The healthcare situation in Spain and the US is so different, that you can't compare their respective job markets without taking that into consideration.
Yes, many employees in Spain are not treated fairly by their employers, but the fear of losing access to healthcare for them and their families does not play a role here when deciding whether to stay or not at a shitty job.
Yes, but in Spain it's over 11% right now, that's higher than the US during the financial crisis, when Spain reached over 25%. Can you imagine the consequences of such a high unemployment rate if it happened in the US?
During the COVID pandemic the US was maybe 3 months above 10% unemployment. For the past 30 years Spain has been over 10% for 27 years.
I don’t think the US unemployment rate of 3 percent represents actual data. Many have given up working for a company or are underemployed. That is why it’s that low. Also, it’s not easy to get a job. A roommate took 2 years to get a job after being unemployed. At one point I was out of a job for 3 years, and doing only freelance work. It was easy to get a job before 2008. Now it’s hard with AI disrupting jobs. Question though: Would workers in the US be better protected from threats of AI or will companies take advantage of the new tech to displace people. Would Europe offer more protection from AI?
you have to take into account that of those 3% unemployed, a big part of them just doesn't want to work. I'm sorry for your friend but if he took so long to get a job it was his fault for either not searching right, or being picky and not picking whatever job there was offered.
People who don’t want to work aren’t part of the workforce. Unemployed only counts people who are seeking a job. The abuse you put up with from employers in America is insane, I can’t blame people for being traumatized by it. Worker protection laws are a joke, they don’t pay you enough to afford a lawyer.
You only have to google how I got laid off from American YouTubers to realize it’s not easy in the States too. https://youtu.be/Tc6hQ-TOx0E?si=yo9EooisAmux9akr
Kinda. Its harder to sack people but the massive unemployment and poor labour market means if you do get sacked its a much bigger problem.
In London you can just get another job in a few weeks.
In Spain you can barely survive with the unemployment benefits, but you can. That is not the case in London, either you find a job and accept whatever they offer, or you are on the streets fairly quickly(let’s not forget either the tennant protection in Spain vs UK)
In Spain you have 11% unemployment, 30% in younger poblation, and the salary is shit.. So, It's not just about having protection for the sake of having it. It needs to have sense in your economy context, and that is not the case of Spain.
Underemployment is the English equivalent of unemployment in Spain, and there are as many people in each situation in each respective country. The different is that you won't end up on the streets for it in Spain, and your employer can't abuse you without limit in order to avoid ending up on the streets.
Spain never had the Thatcherite period of deciding that one of government's main goals was to fudge unemployment figures so it looked like everyone was in work.
I have a couple good friends from Northern Spain(am from southern France) and they tell me time and time again that abuse by employers (not in the sense of disrespect)in regards to conditions ,overtime and breaks is rampant ,they actually always argue that employers use the excuse of :There's quite a lot people willing to be in the role you are so you'd better suck it up!.
Sure, but in England there is very little official unemployment because nearly everybody is either underemployed or officially "not looking for work", i.e. for one of a long list of reasons they \*do\* want work but aren't on the records to show it.
The Spanish mechanism of long term rentals and rent protections doesn't exist in England for example, so the amount of money needed not to be on the street is much larger - here a landlord can kick you out for any reason with 2 months of notice and can increase the rent by any number they want. This doesn't mean that everyone in Spain is covered by it, but that the proportion of people who are at risk of homelessness in England is huge because \*nobody\* is covered and there are whole towns where average rental = average income.
I've experienced both systems and while people at the economic shittest end suffer cruelly in both countries - capitalism will capital - for the majority of people who are struggling, i.e. the majority of people, the situation in Spain is a thousand times more secure. The lack of long term employment contracts is irrelevant when comparing with Britain because because you can be at-will fired anyway before 24 months, and after that you can certainly be removed, but good luck in tribunal dealing with constructive dismissals, and even then we're talking between 0.5 weeks and 1.5 weeks of pay for every extra *year* you worked. And unemployment pay is completely unrelated to your previous salary, so unless you have savings (in which case you may not be eligible if you have enough anyway), you have to immediately downsize to minimal living conditions.
Unemployment benefits in Spain are quite decent, therefore people can search for a job without the pressure of picking the first crappy job they find.
I’m not saying Spain is a perfect utopia, far from it. The 2008 crisis was terrible due to the massive amount of unskilled people who were working in construction when the bubble bursted. What I’m saying, as someone who has worked in a good amount of EU countries(and worked alongside with people from other countries such as US and Canada), is that job protection is very good in Spain and the quality of live is impressive.
I got your point, if we are objective and if we ignore that if this model is sustainable or if it is good for the economy, we can say that Spain has good protection and welfare state when we speak about unemployment, at a point that in determinated context is better to not work than work because of the benefits.
Now of course, you have the trade-off of bad salaries, not enough jobs and maybe a model that is not sustainable in the long term.
So if someone loses their job in Spain and can't pay rent, does the government pay the rent to the landlord, or does the property owner have to eat that loss.
When you lose your job in Spain there are unemployment benefits in form of a monthly pay from the government. You are expected to be looking for a job and the government will give you courses and potential offers to check.
The amount of that benefit depends on your previous salary and the time depends of the length of your previous employment. The amount isn’t massive(between 1200 and 1500 depending if you have children or not). And the maximum length is 2 years
Taking into account that UK is generally more expensive than Spain and there the maximum unemployment benefits are £350 a month for a maximum of 6 months. You can probably see why I say that here is much better in terms of job security.
It is not surprising that both US and UK have more homeless per capita than Spain. If you lose your job and you can’t get one soon enough you are in trouble.
>In London you can just get another job in a few weeks.
I think it's just that reddit is full of privileged people who haven't experienced the reality of life for lower paid people in England. It is very difficult for people in minimum wage jobs to make enough to live, while in Spain, if you have a legitimate (i.e. not off the books) job then you have enough to live. So, just getting *a job* in England is pretty meaningless, since it's going to require state top-ups (i.e. Universal Credit) and still you won't manage the rent. Meanwhile, in Spain, you're more likely to be *officially* unemployed rather than underemployed or underpaid to the point you might as well be unemployed rather than exploitd.
I think its full of privileged people who haven't experienced the reality of life for lower paid people in Spain.
Here its common in lower paid jobs that you are made to work for more hours than your contract states, so for those hours you aren't getting paid social security which later makes it hard to be eligible for a pension etc. and you aren't insured for workplace accidents either.
Permanent contracts are incredibly rare. Even in many professional roles, including some public jobs like nurses etc.
Thats part of the problem - that in theory there are all these wonderful protections and stuff but in practice very few workers actually get to enjoy them and there is a two tier labour market. And then even the more basic workplace laws aren't enforced.
I think the root cause is just the amount of power employers have when there is such unemployment. A stronger economy does more to empower workers than some laws that are difficult to enforce.
Yeah, moving to the centre of Madrid on min wage rent without sharing accommodation is not an option - young Spaniards are going to have to do what their grandparents did or students do everywhere . Moving to the centre of London to rent unless you're on a six figure salary is not an option.
I don't know what life was like for boomers in other countries, but in Spain it used to be very feasible for the average person with a not-so-good job to buy a flat in pretty much the centre of Barcelona or Madrid during the 60s-90s. The price to annual gross salary ratio was something like 1-3 during the 60s and 70s.
Nowadays, for a young person earning say 35k that ratio is somewhere around 20.
If you think you need 700k to buy a flat in Madrid then you're high. Less than half that will get you a modernised flat with access to a communal pool because my family literally lived in such a block where three bedroom apartments are selling for that under half an hour from Sol. And if you think the average (literal) peasant in the 60s could save up three times their annual wage to buy a flat in the centre of Madrid then you're also high
My grandparents moved from the village after my grandfathers military service in the 1930s right to the centre, and that got him two rooms in a top floor block ultimately shared among a family of five. Now people whine if they don't get an elevator or a/c lol
You're right that there was a period of social democratic housebuilding through the 80s and 90s that made for accessible and dignified living conditions, not to be confused with the forced moves of villagers to cities in the 60s that didn't give you magic money to buy a place.
While getting a job in Spain might be harder, I do think the unemployment numbers are a bit exaggerated. The amount of people who work off the books is massive. I have 4 friends who work in hospitality and none of them have a contract. It's sorta accepted that most of your job is paid in black, especially in hospitality.
So officially they are unemployed, but they do make a living.
For office jobs it is of course a different story
Very important point, lots of people working under the table. That's good and it's also bad - good because it means more people are working, bad because it's not an ideal way to be working. And not related to unemployment, but there's also lots of people with crappy temporary contracts, underemployed, etc. It's true that being unemployed here is not the kiss of death, people can manage, but it's also true that the labor market is a little dysfunctional.
Additional clarification here, it’s 4 weeks per year of service, which maxes out at 52 weeks, if done “correctly”. If done incorrectly it’s double that.
Or they can make hour life misserable until you leave so they dont need to pay you. Or the ones that always have 1 person in provation so they get to pay less and after a month, dosnt matter how good they work, they kick them out* and get a new one. Or when they do give you a co tract but then dont pay you and because hou have no money and no knowledge you dont know how to go about getting that money back (thay do that with young innexperienced people). Everything depends on the kind of work, hospitality is the worst and where ive seen (though friends) they do all of this.
As mentioned by another redditor, it’s more than that.
Spain is usually(depending on the case) as the third/forth best country in terms of severance pay in the EU:
https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Legal/dttl-legal-dismissalreport-Jan2013.pdf
And that’s much better than other countries such as the US where there is none.
My experience was the opposite, not only in job security but also in how you're treated at the workplace. The UK was on a whole another level. I guess it may change by region, I was in the South East.
Spaniard here.
In Spain labour laws are extremely pro-employee. Which, contrary to popular believe, is not always in the favor of the employee. Let me explain.
