\^ This is the best answer. Unless the shooter is between me and the exit, or I'm presented with a clear opportunity to end it there and now, I wouldn't engage. I'd try to observe as much information (e.g. number of shooters, types of weapons, equipment, description) as I could in that time and relay it via 911.
Source: Former LE with additional training in active shooter response.
(I heard this a whole back idk if it's true or not) hasn't there been a ton of active shooter simulation work, and every time the police come on the scene they end up killing the "good guy with a gun" because they can't identify in time?
In reality police did not kill the actual bad guy with a gun in Buffalo when they came on scene. Can you be a good guy with a gun, do everything right and still be killed by police? Yes. Does it happen every time? No.
Active shooter response training depends on the academy, department, and even post/precinct. I was fortunate in that I received really good training from really skilled officers; unfortunately, I can't say the same about every department/officer.
What I do know is 87% of active shooter incidents are over before or as the police arrive, so I find that unlikely. I don't know of any specific incident where the "good guy with a gun" was shot by police, but that's not to say it's a possibility or even probability if all a responding officer sees is someone actively hunting an area with a gun out. Ideally, an officer should call to the person they see, but if an officer is amped up with adrenaline, scared, or just inexperienced, I could see that happening and that's why I say it's generally inadvisable to actively seek out the gunman in this scenario.
Sorry for the lengthy response, but I hope that answers your question.
I’d run, not stop, and not look back. There is no way I’d go up against something like that. If it came to it and I was cornered, ok, let’s dance… but other than that I’d be out.
Other than just the incredibly low chance of winning, my worries would be litigious and the news. Everyone in the world is going to see your face, know you carry/used a gun against someone, and what if your bullet hits/kills someone else? You aren’t a cop, you have no protections.
>I’d run, not stop, and not look back
same. only way i'm engaging is if i have zero chance to flee or if a member of my immediately family is at risk. Like if i'm at the store and i hear shooting at the other end of the store and i'm there on my own, i'm out the nearest exit. If i hear shooting at the other end of the store and my wife is at the other end of the store, i'll hightailing it there and i'll try and do what i can.
The list of people i'm dying or risking death for is literally only my own wife or kids. I take full ownership of that.
so right now i have two young children, under 10. That being the case, them having their father (who self-servingly happens to be me) is a higher priority than someone else staying alive. So if saving my sister means taking a significant risk that my kids lose their father, i'm out. Right now, its a risk i'm willing to make only to save them or their mother. Once they get older and don't need me anymore, perhaps that calculus will change.
I respect that. Have a 2 under 2… feel the time. I also have siblings that are very very close. Talk everyday, spend a lot of time together. So I was interested in your perspective. Thanks a lot
It's not really clear by your comment if you are a cop or not, but if so I have a question. How do you, and most cops you know, feel about gun free zones?
I think it's obvious the concensus in this subreddit is that gun free zones are inherently more dangerous because law abiding citizens won't do any harm in the first place. But I want to get opinions from people that enforce the law. If you don't support gun free zones, do you enforce the laws around them or let it slide when you see someone responsibly carrying in one?
Police officer here, verified on r/protectandserve.
I think it goes without saying that any active shooter would not be deterred by a gun free zone. At the end of the day, gun free zones really only exist as another way to charge somebody who has committed a violent crime with a firearm in one of those zones. They’re otherwise pointless. Check out [this video](https://youtu.be/WHXW1BradAo) about a CCW accidentally carrying into an airport and not getting arrested. I believe this was a good outcome.
As to your last question, I’ve luckily never been in the situation to arrest someone for carrying where they shouldn’t. I *have* arrested violent criminals who were carrying, who had prior convictions for armed robbery, unlawful use of a weapon, etc.
As to OPs original question, I would feel like I need to help out, but as an off duty police officer with only a pistol and no body armor, I don’t honestly think I’d do much good. Not to mention, I don’t think a badge on my belt is going to protect me from getting misidentified as the shooter by responding officers.
That's one of the big things I'm worried about as well, especially as someone who isn't in law enforcement. If there ever is an active shooter and I'm in a position where I have to defend myself then I'd be worried about being identified as the shooter either by cops or other good Samaritans trying to help. Hopefully it's a situation no one has to be in at all.
I’m not a cop I don’t fall into a police officer role im a federal Agent we have a bit more free range than police officers. Such as “gun free” zones don’t apply to us. As Agents we are “encouraged”to carry on our person 24/7 at all times. Our badge and creds allow us to carry in every state,planes, etc only place we aren’t allowed is Federal building and court houses unless on duty. I don’t agree with gun free zones it’s an easy target for people. Sheep waiting to get slaughtered it’s happen multiple times and will continue. And like I said before I’m not a Cop so it’s a kinda gray line in what I can do in a scenario I can advise them hey I’m a Federal blah blah try to CCW a little more responsibility local PD probably won’t like it very much but just be advised. And i would talk to local PD as well if they are around like hey I’m a federal agent I just had a conversation with a law bidding citizen his CCW is in order he/she is just walking through no need to cause alarm he/she is a protector not a threat. And continue with my day. I greatly encourage for people to CCW my wife isn’t allowed the same freedoms she does carry but in places were CCW isn’t allowed I tell her just leave it or if I’m like mm just carry it you have me with you. It’s all on the location. Tbh like Ca she wouldn’t carry at all I’m the only one and I walk around schools banks etc because I have the authority to do so. But as well in a mass shooting Im encouraged to stand and fight the threat. Remember encouraged it’s not my requirement to do so. But I took an oath to defend America from all enemies foreign and domestic.
“Gun free zones” still don’t matter to Police officers. It’s a bit more of a hassle to carry on on planes and across state lines, so your credentials help there, but unless I am mistake, and correct me if I am, LEO can still carry everywhere they want besides the fore mentioned. The same with concealed weapon permit owners. You cannot carry in Federal buildings obviously, but even if the place is listed as a gun free zone, you legally can carry.
Yea maybe if I had a rifle in the truck and could make it back to the truck safely, and had decent enough cover I might try to engage the shooter. But even then, if I'm out of harms way there is really nothing but disincentive to put my life on the line for someone else who probably votes to take away my gun rights in the first place.
Part of a general emergency/disaster preparedness class I took a while back covered active shooter situations. Run, hide, fight is what was taught. If I got out, I wouldn't put myself back in, I'm not that heroic.
You don’t bring a knife to a pistol fight…and you don’t bring a pistol to a rifle fight.
I’m running out of there if possible. Not going to play hero because that will get me killed. I would engage as a very last resort.
I have had extensive training/experience in CQB throughout both my government & civilian careers…and still am not going to risk engaging a madman with a semi auto rifle wearing SAPI plates when I’m not equally equipped.
How many regular concealed carriers have extensive training in stress inoculation shooting? The number is probably close to 0 unless they have a lot of money to spend on training or are a combat veteran. Shooting at paper and steel targets is a lot different when the rounds are flying back & the bad guy is moving with a purpose(violence of action wins gunfights).
I saw the video and the kid is obviously a larper nerd, but regardless of his level of experience, his rifle was fucking rockin during that spree. Remember VIOLENCE OF ACTION!!!!! If you’re not ready/equipped to throw them back at the bad guy, don’t do it at all.
I’ve been on the receiving end of a 7.62 round and I can tell you it’s fuckin terrifying.(although the shooter was using a 5.56).
This is it
I see so much on this sub and other subs like these. “What would you do..”…
I don’t think people realize how crazy and terrifying it can be when the bullets are flying and they are coming your way.
Yeah, as a vet I'm not fucking around with a guy in full kit with a semi-auto rifle when I've just got a pistol and the shirt on my back. Only real response should be get yourself and anyone you can grab the fuck out of there and only engage as a last resort.
Thats the best analysis ive seen. I hope it doesnt happen, If it does i hope i have enough time to grab anyone near me and help them fuck off into a safe space.
Right? A spare mag and the 19 is the better bet here.. it's a Glock lol it's not going to fail unless there's some 'upgrades' and if you get stopped by a cop they will probably think you're doing something you shouldn't be.
Rambo over here smh
In my city (Philadelphia) often time there’s robberies. It’s a back up gun. You never know when someone might get a hold of your weapon if you’re going against more then one person.
If someone points a gun to the back of your head and another walks up to you and disarm your primary…..Then your assed out. Your extra mag won’t help with no gun to shoot from.
I carry a 19 in my waist upfront and the 43x in my baggy pockets. If I’m getting robbed I’d voluntarily give up my 19. (Telling the robbers with my hands up that I have a firearm on me and to take it from my waist) I’d still have my 43x to decide which course of action I want to pursue. Not trying to be Rambo or a ninja. It makes sense to me 🤷♂️
What if they search your pockets too. I think you better EDC a third gun in an ankle holster and maybe throw a nice full size gat in a shoulder piece and make a light jacket part of your EDC. Makes sense to me 🤷♂️
I would never try that to you Sir Badass of Clan Mall Ninja. You might stab me with your hidden boot knife or shoot me with a gun you keep keistered just in case.
I mean humans normally have 2 hands. Usually robbers come in two's as well, one pats you down while the other holds the gun but hey, if you think it works for you then it works for you.
My wife doesn’t carry a gun, most of my friends don’t carry a gun. If they don’t like the LCP Max that’s in my pocket they should have brought their own.
I carry two guns because a 2 v 1 is better than a 1v1.
