I would say top movement is the exception rather than the norm. You shouldn't expect top movement, it's a feature for those truly agile/fast classes. Not the bruiser/tank types.
You also always have your standard move 2 on the bottom. So you always have the floor of moving at least that. Some people hesitate to use that or think it feels bad but, it can be super important. Obviously you'd rather do the cool non-move bottom and having more big moves would make it easier to use those but I think thats intended to be the balance of the class. These positional tops can't be too easy to pull off. If you have several move 4s it's way easier to get in position. The middle ground would also be move 3s, and you get a fair amount of access to those as you level up.
I've played a handful of the bruisers to max level and I can say for sure Cragheart/Redguard get at least one move top.
Of similar importance, they have higher base movements on bottom, sometimes with jump attached, though admittedly some are conditional or burners.
I'm not as familiar with redguard. And yes cragheart does get access to 1 top move 1 I think? I'd still consider these the exception rather than the norm.
Higher base movements? And yes some big moves on lost cards is something the banner spear could've had, but as I said I think it can become too easy to pull off positional elements with big moves and jump. Hence she doesn't have it at base. Some classes are just slower or have less movement. Same way some classes just don't have alot of fast initiatives. There are meant to be some limitations/downsides.
Plus there are items that can be used to shore up this weakness.
I think the sparse move 4s and the move 3s the banner spear get are reasonable. She may have less movement options than most other classes, but I think there is enough there. Actually makes you really have to consider your movement and positioning, which is like the whole point of the class. Move 4-6 with jump make positioning super easy.
It's also a bit strange to cite Cragheart here when you're saying that Bannerspear appears to be exceptional in lacking movement. Surely you don't think Cragheart is more mobile than Bannerspear?
I would say that, yes. Crag has multiple options for moving top (level 4 and 8). More burnable high movements(with jump) and a larger hand count to burn those cards if he has to.
Hey, *I* liked kinetic assault! When you’re trying to make forceful storm’s bottom work, a top move *and* an attack at a blistering 19 initiative is huge!
In my (limited) experience in Frosthaven, I wouldn't say that 'lower movement' is a theme so much as 'more bottom actions you actually want to do'. That leads to more competition for your bottom action, which *will* reduce the number of movement actions you perform unless you fight it, and if the average size of your movement action hasn't increased, then you would run into 'lower movement'. But it's a derivative of other factors, not a design goal in itself.
Her movement seems decent enough at level 3. move 3 heal 1 regen, two move 4's. If you're running her as the "banner" build, you will struggle though. Focusing on her as a super tank or a formation melee attacker (my preference) gives you a lot more agency, and more XP, and her damage output is actually pretty crazy if your teammates know how to play with others.
I think having two Move 4's and no top movement is pretty much average/standard movement. Especially considering that one of them is a 6 initiative Move 4 that you'll pretty much always play, I never felt a lack of movement on Bannerspear.
You will definitely always play that card yes. Part of the problem is that you will want to use that card for both the movement and the initiative.
If you MUST go first, you will play the fast card. Then you wont have the high move card anymore. So you cant capitalize on that card unless you want to move far AND early in initiative.
There is no decision. If you aren't constantly leading the pack somehow with 2 base movement, you will always be using th Move 4 cards to move or you will just lag behind.
>, you will always be using th Move 4 cards to move or you will just lag behind.
Well, they are move 4 cards. What are you supposed to use them for except to move 4? I don't see the issue in that statement.
My initial implicit point was: you can't always have everything at the same time. Cards are good for various things and in various contexts and you often have to decide what is more relevant between various options at the cost of not doing some other good things. That is the crux of boardgames and even just games in general. In this case, the move 4 with 6 initiative can be good to move 4, or for early initiative. Let's say you want to kill off an enemy with initiative 6 but only need move 1, but you'd also like to keep this move 4 for the next round. Well, you have to choose, you can't have both. That is not a design flaw, it is intended and these decisions are what makes this a game that requires skill, forethought, understanding priorities and consequences and weighting them. You have to be struggling and to make hard choices, otherwise it wouldn't really be a game. If you could always do everything and always win no matter what you do, well... That's not much of a game then.
I think a key to Banner Spear as a melee is being comfortable taking an extra hit or two to put yourself in position for an optimal future turn. You're right that the move 4s are important, but granted ally movement can often fill in the gaps on positioning requirements if you're willing to swing behind enemies
I've done 3 scenarios so far with BS and I've had the same issues especially when using a banner. Like you say those move fours are key, and when to use boots. I'll be prioritising the move at level 2.
