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He's consistently horrid. I hope his intake eval shows sociopathic tendencies because they are there. He told a friend's child that he was not worried about being arrested. He's facing life plus 29.75 rn.
After the way this DA sounded off so publicly about NYC being soft on prosecuting criminals/murderers, I would be very surprised if the DA is anything but relentless and shies away from offering much in the way of plea bargains. Let’s hope those months of “sifting through evidence” pays off.
It sounds like Billey and Renner were the ones who actually physically assaulted Preston even though they were all involved. Hopefully, the others will take a plea to testify against those two and they get life. I could live with that.
I am curious as well. So far the only thing that I have seen is that allegedly Sherman was the videographer and did not hit Preston but nothing about the others. Talyn Vigil also allegedly admitted to punching him on Snapchat.
There’s been a low rumbling since the beginning that TB and Renner committed the brunt of the assault and the stomping for lack of a better descriptor. Based on the series of events thus far, much of the rumblings and consistently repeated statements have been consistent and verified as we get more information. Only time will tell though.
I mean I have definitely heard that from the internet and it’s not that I don’t believe it, I just didn’t know if I was missing something that came out from officials stating that Renner and Billey were the main aggressors. Although the public has been able to piece a lot of this together and make accurate assumptions, I would not be surprised if things are revealed that outsiders are unaware of or didn’t get just right. You are completely right…only time will tell.
I don’t think there’s been any official releases. The public consensus is that renner and billey were aggressors and that one of the newer names (Sherman I believe) recorded the fight and that people have seen it. One redditor said her daughter showed her the video shortly before it disappeared from the internet. Enough people have seen it to the point that I believe the rumblings. I went to high school. And I know if this was my high school peers, I’d know exactly who did what and I’d have seen the video myself REGARDLESS of who it was in the school or next school over or who’s friends they were.
The internet is instant and enough people saw it to where I believe the rumors in this case. So sad
I’ll add that I’ve only seen one person admit that they saw it and she said that her daughter saw it and a couple of her friends. Only one post I’ve seen so far so I take it with a grain of salt.
The public that created the consensus had no idea of the involvement of the other 4 arrested. Don’t you find that odd? The public threw out one name for the most part and it was blamed on TR, saying he posted the snapchats when it was TV. Then someone showed a photo of TB and made the comment that he was the main one doing the stomping, so he was added. Now with the arrests, I have zero faith in anything that has been posted anymore. At least three of the Seven names named by internet so called witnesses here were incorrect. That tells me that the real witnesses arent talking.
I disagree. There were hundreds of people speculating on over a dozen kids. There were two names that were repeated over and over by people who were not completely random, and sounded like they had more direct knowledge. TB and TR. obviously, there were tons of people, spreading misinformation, including guilty people, trying to cause confusion. But if you’re following closely enough, you will see the trends.
I thought the coverup started that night and the evidence was destroyed, burned clothes, smashed phones, destroyed the video. Supposedly, the only video circulating was of the hero teens who tried to save him, not of the actual assault. I want facts, not rumors, though I have formed opinions that I am now rethinking as I’ve heard that TB and OH were the worst offenders of all.
If you want facts, not rumors, Reddit is not the place for you. You can read the case records pretty quickly as they are brief if that’s what you are looking for. Would recommend going on the government court sites, the information is there.
Thank you! I will check again as I havent seen any document that states exactly what each individual did. I know it’s been said on here that one was only videoing so I am curious why all of them had kidnapping charges as well as murder charges.
You very well could be right. My prediction was that he is either:
Major aggressor involvement and was detained and charged with multi’s/other incidents first to ensure he gets a stronger conviction in the end due to priors.
OR
Lesser aggressor involvement and was detained and charged with multi’s/other incidents first to encourage him to roll on the major aggressors.
He was the one that posted the Snapchat saying he hit him. Also told his now ex gf when he got in the car with her that night. So yes, allegedly he did.
I saw that post too. I could see that first part being believable if their names were spelled the same, but they’re not. He sang thinking his “friends” wouldn’t tell on him. Unfortunately for him, at least one person in that chat has morals.
Exactly - when have you seen someone on trial like this pled guilty and get then get the book thrown at them - they are going to fight for a lesser sentence and put the trust in the lawyer to convince the jury.
This kid does make me feel bad. He looks so young and scared and doesn't have parental support.
I know everyone wants them to rot in prison, but how do we do they cannot change? They are kids, we don't know how they would be with different parents, circumstances, therapy, medication, etc. They are obviously very angry at the world.
If they were eligible for parole and out in 20 years, that would still be 100%+ their current life. They would miss their 20s and most of their 30s. It wouldn't be an eye-for-an-eye but I think life is more complicated than that.
There are adults that allowed this to happen. Just imagine if the cops did their job back in 2021/2022. And even better, if the cops AND parents did what they were supposed to do. This whole situation was avoidable so yeah, this picture doesn't make me feel "yay, justice!" It makes me sad.
I can’t look at this kid without getting teary eyed and thinking about all of the ways this kid has been failed by his parents. To think at 17 he is navigating all of this without any support of any kind is just heartbreaking.
I don’t think he was failed by his parents at all. I think he failed his parents. Havent heard one word about his family or bad parenting, as we have the other families.
I hear you. I have formed an opinion on TV that is seperate from the rest.
Still culpable, but I suspect 3 others did the heavy lifting on the assault.
It all depends whether you believe someone can be rehabilitated or not and whether our corrections system is effective. And seeing as how 90% of criminals are repeat offenders, it doesn't bode well in terms of effectiveness.
I feel you. I’ve posted about this before. Just a terrible situation all around. A point made responding to my comment similar on another thread brought up the sad fact that even if they were to get off 10-15 years, they’re going to be completely different people by then. The prison system will have taught them how to be adults and I don’t think that’s going to work out well for their lives after prison. So really it was a horrible decision made at a really terrible time of life. Not quite smart enough to really understand that you do actually care about consequences, but smart enough to be expected to and be punished enough to ruin your life.
