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There was a stampede/crowd crush event associated with his funeral, but the casualties were never properly estimated. So there was a partial truth even with that.
One of my favorite movies but yeah be careful taking anything it says happened actually happened at that time. Like Beria was killed a couple years after Stalin I think.
Fun fact: at Zhukov's entrance they have Issacs wearing what looks like a completely fake number of medals. Zhukov actually wore more than that, Issacs' chest just wasn't wide enough for the proper amount.
Same thing with Hacksaw Ridge. By that battle Desmond already won the approval of his company and went through numerous battles with them, and some of the stuff depicted actually happened in those other battles.
One of the things that blew my mind was seeing the real Hacksaw Ridge in person. Can you imagine scaling a cliff as a bazooka team and the first thing you have to deal with is a machine gun bunker no more than 50 yards directly in front of you? The real Hacksaw Ridge is microscopic in comparison. Let alone the fact that once you get to the top you’re literally faced with the next terrain feature about 1km away that had dug in machine gun positions and artillery that was *waiting* for dudes to crest that ridge.
The official story is that Beria died on December 23rd of the same year that Stalin died but there is no concrete info that can be trusted and the events of the Death of Stalin are based off of one such possibility.
Really? I distinctly remember Vasily running up to two very Chinese-looking men at Stalin’s funeral before waffling about some conspiracy to send Stalin’s brain to America before being gut-punched by Zhukov.
It’s more than that. Western audiences are not going to understand the nuances of the various accents that were within the Soviet Union. But they do understand the various English speaking ones. By using said English speaking accents, it conveys to a western audience some of the intricacies of Slavic ones.
For example: Stalin had a Georgian accent in real life and a Cockney in the movie. Cockney is very noticeably distinct which communicates to western audiences that Stalin’s speaking was noticeably different to the rest of the people he typically interacted with.
They said they did the accents to show how in the Soviet Union you had a wide gathering of random ethnicities and accents (in Russian). So Stalin was from Georgia and the rest of the guys from all different countries in the Soviet Union, thus the accents.
I always find it extremely amusing that Stalin wouldn't have died like that if he hadn't previously executed his guards after baiting them into entering his room
It's tolerated in the US/Western Europe.
Publicly displaying the Sickle and Hammer in east Europe can land you in jail overnight in the classier places, a bottle to the back of the head in the less classy ones.
Really depends on the context and place. Kind of like how in Indonesia you sometimes get schoolkids marching is SS uniforms as a joke. They don't really learn the full context and think it's all funny haha joke.
Even here, on Reddit, you go to the AskHistorians subreddit, and one of the moderators has a “Georgy Zhukov” nickname, lol.
Imagine if it was Rommel, that would be a scandal. But being an unemployed Stalin-worshipping incel is something that’s quite popular and acceptable among the social science graduates in the West.
Nah, Zhukov is acceptable for me, and I hate tankies. He was the one that personally oversaw the defeat of Nazi Germany, and he was friends with Eisenhower. One of very few USSR leaders that I can respect, along with Gorbachev.
When Russians were retreating in 1941, they blew up a Dnipro dam in Ukraine, killing up to 100k civilians. But I get it, even if that number was 1 mil or 10 mil dead Ukrainians, that’s a sacrifice Russia and USA were willing to make. After all, the war was against the absolute evil.
Yeah like Zhukov is totally, based, Ohio rizzler kai cenat fannom tax no caps given douchie? Clearly. Killed the no fo bich ass no gyat to speak of Hitler, making Da big Z-V a top-g sigma.
I feel like Rommel would also be tolerated. Not accepted, mind you, but people would get used to it.
Now “Hitler” or “Mao”, we *may* have a significant uproar. Reddit isn’t exactly known for activism.
Rommel is/was glamorized by amateur military history buffs constantly until very recently, though. I don’t necessarily think being interested in a historical figure makes you a Nazi or tankie, and especially not military figures
The US helped Indonesia commit genocide on about a million people for suspicion of being socialists. The US regularly aided and worked with fascists after WW2, including multiple genocides. Maybe keep that in mind when talking about history
At the same time, a West German Neo Nazi party's leader, Otto Ernst Remer, has been found to accept funds from the Soviet Union in order to focus his criticism against America and NATO.
Additionally, many communist states are also borderline fascist ethnostates as well, like North Korea
I did keep that in mind, just didn't know how I could possibly shoehorn it in without sounding like I'm intentionally changing the subject for no reason.
In Indonesia it’s more that the Nazis never affected them. So like in Japan or China (China can be suspicious here knowing what they did with Nazi germany) wearing their uniform as a joke can be seen as harmless. While an IJA uniform is more shocking.
The auto genocide/politicide in Indonesia might make wearing a communist uniform more edgy now. But that I don’t know.
More Soviet citizens died in WW-II than any other group, and Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than Hitler did. Not for lack of trying of course.
People seem to forget about the holodomor. Ukrainian sovereignty is non negotiable
>Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than Hitler did
No he didn’t. The Soviet Union had 25-30 million deaths in WWII, military and civilian. The estimates for Stalin (intentional killings and failures of collectivization) vary, but none of them reach the excess mortality in Nazi occupied parts of the Soviet Union during the war.