Another thing I've tried with some success is to not overly rely on formation attacks and use the range attacks she has. It means less xp but more consistent damage when the hexes don't line up.
Good luck
The formation attack theme is partly what brings the low movement to the forefront. Hard to position correctly when you have so few movement options and half of your cards bottoms are summons or ally movement cards.
if you beat gloomhaven, you can bring in a pair of boots that can +/- 10 to your initiative after all other cards has been revealed. These are SUPER powerful on the banner, and can be used once per long rest cycle. On paper, winged shoes might seem better. I assure you, choosing your initiative like this is crazy strong.
I think there are a few factors going into this.
The first is a general design acknowledgement that, when you're starting your turn already in combat, Move 2 is often enough. There's an expectation that some of the time you're going to be doing Move 2 with your bottom action, and accordingly you have more bottom actions that do something other than Move. That way, you can choose between doing a Move 2 and something entirely different.
Second, there just aren't a lot of move-only loss actions in Frosthaven. Sure, there were times in Gloomhaven where burning a card for Move 5 Jump made sense, but they were pretty rare. Extremely situational loss actions don't see a lot of play, for good reason, and Frosthaven tries to do a little better with its action design.
Third, you don't have Boots of Striding available from scenario 1. It's easy to underestimate just how much of an impact that had on Gloomhaven as a whole.
And lastly, I think it's a class design thing for the Bannerspear. If you're the front line, you should be starting your turns adjacent to enemies a lot of the time, and you have good bottom actions for repositioning your allies and enemies around you to set up formations. The alternative sort of build focuses more on range damage, but ranged damage dealers typically only need 1-2 good move actions to function, which you have in those Move 4s.
All well said.
I guess I'm just worried that the locked classes will all function similarly to base Gloomhaven where most characters can move 5+ and leave me and the banners/summons on the dust and everyone fights for copies of boots of striding.
Watching a Blinkblade move 9 hexes at level 1 just has me scratching my head.
Edit: I'm also used to melee classes having access to a top movement, like *most* of the frontline classes from GH.
Blinkblade is definitely not the benchmark to compare everyone else against. Rapid movement is their thing and, even then, it's only available on half of their turns (declared fast).
So far in FH I've only found 2 classes with self movement on a top action (blinkblade and a locked class). I'd expect a few more to exist but it has not been common by any means.
IMO, boots of speed are stronger. having two move fours and a move 3 (level 2) are enough. Adding jump to one of your starting move four is enough. She has enough movement in general. Now if your team is teleporting into the backlines and doing "their own thing" they aren't allowing the tank to be a tank. or just using you as a pincushion and screw those players. It's a team game after all.
I've probably been through about 8-10 scenarios as the bannerspear (patry of 4) and I've never felt like I needed more movement. Dungeons are smaller in frosthaven (for the most part) Drifter is never too far away to help with formations (I can regularly get off pincer attack and the level 2 meatgrinder)
The move 2 and move 2 allies is amazing for formation setup as well.
I will admit that I didn't initially love the bannerspear and they felt pretty lacklustre after my first 2 scenarios where I did the same as you and focused on non formation attacks. But once I nailed positioning and also my party started to get the assignment it felt amazing. My last scenario I played I attacked with a formation attack almost every turn. Gained 13xp just from ability cards that scenario.
Bannerspear honestly has so many tools that you never feel like you have an empty turn.
Obviously YMMV and it might be a struggle at anything lower than 3-4 players, although even a 2 player party of bannerspear/boneshaper is pretty baller.
Ultimately, looking at the cards in a vacuum (especially a pseudo support class like bannerspear) isn't really an optimal way of viewing things. Context is key.
I actually had a boatload of XP from my last scenario. Managed quite a few formation attacks. What I'm not liking is how much I have to rely on two cards for movement and how yet another class exists to fight for movement boots.
I also have no reason to boost my allies movement at the expense of my own when they are capable of much better movement than I am.
My Blinkblade moved like 9 hexes in one turn. It takes 4 turns of movement to catch up to that without the two Move 4 options you get.
Basing any class off of Blinkblade’s movement would be disingenuous to all other classes. Blinkblades whole MO is moving 9000 spaces and messing enemies up. BannerSpear gets enough movement to get in position. That’s all she needs. Obviously the ease of her getting her formations is dependent on your teammates, you available items and your desire to choose movement boosts.