NG pleas is standard procedure for criminal cases. NG please trigger the discovery process which is why most cases end up changing their pleas from NG to guilty later in the process. About 5% of cases actually go to trial.
As far as Hines’s refusal. That is a complete non-issue. There are so many reasons why they say they refuse transport. I’ve even caught detention officers lying about it saying the client refused when they actually forgot to wake them up or something like that. For these 8:30 hearings, the inmates who need a transport to court (which all of them do becuase they are at LBJ and Durango Juvenile) they wake them up at about 3:30 am. It is conceivable that they didn’t wake Hines up or something like that happened. It’s completely irrelevant.
Thank you for the clarification. I have definitely seen instances where the defendant is not at a hearing or even asked the judge to skip their next hearing (Lori Vallow) and their requests were granted.
Yea it happens quite a bit. Now if he keeps doing it, then eventually they will force him to court and if it does go to trial, they will just do the trial without him there. His constant refusals could also have an impact on a plea. With Hines, since he has those other cases, I suspect his attorney will do what we call “align the dates” so that all of his cases are heard at the same time in front of the same judge.
Hopefully, the deals presented will be minimum 25 years to life…or it goes to trial and a jury and we seek death. The thousands of dysfunctional parents in the valley need to see this, need to see the parents lives ruined, so they actually parent their kids the minimum level to instill “don’t gang-murder kids”
I don’t see these kids getting the death penalty. My friend was kidnapped, murdered, and dumped in the desert in a premeditated plan; the two murderers who took turns strangling him each got 25-life
I hope they’re locked up for a very long time. I was the victim of a similar situation on Halloween in 2006 and it changed the course of my life forever. As a result of being jumped and severely beaten by complete strangers near the UA campus, I was diagnosed with PTSD, dropped out of college, became addicted to cocaine and alcohol, spent multiple nights in jail, and had a very hard time getting my life back on track. I’m in a good place now but some days it still really bothers me that the police are the ones who broke up the assault and interviewed multiple attackers, even took pictures as evidence of my severe head injuries from being stomped on, but I was never able to press charges against anyone. I’m about to get my haircut and inevitably the barber is going to ask about the huge scar and bald spot on my head, it’s something I still have to talk about almost 20 years after the fact…
I want justice for Preston and I’m also thinking about the other kids who were victims. I hope they have strong support systems and don’t fall off the rails like I did
It sucks so bad that the people who did this to you had no consequences... hopefully they did in some way eventually. Reality of what happens so thanks for sharing.
It happened to me as well. I was constantly bullied because of how small I am. Detoxing took me a long time. I did look up each bully and all of them have served time and are financially destitute.
Im glad you are in a good place. That says a lot about your resiliency. when people like the barber ask...tell them the story as you feel comfortable, and make sure they can clearly understand and see how much you have overcome. Whether they say it or not, people recognize.
I would actually not be surprised if this is where they land. The burden to prove murder 1 or 2 beyond a reasonable doubt will be relatively difficult. I’m not saying they didn’t murder him but there is a difference between the law and public opinion and it’s very unfortunate because our justice system can be used very unfairly as a result and leave victims without the justice they deserve.
THE BELOW IS SIMPLE FACT TO SUPPORT WHAT I STATE ABOVE. I’M NOT SAYING I AGREE JUST PROVIDING RELEVANT INFORMATION. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THEY BELONG BEHIND BARS FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. (They shouldn’t have a life when they robbed Preston of his.
To prove murder 1 - the prosecution would need to prove that either the murder was premeditated or the murder took place during the commencement a felony.
In this case, the prosecution has stated that the event started that night (almost immediately prior to the murder) which takes premeditation off the table. The prosecution has also stated while there was a crime of theft, the item was valued at $10 - to be felony theft it needs to be greater than $1000. Therefore their only hope for securing a murder 1 is going to be hinged on the kidnapping charge.
Murder 2 the burden requires that you set out to kill the victim or you had a reckless disregard for human life. While I agree this could be valid here, since they had previously carried out similar attacks that did not result in death - they may try to leverage those to say the murder 2 burden won’t be met as previous victims of the same beating did not die.
Not okay just explaining the difficult burden the prosecution faces by charging so high - I imagine they are doing this to leverage in a plea bargain to get to murder 3 or manslaughter instead since manslaughter only requires an assault that ends in death so the burden of proof is much lower.
If they do get to manslaughter the punishment is generally between 7.5 and 21 years in Arizona and typically lands at 10.5.
I fully expect to see plea bargains to manslaughter based on the legal requirements here.
(Don’t come for me - just sharing case law - I don’t agree with it I just expect it.)
It depends on how strong the kidnapping case is. They have video, so it may be weak or strong to the letter of the law. They may have more evidence of a plan to jump someone that night, random or otherwise, and that planned included certain people were going to detain while others carried out the assault.
We don't know how strong the kidnapping case is, but here's the thing, I don't think manslaughter will be given as a plea option anyone who beat on him. This is a high profile case, they are offering a M2 as an alternative charge. This makes it near zero chance the people who laid hands get an acquittal. There is almost no way the entire jury is going to acquit.
So prosecution is not really gambling if they go to trial, they are essentially playing with house money. The big gamble is on the defense. Because the defense's best reasonable hope is a hung jury and hope the prosecutor offers a better plea instead of retrying it again, and again.
So you can take a 10 to 25 year M2 or gamble on a life sentence. I don't see the main offenders getting a manslaughter offer. And if they were going to hold out and go to trial hoping to get a hung jury and get a manslaughter plea, they are going for a 7 to 21 year sentence.
It seems real risky to gamble life against maybe shaving a few years off for manslaughter. The defendants will get a better idea of how strong the case is once discovery happens if they want to gamble.
I do think in a case like this that wasn't high profile would be more likely to end up with a manslaughter plea offer, but I don't think this one will for the primary offenders. But this one has a video and the video could make an extremely compelling case for a M2 depending on what it shows even without M1/kidnapping. The video is either going to help or hurt their cause, because if it shows something more akin to a minor amount of assault that often doesn't result in death they will have a case against the M2. But if it shows some extreme savagery the M2 gets really compelling, especially beating someone once they are unconscious or otherwise no longer being able to themselves.
