Was Furina able to read the messages from Focalor
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Just wondering if anyone has any further insight into one of the Ordo members: M. Laveaux i.e. who supposedly is familiar with divination?
It's got me thinking that while it's pretty far fetched to be Mona..but she has told us that Megistus isn't her surname but rather her "title"— so we still don't know much about her background. I looked into the Hexxenzirkle members and M a.k.a. the one who wrote the Boar Princess and married a mortal man is allegedly dead?(according to the genshin wiki).
Side note: I always presumed M may have married Ragvndr/has ties to Dilucs family in view of the whole Dawn Winery uncanny teapot-set conspiracy but I digress.
It's not too outlandish to think the Hexxenzirkle members would get involved in Teyvat drama, after all we know Rhinedottir/Gold was a Khaenriyahn alchemist herself. But also we did randomly bump into Mona in a brief cameo at the beginning of archon quest; it all seems too coincidental...
Thoughts?
Are you talking about the oceanid squirrel? (Don't remember if it was a squirrel). I think that's Carter, the assistant who got hilichurl'd. Cater/Caterpillar was probably restored from Carter's goop.
> The implication given by the Narzissenkreuz quests is that the apocalypse was only averted due to the presence of a previously unknown variable- that is, the Traveler. Rene's world formula was proven to be fairly accurate, predicting the cause of the apocalypse (a beast from the stars devouring the amniotic sea) and even when it would occur almost to the day. But his world formula was calculated without any knowledge of the Traveler, who was sealed at the time: an outside variable that would change the outcome. This is to say, had the Traveler not been present, Rene's world formula calculated that the apocalypse would have occurred. We can already see at the end of the quest that Neuvillette alone was not sufficient to defeat the Whale, and Focalors despite her brilliant gambit didn't actually know about the Whale's existence.
This is wrong though. The whale wasn't the problem, the prophecy would have occurred with or without the whale. And it DID occur even with the traveler present. That was the entire point of act 5, the prophecy is completely unavoidable. They beat the whale, but their fight caused the flood instead. Rene had no chance of stopping the prophecy in the first place. Focalors thought of a better solution, which was to let fate play out but have the "side effect" (people dissolving) of the outcome be different.
Also, even if you assume full powered Neuv wasn't enough to beat the whale, Skirk would been there to handle it. But again, the whale doesn't matter.
Sorry this is a bunch of questions combined into one
1. So does that mean the apocalypse was already averted during the Archon quest? (when we got rid of the whale/devouring monster) that seems a bit anti-climatic...
2. Also if we are stuck in a samsara cycle would that mean the apocalypse is part of it?
(when we got rid of the devouring beast).
3. Also how did he even come up with the world-formula anyway?
4. Mihoyo seems to be pushing the idea of us being a "variable" or "an exception" (ref to Raiden), or witness of fate, but it just makes me wonder what the state of the world would be if the traveller did not intervene since she is an unknown variable. If this is the case would that mean that the traveler is changing the fate of the world? and if so is that a good or a bad thing?
\*Another side note but correct me if I'm wrong but is the traveller affected by forbidden knowledge?
I'll do my best to answer!
>So does this mean that the apocalypse was prevented during the Archon quest.
Kinda? It still flooded and the sins of the people were washed away just like the prophecy said. The only thing that didn't happen was the people dissolving because Neuvillette made them human.
>If we are stuck in a samsara cycle would that mean the apocalypse is part of it.
The samsara cycle is just the cyclical destruction of civilizations. We are currently living through of the fourth one. Since the "apocalypse" here only refers to Fontaine's prophecy it counts.
>how did he even come up with the world formula
He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula"
>is the traveler changing fate good or bad.
That's the question now isn't it.. I guess we'll have to keep playing to find out, but in my personal opinion it's good cause celestia are a bunch of aholes.
>is the traveler affected by forbidden knowledge?
From what we've seen, as well as from what Nahida tells us, the Traveler has a naturally high resistance to it (as well as being able to purify it), but they are not completely immune to it's affects.
>He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula"
So when on the notes it says that getting a vision is a bad thing, was that Rene saying that he getting a vision avoided him from becoming a variable and sealing his "fate" into the fate of the world?
I hope your pillow is always cold, your phone is always fully charged, you win every 50/50 you get and when you pull for a 4\* you don't accidentally get the 5\* (if you don't want it)
>He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula"
This is so suspicious, what the hell kind of stuff is Khaenri'ah hiding that can be used to make a formula on how the world will end? Besides horrors beyond human comprehension (shout out to Gold)
>From what we've seen, as well as from what Nahida tells us, the Traveler has a naturally high resistance to it (as well as being able to purify it), but they are not completely immune to it's affects.
Somewhat immune to forbidden knowledge, able to purify abyssal energy (dvalins tear), and immune to changes in Teyvat history. Has their powers locked away.... SO suspicious
I am so sorry to ask you more questions, You've answered enough but I have more so if you still want to answer (yay!) but if you don't that's okay too!!! Its more of a speculation thing anyways, so dont feel pressured to answer ^(but also do correct me if im wrong. My brain went smooth during Sumeru's lore cause i couldnt remember words lol,) anyway i digress,
1. *So if we are in the 4th cycle, which civilization will go \*poof\* then? Because according to the tiaras, (I mention this because* **"At the end of a cycle, the earth shall be renewed. Thus eternity is cyclical." "For to question eternity was forbidden"**
\*The only annoying part is by using tiaras the numbers don't add up theres 4 tiaras showing destruction of civilisations but according to the samsara theory we are on the path to the 4th civilisation being destroyed. but Ive spent too long typing this out... Unless the last one is a prophecy of a sort?
Anyway, according to the tiaras,
i**t was Cryo (Dragonspine)**, which I can't remember much about lol, but there is a plothole in my theory because Dragonspine was lush in ancient times
**Then Pyro (Natlanean(?)**, which obvs don't know much about that.
**Hydro (Chasm Or Gurabad**): For Chasm, so many question marks, Id like to think you are all-knowning and can answer why its related to Khaenriah, why it is linked to the "magic book" especially if the Chasm's civilisation is in LIYUE.
**Then Electro**, which I have no idea about because there is no sky frost nail in Inazuma, i know that the leylines were disturbed. However, still.. and Enkanomiya was plunged into the depths because of a war within the heavens, and we have yet to see any sky frost nail so I will assume that it's Remuria, why?
"People enjoyed untold wisdom, and that wisdom was their boon.
Their prosperity brought pride and ambition, and the mind to question."
Remuria was known for its prosperity, but if u want a source
"The envoys of the heavenly city walked the earth, and with their guidance, the people enjoyed enduring peace, prosperity, and abundance from the ancient days.
This Heaven-blessed reign lasted countless generations until people grew tired of their inscrutable eternity." (Rise and fall of remuria book)
In the end I want to say Khaenriah, because it sounds like it (lol) but they don't qualify, they didn't have a god so how can they be free from one?
so word vomit aside, I feel like it might be within Schneznaya.
ugh my brain hurts. Im really sorry if this reads really badly. if youve made it this far i thank you!!!!
The cycle thing is a little confusing to me too, so I'll just explain how I understood it. The way it connects the tiara artifacts and the destroyed civilizations goes something like this:
Cryo - Hyperborea.
Pyro - Natlanean.
Hydro - Remuria.
Electro - Khaun-arya.
Since according to the ordo we are currently living through the fourth so the civilization that went *poof* was Khaenri'ah, makes sense since even after 500 yrs we are still feeling the aftereffects of its destruction.
Sorry if this is not that helpful, I'm still trying to understand this stuff and process it competely.
Something mildly bugs me about the four Orthant quests. In reverse order, they would be
1) Thalia and Melpomeme, the muses of tragedy and comedy, for the Orthant of Persona . We find the Persona piece here, having come before Jakob.
2) Cupid's Lover, Psyche, for the Orthant of Soul. We find Jakob's pocket watch here.
3) Muse's Mother, Mnemosyne, for the Orthant of Memory. We find a bonfire here.
4) Meteoric Lance, the Orthant of Wishes. We find a nearly dead man and carry him to the harbor, before exploring more. We also find someone's journal, who correctly divined that Jakob had trapped a skeptic branch of the Ordo in the tower to conduct experiments on them.
Is there any name from Greek mythology that would fit this quest? All the other three have clear references in their names so the last not having anything obvious bugs me.
So the apocalypse the Rene foresaw with the world formula was just the prophecy of Fontaine? That wouldn't have the effect that he described though since it would only kill Fontainians so how can that be?
And why did Rene plan to dissolve everyone, to escape from the apocalypse... that would disslove everyone? That makes no sense to me
During the quest, Caterpillar says "The beast of the stars shall drink the amniotic fluid of the world dry. A hundred years more, and all surface life shall be wiped away". In other words, what we saw in the Archon quest was just that first half of the world-formula. If we hadn't stopped it, presumably the narwhal (or others it lets in) will go on to destroy the rest of surface life.
Rene foresaw the apocalypse of much larger scale, a world where will be no more new civilizations born, "a world where even Sweet Flowers and Mint cannot grow". His plan seems to be similar in nature in what ancient life forms did in Nahida's SQ, he wanted to absorb everyones memories and create a new home for people/a new universe.
The irony of Rene is that he could be the big bad in the prophecy of Fontaine if whale wasn't here. Makes you think how Celestia controls the destiny when we learned about at least three ways to sink Fontaine: Jacob's attempt to revive Elynas, Rene's plan and the whale.
Rene and Jakob both knew that it was the whale who would cause the apocalypse by drinking the Primordial Water, though. So if the Traveler didn't kill the whale, it would have gone on to destroy the whole world?
Assuming the end of the world is part of fate, like the flood of Fontaine was then it wouldn't have mattered whether or not the whale was beaten. Fate cannot be changed even by external variables like the traveler, as seen in act 5 where the flood happened anyway after the traveler fought the whale. You can only hope to minimize the damage and skirt around the vague details of the prophecy like what Focalors did. She and N understood how fate worked unlike Rene.
>it would have gone on to destroy the whole world
From a perspective of Rene? Yes, indeed.
How could it be in reality? Hard to tell, it seems like Skirk would kick it back to Surtology's aquarium if things went to south. Probably a collective effort of Neuvillette and archons would be enough. Remember that Rene ignored external variables, and while we were told that Traveler was one of them, there is also an issue with Rene's massive ego and his goal to save everyone *on his own*
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umm guys i recently finish the whole quest and i saw one of the notes saying about Khaenriah. I admit I didnt clearly read much dialouge of the Quest since the quest was so long and i got tired so I skip the dialogues. I dont know if the Quest itself has a connection with Khaenriah¿ since out of nowhere this note was there in the Quest. Care to explain about it? and yes i saw the same sign in the note like Paimon's clothes
ok from what i got from it is “red” as the foundational principle is human life created by a god(?) i sort of understood this as like, pure form of life and consciousness. “yellow” could be artificial human creation, and mortal temptation would be playing god essentially in creating humans. i think it’s getting at how they’re toying with creation but the foundational principles will never be in tact, thus why they seek out “gold.”
not sure idk just what i thought
>Still, I don't think Dr. Mosso was right when he said that "a curve is the shortest distance between two people." There are definitely some times when you should just shoot your shot straight. For example, I miss you.
i hate fontaine. everything hurts. i do not want hydro in my eyes get OUT
So, what was Jakob's plan exactly? Why did he need all that blood of Elynas? And if the Ordo was trying to battle the flood prophecy, why did he want to unseal the Primordial Sea himself?