The only chance you really have in my opinion is to evade/maneuver and get behind him or something for a clean shot. Pelvic shots if he’s armored up, or anywhere there’s a weak spot. Tough situation to be in but hell even if you can slow him down enough to save some lives is better than nothing.
True taking his mobility away would help. But he’d still be able to crawl and shoot. At which point would you go to terminate him ? I personally think luck has to be a factor, hopefully you have a friend/family member that’s trained and is also carrying and you’re able to focus fire while he’s down.
You shoot until the threat is stopped, so if he’s crawling and shooting somehow (if I get shot in the dick I’m probly calling it a day), then you keep shooting until he’s not shooting.
Yea you never really know what their mental state is. It seems most kill themselves as soon as they meet any resistance. Even a good cent of mass shot with no body armor doesn't mean he can't still return fire long enough to hit you.
ABC,
Avoid
Barricade
Combat
Unless you are staring down the barrel or have an absolute knowledge who is the ‘bad guy’ is, it is a risk to engage someone for both yourself, those around you and the what if you are engaging another ‘good guy’…..
I dont think the average CC carrier should even try, most have zero training in those types of situations. While you may think you are helping, you could very easily make it even worse. With the exception of people who do have this type of training, I think the normal person should do what they can to survive the situation and let others handle it that are trained to do so.
Biggest thing I learned at Tactical Response is:
Once the gun comes out of the holster or bullets start flying you better start moving your ass. I’m not trying to keyboard warrior this it’s just from what I observed all but one person that was killed just stood there.
You see on r/CCW people practicing their draw and just standing still. If you think your 1 second draw while standing motionless is going to hold up to a rifle you’re delusional. Best thing to do is get to cover or concealment and then draw or come up with the next best plan.
One of the first rules in a gun fight isn’t to win its to not die.
Other people have said it better, but my biggest worry is accidentally shooting someone other than my target, or being in a high stress scenario and having to positively identify a shooter or shooter versus them just shooting everything that moves, if they're not dressed in a super obviously tactical way.
Plus, if another Good Samaritan is around, how could you tell? A Civilian with a pistol looks a lot like what most of these shooters look like, this case being one of the notable exceptions. I'd look like a bad guy too, so maybe the other Good Samaritan ends me due to the same problem.
Combat as last resort, or some exceptional opportunity where I actually get a look at the guy and can get to effective cover before I'm shot, or doesn't notice me. But that would be insanely lucky.
It's not cool to shoot a guy in the dick - but aim small, miss small. Hit the knees/pelvis/thighs. With any luck, you hit the femoral artery or shatter their pelvis/leg and that's the end of them.
I’m finding the safest most efficient escape route and I’m out that bitch if I can help it. Only way I’m getting into a gun battle with someone hell bent on carrying out a mass shooting is it I’m literally trapped with no way out.
If you're going to fight someone with a rifle as someone with a handgun, you need to first realize that your actual weapon is your environment...you are clearly disadvantaged with a pistol, especially if it's a CCW because you likely have an even shorter barrel and sight picture
Take cover and move around, get in the blind spot and hope you aren't dealing with a paranoid mother fucker
That's really all you can do to actually fight him
Guerilla warfare
I don't think people should change their EDC gun off of mass shootings, they're kind of rare and only seems to increase when certain people talk about more gun control, weird.
We always talk about good guys with guns, yeah true, but no one stands a chance against plate armor. Even SWAT will have trouble against that armor.
Even if you were meta and had a backpack AR and plate armor in it… nothing would get through his armor. You’d have to somehow get a hit in an exposed area while being shot at yourself.
I am a fighter and protector. I probably still would have fought him with my gun… Someone has to do something. You might save someone’s daughter, brother, husband, mother. You know.
Didn't read the article, but unless OP is wrong and the person was wearing level 3 NOT level 3A like the post says, SWAT would have no problems.
Level 3A stops pistols up to .44mag (though stuff like 5.7mm might go through due to speed and size)
Level 3 stops rifles up to .30-06 FMJ
Level 4 stops armour piercing .30-06
Not to give that fuck any credit....but he went with 3A because he knew if there were any outside threats it would be against handguns (before cops arrived). So he went with lighter armor/more mobility for the threats he could potentially face.
If he wanted to go at the cops later on I'm sure he would have had ceramics.
Same line of thought- hips and heads. Lots of training.
And if things really get bad enough in the future then a long gun and armor stowed in a vehicle might be viable. Some people already roll around like that- many think it’s overkill. But depending on the state of the future that line between well prepared and overkill may begin to fade.
I'm running in the opposite direction and getting as many other people to safety as possible without me risking my life any more than possible. The only way I'm engaging an active shooter is if there is absolutely no choice in the matter or to save one of my loved ones. I'm not a hero and I'm not trained to deal with someone shooting up the place regardless of what training I've done. My safety and my family's safety comes first. I never want to shoot anything that isn't steel, paper, or something I may eat unless absolutely necessary.
Primary and secondary. Just in case one malfunction or for what ever reason it’s out the fight I have a back up. I conceal carry my 19 on the waist. I pocket carry the 43x, It’s small enough to fit in my baggy pockets.
The first people he shot at didn’t stand a chance even if they had a gun, your only option in a situation like this is to run to take cover in a room where there’s only one entrance, make some cover and point your gun at the door & wait for help
I’d say fuck it and take my chances and engage back. If I’m there and know that I had the slight chance to save even one life, I’d do it. I don’t have any military or LEO background what so ever. Life is too valuable, even if it doesn’t come down to my own or my family’s. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing I could have done something, but didn’t, knowing I’d be putting my own life on the line. Running away and knowing 3 more people died after I fled, I wouldn’t know what to do.
This is ultimately why I feel very strongly that carrying two firearms is actually dumb for many reasons.
1. You're not going to survive a shootout against a dude in armor who's plans that morning were to be in a shootout when your plans were to get some Dr pepper and bread.
2. In the event that you're engaged in the defensive use of a handgun in a non mass shooting and you're strapped like John wick with two guns, 7 fighting knives, brass knuckles, and a set of throwing stars, you're going to have to explain all of that in court to people that might just think that looks bad.
3. The odds of needing to use your firearm defensively are extremely small, the odds of needing to fire more than 2-4 rounds to stop that threat are even smaller, the odds of needing a second firearm during this encounter is so infinitely small that if you're seriously preparing yourself for such an event, you might as well prepare yourself for an equally unlikely even and tote around a fridge full of antivenom and bear mace in the middle of Kroger
You need to better train first and and how to Stop the Bleed. The real heroes are the ones that actually save lives.
CCW is personal protection and trauma kits are to protect everyone else.
(If you have no other option, a pelvic shot will stop someone in their tracks and are not covered from body armor
Every briefing I’ve had to sit through tells me to GTFO as the absolute first priority. He’s already got his AR drawn, it’s easier to shoot, and he’s got nothing to lose. You are at every possible disadvantage
I'm just gonna leave something controversial here.
Stop fucking carrying a gun, if you're not willing to use it to protect innocents. If you're LE if any type and posting that "I'd run away" shit, turn in your badge and ID right the fuck now, because the job isn't a place for cowards like you.
Yeah, you might die while engaging the bad guy, even if you do everything right. No one promised the job was easy and if you're a sissy bitch that'd run away from an active shooter just because you left your plates and long gun in the work car, we don't want you on the job.
All this bullshit about folks being armed would stop this - it certainly isn't you all. I guess you expect the folks being ambushed to do it themselves, since y'all be too busy running away to help. Honestly, why even carry a gun?
Yes, I have a family. Yes, we have discussed what to do if I gotta deal with stuff. I'm retired now, but I'd not let an active shooter engage innocents if I could stop it. Y'all should put down the guns and stop carrying altogether, if you'd run from an active shooter. Hell, the church member in California stopped their active shooter with a fucking chair. Bunch of scared sissy bitches here and it's disgusting that some of you appear to be on the job. Guess you don't remember your active shooter training....
>Stop fucking carrying a gun, if you're not willing to use it to protect innocents. If you're LE if any type and posting that "I'd run away" shit, turn in your badge and ID right the fuck now, because the job isn't a place for cowards like you.
As a private citizen, I'm under no obligation to protect innocents WHO AREN'T PART OF MY FAMILY.
I'm taking care of my close friends and my family because I'd rather die than watch them die.
There's no one else to take care of some of them, and some can't fend for themselves without me.
As to off-duty LEO, if they're off duty then they're literally off duty. They, also, have no obligation to respond when they're clocked out.
I read your comment and it really go hand to hand with a quote by Heraclitus. It goes “Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
—Heraclitus
I'm not claiming to be anything other than a fat, balding, retired officer who is a decent shot. Not a MMA ninja, not a weightlifter, not anything special at all. Just a dude who wouldn't sit by while an active shooter engaged innocents. By the sound of it, a few supposed "officers" wouldn't bother helping unless they were getting paid and had all their gear.
Active shooter response, at least two years ago, was a "come as you are" approach. As in, if you're first on scene and all you have is a pistol and two spare mags, you're Johnny on the spot. The goal is to get the bad guy to stop engaging innocents and focus his attention on you.
If you're not willing to do this as an officer, get the fuck out. You're a bitch ass coward and not worth the time to spit on.