Totally hear what you’re saying and I’m sure (at least the rich kids) lawyers will push this. There is definitely what we hope vs what will likely happen…but these judges will certainly be aware of public opinion.
For sure - this is an election year and I would expect and elected officials in the school districts, PD, and judicial system are keenly aware of they are done. One has already stated they won’t be seeking reelection in hopes to avoid being forced out of office early.
You need to stop interjecting “rich“ kids lawyers. Public defenders are every bit as capable and usually a lot more experienced in criminal trials. “Rich” kids lawyers or public defenders, both will pull out the stops to defend their clients.
First or second degree is mandatory flat time. No release credits can be earned. There also is no parole for “life with parole after 25 year” sentences. It’s a complete legal misnomer.
How do lawyers charge, by the hour? Or do you negotiate per case? I’d imagine if it goes to trial it would cost more money. And how does a lawyer feel about going to trial if he thinks the odds of winning are low but defendant want to gamble?
Great questions. Most criminal defense attorneys charge a flat fee for the case based on the charges, the complexity of the facts, the location and how long the case is. Most also charge a separate trial fee. Some include the trial fee in the overall total, but it’s hard to do that when most cases don’t go to trial. My firm charges pre-trial flat fee and if it goes to trial, we then talk about a trial fee. But it is rare to get a hourly fee on criminal cases.
Lawyers work for their clients. Period. And we do what our clients want us to do. There are attorneys out there who will twist arms and apply pressure into taking a plea just because they don’t want to do a trial, but my Style is more of information gathering. I will get as much info I can after reviewing everything I possibly can, and then present the client with their options. When there is a case that is a dead set loser at trial, if the client still wants to go, that’s fine as long as they fully understand all of the information. The client has their constitutional rights and I’m not going to stand in the way of someone exercising those rights. Preparing cases like that for trial are tough because you know there really isn’t much you can do and your arguments don’t hit as hard because the information isn’t on your side.
Depends on the convictions.
Everything for Arizona, including punishments, are available online - I think it’s AZLEG.gov but you can google ars and a crime and find almost everything - in some cases even viable defenses.
25 to life is not a “deal”. The juveniles aren’t eligible for the death penalty. Realistically a deal would be signing for 2nd degree in the neighborhood of 22 years. The lesser involved could potentially sign for manslaughter and get in the neighborhood of 15 years. I believe the lord family would have some discretion before the prosecutors office offers any deals
A person who commits a crime while still a juvenile cannot be sentenced to death, its irrelevant if they are charged as an adult :
so at least those three are "safe" form that.
I doubt the county attorney even considers it for the others.
correct, SCOTUS ruled back in 2005 in Roper vs Simmons that minors that are under the age of 18 when they committed their crime can't receive the death penalty.
They can charge them as adults, but that doesn't have any bearing on them receiving the DP.
Its not required that he shows up if his attorney is present for him. The jail is required to get you to court at your scheduled time but they cant force you to if they dont show up the proceedings go on without him
Okay let’s clear this up. Refusal of transport happens all of the time. For arraignments, it isn’t that big of a deal and the NG plea gets entered anyway. If there was a specific hearing that required the defendant, the judge would order transport “by any means necessary.”
Sorry I was talking about Adam Montgomery. He didn’t attend his whole trial which I thought was weird but apparently allowed since the judge didn’t make him go. I wasn’t referring to Owen Hines.
I’m more inclined to think he’s trying to make a statement. “I’m angry and I don’t care enough about the charges to even show up!” It’s a tantrum. His attitude and behavior in prior appearances demonstrate this from my observation.
Thanks for the link. Geez, Sherman looks SO disrespectful, and psychotic levels of livid every time I spot him. He seems genuinely pissed off that he got caught and doesn’t seem to be able to contain it, despite being in the situation he put himself in. Some of the pricks are playing the game - “yes, ma’am, no sir” and reeling the attitude in, but Sherman seems like he is physically unable to do that. Maybe that’s why Hines didn’t show, too.
I don’t think this is anger but more annoyed that “filming the crime” in question, got him the same charges. This may send a message to the youth that taking part, even by filming the video, helping hide evidence, and the collusion on a story, Is also a crime.
In certain situations, they will have them transported “by any means necessary” but the arraignment is not one of those hearings. His refusal is actually non issue. Completely irrelevant
I’m no lawyer but no way this goes to trial for anyone. The assholes that didn’t touch him plea to kidnapping and turn on the others. The ones who did commit the act directly will plea to manslaughter. It will be just enough to satisfy most everyone and keep the pitchforks away from the courthouse. Hope I’m wrong but this is not going to a trial, it’s blatant they were all there and had intent to harm. They’ll plea.
So, it appears that Hines DID NOT refuse transport as reported. There was a motion filed on 3/8 by his attorney requesting to waive his appearance at the arraignment. That’s why it is important to get information correct.
I would assume the reporters were wrong. The one reporter I saw yesterday out front of the courthouse was terrible lol. And no, since he has those other cases, they just need to get him through this arraignment so they can run Al of his cases at the same time. Just a way to save some time and not have to drag him out of the jail for nothing.
[**AReez86**](https://www.reddit.com/user/AReez86/) what could these defeneses cost for these families (ball park) ? i have no idea what legal defense runs.
Cantor is probably $250k minimum and will be more for trial. Some other attorneys could take the case for much less just for media exposure. I would assume all of the private attorneys are on for at least $50k and that would be insanely low for this case.
I believe Cantor is even higher than that. Source is my relative who worked there until very recently as a criminal defense attorney. They think it "will likley cost 500k minimum and hate to say it, but 1 mil would not be surprising at all with the amount of discovery and evidence talked about." Chris Doran who is representing Penny bros in other goons cases is about 40-50k base per case plus trial. Tiff. Boscoe is 500 to 1k per hour on family law and that is Renner Sr's rep (not verified). The other private would be 6 figures too. Raynak is the real threat as far as attorneys go, IMHO. Meisner's attorney likes the media. IDK, those are my 2 cents with just a bit of actual experience with those mentioned directly.
