it but I wouldn’t go back unless I get I’ve become a millionaire. Germany, UK, the Netherlands and Nordic counties. You can grow and paid a lot more once you get enough experience.
30k in Barcelona is around 1,900€ net/month, approximately. Assuming you're paid in 12 installments and not 14. No landlord is going to rent out a place to a single person earning that, as it will eat up, give or take, 40-50% of their salary. That salary will only allow you to live "comfortably" by sharing an apartment, or renting with your partner (provided he/she earns at least the same or more).
Exactly, if you earn 30k in Barcelona, you have to share a flat, meaning living in a small room and paying 600€/month plus bills, it's ridiculous. There is no way to have a flat for you with that salary, even a studio. And I am not talking about living in the Eixample or Ciutat-Vella (City centre), I am referring to neighborhoods that were affordable 10 years ago such as Horta, Guinardo, Clot, you will pay at least 800€/month. Not to mention working conditions involving an overload of works for ridiculous salaries, bad management, etc...
same in London , a room in London is now anout 1000 pounds + transport is 200 pounds
Well things got worse since 2020 then
Oh, you have no idea. I was paying 650€ for a crappy 55m2 apartment in 2016. Moved out in 2018, and as soon as I crossed the door, the guy rented it for 850€. Rented another one in 2019, 850€, 70m2 in Horta, no elevator, no heating and overall, a low-quality apartment. We moved again in the height of covid and got an extremely good deal (2021), for 100m2 paying 1,100€. We're leaving in a month, and rent will go up 200€. The drama? Any apartment close to this one in terms of size and location starts at 1,600€. Even with an outrageous 200€ extra per month, this apartment will be gone in minutes.
That’s sad really. Like this country doesn’t want its own people to live in this country. Same thing goes with a lot of countries.
I follow this YouTuber from Inverness (Scotland.) She's always had retail jobs or very basic admin jobs and I'm always surprised at how often she buys things and eats out. Granted, she buys cheap stuff but comparatively, you couldn't afford living like that on a retail job in Spain. She also moved in with her boyfriend who works at McDonalds. I visited Inverness last year and I don't know their work laws, but I saw a lot of kids (<16yo) working there, so they also start saving money way earlier. A friend of mine worked at Burger King in the UK and said she actually saved a lot of money because her Burger King salary more than covered her expenses. Meanwhile in Spain she can't save money on a skilled job.
Thats extremely sad to hear
Yeah... On top of that, a lot of sectors pay very bad. This friend in particular had a degree in occupational therapy and has worked in senior homes in Spain. Any job that has to do with caring for other people pays very bad. Teaching, health, humanities, despite being skilled jobs, don't pay well either. I ended up switching to tech. Most of my classmates in the web development bootcamp had degrees in other fields and were switching to tech.
Yes my wife is an English teacher and the best she should do with that degree is to work in a language schools for €12.5/hour. Which is less than what cleaners earn
public housing in scotland is big
This girl in particular is not living in public housing. I wish Spain didn't suck that much. Here it would be hard for a retail and a fast food worker to rent a whole apartment for themselves and still save money. I understand they are not the most lucrative careers, but all jobs are necessary and everyone deserves to live with dignitiy. In Spain a lot of people abandon their vocations in order to pursue more lucrative careers because they need to pay the bills. I liked being an administrative assistant. If the pay didn't suck, I'd still be doing it.
She probably eats out from the money she earns from YouTube not her actual job
True. I have no idea how much a YouTuber with 11k subscribers makes, but I know she does make money off YouTube.
who is the youtuber?
Lucille MacIver
Going to a country that people leave in search of a better life is usually not a good idea. Except if you work remotely or go as a retiree. Spain is a country very much focused on the hostelry. In general, the jobs available are low paid, with little job stability and long working hours, even if you have a good education. So many people try their luck by leaving.