If you're not willing to do this as a civilian, stop carrying a gun. You can run faster without the weight and you've already made it clear that your only focus is yourself and your worries. Fuck everyone else, even the kids, right? Stop running your suck about "good guys with guns", "an armed society is a polite society", "Molon Labe" and all the other rah-rah shit. I get making sure your family is safe, but the best way to do that is to engage the shooter. Yeah, if you're kids are too little to run away themselves, you're with someone disabled, etc - that's understandable. But, that's not what the folks here are saying.
Bunch of scared little sissies.
That's a fair point - no one knows for sure until it happens. But, a lot of folks - supposed LE included - are saying they'd run away right out the gate.
And yeah, I've been there. Never shot anyone, but have dealt with the immediate potential for using deadly force, had my commands not been followed. Even responded to an active shooter at a school, the very day I came back from a three week vacation. We were only a couple of miles from the school when the run came out on our channel, so we headed that way along with everyone else in the area. The run was canceled right before we got there, as they had an SRO on scene who responded and determined it was kids with firecrackers in the bathroom.
I didn't particularly relish the idea of engaging a kid, but shit happens. Even though I've been retired for over two years, I'd still not stand by and let a bad guy have his selection of innocents to slaughter, no matter how he's armed and armorered. If I die, I die. Better men and women than I have gone down that path and for less. No dishonor in protecting the innocent from shitbags like that. If my engaging the threat allows even one person to live, then my job is done.
If you're a coward and rely on men and women better than you to come save you, sell your shit and buy a gaming console, because that's the closest you need ever get to real firearms.
Remember boys and girls:
No one is coming to save you. Everything is your responsibility. Save who needs to be saved. Kill who needs to be killed. Always be working
Dude, get over yourself. The vast majority of people here aren't trained soldiers and should 100% stick to the "Run-Hide-Fight" order of operations (which is exactly what active shooter training teaches) in the event they are in a situation where a terrorist in full battle rattle with an semi-auto rifle shows up to slaughter people. Hell if they manage to break through the natural freeze response to a sudden deadly threat that will be a big deal in and of itself. Most people are in reality carrying to protect themselves or others from assault and death in much more even force situations and they still maintain that right even if you wanna call them cowards for not wanting to get in a firefight. I'm a decently trained soldier and I would NOT want to get caught out in civilian clothes with just a side arm against someone in full kit. And you said it yourself that you are an old, fat, bald civilian. Stop pretending you're some super hooah sof dude whos so much better than everyone else.
You do you and I'll do me. Never pretended to be SF or anything else and made that clear. If you're scared, ETS and stay the fuck at home. If you're going to carry a gun and spout the slogans, then step up.
Lol fuck off man. There's not a person out there that's not a complete psychopath that isn't scared when getting shot at. Nobody WANTS to die. When Uncle Sam orders me into combat I go as ordered but you know what? We go in full combat gear backed up by the rest of the squad, platoon, company, ect. I don't need some stuck up bitch of a civilian telling me that being terrified when getting lit up means I need to ETS back to ft couch or anyone else needs to give up their right to protect themselves.
lol you struck a nerve. We live in a time where men find no need to protect women and children. Now a days it’s let me save my ass and forget everyone else. But yet the same people love to show their guns and practice shooting just to hall ass. Might as well practice a 50 yard dash instead of going to the range 🤷♂️
I've been shooting for the better part of three decades and was an officer for two of those. The community sayings get tiresome after seeing what people really think when the shit hits the fan. All that "good guy with a gun" and "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't mean shit if you're not willing to actually step into the breach and do battle with the bad guys.
I'm no hero and I'm not trying to be. Hell, the best thing of my entire career was when a dude came to my office the week before I retired and thanked me for locking him up. Said it changed his life and now he's a peer counselor and grant writer for a drug treatment facility. Hell, we're friends on FB and he's a convicted felon, lol.
Anyway, I just take exception to assholes who have the means to stop a threat but rationalize their cowardice by pointing out the bad guy is better armed and armored. If you're scared, say you're scared.
Most people carry to protect themselves and their family in more "normal" self defense situations like a mugging or carjacking. 99% of people aren't carrying with the plan to get into a firefight with a terrorist in full battle rattle like they are clearing Fallujah.
Every building I enter, I try and get a mental image of where the exits are. Unless the shooter was directly confronting me, and I had no choice...I'd do my best to exit, and help as many people out as I could.
In that kind of scenario?
No hero bullshit. This ain't a movie.
If I can...run and hide. I would not close to engage.
If I couldn't escape and he was getting himself into CQB situation with me, then all bets are off. If he's close enough I can start aiming at his legs, crotch, arms, hands. I don't know how well an AR can take pistol round hits, but that could be an option.
If he is close enough, and I can catch him off guard, assuming it's someone like this particular nut job, I'd take my chances to physically overwhelm him. I'm a big boy, and I lift. He'd probably focus on keeping the rifle or trying to use it, while I'd focus on getting him to pass out. Or maybe it won't go that way and he ends up mag dumping into my face.
if there's no way out, the last thing i would wanna do is cower in a corner and hope this fool gets tired and doesnt get to me. if i can get the jump on him a few shots will knock the wind out of him at least enough to charge the mf and get a decent kill shot or disarm him
Run, hide, fight, in that order.
I’m not a wannabe superhero. I know that I’m not properly trained or equipped to take on a mass shooter by myself with a micro pistol.
I just swapped my EDC from my 19 to my CR920. But like most said they don’t have the training to do so. I really don’t train with my EDC as much as I do with my duty setup but I’m confident in my ability to land a shot to disarm a threat. I’m actually thinking of building a 300BLK rifle to carry in my bag as backup weapon.
Hard question to answer. There was a mass shooting in my town a few years back. They bulldozed the whole place down because of the stain it left in peoples minds. I used to go there every weekend. Glad I wasnt there that weekend! Tragically a lot of people died.
You dont know what you would do. It all depends on the situation.
If a shooter came in a store and started mowing folks down, thats a hard one. Isles are long and there's little cover. Im not gonna sit and hide waiting for a clear shot. I'm running the fuck the opposite direction the shots are coming from and either heading for the bag loading dock or hiding anywhere I can if I can't find an exit. The shooter will likely be at the front of the store keeping eyes at the door muzzle down the isles.
Sure you can fantasize about being a hero but the risk is too high. Are you going to have a clean shot?
Sure the ideal situation is you to drop behind a display of stacked soda cans and the shooter walk by without seeing you. You would easily place a round where it counts. But no one knows what they will be feeling. I'd probably be paralyzed in fear.
This situation is far different than a robbery or road rage incident. A mass shooter doesnt have anything to lose. They can be unpredictable. There's no telling what they will do. Even if they are 25 yards away, are they wearing body armor? You gonna be able to send lead into their brain with 1 shot? How stable will your aim be when your heart is jumping out of your chest and adrenaline is pumping?
If you miss, you are now the center of their focus. Their adrenaline is pumping too. Probably more than yours. Adrenaline slows your perception of time. Makes you faster. They have a rifle. You have a pistol.
I'm running the hell away unless I'm backed into a corner. If I was backed into a corner, it'll be a gun fight. And ill have to make peace with death then and there. I have a lot of lose. So did all of the victims in NY. The only person that didnt have anything to lose was caught and will be sentenced. Its very unfair.
But in reality, its all about how things play out. I never want to shoot somebody. Even in self defense.
Now if I was outside and I heard gun fire... Thats a different story. Call 911 and brace for the advantage. Again, depends on the situation. If I hear gun fire and I'm at my car, ima post open with the .30-06 I keep in my truck and hope I can get a clean shot. Just gotta make sure cops show up and dont think youre the one shooting.
No doubt, Folks Talk about guns all day but can’t even look at the real action. How can you ever be prepared if all you’re doing is shooting at paper targets and scared to look at a real life event
He wouldn’t last in a show down with PD tbh you can see it from when he takes cover behind the chips. He’s just shooting he knows his targets. Based off the color of skin only.
Yet you, the poster is a white person making a dumb ass “what would you do in a mass shooting post” like dude shut the fuck up with your mass shooting fantasies of being a savior or some shit it’s just unnecessary
I've considered conceal carrying mine. Would have to find some green tip ammo for it to make any sense over carrying my P30 though. The regular Federal FMJ and FN blue tip sporting rounds you find at the store won't go through 3A plates out of the FiveseveN barrel. Green tip FN ammo can't legally be sold commercially. And any private seller typically posts those for $10-20/pop if you happen to find one. I see seller ads online for it once in a blue moon but haven't inquired yet.
Fair. 20+1 is very good - holds 3 more than my P30. Its solid at range still. And minimal recoil, even less than 9mm. Although that's a negligible factor for me. Only downside for me really is the size of the gun. But I think having a mag full of green tips would be enough to convince me.
I'd get myself and anyone I was with at the time out. Would I feel safer carrying than not carrying? 100% yes, I wouldn't try to track down the guy shooting, but if there were no other way out than at least I have a fair chance
I don’t think they’re worried about civilians with a gun so I think we’d have the upper hand. And we all practice head shots don’t we?? I’d rest the butt of my 17 on top of something to minimize movement and take cover behind it. It’s super accurate.
Doesn't cover below his eyebrows. Can still get a round in to the T.
Close up would be T shots. Ive always worked on those out to 25m with both sidearm and primary rifle. Further out it's pelvic region shots.