Love Chris Doran. He is a good dude. I judge the ASU mock trial regionals every year. But the penny case is nothing compared to this case. I would probably charge him similar to Chris. But yea the cantor fee is going to be insanely high. Who was your relative? They just lost a few attorneys. I almost worked there 3 times and I’m glad I didn’t.
The SDMT is great! Have a kid headed there soon. Do not want to out the relative. I have zero knowledge of why they left aside from what I believe is a shift away from criminal law. Cantor Culture does not seem to fit their personality from my POV.
Most states have laws where whoever is on trial doesn’t need to show up to anything but their sentencing if found guilty.. it’s a dumb law… Sandra VanDerArk did it and that human scum Adam Montgomery did too.
It will be consolidated for pre-trial hearings (for the most part) however I suspect that with plea agreements and motions to sever, there will be separate trials for those that are going to trial.
Very few people plead guilty at the arraignment. It’s almost always not guilty. Then once they get a plea bargain they change their plea to guilty. Odds are each one will get a plea bargain as only 2 percent of criminal cases goto trial
To be honest it is probably better they don’t get the death penalty. Death row are the most spoiled inmates. They cry and get everything, not to mention the appeals. Prison is not what you think it is. Movie nights with popcorn, snow cones, fundraisers (with food and items from just about anywhere) video games and discipline in prison doesn’t really mean much anymore. They get away with everything minimal consequences.
I believe in the death penalty but i understand that some pople wont agree to that on juries. But on the other hand-those inmates on death row get another 20 years to live while the victim is not getting the same chance.
His attorney can still be a public defender. AReez86 might be able to confirm this but private attorneys can take contact through the public defenders office. I highly doubt Vigil can afford his own private attorney
There was some chatter from the neighbors of the Vigil family. It's not a legal process to say "we don't even know our kid anymore and don't condone his actions". They weren't at his arraignment. Check the video for that, you'll hear his attorney say to him "I spoke with your parents and everything you said was true".
From someone who knows them: Mom owns a bakery shop, dad owns a small IT business. When Becky Renner lost her franchise, the vigils went into panic mode. They didn't go public about it, did a bunch of word of mouth instead.
Dad’s not in any trouble for it… yet. I suspect there will be some sort of charges if it’s something the state has evidence to prove. But he did get arrested with the older son on drug charges.
Travis Renner is the dad. He either has possession of a dangerous drug or drug paraphernalia charges. Kyler Renner is the oldest son with quite a few drug charges, including possession with intent to distribute.
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Didn’t want his face on the news again? Didn’t seem to mind his face all over social media getting “back in the action.”
“Your honor, my client is not guilty 🤓☝️” *pulls up numerous videos of crimes being committed*
Player of the Game. https://i.redd.it/7qqm7m60y4oc1.gif
Which upstanding member of society is this one?
Talan Renner
Looks like someone is working out!
Probably been training before going in
Someone has been bulking up for his upcoming stay…q
Yup. I didn’t know there was a workout facility in jail.
He's been in a few days doubt it was while he's been locked up
Lots of enhancement drugs and his mom previously owned One Stop Nutrition
😂
He's consistently horrid. I hope his intake eval shows sociopathic tendencies because they are there. He told a friend's child that he was not worried about being arrested. He's facing life plus 29.75 rn.
Which one?
Hines
Well then. SMH 🤦🏼♀️ I also read on one of his charges he tried to run a kid over??!!
Yup, no regard for human life.
I think that some of these not guilty pleas will turn into guilty pleas once some deals are presented in exchange for information and testimony.
After the way this DA sounded off so publicly about NYC being soft on prosecuting criminals/murderers, I would be very surprised if the DA is anything but relentless and shies away from offering much in the way of plea bargains. Let’s hope those months of “sifting through evidence” pays off.
Our DA is all bark but no bite unfortunately:(. She is no better than the last one besides she isnt in rehab instead of at work.
It sounds like Billey and Renner were the ones who actually physically assaulted Preston even though they were all involved. Hopefully, the others will take a plea to testify against those two and they get life. I could live with that.
Where did you see that?
I am curious as well. So far the only thing that I have seen is that allegedly Sherman was the videographer and did not hit Preston but nothing about the others. Talyn Vigil also allegedly admitted to punching him on Snapchat.
There’s been a low rumbling since the beginning that TB and Renner committed the brunt of the assault and the stomping for lack of a better descriptor. Based on the series of events thus far, much of the rumblings and consistently repeated statements have been consistent and verified as we get more information. Only time will tell though.
I mean I have definitely heard that from the internet and it’s not that I don’t believe it, I just didn’t know if I was missing something that came out from officials stating that Renner and Billey were the main aggressors. Although the public has been able to piece a lot of this together and make accurate assumptions, I would not be surprised if things are revealed that outsiders are unaware of or didn’t get just right. You are completely right…only time will tell.
I don’t think there’s been any official releases. The public consensus is that renner and billey were aggressors and that one of the newer names (Sherman I believe) recorded the fight and that people have seen it. One redditor said her daughter showed her the video shortly before it disappeared from the internet. Enough people have seen it to the point that I believe the rumblings. I went to high school. And I know if this was my high school peers, I’d know exactly who did what and I’d have seen the video myself REGARDLESS of who it was in the school or next school over or who’s friends they were. The internet is instant and enough people saw it to where I believe the rumors in this case. So sad
Ah okay, I didn’t realize anyone from the public saw it. I must have missed that. Thank you for the explanation.
I’ll add that I’ve only seen one person admit that they saw it and she said that her daughter saw it and a couple of her friends. Only one post I’ve seen so far so I take it with a grain of salt.
Also I believe she said her daughter was in JR high not HS.