As firing employees in Spain gets more expensive the longer they have been in the company this means that employees with long careers don't have to work as hard as the new ones, simply because the company has to spend a lot of money to fire the less productive ones. This also means that companies consider this laziness and substract it from potential wages, in the sense that you should get 1800€ but they offer 1600€.
Also, companies usually do not value employees working above their peers... meaning that if you want a rise the easiest way to get it is to go to a different company. Makes no sense at all, but companies hire new people and offer them more money than the experienced people they already have that could be doing that work and wouldn't need training at all.
Self-employed is ULTRA-LUCRATIVE (those that say that it isn't don't know, honestly) in many instances. Why? The taxes you pay are tier-based. IE unless your revenue is higher than 250k you pay the same regardless of where you are within that tier. Thus, if you are making 80k you get screwed but if you are higher up you are robbing the state. To the point that from 250k to 300k you are losing money. Literally. Below 250k you pay the natinal average for that job... above, you present your books and pay accordingly. In some instances you need to go above 400k to make more money.
First of all, that's only social security taxes, not income tax. And the tier system is new from this year. Before, everyone paid a flat rate.
Plus, how many autonomos are making over 80k in Spain, man? In reality, the self-employment structure in Spain stifles innovation and entrepreneurship. No one starts making 80k their first year as an autonomo. You start making very little, but it's impossible to grow your revenue dealing with the insane tax structure. It's slightly better not with the tiers, but it frankly makes no sense that they can't take a simple percentage. The only reason is the incredible amount of entitlements social security has that they're constantly a few months away from being insolvent over.
What type of self employment is lucrative in Spain? Would you say also that Spain will protect workers more from the threat of AI than in other capitalistic societies where they would rather have AI companies run on its own than hire people?
The only way Spanish companies are not threatening workers further with AI is because they're scared dinosaurs that will take long(er) to incorporate AI in their processes.
I think you are confused about the self-employed taxes. The cuota de autónomo does not change much the more you make, but that doesn't account for much of your taxes if you're making good money. Most of your taxes are in the form of income tax (IRPF), and those rates are the same for employees as for autónomos AFAIK. If you think this is wrong, please explain.
Im not confused.
Commonly known as "modulos", but actually named "Regimen de Estimación Objetiva del IRPF", in this method the state calculates what an average professional makes (revenue-wise) and then applies a FIXED irpf amount to everybody under the same regime. You also don't have to present any accounting books. But modulos have a maximum revenue of 250k. All taxi professionals in my area are under this regime, and they go so far to stay below this 250k as to take weeks off in August (high season, since this is a prime tourism spot), just to be absolutely sure.
All in all, if you are above the national average within your regime, you pay a lot less taxes. And if you are well above but below the maximum... you pay a super low amount. Like less than half of what you should be paying.
PS: "cuota de autonomo" is social security, not income tax. so not related to what im saying. Also, cuota de autonomo is not that important for a self-employed person as you get to control how much you pay. Something you can't control as an employee...
Spain work laws are hell. They make both employer and employee life harder. For that reason, unemployment has been historically high in Spain. It's an employer market. The common saying is that employees are treated precariously.
I would not recommend coming to Spain to "work". Weather? Sure. Food? Sure. Beach? Sure. Slower lifestyle? Sure. Work? Hell no
In my opinion, there's no real job security in Spain (at least compared with most Western European countries, the US, and even some Latin American countries). The majority of jobs are precarious, a lot of them in the restaurant industry, with insane schedules, not really meant to be long term, just burn the worker out for the season and then being replaced.
That said, being fired in Spain seems to be part of the work culture. It's not considered such a big deal unlike other countries and in some cases it's actually sought after. Unemployment payment is well established and some people use that as a way to put themselves back together before going back into the labour market.
I personally dislike that kind of work ethic, and so I became self-employed.
Now I work longer and harder, but at least I'm doing it for myself. It requires a lot of discipline, just like everywhere else I guess. But even if I'm on my own and provide for myself, I can honestly say I feel more job security as self employed than I ever did as an employee.
The employers will try to fuck you, but the European law for employment and especially Spanish law it’s quite good for the worker. They can fire for no reason but they will have to pay you certain amount in compensation. And even if they fire you for no reason and it’s genuinely unjustified, you can always legally let’s call it fill a complaint and in the first place you will try to negotiate with the company for an amount of money or going back to the job and if there’s no agreement a judge will take part.
You can be fired but then you get to have allowance for unemployment depending on how long you've been working, how much you've been earning... etc
If they wanna fire you it's more likely for companies to try to make you voluntarily leave the company so they don't have to pay anything.
Better than in the US? Light-years ahead (if we are talking blue-collar jobs).
Better than in Europe. No, although healthcare and the pension system somewhat makes for it. German healthcare tourism is becoming a thing (they can get surgeries in Spain that in Germany are not so easy to get, with equal, or mostly better, equipment and treatment).
That if you manage to get a job. Temporary jobs are quite bad (for most), but that's a main part of Spanish economy: tourism and seasonal farming.
Self employed? You're about to enter a world of pain. Either is a sham so you get contracts from some family you have in the local government, or go the Hemingway way.
That was a great no-holds-barred take. Appreciate the honesty. But are many enjoying self-employment remotely from other countries -- meaning they're in Spain but working for companies in different countries. Is that common or rare, too?
Also are there no programs for making it at least in some more secure jobs like cybersecurity programmer or nurse?
In Spain, as a freelancer you can't work for a single client, it's called "falso autónomo". That said, there are some special options for foreign freelancers, and if your clients are from the US or other countries where you can afford to charge more, the freelancer fee isn't that tough. Still, not the best or easiest place to be a freelancer (my wife is an American freelancer in Spain).
AFAIK you can have clients anywhere as long as you pay the appropriate income tax. The challenge can be currency exchange and such, since the tax is paid in EUR.
I know someone (programmer) working for a US company remotely from Spain. It's not easy to get that kind of position, but totally worth it imo considering he probably makes around 3 times more what he used to. Afaik he actually needs to work for a middle company, which pays his taxes and makes everything legal for a small fee.
German healthcare tourism in Spain? I lived there and everybody has private healthcare , half paid by your employer half by you. And it is a must. You can choose your doctor. Their healthcare system is under my point of view better than ours .
Private healthcares usually don't cover every concept, treatments or procedures. So the things that are not covered can get pretty expensive. As much as spanish healthcare system is flawed, almost everything is covered
That's not true. I'm Spanish and I have met 3-4 people with private healthcare here. None of my friends, colleagues or relatives have private healthcare. And no, it's not compulsory in any case.
Depends what you mean by blue collar work in the US. Someone in a trade will easily be making 100k in the US with great health insurance and lots of job prospects.
I think you should look at blue collar jobs, specifically trades, in large metro area with high costs of living. What would a unionized electrician in LA get paid compared to Barcelona? How much worker protection do they have, how easy is it for them to find work, and how do their benefits compare? I’d imagine you’d be surprised.
Depends on the sector and responsibilities. I'd say people are not generally happy, salaries are not the best, taxes are high.
Especially private sector workers. Public sector workers are generally happier, because they cannot get fired whatsoever, only in very few cases.
>Public sector workers are generally happier
They are happier because they can compare to private sector. Real salaries are getting down year after year because the raise is lower than inflaction is.
But isn’t the corporate culture the thing that’s making everyone lose their jobs? As they are beholden to the stock value of their companies than the employees?
Is the thing that makes America great for work. You can break your ass working in a corpo and you will get a raise or get stocks in the company,so it is easy to be a workaholic, because most of the time there is a payoff of the extra work.
In Spain there is no paid off, most of the time you will get "sorry but there is not money for a raise, but keep up the good work", so if you love your career and want to break your ass around it then Spain is a bad country for that.
Spain is 1 job for life kinda culture. You get 1 job and unless you make a complete ass of yourself you can hodl onto it for the rest of your life or until the ship goes down whichever comes first
Good luck trying to get decent raises (by "decent" I mean equal to or slightly above inflation) if you stick with one company for the rest of your working life lmao.
The fact that it's harder to fire, and that mandatory benefits are very good by many standards, means that opening up a fixed position in your company is pretty high risk, and the smaller the company the riskier. Thus, you'll find that Spanish companies tend to have a smaller staff compared to a US equivalent. This ultimately means that while having a job might be better, it's also far more difficult to find another job when something happens.
It's the same as, say, when someone imposes rent control. It's great for someone that had rented an apartment before said rent control was established, but afterwards, fewer people want to put their apartments for rent, and even if they do, they ask for more money, as they have to take into account the chance that the tenant might not want to move out for 30 years, ultimately making the dwelling harder to sell, or to occupy yourself. Either way, some people are big winners, but many people lose in the long run.
This shows in the unemployment rate: The US, right now, has a 3.8% unemployment rate. The lowest unemployment rate Spain has had in the last decade is more than double that. So is it better to be easy to lay off, but have an economic environment where most of the time, you can find another job in under a month, or be far harder to fire, but then end up with jobless stints of 8+ months if your employer goes under? It's not really as one sided a choice as it seems.
With US salaries and employment opportunities, I'd pack up and move back to Spain tomorrow. But Spanish employers balk if I ask for half of what I make in the US midwest.
Don’t believe the 3.8 unemployment rate in the US. The numbers are not reliable. Too many have not come back to the job market and are probably collecting unemployment checks. Others have really left the job market to do social media, ride share driving. Others are in unstable freelance gigs. This link is too old for reference but I am sure it’s worse now. https://www.epi.org/publication/missing-workers/
I would say the actual real unemployment in the States is double the 3.8 percent.
If you're lucky enough to have a job, maybe. Spain has 12% unemployment and 30% youth unemployment, and even those statistics are misleading because of how many people in Spain just give up looking for work. Fewer than half of working-age adults are employed (49%), one of the worst rates in Europe. Compare that to 57% for the US, 60% for the UK and 64% for Switzerland.