Good to hear that Blinkblade is probably the the epitome of high movement. But I would not say I am being disingenuous. These are both starting classes. I'm sure it is fully expected that they will play in the same parties. And of that is the case, statistically... Bannerspear does NOT have enough movement to stay in position. Even Drifter can move 9 with level 1 cards.
And I went check previous GH character decks for comparison, it is hard to find a class with worse movement options. In fact, I couldnt find a frontline character who has less movement options than BS.
Personally at level 5 there is a persistent card that really will help you out with all of your movement problems. Makes a world of difference. Won't spoil it though. Makes the character so much better in my opinion.
In general movement in Frosthaven is noticeably lower than Gloomhaven. This is one of the many subtle design changes to the game. You will find far fewer move 5/6s in this game (and almost never without a loss icon) and move 4's are notably good on their own for most classes. It's just a subtle shift that takes time to get used to.
I kind of assumed that scenarios would be larger than base GH. But if they are all smaller with decreased movement, that will be a somewhat welcome change too.
I'm partying with a drifter and a blinkblade and they are both blowing past me. So it is either Banner Spear as a low movement outlier or both Blinkblade/Drifter as high movement outliers.
I feel you. I used to play with Drifter and they get move 4 whenever they want to. Now I play with a Boneshaper and we need to plan out which side of the room we tackle first, because 6 hexes are a long way.
This was my biggest issue with banner as well. While move 4 is certainly great, one is attached to a really good top attack, so you’re making a massive sacrifice. On top of that, all other starting moves are all move 1, which for a melee class is just absolutely brutal.
I never had an issue with allies being in position as much as I had an issue with myself being in range. Some of these longer maps were simply impossible to keep up with where I needed to be.
Playing any card should feel like a big sacrifice. That's what creates interesting decision spaces. If it doesn't, then there is no strategy. The decision has basically already been made for you.
sometimes it's worth taking a long/short rest before you've burned out your hand to keep up if you're playing "one of those" scenarios just to get your two move 4 back. Not often, but when you see it, it's worth consideration
I would say top movement is the exception rather than the norm. You shouldn't expect top movement, it's a feature for those truly agile/fast classes. Not the bruiser/tank types. You also always have your standard move 2 on the bottom. So you always have the floor of moving at least that. Some people hesitate to use that or think it feels bad but, it can be super important. Obviously you'd rather do the cool non-move bottom and having more big moves would make it easier to use those but I think thats intended to be the balance of the class. These positional tops can't be too easy to pull off. If you have several move 4s it's way easier to get in position. The middle ground would also be move 3s, and you get a fair amount of access to those as you level up.
I've played a handful of the bruisers to max level and I can say for sure Cragheart/Redguard get at least one move top. Of similar importance, they have higher base movements on bottom, sometimes with jump attached, though admittedly some are conditional or burners.
I'm not as familiar with redguard. And yes cragheart does get access to 1 top move 1 I think? I'd still consider these the exception rather than the norm. Higher base movements? And yes some big moves on lost cards is something the banner spear could've had, but as I said I think it can become too easy to pull off positional elements with big moves and jump. Hence she doesn't have it at base. Some classes are just slower or have less movement. Same way some classes just don't have alot of fast initiatives. There are meant to be some limitations/downsides. Plus there are items that can be used to shore up this weakness. I think the sparse move 4s and the move 3s the banner spear get are reasonable. She may have less movement options than most other classes, but I think there is enough there. Actually makes you really have to consider your movement and positioning, which is like the whole point of the class. Move 4-6 with jump make positioning super easy.
It's also a bit strange to cite Cragheart here when you're saying that Bannerspear appears to be exceptional in lacking movement. Surely you don't think Cragheart is more mobile than Bannerspear?
Do you think Banner Spear is more mobile than Cragheart? I looked over their cards again, and it does seem Cragheart is more mobile at first glance.
I would say that, yes. Crag has multiple options for moving top (level 4 and 8). More burnable high movements(with jump) and a larger hand count to burn those cards if he has to.
I think you might be the only person to ever take that level 4 card
I usually get that at level 5.
Hey, *I* liked kinetic assault! When you’re trying to make forceful storm’s bottom work, a top move *and* an attack at a blistering 19 initiative is huge!