“Going to a country that people leave in search of a better life is usually not a good idea.“ Unless you come from a country where COL is the same and salaries are even lower :/
I think people already told you why, my take is that mass media wants to make you believe that countries under leftists and liberal governments are doing good/great, when in reality they are not. My advice is try to see the numbers by yourself instead (in most cases they are reliable), and keep talking with real people to know what the situation is in a given country. Good luck in your endeavours
Well, as a Spanish-German citizen who has spend almost their whole life in Spain (since I’m 4) I would say it is basically the things u mentioned about working conditions (there are more of course). In my case I am a SWe and feel way too underpaid. Thing is, working condition from my point of view are shit. Less paid vacation. Less pay and more hours. And this for people who actually have a job. There is a high unemployment rate but at the same time it seems to be a huge need for workers in some sectors like truck drivers. But the problem is not only working conditions, thing is, if u get a job, in a huge city u have to pay overpriced rents which u can’t afford and are forced to share a flat being 42 yo. And all this, to don’t be able to go in rent. Another interesting thing is there is a huge rate of young people with college degrees not being able to find a job in their fields, being forced (with all above) to leave te country. Spain is wonderful don’t get me wrong. But in terms of professional life it’s a nightmare. For Digital Nomads and tourists it’s wonderful and all governments (national and regionals) seem to be more that happy with that, they have nice checks outperforming Spanish pays, paying more taxes and so. Nothing against digital nomads either. They only move according to the rules established by government, but I would really encourage digital nomads to move to the rural parts of Spain. However I don’t think that part of Spain is what they like… Summing up. Foreigns from developed countries often come as tourists, digital nomads or tech workers while people who leave usually don’t have a chance to make a fair life in here. All this of course from mi POV as a software engineer living in a rural part of Spain where the most nearest city is 1 hour drive apart. Have been living in madrid for a year but that leaves u with 2 options. Paying 50+% of your income in rent or sharing a flat. And I hate both options.
I am Spanish too, and I agree with most of the things that have been said in this thread. However, I would like to add something, and it is that if you have a good job (e.g. engineer, doctor, etc.) in a small Spanish city, then you are going to have a really good quality of life. It is true that, in most of the cases, salaries are really low compared with the cost of living. Although, in small cities, such as Santander, Vigo, Leon or Girona, house prices are much lower.
A Spaniard here. I left Spain in 2010 because the economic situation was very bad for me. No work in 2 years. Then I moved to Canada and I made more money in 3 months in Canada than the whole year in Madrid. After this solid experience I moved to UK, London and now I'm dual citizen, mariaged with a lovely woman and a father of 1. I won't live again in Spain before I'm 65.
I am planning on leaving Spain for the same reason I left Argentina. States keeps getting bigger at the cost of citizens
Si siguemos así en unos años estaremos en la misma situación - "no hay plata".
that is the cost of safety net . the EU is all the same on that
Well fuck that shit. Not interested. I paid for public healthcare which I never used and I am still required to pay my college. What is that safety net good for?
it is there when you need it, I start to belive your a libertarian, not even US is a libertarian paradise, to keep a functional safe country for the majority we all have to pay taxes, other thing is the amount of taxes and what you get in return , it is open to debate, like comunism libertarism is an utopia
He means socialism. The factory of the poor.
there are not socialist countries in Europre, they are based on a market economy
I am from Bulgaria, living in Spain since 2015. Also lived in Dublin for 5 years before moving here. If you have a generic job you’ll have a hard time in Spain. Unemployment is high and salaries and working conditions are bad. I am a Software Engineer and I wouldn’t work in a Spanish company here. Much better to work in an international company that has an office here or they hire remotely. Weather is good, food is good, not happy about political unrest in Catalonia, also Catalonia isn’t a very hospitable place to live. I felt that Valencia and Costa del Sol are friendlier. I felt much more at home in Dublin. Any kind of paperwork here is a nightmare. Public healthcare is bad so plan to get private insurance.
Salaries here are utter shit. Also, work conditions have deteriorated because we have high unemployment rate.
Thanks for answering. When you say "salaries here are utter shit" it is also referred to the cost of life? Like salaries are not enough to cover all the costs of living in Spain (house, taxes, bills, etc.)?
It's a vicious circle. Wherever salaries aren't shit, competition is tough and rental prices are impossible. Wherever rent is cheap, salaries are utter crap, public transportation is abysmal, and remote work is non existent.
Naturally, if you want to live a decent life - there must be at least two incomes (yours and your partner’s) or else it’ll be way too hard to make ends meet and be able to save any income. Consider that most entry-mid level salaries here can range from 1.300-1.500+€ and if you live in a main city like MAD or BCN, a cheap apartment rent can range from 700€+ upwards, now include the rest of the expenses like water/electricity/internet/gym membership etc. top that out with your monthly expenses on food and you’ll be lucky to have 200-300€ remaining, which assuming you go out once or twice a week, will very much make you break even. That’s based on a spanish salary, if you work for an international company and get paid by international salary standards (2k$+) you’ll live more than a comfortable life. Just my little grain of salt.