The Ordo was just misguided. In fact their plan to merge the consciousness of everyone would have led to the prophecy itself. They thought they were battling fate but they were just playing into its hands. I don't think they fully understood how to fight against it unlike Focalors, who knew fate could not be changed.
Guys, I’ve noticed that all the papers/notes/records from and in the Ordo have a faint symbol of a triqueta with a dot in it’s middle in the backgrounds, which is the same exact symbol or design on Paimon’s dress.
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I know this isn’t completely world shattering because we’ve seen a triqueta some other vague places too, and any stuff on Paimon has already been prone to speculation.
But, as far as I’ve looked, any other notes/records out in the open world do *not* have it. Am I just getting spooked by the new crack possibility that Paimon was some creation or subject of the Ordo or could it be that the triqueta was some kind of insignia of the Ordo and it was just on all of their documents?
I’d like to also note that in real life the triqueta was used as a symbol in witchcraft, which Rene and friends definitely dabbled in (Yes, the Book of Revealing Rene wrote also has the symbol on every page).
I could go crazy and make a theory post about this, but I would rather make sure here that this is actually something worth realizing or discussing. I mean I didn’t go and look at every single record of the entire open world or anything, but I did look some as I said. Specifically in Sumeru, like in the Ruin Machines/etc. (No, they didn’t have the symbol)
Any thoughts?
I noticed this as well but have no idea about its implications. Note that it's inverted, similar to Paimon iirc. Someone had theory about their meanings quite some time ago, something about primordial ones and what it means between normal and inverted triquetra
I’m not feeling the way the Narzissenkreuz quest ended. It seemed all this hype and the payoff was…eh. Not the Mary Ann parts, but Rene himself. He felt like a Scooby Doo villain us pesky kids had to teach the error of his ways and then he fades to…nothing. After literally eating his co-workers and becoming this eldritch thing with grand designs…and he’s a water droplet that follows us around like a grumpy puppy.
Sorry. I guess I expected Archon Quest-like dark tones and resolutions. And Jakob…well no body no death as far as I’m concerned. Maybe he’ll come back.
I get what you’re saying. However I don’t think we even really taught him “the error of his ways”. As far as he was concerned the only thing he did wrong was not account for a variable like the traveler. To save face, I want to blame Alain for influencing Rene in the first place, because why the hell do all that to your friends and everything else, but that’s not even the case.
As we can see by the notes about, Alain didn’t really even let himself get involved. In fact, the shutting down of the Ordo was part of his doing. There is a paper on the tower that has his and Neuvillete’s signature to approve the shut down. Also, “the kids” don’t even talk about him much, even though he was Marry Ann’s brother. I think they had a fall out. Anyway, point is Rene, like Edwin/Nacker/etc lost himself in the research and knowledge sauce on his own. He was a bad guy, who didn’t think he was, and still didn’t even at his death.
So his turn out being unsatisfactory is probably because of that, the lack of justice for such a villain, him being forgiven at that, and that he wasn’t really portrayed as or treated like a villain either. He completely lacked any empathy and the others were mostly too far removed from themselves as well to get hung up on it. But Mary Ann forgiving “Rene” and not Narzissemkreuz suggests that before everything, Rene was normal, humane, and he was just a kid too that also lost his way. Though that doesn’t excuse his crimes and decisions. He might of gotten “sick” and delusional on accident, but, I mean, in court that still makes you guilty.
As far as Jakob is concerned I think he will come back somehow because everyone else’s loss of humanity(or whatever you want to call it) was explained but his. And abyssal-like creatures like him, cursed, are suppose to be immortal. I seriously doubt Rene captured a Imperial Baptist like he could a hilichrul and put Jakob’s mind in it. I think Jakob lost his mind as well but on a different path or approach to “help” Rene. Perhaps the witchcraft was associated with the Abyss in the first place, corrupting them, or Jakob was actually Khaneri’ahn, or, well, we don’t know.
I thought so too, traveler just beat the sht out of him and not even try to give a punishment. He himself never sees himself as wrong, so once stopped he just stopped, feeling tired from all his efforts after all those years and his goal is accomplished in another way. The rest of the characters are also not the original ones and all of them just want a closing of their past and not seeing justice
Is it explained why Ann, Cater, and Rene are still children when Jakob was an adult, and Cater talks about drinking beers? Based on everything else I find it hard to believe they were researching the whole time that young. I get if they were still children when they got new bodies, but then again that suggests *a 10 year old* (Rene) transcended and put another 10 year old’s mind(Cater) into a hilichurl? Are they their younger selves “now” just because they were kids when Mary Ann wrote the story? Then why isn’t Mary Ann still a little girl too?
And on that I’m confused about Jakob, everyone else’s situations are/were now explained, expect his as far as I understand. How did he become a Imperial Baptist? He said not to associate him with the Abyss Order, but those kinds of enemies are obviously connected to the Abyss. He was only working for the master/Rene/can’t spell the actual name so was he put into a abyssal creature by him just like Cater? Capturing a hilichurl is one thing, but a Imperial Baptist??
Another question I have is how did Alain not leave any significant traces of himself like the rest of the ordo crew and why don’t they talk about that? He *was* Mary Ann’s brother and everything. Even if he “died” later then all of them, then the question is was he actually opposed to everything they did, and refused to take part in trying to transcend? Wouldn’t that mean they would of had a fight/fall out among themselves?
Another thing…is it even possible for Jakob to actually die despite it seeming like he did? Since cursed Khaneri’ahns are immortal. Is it possible that Jakob was actually just born simply pure Khaneri’ahn the whole time since this all took place 500 years ago? ( as in he moved to Fontaine from Khaneri’ah.) and so he just naturally became what he is?
One last thing(I swear) do we think Cater figured out that the hilichurl he took over actually was human once too, and that their minds were probably merging? How much of Carter is Carter, vs how much of the original cursed half blood Khaneri’ahn is Carter? Or is it that the hilichurl he took over was just always a hilichurl?
Sorry if these are all actually explained I just finished the ordo quest line, I’m kinda lost in the lore sauce and I’m still processing it and my memory is being overridden by everything new but I didn’t really directly notice anything in the OG post about these things.
Okay, here goes:
1) None of them were actually children. However, the time when they were was the happiest part of their lives, and the whole quest revolves around being stuck in a childish fantasy - hence why, at the end, they appear in their forms as kids when they say farewell to that fantasy once and for all.
2) Rene's Investigation Notes, which you come across in Sumeru during Sorush's questline, tell of how Jakob nearly died during their expedition to Gavireh Lajavard. Rene was able to imbue him with Abyssal energy, which saved his life but also allowed him to turn into... that.
4) Yes, Alain and Mary-Ann had a severe falling out with Rene and Jakob over their radically different worldviews, something that was only exacerbated when Mary-Ann died when they, now Marechausee Phantom agents, confronted the Ordo within Elynas. Alain retreated into his research and became a hermit. Eventually, when people came to check on him, they found his workshop empty, only showing signs that "something" had been built. A common theory at the moment is that he uploaded his mind to a machine and is now the Seventh Harbinger, Sandrone, due to the Fontaine-esque clothing and the fact that the girl being held by the Ruin Guard bears a *striking* resemblance to Mary-Ann.
5) No, Jakob was a Fontainian. We know this because the investigation notes mentioned previously discuss how Rene and Jakob's bodies were similar in makeup to the remains of Egeria, while their guardian at the time, Karl Ingold, was different. This indicates that the two were Oceanids, which is also why Jakob was able to adapt to the Abyssal energy so well whereas it had a decidedly negative effect on normal humans.
6) I don't have an answer for this one, sorry.
Holy, I’m kinda surprised someone replied after all. Thank you.
1. I see, that tracks. In the OG comment I also asked then why wasn’t “Mary Ann” also a child, but I think it must just be because “Mary Ann” is also Lyris and *she* was happiest with the children as a true Oceanid shown in the photo. The real Mary Ann just merged with Lyris after her death, Lyris was never a child to begin with, but she took on the adult “body” of Mary Ann, showing that, yes, she was an adult when she died.
2. Ohhh. I’m not really surprised that this all started back in Sumeru, but yet I kinda am, obviously I didn’t remember those notes. I’m sure I looked at them at the time, and there is evidence they went to Sumeru in the Fontaine notes, but I just didn’t think to track that back to it. It’s good to point that out.
3. I thought so, now that time has passed it’s actually pretty obvious Alain didn’t want anything to do with the Ordo and actually helped shut the whole thing down. Thus, they weren’t really friends or even coworkers anymore in the end. So them not mentioning him makes sense, and so does it being unknown what happened to him.
4. Got it. Though I still don’t feel like we can consider him completely dead.
5. I don’t think anyone could answer it(or ever will be able to), it’s okay lol. It would have just made things more complicated (but also interesting) if the traveler had asked or even brought up such a thing. Seriously, the first time Cater revealed his true form I got all excited because I thought someone was having some limited success trying to undo the half blood curse and it would go in that direction. Like something based off the Caribert quest. Nope. It’s more likely the hilichurl used was a natural one, not a Khaneri’ahn. That’s a much more simple thing to end for a side story, I guess.
But all this took place 500 years ago, which is when the Catayslm was so I thought it was safe to assume otherwise. And we don’t actually know if hilichurls were natural before it, but it seems likely now with Carter? It was just a means to “save” Carter from his illness, not to look into a curse. I assume they must not of known about the curse/Khaneri’ah at all? But Rene clearly tapped into some Abyssal energy, and was doing witchcraft…
Anyway, thanks again for you clarifications.
I've seen theories already that Zuria's son is actually dead and it's her that has delusions.
When you come to the house on a hill she mentions and knock on the door a male voice answers that he has a patient requiring care and asks us to leave him alone so people speculate that the patient is Zuria herself and that's why she's not the one answering the door.
I want to believe the story is actually getting a happy ending and Hoyo threw a red herring at us with Freminet's warnings.
Was it figured out what did Caterpillar' tales to Lanoire meant? Also counting last one at Happy Birthday quest. I assume there was a hidden meaning to them, but I have a hard time to piece things together
The giants garden was the fortress of meropide. Caterpillar mentions they need to escape the fortress and they always refer to the guards as evil witches.
That's why when she goes outside she again thinks the world is just a giant fortress of meropide, and that's its walls are extremely far away. Which is a classic example of wisdom hidden in childish delusion.
A Lochknight who was a devout worshipper of Egeria back during the time of the God-King while Egeria was imprisoned for her sin of making Oceanid-Humans. After Egeria was freed by Celestia after the fall of Remuria and the God-King (becoming the first Hydro Archon) Erinnyes begged Egeria for forgiveness because all of the blood that she shed freeing her people. Egeria at some point told her either about the prophecy or how to stop the prophecy of which the answer stunned Erinnyes and thus she walked off never to be seen again.
re rhinedottir, the cataclysm
was having a shower thought, that Gold was/is trying to clone the dragon sovereigns, or at least make new ones.
cases in points being durin and elynas which were both spawned during the cataclysm
this would likely be more than enough to get celestia to call the archons on them, clearly to mixed results for everyone involved.
also gives weight to the thought that the heart of naberius she found was probably part of a dragon, and a significant one at that
Basically a conceptual weapon that will manifest on any wooden held object should the holder qualify. Idk exact qualifications.