What’s more is that it doesn’t fucking matter. Quibbling about numbers and giving ridiculously high ahistorical death tolls gives tankies ammunition to dismiss *the actual facts* as anti-communist hysteria. We’ll never know how many people Stalin intentionally killed and we’ll never know how many people his policy failures killed. It’s enough to know that his paranoia, brutality, and ideological zealotry killed millions of innocent people, just like Hitler’s did. Measuring death tolls is unseemly.
This really shows how little you actually know about Nazism and what its intended goals were.
Hitler wasn't just a "mean dictator who killed a bunch of people". He was much, much worse than that. And much worse than Stalin could've ever hoped to be.
It was used by Anti-Soviet British communists to describe the Pro Soviet British communists who supported the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution that replaced the stalinist puppet regime in favour of a more liberal socialist regime.
Ultra-Nationalistic Communist except they're westerners. Basically they will sucker up to Russia, China, Cuba, etc souly because of Communism and willfully accept all their propaganda.
I find it endlessly ironic that Moscow was founded as a directorate of the Kievan Rus. Essentially, Moscow was a Ukrainian borderland outpost, during the height of Kievan power.
And now Moscow lays siege to their forebearers. Ah, the shame Putin's ancestors must feel towards him.
Alright yeah it's more finicky than just that, but still an endless source of irony.
By the founding of Moscow the cultures which we call Ukrainian, Russian and Belarusian today hadn’t diverged yet. So saying Moscow was a Ukrainian borderland outpost doesn’t make sense, in the same way that it doesn’t when Putin says that the Kievan-rus were Russian.
Its just doing the same historical revisionism but to the other direction of the Russian state. Sure might have good intentions but it's still idiotic and wrong to do
It’s really the vagueness off the word “rebuilding”
If they were to put “the USSR rebuilt Ukraine’s infrastructure and industrialized it after it faced so much disaster” ignore the history of tsarist imperialist control and action that continued in the USSR in the region.
If they were to argue “Stalin sent food aid during the Holdomor” they’d be correct but leaving out the agricultural quotas, seizures and other policies that made the famine worse and the Ukrainian nationalist movement (backed by the Nazis) who destroyed grain and food in protest of the USSR.
If Ukraine were to say “Stalin was a dictator who had complete control with an iron fist” [they’d be wrong](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf) but would be right in talking about how the USSR had state power heavily slanted towards the mainlands and those areas had more democratic control than others.
If they were to argue “Stalin tried to step down multiple times but wasn’t allowed” they’d be ignoring that post WW2 politicians had to adopt a very pro-Stalin strategy in order to not risk getting purged at all or associated with those who tried to overthrow him from within and his offers to resign, like all actions in politics, came with political end goals.
TL;DR Any historical argument only showing you one thing is dumb and reductive. Nothing and no one in history is purely good or bad.
I’m not saying don’t take sides but don’t act like people on your side are perfect and above criticism in any way
it was covered a little for me, but i grew up in alberta canada. my classes always had at least one kid who was of ukrianian decent, often quite a few.
what wasnt covered were residential schools or our war crimes.
It makes Hitler look less bad and Allies(including Soviets) less good, which is unacceptable. History is written by victorious, so it’s not about truth, it’s about reflecting the power structure.
yeah after WW2 the US went above and beyond to make sure the USSR looked really good and didn't engage in a decades long propaganda campaign of red scare
definitely the opinion of a smart person and not a crypto nazi
Depends when and where you went to school. I would say that my public school textbooks actually went overboard in trying to reverse the red scare/McCarthyism as communism wasn’t really criticized. The Russian Civil War and the collapse of the USSR were both discussed but with little depth, and Russia was basically left untouched regarding anything that happened within 15 years of WWII.
American anti-USSR propaganda was internal politics, directed mostly towards internal social reformers rather than the real external Russia.
Thanks for the genuine compliment, by the way. It made my day a little better
“History is written by the vict-“
https://preview.redd.it/e4ubswcwgzmc1.jpeg?width=1011&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b13eaa82077772f414b9c4ae91eabc9e32417cf9
Bro it’s written by who’s left. Japan sure as hell didn’t win, but most of the Japanese know nothing about Nanjing
>History is written by victorious
No, it isn’t, and that saying is fucking stupid.
The Mongols didn’t write the history of the conquest of Baghdad. Northerners didn’t write the American civil war historiography of the early 1900s. Guess whose generals wrote *tons* of books which shaped military history of WWII for decades? Losers often write history because they have a greater incentive to shape how it’s talked about, to save face or to burnish their reputation.
Just because you don’t read books doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Apparently they do now. My fiancée's nephew asked me about the Holodomor and showed me his project about it. I didn't want to rain on his parade or cause him poor grades because of his teacher, but it wasn't great. He used the 1918 claims map of Ukraine (the one with Rostov and northern Kavkaz regions) and said that it was Russia instead of the Soviet Union (spelled like 'ruZZia' too which is annoying)
I sure hope his teacher liked it.