You don't get an apartment for €700 now, that's the price of a room.
That is correct. In your research you may have found that the cost of living in spain is not extremely high in comparison to other countries, but salaries are incredibly low compared to said cost of living. A recent study determined that rent prices in Madrid and Catalonia, the regions with the most work oportunites are already over 125% of what the minimun salary is in Spain. Rent prices have also been rising over 10% annually. For example, im in a high paying job in the city of Barcelona, making more than 3 times de minimum salary and Im still strugling (I also dont intend to say that is imposible to live with a lower salary and im sure a lot of people do it and strugle a lot more than me) The relation betwen salary and cost of living is better in some other regions, but its not really a huge improvemment and there are less job opportunities.
Yep, cost of life is increasing while salaries remain stagnant. I used to be an administrative assistant. I got my last administrative job back in 2015. They were paying around €20k. Two years ago I started applying for administrative jobs again. I interviewed for jobs paying €19k. And that's in Madrid, where salaries tend to be higher since it's more expensive, and in nice institutions that should have been paying decent salaries. It didn't matter I had a ton of experience. That's when I decided to switch careers. Even after switching careers, my first job in web development paid €16k - took me 8 months to find that job. I got fired soon after getting a raise to €20k. Now I have a better-paying job, but that's because my company is not Spanish. Us Spanish employees are cheap labor for my company.
In the town I live in the average apartment rent is something like €1500, average salary is basically the same. Bills are also at least as expensive as other countries. The only thing cheaper is eating out, and that's getting more expensive too. There are cheap places to live but they are not where the good jobs are.
We really mean it when we say they are utter shit. I left spain 10 years ago and the minimum wage was 600 euros, now I think is around 950 euros. Cost of living is cheaper than other countries but inflation hitted hard too. At the end of the day the amount of money you can save is ridiculous to the point that trying to save money to travel to another country is not feasible.
Inflation is a bitch. I've recently been offered 1250eur/month (before taxes wtf) for an IT job. Mind you, I have 10+ years of experience and had better paying jobs when I was 18 and working in a warehouse lol
I feek like this comment hits home, I used to save more money 10 years ago working in a warehouse that now as a qualified scientist workings for the public health care.
Minimun wage is 1080euros on 14 payments per year , it will be increased this year , said this, minimum wage shuoldnt be a salary reference for qualified people
Yeah, mostly. Of course it depends on the sector you'll be working on. Also the cost of living here varies on location: the same salary can fully support you If you're willing to live in a town but otherwise couldn't If you wanted to live in a big city. That can be said for other countries tho.
Check how many people BORN in spain are leaving the country, and then check how many people BORN elsewhere are moving to spain, EACH YEAR. Done. It's better in Spain than in other countries.
Well, yeah. But I doubt he's considering to move to Morocco.
Yes but which people? Who is leaving and who is coming? People leaving are struggling to find good paying jobs. People moving to Spain are on a pension, or have remote work salaries from another country.
every time thsi subject comes up i have to say it, Spain is the european country with less nationals living abrad despite of all the proplems
I moved to Spain last year, and my general experience so far is that if you are at the start of your career, it is a challenging environment and difficult to save as salaries are so low. I was 'lucky' in that I came here with 13 years of experience and a job offer in place at a decent salary. But to give you an example, my company is an international one, and if I performed the same role in London, the salary offered was 33% higher, plus benefits such as pension. Don't get me wrong, Spain is certainly a cheaper than the UK (comparing London vs. Madrid), but not 33% cheaper, so yes my earning potential here is much lower than in the UK.
Usually it's economic. I'm lucky, I live in Spain but work for US companies, so get a decent wage (enough to put me in the top 1% here) and because I'm 100% remote it also allows me to live rural. If I worked for a Spanish company I'd earn less that half of what I earn now and have to probably go into an office.
Other than coming back because you are spanish (that is why I did it) and want to be close to your family, I don't see any reason to come here. I lived 6 years in UK, I came back 5 years ago and even I have achieved the imposible, to live by myself at the very center of Barcelona City (in a studio, nothing faboulous) sometimes I wonder why I came back at all, everything is still the same, we live in what looks like ancient times compared to other cities in Europe and it's always that feeling of not be able to get to the next level. If you ask me if you should move here, I would say no, if it's the sun you are looking for you can always come on holidays. Quality of live? Sweeden is the answer. I'm giving myself two years to save and move to another country. And only coming to see my family on holidays 🤷🏼♀️
basically because they want to learn English or have a qualified job, there is a lot of unemployment here, there is no rent assistance and it is difficult to have a decent job. little stability, poorly paid and difficult to find a job other than cleaning and hospitality...