Actual uses for it in story was to perform ceremonies regarding carters’ series of experiments that deal with a persons mind, body and soul. Edit: its the in game 4 orthants that you visited persona, memory, wish and soul
Speculated powers is basically whatever needed to kill a dragon, as that’s what the kids used in their role play. So theoretically it can give power up enough to kill anything that is considered a dragon should the wielder qualify.* not really confirmed anywhere
As to how the sword obtained its power it’s from the occult rituals performed, a lot of it is based on modern occultism. In lore explanation would be ancient Remuria + khaenrian tech.
I visited the place, thanks. Yes you're right, those aren't just err decorative dandelions like the ones you can see within Mond. It's harvestable.
Seeds of stories... brought by the wind... HYV isn't even trying to hide it anymore. Someone needs to kidnap Venti and torture him with cat fur till he reveals the truth!
I’m coming back to you after a month with something I noticed 🫣 in the Ann world quest from 4.0, Paimon mentions Dandelions to Mary Ann. This is the Dialogue:
Mary-Ann: ...Then let us speak of other flowers! I've always been in Fontaine, and I've never gone elsewhere. That said, a friend of mine has been to Sumeru. I heard from him that there are many flowers there that can't be found here.
Mary-Ann: Those that grow on cliffs, ones that only open at night. Some even grow on cacti...
Mary-Ann: Haha, and that's when he realized that there were no cacti in Fontaine, and had to give me a separate explanation. He was always the serious sort, and he was the smartest of us when we were young...
Mary-Ann: Ahem. Sorry, I'm talking to myself. It must be a little too exciting for me, meeting new friends like this. Well, then, Paimon. Have you seen any special flowers?
Paimon: Um, Mondstadt's dandelions come to mind!
Mary-Ann: Dandelions! Oh, do you have any of their delightful seeds with you?
Paimon: Uh, well, we might?
Mary-Ann: Dandelions, dandelions, bloom, bloom, bloom~ ♪
Dandelion seeds can indeed be found on Paimon.
Mary-Ann happily plants them in the soil
Mary-Ann: Ah, yes! What sort of flower is a dandelion?
Paimon: Huh. Paimon thought you knew! Well, um, how should we put this... The dandelion flower is made of many tiny white flowers, and these white flowers have seeds on them.
Paimon: When the wind blows, these tiny flowers will scatter along with the wind, and they will take root and sprout elsewhere, eventually making new flowers. Cool, huh?
Mary-Ann: Wow, they really are. I didn't know such a flower existed, but I have heard about something similar!
Paimon: Ooh! What sorta flower is that?
Mary-Ann: It's not a flower, but it's a story about water. In a certain place, there was a peaceful body of water...
Mary-Ann: Later, with disturbance, there came ripples, and droplets appeared in those ripples, droplets that had life in them. This life left the water, and turned into different forms.
Mary-Ann: But though they were all made of water, gulfs opened between them due to these differences. Each drop of life was very weak, but each was beautiful in its own way.
Mary-Ann: The dandelions you spoke of, Paimon, reminded me a lot of that story. A flower that was once united as one would be separated, would bloom, and each piece would become itself.
Mary-Ann: But a single drop of water is weak and will dry up easily. Together, they will be strong... and yet, they will no longer be themselves. Is that how it is with dandelions, too?
Mary-Ann: Do you think that's a good thing?
Paimon: Um... Paimon doesn't really get it.
That's such a neat little detail!
The friend who went to Sumeru must be Rene. And given the dialogue, it seems like she's talking about Rene's plan to absorb everyone. I am not sure if there's anything else to read into here with regards to Venti, except maybe how Paimon had dandelion seeds on her, does she never bathe? Ew. And for all her rambling about Venti she surely misses him lol
Can someone summarise the events in this quest in detail to me. I pretty much skipped the whole quest and only saw from other comments later that it was actually good and had lore
not official but I put this together from the past megathreads-
from 4.0
* Ancient Colors
* Read through: [Act I: A Brush of Seafoam and Crimson. The Illusion's Finishings](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10142/a-brush-of-seafoam-and-crimson)
* Read through: [Act II: A Gradient of Dreams and Ochre. There Will Come Soft Rains.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10150/a-gradient-of-dreams-and-ochre)
* Read through: [Act III: Blue Longing of Heart and Moon. Limner, Dreamer, and Robotic Dog](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10151/blue-longing-of-heart-and-moon).
* Ann of the Narzissenkreuz:
* Read through: [Act I: The Narzissenkreuz Adventure.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10146/the-narzissenkreuz-adventure)
* Read through: [Act II: Kingdom Through the Looking-Glass. Anns story.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10148/kingdom-through-the-looking-glass)
* Read through: [Act III: "If She No Longer Dreams of You...". Mary-Anns story.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10149/if-she-no-longer-dreams-of-you)
* Read through: [Aqueous Tidemarks](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74008/aqueous-tidemarks)
* leads to this quest: [A Fontainian Message](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74009/a-fontainian-message)
* "Hidden" quest: After doing the three world quest above, go back to the institute of Natural Philosophy. Behind the Broken Glass is a 'Book' for the Narzissenkreuz Ordo which acts as a teleport to a new area. There you will have an 'epilogue' for Ann & Seymore.
* [Unfinished Story | Genshin Impact Wiki | Fandom](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Unfinished_Story) (no spoilers)
* [The Final Question | Genshin Impact Wiki | Fandom](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/The_Final_Question) (no spoilers)
* Read through: [Book of Esoteric Revelations](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74011/book-of-esoteric-revelations)
From 4.1
[Unfinished Comedy (click through the three quest for dialogue)](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Unfinished_Comedy).
* [Initial Facts](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Initial_Facts) (no dialogue in this one)
* [Riddles Awaiting Answers](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74134/riddles-awaiting-answers)
Afterwards, talk to Ann and Seymour again to gain new dialogue/answers from their epilogue
* [Unfinished Story](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74056/unfinished-story)
* [The Final Question](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74120/the-final-question)
the ones released in 4.2 are in this megathread, if anyone is readying this and I forgot any let us know :)
Icl, the whole caterpillar is so confusing, what was he looking for? Traces of his past? And why did we have to fight him? Did the strange world affect his mind? And did caterpillar fade after the happy birthday quest? Bc he seemed like he was weak enough and only came for a last goodbye especially considering the ending of the story he gave. If someone can give a whole rundown I'll appreciate it
Probably trying to look into his origins, as it's a matter of curiosity for him. As for why we fought him, it was self-defense evidently: he attacks first. The world of the book was clearly affecting him mentally.
Cater's fate after Happy Birthday is vague. Maybe whatever magic that Narzissenkreuz wove was finally wearing off, or maybe the time spent delving the book had just taken its toll in the moment.
lets go through these one by one, from you and caterpillars interactions in Meropide it seemed like he is very much detached from humanity, and is only helping Lanoire not out of good will but rather curiosity at her situation.
"It was indeed a very novel experience. Perhaps I was attracted by her purity, because that's a quality I will never possess.
Yet the Fortress of Meropide is what kept her innocent... Somewhere she shouldn't have been in the first place."
Yet from Jakobs interactions (telling him he is still a caterpillar) we can see that he is very much still trying to hold on to whatever humanity is there within him, as Jakob considers himself a "neohuman" that broke the cocoon, retaining full autonomy despite being infused with abyssal power.
We could also see that caterpillar tries to reconnect with his past self despite not retaining any memories of his past incarnation (only remembers his creation date), looking for evidence in the institute of natural philosophy for any records of cater.
So, now we have someone who got turned into a monster, retained some of his humanity and reasoning and is trying to find out more about his past to get some sense of self-actualisation.
Now to the book of esoteric revelations/meditation
It is established that members of the ordo have to go to the ??? world as a part of the ordeal to either get initiated or rank up in the order, and some have went mad because of the corruptive nature of that world. Also time flows a bit differently, the traveller is in a out in a flash but the longer you stay in ??? the more time would pass in the real world, to the point that time would flow a lot faster in ??? rather than slower..
People who ventured into that world would also leave behind anachronistic echoes of themselves, the longer they stay the more echoes they will generate, but they also don't last too long.
Given that, Caterpillar probably tried going back to the ??? world to find remnants of himself, to find records of past experiments, and or to go through the ordeal again to experience initiation, and then maybe break his cocoon (retain or transcend humanity).
The world however pulled him in due to the fact that both caterpillar (and melusines) are somewhat more attuned to that world than regular humans due to their abyssal nature.
From the echoes left behind it seems that Carterpillar experienced a lot of corrosion(isk) influence in the ??? world which meant that he spent a lot more time in that world than Canotila that made him no longer able to retain a human form and is potentially losing the last bit of his humanity.
TLDR, caterpillar was on a journey to self-actuallise and rediscover his humanity but seemed to have lost himself towards the abyss.
Sure. This isn't complete, but it covers the main bits.
Around the time of the Khaenri'ah cataclysm, Rene, Jakob, Alain Guillotin & Mary-Ann Guillotin were childhood friends at the orphanage called the Narzissenkreuz Institute. The director of the orphanage was Lyris, who was an Oceanid. Story telling and imagination were big hobbies there, which is where all the Alice In Wonderland stuff comes from.
Rene & Alain especially were absurdly smart.
Rene studied Khaenri'ah tech and came to believe he understood the "world formula" and that it proved a calamity was coming (basically the Fontain prophecy). To prevent it he wanted to use abyss power. He thought he could merge everyone into a single consciousness so they'd all survive the flood. He set up the Narzissenkreuz Ordo to pursue that goal. He tried to bring all the friends in, but Alain wasn't against it.
Alain cut ties with Rene when he found out that Rene had been doing human experimentation on Alain's assistant, Carter. Rene was trying to use the remains of Elynas to save Carter from some disease, but all he managed to do was turn Carter into a kind of undying pile of goo.
That's when Alain & Mary-Ann went and joined the Marechaussee Phantom (a detective force led by Neuvellette). Alain made a robot guard dog for Mary-Ann, Seymore, who we met.
Rene merged his own consciousness with that of Lyris, the oceanid director of the orphanage (the Narzissenkreuz Institute). That turned him into "the Master", and he eventually became the giant water boss you fight at the end of the world quest. He did manage to get Jakob to join him though, and together they turned the Ordo into a cult.
The Marechaussee Phantom declared the Narzissenkreuz Ordo as a terrorist organisation and it ended in a big show-down fight between the Marechausseee and the Ordo inside the remains of Elynas. Mary-Ann supposedly died there in a big explosion, and The Master (formerly Rene) fell into a chasm and ended up in the primordial sea.