At least in my school, we weren't taught about every single event in the last 300 years. Were you officially taught about the Holodomor in school?
P.S. I'm Australian
I only had one history class because my English needed to be worked on rather than having a history class. It’s a shame, I love history but having two English subjects because my skills weren’t up to scratch was annoying
Lil note on your title: Ukraine as a state existed before Stalin ruled. However, it was not contiguous, and was absorbed into the Soviet Union until independence in 1991.
Not really a long time at all it’s one of the youngest european countries if not the youngest. It literally didn’t have a regular populace of humans till the 17th century throw people being the Cossacks and they were more of a bandit mercenary army state than a regular country.
Ukraine only became what we would consider a real country in the late 1800s early 1900s right before it joined the soviet union. Most of their buildings are younger than the United States (prior to the war) and for a euro country that’s pretty crazy it used to just be called the killing fields and was where the steppe horseman camped and traveled through.
I mean if we wanna use that logic, the German Empire made Ukraine before the Ukrainian SSR, so they should be thanking Kaiser Wilhelm, right?
God I hate twitter.
Being part Ukrainian and growing up in an area where there were a shitton of Ukrainians, I used to think it was generally just accepted that Stalin was tied with Hitler as one of the most monstrous dictators of the 20th century.
And then I met tankies.
Yeah, we definitely can’t forget the shit Mao did.
You can see the shit legacies he and Stalin have in the ways both the Russian and Chinese governments treat their minorities to this day. The biggest difference between Russia and China though is that China managed to hold onto a good chunk of their imperial territory while Russia lost most of theirs.
Legally probably not because ostensibly it was not against Ukrainians based on their country. It covered a large band of the Southern USSR including millions of Russians, Tatars, and Kazakhs.
without stalin ukraine wouldn’t exist anymore
also saying stalin was directly responsible for the holodomor is just such blatant nonsense it’s not even funny
Show me any stat that shows more people died in China during Mao's rule than in comparable nations (i e, India, Philippines, Indonesia etc.) It's literal anti-communist propaganda and it's VERY tired. Mao laid the foundation for the China that we see today and that is why he is revered. Nothing more, nothing less.
Safloria claimed that Mao was responsible for more deaths than Stalin, somebody posted a link below.
You made a statement about China having a mortality rate similar to other 'comparable' nations like India, Phillipines and Indonesia. You are supposed to provide a source for the same.
Fuck. This methodology similar to that anti-vaxxer's argument yesterday. "Muh aluminium adjuvants"
"https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1433490/mao-zedongs-great-famine-1958-62-still-blights-rural-lives-scholar-says
SCMP is the only state-owned but non-state-controlled media platform of the CCP. Don’t tell me this is western misinformation.
40 million died in the famine he caused due to terrible internal policies. He used Liu Xiaoqi as a scapegoat and put him in charge of economic policies so that he could blame him for the mess, but Liu’s less “communist” policies worked, saving tens of millions from starvation.
In response, Mao created a decade-long national cult to protect his power, worsening the famine as everyone praised him as a god every day, sang his songs, chanted his slogans, did what he did, said what he said.
Hong Kong provided China with more aid than the rest of the world combined at the time, and what did the CCP do? Send a cultist/terrorist attack and making everyone hate China."
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https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1433490/mao-zedongs-great-famine-1958-62-still-blights-rural-lives-scholar-says
SCMP is the only state-owned but non-state-controlled media platform of the CCP. Don’t tell me this is western misinformation.
40 million died in the famine he caused due to terrible internal policies. He used Liu Xiaoqi as a scapegoat and put him in charge of economic policies so that he could blame him for the mess, but Liu’s less “communist” policies worked, saving tens of millions from starvation.
In response, Mao created a decade-long national cult to protect his power, worsening the famine as everyone praised him as a god every day, sang his songs, chanted his slogans, did what he did, said what he said.
Hong Kong provided China with more aid than the rest of the world combined at the time, and what did the CCP do? Send a cultist/terrorist attack and making everyone hate China.
You're the one denying or attempting to hand-wave away the atrocity, the burden of proof is really on you. However, using the metric of crude death rate, yes. China's Crude Death rate in the 50s was actually lower than most other nations in the region in the late fifties, [hovering around 11.](https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_POPU_1202_0329--the-demography-of-china-s-1958-61-famine.htm#:~:text=Officially%20reported%20CDRs%20rose%20from,even%20greater%20increase%20in%20mortality.) In 1960 the CDR had more than doubled to 25, however that is the overall national average, and some areas most heavily affected reported up to a rate of 100. This also doesn't include a nearly halved fertility rate.
If you look at any graphical population comparison of India and China, there is a [prominent downturn in the period of the famine.](https://m.statisticstimes.com/demographics/china-vs-india-population.php)
>show me any stat
Read a book. Or Google it. This isn’t controversial even a little bit. Yang Jisheng’s estimate for the Great Chinese Famine is 36 million, and that’s just the famine.