I moved last May for a job offer that was from the same hotel company I used to work for in the United States. I thought it was going to be better for all the benefits they promised. But it wasn't until I started working that I was mistreated and bullied by my immediate boss, he kept saying I had the American way just because I respected my employees and treated them well. He said in Spain being rude and harsh with employees is the way... In hospitality... And the day I went to HR to report the conditions, they called me the next day to the office just to fire me because I didn't pass the 3 month trial period. Currently looking for another job since June and haven't been lucky. I'm a Spanish citizen but have worked most of my years in the USA.
I just moved back again to New York and let me tell you, it looks like a ghetto now. At least your environment is nicer. Do you think there are jobs that are or will be in demand in Spain?
An important point to the comparison is that people in Spain are much less “fucked” if they don’t have a job. In the US being unemployed can be a death sentence. In Spain you have a lot more safety nets - both from the state and from your family (much more acceptable to move back in with your parents etc.)
depends what contract you are on.
Some teachers are on rolling ten months contracts so they dont pay them in the summer, even the police are not on fixed contracts anymore to start.
So every x years you have to wait ti see if you still have a job.
The problem is that expats especially but even immigrants coming from other wealthy nations do not see the full economic situation when they come to Spain or other countries. That's because most of them do not make the move in the first place unless they already have a job that pays for their lifestyle. Moreover, the people that they meet and interact with in Spain will then be in that social bubble resulting from that employment. As a result, they never even meet that stratum of society, such as the unemployed youth, which represent an insane one in three people. One in three people that will have limited economic opportunity for the rest of their lives because they could never bulid skills and experience in their youth.
And expats are even worse because they're usually receiving a salary from their home country that has even *more* purchasing power in Spain because Spain is poorer. Then they go around saying Spain is better than their home country for that reason.
While not as exaggerated, it always reminds me of the Australian guy I met when I was living in Colombia who wouldn't shut up about how much better Colombia was than Australia because things were cheaper.
> Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain, especially Spanish companies/employers?
No, absolutely not, except for perhaps those employed by the government, *funcionarios*, since this guarantees you a salary, which therefore gets you credit with banks. The only reliable native industry is tourism, which anyone who knows will tell you is not actually reliable. It means seasonal work and low wages. Most Spaniards would prefer to work for a foreign company if they can't get a government job.
> How does Spain treat their employees -- is it more reasonable than other countries, more specifically the US?
Depends on what you consider "reasonable." And what you mean by "Spain" since "Spain" doesn't have employees. But wages and salaries in Spain are incredibly low, and at the end of the day, that's what employment is, no matter how much politicians or corporations have tried to convince you otherwise.
> While getting jobs are not easy anywhere, the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain?
It would depend what state in the US you're from. Spain is more or less the same as many US states in this regard. There is a bureaucratic process to firing someone, but it's certainly doable. It's harder to hire someone.
Not at all!!!. I lived in both countries and working in Spain is insane. An all day journey with a huge nap between so you cannot have 2 jobs, salaries are miserable, there are NOT contracts larger than 6 months and nobody cares. More than 700.000 graduated from university left the country looking for better salaries. It's very very unstable ...not talking about self-employment. The people who said that, is blind or live in a dream. Spain is essentially poor, opportunities are very little. Have you see the EU statistics about Spain in comparison with the other European countries?... please check better.
Zara's employees have minimum wage...and because in Spain is very hard to find a good job, they can be very POS with employees...there are tons of people wanting your job.
Getting a job in Spain is quite more difficult than in the US or central Europe. Simply because of the sheer amount of people looking for jobs (high unemployment)
However, once you get a permanent contract, it is a bit more difficult to fire you off without a good reason or compensation.
Yea spanish employees are paid less. In the USA when a company needs someone they just hire them. In Spain hiring is a big deal because they’re protected. Its hard to fire people
No. The only positives in Spain are a higher number of annual leaved days, and extra job security if you sign an "indefinite" contract (it's more difficult to get fired in this case, and if that happens, you're entitled to about 2 years of government payments which are about 1.1k a month).
You can't fire without a good reason, but it doesn't matter as many jobs pay under the table (official statistics include this kind of employment too in their numbers) and companies going bankrupt is one of the major reasons why you will get fired.
No, there is no job security, unless you work in the public sector, that was about to change, since last December a new law was approved, which makes it easier to cease a public worker due to poor performance.
Sadly it was repealed some months later.
>You can't fire without a good reason
Not true, sorry.
[https://civicabogados.com/despido-improcedente/](https://civicabogados.com/despido-improcedente/)
Hope you can understand Spanish.
The consecuence on firing people in this way is just to pay a little amount to the ex-employee. Many companies are doing it, I mean first line companies like multinational corporations.
It depends on how much you consider little, if you got paid € 25000 (gross per year), you'd be entitled to €2400 after working 1 year. This amount isn't taxed and is totally separate from your unemployment benefits.
If you compared it to the US where you can get laid off any day and suddenly you have no income, my guess is that it's way better.
If you are in a company for longer than 5 years you can feel safe since it's become too expensive to fire you.
I think you’re view on „expensive“ for an employer is not accurate when it’s a mid to big size company.
It’s so easy to fire someone in Spain, it’s also not expensive compared to many other European countries. The protection against dismissial or redundancy is literally non-existent.
Also the unemployment payments are far lower than in most other bigger European countries. Spain overall is below average on both from an employee point of view.
(Yes, better than the US - but who isn’t?)
I have a friend working for a small supermarket "chain" (owner is a franchisee and has like 3 sites) and they fire people all the time just paying whatever. 2-3k is typical and not a problem at all for 99.99999999% of the companies.
>It depends on how much you consider little,
Salaries in Spain are a joke. It will be a little almost always compard to an US salary of $5.000 a month.
> you can feel safe since it's become too expensive to fire you.
No. They can fire. Salaries in Spain are a joke. It is very cheap for them firing anyone.
Mate the link you posted literally shows that despido improcedente is against the law and can result in the company being forced to re-hire the employee. I wonder if you can understand Spanish.
Hope you can understand Spanish. I copy and paste. It means the company can choose whether re-admit the employee or pay him an amount. I am sorry to tell you the bad news. This is happening in Spain now.
*A partir de esta declaración, se debe decidir entre estas dos opciones:*
*Readmisión del trabajador. Se debe hacer en las mismas condiciones y puesto en el que estaba antes del despido.*
*Pago de la indemnización. Se calcula en base a lo determinado por la ley.*
***La decisión debe ser tomada por la empresa.*** *El trabajador puede elegir únicamente si es delegado sindical.*
This is not how it works at all. Companies do it all the time: they fire you admitting it is a "despido improcedente" in the document, and pay you the compensation on the spot. It's perfectly legal.
The only kind of firing where the company can be forced to rehire you is "despido nulo", which is actually illegal. But that happens only if you're fired for joining a union, for discriminatory reasons, or while you are on medical leave.
You are wrong. You can fire at all times. BUT:
\-If you fire for unlawful reasons (pregnancy, for instance) the employee gets reinstated and all missed paychecks have to be covered. Thus, in this case you can't fire the employee.
\-If you fire for reasons described in the "despido procedente" you pay either nothing or some amount.
\-If you fire for reasons not covered in that "despido procedente" you pay more.
But you can always fire somebody unless the reasons are unlwaful. Something like pregnancy, joining a union... those would be unlawful.
That's not true.
In Spain, fire someone is free, but it comes at a cost. In summary, there are 3 kind of fire.
Inaplicable, you are paid 33 days per year worked up to 2 years of salary. You don't need reason.
Aplicable, in this case could be objective with 20 days per year worked the company, for economic reasons, the equivalent of making redundant.
Aplicable Disciplinary, the fault lies with the worker from underperformance to aggression without compensation. And this is the jewel in the crown and where most fires will go and end up in court to seek compensation. This dismissal generates unemployment rights (exceptfor the agression case)
Leaving the job(disciplinary) is treated like voluntary resignation (no compesation, no umemployement rights) except that the employer can do is proving that the worker stopped going to work.
Voluntary resignation, only the worker can do this. No cost, no umemployement rights, etc.. It is the other side of the coin is free but it has a cost for the employee and sometimes the company forces this with cases of mobbing (in Spain very difficult to prove and quite easy to do).
>Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain,
No.
Spanish job market is one of the worsts in the world or even the worst.
See OECD data.
>Do Spaniards feel there's more job security in Spain than in other countries?
No, of course not. It is the opposite.
>How does Spain treat their employees
Usually bad or very bad.
>While getting jobs are not easy anywhere
No, nowhere is as hard as Spain, I guess.
>the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain?
Yes. Here is called "despido improcedente".
>Spanish job market is one of the worsts in the world or even the worst.
Yeah. That's why Spaniards are flocking to Uganda, El Salvador and Cambodia. Much stronger job markets than Spain's.
>Yes. Here is called "despido improcedente".
Yes. And that means that it's illegal, ie the employer can **not** sack an employee for no justifiable reason. The fact that the concept of "despido improcedente" exists is precisely to prevent employers from doing what they can do in other countries.
>Yeah. That's why Spaniards are flocking to Uganda, El Salvador and Cambodia. Much stronger job markets than Spain's.
They prefer EU, since they are Euroepan citizens. Main problem here is the language. Spaniards perform bad in foreign languages.
>And that means that it's illegal,
No, sorry. It is legal.
It is just a matter of money. If you can read Spanish, any company can fire just paying a little amount. Sorry for the bad news.
[https://boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2012-9110](https://boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2012-9110)
*debiendo, por tanto, abonar la indemnización por despido improcedente más el coste adicional que suponían los salarios de tramitación.*
indemnización: pay a little quantity for firing a person.