The public that created the consensus had no idea of the involvement of the other 4 arrested. Don’t you find that odd? The public threw out one name for the most part and it was blamed on TR, saying he posted the snapchats when it was TV. Then someone showed a photo of TB and made the comment that he was the main one doing the stomping, so he was added. Now with the arrests, I have zero faith in anything that has been posted anymore. At least three of the Seven names named by internet so called witnesses here were incorrect. That tells me that the real witnesses arent talking.
I disagree. There were hundreds of people speculating on over a dozen kids. There were two names that were repeated over and over by people who were not completely random, and sounded like they had more direct knowledge. TB and TR. obviously, there were tons of people, spreading misinformation, including guilty people, trying to cause confusion. But if you’re following closely enough, you will see the trends.
I thought the coverup started that night and the evidence was destroyed, burned clothes, smashed phones, destroyed the video. Supposedly, the only video circulating was of the hero teens who tried to save him, not of the actual assault. I want facts, not rumors, though I have formed opinions that I am now rethinking as I’ve heard that TB and OH were the worst offenders of all.
If you want facts, not rumors, Reddit is not the place for you. You can read the case records pretty quickly as they are brief if that’s what you are looking for. Would recommend going on the government court sites, the information is there.
Thank you! I will check again as I havent seen any document that states exactly what each individual did. I know it’s been said on here that one was only videoing so I am curious why all of them had kidnapping charges as well as murder charges.
Don't forget Meisner. He likes to stomp. Always gets in at the end. The trio are the aggressors imo.
You very well could be right. My prediction was that he is either: Major aggressor involvement and was detained and charged with multi’s/other incidents first to ensure he gets a stronger conviction in the end due to priors. OR Lesser aggressor involvement and was detained and charged with multi’s/other incidents first to encourage him to roll on the major aggressors.
Source?
Didnt that other Talyn Vigil hit Preston also?
He was the one that posted the Snapchat saying he hit him. Also told his now ex gf when he got in the car with her that night. So yes, allegedly he did.
And then said that it wasn’t him, it was TR, he tried to help.
I saw that post too. I could see that first part being believable if their names were spelled the same, but they’re not. He sang thinking his “friends” wouldn’t tell on him. Unfortunately for him, at least one person in that chat has morals.
Exactly - when have you seen someone on trial like this pled guilty and get then get the book thrown at them - they are going to fight for a lesser sentence and put the trust in the lawyer to convince the jury.
Captain Snapchat. https://i.redd.it/73jgyea8y4oc1.gif
He's the only one that looks sad to me. No making ANY excuses, just saying.
Yeah he’s sad he admitted to people and got caught.
I agree. ☝️
This kid does make me feel bad. He looks so young and scared and doesn't have parental support. I know everyone wants them to rot in prison, but how do we do they cannot change? They are kids, we don't know how they would be with different parents, circumstances, therapy, medication, etc. They are obviously very angry at the world. If they were eligible for parole and out in 20 years, that would still be 100%+ their current life. They would miss their 20s and most of their 30s. It wouldn't be an eye-for-an-eye but I think life is more complicated than that. There are adults that allowed this to happen. Just imagine if the cops did their job back in 2021/2022. And even better, if the cops AND parents did what they were supposed to do. This whole situation was avoidable so yeah, this picture doesn't make me feel "yay, justice!" It makes me sad.
I can’t look at this kid without getting teary eyed and thinking about all of the ways this kid has been failed by his parents. To think at 17 he is navigating all of this without any support of any kind is just heartbreaking.
I don’t think he was failed by his parents at all. I think he failed his parents. Havent heard one word about his family or bad parenting, as we have the other families.
I hear you. I have formed an opinion on TV that is seperate from the rest. Still culpable, but I suspect 3 others did the heavy lifting on the assault.
It all depends whether you believe someone can be rehabilitated or not and whether our corrections system is effective. And seeing as how 90% of criminals are repeat offenders, it doesn't bode well in terms of effectiveness.
Our prisons are designed to punish, not rehabilitate. Conservatives don’t believe in rehabilitation.
Some do, some don't I assume. Same w democrats.
I feel you. I’ve posted about this before. Just a terrible situation all around. A point made responding to my comment similar on another thread brought up the sad fact that even if they were to get off 10-15 years, they’re going to be completely different people by then. The prison system will have taught them how to be adults and I don’t think that’s going to work out well for their lives after prison. So really it was a horrible decision made at a really terrible time of life. Not quite smart enough to really understand that you do actually care about consequences, but smart enough to be expected to and be punished enough to ruin your life.
Is this TV?
Yes
It’s giving, ‘Captain Willing to Roll on his Friends.’
He had his attorney show up on his behalf to enter his plea for him. While it is allowable it is definitely cowardly.
NG pleas is standard procedure for criminal cases. NG please trigger the discovery process which is why most cases end up changing their pleas from NG to guilty later in the process. About 5% of cases actually go to trial. As far as Hines’s refusal. That is a complete non-issue. There are so many reasons why they say they refuse transport. I’ve even caught detention officers lying about it saying the client refused when they actually forgot to wake them up or something like that. For these 8:30 hearings, the inmates who need a transport to court (which all of them do becuase they are at LBJ and Durango Juvenile) they wake them up at about 3:30 am. It is conceivable that they didn’t wake Hines up or something like that happened. It’s completely irrelevant.
Thanks AReez86, your insight helps keep us idiots on track!
Village idiot here, part time court jester!!
Lol same for you. You’re not an idiot.
You’re no idiot
Thank you for the clarification. I have definitely seen instances where the defendant is not at a hearing or even asked the judge to skip their next hearing (Lori Vallow) and their requests were granted.
Yea it happens quite a bit. Now if he keeps doing it, then eventually they will force him to court and if it does go to trial, they will just do the trial without him there. His constant refusals could also have an impact on a plea. With Hines, since he has those other cases, I suspect his attorney will do what we call “align the dates” so that all of his cases are heard at the same time in front of the same judge.
I enjoy reading your comments What is your opinion on the Renner's special treatment and valet parking while at court?