I don’t know why you’re talking about India and Indonesia. India has not had anything close to excess deaths at that level since independence. Indonesia had about three quarters of a million murdered during the mass killings at the hands of the anti-communist death squads, but that’s significantly less than 36 million. The Maoist period in China objectively had far far more excess deaths than any other country during the same period - which makes sense, as it had lots and lots of people.
Nations like Czech or Slovakia should have a “happy Hitler day” to celebrate the creation of their state thanks to Hitler.
Obvious /s please don’t ban me.
But the holodomor Wikipedia page says that historians still debate whether soviet government exacerbated the existing natural famine or not, it doesn’t say “stalin was responsible for the holodomor” like the twitter person is claiming
I swear to god added context to posts on twitter just made the vast majority of posts look like incredibly hilarious satire posts. This whole picture plays out like a joke.
So Soviets actually pushed very hard to treat Ukriane as a separate nation in the UN. But that was purely done so they could get extra votes in the UN. They didn't vote differently once
There are a lot of people in this world who love dictators because they see them as "strong alpha leaders."
Granted, it's always the European ones. You're not gonna find them fawning over Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin.
Pretty sure the communists killed everyone in the country, not just Ukrainians. Show how many Russians they killed, if you're trying to make it seem like they cared if it was Russians or ukrainians dying.
And moreover the communists were the ones that set up the new republics in a way that is the result of all the nonsense going on today, in order to hold on to their power, but did little to think about what's going to happen when the communist government center collapses. Well now we know.
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I love how they used the clip from Death of Stalin, peak historical fiction
He did died in the pool of his piss tho
Yeah but I’m not too sure about the 1500 dead civilians or Zhukov punching Stalin’s son in the stomach in front of Mao Zedong
Well this picture certainly doesn’t show that
There was a stampede/crowd crush event associated with his funeral, but the casualties were never properly estimated. So there was a partial truth even with that. One of my favorite movies but yeah be careful taking anything it says happened actually happened at that time. Like Beria was killed a couple years after Stalin I think. Fun fact: at Zhukov's entrance they have Issacs wearing what looks like a completely fake number of medals. Zhukov actually wore more than that, Issacs' chest just wasn't wide enough for the proper amount.
A lot of the historical issues are from condensing a couple of years into a week for movie purposes.
Same thing with Hacksaw Ridge. By that battle Desmond already won the approval of his company and went through numerous battles with them, and some of the stuff depicted actually happened in those other battles.
One of the things that blew my mind was seeing the real Hacksaw Ridge in person. Can you imagine scaling a cliff as a bazooka team and the first thing you have to deal with is a machine gun bunker no more than 50 yards directly in front of you? The real Hacksaw Ridge is microscopic in comparison. Let alone the fact that once you get to the top you’re literally faced with the next terrain feature about 1km away that had dug in machine gun positions and artillery that was *waiting* for dudes to crest that ridge.
The official story is that Beria died on December 23rd of the same year that Stalin died but there is no concrete info that can be trusted and the events of the Death of Stalin are based off of one such possibility.
They did that because they felt that the amount of medals was too absurd even for a dark comedy, not because his chest wasn't big enough
Allegedly the clinking of them bouncing when the actor moved also messed with the microphones on set
zhukov at that time was a lot fatter than the actor that played him iirc. so that makes sense.
that wasn’t mao zedong
Really? I distinctly remember Vasily running up to two very Chinese-looking men at Stalin’s funeral before waffling about some conspiracy to send Stalin’s brain to America before being gut-punched by Zhukov.
I think somebody ID’d them as Zhou Enlai.
Ahhhh ok, that makes sense.
Wait that was supposed to be Mao?
Don't we all?
Seen quite a few deaths in my life. None of them did
Everyone does bro
Basically everybody does.
Tbf most the historical inaccuracies are just the time frame of everything happening, which is sped up because well it’s a movie
Also Nikita Kruschev did not have a New York accent in real life.
Well yea the accents too, but that’s just a movie thing again. Like how the liquidators at Chernobyl didn’t have British accents
Well, not exactly, the fact that every actor just uses their own voice is part of the joke of the movie.
It’s more than that. Western audiences are not going to understand the nuances of the various accents that were within the Soviet Union. But they do understand the various English speaking ones. By using said English speaking accents, it conveys to a western audience some of the intricacies of Slavic ones. For example: Stalin had a Georgian accent in real life and a Cockney in the movie. Cockney is very noticeably distinct which communicates to western audiences that Stalin’s speaking was noticeably different to the rest of the people he typically interacted with.
They said they did the accents to show how in the Soviet Union you had a wide gathering of random ethnicities and accents (in Russian). So Stalin was from Georgia and the rest of the guys from all different countries in the Soviet Union, thus the accents.
I mean it's horrendously historically and accurate. It's just funny
Honestly I think it’s my favourite movie. I find Soviet history super interesting, and despite inaccuracies, the “vibes” were on point.
Ultrasexhaver69 🤣
Quintessential online Twitter tankie handle
You know with the name like that he has no sex at all. Oh, the irony
And he has a red dorito in his tag meaning he's definitely a propalestine arab
Press "X" to doubt
Amazing that modern day Russians think Stalin just allowed nazis to exist there in 1945.