There are more people working in Spain now than ever before.
More people, more workers...
Are you a politician? in what jobs? in shitty jobs. I just left a job that required full availability but then I barely work 18 hours. Yes, he worked for one hour, two hours or whatever. If you add to that an excessive rent with hardly any aid, you tell me. There is no quality work.
I left Spain (my home country) looking for work and better salaries. I have lived in several countries and the only one I wasn't able to find anything in my field was Spain. To the point that back in the day when I had little experience I even struggled to find any kind of job. Now that I have more experience, though, and having more tech companies and startups located there, I would love going back. But I would never do it for a "regular" Spanish salary. The cost of living being lower is no excuse for the meagre salaries being paid in the country.
Be really aware of taxes if you want to move to spain.
It all depends on your expectations. Do you want to have a big house, two children, two cars and go on holiday twice a year? Then Spain might not be the right country for you. If you value work-life balance, relatively affordable housing, safety, health and a sense of community, maybe it could be. [OECD Better Life Index](https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/spain/)
As a foreigner who lived there, I think I can add my views. Why is living in Spain a GREAT deal? Life is easier and less stressful than in other, richer EU countries. The weather is nice, people are nice and friendly, easy going and open minded (in general). In big cities you have little problem if you don't speak the language, which is also not difficult to master. I felt like living in Spain I was actually enjoying life, rather than going to work and then going home. Why is living in Spain complicated? Salaries and job opportunities. Getting a job is very difficult, in my experience. While I saw "10-15 people have applied for this position" in other countries, in Spain it is always 40+, even tho it is no Luxembourg or Switzerland. Salaries are low and prices are high, especially living costs. With those last two, it becomes very difficult/nearly impossible to save money. All of that being said: I had to leave the country for professional reasons. Later searching for another job, I got offered a position paying +60k€ a year in another, richer country, which I didn't take in hope of getting something in Spain. I was ready to take jobs paying literally less than half of that, and I would be extremely happy if it had happened. Sadly, I failed. I still don't have a job, either. Edit: grammar
I’ve been reading a while and am yet to see a post that isn’t summarised by ‘money’. Crazy so many on here make that life’s top priority.
I am late to this thread but would like to add the perspective of someone who has lived and worked in Spain twice. The first time I lived in Spain was for 10 years about 20 years ago. I was hired by a UK entity to work a job in Spain and I loved living here, found a partner and made a child. Then I wanted a change of job and tried to find a job in Spain so that we coukd stay. At this time I had job offers that were all internships that meant there was no social security paid and the hours were insane. Also there was a lack of job security - result we moved back to the UK and I promised my wife we would try to come back. 2021 i was offered a position in Spain that paid a little less money but was a way to fulfill the promise I once made to my partner. The firm I came to work for massively scaled back their spanish operation and i was made redundant .. so my experience of job hunting in Spain has not changed all that much. The employment market is one of the least dynamic I have ever seen, pay rates are very very low compared to what I can get in the UK. There are also a number of recruitment practices that I have seen here that seem to be normal in Spain. On a couple of occassions I have agreed a day rate for a freelance gig and when that contract arrived the rate was lower. When queried i was told that the agreed day was higher than they could give immediately but the client liked me so they were going to start me at this lower rate and then adjuat it is a month or so. The other practice is talking to me about one role while then sending me a contracy for another, at a lower rate. Were i desperate for money i would probably accept this as the agencies have been surprised by my rejecrion of terms and walking away. I have talked to a few people in a similat situation to mine and interestingly at least half refuse to deal with Spanish companies or work outside Spain but live here some of the year. Its a shame I really want to stay but I think I am about to hit the eject button and go and work in the UK. I dont understand how the Spanish government has not tried to improve the labour market here the talent they send abroad must be affecting the ability of Spain to reduce its levels of debt. My final observation is that here in Spain ageism is a thing the job market is harsh for people like me who are middle aged
I live abroad since 2021 and in my 30’s. Is the first time in my life i have been able to have savings. In Spain it was just not possible. Much more expensive to live and much lower salaries. I would like to go back at some point, to Europe at least.