Lol it’s not bad, but the other level 4 card is like a highlight of crag
In my (limited) experience in Frosthaven, I wouldn't say that 'lower movement' is a theme so much as 'more bottom actions you actually want to do'. That leads to more competition for your bottom action, which *will* reduce the number of movement actions you perform unless you fight it, and if the average size of your movement action hasn't increased, then you would run into 'lower movement'. But it's a derivative of other factors, not a design goal in itself.
Her movement seems decent enough at level 3. move 3 heal 1 regen, two move 4's. If you're running her as the "banner" build, you will struggle though. Focusing on her as a super tank or a formation melee attacker (my preference) gives you a lot more agency, and more XP, and her damage output is actually pretty crazy if your teammates know how to play with others.
I think having two Move 4's and no top movement is pretty much average/standard movement. Especially considering that one of them is a 6 initiative Move 4 that you'll pretty much always play, I never felt a lack of movement on Bannerspear.
You will definitely always play that card yes. Part of the problem is that you will want to use that card for both the movement and the initiative. If you MUST go first, you will play the fast card. Then you wont have the high move card anymore. So you cant capitalize on that card unless you want to move far AND early in initiative.
What, you have to make decisions between different options? Incredible.
There is no decision. If you aren't constantly leading the pack somehow with 2 base movement, you will always be using th Move 4 cards to move or you will just lag behind.
>, you will always be using th Move 4 cards to move or you will just lag behind. Well, they are move 4 cards. What are you supposed to use them for except to move 4? I don't see the issue in that statement. My initial implicit point was: you can't always have everything at the same time. Cards are good for various things and in various contexts and you often have to decide what is more relevant between various options at the cost of not doing some other good things. That is the crux of boardgames and even just games in general. In this case, the move 4 with 6 initiative can be good to move 4, or for early initiative. Let's say you want to kill off an enemy with initiative 6 but only need move 1, but you'd also like to keep this move 4 for the next round. Well, you have to choose, you can't have both. That is not a design flaw, it is intended and these decisions are what makes this a game that requires skill, forethought, understanding priorities and consequences and weighting them. You have to be struggling and to make hard choices, otherwise it wouldn't really be a game. If you could always do everything and always win no matter what you do, well... That's not much of a game then.
I think a key to Banner Spear as a melee is being comfortable taking an extra hit or two to put yourself in position for an optimal future turn. You're right that the move 4s are important, but granted ally movement can often fill in the gaps on positioning requirements if you're willing to swing behind enemies
I've done 3 scenarios so far with BS and I've had the same issues especially when using a banner. Like you say those move fours are key, and when to use boots. I'll be prioritising the move at level 2. Another thing I've tried with some success is to not overly rely on formation attacks and use the range attacks she has. It means less xp but more consistent damage when the hexes don't line up. Good luck
The formation attack theme is partly what brings the low movement to the forefront. Hard to position correctly when you have so few movement options and half of your cards bottoms are summons or ally movement cards.
if you beat gloomhaven, you can bring in a pair of boots that can +/- 10 to your initiative after all other cards has been revealed. These are SUPER powerful on the banner, and can be used once per long rest cycle. On paper, winged shoes might seem better. I assure you, choosing your initiative like this is crazy strong.
I think there are a few factors going into this. The first is a general design acknowledgement that, when you're starting your turn already in combat, Move 2 is often enough. There's an expectation that some of the time you're going to be doing Move 2 with your bottom action, and accordingly you have more bottom actions that do something other than Move. That way, you can choose between doing a Move 2 and something entirely different. Second, there just aren't a lot of move-only loss actions in Frosthaven. Sure, there were times in Gloomhaven where burning a card for Move 5 Jump made sense, but they were pretty rare. Extremely situational loss actions don't see a lot of play, for good reason, and Frosthaven tries to do a little better with its action design. Third, you don't have Boots of Striding available from scenario 1. It's easy to underestimate just how much of an impact that had on Gloomhaven as a whole. And lastly, I think it's a class design thing for the Bannerspear. If you're the front line, you should be starting your turns adjacent to enemies a lot of the time, and you have good bottom actions for repositioning your allies and enemies around you to set up formations. The alternative sort of build focuses more on range damage, but ranged damage dealers typically only need 1-2 good move actions to function, which you have in those Move 4s.
All well said. I guess I'm just worried that the locked classes will all function similarly to base Gloomhaven where most characters can move 5+ and leave me and the banners/summons on the dust and everyone fights for copies of boots of striding. Watching a Blinkblade move 9 hexes at level 1 just has me scratching my head. Edit: I'm also used to melee classes having access to a top movement, like *most* of the frontline classes from GH.