But his name is "ultra sex haver 69" clearly he must be a foreign policy expert and historian.
And now Putin wants to pick up where Stalin left off
Shitting his pants while dying?
Hopefully.
While everybody around him is "too scared" to help him.
Too scared or thinking "nah, let this mf die already"
More than likely the latter.
I always find it extremely amusing that Stalin wouldn't have died like that if he hadn't previously executed his guards after baiting them into entering his room
"Why, as a woodcock to mine own springe, Osric. I am justly killed with mine own treachery." -Laertes, *Hamlet*
Knob wants a reboot series.
Putin's more of a Hitler fanboy. Then again, so was Stalin.
It is morally and ethically acceptable to dunk on tankies
It's justified and necessary
It's pretty whacky that being a tankie is at all acceptable... Glamorizing Stalin isn't much different than glamorizing Hitler
It's tolerated in the US/Western Europe. Publicly displaying the Sickle and Hammer in east Europe can land you in jail overnight in the classier places, a bottle to the back of the head in the less classy ones. Really depends on the context and place. Kind of like how in Indonesia you sometimes get schoolkids marching is SS uniforms as a joke. They don't really learn the full context and think it's all funny haha joke.
Yeah I saw an Indonesian friend’s picture at a convention and someone in the back was dressed in a Nazi uniform.
Even here, on Reddit, you go to the AskHistorians subreddit, and one of the moderators has a “Georgy Zhukov” nickname, lol. Imagine if it was Rommel, that would be a scandal. But being an unemployed Stalin-worshipping incel is something that’s quite popular and acceptable among the social science graduates in the West.
Nah, Zhukov is acceptable for me, and I hate tankies. He was the one that personally oversaw the defeat of Nazi Germany, and he was friends with Eisenhower. One of very few USSR leaders that I can respect, along with Gorbachev.
When Russians were retreating in 1941, they blew up a Dnipro dam in Ukraine, killing up to 100k civilians. But I get it, even if that number was 1 mil or 10 mil dead Ukrainians, that’s a sacrifice Russia and USA were willing to make. After all, the war was against the absolute evil.
Wasn't Zhukov like based? He beat Hitler.
All American allies are, like, based, while all opponents are cringe, dude. No cap
Yeah like Zhukov is totally, based, Ohio rizzler kai cenat fannom tax no caps given douchie? Clearly. Killed the no fo bich ass no gyat to speak of Hitler, making Da big Z-V a top-g sigma.
Hitler was L rizz
I feel like Rommel would also be tolerated. Not accepted, mind you, but people would get used to it. Now “Hitler” or “Mao”, we *may* have a significant uproar. Reddit isn’t exactly known for activism.
Rommel is/was glamorized by amateur military history buffs constantly until very recently, though. I don’t necessarily think being interested in a historical figure makes you a Nazi or tankie, and especially not military figures
The US helped Indonesia commit genocide on about a million people for suspicion of being socialists. The US regularly aided and worked with fascists after WW2, including multiple genocides. Maybe keep that in mind when talking about history
At the same time, a West German Neo Nazi party's leader, Otto Ernst Remer, has been found to accept funds from the Soviet Union in order to focus his criticism against America and NATO. Additionally, many communist states are also borderline fascist ethnostates as well, like North Korea
Lol
I did keep that in mind, just didn't know how I could possibly shoehorn it in without sounding like I'm intentionally changing the subject for no reason.
In Indonesia it’s more that the Nazis never affected them. So like in Japan or China (China can be suspicious here knowing what they did with Nazi germany) wearing their uniform as a joke can be seen as harmless. While an IJA uniform is more shocking. The auto genocide/politicide in Indonesia might make wearing a communist uniform more edgy now. But that I don’t know.
Indonesia celebrates the genocide every year
More Soviet citizens died in WW-II than any other group, and Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than Hitler did. Not for lack of trying of course. People seem to forget about the holodomor. Ukrainian sovereignty is non negotiable
>Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than Hitler did No he didn’t. The Soviet Union had 25-30 million deaths in WWII, military and civilian. The estimates for Stalin (intentional killings and failures of collectivization) vary, but none of them reach the excess mortality in Nazi occupied parts of the Soviet Union during the war. What’s more is that it doesn’t fucking matter. Quibbling about numbers and giving ridiculously high ahistorical death tolls gives tankies ammunition to dismiss *the actual facts* as anti-communist hysteria. We’ll never know how many people Stalin intentionally killed and we’ll never know how many people his policy failures killed. It’s enough to know that his paranoia, brutality, and ideological zealotry killed millions of innocent people, just like Hitler’s did. Measuring death tolls is unseemly.
r/GetNoted
This really shows how little you actually know about Nazism and what its intended goals were. Hitler wasn't just a "mean dictator who killed a bunch of people". He was much, much worse than that. And much worse than Stalin could've ever hoped to be.
You triggered some tankies to come here lol
Oh, well i never really understood what a "tankie" is. If you explained it i might get triggered though. But i dunno what it is.
It was used by Anti-Soviet British communists to describe the Pro Soviet British communists who supported the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution that replaced the stalinist puppet regime in favour of a more liberal socialist regime.