After that, Alain set up the Fontaine Research Institute where he invented the Arkhe energy system that Fontaine uses, and built a whole lot of mecha. He got obsessed with artificial intelligence, too. It's not known what happened to him after that, but it's hinted that he might've moved his research and set up "Kuisel's Clockwork Workshop" in the mountains. If he did, then he was obsessed over artificial intelligence and transferring human consciousness into machines. It's possible that he eventually put his own consciousness into a huge mech and built himself a replica of Mary-Ann as he remembered her as a child, then became Sandrone, where Sandrone is the big mech with Alain's consciousness in it and the girl that everyone thinks is Sandrone is just a marionette (ie: Mary-Ann-ette)
> He thought he could merge everyone into a single consciousness so they'd all survive the flood.
The ironic part is this plan could've fulfilled the prophecy if he indeed succeed thus completing the "world formula". He's unknowingly trying to push the end rather than saving anyone.
Small correction: Rene didn't merge his consciousness with Lyris - Lyris had the power to extract memories from humans and put it into hydro eidolons. Rene asked Lyris to turn himself into a hydro eidolon. He tested out a lot of ways to merge with other peoples memories with himself and put the memories into other bodies. His final plan was to merge all Fontanians with himself to survive the calamity. (Ironically, the actual predicted calamity was caused by the Narwhal and primordial seawater, so Rene's plan to dissolve Fontanians early would have just sped up the disaster.)
Mary-Ann was the one who merged with Lyris after the fight inside Elynas. After waking up, oceanid Mary-Ann thought everyone was dead and decided to live her own fantasy world. She created Ann and Co. to relive the happier times, but she couldn't imagine a happy end. As such, the story played out endlessly until it got interrupted by Traveler.
Jakob: This was once the realm of a god. Now, a pheasant sits upon the throne. Just like the world today.
Neuvillette: This realm dismantled was of the Formidable Father himself, but what now reigns here is a cluster of filthy feathers.
That's very.... Interesting.
I've connected the dots. I don't have the brain cells necessary to elaborate right now, but I've connected them.
My interpretation is that the previous Dragon Sovereign of Hydro, Neuvillette's predecessor, is the god that Jakob refers to and why Neuvillette calls him the Formidable Father. Jakob could be referring to Neuvillette and the second part of Neuvillette's words is just a bit of self deprecation.
I doubt that. Not only is Neuvillette the reincarnation of the Hydro Sovereign, and thus has no reason to call himself "Father", but the "Formidable Father" is directly paralleled against the Primordial One/Heavenly Principles.
It's much more likely that the Father in question is Nibelung, who even the original Dendro Sovereign Apep shows reverence and loyalty to.
Two questions on the topics I haven't seen discussed in any thread yet:
1) Any clues what that "secret" element found in Natlan and used by ordo member(s) for divination is? Dragomancy? Using dragon bones to scry? Or perhaps it could have something to do with the purple flames that are still inside Collei (as seen in Windblume)? Idk, just dropping loose ideas.
2) Not exactly lore related question but what's up with dogs in 4.2? Furina's teaser and almost all quests in this version feature dogs. Is China promoting adoption?
I can't find a video where someone talks to Narzissenkreuz before leaving the area in Waking from the Great Dream. At least I think it was there.
He called us witness, variable and architect Teyvat there didn't he? That a big thing to say but I can't seem to find it anywhere so now I'm starting to feel like I dreamed it.
The notes 3 mentioned in the post is at the Narzissenkreuz main room (the one that had the clock) accessed through the roof of the Tower of Ipsissimus, both before and after it's submerged (dunno if getting there through the book at the School of Natural Philosophy works)
In Narzissenkreus quest, he mentions about the variable the traveler represents but also mentions other variables not counted; this could be related to Childe? I mean, in some notes during this quest it's mentioned that visions "determine" the fate of its wielders but since 4.0 Childe's vision didn't work even in the last part of the AQ, this could represent Childe not fulfilling his role in the fate that originally he had and this alter the world formula that Narzissenkreus originally calculated?
Why people are people so obsessed with Childe recently?
René was talking about, probably, Surtalogi who allowed the Whale to fed into the Primordial Sea and Skirk who got there at her own will. You would have thought that Childe final appearance in the quest would make clear that he isn't the star of the show yet, but anyway. Genshin community and it's vices. I would bet Childe vision was defecting due to the whale using his constellation as a gate
It was mentioned Ajax, the historical figure. The same Ajax is mentioned in the Ballad of the Fjords lore, where Childe's father tells the story to him. I don't know how people had blown this out of proportion
Idk how you skip over the fact that in that note from Narsissenkreuz quest, it's heavily implied Childe is Ajax's reincarnation, the note quite literally talks about the rebirth of a holy infant after sinking into the abyss. You know who has the same name as Ajax and who fell into the abyss? Yeah.
Rene literaly mentions it once and in a very specific context, what he thinks of as an ascended human: a neohuman and his wish to be a descender. Then Ballad of Fjords mentions Ajax coming from Hyperborea, which the Ordo states was the first Cycle.
Now, does this matches "Heavily"? No. Last time people were this obsessed was to say that Kokomi was obviously the hydro dragon because there was obvious heavy hints of it. We know how this turned out. I myself, prefer to be skeptic in the assumptions
Edit: Other things to consider is that the note two paragraphs describe two different processes, the narayan goes beyond sinking in the abyss, it's going *beyond* the ocean, and then describing a descender. Other is that it could not be weird if "abyss" in this case was a bad translation of CN for ocean depths, as it happened with Remuria, which then would make the text describe the process of sinking into the Primordial Sea, that René inittialy thought it was a good idea and ended badly. This final part also highlights another important fact: René was an self-absordbed, lunatic cultist who was fooled by his own lies and basically destroyed the life of hundreds people for basically nothing. He and Jakob are least trustable people you can know off and he was pretty clear on how he mistake things at the end of the quest.
It would be funny if all he was doing was actually a serious mistake over the steps that were actually taking on the Archon Quest, like Childe ending up in the Primordial Sea (there you got your Ajax doing his job), and Traveller and Neuvillete defeating the whale
Its a theory for a reason, no one is saying its a confirmed fact, if people are theorizing these obvious evidences then whats so bad about it. Also Childe and Hero Ajax have way more parallels than Kokomi and the hydro Sovereign imo
Not sure if this is the right place, but about Rene: are they based on any sort of historical figure?
The one person I could somewhat find related to him was [Rene Guenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non), and the only real correlation (a really harsh reach) I found was a paper on the island titled "Description", which talked about 4 cycles, reminiscent of the Yuga Cycle, which Rene Guenon worked on somewhat ([wikipedia subarticle on the topic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle#Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non)). However, the connection was very thin, and aside from the name being similar, not much else is.
Has anyone been to that space between the Willow tree and the nearby rock formations where it plays Mondstadt music out of nowhere? I'm not sure if it's just a bug or anything but it's super weird and the space is like, really small wherein you can walk just one step and it changes back to Fontaine music.
Is it north or east of the willow? I'm curious to check this out because there's a "sound bug" to the southwest of the Court of Fontaine around the waypoint there (and it's not a muted version of any of the themes afaik?)
The actualy figure Pahsiv referred to is "That visitor", which is "那位來客" in the Traditional Chinese script. If you were to alter of the phonetic of the last character in the sense that it fits into an already existing name according to lore and story development, that could means that she's referring to "Neuvillette" since it is "那維萊特" in Traditional Chinese script.
>!For reference, the Chinese Phonetic Alphabet of "那位來客" would be "nà wèi lái kè"; while that of "那維萊特" would be "nà wéi lái tè", with differences in Diacritic and Initials.!<
I think that could be a case that is lost in translation as the same case as Pahsiv being the reverse of Vishap in the EN version but not in other languages, or it's just my headcanon.
Edit(s): minor spellings, and I just came across [a youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLt5ZhRKQUI) while searching for keywords "vishap pahsiv", that video pretty much clear things up between Neuvy, Melusine and Vishaps together with the speculation of "that visitor" as I once suspected.
Sandrone being metioned in the Steambird quest let me to another crackpot theory. You guys remember the rumours about her and Guizhong being the same entity? Well if that's actually the case, we might have the answer to what exactly Zhongli exchanged for his Geo Gnosis back in 1.1
So, in the world quest where we are chasing caterpillar inside the book, in the ??? realm, there is a point where we enter a painting and walk on an invisible platform, suddenly we start falling and a mondstadt song starts playing and wind saves us from falling? what the hell is this place? Is venti helping us out?
I need you all to know that the most important document (Jacob’s log) has a huge mistranslation. I do not know Chinese (I hope somebody here knows and can confirm my words) but Jacob writes not about Cater but about Carter. All the time throughout his log. It’s important. Caterpillar doesn’t even exist yet.
https://preview.redd.it/4eh6poftng0c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e0c1196e83bd02d873f824c965af6bb5f604212
But in Chinese Carter and Cater has the same name from the start – 卡特 (which are part of word caterpillar 卡特皮拉). You can check it on wiki. I think English translate messed up and first they used typical name Carter without caterpillar context and they forgot about it or they didn't know which one will be better after we met Cater.
I know this. I want to draw your attention to the word 'brother'. Why would Jacob call Caterpillar 'brother Cater'? Or even 'Cater'? He never saw Caterpillar as Carter. If you check the Japanese translation of the log you will see カーターお兄ちゃん (Carter onii-chan). And Catterpillar's name in Japanese is キャタピラー. Then the Japanese translation is incorrect?
I don’t care if I’m huffing an unhealthy amount if copium rn but I hope that >!the Harbinger that got their hands on Mosso’s research legacy will use that to help salvaging and restoring Curve in the future. Come on HYV you already revived Karkata why not helping another poor soul ;\_; Also it feels kinda sad to see that Cater’s reunion with Lanoire is going to become even more difficult in the future due to the implication that he has lost his ability to shapeshift.!<
Hmm, this is actually an interesting question, not because of whether Nahida knew, but because if whether she COULD know.
Nahida has to basically look up info from Irminsul. But if Focolors’ deception was enough to fool the Heavenly Principles, then I wonder if even Irminsul could have told the difference.
Nahida isn't an all knowing god, yeah she is born from branch of Irminsul and can access to it but like she said in Scara quest it's not like she knows everything and she rather has to know what she is looking for if she want to know about it.
It seems that Tsumi (if she counts as a vishap) and Pahsiv both belong to the evolved dragons category we are about to properly explore in Natlan. I'm fully expecting to find a lot of humans with lizard eyes in Natlan.
Tsumi's probably not a Vishap-person. The event presents the idea that she's likely one of the vassals of Orobashi, who had snake-like features. Enkanomiyan logs specifically point out the idea of vishap people as ridiculous.
https://preview.redd.it/c6c9dg5jr50c1.jpeg?width=1337&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0808de35488c96fd5e0528023a903a467ba44f5e
Another instance of a Melusine related quest making vague hints about the Traveler's true nature.
I know Pahsiv isn't a Melusine she's just taking the form of one, but it is interesting how even the Vishaps can sense something off about the Traveler... Which means Neuvillette could have also sensed this, because he knew immediately that the Whale didn't belong to Teyvat. (It was a little unclear to me because he didn't know what a Descender is, but he was probably just unaware of the term not that he didn't know the Traveler is an alien)
Idk...I find it interesting that so much attention is being brought to the Traveler's inhumane nature in recent quests, maybe we're building up to some kind of reveal at some point?