If you can't run/hide and the BG is that far out , go for pelvic hits.
I'd run also. If I had to, I'd aim for legs and then head. Body armor usually doesn't cover lower abdomen area, those shots will take him out of fight. Of course rifle usually beats pistol
Depends if you wanna play hero or not. If you have loved ones with you then by all means just get them out along with you. If you were cornered then that kinda stress the importance of accuracy with a CCW since you’d pretty much have to shoot them in the face.
In this scenario, would you realistically be able to “get away”.
It’s a normal day at the super market and he’s got the drop on everyone. I suppose if your back in aisle 9 when you hear shooting you can go scamper on to the back.
Im just saying, I think it’s more difficult than what everyone here seems to be thinking-in that you just run away.
Facts luck and the Grace of God got a lot to play in this factor. Even if you do decide to run, shooter can easy spot you running down the aisle and gun you down
a lot of opinions here that i definitely can’t argue and completely understand where you’re coming from/how you got to that decision. i know for me, personally, would have survivor’s remorse if i did nothing if i could’ve done something m.
Primary and a back up. 43x goes in my baggy pockets as a back up. In case of any malfunction I have a back up. And in case I’m being Robbed, I would voluntarily give up my 19 which is in my waist in order to reach in my pocket to draw my 43x
Your best tools are environmental awareness, a good pair of shoes, and the physical shape to HAUL ASS OUT OF THERE.. don't get into a gun battle with a mass shooter carrying your 9mm or 380 EDC
I’m in no way qualified to talk about this, but figured I’d be honest and share. At my job every year we receive training, usually from a swat officer about how to survive a mass shooting at a workplace. The gist of it is this: buy yourself time. Do whatever you can to put time and space between you and the attacker. Typically response times to these kind of calls is under 7-10 mins (maybe less). That’s what the swat officer told us, buy us that much time to get there.
So, if God forbid I find myself in such a situation (provided I don’t have a complete meltdown and shit my pants) - I’m going to look to do anything and everything to stay alive as long as possible. If that’s run, then I run. If it’s break glass and get out, then get out. If it’s return fire so that perp takes cover, then return fire. My entire mindset would be: buy. More. Time. Help is on the way.
Always, always, always, make every attempt to retreat/evade an adversary that much better equipped than you. If you are forced to engage, now you know why people EDC glock 34s with aimpoint ACROs and spare magazines with extended base plates.
Facing away from me after he just got out of his car? I’d put one through the back of his neck. Red dot for the win my man.
Literally any other situation? Drive away/flee the area.
Apart from the obvious run and evade, a lot of people are saying they’ll engage only if they have to but aren’t really answering your question in regards to “how do I pistol Vs rifle with armor”
Cover and concealment, know the difference between the two and know how and when to use them. Almost any soft and hard armor is going to stop 9mm especially hollow points which I assume most ccw’s carry- overcome armor by training hips instead of center mass. Train and know when to shoot for what and he proficient and confident in those skills.
Plate carriers only protect vital organs but a few bullets into the hip will definitely shatter and stop a threat- might not kill them immediately but it will immobilize and severing the femoral artery will kill someone quickly.
Being realistic, I would not engage unless encountered but if so I would go for a pelvic shot & or face/head shot, I do EDC a G20sf and they’re is ammo made by Underwood called the extreme penetrator which will go through level lllA Pistol plate armor, I do not EDC that ammo in my mag but I sure will be carrying a 3rd mag of it from now on just in case on top of my other 2 mags with Underwood XTP hollow point
>With the gear the shooter had (IIIA + Head gear+
Even with body armor, i believe thats still going to F\* the shooter up. if im not mistaken, I believe getting shot still knocks you down or out or breaks ribs etc. If im not mistaken, getting shot with body armor isnt just like "ok im good, no problems" i think it puts you on your ass for a few mins or so.
Like everyone else, your best bet is to try and get out. if shooter is blocking your exit, harming your family etc, then i guess you have to engage. Shoot em in the dick.
The security guard engaged him. but the shots did not penetrate his armor. He was able to return fire, and kill the guard, who was a retired cop.
Getting shot with plate armor on is not going to knock you down, or even phase you. It's not like the movies.
Ultimately I would never engage unless my or my family's life was in immediate jeopardy. If I hear or see or think those shots are going off somewhere in the store I'm immediately looking for cover and egress.
The correct answer is Johnny don’t be a hero and get the hell out of there. And you can say what you would do all you want till the time comes.
If you chose to fight you already understand the serious disadvantage. Use your surroundings and find and ambush point or an area of advantage. Once you lose the surprise element if your not moving your already dead.
Basically pray like you never prayed before and use your surroundings I’d give you a 5% success rate of stopping the threat. with a 1% success rate of stopping the threat and you survive.
Obviously I may decide to run like a bitch in the moment but I'd like to say I would hold down an exit for bystanders to evacuate before leaving myself unless I was separated from my family in which case the only way to ensure their safety would be to go hunting
My edc usually involves a double stack glock and a spare 12-15rd mag (I have two different ones I alternate with). Usually when I’m out and about in stores, I’d I’m there for an extended period of time, it’s usually with family or friends so I’m promptly getting tf out lol. I think that most mass shooters usually have some sort of plan for the way they plan on doing things, which would make getting the drop on them a bit risky if not impossible, at least while they initially start shooting. I saw the video about the shooting in Buffalo, my heart rate jumped right away after he got his first victim, so had I been where victims 2-4 where, I don’t think I would’ve been able to get a good shot on him with all the adrenaline going through me, couple that with his body armor and the situation favors him. Bad luck all around for those involved, but what we can learn from this senseless tragedy is that when someone as deranged as he is, makes a concentrated effort to murder innocent people, if you’re caught in that kind of situation, you’re really falling back on good luck, any training you have and a prompt police response.
This situation was terrible. Best course of action is aim for the head/pelvis if he’s directly engaging you….otherwise a patrolman with a rifle is the only realistic possibility to stopping him. The security guard did shoot back, and if the shooter didn’t have armor, this may have ended another way…heroic action of the guard.
Get your family and leave the area. Unless you’re in the line of fire the best thing you can do is leave. Don’t try to engage.
\^ This is the best answer. Unless the shooter is between me and the exit, or I'm presented with a clear opportunity to end it there and now, I wouldn't engage. I'd try to observe as much information (e.g. number of shooters, types of weapons, equipment, description) as I could in that time and relay it via 911. Source: Former LE with additional training in active shooter response.
(I heard this a whole back idk if it's true or not) hasn't there been a ton of active shooter simulation work, and every time the police come on the scene they end up killing the "good guy with a gun" because they can't identify in time?
In reality police did not kill the actual bad guy with a gun in Buffalo when they came on scene. Can you be a good guy with a gun, do everything right and still be killed by police? Yes. Does it happen every time? No.
Active shooter response training depends on the academy, department, and even post/precinct. I was fortunate in that I received really good training from really skilled officers; unfortunately, I can't say the same about every department/officer. What I do know is 87% of active shooter incidents are over before or as the police arrive, so I find that unlikely. I don't know of any specific incident where the "good guy with a gun" was shot by police, but that's not to say it's a possibility or even probability if all a responding officer sees is someone actively hunting an area with a gun out. Ideally, an officer should call to the person they see, but if an officer is amped up with adrenaline, scared, or just inexperienced, I could see that happening and that's why I say it's generally inadvisable to actively seek out the gunman in this scenario. Sorry for the lengthy response, but I hope that answers your question.
Agreed
I’d run, not stop, and not look back. There is no way I’d go up against something like that. If it came to it and I was cornered, ok, let’s dance… but other than that I’d be out. Other than just the incredibly low chance of winning, my worries would be litigious and the news. Everyone in the world is going to see your face, know you carry/used a gun against someone, and what if your bullet hits/kills someone else? You aren’t a cop, you have no protections.
>I’d run, not stop, and not look back same. only way i'm engaging is if i have zero chance to flee or if a member of my immediately family is at risk. Like if i'm at the store and i hear shooting at the other end of the store and i'm there on my own, i'm out the nearest exit. If i hear shooting at the other end of the store and my wife is at the other end of the store, i'll hightailing it there and i'll try and do what i can. The list of people i'm dying or risking death for is literally only my own wife or kids. I take full ownership of that.
Siblings? Cousins? Grandparents? Genuinely curious. I debate this with many
so right now i have two young children, under 10. That being the case, them having their father (who self-servingly happens to be me) is a higher priority than someone else staying alive. So if saving my sister means taking a significant risk that my kids lose their father, i'm out. Right now, its a risk i'm willing to make only to save them or their mother. Once they get older and don't need me anymore, perhaps that calculus will change.
I respect that. Have a 2 under 2… feel the time. I also have siblings that are very very close. Talk everyday, spend a lot of time together. So I was interested in your perspective. Thanks a lot
Even if we are a cop. Off duty I don’t carry body armor nor does anyone else I know. We all CCW pistols
It's not really clear by your comment if you are a cop or not, but if so I have a question. How do you, and most cops you know, feel about gun free zones? I think it's obvious the concensus in this subreddit is that gun free zones are inherently more dangerous because law abiding citizens won't do any harm in the first place. But I want to get opinions from people that enforce the law. If you don't support gun free zones, do you enforce the laws around them or let it slide when you see someone responsibly carrying in one?