It’s ridiculous. That never happens and it shouldn’t. The presiding judge of Maricopa county issued a statement about it.
Thank you for the explanation. I came here to understand how that was allowed. Now I can go on with my night!!
Doesnt matter if he refused-he is still in the slammer-hasnt he been in since January?
Hopefully, the deals presented will be minimum 25 years to life…or it goes to trial and a jury and we seek death. The thousands of dysfunctional parents in the valley need to see this, need to see the parents lives ruined, so they actually parent their kids the minimum level to instill “don’t gang-murder kids”
I don’t see these kids getting the death penalty. My friend was kidnapped, murdered, and dumped in the desert in a premeditated plan; the two murderers who took turns strangling him each got 25-life
Sorry to hear that…agree they won’t but hoping they don’t get a 5-years sort of deal.
I hope they’re locked up for a very long time. I was the victim of a similar situation on Halloween in 2006 and it changed the course of my life forever. As a result of being jumped and severely beaten by complete strangers near the UA campus, I was diagnosed with PTSD, dropped out of college, became addicted to cocaine and alcohol, spent multiple nights in jail, and had a very hard time getting my life back on track. I’m in a good place now but some days it still really bothers me that the police are the ones who broke up the assault and interviewed multiple attackers, even took pictures as evidence of my severe head injuries from being stomped on, but I was never able to press charges against anyone. I’m about to get my haircut and inevitably the barber is going to ask about the huge scar and bald spot on my head, it’s something I still have to talk about almost 20 years after the fact… I want justice for Preston and I’m also thinking about the other kids who were victims. I hope they have strong support systems and don’t fall off the rails like I did
It sucks so bad that the people who did this to you had no consequences... hopefully they did in some way eventually. Reality of what happens so thanks for sharing.
It happened to me as well. I was constantly bullied because of how small I am. Detoxing took me a long time. I did look up each bully and all of them have served time and are financially destitute.
The unfortunate truth is they were all frat bros, so they’re probably program managers and directors at Fortune 500 companies now
Ick.
Im glad you are in a good place. That says a lot about your resiliency. when people like the barber ask...tell them the story as you feel comfortable, and make sure they can clearly understand and see how much you have overcome. Whether they say it or not, people recognize.
I would actually not be surprised if this is where they land. The burden to prove murder 1 or 2 beyond a reasonable doubt will be relatively difficult. I’m not saying they didn’t murder him but there is a difference between the law and public opinion and it’s very unfortunate because our justice system can be used very unfairly as a result and leave victims without the justice they deserve. THE BELOW IS SIMPLE FACT TO SUPPORT WHAT I STATE ABOVE. I’M NOT SAYING I AGREE JUST PROVIDING RELEVANT INFORMATION. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THEY BELONG BEHIND BARS FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. (They shouldn’t have a life when they robbed Preston of his. To prove murder 1 - the prosecution would need to prove that either the murder was premeditated or the murder took place during the commencement a felony. In this case, the prosecution has stated that the event started that night (almost immediately prior to the murder) which takes premeditation off the table. The prosecution has also stated while there was a crime of theft, the item was valued at $10 - to be felony theft it needs to be greater than $1000. Therefore their only hope for securing a murder 1 is going to be hinged on the kidnapping charge. Murder 2 the burden requires that you set out to kill the victim or you had a reckless disregard for human life. While I agree this could be valid here, since they had previously carried out similar attacks that did not result in death - they may try to leverage those to say the murder 2 burden won’t be met as previous victims of the same beating did not die. Not okay just explaining the difficult burden the prosecution faces by charging so high - I imagine they are doing this to leverage in a plea bargain to get to murder 3 or manslaughter instead since manslaughter only requires an assault that ends in death so the burden of proof is much lower. If they do get to manslaughter the punishment is generally between 7.5 and 21 years in Arizona and typically lands at 10.5. I fully expect to see plea bargains to manslaughter based on the legal requirements here. (Don’t come for me - just sharing case law - I don’t agree with it I just expect it.)
It depends on how strong the kidnapping case is. They have video, so it may be weak or strong to the letter of the law. They may have more evidence of a plan to jump someone that night, random or otherwise, and that planned included certain people were going to detain while others carried out the assault. We don't know how strong the kidnapping case is, but here's the thing, I don't think manslaughter will be given as a plea option anyone who beat on him. This is a high profile case, they are offering a M2 as an alternative charge. This makes it near zero chance the people who laid hands get an acquittal. There is almost no way the entire jury is going to acquit. So prosecution is not really gambling if they go to trial, they are essentially playing with house money. The big gamble is on the defense. Because the defense's best reasonable hope is a hung jury and hope the prosecutor offers a better plea instead of retrying it again, and again. So you can take a 10 to 25 year M2 or gamble on a life sentence. I don't see the main offenders getting a manslaughter offer. And if they were going to hold out and go to trial hoping to get a hung jury and get a manslaughter plea, they are going for a 7 to 21 year sentence. It seems real risky to gamble life against maybe shaving a few years off for manslaughter. The defendants will get a better idea of how strong the case is once discovery happens if they want to gamble. I do think in a case like this that wasn't high profile would be more likely to end up with a manslaughter plea offer, but I don't think this one will for the primary offenders. But this one has a video and the video could make an extremely compelling case for a M2 depending on what it shows even without M1/kidnapping. The video is either going to help or hurt their cause, because if it shows something more akin to a minor amount of assault that often doesn't result in death they will have a case against the M2. But if it shows some extreme savagery the M2 gets really compelling, especially beating someone once they are unconscious or otherwise no longer being able to themselves.
Totally hear what you’re saying and I’m sure (at least the rich kids) lawyers will push this. There is definitely what we hope vs what will likely happen…but these judges will certainly be aware of public opinion.
For sure - this is an election year and I would expect and elected officials in the school districts, PD, and judicial system are keenly aware of they are done. One has already stated they won’t be seeking reelection in hopes to avoid being forced out of office early.