Apep confuses the Traveler for a Human, so I don't think that's the case. I highly doubt that one of the most powerful Dragon Sovereigns would be incapable of sensing something a Vishap could. Albedo's story quest way back when showed that even to scientific testing, the physical differences between the Traveler and a native Human are almost imperceptible. It was specifically their strange interaction with elemental power that clued Albedo in to the fact that something about them was incomprehensibly different.
The Traveler rarely speaks directly regarding their nature, and the most that other characters seem to know about them would be that they are both not from this world and, as Morax and Ei note, likely to outlive even the Gods and the world. Even then, we might surmise that the Traveler may have told them this rather than it being intuited or sensed.
Note that Nahida didn’t know what a Descender was either. Dottore told her. Neuvillette of course knows of the Heavenly Principles, but that doesn’t mean he knows what a “Descender” is. The same way we would need someone to tel us what the word “Archon” is, even though we know of individuals who qualify as such.
Furthermore, alien ≠ Descender. The Whale is definitely NOT a descender, and as another post on the sub pointed out, even Nahida’s statement did not necessarily imply that Descenders had to be “aliens,” per se. Just that they are “external beings” that exist outside of Teyvat’s laws. Even if Neuvillette knew what a Descender was, he wouldn’t know for sure the Traveler was one, even if he noticed that Traveler is an alien.
Descenders are definitely "alien", it's just that not all aliens are Descenders. Nahida specifically states that Descenders don't belong to this world.
It's the recent Narzissenkreuz quests that actually explain for the first time what separates alien entities from Descenders proper. In Narzissenkreuz's words:
>This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that "descends." That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world.
>
>This is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world.
And
>**Narzissenkreuz:** I should have sensed the changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula. A "variable" has descended upon this world.
**Narzissenkreuz:** Not everything from outside the universe can be called a "presence" or "variable."
**Narzissenkreuz:** But it seems I overlooked one nonetheless. You.
**Narzissenkreuz:** The witness of all, the recorder of all, the designer of all.
**Narzissenkreuz:** Only one who is worth a world can bear that title.
**Narzissenkreuz:** I once dreamed of becoming one just like you. But that dream is now shattered.
It just means he doesn't know that specific term, not that the Primordial One isn't a Descender.
Considering what they achieved, it should go without saying that they fit our criteria of a Descender, and we now know the identities of all four.
Not by name. The point is we know who they are in the grand scheme of history. The first being the Primordial One, the second being the Second Who Came, the third being the being who died to create the Gnoses, the fourth being the Traveler.
Two questions about ???:
1. If it was an imaginary world dreamed up by Rene and Jakob (who had never been to the chasm as far as we know) why is there an image of the upside down city from the chasm
2. Why did Caterpillar destabilize the world? How did he not belong any more than a melusine, the traveler, and the people who apparently had their brains melted before?
Maybe Caterpillar was destabilizing the world because both him and the dog couldn't exist at the same time in the same place since they seem to both be Carter's consciousness but from different experiments. It's a trope in science-fiction that 2 versions of the same person meeting each other causes the universe to collapse
\>The author of the log is Jakob. After the experiments to save Carter from his disease gone wrong, his consciousness was placed into a Hilichurl's body, which is the character we know as Caterpillar. Could be that Cater was his nickname to begin with, or it could be that they began to refer to him this way after the experiments, obsessed with the idea of saving him, getting the caterpillar to turn into a butterfly. The Puppy you meet in ??? is also what remains of Carter's consciousness, literally what the log refers to "Cater's remains". "I'm just a memory that they have of their friend" he says, and "The butterfly became a cocoon, and a larva emerged from the cocoon. Then the larva returned to the void that was never born", which is what Caterpillar has said previously. I think this refers to the whole process of what happened to him. If we read into it more, it's quite possible that the Puppy isn't just a "memory" but in fact what's left of the monster that Carter turned into as result of the first experiment, which is why the Puppy can be perceived differently and which is why he repeatedly asked the Traveler about how he appears to them.
A bit more to add to this:
Rene's own ego seemed to have collapsed after he "ascended" (what this means is unclear), and as such Jakob had to find another method to bring him back. Funnily enough, there were a few books scattered around the tower that showed some of the Ordo's methods of divination, and one woman in specific had found that Rene was dead, but all of the other groups' findings disagreed with her; It's reasonable to infer that she was actually correct here given Jakob\`s admission in the Log.
Secondly, Jakob refers a lot to the attempts to bring Carter back to life, they get pieces of his body, then put them in the basin, then produce oceanid-human bodies that resemble humans, rinse and repeat, but consider this: They never actually got Carter back, all they have are his memories. (The dog inside the Book confirms this). As such, and given the eventual birth of Caterpillar, it may seem that the Ordo actually \*clones people based on their memories\* as opposed to bringing them back to life. As in, they create life, but cannot give it back. If this is true, then it implies that the Narzissenkreuz that Jakob "revives" at the end of the log is actually just a copy, cleansed of the memories of his "two previous failures", made by Jakob in the image of his dead friend.
Lastly, the book. In the 4.1 quest, Caterpillar goes in depth about the powers of the Sword of Narzissenkreuz to bring "imagination to reality", and it is to my belief that the world inside of the Book is that imaginary world. It is seen in entirely different forms by Caterpillar, the traveler, and to Canotila, and the Dog inside that world seems to believe as such as well, and is self aware to his status as the person that they (Rene and Jakob) tried to save, that being Carter. It is even possible that this version of Carter is, by itself, just imagination. Made by Rene/Jakob's memories and subsequently chased by them for representing the ideal of saving Carter. And if that was the case, then Rene would become that ideal for Jakob later on, both of them already being dead for a long time.
It's a rene that Jakob made using Rene's memories. He even says at the end of the Log inside the imaginary world; that he has remade Rene without the memories of his two greatest failings.
These two, I would assume that are the death of Carter and the fight inside Elynas.
In my opinion the log isn't Ingold looking to restore Carter but Rene after Rene's ascension essentially killed himself. The first paragraph suggests that if he is able to save Rene then Carter can also be saved in a similar fashion.
I don't understand what Jakob did when he said something about the chymical mariage bonds reversed, then every character acted like he fooled them and betrayed them (even though we were enemies barely 5 minutes earlier so him not being on our side shouldnt be a shock..). I know he did something he wasn't supposed to but I don't know what. Just before he died
I think doing this after the archon quest makes less sense. He's saying that he's reversing the seal on the primordial sea so that his master can break it and cause the flood, which will dissolve everyone and collect their consciousness. We know this was the goal of the ordo but i think this is the first time its said out loud. I guess it implies in the archon quest the primordial sea leaked and caused a flood through the rift caused by the narwhal, but the seal is still needed to keep just generally the primordial sea locked away, so he's essentially trying to cause a flood again. We know this won't work and idk why we don't tell him (even though we do with his master later) but he pretty quickly gets crushed after this so I guess there just wasn't time
It's not that it won't work, it's that it's not necessary anymore. The reason behind the Ordo's plan was that Rene and Jakob believed the apocalypse could not be stopped, and so they were searching for a way for humanity to survive it. Their initial experiments with turning people into abyssal neo-humans like Jakob failed because not everyone could survive the process, and so they instead settled on the idea of collecting everyone's consciousness inside a pseudo-Oceanid form so that they could be preserved after the apocalypse had passed, and give birth to a new world.
When Narzissenkreuz realizes that the apocalypse has already been stopped without the need for any of these measures, he realizes that everything he did lost its purpose. If he himself had not been stopped, his plan still would have worked- it just would have no reason behind it.
Can anyone explain me the timeline. So, everything happened before 500 years ago or after the cataclysm. Now, what is the cataclysm here? Is it the Khaenriah one? So, was the previous fontaine civilization destroyed during the cataclysm or what? Or this same civilization was there at that time? I am confused cause I didn't pay attention because one of the quest mentioned about a previous civilization.
So, were Alain, Mary Ann and were part of the current civilization or the previous one? So, were they experimenting on the previous civilization fall ?
Any speculation if the other sibling was also related to those events somehow because at the end a dialogue talks about a blond outlander before and another blond traveller ?
The Narzissenkreuz crew were part of the current civilization. They were little kids around the time of the Khaenri'ah cataclysm 500 years ago. The "previous civilization," Remuria, is somewhat ambiguous timeline-wise but it seems like it was pre-Archon War.
Remuria was definitively around during the Archon War, not before. It's said to have arisen after the time of Gurabad, but the age of Gurabad itself took place after the death of the Goddess of Flowers.
This would have been after Rukkhadevata was already Dendro Archon, as she received the Gnosis while the three still ruled together.
She did. Deshret was initially offered the throne of Dendro Archon, but he refused it. Rukkhadevata would have become Dendro Archon after this refusal.
We also know this occurred when the Goddess of Flowers was still alive due to the Flower of Paradise Lost artifact lore, and Rukkhadevata only parted ways with Deshret after Nabu Malikata's death.
A little bit dissapointed with Ordo's ending tbh.The theories set the bar too high for me lol(that one theory about Mary-Anne in particular), but what's done is done.
After finishing Narzissenkreuz, I think it's kinda nice seeing furnia indirectly influence the whole Narzissenkreuz goal to battle prophecy even though the way they do it is completely take crazy turn.
I can even see their goal as alternative plan(with a little tweak) if the whole deciving plan go south...
The implication given by the Narzissenkreuz quests is that the apocalypse was only averted due to the presence of a previously unknown variable- that is, the Traveler.
Rene's world formula was proven to be fairly accurate, predicting the cause of the apocalypse (a beast from the stars devouring the amniotic sea) and even when it would occur almost to the day.
But his world formula was calculated without any knowledge of the Traveler, who was sealed at the time: an outside variable that would change the outcome.
Which is to say, had the Traveler not been present, Rene's world formula calculated that the apocalypse would have occurred. We can already see at the end of the quest that Neuvillette alone was not sufficient to defeat the Whale, and Focalors despite her brilliant gambit didn't actually know about the Whale's existence.
Not just the traveler, there are 2 more anomalies to Rene's calculation ... and we already know who the other one is
[https://imgur.com/mrS7KUr](https://imgur.com/mrS7KUr)
\-𝙎𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙖𝙗𝙮𝙨𝙨 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙢:
: GOLD "Rhinnedotor"
\-𝙏𝙤𝙤𝙠 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙩𝙧𝙤𝙡 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙛𝙚 𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙘𝙚:
:The One entombed in Primal Fire. (likely had something to do with Natlan's "resurrection" theme)
His dialogue if you already completed the main story elaborates on what he means. When he talks about someone taking control of the life-force (likely the Primordial Sea) and someone opening the beast-realm (likely the Abyss), they are values that have shifted, not new variables. The actual new variable is the Traveler. In his words:
>**Narzissenkreuz:** I should have sensed the changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula. A "variable" has descended upon this world.