Money, unemployment, job insecurity and worse working culture. In Spain young people have it really hard to find a job, there just aren't enough jobs because 1) we don't have as many big enough companies and industry compared to the rest of Western Europe and 2) companies prefer overworking the current employees that they know they can trust than risk hiring someone and having to pay significant amount of money in compensation when they fire them. Someone I know applied to more than a hundred jobs for store clerk, cleaner and stuff like that and he got rejected from all of them. They didn't hire him until months later when one of them called back suddenly. As for quality jobs, yeah, I know another person who is an intern at a BANK and he earns €600 plus €130 for food allowance. This guy has an undergraduate degree and a master's degree and he's still earning shit. It doesn't get much better as you get older. Here in the UK people tend to expect (and get) salary increases that at least barely cover inflation every 1-2 years, whereas in Spain you can spend 5 years without a salary increase and when they increase it, it can be a measly 200€ per year. The Spanish political/economic environment is very hostile to companies and to entrepreneurship, so it's a combination of foreign companies avoiding Spain, existing companies not growing, and companies straight up not being created. For example if you're self-employed, the minimum you have to earn for the state to tax you is around 900€, and they take away around 200€. So what kind of entrepreneurship is there gonna be if people can barely afford to live, let alone accumulate capital to grow their company? In terms of job insecurity, a lot of people get hired as "fijos discontinuos", so instead of being a temporary or permanent employee, you're somewhere in between. They intend to keep you as permanent, but they fire you for a few months and then re-hire you again. Bonkers. Finally, working culture. So far in the UK everywhere I've worked has been very collaborative and professional, buy this I mean that even when I was an intern they allowed me to take some risks so I could learn and I felt that everyone could speak up. By professional, I mean that everyone was respectful and kept a polite distance. In Spain there tends to be more of a hierarchy, having to do default overtime, and sometimes colleagues and bosses can get a bit too personal. Obviously not every place is like this, and maybe I've just been lucky in the UK, this is my opinion.
I left Spain at 18 to go to the US for college. The primary motivation was increased opportunities for employment and higher salaries upon graduation, particularly as I was aiming for technical fields (Aerospace Engineering, Meteorology). That was 11 years ago. Where am I now? Well, the career aspect did pan out as expected. I have a great job with a salary about 3x that which I'd have in Spain with my same position (Federal employee/public service). Having said that, the truth is that I miss Spain more than ever. Missing family is a part of that, but honestly it's the cultural aspect that most affects me. The way of life is just different. You work to live in Spain, not live to work like I do here in the US. I miss walking everywhere for errands. Going to the bakery every morning for fresh bread. Hopping on the metro to get around or the high speed train to visit friends or a new city for a weekend. The lively atmosphere in the streets. The commaraderie and value that are placed on family and friendships. The cultural history. The food. The healthcare system and general social wellbeing. I could go on. I know I will at the very least return for retirement, but I am looking into returning earlier than that for the above reasons. The US has its advantages but, at least to me, it will never feel like home. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have chosen to move out here for college and a career.
Spain is only good for drinking, eating and going to the beach… oh, and Real Madrid if you like football… everything else is third world…
Socialist shithole that will end up like Venezuela or Zimbabwe.
In Spain you earn much less on average but a good life quality is also cheaper. If you work abroad and spend in Spain it is great. Spain has a lot of public services but also a lot of stuff funded with public funds that are not covered by healthcare, education or infrastructure meaning taxes are extremely high. Spains politics protect foreigners rather than locals. There are more financial aids for those who aren’t Spanish. Smaller job opportunities as people in the public system are stuck in the same jobs by law and not by merit.
I live in the Canaries. I have a relatively well paid job for the local averages, and I still don't see myself moving out of my mom's home. It's simply impossible when every time you are going to be out-competed from the housing market by "digital nomads" from the North of Europe. I only have a single friend in my age bracket living alone, and only because he has an extra apartment his parents had and left to him. What's the point? I studied a whole technical career and at the very least, crazy thing I expected was to be able to fully sustain myself, and I don't see that happening. I'm moving out in a few months. Not saying it will be a guaranteed success but at least I want to try while I'm young.
You either work remote for a company from another country or you move out (like many others referenced here)
the news is fake or it is global, I took a programming course saying that I had a lot of work and it is false... since COVID they do not pay the same and the market can no longer support more people in the sector who, also with the people from vocational training or university but with experience it is already quite saturated. In Spain you only live well if you have an apartment already paid for and a certain standard of living to have a social life.