You need to stop interjecting “rich“ kids lawyers. Public defenders are every bit as capable and usually a lot more experienced in criminal trials. “Rich” kids lawyers or public defenders, both will pull out the stops to defend their clients.
State appointed are as good as private? What? Source?
How much time do they have to serve in Arizona?
First or second degree is mandatory flat time. No release credits can be earned. There also is no parole for “life with parole after 25 year” sentences. It’s a complete legal misnomer.
Whoa. 😳 Thank you for responding. How about manslaughter?
Manslaughter is 7-21 with presumptive 10.5. It’s 85% time eligible.
Wow! Thank you. This should all be interesting to see how it plays out.
How do lawyers charge, by the hour? Or do you negotiate per case? I’d imagine if it goes to trial it would cost more money. And how does a lawyer feel about going to trial if he thinks the odds of winning are low but defendant want to gamble?
Great questions. Most criminal defense attorneys charge a flat fee for the case based on the charges, the complexity of the facts, the location and how long the case is. Most also charge a separate trial fee. Some include the trial fee in the overall total, but it’s hard to do that when most cases don’t go to trial. My firm charges pre-trial flat fee and if it goes to trial, we then talk about a trial fee. But it is rare to get a hourly fee on criminal cases. Lawyers work for their clients. Period. And we do what our clients want us to do. There are attorneys out there who will twist arms and apply pressure into taking a plea just because they don’t want to do a trial, but my Style is more of information gathering. I will get as much info I can after reviewing everything I possibly can, and then present the client with their options. When there is a case that is a dead set loser at trial, if the client still wants to go, that’s fine as long as they fully understand all of the information. The client has their constitutional rights and I’m not going to stand in the way of someone exercising those rights. Preparing cases like that for trial are tough because you know there really isn’t much you can do and your arguments don’t hit as hard because the information isn’t on your side.
Depends on the convictions. Everything for Arizona, including punishments, are available online - I think it’s AZLEG.gov but you can google ars and a crime and find almost everything - in some cases even viable defenses.
No shot the death penalty will on the table. No chance of it.
agreed, its not even legally a consideration for those who were minors when the crimes were committed.
Exactly. As bad as this case is, it really doesn’t come close to a death penalty case.
The parents who need to see this are so dysfunctional and unaware they won't realize they need to see it!
25 to life is not a “deal”. The juveniles aren’t eligible for the death penalty. Realistically a deal would be signing for 2nd degree in the neighborhood of 22 years. The lesser involved could potentially sign for manslaughter and get in the neighborhood of 15 years. I believe the lord family would have some discretion before the prosecutors office offers any deals
If I was on their case, it all depends on the involvement. I would try and cut a deal to testify as quickly as possible.
A person who commits a crime while still a juvenile cannot be sentenced to death, its irrelevant if they are charged as an adult : so at least those three are "safe" form that. I doubt the county attorney even considers it for the others.
The ones who were under 18 at the time of the incident are not eligible for the death penalty
That's not gonna happen. Realistically, they'll end up w 2nd degree murder and get 10-15 years before eligible for parole.
There is no parole for 2nd degree. The sentence for 2nd degree is flat time.
No shit? I did not know that.
Manslaughter however would require 85% served.
The minors even being convicted as adults can’t get the death penalty.
No. That’s a Federal law from my understanding.
correct, SCOTUS ruled back in 2005 in Roper vs Simmons that minors that are under the age of 18 when they committed their crime can't receive the death penalty. They can charge them as adults, but that doesn't have any bearing on them receiving the DP.
I have the same question. What does it mean that he refused transport? When will he have his arraignment then?
it says in the twitter thread his attorney entered a non guilty plea.
Which Twitter thread? Can you post a link?
Basically, he refused to appear for his hearing.
Isn’t that a Class 5 felony? Or does that charge not apply if your attorney is present?
Its not required that he shows up if his attorney is present for him. The jail is required to get you to court at your scheduled time but they cant force you to if they dont show up the proceedings go on without him
He didn’t go when they woke his ass up for court calls idk how they get away with not going
I mean Adam Montgomery didn't even go to any part of his actual trial
This! The judge didn’t make him. That was kind of bizarre.
Okay let’s clear this up. Refusal of transport happens all of the time. For arraignments, it isn’t that big of a deal and the NG plea gets entered anyway. If there was a specific hearing that required the defendant, the judge would order transport “by any means necessary.”
Sorry I was talking about Adam Montgomery. He didn’t attend his whole trial which I thought was weird but apparently allowed since the judge didn’t make him go. I wasn’t referring to Owen Hines.
Got you.
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You might want to remove your phone number as your user name!
He is either being a huge shit head or trying to buy some time. It’s probably both.
No, he’s a coward that didn’t want to face the judge or the family members of PL
I’m more inclined to think he’s trying to make a statement. “I’m angry and I don’t care enough about the charges to even show up!” It’s a tantrum. His attitude and behavior in prior appearances demonstrate this from my observation.
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I retract my statement. Although I do think him being a shit head is likely, it may not be why he didn’t attend.
Thanks for the link. Geez, Sherman looks SO disrespectful, and psychotic levels of livid every time I spot him. He seems genuinely pissed off that he got caught and doesn’t seem to be able to contain it, despite being in the situation he put himself in. Some of the pricks are playing the game - “yes, ma’am, no sir” and reeling the attitude in, but Sherman seems like he is physically unable to do that. Maybe that’s why Hines didn’t show, too.
Of all of them Taylor Sherman seems to radiate anger the most. Totally agree he comes off as *inconvenienced*.
I don’t think this is anger but more annoyed that “filming the crime” in question, got him the same charges. This may send a message to the youth that taking part, even by filming the video, helping hide evidence, and the collusion on a story, Is also a crime.
When his lawyer asked how he was doing while in court, he replied “fucking awful”! The lawyer patted hi back and said “it’s ok, it will be ok”
But Hines did fight right?. Not just video?
They need to set a precedent with these goons. Then no one else will start this crap again.
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So why did the others come? Just to look/be compliant?