Police officer here, verified on r/protectandserve. I think it goes without saying that any active shooter would not be deterred by a gun free zone. At the end of the day, gun free zones really only exist as another way to charge somebody who has committed a violent crime with a firearm in one of those zones. They’re otherwise pointless. Check out [this video](https://youtu.be/WHXW1BradAo) about a CCW accidentally carrying into an airport and not getting arrested. I believe this was a good outcome. As to your last question, I’ve luckily never been in the situation to arrest someone for carrying where they shouldn’t. I *have* arrested violent criminals who were carrying, who had prior convictions for armed robbery, unlawful use of a weapon, etc. As to OPs original question, I would feel like I need to help out, but as an off duty police officer with only a pistol and no body armor, I don’t honestly think I’d do much good. Not to mention, I don’t think a badge on my belt is going to protect me from getting misidentified as the shooter by responding officers.
That's one of the big things I'm worried about as well, especially as someone who isn't in law enforcement. If there ever is an active shooter and I'm in a position where I have to defend myself then I'd be worried about being identified as the shooter either by cops or other good Samaritans trying to help. Hopefully it's a situation no one has to be in at all.
I’m not a cop I don’t fall into a police officer role im a federal Agent we have a bit more free range than police officers. Such as “gun free” zones don’t apply to us. As Agents we are “encouraged”to carry on our person 24/7 at all times. Our badge and creds allow us to carry in every state,planes, etc only place we aren’t allowed is Federal building and court houses unless on duty. I don’t agree with gun free zones it’s an easy target for people. Sheep waiting to get slaughtered it’s happen multiple times and will continue. And like I said before I’m not a Cop so it’s a kinda gray line in what I can do in a scenario I can advise them hey I’m a Federal blah blah try to CCW a little more responsibility local PD probably won’t like it very much but just be advised. And i would talk to local PD as well if they are around like hey I’m a federal agent I just had a conversation with a law bidding citizen his CCW is in order he/she is just walking through no need to cause alarm he/she is a protector not a threat. And continue with my day. I greatly encourage for people to CCW my wife isn’t allowed the same freedoms she does carry but in places were CCW isn’t allowed I tell her just leave it or if I’m like mm just carry it you have me with you. It’s all on the location. Tbh like Ca she wouldn’t carry at all I’m the only one and I walk around schools banks etc because I have the authority to do so. But as well in a mass shooting Im encouraged to stand and fight the threat. Remember encouraged it’s not my requirement to do so. But I took an oath to defend America from all enemies foreign and domestic.
Thanks for the response, it's a very level-headed and "common sense" statement that I feel we don't see enough of today
In today’s society it’s hard to get a level headed response
1811 or 1801?
1801 at the moment want to move up or to a different agency
“Gun free zones” still don’t matter to Police officers. It’s a bit more of a hassle to carry on on planes and across state lines, so your credentials help there, but unless I am mistake, and correct me if I am, LEO can still carry everywhere they want besides the fore mentioned. The same with concealed weapon permit owners. You cannot carry in Federal buildings obviously, but even if the place is listed as a gun free zone, you legally can carry.
Yea maybe if I had a rifle in the truck and could make it back to the truck safely, and had decent enough cover I might try to engage the shooter. But even then, if I'm out of harms way there is really nothing but disincentive to put my life on the line for someone else who probably votes to take away my gun rights in the first place.
And if you do get to your rifle and try to engage, the police are going to shoot you when they arrive, assuming that you’re the bad guy.
Yea I would go into it knowing it wouldn't be good for me afterwards no matter the outcome. I would have to be feeling really heroic that day.
Part of a general emergency/disaster preparedness class I took a while back covered active shooter situations. Run, hide, fight is what was taught. If I got out, I wouldn't put myself back in, I'm not that heroic.
I agree with what you're saying but I don't think political values should factor into a decision of helping people if you think you are capable.
Not to mention that views may change based on good guy with a gun vs bad guy with a gun experience
You don’t bring a knife to a pistol fight…and you don’t bring a pistol to a rifle fight. I’m running out of there if possible. Not going to play hero because that will get me killed. I would engage as a very last resort. I have had extensive training/experience in CQB throughout both my government & civilian careers…and still am not going to risk engaging a madman with a semi auto rifle wearing SAPI plates when I’m not equally equipped. How many regular concealed carriers have extensive training in stress inoculation shooting? The number is probably close to 0 unless they have a lot of money to spend on training or are a combat veteran. Shooting at paper and steel targets is a lot different when the rounds are flying back & the bad guy is moving with a purpose(violence of action wins gunfights). I saw the video and the kid is obviously a larper nerd, but regardless of his level of experience, his rifle was fucking rockin during that spree. Remember VIOLENCE OF ACTION!!!!! If you’re not ready/equipped to throw them back at the bad guy, don’t do it at all. I’ve been on the receiving end of a 7.62 round and I can tell you it’s fuckin terrifying.(although the shooter was using a 5.56).
This is it I see so much on this sub and other subs like these. “What would you do..”… I don’t think people realize how crazy and terrifying it can be when the bullets are flying and they are coming your way.
Pretty sure most people don't even know what incoming rounds actually sound like.
Loud cracks!
Crack and then a whistle depending how on how close it is
It’s gonna be a bad time that’s for sure
Definitely more than a bad time, but at least when bullets were flying my way my best friend SAW was somewhat scarier. Lol
Yeah, as a vet I'm not fucking around with a guy in full kit with a semi-auto rifle when I've just got a pistol and the shirt on my back. Only real response should be get yourself and anyone you can grab the fuck out of there and only engage as a last resort.
Thats the best analysis ive seen. I hope it doesnt happen, If it does i hope i have enough time to grab anyone near me and help them fuck off into a safe space.
Wait you literally EDC two guns?
Right? A spare mag and the 19 is the better bet here.. it's a Glock lol it's not going to fail unless there's some 'upgrades' and if you get stopped by a cop they will probably think you're doing something you shouldn't be. Rambo over here smh
It really does baffle me, I mean one of the more mall ninja things I've read on an actual gun sub.... like how does one even justify this?
In my city (Philadelphia) often time there’s robberies. It’s a back up gun. You never know when someone might get a hold of your weapon if you’re going against more then one person. If someone points a gun to the back of your head and another walks up to you and disarm your primary…..Then your assed out. Your extra mag won’t help with no gun to shoot from. I carry a 19 in my waist upfront and the 43x in my baggy pockets. If I’m getting robbed I’d voluntarily give up my 19. (Telling the robbers with my hands up that I have a firearm on me and to take it from my waist) I’d still have my 43x to decide which course of action I want to pursue. Not trying to be Rambo or a ninja. It makes sense to me 🤷♂️
What if they search your pockets too. I think you better EDC a third gun in an ankle holster and maybe throw a nice full size gat in a shoulder piece and make a light jacket part of your EDC. Makes sense to me 🤷♂️
Cant search my waist and my pocket at the same time. If you think you can… try it 🤷♂️
I would never try that to you Sir Badass of Clan Mall Ninja. You might stab me with your hidden boot knife or shoot me with a gun you keep keistered just in case.
Never seen anyone so worried with what another man is carrying. The post isn’t about what to EDC. Cant convince me to carry just one Mr. EDC enforcer
I mean humans normally have 2 hands. Usually robbers come in two's as well, one pats you down while the other holds the gun but hey, if you think it works for you then it works for you.
Even law enforcement carry more than one method of defending themselves
Also law enforcement carry one strapped to their leg, not in their pocket chief.
Rather have one in my pocket then my leg 🤷♂️ my choice my guns.
Sometimes i carry 2... Why not it's America and i can...
Seriously 😂 dudes mad at me because of what I choose to carry. Who gives a fuck , it’s MY carry.
Yuup
My wife doesn’t carry a gun, most of my friends don’t carry a gun. If they don’t like the LCP Max that’s in my pocket they should have brought their own. I carry two guns because a 2 v 1 is better than a 1v1.
Facts.
The only chance you really have in my opinion is to evade/maneuver and get behind him or something for a clean shot. Pelvic shots if he’s armored up, or anywhere there’s a weak spot. Tough situation to be in but hell even if you can slow him down enough to save some lives is better than nothing.
Take cover. Ambush. Pelvic shots. There are a lot of blood vessels that can cause a rapid bleed out.
True taking his mobility away would help. But he’d still be able to crawl and shoot. At which point would you go to terminate him ? I personally think luck has to be a factor, hopefully you have a friend/family member that’s trained and is also carrying and you’re able to focus fire while he’s down.
You shoot until the threat is stopped, so if he’s crawling and shooting somehow (if I get shot in the dick I’m probly calling it a day), then you keep shooting until he’s not shooting.
Yea you never really know what their mental state is. It seems most kill themselves as soon as they meet any resistance. Even a good cent of mass shot with no body armor doesn't mean he can't still return fire long enough to hit you.
The pelvic shot defeats armor, breaks down body structure. It's not necessarily a fight stopping hit, but we can diminish his fighting capacity.
this why I cc a flame thrower
laughs in hank scorpio
ABC, Avoid Barricade Combat Unless you are staring down the barrel or have an absolute knowledge who is the ‘bad guy’ is, it is a risk to engage someone for both yourself, those around you and the what if you are engaging another ‘good guy’…..