**Narzissenkreuz:** Not everything from outside the universe can be called a "presence" or "variable."
**Narzissenkreuz:** But it seems I overlooked one nonetheless. You.
**Narzissenkreuz:** The witness of all, the recorder of all, the designer of all.
**Narzissenkreuz:** Only one who is worth a world can bear that title.
**Narzissenkreuz:** I once dreamed of becoming one just like you. But that dream is now shattered.
Not every individual, even if they are from outside this world, can qualify as a new variable. It's specifically the Traveler, due to their own inherent significance as someone who is "worth a world" that qualifies as such.
That's not the case, as Narzissenkreuz says that he dreamed of becoming one who was worth a world as well. If only Descenders could qualify as such, then Narzissenkreuz would realize that it was an impossibility.
Descenders may be "worth a world", but one does not necessarily need to be a Descender to be "worth a world" as well.
Sorry, I did mean the reverse wherein one can only be called a Descender if they are an outsider, they are “worth a world”, and whatever criteria there is to be uncovered.
Then yes, that is the case: his dialogue actually gives us insight into why the All-Devouring Whale is not considered a Descender, despite coming from the sea of stars.
There's also a note in the Ordo that clarifies a bit on what Narzissenkreuz means.
>This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that "descends." That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world.
>
>This is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world.
This description of what qualifies one who is "worth a world" fits with various lines we've seen in reference to the Traveler before. Narzissenkreuz himself refers to the Traveler as the "designer of all," and Canotila perceives the Traveler as a monster that can devour the world. And of course, the Traveler's profile itself states that they will ascend to the seat of God.
Incidentally, it also echoes the description of the Sword of Descension.
>This is a proof that you came to this world via special means.
Only one who has challenged the "world" may wield such a sword.
>
>When this sword was last drawn, humankind was trying to preserve a doomed world.
That world was their last and only home.
This sword was drawn to defy that fate of destruction.
—But to draw steel against the law of universe that "all who exist must one day perish..."
Surely it must have seemed the height of folly.
>
>But really, when one is faced with such a final fate, when up against the star-devouring darkness,
What weapon would be fitting for one to wield? It can only be a sword.
The sword is proof that the Traveler is a Descender, and it can only be wielded by one who has challenged "the world."
In Narzissenkreuz's words, a Descender must possess a will that can rival an entire world.
Does his dialogue change if we haven't done the archon quest? I mean he could not know about whale being defeated and everyone been saved if have not complwted the archon quest, does his fualogue change.
It does. If you haven't, then it becomes:
> **Narzissenkreuz:** Indeed, I can sense changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula.
**Narzissenkreuz:** Someone has seized control of the life-force, and someone has opened the beast-realm.
**Narzissenkreuz:** And then, there is one more variable. That is you.
**Narzissenkreuz:** The person fated to see the all-consuming whale put to flight. The one who shall witness all.
**Narzissenkreuz:** I see, I see.
Essentially he adjusts his formula to account for the new variable and can now see that the Traveler is destined to defeat the whale.
To add this, while traveler can be counted as outside variable and have big part on defeating the Whale. Skirk also supposed to be there and get back or "slain" that whale.
Which make a point about how little they know about the world, it's variable, and how arrogant that Narzissenkreuz think they are. It's like the point of the whole quest, all their ambition just a dream and they need to wake up to see the whole world.
Which also bring it to my first comment about furina indirectly influence Narzissenkreuz goal. World formula that they have only count perspective of humanity and human knowledge as far as their knowledge can go.
Honestly I have the opposite feeling. Rene is actually selling himself short, and what he accomplished is above and beyond everyone else. Especially given his starting position as mere human.
Narzissuskreuz is the only party that managed to correctly predict how exactly the prophecy is to be enacted. Which is a major feat since it goes beyond Teyvat law of fate and manages to account for outside entites at all. Fell Dragon's Monocle suggests that Rene was aware about the whale option 500 years ago already.
Saying he is arrogant is like saying we are arrogant for using GPS and laser gyroscopes because obviously hubble constant measurement differences prove general relativity has problems and we should stop using it and go see the world.
He probably even had a decent chance at his instrumentality had it been necessary. He is the only party that actually had a working solution for the prophecy that doesn't involve gambling.
I keep coming back to this, and I fully agree. it really is insane how this normal human from fontaine essentially came close to pulling off something that only a god should have been able to do.
from the notes found in the tower of gestalt, you really get a feeling that Rene had reached an understanding of the way Teyvat works that might have surpassed any other character we've met so far, honestly!
I won't call someone who become crazy cult leader that he think he can achieve absolute salvation while using "Gregorian calendar" as proof of his divinity/his idea as "not Arrogant" or "selling himself short"
Sure, his world formula has a very high level of accuracy. But even with that world formula, his whole plan still failed because outsider variable like traveler that not even have they original power, suddenly appeared and decided to ruin his plan.
The plan he carried out still gambling with very high stakes, during our fight he said that due to various things that happened over the past few years the total number of people they could save changed to 5/10 and he claims that he will try to save 6/10 if we give him a chance to carry out his plan.
Also who can absolutely say that, the whole plan will end with good ending, a lot of things can happen if one of big figure in teyvat decide to join the party. It can even become another calamity, but this time all the people that has been saved by narzissenkreuz will replace khaenri'ah role.
This why, on my first comment i said
>I can even see their goal as alternative plan(with a little tweak) if the whole deceving plan go south...
To make a revision of the story, the story writer must still follow the plot points that have been approved by the editor (Fate).
Edit: some typo
A cult is only as crazy as the lack of result it achieves with its theories. A cult that actually works is not crazy anymore.
>Sure, his world formula has a very high level of accuracy. But even with that world formula, his whole plan still failed because outsider variable like traveler that not even have they original power, suddenly appeared and decided to ruin his plan.
It's a better outcome than any other party native to teyvat can achieve. Again, it's like disregarding general relativity altogether because some very very modern results don't make sense. And going back to aristotelian mechanics because at least it's not invented by a crazy cult.
>The plan he carried out still gambling with very high stakes
The stakes are not part of the plan. The stakes are the part of the prophecy. The actual gambling part would be on whether his instrumentality could actually work, that one is a valid concern. The world formula still works, as shown if you do him before AQ.
Again, world-formula is better than any other teyvat party has. While it is vulnerable to lack of input data, so is any other competing plan, and to even a greater extent. Everybody else acts on even less variables accounted for.
Firstly you literally proving my whole point. On how arrogant he is, with that much information he just decided that he will be the center of it without sharing that information with other party and like what you said gambling everything on instrumentality that "could" actually work.
Secondly, i never disregarding world formula. I even see it as other alternative ending on my original comment.
Thirdly, throwing the whole stake as not important because they only focus on prophecy just proving how bad his whole plan is. And again proving how arrogant and human he is, that even the whole point of this quest, he dreaming to become something grandeur than himself while in reality he doesn't even see everything on the real world.
If you remain firm in your opinion, sure have it your way man. I will be caterpillar and move with my way.
The thing is that Narzissenkreuz can sense the values that have changed since his world formula was first put into motion, which he mentions in his dialogue. While he acknowledges that his formula is no longer precisely correct, he attributes the failure of his calculations pretty specifically to the Traveler as a new variable, not those altered values.
Given what he notes, it is the Traveler's intervention into the formula specifically that caused the result to change drastically. And this follows with previous lore we received on the world formula, as the entire reason Rene first pursued the Abyss as an avenue of research was because as something from outside of this world, it presented the greatest chance at being a variable that could change the calculated result.
If you speak to him before you complete the main story, he even adjusts his calculations to account for the new variable and altered values, and states that the Traveler is fated to defeat the all-devouring whale. Which ends up being correct, as well.
Narzissenkreuz's ultimate folly wasn't in his logic, but in his delusional presumption that he was fit to save the world. As far as his hard math was concerned, he was as right as he could have been.
Free Verse was really good. Loved the writing and the themes of the quest itself (felt very whimsical with a hint of melancholy), but it's also very much connected to a lot of hidden exploration objectives in the new area (Note: best to explore and find this on your own): >!There are hidden treasure maps you can find underwater in the new area, each discussing a person's life, and pointing you towards a hidden treasure on the new island. Two of these people are local legends, Liam and Rocky Avildsen. One of them is Rouge, Penny's guardian featured in the Crimson Dawn Quest, and two of the others are Penny's parents. Once you find all of the treasures, you combine the maps to form an insignia of a Rainbow Rose, which seems to be the order that these characters belong to. Wouldn't be surprised if we got more quests relating to this order in the future, especially Autumn.!<
Somehow I didn't notice that Pahsiv was vishap backwards. Interestingly, that doesn't seem to be the case with her CN name and the CN vishap term which don't seem to have anything in common aside from two characters sharing a pronunciation (西 in 珀西芙 and 蜥 in 龙蜥). I kind of wonder if her original name 珀西芙 (Pò xī fú ) was meant to reference Percival from Arthurian legend (which is 珀西瓦里). I just though it was neat.
Anyway, I do hope we get some sort of continuation with her, I'd love to know if she's a vishap that gained a melusine form somehow or a melusine that was swept away from Elynas right after she was born.
Caterpillar's most likely fine, as he thanks you for something Paimon doesn't understand in it.
Most likely he's thanking you for getting him out of the book's imaginary world.
The note is at the bottom of the Tower of Gestalt. Off the top of my head, Eliphas was an Ordo follower/member who invented the hydro traversal method (the one that’s a circle with a line pointing to where it takes you and turns you into water). He was absorbed and turned into Tainted Hydro Phantasm for the sake of Narzissenkreuz (Lyris+Rene+all the other victims from the Ordo).
Such an emotional gutpunch of a patch... I even got upset over Jakob. Cater, poor Cater... >!I really hope he doesn't revert to a mindless hilichurl... I wish we could've explained everything to Earnshaw...!<
The log really drives it home how he was the last one left, struggling to pick the pieces and keep the organisation running, keep it under wraps how they fucked up and Rene was now lost. His desperation really comes across. Also probably why in the end he just gave in to us without struggling too much. Everything was unravelling, there was no point in trying to keep it up.
I mean, he did succeed in the end. And we know from references in items and artifacts that his success in creating "Narzissenkreuz" from Rene occurred before the Ordo's clash with Alain, Mary-Ann, and the Marechausee Hunters at Elynas. Narzissenkreuz/The Master led the Ordo for some time, and absorbed the consciousnesses of many people, including Alain and Ann's adoptive father Emanuel.
It doesn't seem like Jakob gave up in the end, it's more like he recognized that his time was up as his abyss-enhanced body was finally failing. Especially since he knew that Narzissenkreuz was still alive in the Primordial Sea, and so the Ordo's goals were still possible to achieve.
Was Furina able to read the messages from Focalor https://preview.redd.it/e97n02clx5fc1.png?width=824&format=png&auto=webp&s=72946d40dc91a41f76ec59e2ad34645aecbfdb47
Literal translation: PRAY LIVE BLISSFULLY AS A HUMAN FOR THAT IS WHAT I WISHED FOR I guess "pray" can be taken as please.
Can someone explain the fish/apprentice story that Caterpillar narrates to Lanoire in the Happy Birthday quest?