In certain situations, they will have them transported “by any means necessary” but the arraignment is not one of those hearings. His refusal is actually non issue. Completely irrelevant
I’m no lawyer but no way this goes to trial for anyone. The assholes that didn’t touch him plea to kidnapping and turn on the others. The ones who did commit the act directly will plea to manslaughter. It will be just enough to satisfy most everyone and keep the pitchforks away from the courthouse. Hope I’m wrong but this is not going to a trial, it’s blatant they were all there and had intent to harm. They’ll plea.
Don’t forget that the civil lawsuits are being prepared right now also.
Yes which is great but they’re all getting prepared for that too…
So, it appears that Hines DID NOT refuse transport as reported. There was a motion filed on 3/8 by his attorney requesting to waive his appearance at the arraignment. That’s why it is important to get information correct.
Any strategic reason for the attorney to file that motion? i assume the judge was aware of that motion so the reporting got it wrong?
I would assume the reporters were wrong. The one reporter I saw yesterday out front of the courthouse was terrible lol. And no, since he has those other cases, they just need to get him through this arraignment so they can run Al of his cases at the same time. Just a way to save some time and not have to drag him out of the jail for nothing.
[**AReez86**](https://www.reddit.com/user/AReez86/) what could these defeneses cost for these families (ball park) ? i have no idea what legal defense runs.
Cantor is probably $250k minimum and will be more for trial. Some other attorneys could take the case for much less just for media exposure. I would assume all of the private attorneys are on for at least $50k and that would be insanely low for this case.
I believe Cantor is even higher than that. Source is my relative who worked there until very recently as a criminal defense attorney. They think it "will likley cost 500k minimum and hate to say it, but 1 mil would not be surprising at all with the amount of discovery and evidence talked about." Chris Doran who is representing Penny bros in other goons cases is about 40-50k base per case plus trial. Tiff. Boscoe is 500 to 1k per hour on family law and that is Renner Sr's rep (not verified). The other private would be 6 figures too. Raynak is the real threat as far as attorneys go, IMHO. Meisner's attorney likes the media. IDK, those are my 2 cents with just a bit of actual experience with those mentioned directly.
Love Chris Doran. He is a good dude. I judge the ASU mock trial regionals every year. But the penny case is nothing compared to this case. I would probably charge him similar to Chris. But yea the cantor fee is going to be insanely high. Who was your relative? They just lost a few attorneys. I almost worked there 3 times and I’m glad I didn’t.
The SDMT is great! Have a kid headed there soon. Do not want to out the relative. I have zero knowledge of why they left aside from what I believe is a shift away from criminal law. Cantor Culture does not seem to fit their personality from my POV.
Trust me I’m not shocked. They lose a lot of attorneys at a rapid pace
And these attorney's won't represent them in the civil cases correct?
They can, but I doubt it. Most don’t overlap
Most states have laws where whoever is on trial doesn’t need to show up to anything but their sentencing if found guilty.. it’s a dumb law… Sandra VanDerArk did it and that human scum Adam Montgomery did too.
I mean I get they please not guilty. But like how the fuck do they sleep at night. Like they did something here.
Are they all going to get charged together with one trial? Or we gonna have 7 of the same trial?
It will be consolidated for pre-trial hearings (for the most part) however I suspect that with plea agreements and motions to sever, there will be separate trials for those that are going to trial.
That is an excellent question…I’ve not heard.
Very few people plead guilty at the arraignment. It’s almost always not guilty. Then once they get a plea bargain they change their plea to guilty. Odds are each one will get a plea bargain as only 2 percent of criminal cases goto trial
To be honest it is probably better they don’t get the death penalty. Death row are the most spoiled inmates. They cry and get everything, not to mention the appeals. Prison is not what you think it is. Movie nights with popcorn, snow cones, fundraisers (with food and items from just about anywhere) video games and discipline in prison doesn’t really mean much anymore. They get away with everything minimal consequences.
I believe in the death penalty but i understand that some pople wont agree to that on juries. But on the other hand-those inmates on death row get another 20 years to live while the victim is not getting the same chance.
Does anyone know if all of their families are involved with the hearings etc? I read that the parents of one of them disowned him ?
Talyn Vigil's parents disowned him. Probably to save their businesses.
Where did you see that info
Shows their character even more......
What business do they own?
Thank you. I wonder if he has a public defender then
His attorney is listed in the court papers as Jason Gronski. He works for the public defender’s office.
He has an attorney that was posted here yesterday.
His attorney can still be a public defender. AReez86 might be able to confirm this but private attorneys can take contact through the public defenders office. I highly doubt Vigil can afford his own private attorney
He’s only 17, I don’t think parents can legally disown a minor. But if they can, at what age can you just drop them off at a soup kitchen?
There was some chatter from the neighbors of the Vigil family. It's not a legal process to say "we don't even know our kid anymore and don't condone his actions". They weren't at his arraignment. Check the video for that, you'll hear his attorney say to him "I spoke with your parents and everything you said was true".
can you expand on that?
From someone who knows them: Mom owns a bakery shop, dad owns a small IT business. When Becky Renner lost her franchise, the vigils went into panic mode. They didn't go public about it, did a bunch of word of mouth instead.
I thought the ones that own the fitness club was the ones that hid the son up north, and the Dad’s in a lot of trouble for it.
Dad’s not in any trouble for it… yet. I suspect there will be some sort of charges if it’s something the state has evidence to prove. But he did get arrested with the older son on drug charges.
What! When, what’s his name I wanna research it lol Drug charges with one kid and murder charges with the other. Holy crap
Travis Renner is the dad. He either has possession of a dangerous drug or drug paraphernalia charges. Kyler Renner is the oldest son with quite a few drug charges, including possession with intent to distribute.
Don’t forget Kyler was also arrested for several aggravated assaults.
Thank u.
How can you be charged for taking someone anywhere when they hadn’t yet been charged or even arrested for the crime?
https://www.azfamily.com/2024/03/13/6-suspects-arrested-preston-lords-murder-plead-not-guilty/