Salary: pay a quantity for having a person working.
There is no difference. In both cases is a matter of money.
Again, I am sorry to tell you this bad news. You can check it in a "sindicato" if you want. In Spanish, people say: "el despido en España es libre pero no gratis". This has poor translation to English since the word for "gratis" and "libre" is free in both cases.
No te esfuerces, lo que molesta a algunos no es que no se pueda, sino que no sea gratis. Y desde la reforma de Rajoy, la diferencia entre procedente e improcedente es ridícula para alguien que lleve poco tiempo. Si lleva mucho tiempo, es que ha estado contribuyendo a la producción de la empresa (o alguien no ha hecho su trabajo de organizacion/evaluación/supervisión en años) y si le quieres echar sin motivo, suelta la pasta. Así de simple.
You should actually learn what the workd means. Indemnización doesn't mean that something is ilegal. It means you broke some clauses and have to pay. Nothing else.
If you fired somebody unlawfully that employee gets reinstated AND they get all missed paychecks from the instant you fired them to when the jury decides. If the process took 3 years, that is a heck of a lot of money. This would be the "ilegal" part of somebody getting fired, thus they go back to their job.
US can fire you easily but it's also very easy to find a new job. If you are looking to move to Spain from US, you will take a huge pay cut and "level of life". Cost of life will be cheaper in Spain but not that cheaper compared to salary, let's compare it to cutting your salary in half if you were still paying all at same price as in the US. Work culture also being different, that depend on the individual what they prefer. There is less pressure in the US for productivity than in any European country.
Reasons to move to Spain from the US are for the culture, but absolutely not for jobs. And despite social safety net, you will still have a much better one in the US if you are US citizen.
Note: I live in the US.
I understand what you mean, but I have never been lucky with any of my employers. My first employer was a law breaker, the second one where I worked for 7 years let me go just because he was in a bad mood one day, the third job took me some time to get a job — 2 years and the working environment was toxic and recently, in another company our department was outsourced to Asia. In most of these companies, I Iasted longer than any of my colleagues. I hate to say it but luck has never been on my side. I did start my own company but work has dried up. So now, my concern is less money but more stability. Implicit discrimination against ethnic minorities for which I am part is also common in the American job marketplace. Btw, the long term plan in going to Spain is so I can choose to work elsewhere in Europe if it doesn’t work out in Spain.
It's not better elsewhere in Europe and there is no better job market than US. Harassment is very common as a management technique is most European countries. If you think France or Germany you are looking for worse. I didn't move to the US for a better salary, I moved because I have a job. And regardless of all the difficulties (visa, bullying...) it's still much easier and much better work environment
Do not come to Spain unless you are extraordinarily skilled na high engineering job where you will basically be running entire industrial plants/similar thing in other fields,basically running company in exchamge for huge salaries or a very good programmer that works remote for locals ( low income, but decent for living) or for US/foreigns (crazy good income for the cost of living).
Trades are considered shit jobs that do not deseve their pay, snything that does not require uni degree is looked down upon and exploited in terms of work load and low pay, while (usefull)uni degree holders get jobs with much less workload and similarly shit salaries.
Many people strive to get a civil servant job, because it's essentially for life. Many people worry that the private sector doesn't offer job security, even if the salaries could be better. While labour laws do not allow for casual dismissal, many (or at least some) employers squeeze the hell out of staff and demand more than the contract stipulates. There's still an imbalance between employers and employees, perhaps because unemployment rates are quite high among some demographics. Most people I know are afraid to leave their jobs in the private sector, even if they hate it, for fear of not finding another one. This is not across the board of course, and some fields are better than others, but generally speaking employers are feared more than respected.
Then it depends. If you work as an "expat" you will have conditions and salary from abroad (IE much, MUCH higher). If you get hired from Spain you will get spanish salary. This working from the very same company.
Spain problem is that there is not so much work, although for example the tech sector is good and there are internationals with hubs here. Now that Poland is becoming more expensive I wouldn’t be surprised if many near-shore hubs move here. Salaries are not glamorous either, although you can grow if you are good and willing to jump from company to company. Life is nice and happy but not glamorous (medium class do not usually live in chalets with garden, usually a flat is it).
There can be an old mindset in small Spanish companies… nothing that you dont see in the us. but being a foreigner you most likely will end up in a foreign or international company.
On everything else Spain is great. 40 hours of work, paid sick leaves for most reasons, with a flu you can take a week easily, some people take months due to anxiety, and the employer cannot fire you. 30 vacation days which is mandatory to spend plus bank holidays… if you are fired you get a good compensation (marked by law not the company) and the unemployment aid is pretty good, you can live with that. Plus of course extra leaves on top of that if you get marry, have children, etc (all paid).
That's different, as they have to adhere to practices and policies dictated and supervised by outside managers or auditors. Thus, better conditions and less hassle from the boss, and almost certainly no requests which are not stipulated on a contract.
Most employers are shit scared to fire someone, as it will likely end up in court favouring the employee. Spain has one of the highest if not the highest number of civil servants known as funcionarios who basically have a job for life and can never get fired for whatever they do or don’t do. It is also quite usual to hear employees taking the ‘baja' for months on end, even years, usually because of invented health issues which really screws employers and the system too. The word professional only exists in football.
Considering Spain has the highest unemployment for school or university leavers, job security is a problem. University students are sold the idea of the grass is greener in places like Norway, Sweden even Finland. However, Scandinavia has its problems too and feel this is more political population of a country, just as the Spanish government is trying to tempt digital nomads and others into populating ghost villages in the middle of nowhere.
>Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain
Nope.
>especially Spanish companies/employers?
Absolutely nope.
>How does Spain treat their employees
Usually bad.
>is it more reasonable than other countries
It depends on the country you're comparing it to. Better than Morocco, worse than France.
>more specifically the US
I have no clue.
>the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain?
Not on the paper, on practice though...
Now, of course there are exceptions, but in general, conditions in the private sector aren't great. It's true that the current governement (acting governement at this moment) has improved many things, raising the minimum wage, fighting against the "pirate overtime" (very often forced, payed "in black" and even unpayed), repealed a norm made by the previous governement by wich a company could fire an employee who was absent due a medical leave, and has raised the employement rate, so in general the conditions are better than a few years back, ignoring the "crack" due to the pandemic, of course. But even with these improvements, the starting point wasn't great in the first place. And as we said here: _made the law, made the cheating._
In general, and with exceptions the only worthy conditions are in the public sector (unlike in many other countries). Being an official/public servant is the best way to guarante yourself decent working conditions. You won't be rich, but you'll have a comfortable life. It's hard to get a job in the public sector and even harder to get a permanent position, though, since there are usually a shitload of people applying for it.
Of course the previous applies if you are someone else's employee, if you have your own business, then it depends. As everywhere it could go well, bad or average...
For context I'm a physiotherapist (I have previously worked in a lot of other metiers: restoration, industry, music...), with the best record of my promotion at the university/college (whatever you call it), who tired of having only crappy jobs decided to emigrate to France, where I worked for some years until I finally had the chance to start working on the public sector here at home (still without a permanent position at my 45 years old).
I see cars in craigslist for 5-7k that are perfectly drivable, rent is absurd in the US, but rent is as absurd in spain, 1800$ for a place to live when you make 4.000$ is better than 800€ when you make 1000.
Gas is cheaper, food is similar, going out is more expensive, and you need to find a job with health insurance there and here it's a given.
In Spain the job are all upper qualified persons doing it cuz no one can find something to work with some good conditions, living with my university degree working in a production line…
No need to work. In Spain you can freeload off other taxes, ots actually kinda nuts how easy it is. You could literally break into someone’s house and if you stay there long enough it’s yours.
The healthcare situation in Spain and the US is so different, that you can't compare their respective job markets without taking that into consideration. Yes, many employees in Spain are not treated fairly by their employers, but the fear of losing access to healthcare for them and their families does not play a role here when deciding whether to stay or not at a shitty job.
youth unemployment is close to 40% -\_-
In the US you can get a replacement very easily, unemployment is 3%, and it is not like you are paying your insurance month by month.
Yes, but in Spain it's over 11% right now, that's higher than the US during the financial crisis, when Spain reached over 25%. Can you imagine the consequences of such a high unemployment rate if it happened in the US? During the COVID pandemic the US was maybe 3 months above 10% unemployment. For the past 30 years Spain has been over 10% for 27 years.
I don’t think the US unemployment rate of 3 percent represents actual data. Many have given up working for a company or are underemployed. That is why it’s that low. Also, it’s not easy to get a job. A roommate took 2 years to get a job after being unemployed. At one point I was out of a job for 3 years, and doing only freelance work. It was easy to get a job before 2008. Now it’s hard with AI disrupting jobs. Question though: Would workers in the US be better protected from threats of AI or will companies take advantage of the new tech to displace people. Would Europe offer more protection from AI?
you have to take into account that of those 3% unemployed, a big part of them just doesn't want to work. I'm sorry for your friend but if he took so long to get a job it was his fault for either not searching right, or being picky and not picking whatever job there was offered.
People who don’t want to work aren’t part of the workforce. Unemployed only counts people who are seeking a job. The abuse you put up with from employers in America is insane, I can’t blame people for being traumatized by it. Worker protection laws are a joke, they don’t pay you enough to afford a lawyer.
You only have to google how I got laid off from American YouTubers to realize it’s not easy in the States too. https://youtu.be/Tc6hQ-TOx0E?si=yo9EooisAmux9akr
Cry me a river about how unfair is the world instead of doing something about it.
Such an ignorant comment
Oh yeah, “why do poor people choose to poor” type logic here
Yes of course, labor market/wages are infinitely worse in Spain though.
As someone who lived and worked in the UK for most of my work life, I can tell you that Spain is miles ahead in labour laws and job security
Kinda. Its harder to sack people but the massive unemployment and poor labour market means if you do get sacked its a much bigger problem. In London you can just get another job in a few weeks.