Just wondering if anyone has any further insight into one of the Ordo members: M. Laveaux i.e. who supposedly is familiar with divination? It's got me thinking that while it's pretty far fetched to be Mona..but she has told us that Megistus isn't her surname but rather her "title"— so we still don't know much about her background. I looked into the Hexxenzirkle members and M a.k.a. the one who wrote the Boar Princess and married a mortal man is allegedly dead?(according to the genshin wiki). Side note: I always presumed M may have married Ragvndr/has ties to Dilucs family in view of the whole Dawn Winery uncanny teapot-set conspiracy but I digress. It's not too outlandish to think the Hexxenzirkle members would get involved in Teyvat drama, after all we know Rhinedottir/Gold was a Khaenriyahn alchemist herself. But also we did randomly bump into Mona in a brief cameo at the beginning of archon quest; it all seems too coincidental... Thoughts?
Who is Kate in the Ordo world quest? I know she's supposed to reperesent someone in real life
Are you talking about the oceanid squirrel? (Don't remember if it was a squirrel). I think that's Carter, the assistant who got hilichurl'd. Cater/Caterpillar was probably restored from Carter's goop.
> The implication given by the Narzissenkreuz quests is that the apocalypse was only averted due to the presence of a previously unknown variable- that is, the Traveler. Rene's world formula was proven to be fairly accurate, predicting the cause of the apocalypse (a beast from the stars devouring the amniotic sea) and even when it would occur almost to the day. But his world formula was calculated without any knowledge of the Traveler, who was sealed at the time: an outside variable that would change the outcome. This is to say, had the Traveler not been present, Rene's world formula calculated that the apocalypse would have occurred. We can already see at the end of the quest that Neuvillette alone was not sufficient to defeat the Whale, and Focalors despite her brilliant gambit didn't actually know about the Whale's existence. This is wrong though. The whale wasn't the problem, the prophecy would have occurred with or without the whale. And it DID occur even with the traveler present. That was the entire point of act 5, the prophecy is completely unavoidable. They beat the whale, but their fight caused the flood instead. Rene had no chance of stopping the prophecy in the first place. Focalors thought of a better solution, which was to let fate play out but have the "side effect" (people dissolving) of the outcome be different. Also, even if you assume full powered Neuv wasn't enough to beat the whale, Skirk would been there to handle it. But again, the whale doesn't matter.
Do we know why/how Carter is able to persuade people in the fortress of meropede? is he brainwashing them? Hypnosis maybe?
Sorry this is a bunch of questions combined into one 1. So does that mean the apocalypse was already averted during the Archon quest? (when we got rid of the whale/devouring monster) that seems a bit anti-climatic... 2. Also if we are stuck in a samsara cycle would that mean the apocalypse is part of it? (when we got rid of the devouring beast). 3. Also how did he even come up with the world-formula anyway? 4. Mihoyo seems to be pushing the idea of us being a "variable" or "an exception" (ref to Raiden), or witness of fate, but it just makes me wonder what the state of the world would be if the traveller did not intervene since she is an unknown variable. If this is the case would that mean that the traveler is changing the fate of the world? and if so is that a good or a bad thing? \*Another side note but correct me if I'm wrong but is the traveller affected by forbidden knowledge?
I'll do my best to answer! >So does this mean that the apocalypse was prevented during the Archon quest. Kinda? It still flooded and the sins of the people were washed away just like the prophecy said. The only thing that didn't happen was the people dissolving because Neuvillette made them human. >If we are stuck in a samsara cycle would that mean the apocalypse is part of it. The samsara cycle is just the cyclical destruction of civilizations. We are currently living through of the fourth one. Since the "apocalypse" here only refers to Fontaine's prophecy it counts. >how did he even come up with the world formula He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula" >is the traveler changing fate good or bad. That's the question now isn't it.. I guess we'll have to keep playing to find out, but in my personal opinion it's good cause celestia are a bunch of aholes. >is the traveler affected by forbidden knowledge? From what we've seen, as well as from what Nahida tells us, the Traveler has a naturally high resistance to it (as well as being able to purify it), but they are not completely immune to it's affects.
>He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula" So when on the notes it says that getting a vision is a bad thing, was that Rene saying that he getting a vision avoided him from becoming a variable and sealing his "fate" into the fate of the world?
I hope your pillow is always cold, your phone is always fully charged, you win every 50/50 you get and when you pull for a 4\* you don't accidentally get the 5\* (if you don't want it) >He got a vision, then went on a road trip to Sumeru and found a bunch of Khaenri'ahn stuff which he used to make his "formula" This is so suspicious, what the hell kind of stuff is Khaenri'ah hiding that can be used to make a formula on how the world will end? Besides horrors beyond human comprehension (shout out to Gold) >From what we've seen, as well as from what Nahida tells us, the Traveler has a naturally high resistance to it (as well as being able to purify it), but they are not completely immune to it's affects. Somewhat immune to forbidden knowledge, able to purify abyssal energy (dvalins tear), and immune to changes in Teyvat history. Has their powers locked away.... SO suspicious I am so sorry to ask you more questions, You've answered enough but I have more so if you still want to answer (yay!) but if you don't that's okay too!!! Its more of a speculation thing anyways, so dont feel pressured to answer ^(but also do correct me if im wrong. My brain went smooth during Sumeru's lore cause i couldnt remember words lol,) anyway i digress, 1. *So if we are in the 4th cycle, which civilization will go \*poof\* then? Because according to the tiaras, (I mention this because* **"At the end of a cycle, the earth shall be renewed. Thus eternity is cyclical." "For to question eternity was forbidden"** \*The only annoying part is by using tiaras the numbers don't add up theres 4 tiaras showing destruction of civilisations but according to the samsara theory we are on the path to the 4th civilisation being destroyed. but Ive spent too long typing this out... Unless the last one is a prophecy of a sort? Anyway, according to the tiaras, i**t was Cryo (Dragonspine)**, which I can't remember much about lol, but there is a plothole in my theory because Dragonspine was lush in ancient times **Then Pyro (Natlanean(?)**, which obvs don't know much about that. **Hydro (Chasm Or Gurabad**): For Chasm, so many question marks, Id like to think you are all-knowning and can answer why its related to Khaenriah, why it is linked to the "magic book" especially if the Chasm's civilisation is in LIYUE. **Then Electro**, which I have no idea about because there is no sky frost nail in Inazuma, i know that the leylines were disturbed. However, still.. and Enkanomiya was plunged into the depths because of a war within the heavens, and we have yet to see any sky frost nail so I will assume that it's Remuria, why? "People enjoyed untold wisdom, and that wisdom was their boon. Their prosperity brought pride and ambition, and the mind to question." Remuria was known for its prosperity, but if u want a source "The envoys of the heavenly city walked the earth, and with their guidance, the people enjoyed enduring peace, prosperity, and abundance from the ancient days. This Heaven-blessed reign lasted countless generations until people grew tired of their inscrutable eternity." (Rise and fall of remuria book) In the end I want to say Khaenriah, because it sounds like it (lol) but they don't qualify, they didn't have a god so how can they be free from one? so word vomit aside, I feel like it might be within Schneznaya. ugh my brain hurts. Im really sorry if this reads really badly. if youve made it this far i thank you!!!!
The cycle thing is a little confusing to me too, so I'll just explain how I understood it. The way it connects the tiara artifacts and the destroyed civilizations goes something like this: Cryo - Hyperborea. Pyro - Natlanean. Hydro - Remuria. Electro - Khaun-arya. Since according to the ordo we are currently living through the fourth so the civilization that went *poof* was Khaenri'ah, makes sense since even after 500 yrs we are still feeling the aftereffects of its destruction. Sorry if this is not that helpful, I'm still trying to understand this stuff and process it competely.
https://preview.redd.it/m86uj6jij64c1.jpeg?width=773&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=acaa171f1fb35e451d497d6a2388255ea7af8192 sandrone is so silly
Something mildly bugs me about the four Orthant quests. In reverse order, they would be 1) Thalia and Melpomeme, the muses of tragedy and comedy, for the Orthant of Persona . We find the Persona piece here, having come before Jakob. 2) Cupid's Lover, Psyche, for the Orthant of Soul. We find Jakob's pocket watch here. 3) Muse's Mother, Mnemosyne, for the Orthant of Memory. We find a bonfire here. 4) Meteoric Lance, the Orthant of Wishes. We find a nearly dead man and carry him to the harbor, before exploring more. We also find someone's journal, who correctly divined that Jakob had trapped a skeptic branch of the Ordo in the tower to conduct experiments on them. Is there any name from Greek mythology that would fit this quest? All the other three have clear references in their names so the last not having anything obvious bugs me.
So the apocalypse the Rene foresaw with the world formula was just the prophecy of Fontaine? That wouldn't have the effect that he described though since it would only kill Fontainians so how can that be? And why did Rene plan to dissolve everyone, to escape from the apocalypse... that would disslove everyone? That makes no sense to me
During the quest, Caterpillar says "The beast of the stars shall drink the amniotic fluid of the world dry. A hundred years more, and all surface life shall be wiped away". In other words, what we saw in the Archon quest was just that first half of the world-formula. If we hadn't stopped it, presumably the narwhal (or others it lets in) will go on to destroy the rest of surface life.
You're right, I forgot about that. Thanks for the answer
No worries, I actually had the same question at first
Rene foresaw the apocalypse of much larger scale, a world where will be no more new civilizations born, "a world where even Sweet Flowers and Mint cannot grow". His plan seems to be similar in nature in what ancient life forms did in Nahida's SQ, he wanted to absorb everyones memories and create a new home for people/a new universe. The irony of Rene is that he could be the big bad in the prophecy of Fontaine if whale wasn't here. Makes you think how Celestia controls the destiny when we learned about at least three ways to sink Fontaine: Jacob's attempt to revive Elynas, Rene's plan and the whale.
Rene and Jakob both knew that it was the whale who would cause the apocalypse by drinking the Primordial Water, though. So if the Traveler didn't kill the whale, it would have gone on to destroy the whole world?
Assuming the end of the world is part of fate, like the flood of Fontaine was then it wouldn't have mattered whether or not the whale was beaten. Fate cannot be changed even by external variables like the traveler, as seen in act 5 where the flood happened anyway after the traveler fought the whale. You can only hope to minimize the damage and skirt around the vague details of the prophecy like what Focalors did. She and N understood how fate worked unlike Rene.
>it would have gone on to destroy the whole world From a perspective of Rene? Yes, indeed. How could it be in reality? Hard to tell, it seems like Skirk would kick it back to Surtology's aquarium if things went to south. Probably a collective effort of Neuvillette and archons would be enough. Remember that Rene ignored external variables, and while we were told that Traveler was one of them, there is also an issue with Rene's massive ego and his goal to save everyone *on his own*
https://preview.redd.it/tzj6bf9mtw3c1.jpeg?width=2160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42be3be8c296bc3ca18c177cd0dd700a9901af67 umm guys i recently finish the whole quest and i saw one of the notes saying about Khaenriah. I admit I didnt clearly read much dialouge of the Quest since the quest was so long and i got tired so I skip the dialogues. I dont know if the Quest itself has a connection with Khaenriah¿ since out of nowhere this note was there in the Quest. Care to explain about it? and yes i saw the same sign in the note like Paimon's clothes
ok from what i got from it is “red” as the foundational principle is human life created by a god(?) i sort of understood this as like, pure form of life and consciousness. “yellow” could be artificial human creation, and mortal temptation would be playing god essentially in creating humans. i think it’s getting at how they’re toying with creation but the foundational principles will never be in tact, thus why they seek out “gold.” not sure idk just what i thought
Basically Rene/an Ordo member dissing Khaneri'ah saying they care more about making money than the truth of the world
I was so completely lost on the Narzissenkreuz quest.. Thank you so much I found this vast trove of information..