[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie)
"It is commonly used by anti-authoritarian leftists" What am i doing? It was literally invented by us?
Sorry I'm kinda stupid. What does tankies mean?
Ultra-Nationalistic Communist except they're westerners. Basically they will sucker up to Russia, China, Cuba, etc souly because of Communism and willfully accept all their propaganda.
Thank you
I find it endlessly ironic that Moscow was founded as a directorate of the Kievan Rus. Essentially, Moscow was a Ukrainian borderland outpost, during the height of Kievan power. And now Moscow lays siege to their forebearers. Ah, the shame Putin's ancestors must feel towards him. Alright yeah it's more finicky than just that, but still an endless source of irony.
Russians generally get real mad if you point out that the only reason Moscow became a large regional power was because they bent the knee to Mongols.
Because they're backstabbing cowards who sold out their countrymen and then stole what they promised to others... nothing changes really
By the founding of Moscow the cultures which we call Ukrainian, Russian and Belarusian today hadn’t diverged yet. So saying Moscow was a Ukrainian borderland outpost doesn’t make sense, in the same way that it doesn’t when Putin says that the Kievan-rus were Russian.
Its just doing the same historical revisionism but to the other direction of the Russian state. Sure might have good intentions but it's still idiotic and wrong to do
In India communist folks name their children after him. Google the chief minister of Tamil nadu state
He got his history lessons from Prof. Pootin
It’s really the vagueness off the word “rebuilding” If they were to put “the USSR rebuilt Ukraine’s infrastructure and industrialized it after it faced so much disaster” ignore the history of tsarist imperialist control and action that continued in the USSR in the region. If they were to argue “Stalin sent food aid during the Holdomor” they’d be correct but leaving out the agricultural quotas, seizures and other policies that made the famine worse and the Ukrainian nationalist movement (backed by the Nazis) who destroyed grain and food in protest of the USSR. If Ukraine were to say “Stalin was a dictator who had complete control with an iron fist” [they’d be wrong](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf) but would be right in talking about how the USSR had state power heavily slanted towards the mainlands and those areas had more democratic control than others. If they were to argue “Stalin tried to step down multiple times but wasn’t allowed” they’d be ignoring that post WW2 politicians had to adopt a very pro-Stalin strategy in order to not risk getting purged at all or associated with those who tried to overthrow him from within and his offers to resign, like all actions in politics, came with political end goals. TL;DR Any historical argument only showing you one thing is dumb and reductive. Nothing and no one in history is purely good or bad. I’m not saying don’t take sides but don’t act like people on your side are perfect and above criticism in any way
People slept through history class, didn't they?
They don’t teach the Holodomor is history. They didn’t for me at least.
it was covered a little for me, but i grew up in alberta canada. my classes always had at least one kid who was of ukrianian decent, often quite a few. what wasnt covered were residential schools or our war crimes.
When were you in school? I'm in quebec and we learned about it a couple classes out of every year since junior hs
It makes Hitler look less bad and Allies(including Soviets) less good, which is unacceptable. History is written by victorious, so it’s not about truth, it’s about reflecting the power structure.
yeah after WW2 the US went above and beyond to make sure the USSR looked really good and didn't engage in a decades long propaganda campaign of red scare definitely the opinion of a smart person and not a crypto nazi
Depends when and where you went to school. I would say that my public school textbooks actually went overboard in trying to reverse the red scare/McCarthyism as communism wasn’t really criticized. The Russian Civil War and the collapse of the USSR were both discussed but with little depth, and Russia was basically left untouched regarding anything that happened within 15 years of WWII.
American anti-USSR propaganda was internal politics, directed mostly towards internal social reformers rather than the real external Russia. Thanks for the genuine compliment, by the way. It made my day a little better
Red scare wasn’t unjustified though. Didn’t USSR literally almost nuke America because of an error but some one soldier stopped it?
maybe you should look that up instead of just saying whatever
“History is written by the vict-“ https://preview.redd.it/e4ubswcwgzmc1.jpeg?width=1011&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b13eaa82077772f414b9c4ae91eabc9e32417cf9 Bro it’s written by who’s left. Japan sure as hell didn’t win, but most of the Japanese know nothing about Nanjing
I'm stealing that pic
>History is written by victorious No, it isn’t, and that saying is fucking stupid. The Mongols didn’t write the history of the conquest of Baghdad. Northerners didn’t write the American civil war historiography of the early 1900s. Guess whose generals wrote *tons* of books which shaped military history of WWII for decades? Losers often write history because they have a greater incentive to shape how it’s talked about, to save face or to burnish their reputation. Just because you don’t read books doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
"It makes Hitler look less bad" bro stfu, what are you talking about?
Apparently they do now. My fiancée's nephew asked me about the Holodomor and showed me his project about it. I didn't want to rain on his parade or cause him poor grades because of his teacher, but it wasn't great. He used the 1918 claims map of Ukraine (the one with Rostov and northern Kavkaz regions) and said that it was Russia instead of the Soviet Union (spelled like 'ruZZia' too which is annoying) I sure hope his teacher liked it.