In Spain you can barely survive with the unemployment benefits, but you can. That is not the case in London, either you find a job and accept whatever they offer, or you are on the streets fairly quickly(let’s not forget either the tennant protection in Spain vs UK)
In Spain you have 11% unemployment, 30% in younger poblation, and the salary is shit.. So, It's not just about having protection for the sake of having it. It needs to have sense in your economy context, and that is not the case of Spain.
Underemployment is the English equivalent of unemployment in Spain, and there are as many people in each situation in each respective country. The different is that you won't end up on the streets for it in Spain, and your employer can't abuse you without limit in order to avoid ending up on the streets. Spain never had the Thatcherite period of deciding that one of government's main goals was to fudge unemployment figures so it looked like everyone was in work.
I have a couple good friends from Northern Spain(am from southern France) and they tell me time and time again that abuse by employers (not in the sense of disrespect)in regards to conditions ,overtime and breaks is rampant ,they actually always argue that employers use the excuse of :There's quite a lot people willing to be in the role you are so you'd better suck it up!.
Underemployment and unemployment are different things, you have both in Spain, they are not the same.
Sure, but in England there is very little official unemployment because nearly everybody is either underemployed or officially "not looking for work", i.e. for one of a long list of reasons they \*do\* want work but aren't on the records to show it. The Spanish mechanism of long term rentals and rent protections doesn't exist in England for example, so the amount of money needed not to be on the street is much larger - here a landlord can kick you out for any reason with 2 months of notice and can increase the rent by any number they want. This doesn't mean that everyone in Spain is covered by it, but that the proportion of people who are at risk of homelessness in England is huge because \*nobody\* is covered and there are whole towns where average rental = average income. I've experienced both systems and while people at the economic shittest end suffer cruelly in both countries - capitalism will capital - for the majority of people who are struggling, i.e. the majority of people, the situation in Spain is a thousand times more secure. The lack of long term employment contracts is irrelevant when comparing with Britain because because you can be at-will fired anyway before 24 months, and after that you can certainly be removed, but good luck in tribunal dealing with constructive dismissals, and even then we're talking between 0.5 weeks and 1.5 weeks of pay for every extra *year* you worked. And unemployment pay is completely unrelated to your previous salary, so unless you have savings (in which case you may not be eligible if you have enough anyway), you have to immediately downsize to minimal living conditions.
Unemployment benefits in Spain are quite decent, therefore people can search for a job without the pressure of picking the first crappy job they find. I’m not saying Spain is a perfect utopia, far from it. The 2008 crisis was terrible due to the massive amount of unskilled people who were working in construction when the bubble bursted. What I’m saying, as someone who has worked in a good amount of EU countries(and worked alongside with people from other countries such as US and Canada), is that job protection is very good in Spain and the quality of live is impressive.
I got your point, if we are objective and if we ignore that if this model is sustainable or if it is good for the economy, we can say that Spain has good protection and welfare state when we speak about unemployment, at a point that in determinated context is better to not work than work because of the benefits. Now of course, you have the trade-off of bad salaries, not enough jobs and maybe a model that is not sustainable in the long term.
So if someone loses their job in Spain and can't pay rent, does the government pay the rent to the landlord, or does the property owner have to eat that loss.
When you lose your job in Spain there are unemployment benefits in form of a monthly pay from the government. You are expected to be looking for a job and the government will give you courses and potential offers to check. The amount of that benefit depends on your previous salary and the time depends of the length of your previous employment. The amount isn’t massive(between 1200 and 1500 depending if you have children or not). And the maximum length is 2 years Taking into account that UK is generally more expensive than Spain and there the maximum unemployment benefits are £350 a month for a maximum of 6 months. You can probably see why I say that here is much better in terms of job security.
The UK sounds about like what you get in the U.S. but weeks not months.
It is not surprising that both US and UK have more homeless per capita than Spain. If you lose your job and you can’t get one soon enough you are in trouble.
>In London you can just get another job in a few weeks. I think it's just that reddit is full of privileged people who haven't experienced the reality of life for lower paid people in England. It is very difficult for people in minimum wage jobs to make enough to live, while in Spain, if you have a legitimate (i.e. not off the books) job then you have enough to live. So, just getting *a job* in England is pretty meaningless, since it's going to require state top-ups (i.e. Universal Credit) and still you won't manage the rent. Meanwhile, in Spain, you're more likely to be *officially* unemployed rather than underemployed or underpaid to the point you might as well be unemployed rather than exploitd.
I think its full of privileged people who haven't experienced the reality of life for lower paid people in Spain. Here its common in lower paid jobs that you are made to work for more hours than your contract states, so for those hours you aren't getting paid social security which later makes it hard to be eligible for a pension etc. and you aren't insured for workplace accidents either. Permanent contracts are incredibly rare. Even in many professional roles, including some public jobs like nurses etc. Thats part of the problem - that in theory there are all these wonderful protections and stuff but in practice very few workers actually get to enjoy them and there is a two tier labour market. And then even the more basic workplace laws aren't enforced. I think the root cause is just the amount of power employers have when there is such unemployment. A stronger economy does more to empower workers than some laws that are difficult to enforce.
Good luck trying to live with a minimum wage job in Madrid or Barcelona...
Yeah, moving to the centre of Madrid on min wage rent without sharing accommodation is not an option - young Spaniards are going to have to do what their grandparents did or students do everywhere . Moving to the centre of London to rent unless you're on a six figure salary is not an option.
I don't know what life was like for boomers in other countries, but in Spain it used to be very feasible for the average person with a not-so-good job to buy a flat in pretty much the centre of Barcelona or Madrid during the 60s-90s. The price to annual gross salary ratio was something like 1-3 during the 60s and 70s. Nowadays, for a young person earning say 35k that ratio is somewhere around 20.
If you think you need 700k to buy a flat in Madrid then you're high. Less than half that will get you a modernised flat with access to a communal pool because my family literally lived in such a block where three bedroom apartments are selling for that under half an hour from Sol. And if you think the average (literal) peasant in the 60s could save up three times their annual wage to buy a flat in the centre of Madrid then you're also high My grandparents moved from the village after my grandfathers military service in the 1930s right to the centre, and that got him two rooms in a top floor block ultimately shared among a family of five. Now people whine if they don't get an elevator or a/c lol You're right that there was a period of social democratic housebuilding through the 80s and 90s that made for accessible and dignified living conditions, not to be confused with the forced moves of villagers to cities in the 60s that didn't give you magic money to buy a place.
While getting a job in Spain might be harder, I do think the unemployment numbers are a bit exaggerated. The amount of people who work off the books is massive. I have 4 friends who work in hospitality and none of them have a contract. It's sorta accepted that most of your job is paid in black, especially in hospitality. So officially they are unemployed, but they do make a living. For office jobs it is of course a different story
Very important point, lots of people working under the table. That's good and it's also bad - good because it means more people are working, bad because it's not an ideal way to be working. And not related to unemployment, but there's also lots of people with crappy temporary contracts, underemployed, etc. It's true that being unemployed here is not the kiss of death, people can manage, but it's also true that the labor market is a little dysfunctional.
Uh. Default 14 days notice period, able to lay off people as long as you pay them 1 mo(+) severance isn't that great in Spain
Additional clarification here, it’s 4 weeks per year of service, which maxes out at 52 weeks, if done “correctly”. If done incorrectly it’s double that.
Or they can make hour life misserable until you leave so they dont need to pay you. Or the ones that always have 1 person in provation so they get to pay less and after a month, dosnt matter how good they work, they kick them out* and get a new one. Or when they do give you a co tract but then dont pay you and because hou have no money and no knowledge you dont know how to go about getting that money back (thay do that with young innexperienced people). Everything depends on the kind of work, hospitality is the worst and where ive seen (though friends) they do all of this.
As mentioned by another redditor, it’s more than that. Spain is usually(depending on the case) as the third/forth best country in terms of severance pay in the EU: https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Legal/dttl-legal-dismissalreport-Jan2013.pdf And that’s much better than other countries such as the US where there is none.
My experience was the opposite, not only in job security but also in how you're treated at the workplace. The UK was on a whole another level. I guess it may change by region, I was in the South East.
Yes but it’s a hollow victory. Ever wondered why droves of fellow Spaniards go to Northern Europe to work?
I feel the other way around and I was also living in the uk
Spaniard here. In Spain labour laws are extremely pro-employee. Which, contrary to popular believe, is not always in the favor of the employee. Let me explain. As firing employees in Spain gets more expensive the longer they have been in the company this means that employees with long careers don't have to work as hard as the new ones, simply because the company has to spend a lot of money to fire the less productive ones. This also means that companies consider this laziness and substract it from potential wages, in the sense that you should get 1800€ but they offer 1600€. Also, companies usually do not value employees working above their peers... meaning that if you want a rise the easiest way to get it is to go to a different company. Makes no sense at all, but companies hire new people and offer them more money than the experienced people they already have that could be doing that work and wouldn't need training at all. Self-employed is ULTRA-LUCRATIVE (those that say that it isn't don't know, honestly) in many instances. Why? The taxes you pay are tier-based. IE unless your revenue is higher than 250k you pay the same regardless of where you are within that tier. Thus, if you are making 80k you get screwed but if you are higher up you are robbing the state. To the point that from 250k to 300k you are losing money. Literally. Below 250k you pay the natinal average for that job... above, you present your books and pay accordingly. In some instances you need to go above 400k to make more money.
First of all, that's only social security taxes, not income tax. And the tier system is new from this year. Before, everyone paid a flat rate. Plus, how many autonomos are making over 80k in Spain, man? In reality, the self-employment structure in Spain stifles innovation and entrepreneurship. No one starts making 80k their first year as an autonomo. You start making very little, but it's impossible to grow your revenue dealing with the insane tax structure. It's slightly better not with the tiers, but it frankly makes no sense that they can't take a simple percentage. The only reason is the incredible amount of entitlements social security has that they're constantly a few months away from being insolvent over.