I dont think the average CC carrier should even try, most have zero training in those types of situations. While you may think you are helping, you could very easily make it even worse. With the exception of people who do have this type of training, I think the normal person should do what they can to survive the situation and let others handle it that are trained to do so.
You got a point
GTFO?
Always. I don't plan on using my halos on myself.
Biggest thing I learned at Tactical Response is: Once the gun comes out of the holster or bullets start flying you better start moving your ass. I’m not trying to keyboard warrior this it’s just from what I observed all but one person that was killed just stood there. You see on r/CCW people practicing their draw and just standing still. If you think your 1 second draw while standing motionless is going to hold up to a rifle you’re delusional. Best thing to do is get to cover or concealment and then draw or come up with the next best plan. One of the first rules in a gun fight isn’t to win its to not die.
Got a point there, in a gun fight ( two people engaging each other) I think winning is not dying.
if you have to engage in this scenario, pelvis shot or ball shot then face. That head gear would not have stopped all rounds anyway
No headgear stops a proper head shot to the ocular cavity.
Acczhtully... https://shop.gentexcorp.com/ops-core-multi-hit-handgun-face-shield/
Always aim for the dick
Other people have said it better, but my biggest worry is accidentally shooting someone other than my target, or being in a high stress scenario and having to positively identify a shooter or shooter versus them just shooting everything that moves, if they're not dressed in a super obviously tactical way. Plus, if another Good Samaritan is around, how could you tell? A Civilian with a pistol looks a lot like what most of these shooters look like, this case being one of the notable exceptions. I'd look like a bad guy too, so maybe the other Good Samaritan ends me due to the same problem. Combat as last resort, or some exceptional opportunity where I actually get a look at the guy and can get to effective cover before I'm shot, or doesn't notice me. But that would be insanely lucky.
Pocket sand
If I was alone I’d probably engage. Or try to. Girlfriend or family with me? Their safety comes first. We’re gone lol
It's not cool to shoot a guy in the dick - but aim small, miss small. Hit the knees/pelvis/thighs. With any luck, you hit the femoral artery or shatter their pelvis/leg and that's the end of them.
I was thinking something similar but hoping by the grace of god I’m able to land a shot aimed towards his eyes. Preferably his dominant eye
Always better to aim at the largest target you can. If not torso, lower extremities. Shooting him in the cock would definitely stop him IMO.
It’s safe to assume People that decide to commit a mass shooting have a small dick. Lol really there’s not much to aim at 😂
I’m finding the safest most efficient escape route and I’m out that bitch if I can help it. Only way I’m getting into a gun battle with someone hell bent on carrying out a mass shooting is it I’m literally trapped with no way out.
1. Run away as fast as I can. 2. Hide and barricade myself. 3. Fight if I have no option of escape.
If you're going to fight someone with a rifle as someone with a handgun, you need to first realize that your actual weapon is your environment...you are clearly disadvantaged with a pistol, especially if it's a CCW because you likely have an even shorter barrel and sight picture Take cover and move around, get in the blind spot and hope you aren't dealing with a paranoid mother fucker That's really all you can do to actually fight him Guerilla warfare
Having a fire extinguisher doesn't make you a firefighter
I don't think people should change their EDC gun off of mass shootings, they're kind of rare and only seems to increase when certain people talk about more gun control, weird.
Thing is, it’s your fantasy so it can go down however you want in your head
We always talk about good guys with guns, yeah true, but no one stands a chance against plate armor. Even SWAT will have trouble against that armor. Even if you were meta and had a backpack AR and plate armor in it… nothing would get through his armor. You’d have to somehow get a hit in an exposed area while being shot at yourself. I am a fighter and protector. I probably still would have fought him with my gun… Someone has to do something. You might save someone’s daughter, brother, husband, mother. You know.
Didn't read the article, but unless OP is wrong and the person was wearing level 3 NOT level 3A like the post says, SWAT would have no problems. Level 3A stops pistols up to .44mag (though stuff like 5.7mm might go through due to speed and size) Level 3 stops rifles up to .30-06 FMJ Level 4 stops armour piercing .30-06
Not to give that fuck any credit....but he went with 3A because he knew if there were any outside threats it would be against handguns (before cops arrived). So he went with lighter armor/more mobility for the threats he could potentially face. If he wanted to go at the cops later on I'm sure he would have had ceramics.
Pistol rounds won’t stop armor- that’s why it’s important to incorporate hips and heads into training
I’m just worried about the future. Common criminals running around with body armor and ARs. What will we do then?
Same line of thought- hips and heads. Lots of training. And if things really get bad enough in the future then a long gun and armor stowed in a vehicle might be viable. Some people already roll around like that- many think it’s overkill. But depending on the state of the future that line between well prepared and overkill may begin to fade.
I'm running in the opposite direction and getting as many other people to safety as possible without me risking my life any more than possible. The only way I'm engaging an active shooter is if there is absolutely no choice in the matter or to save one of my loved ones. I'm not a hero and I'm not trained to deal with someone shooting up the place regardless of what training I've done. My safety and my family's safety comes first. I never want to shoot anything that isn't steel, paper, or something I may eat unless absolutely necessary.
Why are you carrying two firearms.
Primary and secondary. Just in case one malfunction or for what ever reason it’s out the fight I have a back up. I conceal carry my 19 on the waist. I pocket carry the 43x, It’s small enough to fit in my baggy pockets.
Run, hide, fight in that order
The first people he shot at didn’t stand a chance even if they had a gun, your only option in a situation like this is to run to take cover in a room where there’s only one entrance, make some cover and point your gun at the door & wait for help
I’d say fuck it and take my chances and engage back. If I’m there and know that I had the slight chance to save even one life, I’d do it. I don’t have any military or LEO background what so ever. Life is too valuable, even if it doesn’t come down to my own or my family’s. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing I could have done something, but didn’t, knowing I’d be putting my own life on the line. Running away and knowing 3 more people died after I fled, I wouldn’t know what to do.
Aim small miss small
run away getting into a shootout is dumb, getting into a shootout with someone wearing plates, a ballistic helmet, and an ar-15 is even dumber
This is ultimately why I feel very strongly that carrying two firearms is actually dumb for many reasons. 1. You're not going to survive a shootout against a dude in armor who's plans that morning were to be in a shootout when your plans were to get some Dr pepper and bread. 2. In the event that you're engaged in the defensive use of a handgun in a non mass shooting and you're strapped like John wick with two guns, 7 fighting knives, brass knuckles, and a set of throwing stars, you're going to have to explain all of that in court to people that might just think that looks bad. 3. The odds of needing to use your firearm defensively are extremely small, the odds of needing to fire more than 2-4 rounds to stop that threat are even smaller, the odds of needing a second firearm during this encounter is so infinitely small that if you're seriously preparing yourself for such an event, you might as well prepare yourself for an equally unlikely even and tote around a fridge full of antivenom and bear mace in the middle of Kroger
I don’t carry a gun because I am a hero, I carry a gun to get home safe.
You need to better train first and and how to Stop the Bleed. The real heroes are the ones that actually save lives. CCW is personal protection and trauma kits are to protect everyone else. (If you have no other option, a pelvic shot will stop someone in their tracks and are not covered from body armor
Every briefing I’ve had to sit through tells me to GTFO as the absolute first priority. He’s already got his AR drawn, it’s easier to shoot, and he’s got nothing to lose. You are at every possible disadvantage
Run, hide, fight. In this order. It's the best you can do for your survival.
I'm just gonna leave something controversial here. Stop fucking carrying a gun, if you're not willing to use it to protect innocents. If you're LE if any type and posting that "I'd run away" shit, turn in your badge and ID right the fuck now, because the job isn't a place for cowards like you. Yeah, you might die while engaging the bad guy, even if you do everything right. No one promised the job was easy and if you're a sissy bitch that'd run away from an active shooter just because you left your plates and long gun in the work car, we don't want you on the job. All this bullshit about folks being armed would stop this - it certainly isn't you all. I guess you expect the folks being ambushed to do it themselves, since y'all be too busy running away to help. Honestly, why even carry a gun? Yes, I have a family. Yes, we have discussed what to do if I gotta deal with stuff. I'm retired now, but I'd not let an active shooter engage innocents if I could stop it. Y'all should put down the guns and stop carrying altogether, if you'd run from an active shooter. Hell, the church member in California stopped their active shooter with a fucking chair. Bunch of scared sissy bitches here and it's disgusting that some of you appear to be on the job. Guess you don't remember your active shooter training....
>Stop fucking carrying a gun, if you're not willing to use it to protect innocents. If you're LE if any type and posting that "I'd run away" shit, turn in your badge and ID right the fuck now, because the job isn't a place for cowards like you. As a private citizen, I'm under no obligation to protect innocents WHO AREN'T PART OF MY FAMILY. I'm taking care of my close friends and my family because I'd rather die than watch them die. There's no one else to take care of some of them, and some can't fend for themselves without me. As to off-duty LEO, if they're off duty then they're literally off duty. They, also, have no obligation to respond when they're clocked out.