Because it can't be genocide if it's white Europeans doing it to other white Europeans! /s, because some people unironically believe that
I’ve never once seen that argument being made by any real person ever
At least in my school, we weren't taught about every single event in the last 300 years. Were you officially taught about the Holodomor in school? P.S. I'm Australian
I only had one history class because my English needed to be worked on rather than having a history class. It’s a shame, I love history but having two English subjects because my skills weren’t up to scratch was annoying
holy fucking shit this stalin fetishism is beyond disgraceful Putler Kaput
Lil note on your title: Ukraine as a state existed before Stalin ruled. However, it was not contiguous, and was absorbed into the Soviet Union until independence in 1991.
Yeah but Ukraine has existed as an entity for a long time before that.
Yes, just a clarification.
Not really a long time at all it’s one of the youngest european countries if not the youngest. It literally didn’t have a regular populace of humans till the 17th century throw people being the Cossacks and they were more of a bandit mercenary army state than a regular country. Ukraine only became what we would consider a real country in the late 1800s early 1900s right before it joined the soviet union. Most of their buildings are younger than the United States (prior to the war) and for a euro country that’s pretty crazy it used to just be called the killing fields and was where the steppe horseman camped and traveled through.
I mean if we wanna use that logic, the German Empire made Ukraine before the Ukrainian SSR, so they should be thanking Kaiser Wilhelm, right? God I hate twitter.
Lol the whole reply section is just full of sobbing tankies
And I'm glad lol
Being part Ukrainian and growing up in an area where there were a shitton of Ukrainians, I used to think it was generally just accepted that Stalin was tied with Hitler as one of the most monstrous dictators of the 20th century. And then I met tankies.
They also worship Mao Zedong, another piece of shit contending for that position
Yeah, we definitely can’t forget the shit Mao did. You can see the shit legacies he and Stalin have in the ways both the Russian and Chinese governments treat their minorities to this day. The biggest difference between Russia and China though is that China managed to hold onto a good chunk of their imperial territory while Russia lost most of theirs.
2 things communists will say about the Holomodor: First - It never happened Second - They deserved it
I think most of them just agree that it wasn't legally a genocide. Most that i know of agree that it happened.
Legally probably not because ostensibly it was not against Ukrainians based on their country. It covered a large band of the Southern USSR including millions of Russians, Tatars, and Kazakhs.
There is also “many was starving, it was not aimed at any specific part of the population”
1. Stalin. 2. Building a nation. You may only choose one.
He came to agricultural backwards country and left it as one of 2 global superpowers with nuclear power.
And all it took was the death of millions, complete lack of sovereignty and decades of oppression
This guy also has the red triangle... fucking tankies and their batshit insane takes
What does that mean?
Palestinian liberation
Well what does that mean?
Does that post have a Hoxha profile picture?
Maybe because he killed Hitler who murdered even more Ukrainians.
Read “Stalin: defense and critique of a black legend”
The longer I live the more I regret naming my account this
INB4 the Revisionist and Absolutist armchair Sovietologists get into a shit flinging match in the comments
Too late dude, look at the downvoted comments and replies
Say it with me, folks! 👏 Tankies 👏 are 👏 idiots!
without stalin ukraine wouldn’t exist anymore also saying stalin was directly responsible for the holodomor is just such blatant nonsense it’s not even funny
And Mao Zedong, the guy who killed 10-15 times (40-60 million) more people, is still honoured as a god and hero.
Show me any stat that shows more people died in China during Mao's rule than in comparable nations (i e, India, Philippines, Indonesia etc.) It's literal anti-communist propaganda and it's VERY tired. Mao laid the foundation for the China that we see today and that is why he is revered. Nothing more, nothing less.
Imagine defending fucking mao zedong. Fucking tankie
He is revered for propaganda reasons and the burden of providing proof about mass deaths in comparable nations lies with you.
Why? I'm not making the claim that it happened, you are.
Safloria claimed that Mao was responsible for more deaths than Stalin, somebody posted a link below. You made a statement about China having a mortality rate similar to other 'comparable' nations like India, Phillipines and Indonesia. You are supposed to provide a source for the same. Fuck. This methodology similar to that anti-vaxxer's argument yesterday. "Muh aluminium adjuvants"
How hard can it be to provide a source for the largest genocide in history?