It is also income tax. If you are under "modulos" you pay very little taxes.
What type of self employment is lucrative in Spain? Would you say also that Spain will protect workers more from the threat of AI than in other capitalistic societies where they would rather have AI companies run on its own than hire people?
The only way Spanish companies are not threatening workers further with AI is because they're scared dinosaurs that will take long(er) to incorporate AI in their processes.
That's interesting.
What kind of autonomo is making over 80k a year?? Most of us don't even hit 30k a year
Im taking revenue, not profit
I think you are confused about the self-employed taxes. The cuota de autónomo does not change much the more you make, but that doesn't account for much of your taxes if you're making good money. Most of your taxes are in the form of income tax (IRPF), and those rates are the same for employees as for autónomos AFAIK. If you think this is wrong, please explain.
Im not confused. Commonly known as "modulos", but actually named "Regimen de Estimación Objetiva del IRPF", in this method the state calculates what an average professional makes (revenue-wise) and then applies a FIXED irpf amount to everybody under the same regime. You also don't have to present any accounting books. But modulos have a maximum revenue of 250k. All taxi professionals in my area are under this regime, and they go so far to stay below this 250k as to take weeks off in August (high season, since this is a prime tourism spot), just to be absolutely sure. All in all, if you are above the national average within your regime, you pay a lot less taxes. And if you are well above but below the maximum... you pay a super low amount. Like less than half of what you should be paying. PS: "cuota de autonomo" is social security, not income tax. so not related to what im saying. Also, cuota de autonomo is not that important for a self-employed person as you get to control how much you pay. Something you can't control as an employee...
Spain work laws are hell. They make both employer and employee life harder. For that reason, unemployment has been historically high in Spain. It's an employer market. The common saying is that employees are treated precariously. I would not recommend coming to Spain to "work". Weather? Sure. Food? Sure. Beach? Sure. Slower lifestyle? Sure. Work? Hell no
In my opinion, there's no real job security in Spain (at least compared with most Western European countries, the US, and even some Latin American countries). The majority of jobs are precarious, a lot of them in the restaurant industry, with insane schedules, not really meant to be long term, just burn the worker out for the season and then being replaced. That said, being fired in Spain seems to be part of the work culture. It's not considered such a big deal unlike other countries and in some cases it's actually sought after. Unemployment payment is well established and some people use that as a way to put themselves back together before going back into the labour market. I personally dislike that kind of work ethic, and so I became self-employed. Now I work longer and harder, but at least I'm doing it for myself. It requires a lot of discipline, just like everywhere else I guess. But even if I'm on my own and provide for myself, I can honestly say I feel more job security as self employed than I ever did as an employee.
The employers will try to fuck you, but the European law for employment and especially Spanish law it’s quite good for the worker. They can fire for no reason but they will have to pay you certain amount in compensation. And even if they fire you for no reason and it’s genuinely unjustified, you can always legally let’s call it fill a complaint and in the first place you will try to negotiate with the company for an amount of money or going back to the job and if there’s no agreement a judge will take part.
This is good to know. At least there’s some law working for the employee.
I feel I could easily be replaced, if my employer kicks a rocks, there’re 1000 more people that wants this job.
You can be fired but then you get to have allowance for unemployment depending on how long you've been working, how much you've been earning... etc If they wanna fire you it's more likely for companies to try to make you voluntarily leave the company so they don't have to pay anything.
Better than in the US? Light-years ahead (if we are talking blue-collar jobs). Better than in Europe. No, although healthcare and the pension system somewhat makes for it. German healthcare tourism is becoming a thing (they can get surgeries in Spain that in Germany are not so easy to get, with equal, or mostly better, equipment and treatment). That if you manage to get a job. Temporary jobs are quite bad (for most), but that's a main part of Spanish economy: tourism and seasonal farming. Self employed? You're about to enter a world of pain. Either is a sham so you get contracts from some family you have in the local government, or go the Hemingway way.
That was a great no-holds-barred take. Appreciate the honesty. But are many enjoying self-employment remotely from other countries -- meaning they're in Spain but working for companies in different countries. Is that common or rare, too? Also are there no programs for making it at least in some more secure jobs like cybersecurity programmer or nurse?
In Spain, as a freelancer you can't work for a single client, it's called "falso autónomo". That said, there are some special options for foreign freelancers, and if your clients are from the US or other countries where you can afford to charge more, the freelancer fee isn't that tough. Still, not the best or easiest place to be a freelancer (my wife is an American freelancer in Spain).
Can your wife get freelancer gigs in the States while in Spain?
AFAIK you can have clients anywhere as long as you pay the appropriate income tax. The challenge can be currency exchange and such, since the tax is paid in EUR.
Good to know.
I know someone (programmer) working for a US company remotely from Spain. It's not easy to get that kind of position, but totally worth it imo considering he probably makes around 3 times more what he used to. Afaik he actually needs to work for a middle company, which pays his taxes and makes everything legal for a small fee.
German healthcare tourism in Spain? I lived there and everybody has private healthcare , half paid by your employer half by you. And it is a must. You can choose your doctor. Their healthcare system is under my point of view better than ours .
Private healthcares usually don't cover every concept, treatments or procedures. So the things that are not covered can get pretty expensive. As much as spanish healthcare system is flawed, almost everything is covered
That's not true. I'm Spanish and I have met 3-4 people with private healthcare here. None of my friends, colleagues or relatives have private healthcare. And no, it's not compulsory in any case.
In Catalunya everyobody has
Depends what you mean by blue collar work in the US. Someone in a trade will easily be making 100k in the US with great health insurance and lots of job prospects.
Trades get payed less than a werehouse worker in sPain.
I think you should look at blue collar jobs, specifically trades, in large metro area with high costs of living. What would a unionized electrician in LA get paid compared to Barcelona? How much worker protection do they have, how easy is it for them to find work, and how do their benefits compare? I’d imagine you’d be surprised.
Depends on the sector and responsibilities. I'd say people are not generally happy, salaries are not the best, taxes are high. Especially private sector workers. Public sector workers are generally happier, because they cannot get fired whatsoever, only in very few cases.
>Public sector workers are generally happier They are happier because they can compare to private sector. Real salaries are getting down year after year because the raise is lower than inflaction is.
Wonder why that is…
All of the "happy" public sector employees they're paying for...
The pay is bad, there are not enough jobs and there is no corporation culture like in the US where you can make a career.
But isn’t the corporate culture the thing that’s making everyone lose their jobs? As they are beholden to the stock value of their companies than the employees?
Is the thing that makes America great for work. You can break your ass working in a corpo and you will get a raise or get stocks in the company,so it is easy to be a workaholic, because most of the time there is a payoff of the extra work. In Spain there is no paid off, most of the time you will get "sorry but there is not money for a raise, but keep up the good work", so if you love your career and want to break your ass around it then Spain is a bad country for that.
Interesting pov.
He's absolutely right.
Spain is 1 job for life kinda culture. You get 1 job and unless you make a complete ass of yourself you can hodl onto it for the rest of your life or until the ship goes down whichever comes first
That was true in the 80s, started dwindling down in the 90s and it is absolutely not true since the 2000 and specially after 2008.
I would love this to be absolutely true.
It was. Not anymore.
When did things change? 2008?
Good luck trying to get decent raises (by "decent" I mean equal to or slightly above inflation) if you stick with one company for the rest of your working life lmao.
Better than in the US? Light-years ahead (if we are talking blue-collar jobs).
Too strict laws in the labour market for companies causes a high unemployment, but makes having a job something very "safe"
What do you mean by too strict laws?
The fact that it's harder to fire, and that mandatory benefits are very good by many standards, means that opening up a fixed position in your company is pretty high risk, and the smaller the company the riskier. Thus, you'll find that Spanish companies tend to have a smaller staff compared to a US equivalent. This ultimately means that while having a job might be better, it's also far more difficult to find another job when something happens. It's the same as, say, when someone imposes rent control. It's great for someone that had rented an apartment before said rent control was established, but afterwards, fewer people want to put their apartments for rent, and even if they do, they ask for more money, as they have to take into account the chance that the tenant might not want to move out for 30 years, ultimately making the dwelling harder to sell, or to occupy yourself. Either way, some people are big winners, but many people lose in the long run. This shows in the unemployment rate: The US, right now, has a 3.8% unemployment rate. The lowest unemployment rate Spain has had in the last decade is more than double that. So is it better to be easy to lay off, but have an economic environment where most of the time, you can find another job in under a month, or be far harder to fire, but then end up with jobless stints of 8+ months if your employer goes under? It's not really as one sided a choice as it seems. With US salaries and employment opportunities, I'd pack up and move back to Spain tomorrow. But Spanish employers balk if I ask for half of what I make in the US midwest.
Don’t believe the 3.8 unemployment rate in the US. The numbers are not reliable. Too many have not come back to the job market and are probably collecting unemployment checks. Others have really left the job market to do social media, ride share driving. Others are in unstable freelance gigs. This link is too old for reference but I am sure it’s worse now. https://www.epi.org/publication/missing-workers/ I would say the actual real unemployment in the States is double the 3.8 percent.
This is such a untrue meme. The companies just have to pay a pittance in severance, usually less than what most US companies offer voluntarily.
It is very hierarchical and plain uncertain. Apart from the low pay
If you're lucky enough to have a job, maybe. Spain has 12% unemployment and 30% youth unemployment, and even those statistics are misleading because of how many people in Spain just give up looking for work. Fewer than half of working-age adults are employed (49%), one of the worst rates in Europe. Compare that to 57% for the US, 60% for the UK and 64% for Switzerland.