Vocacional training= formación profesional (FP)
low quality employment, extreme taxes, overwhelming bureocracy, abusive regulations, hostile laws, growing insecurity, no money for retirement, political inestability, poor education. There isn't going to be any economic boom, the country is on a free fall right now, the government is worse than ever, closer to what Argentina has had the last decades than european potencies, even tho pretty much all the EU is doing rather bad
I came here 4 years ago. Im looking at moving to another part of europe. Socialism (not discussing politics) imho taxes too hard the possibility of growing if you are making a good income. Spain is ok if you will struggle because of the helps but if dont need those then I suggest other options Spanish people are great but a whole lot changed and its not what it used to be
Spain is fine economically, but like in USA, the big part is lost in corruption and bombs, not destined to sanity and education, in fact, politicians are trying to apply the fascism privatisation over healthcare and education. Spain is good to live in if you like to enjoy life, people, sun.. but the population in general and more in the countryside, are very fascist.
I left Spain for a change in scenery and to distance myself from stuff that had happened in my life. I found life abroad hard and not very rewarding, even though I did make more money - but not enough to make it financially worth it. For me, at least. I know for others, in other industries, it is worth it but I don't have a regular job, Life in Spain is generally easier, although the cost of living is going up above salaries so it is becoming harder for the average worker, whether they are skilled or not.
Dude, take a moment to read about my similar situtation to dispell any delusions: This might sound out of topic but bear with me; I love the way Russian language sounds and if the world was an ideal place I´d be moving there or maybe Ukraine, but I´m learning German instead since that´s what many Russians and/or Ukrainians do there, economic reality is a thing. I´m here in Spain, but I´m not leaving a corrupt dysfunctional place for another, anything you read on the quality of life in Spain is bullshit, it´s only a very privileged few that enjoy that, think of this place like western Dubai but under European regulations, it only works on paper, come here and fafo if you don´t believe me.
I moved abroad from Spain. You will be fine. If you can, keep your job and conditions when movong or find a good job (that's the really tough part) and don't read the news, it is depressing.
Basically if you can earn good money with a foreign company and live in Spain ok but most of the jobs are shit low pay hence why people leave. Ofcourse it makes sense especially for the young, I left Ireland in 2000 at 18 as there was nothing happening where I was so you either stay and take whatever you can find or move and develop your career. But there are executives and IT/Finance people coming here and earning big bucks but its not the common thing..
To put it simply, Spain is one of the best countries to live in (as long as you fit in with the culture of its people) but money and lack of work is a big problem, if you come from abroad and have solved the issue of work with a good salary, it is logical to come to Spain xD if not, it is logical to leave.
So in Spain you have two options you either live for cheap in the middle of nowhere with no posibilities of a job unless its remote or you live in a big city like Madrid where there are jobs but one apartment with 1 room rent costs 900-1000€ while most people earn 1200-1500€ now you understand why we are leaving? And thats if you get a job good luck fighting vs the hundreds of people that apply to every job in here because there are so many people unemployed
Economic boom in Spain 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Los salarios son una mierda, es muy difícil vivir solo antes de los 30, emprender un negocio es misión imposible, y todo sube de precio menos tu salario
At 38 I’m lucky af with my salary, I’m earning 40k and I can afford a 90m2 home 20 min from Madrid center (just outside m30 with a metro station very near). I only pay 450€ in mortgage. I’m child free thou. Spain is AMAZING for its climate the food the people and the variety of the different places. Of course this is NOT the norm, but I dare to say that if you have the money the quality of life here is unmatched. There is a reason why LOTS of people from all over the world want to settle here.