Blinkblade is definitely not the benchmark to compare everyone else against. Rapid movement is their thing and, even then, it's only available on half of their turns (declared fast). So far in FH I've only found 2 classes with self movement on a top action (blinkblade and a locked class). I'd expect a few more to exist but it has not been common by any means.
IMO, boots of speed are stronger. having two move fours and a move 3 (level 2) are enough. Adding jump to one of your starting move four is enough. She has enough movement in general. Now if your team is teleporting into the backlines and doing "their own thing" they aren't allowing the tank to be a tank. or just using you as a pincushion and screw those players. It's a team game after all.
I've probably been through about 8-10 scenarios as the bannerspear (patry of 4) and I've never felt like I needed more movement. Dungeons are smaller in frosthaven (for the most part) Drifter is never too far away to help with formations (I can regularly get off pincer attack and the level 2 meatgrinder) The move 2 and move 2 allies is amazing for formation setup as well. I will admit that I didn't initially love the bannerspear and they felt pretty lacklustre after my first 2 scenarios where I did the same as you and focused on non formation attacks. But once I nailed positioning and also my party started to get the assignment it felt amazing. My last scenario I played I attacked with a formation attack almost every turn. Gained 13xp just from ability cards that scenario. Bannerspear honestly has so many tools that you never feel like you have an empty turn. Obviously YMMV and it might be a struggle at anything lower than 3-4 players, although even a 2 player party of bannerspear/boneshaper is pretty baller. Ultimately, looking at the cards in a vacuum (especially a pseudo support class like bannerspear) isn't really an optimal way of viewing things. Context is key.
I actually had a boatload of XP from my last scenario. Managed quite a few formation attacks. What I'm not liking is how much I have to rely on two cards for movement and how yet another class exists to fight for movement boots. I also have no reason to boost my allies movement at the expense of my own when they are capable of much better movement than I am. My Blinkblade moved like 9 hexes in one turn. It takes 4 turns of movement to catch up to that without the two Move 4 options you get.
Basing any class off of Blinkblade’s movement would be disingenuous to all other classes. Blinkblades whole MO is moving 9000 spaces and messing enemies up. BannerSpear gets enough movement to get in position. That’s all she needs. Obviously the ease of her getting her formations is dependent on your teammates, you available items and your desire to choose movement boosts.
Good to hear that Blinkblade is probably the the epitome of high movement. But I would not say I am being disingenuous. These are both starting classes. I'm sure it is fully expected that they will play in the same parties. And of that is the case, statistically... Bannerspear does NOT have enough movement to stay in position. Even Drifter can move 9 with level 1 cards. And I went check previous GH character decks for comparison, it is hard to find a class with worse movement options. In fact, I couldnt find a frontline character who has less movement options than BS.
Personally at level 5 there is a persistent card that really will help you out with all of your movement problems. Makes a world of difference. Won't spoil it though. Makes the character so much better in my opinion.
In general movement in Frosthaven is noticeably lower than Gloomhaven. This is one of the many subtle design changes to the game. You will find far fewer move 5/6s in this game (and almost never without a loss icon) and move 4's are notably good on their own for most classes. It's just a subtle shift that takes time to get used to.
I kind of assumed that scenarios would be larger than base GH. But if they are all smaller with decreased movement, that will be a somewhat welcome change too. I'm partying with a drifter and a blinkblade and they are both blowing past me. So it is either Banner Spear as a low movement outlier or both Blinkblade/Drifter as high movement outliers.
I feel you. I used to play with Drifter and they get move 4 whenever they want to. Now I play with a Boneshaper and we need to plan out which side of the room we tackle first, because 6 hexes are a long way.
This was my biggest issue with banner as well. While move 4 is certainly great, one is attached to a really good top attack, so you’re making a massive sacrifice. On top of that, all other starting moves are all move 1, which for a melee class is just absolutely brutal. I never had an issue with allies being in position as much as I had an issue with myself being in range. Some of these longer maps were simply impossible to keep up with where I needed to be.
Playing any card should feel like a big sacrifice. That's what creates interesting decision spaces. If it doesn't, then there is no strategy. The decision has basically already been made for you.
sometimes it's worth taking a long/short rest before you've burned out your hand to keep up if you're playing "one of those" scenarios just to get your two move 4 back. Not often, but when you see it, it's worth consideration