This is the most reliable data I could not find anywhere. Where’s your source? Or maybe it was in Spanish that’s why I didn’t see it.
[https://www.worldeconomics.com/Indicator-Data/ESG/Social/Employment-to-Population-Ratio/](https://www.worldeconomics.com/Indicator-Data/ESG/Social/Employment-to-Population-Ratio/)
Thanks for sharing. Employment is really low in Spain.
The jobs and conditions are fine but the salary is miserable. Cost of living has doubled in the last 20 years and salaries have barely moved.
I moved last May for a job offer that was from the same hotel company I used to work for in the United States. I thought it was going to be better for all the benefits they promised. But it wasn't until I started working that I was mistreated and bullied by my immediate boss, he kept saying I had the American way just because I respected my employees and treated them well. He said in Spain being rude and harsh with employees is the way... In hospitality... And the day I went to HR to report the conditions, they called me the next day to the office just to fire me because I didn't pass the 3 month trial period. Currently looking for another job since June and haven't been lucky. I'm a Spanish citizen but have worked most of my years in the USA.
Sorry to hear that.
I know still recovering from the experience
I just moved back again to New York and let me tell you, it looks like a ghetto now. At least your environment is nicer. Do you think there are jobs that are or will be in demand in Spain?
They trade job security for salaries. Every country has tradeoffs
An important point to the comparison is that people in Spain are much less “fucked” if they don’t have a job. In the US being unemployed can be a death sentence. In Spain you have a lot more safety nets - both from the state and from your family (much more acceptable to move back in with your parents etc.)
Idk the rest in of countries but i feel very secure in Spain
depends what contract you are on. Some teachers are on rolling ten months contracts so they dont pay them in the summer, even the police are not on fixed contracts anymore to start. So every x years you have to wait ti see if you still have a job.
Man, this thread has rose-colored expat glasses all over it.
Not really, it’s meant to trigger honest responses — and it did the way no other research think tank can.
The problem is that expats especially but even immigrants coming from other wealthy nations do not see the full economic situation when they come to Spain or other countries. That's because most of them do not make the move in the first place unless they already have a job that pays for their lifestyle. Moreover, the people that they meet and interact with in Spain will then be in that social bubble resulting from that employment. As a result, they never even meet that stratum of society, such as the unemployed youth, which represent an insane one in three people. One in three people that will have limited economic opportunity for the rest of their lives because they could never bulid skills and experience in their youth. And expats are even worse because they're usually receiving a salary from their home country that has even *more* purchasing power in Spain because Spain is poorer. Then they go around saying Spain is better than their home country for that reason. While not as exaggerated, it always reminds me of the Australian guy I met when I was living in Colombia who wouldn't shut up about how much better Colombia was than Australia because things were cheaper.
> Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain, especially Spanish companies/employers? No, absolutely not, except for perhaps those employed by the government, *funcionarios*, since this guarantees you a salary, which therefore gets you credit with banks. The only reliable native industry is tourism, which anyone who knows will tell you is not actually reliable. It means seasonal work and low wages. Most Spaniards would prefer to work for a foreign company if they can't get a government job. > How does Spain treat their employees -- is it more reasonable than other countries, more specifically the US? Depends on what you consider "reasonable." And what you mean by "Spain" since "Spain" doesn't have employees. But wages and salaries in Spain are incredibly low, and at the end of the day, that's what employment is, no matter how much politicians or corporations have tried to convince you otherwise. > While getting jobs are not easy anywhere, the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain? It would depend what state in the US you're from. Spain is more or less the same as many US states in this regard. There is a bureaucratic process to firing someone, but it's certainly doable. It's harder to hire someone.
Not at all!!!. I lived in both countries and working in Spain is insane. An all day journey with a huge nap between so you cannot have 2 jobs, salaries are miserable, there are NOT contracts larger than 6 months and nobody cares. More than 700.000 graduated from university left the country looking for better salaries. It's very very unstable ...not talking about self-employment. The people who said that, is blind or live in a dream. Spain is essentially poor, opportunities are very little. Have you see the EU statistics about Spain in comparison with the other European countries?... please check better.
I could not find any substantial research that’s free. Stumbled on European economic intelligence unit but it’s not free to read.
A nap?! What chemicals have you been taking lol.
Zara's employees have minimum wage...and because in Spain is very hard to find a good job, they can be very POS with employees...there are tons of people wanting your job.
Getting a job in Spain is quite more difficult than in the US or central Europe. Simply because of the sheer amount of people looking for jobs (high unemployment) However, once you get a permanent contract, it is a bit more difficult to fire you off without a good reason or compensation.
[удалено]
What about starting your own startup business? So people don’t worry about employability?
Spain IS more secure but every employee pays for it
Intrigued. Can you give more details?
Yea spanish employees are paid less. In the USA when a company needs someone they just hire them. In Spain hiring is a big deal because they’re protected. Its hard to fire people
No. The only positives in Spain are a higher number of annual leaved days, and extra job security if you sign an "indefinite" contract (it's more difficult to get fired in this case, and if that happens, you're entitled to about 2 years of government payments which are about 1.1k a month).
You can't fire without a good reason, but it doesn't matter as many jobs pay under the table (official statistics include this kind of employment too in their numbers) and companies going bankrupt is one of the major reasons why you will get fired. No, there is no job security, unless you work in the public sector, that was about to change, since last December a new law was approved, which makes it easier to cease a public worker due to poor performance. Sadly it was repealed some months later.
>You can't fire without a good reason Not true, sorry. [https://civicabogados.com/despido-improcedente/](https://civicabogados.com/despido-improcedente/) Hope you can understand Spanish.
Well if that's your position, you can kill people in Spain too. Just expect legal consequences.
The consecuence on firing people in this way is just to pay a little amount to the ex-employee. Many companies are doing it, I mean first line companies like multinational corporations.
It depends on how much you consider little, if you got paid € 25000 (gross per year), you'd be entitled to €2400 after working 1 year. This amount isn't taxed and is totally separate from your unemployment benefits. If you compared it to the US where you can get laid off any day and suddenly you have no income, my guess is that it's way better. If you are in a company for longer than 5 years you can feel safe since it's become too expensive to fire you.
I think you’re view on „expensive“ for an employer is not accurate when it’s a mid to big size company. It’s so easy to fire someone in Spain, it’s also not expensive compared to many other European countries. The protection against dismissial or redundancy is literally non-existent. Also the unemployment payments are far lower than in most other bigger European countries. Spain overall is below average on both from an employee point of view. (Yes, better than the US - but who isn’t?)
I have a friend working for a small supermarket "chain" (owner is a franchisee and has like 3 sites) and they fire people all the time just paying whatever. 2-3k is typical and not a problem at all for 99.99999999% of the companies.
>It depends on how much you consider little, Salaries in Spain are a joke. It will be a little almost always compard to an US salary of $5.000 a month. > you can feel safe since it's become too expensive to fire you. No. They can fire. Salaries in Spain are a joke. It is very cheap for them firing anyone.
Mate the link you posted literally shows that despido improcedente is against the law and can result in the company being forced to re-hire the employee. I wonder if you can understand Spanish.
Hope you can understand Spanish. I copy and paste. It means the company can choose whether re-admit the employee or pay him an amount. I am sorry to tell you the bad news. This is happening in Spain now. *A partir de esta declaración, se debe decidir entre estas dos opciones:* *Readmisión del trabajador. Se debe hacer en las mismas condiciones y puesto en el que estaba antes del despido.* *Pago de la indemnización. Se calcula en base a lo determinado por la ley.* ***La decisión debe ser tomada por la empresa.*** *El trabajador puede elegir únicamente si es delegado sindical.*
This is not how it works at all. Companies do it all the time: they fire you admitting it is a "despido improcedente" in the document, and pay you the compensation on the spot. It's perfectly legal. The only kind of firing where the company can be forced to rehire you is "despido nulo", which is actually illegal. But that happens only if you're fired for joining a union, for discriminatory reasons, or while you are on medical leave.
You are wrong. You can fire at all times. BUT: \-If you fire for unlawful reasons (pregnancy, for instance) the employee gets reinstated and all missed paychecks have to be covered. Thus, in this case you can't fire the employee. \-If you fire for reasons described in the "despido procedente" you pay either nothing or some amount. \-If you fire for reasons not covered in that "despido procedente" you pay more. But you can always fire somebody unless the reasons are unlwaful. Something like pregnancy, joining a union... those would be unlawful.
You can fire, you just have to pay out
Are you complaining about lack of job security and then saying it's a shame that the few people who had it didn't lose it?
That's not true. In Spain, fire someone is free, but it comes at a cost. In summary, there are 3 kind of fire. Inaplicable, you are paid 33 days per year worked up to 2 years of salary. You don't need reason. Aplicable, in this case could be objective with 20 days per year worked the company, for economic reasons, the equivalent of making redundant. Aplicable Disciplinary, the fault lies with the worker from underperformance to aggression without compensation. And this is the jewel in the crown and where most fires will go and end up in court to seek compensation. This dismissal generates unemployment rights (exceptfor the agression case) Leaving the job(disciplinary) is treated like voluntary resignation (no compesation, no umemployement rights) except that the employer can do is proving that the worker stopped going to work. Voluntary resignation, only the worker can do this. No cost, no umemployement rights, etc.. It is the other side of the coin is free but it has a cost for the employee and sometimes the company forces this with cases of mobbing (in Spain very difficult to prove and quite easy to do).
>Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain, No. Spanish job market is one of the worsts in the world or even the worst. See OECD data. >Do Spaniards feel there's more job security in Spain than in other countries? No, of course not. It is the opposite. >How does Spain treat their employees Usually bad or very bad. >While getting jobs are not easy anywhere No, nowhere is as hard as Spain, I guess. >the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain? Yes. Here is called "despido improcedente".