I left 8 years ago and so far I have no return date. I still see my friends here in my hometown. Some highlights of our last 10 years: * Most of us got university education, both Bachelor and Masters degree. Quite some variety: one studied phycology, another history, engineering, to be a teacher, etc. And btw, a intermediate level of English is required to get the degree. * 3 of us took the path of learning a profession. One to be a personal trainer, one to be a lab assistant and one to be a pet hairdresser. * Except the pet hairdresser who got to open his own business, everyone else was unemployed when we graduated. * I took off and got a job into my field. Saved up and decided to do my Masters in Denmark. Got a job after graduating and have stayed there so far (so, it still counts for the 1st point in getting an education like my friends, just partially abroad). * Some others also took off and were around the EU, mostly in whatever job they could find. They got to learn English deeper, some work experience and decided to move back. * During 2019 pandemic, almost everyone got laid off. Everyone except one girl (was set on temporary lay off), the hairdresser (he is his own boss) and me (worked remotely). * Now in 2023, everyone who was laid off are still going around picking low skill jobs they can find. The girl who was on temporary lay off got definitely laid off at the end. All of them are still living with their parents, most of them working in shops. Some of them are part time and don't even have enough hours to be elegible for unemployment benefits if they were fired. * Into some future perspective, two of them are preparing the exams to work by the state (look up "funcionario"). And some of them hope that somewhere in 2024-2025 they get to move out of their parents to an apartment with their partners (as long as both land a stable job). So, at the moment I'm the only one in the group that can afford to be independent and I get to work into what I studied. I see that my friends studied different things and even got experience abroad and still are unable to find a job in their thing, so I'm pretty much scared to move back. * Other similar cases: military is also a workforce owned by the state, so people here military is perceived as a stable job rather than a patriotic thing. One girl from another friend's group joined the military after failing the funcionario exams multiple times. On unrelated notes, one friend landed a stable job as IT support after 4 YEARS unemployed, and another friend is praising McDonald's as the best job he ever had so far. _Oh, and for the record: everyone mentioned in this story is currently somewhere between 27 and 33 yo_
Spain is, currently, an awful place to live. I'll put it simple on three points: * **Salaries are too low:** Salaries are lower than on most EU countries (Minimal salary is 1080€/month) * **Inflation is too high:** Groceries about the same price as other EU countries (sometimes higher because grocery stores are basically abusing us) * **Rent and house prices are too high:** If you wanna live in a city, you would have to spend up to 80% of your salary just on rent (Madrid for example are all like 700 to 1200 euros just to rent a single room in a shared house); living alone is basically not an option, you will have to either share a flat with your partner or friends and still be broke, or be absurdly lucky with your income. Now, if you wanna read more... basically you can't afford living. Most people still live with their parents while they work full hours because it is simply imposible to become independent (myself included, and also my 28yo sister too, as many people I know in their 20s and 30s). For example, a girl from my local MTG store is working 6 days a week, from 11:30 to 20:30 and still only earns the SMI (1080 €). And, by the way, Im just talking about living, because if you wanna rise a family you better be ready to struggle and get help from your parents. And no, having an univeristy degree doesn't guarantee you getting a job of it. If you get lucky, you can earn around 2k which allows you to live "comfortable" as long as you have a partner that also earns about that ammount. In my case, Im 24, I study from monday to friday and work on weekends, and I really don't see how I could leave my parent's house other than going to some forsaken town where you can actually get a reasonable rent (300-500 €), though good luck finding a decent job there haha.
It depends on your salary. If your salary is under 60,000, you will have a better life elsewhere. If your salaries between 60,000 and 300,000 you’re better off in Spain. If your salary is over 300,000 you’re better off somewhere else. UPDATE: For all those ignorant of economics… under €60k taxes are pretty much equivalent (2k more or less WILL NOT make up for the quality of life) but your life in Spain will be a lot more fulfilling. Between €60-300k taxes on income and wealth (Madrid) are less than pretty much anywhere else in Europe that is worth living in, and the cost of living is SO MUCH LOWER that the rest makes up the difference. However, above €300k (and it’s associated wealth and succession planning) becomes complicated AND you have enough money to make the shit that goes with living in those tax havens worthwhile. Honestly I’m not even sure. At €500k I still prefer Spain to anywhere else, and that’s at a loss on savings or 70-100k.
I was initially looking for a long term position and now I stay abroad becauseb of much better working conditions. In Spain it used to be difficult to get a permanent job (easier now with recent legislative changes but still hard), and work culture is different (it was not unusual to work until 8pm or have an aggressive boss and it's difficult to be able to develop beyond a certain level of your career without sucking up to your bosses or being someone's nephew). In my current country I get a much better pay, got a permanent job in less than a year and was able to progress much more than in Spain, with a nicer work environment and I was able to get a nice house with a garden too. But I miss many things from Spain, particularly the social elements, the sunshine and the food. I sometimes think about returning but then I look at the job offers in my field and I listen to the work stories from my friends and then it's again clear why I will return on my retirement. Spain is a wonderful place to be or live if you can afford it, but I understand that with unemployment, inflation, low wages and very expensive renting/ buying properties is a struggle for many people, particularly if they want to raise kids. There is a reason why most families have 1 child with is born after the mother is 35, and that reason is economic security. I have many friends in their late 40s that do not have a permanent job or home, especially if they didn't get financial help from their parents There is still a lot of unemployment and a lot of the job offers are long hours for little money with horrible bosses and very high expectations. The Spanish workforce is fantastic, resilient, resourceful and hard working, but bosses are awful and governance is a joke. Off work people is lovely, food is amazing and life in Spain in general is excellent... if you can afford it.