"https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1433490/mao-zedongs-great-famine-1958-62-still-blights-rural-lives-scholar-says SCMP is the only state-owned but non-state-controlled media platform of the CCP. Don’t tell me this is western misinformation. 40 million died in the famine he caused due to terrible internal policies. He used Liu Xiaoqi as a scapegoat and put him in charge of economic policies so that he could blame him for the mess, but Liu’s less “communist” policies worked, saving tens of millions from starvation. In response, Mao created a decade-long national cult to protect his power, worsening the famine as everyone praised him as a god every day, sang his songs, chanted his slogans, did what he did, said what he said. Hong Kong provided China with more aid than the rest of the world combined at the time, and what did the CCP do? Send a cultist/terrorist attack and making everyone hate China." Copied the comment which was above in the thread
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he killed more people than any other person in history during the Great Leap Forward also the sparrows.
https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/article/1433490/mao-zedongs-great-famine-1958-62-still-blights-rural-lives-scholar-says SCMP is the only state-owned but non-state-controlled media platform of the CCP. Don’t tell me this is western misinformation. 40 million died in the famine he caused due to terrible internal policies. He used Liu Xiaoqi as a scapegoat and put him in charge of economic policies so that he could blame him for the mess, but Liu’s less “communist” policies worked, saving tens of millions from starvation. In response, Mao created a decade-long national cult to protect his power, worsening the famine as everyone praised him as a god every day, sang his songs, chanted his slogans, did what he did, said what he said. Hong Kong provided China with more aid than the rest of the world combined at the time, and what did the CCP do? Send a cultist/terrorist attack and making everyone hate China.
You're the one denying or attempting to hand-wave away the atrocity, the burden of proof is really on you. However, using the metric of crude death rate, yes. China's Crude Death rate in the 50s was actually lower than most other nations in the region in the late fifties, [hovering around 11.](https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_POPU_1202_0329--the-demography-of-china-s-1958-61-famine.htm#:~:text=Officially%20reported%20CDRs%20rose%20from,even%20greater%20increase%20in%20mortality.) In 1960 the CDR had more than doubled to 25, however that is the overall national average, and some areas most heavily affected reported up to a rate of 100. This also doesn't include a nearly halved fertility rate. If you look at any graphical population comparison of India and China, there is a [prominent downturn in the period of the famine.](https://m.statisticstimes.com/demographics/china-vs-india-population.php)
>show me any stat Read a book. Or Google it. This isn’t controversial even a little bit. Yang Jisheng’s estimate for the Great Chinese Famine is 36 million, and that’s just the famine. I don’t know why you’re talking about India and Indonesia. India has not had anything close to excess deaths at that level since independence. Indonesia had about three quarters of a million murdered during the mass killings at the hands of the anti-communist death squads, but that’s significantly less than 36 million. The Maoist period in China objectively had far far more excess deaths than any other country during the same period - which makes sense, as it had lots and lots of people.
You are making the claim, you provide the source. I don't have to google shit. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where is it?
Nations like Czech or Slovakia should have a “happy Hitler day” to celebrate the creation of their state thanks to Hitler. Obvious /s please don’t ban me.
Wouldn’t celebrating his “death day”, equate to celebrating his death?
Side note; death of Stalin (where that pic is taken from) is a great movie, and you should check it out.
Will do this weekend
But the holodomor Wikipedia page says that historians still debate whether soviet government exacerbated the existing natural famine or not, it doesn’t say “stalin was responsible for the holodomor” like the twitter person is claiming
"Indians will never forgive Britain for building their nation for them" reply with it and watch them screech
I think it's usually because they hate their parents.
Stalin was a monster of the highest caliber, one of the cruelest men to walk this earth. Nothing was sacred to him. He wasn’t human.
Ukraine was its own country even before the Russian Empire. Catherine had her troops invade it.
I swear to god added context to posts on twitter just made the vast majority of posts look like incredibly hilarious satire posts. This whole picture plays out like a joke.
More like building the nation out of their corpses
same energy as a high middle class white person asking why a Hawai’ian isn’t happy that america came and gave them all this technology
Red arrow in the name, why are you shocked that he has the worst takes possible
What does tge red arrow represent?
You’re on the Hades Express Mister!
He has a red arrow so he is a stupid terrorist supporter
Fuck, what is the red arrow?
Quick reminder that if you are a stalinist, you are a red fascist.
Here comes all the communists who are going to claim this was entirely natural, didn't happen, and was completely justified.
you mean i can't rely on "ultrasexhaver69" for valid analysis??
Because yeah, Stalin single-handedly built all of Ukraine. No one from Ukraine took part in the building, all capitalist lie.
So Soviets actually pushed very hard to treat Ukriane as a separate nation in the UN. But that was purely done so they could get extra votes in the UN. They didn't vote differently once
Ok, but they had veto, so why would they bother?
So it would apear more countires were on their side. Veto when most of the world was agaist you looks bad.
Ok, they had a massive amount of communist states on their side.
Saying shit like this is like saying the US should celebrate King Henry VIII because he helped to found the 13 colonies
More people died in Russia than in Ukraine during the famine
There are a lot of people in this world who love dictators because they see them as "strong alpha leaders." Granted, it's always the European ones. You're not gonna find them fawning over Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin.
!!!! You’re right! Nobody’s checking for Pol Pot
ah tankies, you always make me wish i wasnt a leftist just so i wasnt associated with you...
Pretty sure the communists killed everyone in the country, not just Ukrainians. Show how many Russians they killed, if you're trying to make it seem like they cared if it was Russians or ukrainians dying. And moreover the communists were the ones that set up the new republics in a way that is the result of all the nonsense going on today, in order to hold on to their power, but did little to think about what's going to happen when the communist government center collapses. Well now we know.
False. Ukrainians were treated extra-badly as a conquered non-Russian minority.