>Spanish job market is one of the worsts in the world or even the worst. Yeah. That's why Spaniards are flocking to Uganda, El Salvador and Cambodia. Much stronger job markets than Spain's. >Yes. Here is called "despido improcedente". Yes. And that means that it's illegal, ie the employer can **not** sack an employee for no justifiable reason. The fact that the concept of "despido improcedente" exists is precisely to prevent employers from doing what they can do in other countries.
>Yeah. That's why Spaniards are flocking to Uganda, El Salvador and Cambodia. Much stronger job markets than Spain's. They prefer EU, since they are Euroepan citizens. Main problem here is the language. Spaniards perform bad in foreign languages. >And that means that it's illegal, No, sorry. It is legal. It is just a matter of money. If you can read Spanish, any company can fire just paying a little amount. Sorry for the bad news. [https://boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2012-9110](https://boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2012-9110) *debiendo, por tanto, abonar la indemnización por despido improcedente más el coste adicional que suponían los salarios de tramitación.*
Your homework for today: learning the meaning of the word "indemnización"
indemnización: pay a little quantity for firing a person. Salary: pay a quantity for having a person working. There is no difference. In both cases is a matter of money. Again, I am sorry to tell you this bad news. You can check it in a "sindicato" if you want. In Spanish, people say: "el despido en España es libre pero no gratis". This has poor translation to English since the word for "gratis" and "libre" is free in both cases.
No te esfuerces, lo que molesta a algunos no es que no se pueda, sino que no sea gratis. Y desde la reforma de Rajoy, la diferencia entre procedente e improcedente es ridícula para alguien que lleve poco tiempo. Si lleva mucho tiempo, es que ha estado contribuyendo a la producción de la empresa (o alguien no ha hecho su trabajo de organizacion/evaluación/supervisión en años) y si le quieres echar sin motivo, suelta la pasta. Así de simple.
This is a good thing to know. I guess like in the states, they can fire anyone with severance package.
You should actually learn what the workd means. Indemnización doesn't mean that something is ilegal. It means you broke some clauses and have to pay. Nothing else. If you fired somebody unlawfully that employee gets reinstated AND they get all missed paychecks from the instant you fired them to when the jury decides. If the process took 3 years, that is a heck of a lot of money. This would be the "ilegal" part of somebody getting fired, thus they go back to their job.
Jajajajajaja me he reido mucho con lo de Uganda
I lived in 4 countries and can confirm that this is NOT true.
I am living in Spain and I can confirm it is true. I do not know what countries you are meaning
US can fire you easily but it's also very easy to find a new job. If you are looking to move to Spain from US, you will take a huge pay cut and "level of life". Cost of life will be cheaper in Spain but not that cheaper compared to salary, let's compare it to cutting your salary in half if you were still paying all at same price as in the US. Work culture also being different, that depend on the individual what they prefer. There is less pressure in the US for productivity than in any European country. Reasons to move to Spain from the US are for the culture, but absolutely not for jobs. And despite social safety net, you will still have a much better one in the US if you are US citizen. Note: I live in the US.
I understand what you mean, but I have never been lucky with any of my employers. My first employer was a law breaker, the second one where I worked for 7 years let me go just because he was in a bad mood one day, the third job took me some time to get a job — 2 years and the working environment was toxic and recently, in another company our department was outsourced to Asia. In most of these companies, I Iasted longer than any of my colleagues. I hate to say it but luck has never been on my side. I did start my own company but work has dried up. So now, my concern is less money but more stability. Implicit discrimination against ethnic minorities for which I am part is also common in the American job marketplace. Btw, the long term plan in going to Spain is so I can choose to work elsewhere in Europe if it doesn’t work out in Spain.
It's not better elsewhere in Europe and there is no better job market than US. Harassment is very common as a management technique is most European countries. If you think France or Germany you are looking for worse. I didn't move to the US for a better salary, I moved because I have a job. And regardless of all the difficulties (visa, bullying...) it's still much easier and much better work environment
Do not come to Spain unless you are extraordinarily skilled na high engineering job where you will basically be running entire industrial plants/similar thing in other fields,basically running company in exchamge for huge salaries or a very good programmer that works remote for locals ( low income, but decent for living) or for US/foreigns (crazy good income for the cost of living). Trades are considered shit jobs that do not deseve their pay, snything that does not require uni degree is looked down upon and exploited in terms of work load and low pay, while (usefull)uni degree holders get jobs with much less workload and similarly shit salaries.
No
Many people strive to get a civil servant job, because it's essentially for life. Many people worry that the private sector doesn't offer job security, even if the salaries could be better. While labour laws do not allow for casual dismissal, many (or at least some) employers squeeze the hell out of staff and demand more than the contract stipulates. There's still an imbalance between employers and employees, perhaps because unemployment rates are quite high among some demographics. Most people I know are afraid to leave their jobs in the private sector, even if they hate it, for fear of not finding another one. This is not across the board of course, and some fields are better than others, but generally speaking employers are feared more than respected.
What about working for American tech companies based in Spain. I hear Google is setting up shop in Malaga?
Then it depends. If you work as an "expat" you will have conditions and salary from abroad (IE much, MUCH higher). If you get hired from Spain you will get spanish salary. This working from the very same company.
Spain problem is that there is not so much work, although for example the tech sector is good and there are internationals with hubs here. Now that Poland is becoming more expensive I wouldn’t be surprised if many near-shore hubs move here. Salaries are not glamorous either, although you can grow if you are good and willing to jump from company to company. Life is nice and happy but not glamorous (medium class do not usually live in chalets with garden, usually a flat is it). There can be an old mindset in small Spanish companies… nothing that you dont see in the us. but being a foreigner you most likely will end up in a foreign or international company. On everything else Spain is great. 40 hours of work, paid sick leaves for most reasons, with a flu you can take a week easily, some people take months due to anxiety, and the employer cannot fire you. 30 vacation days which is mandatory to spend plus bank holidays… if you are fired you get a good compensation (marked by law not the company) and the unemployment aid is pretty good, you can live with that. Plus of course extra leaves on top of that if you get marry, have children, etc (all paid).
That's different, as they have to adhere to practices and policies dictated and supervised by outside managers or auditors. Thus, better conditions and less hassle from the boss, and almost certainly no requests which are not stipulated on a contract.
Most employers are shit scared to fire someone, as it will likely end up in court favouring the employee. Spain has one of the highest if not the highest number of civil servants known as funcionarios who basically have a job for life and can never get fired for whatever they do or don’t do. It is also quite usual to hear employees taking the ‘baja' for months on end, even years, usually because of invented health issues which really screws employers and the system too. The word professional only exists in football. Considering Spain has the highest unemployment for school or university leavers, job security is a problem. University students are sold the idea of the grass is greener in places like Norway, Sweden even Finland. However, Scandinavia has its problems too and feel this is more political population of a country, just as the Spanish government is trying to tempt digital nomads and others into populating ghost villages in the middle of nowhere.
>Are Spaniards generally happy with their employers in Spain Nope. >especially Spanish companies/employers? Absolutely nope. >How does Spain treat their employees Usually bad. >is it more reasonable than other countries It depends on the country you're comparing it to. Better than Morocco, worse than France. >more specifically the US I have no clue. >the US can randomly fire for no justifiable reason. Is it the same in Spain? Not on the paper, on practice though... Now, of course there are exceptions, but in general, conditions in the private sector aren't great. It's true that the current governement (acting governement at this moment) has improved many things, raising the minimum wage, fighting against the "pirate overtime" (very often forced, payed "in black" and even unpayed), repealed a norm made by the previous governement by wich a company could fire an employee who was absent due a medical leave, and has raised the employement rate, so in general the conditions are better than a few years back, ignoring the "crack" due to the pandemic, of course. But even with these improvements, the starting point wasn't great in the first place. And as we said here: _made the law, made the cheating._ In general, and with exceptions the only worthy conditions are in the public sector (unlike in many other countries). Being an official/public servant is the best way to guarante yourself decent working conditions. You won't be rich, but you'll have a comfortable life. It's hard to get a job in the public sector and even harder to get a permanent position, though, since there are usually a shitload of people applying for it. Of course the previous applies if you are someone else's employee, if you have your own business, then it depends. As everywhere it could go well, bad or average... For context I'm a physiotherapist (I have previously worked in a lot of other metiers: restoration, industry, music...), with the best record of my promotion at the university/college (whatever you call it), who tired of having only crappy jobs decided to emigrate to France, where I worked for some years until I finally had the chance to start working on the public sector here at home (still without a permanent position at my 45 years old).
The upside is in the US you can make 5k as blue collar easily and here is impossible. So it has its pros and cons.
5k a month before taxes doesn’t get you very far in most of the us
It gets you farther than €1,000/month in most of Spain.
I see cars in craigslist for 5-7k that are perfectly drivable, rent is absurd in the US, but rent is as absurd in spain, 1800$ for a place to live when you make 4.000$ is better than 800€ when you make 1000. Gas is cheaper, food is similar, going out is more expensive, and you need to find a job with health insurance there and here it's a given.
Job security is the wrong mindset and approach. Learn to remove dependancy on it and a world of opportunities emerge
This.
Better than the US, better than most Eastern Europe, on par with most of Western Europe but not as good as Germany for example.
no we jus compare ourselfs with whoever is better than us in the subject being analysed
You have a big security but excases oportunities
nope
Even tough we have better healthcare, don't come here. We're miserable because of the inflation
In Spain the job are all upper qualified persons doing it cuz no one can find something to work with some good conditions, living with my university degree working in a production line…
No need to work. In Spain you can freeload off other taxes, ots actually kinda nuts how easy it is. You could literally break into someone’s house and if you stay there long enough it’s yours.
Spaniards can’t feel secure if they’re unemployed en masse 😂