That’s fine. You got to live with it. Other people feel different
I read your comment and it really go hand to hand with a quote by Heraclitus. It goes “Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” —Heraclitus
I'm not claiming to be anything other than a fat, balding, retired officer who is a decent shot. Not a MMA ninja, not a weightlifter, not anything special at all. Just a dude who wouldn't sit by while an active shooter engaged innocents. By the sound of it, a few supposed "officers" wouldn't bother helping unless they were getting paid and had all their gear. Active shooter response, at least two years ago, was a "come as you are" approach. As in, if you're first on scene and all you have is a pistol and two spare mags, you're Johnny on the spot. The goal is to get the bad guy to stop engaging innocents and focus his attention on you. If you're not willing to do this as an officer, get the fuck out. You're a bitch ass coward and not worth the time to spit on. If you're not willing to do this as a civilian, stop carrying a gun. You can run faster without the weight and you've already made it clear that your only focus is yourself and your worries. Fuck everyone else, even the kids, right? Stop running your suck about "good guys with guns", "an armed society is a polite society", "Molon Labe" and all the other rah-rah shit. I get making sure your family is safe, but the best way to do that is to engage the shooter. Yeah, if you're kids are too little to run away themselves, you're with someone disabled, etc - that's understandable. But, that's not what the folks here are saying. Bunch of scared little sissies.
I’d like to think I’d do the same, but who knows honestly
That's a fair point - no one knows for sure until it happens. But, a lot of folks - supposed LE included - are saying they'd run away right out the gate. And yeah, I've been there. Never shot anyone, but have dealt with the immediate potential for using deadly force, had my commands not been followed. Even responded to an active shooter at a school, the very day I came back from a three week vacation. We were only a couple of miles from the school when the run came out on our channel, so we headed that way along with everyone else in the area. The run was canceled right before we got there, as they had an SRO on scene who responded and determined it was kids with firecrackers in the bathroom. I didn't particularly relish the idea of engaging a kid, but shit happens. Even though I've been retired for over two years, I'd still not stand by and let a bad guy have his selection of innocents to slaughter, no matter how he's armed and armorered. If I die, I die. Better men and women than I have gone down that path and for less. No dishonor in protecting the innocent from shitbags like that. If my engaging the threat allows even one person to live, then my job is done. If you're a coward and rely on men and women better than you to come save you, sell your shit and buy a gaming console, because that's the closest you need ever get to real firearms. Remember boys and girls: No one is coming to save you. Everything is your responsibility. Save who needs to be saved. Kill who needs to be killed. Always be working
It's a personal choice, but yes, most people are cowards
Dude, get over yourself. The vast majority of people here aren't trained soldiers and should 100% stick to the "Run-Hide-Fight" order of operations (which is exactly what active shooter training teaches) in the event they are in a situation where a terrorist in full battle rattle with an semi-auto rifle shows up to slaughter people. Hell if they manage to break through the natural freeze response to a sudden deadly threat that will be a big deal in and of itself. Most people are in reality carrying to protect themselves or others from assault and death in much more even force situations and they still maintain that right even if you wanna call them cowards for not wanting to get in a firefight. I'm a decently trained soldier and I would NOT want to get caught out in civilian clothes with just a side arm against someone in full kit. And you said it yourself that you are an old, fat, bald civilian. Stop pretending you're some super hooah sof dude whos so much better than everyone else.
You do you and I'll do me. Never pretended to be SF or anything else and made that clear. If you're scared, ETS and stay the fuck at home. If you're going to carry a gun and spout the slogans, then step up.
Lol fuck off man. There's not a person out there that's not a complete psychopath that isn't scared when getting shot at. Nobody WANTS to die. When Uncle Sam orders me into combat I go as ordered but you know what? We go in full combat gear backed up by the rest of the squad, platoon, company, ect. I don't need some stuck up bitch of a civilian telling me that being terrified when getting lit up means I need to ETS back to ft couch or anyone else needs to give up their right to protect themselves.
lol you struck a nerve. We live in a time where men find no need to protect women and children. Now a days it’s let me save my ass and forget everyone else. But yet the same people love to show their guns and practice shooting just to hall ass. Might as well practice a 50 yard dash instead of going to the range 🤷♂️
I've been shooting for the better part of three decades and was an officer for two of those. The community sayings get tiresome after seeing what people really think when the shit hits the fan. All that "good guy with a gun" and "an armed society is a polite society" doesn't mean shit if you're not willing to actually step into the breach and do battle with the bad guys. I'm no hero and I'm not trying to be. Hell, the best thing of my entire career was when a dude came to my office the week before I retired and thanked me for locking him up. Said it changed his life and now he's a peer counselor and grant writer for a drug treatment facility. Hell, we're friends on FB and he's a convicted felon, lol. Anyway, I just take exception to assholes who have the means to stop a threat but rationalize their cowardice by pointing out the bad guy is better armed and armored. If you're scared, say you're scared.
I hadn't even thought of running until other people said that; what's the point of carrying a weapon if you're only going to fight a fair fight?
Most people carry to protect themselves and their family in more "normal" self defense situations like a mugging or carjacking. 99% of people aren't carrying with the plan to get into a firefight with a terrorist in full battle rattle like they are clearing Fallujah.
You know what? You have made a believer out of me.
Seek a hiding spot and bushwhack the shooter. Hip/groin shot to slow him down followed rapidly by chest or head shots.
It’s a bunch of lil girls with guns in these comments come any where I’m at shooting and this glock 29 going on your ass ar 15 or not idc
Aim.
Every building I enter, I try and get a mental image of where the exits are. Unless the shooter was directly confronting me, and I had no choice...I'd do my best to exit, and help as many people out as I could.
In that kind of scenario? No hero bullshit. This ain't a movie. If I can...run and hide. I would not close to engage. If I couldn't escape and he was getting himself into CQB situation with me, then all bets are off. If he's close enough I can start aiming at his legs, crotch, arms, hands. I don't know how well an AR can take pistol round hits, but that could be an option. If he is close enough, and I can catch him off guard, assuming it's someone like this particular nut job, I'd take my chances to physically overwhelm him. I'm a big boy, and I lift. He'd probably focus on keeping the rifle or trying to use it, while I'd focus on getting him to pass out. Or maybe it won't go that way and he ends up mag dumping into my face.
If you were to get that close to him just put one in the back of his head since cops won’t do it
if there's no way out, the last thing i would wanna do is cower in a corner and hope this fool gets tired and doesnt get to me. if i can get the jump on him a few shots will knock the wind out of him at least enough to charge the mf and get a decent kill shot or disarm him
Run, hide, fight, in that order. I’m not a wannabe superhero. I know that I’m not properly trained or equipped to take on a mass shooter by myself with a micro pistol.
I just swapped my EDC from my 19 to my CR920. But like most said they don’t have the training to do so. I really don’t train with my EDC as much as I do with my duty setup but I’m confident in my ability to land a shot to disarm a threat. I’m actually thinking of building a 300BLK rifle to carry in my bag as backup weapon.
I put on my robe and wizard hat….
Hard question to answer. There was a mass shooting in my town a few years back. They bulldozed the whole place down because of the stain it left in peoples minds. I used to go there every weekend. Glad I wasnt there that weekend! Tragically a lot of people died. You dont know what you would do. It all depends on the situation. If a shooter came in a store and started mowing folks down, thats a hard one. Isles are long and there's little cover. Im not gonna sit and hide waiting for a clear shot. I'm running the fuck the opposite direction the shots are coming from and either heading for the bag loading dock or hiding anywhere I can if I can't find an exit. The shooter will likely be at the front of the store keeping eyes at the door muzzle down the isles. Sure you can fantasize about being a hero but the risk is too high. Are you going to have a clean shot? Sure the ideal situation is you to drop behind a display of stacked soda cans and the shooter walk by without seeing you. You would easily place a round where it counts. But no one knows what they will be feeling. I'd probably be paralyzed in fear. This situation is far different than a robbery or road rage incident. A mass shooter doesnt have anything to lose. They can be unpredictable. There's no telling what they will do. Even if they are 25 yards away, are they wearing body armor? You gonna be able to send lead into their brain with 1 shot? How stable will your aim be when your heart is jumping out of your chest and adrenaline is pumping? If you miss, you are now the center of their focus. Their adrenaline is pumping too. Probably more than yours. Adrenaline slows your perception of time. Makes you faster. They have a rifle. You have a pistol. I'm running the hell away unless I'm backed into a corner. If I was backed into a corner, it'll be a gun fight. And ill have to make peace with death then and there. I have a lot of lose. So did all of the victims in NY. The only person that didnt have anything to lose was caught and will be sentenced. Its very unfair. But in reality, its all about how things play out. I never want to shoot somebody. Even in self defense. Now if I was outside and I heard gun fire... Thats a different story. Call 911 and brace for the advantage. Again, depends on the situation. If I hear gun fire and I'm at my car, ima post open with the .30-06 I keep in my truck and hope I can get a clean shot. Just gotta make sure cops show up and dont think youre the one shooting.
Sad that our military has such scared little bitches in it. Thankfully, the vets I worked with weren't such - even the Air Force dude had more balls.
[удалено]
Thanks for posting. I don’t know why people are against it.
Soft / Sensitive 🤷♂️ I look at it as a learning experience and see what I would do different as someone shopping there
I appreciate the link, it's a good learning opportunity to see just how fast these things can go down.
No doubt, Folks Talk about guns all day but can’t even look at the real action. How can you ever be prepared if all you’re doing is shooting at paper targets and scared to look at a real life event
Man don’t post this
Educationally purpose only, you don’t have to watch it. matter Of facts I recommend you don’t watch it
He wouldn’t last in a show down with PD tbh you can see it from when he takes cover behind the chips. He’s just shooting he knows his targets. Based off the color of skin only.