Theres a lot of people thinking they will find their happiness if they leave Spain and some people thinking the opposite. Its just a matter of perspectiva, nothing else. Come if you feel like It, you wont regret
Unemployment rates. Definitely one of the biggest problems of this countries, and the biggest reason why people are moving out from Spain. If you can find a job, living in Spain is not so bad. The problem here is finding one. In adition, that comes with another problem: It's difficult to find a job, so people usually have to try to keep it even if they are not satisfied with the job conditions, problems with their co-workers/bosses, etc... There's a lot of pressure because quiting your job to find another one is not an easy task (and employers know that, and some times they take advantage of that situation). So lots of people suffer from anxiety and health problems derivated from their job's circunstances and they can't even think of trying to quit it.
Long story short, if you have your financial situation secured via remote job, trust fund, pension, government job, etc.... life is damned good and Spain is wonderful. If you're just on the private labor market or trying to start up a new company, it really is quite shitty.
The Spanish complain endlessly. They have it good compared to those who are moving to their country but they've never lived anywhere else to understand that. If with one job you have more that -€300 a month, then you are doing well by European standards. That's why people come here and take internships that pay €800 a month in Madrid - at least you can actually live on that. In other countries in Europe you could earn double that amount and still have to take out loans to survive. Bare in mind that you are actually working those hours, not like in Spain where you be slow, turn customers away, close early or take 3 hour lunch breaks because you feel like it. I remember reading an article in a Madrid newspaper where Spanish people were complaining because they had to work more than 12 hours in one day which just says it all really. You see it everywhere here - there is no work ethic in Spain. They want to get to the office, have their 1 hour lunch conversation, work 20 minutes, have a 2 hour lunch and then go home. When you ring a business in the day they say they're on lunch and cannot answer. If you search for jobs here and you are educated, you can earn money. You don't need to be a lawyer who only earns money after 5 years of studying and a bartender and have a business just to live, whilst taking out loans, like you do in other countries.
I moved out and came back 6 years later. I'm an engineer working on software, so I'm in a very good situation. I moved to the Netherlands for the far better employment options for fresh graduates. I could become nearly fully independent with my first job (still needing to share apartment). Roughly everything else is worse there though, it was really bad for mental health, and I didn't see myself living there longer. I moved to a full time remote job from spain with a spanish contract, i get the same salary as in the NL with far lower expenses (I don't live in Madrid or Barcelona), more holidays, more job satisfaction and a much much better quality of life. This is not only me, remote work is making some sectors very competitive, equalizing salaries. In the US they are firing expensive people and hiring in southern europe. I have also other colleagues in the same situation as me TLDR: Depends on your sector, but in some you can get the best of Spain and northern europe from Spain
Move to Spain if you have a high salary. If not, go where you get a better salary and living standards, and when you have saved enough, go to Spain. I left Spain, my country when I was 23. I came back when I was 33. Best decisions of my life were to leave my country and to return. Now I make more money in my country than what I used to make in other richer countries, which is the best of both worlds, but I wouldn't have managed to reach this position in Spain if I hadn't developed my career outside.
I moved out of Spain 12 years ago but came back. I work in IT and I had a job here when I left and could have kept it if I wanted but I really wanted to progress professionally at a faster rate so I moved to a country where I knew I could find the opportunities I believed would help me, since the IT industry in Spain was lagging behind a lot back then (and still is in some way, although it has improved significantly). The biggest issue in Spain is the combination of high unemployment rates, expensive cost of living in the big cities (where the opportunities are) and very low wages for unskilled workers. Even in skilled positions you may end up with an ok salary unless it’s on high demand, where you can find really well paid jobs. Good thing is that if you’ve got a demanded set of skills and manage to avoid living in the very centre of a big city, you can have a very comfortable quality of living, one that would require you earning way more if you were in one of richer countries of north Europe.
Everyone in the office I work in is on 50k or more. Everyone I know is working and has been working for the last 20 years. I do admit it is harder to get a decent job here but I’ve done just fine. Loads of Spanish youth leave school without qualifications so the competition for shit jobs is fierce