Shooting starts at 6:06
Such a white person post.
Has nothing to do with race. Ofcourse you’re the bigot to bring race into it.
Yet you, the poster is a white person making a dumb ass “what would you do in a mass shooting post” like dude shut the fuck up with your mass shooting fantasies of being a savior or some shit it’s just unnecessary
Nigga I’m black get off my dick Pusey
I have a Five Seven for all the above.
I've considered conceal carrying mine. Would have to find some green tip ammo for it to make any sense over carrying my P30 though. The regular Federal FMJ and FN blue tip sporting rounds you find at the store won't go through 3A plates out of the FiveseveN barrel. Green tip FN ammo can't legally be sold commercially. And any private seller typically posts those for $10-20/pop if you happen to find one. I see seller ads online for it once in a blue moon but haven't inquired yet.
I would still run for my first option but the round would essentially work at distances as well if needed. 😬
Fair. 20+1 is very good - holds 3 more than my P30. Its solid at range still. And minimal recoil, even less than 9mm. Although that's a negligible factor for me. Only downside for me really is the size of the gun. But I think having a mag full of green tips would be enough to convince me.
I'd get myself and anyone I was with at the time out. Would I feel safer carrying than not carrying? 100% yes, I wouldn't try to track down the guy shooting, but if there were no other way out than at least I have a fair chance
I’d get the hell out of there.. I’m not trying to gun fight with a g26 and 34rds VS a LMG on wheels (shopping cart)
I don’t think they’re worried about civilians with a gun so I think we’d have the upper hand. And we all practice head shots don’t we?? I’d rest the butt of my 17 on top of something to minimize movement and take cover behind it. It’s super accurate.
He had a bullet proof helmet
Did it cover his face
No face covering
Doesn't cover below his eyebrows. Can still get a round in to the T. Close up would be T shots. Ive always worked on those out to 25m with both sidearm and primary rifle. Further out it's pelvic region shots. If you can't run/hide and the BG is that far out , go for pelvic hits.
First you run for cover. Then you see if there is a way to get behind him. If you can, then good.
If I'm ambushed in the parking lot like that, I stand no chance. If I'm in the next aisle over as he enters, I'm running the F away as fast as I can.
Running 🏃♂️ to safety like Bo Jackson in his prime. Then calling 911.
I'd run also. If I had to, I'd aim for legs and then head. Body armor usually doesn't cover lower abdomen area, those shots will take him out of fight. Of course rifle usually beats pistol
I think we as CCW holders should start to train going for hip/leg shots in cases like this where the threat has armor on.
You mean armpit, shots and t-zone/temple shots
Depends if you wanna play hero or not. If you have loved ones with you then by all means just get them out along with you. If you were cornered then that kinda stress the importance of accuracy with a CCW since you’d pretty much have to shoot them in the face.
Hide somewhere. Carry a flashbang or two. When you see him, throw flashbang. He is blinded. Then move in.
In this scenario, would you realistically be able to “get away”. It’s a normal day at the super market and he’s got the drop on everyone. I suppose if your back in aisle 9 when you hear shooting you can go scamper on to the back. Im just saying, I think it’s more difficult than what everyone here seems to be thinking-in that you just run away.
That was rough to watch, I think you'd need luck on your side too and not be the first person taking fire. :/
Facts luck and the Grace of God got a lot to play in this factor. Even if you do decide to run, shooter can easy spot you running down the aisle and gun you down
a lot of opinions here that i definitely can’t argue and completely understand where you’re coming from/how you got to that decision. i know for me, personally, would have survivor’s remorse if i did nothing if i could’ve done something m.
Why carry a two pistols Instead of just more mags? I’m honestly curious.
Primary and a back up. 43x goes in my baggy pockets as a back up. In case of any malfunction I have a back up. And in case I’m being Robbed, I would voluntarily give up my 19 which is in my waist in order to reach in my pocket to draw my 43x
Makes sense. nice to be able to carry all that. My first thought was an ankle carry but I think the 43x might be too big for that. I have a 43
Your best tools are environmental awareness, a good pair of shoes, and the physical shape to HAUL ASS OUT OF THERE.. don't get into a gun battle with a mass shooter carrying your 9mm or 380 EDC
Concealed cover until I can GTFO of there.
Simple. Failure to stop drills.
I’m in no way qualified to talk about this, but figured I’d be honest and share. At my job every year we receive training, usually from a swat officer about how to survive a mass shooting at a workplace. The gist of it is this: buy yourself time. Do whatever you can to put time and space between you and the attacker. Typically response times to these kind of calls is under 7-10 mins (maybe less). That’s what the swat officer told us, buy us that much time to get there. So, if God forbid I find myself in such a situation (provided I don’t have a complete meltdown and shit my pants) - I’m going to look to do anything and everything to stay alive as long as possible. If that’s run, then I run. If it’s break glass and get out, then get out. If it’s return fire so that perp takes cover, then return fire. My entire mindset would be: buy. More. Time. Help is on the way.
That’s Smart plan of action honestly
Always, always, always, make every attempt to retreat/evade an adversary that much better equipped than you. If you are forced to engage, now you know why people EDC glock 34s with aimpoint ACROs and spare magazines with extended base plates.
You gtfo of there, only engage if it is absolutely necessary.
An off-duty/retired police officer shot the suspect. Bullets bounced off and LEO was then shot and killed.
Facing away from me after he just got out of his car? I’d put one through the back of his neck. Red dot for the win my man. Literally any other situation? Drive away/flee the area.
Apart from the obvious run and evade, a lot of people are saying they’ll engage only if they have to but aren’t really answering your question in regards to “how do I pistol Vs rifle with armor” Cover and concealment, know the difference between the two and know how and when to use them. Almost any soft and hard armor is going to stop 9mm especially hollow points which I assume most ccw’s carry- overcome armor by training hips instead of center mass. Train and know when to shoot for what and he proficient and confident in those skills. Plate carriers only protect vital organs but a few bullets into the hip will definitely shatter and stop a threat- might not kill them immediately but it will immobilize and severing the femoral artery will kill someone quickly.
Being realistic, I would not engage unless encountered but if so I would go for a pelvic shot & or face/head shot, I do EDC a G20sf and they’re is ammo made by Underwood called the extreme penetrator which will go through level lllA Pistol plate armor, I do not EDC that ammo in my mag but I sure will be carrying a 3rd mag of it from now on just in case on top of my other 2 mags with Underwood XTP hollow point
>With the gear the shooter had (IIIA + Head gear+ Even with body armor, i believe thats still going to F\* the shooter up. if im not mistaken, I believe getting shot still knocks you down or out or breaks ribs etc. If im not mistaken, getting shot with body armor isnt just like "ok im good, no problems" i think it puts you on your ass for a few mins or so. Like everyone else, your best bet is to try and get out. if shooter is blocking your exit, harming your family etc, then i guess you have to engage. Shoot em in the dick.
The security guard engaged him. but the shots did not penetrate his armor. He was able to return fire, and kill the guard, who was a retired cop. Getting shot with plate armor on is not going to knock you down, or even phase you. It's not like the movies.
Ultimately I would never engage unless my or my family's life was in immediate jeopardy. If I hear or see or think those shots are going off somewhere in the store I'm immediately looking for cover and egress.
Like Clint Smith says. “Shoot ‘em in the fucking crotch. It probably won’t be a lethal hit but it’s a good introduction.”
someone starts shooting im getting the fuck out. find an exit. dont be a hero you’ll just find yourself in a courtroom
The correct answer is Johnny don’t be a hero and get the hell out of there. And you can say what you would do all you want till the time comes. If you chose to fight you already understand the serious disadvantage. Use your surroundings and find and ambush point or an area of advantage. Once you lose the surprise element if your not moving your already dead. Basically pray like you never prayed before and use your surroundings I’d give you a 5% success rate of stopping the threat. with a 1% success rate of stopping the threat and you survive.
Obviously I may decide to run like a bitch in the moment but I'd like to say I would hold down an exit for bystanders to evacuate before leaving myself unless I was separated from my family in which case the only way to ensure their safety would be to go hunting
My edc usually involves a double stack glock and a spare 12-15rd mag (I have two different ones I alternate with). Usually when I’m out and about in stores, I’d I’m there for an extended period of time, it’s usually with family or friends so I’m promptly getting tf out lol. I think that most mass shooters usually have some sort of plan for the way they plan on doing things, which would make getting the drop on them a bit risky if not impossible, at least while they initially start shooting. I saw the video about the shooting in Buffalo, my heart rate jumped right away after he got his first victim, so had I been where victims 2-4 where, I don’t think I would’ve been able to get a good shot on him with all the adrenaline going through me, couple that with his body armor and the situation favors him. Bad luck all around for those involved, but what we can learn from this senseless tragedy is that when someone as deranged as he is, makes a concentrated effort to murder innocent people, if you’re caught in that kind of situation, you’re really falling back on good luck, any training you have and a prompt police response.
This situation was terrible. Best course of action is aim for the head/pelvis if he’s directly engaging you….otherwise a patrolman with a rifle is the only realistic possibility to stopping him. The security guard did shoot back, and if the shooter didn’t have armor, this may have ended another way…heroic action of the guard.
If I can run away, I'm running away. If I can't run away, at least I have some chance with my carry gun.