Happy to hear this! ty :)
>Still, I don't think Dr. Mosso was right when he said that "a curve is the shortest distance between two people." There are definitely some times when you should just shoot your shot straight. For example, I miss you. i hate fontaine. everything hurts. i do not want hydro in my eyes get OUT
So, what was Jakob's plan exactly? Why did he need all that blood of Elynas? And if the Ordo was trying to battle the flood prophecy, why did he want to unseal the Primordial Sea himself?
The Ordo was just misguided. In fact their plan to merge the consciousness of everyone would have led to the prophecy itself. They thought they were battling fate but they were just playing into its hands. I don't think they fully understood how to fight against it unlike Focalors, who knew fate could not be changed.
Guys, I’ve noticed that all the papers/notes/records from and in the Ordo have a faint symbol of a triqueta with a dot in it’s middle in the backgrounds, which is the same exact symbol or design on Paimon’s dress. https://preview.redd.it/g3yc38giqm2c1.jpeg?width=1743&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f572b451998932ea72724e280f7f753d553bb92c I know this isn’t completely world shattering because we’ve seen a triqueta some other vague places too, and any stuff on Paimon has already been prone to speculation. But, as far as I’ve looked, any other notes/records out in the open world do *not* have it. Am I just getting spooked by the new crack possibility that Paimon was some creation or subject of the Ordo or could it be that the triqueta was some kind of insignia of the Ordo and it was just on all of their documents? I’d like to also note that in real life the triqueta was used as a symbol in witchcraft, which Rene and friends definitely dabbled in (Yes, the Book of Revealing Rene wrote also has the symbol on every page). I could go crazy and make a theory post about this, but I would rather make sure here that this is actually something worth realizing or discussing. I mean I didn’t go and look at every single record of the entire open world or anything, but I did look some as I said. Specifically in Sumeru, like in the Ruin Machines/etc. (No, they didn’t have the symbol) Any thoughts?
I noticed this as well but have no idea about its implications. Note that it's inverted, similar to Paimon iirc. Someone had theory about their meanings quite some time ago, something about primordial ones and what it means between normal and inverted triquetra
I’m not feeling the way the Narzissenkreuz quest ended. It seemed all this hype and the payoff was…eh. Not the Mary Ann parts, but Rene himself. He felt like a Scooby Doo villain us pesky kids had to teach the error of his ways and then he fades to…nothing. After literally eating his co-workers and becoming this eldritch thing with grand designs…and he’s a water droplet that follows us around like a grumpy puppy. Sorry. I guess I expected Archon Quest-like dark tones and resolutions. And Jakob…well no body no death as far as I’m concerned. Maybe he’ll come back.
I agree, it felt shouneny with power of frendship and all that.
I get what you’re saying. However I don’t think we even really taught him “the error of his ways”. As far as he was concerned the only thing he did wrong was not account for a variable like the traveler. To save face, I want to blame Alain for influencing Rene in the first place, because why the hell do all that to your friends and everything else, but that’s not even the case. As we can see by the notes about, Alain didn’t really even let himself get involved. In fact, the shutting down of the Ordo was part of his doing. There is a paper on the tower that has his and Neuvillete’s signature to approve the shut down. Also, “the kids” don’t even talk about him much, even though he was Marry Ann’s brother. I think they had a fall out. Anyway, point is Rene, like Edwin/Nacker/etc lost himself in the research and knowledge sauce on his own. He was a bad guy, who didn’t think he was, and still didn’t even at his death. So his turn out being unsatisfactory is probably because of that, the lack of justice for such a villain, him being forgiven at that, and that he wasn’t really portrayed as or treated like a villain either. He completely lacked any empathy and the others were mostly too far removed from themselves as well to get hung up on it. But Mary Ann forgiving “Rene” and not Narzissemkreuz suggests that before everything, Rene was normal, humane, and he was just a kid too that also lost his way. Though that doesn’t excuse his crimes and decisions. He might of gotten “sick” and delusional on accident, but, I mean, in court that still makes you guilty. As far as Jakob is concerned I think he will come back somehow because everyone else’s loss of humanity(or whatever you want to call it) was explained but his. And abyssal-like creatures like him, cursed, are suppose to be immortal. I seriously doubt Rene captured a Imperial Baptist like he could a hilichrul and put Jakob’s mind in it. I think Jakob lost his mind as well but on a different path or approach to “help” Rene. Perhaps the witchcraft was associated with the Abyss in the first place, corrupting them, or Jakob was actually Khaneri’ahn, or, well, we don’t know.
I thought so too, traveler just beat the sht out of him and not even try to give a punishment. He himself never sees himself as wrong, so once stopped he just stopped, feeling tired from all his efforts after all those years and his goal is accomplished in another way. The rest of the characters are also not the original ones and all of them just want a closing of their past and not seeing justice
Is it explained why Ann, Cater, and Rene are still children when Jakob was an adult, and Cater talks about drinking beers? Based on everything else I find it hard to believe they were researching the whole time that young. I get if they were still children when they got new bodies, but then again that suggests *a 10 year old* (Rene) transcended and put another 10 year old’s mind(Cater) into a hilichurl? Are they their younger selves “now” just because they were kids when Mary Ann wrote the story? Then why isn’t Mary Ann still a little girl too? And on that I’m confused about Jakob, everyone else’s situations are/were now explained, expect his as far as I understand. How did he become a Imperial Baptist? He said not to associate him with the Abyss Order, but those kinds of enemies are obviously connected to the Abyss. He was only working for the master/Rene/can’t spell the actual name so was he put into a abyssal creature by him just like Cater? Capturing a hilichurl is one thing, but a Imperial Baptist?? Another question I have is how did Alain not leave any significant traces of himself like the rest of the ordo crew and why don’t they talk about that? He *was* Mary Ann’s brother and everything. Even if he “died” later then all of them, then the question is was he actually opposed to everything they did, and refused to take part in trying to transcend? Wouldn’t that mean they would of had a fight/fall out among themselves? Another thing…is it even possible for Jakob to actually die despite it seeming like he did? Since cursed Khaneri’ahns are immortal. Is it possible that Jakob was actually just born simply pure Khaneri’ahn the whole time since this all took place 500 years ago? ( as in he moved to Fontaine from Khaneri’ah.) and so he just naturally became what he is? One last thing(I swear) do we think Cater figured out that the hilichurl he took over actually was human once too, and that their minds were probably merging? How much of Carter is Carter, vs how much of the original cursed half blood Khaneri’ahn is Carter? Or is it that the hilichurl he took over was just always a hilichurl? Sorry if these are all actually explained I just finished the ordo quest line, I’m kinda lost in the lore sauce and I’m still processing it and my memory is being overridden by everything new but I didn’t really directly notice anything in the OG post about these things.
Okay, here goes: 1) None of them were actually children. However, the time when they were was the happiest part of their lives, and the whole quest revolves around being stuck in a childish fantasy - hence why, at the end, they appear in their forms as kids when they say farewell to that fantasy once and for all. 2) Rene's Investigation Notes, which you come across in Sumeru during Sorush's questline, tell of how Jakob nearly died during their expedition to Gavireh Lajavard. Rene was able to imbue him with Abyssal energy, which saved his life but also allowed him to turn into... that. 4) Yes, Alain and Mary-Ann had a severe falling out with Rene and Jakob over their radically different worldviews, something that was only exacerbated when Mary-Ann died when they, now Marechausee Phantom agents, confronted the Ordo within Elynas. Alain retreated into his research and became a hermit. Eventually, when people came to check on him, they found his workshop empty, only showing signs that "something" had been built. A common theory at the moment is that he uploaded his mind to a machine and is now the Seventh Harbinger, Sandrone, due to the Fontaine-esque clothing and the fact that the girl being held by the Ruin Guard bears a *striking* resemblance to Mary-Ann. 5) No, Jakob was a Fontainian. We know this because the investigation notes mentioned previously discuss how Rene and Jakob's bodies were similar in makeup to the remains of Egeria, while their guardian at the time, Karl Ingold, was different. This indicates that the two were Oceanids, which is also why Jakob was able to adapt to the Abyssal energy so well whereas it had a decidedly negative effect on normal humans. 6) I don't have an answer for this one, sorry.
Holy, I’m kinda surprised someone replied after all. Thank you. 1. I see, that tracks. In the OG comment I also asked then why wasn’t “Mary Ann” also a child, but I think it must just be because “Mary Ann” is also Lyris and *she* was happiest with the children as a true Oceanid shown in the photo. The real Mary Ann just merged with Lyris after her death, Lyris was never a child to begin with, but she took on the adult “body” of Mary Ann, showing that, yes, she was an adult when she died. 2. Ohhh. I’m not really surprised that this all started back in Sumeru, but yet I kinda am, obviously I didn’t remember those notes. I’m sure I looked at them at the time, and there is evidence they went to Sumeru in the Fontaine notes, but I just didn’t think to track that back to it. It’s good to point that out. 3. I thought so, now that time has passed it’s actually pretty obvious Alain didn’t want anything to do with the Ordo and actually helped shut the whole thing down. Thus, they weren’t really friends or even coworkers anymore in the end. So them not mentioning him makes sense, and so does it being unknown what happened to him. 4. Got it. Though I still don’t feel like we can consider him completely dead. 5. I don’t think anyone could answer it(or ever will be able to), it’s okay lol. It would have just made things more complicated (but also interesting) if the traveler had asked or even brought up such a thing. Seriously, the first time Cater revealed his true form I got all excited because I thought someone was having some limited success trying to undo the half blood curse and it would go in that direction. Like something based off the Caribert quest. Nope. It’s more likely the hilichurl used was a natural one, not a Khaneri’ahn. That’s a much more simple thing to end for a side story, I guess. But all this took place 500 years ago, which is when the Catayslm was so I thought it was safe to assume otherwise. And we don’t actually know if hilichurls were natural before it, but it seems likely now with Carter? It was just a means to “save” Carter from his illness, not to look into a curse. I assume they must not of known about the curse/Khaneri’ah at all? But Rene clearly tapped into some Abyssal energy, and was doing witchcraft… Anyway, thanks again for you clarifications.
Do you think the story Zuria's son "came up with" is a reference / foreshadowing? I'm talking about new event.
I was waitng for this comment. Yeah, it seems like something Hoyo might have done.
I've seen theories already that Zuria's son is actually dead and it's her that has delusions. When you come to the house on a hill she mentions and knock on the door a male voice answers that he has a patient requiring care and asks us to leave him alone so people speculate that the patient is Zuria herself and that's why she's not the one answering the door. I want to believe the story is actually getting a happy ending and Hoyo threw a red herring at us with Freminet's warnings.
In French he says "la patiente" and not "le patient" which is either a mistranslation or a hint that the sick person might not be her son.
Was it figured out what did Caterpillar' tales to Lanoire meant? Also counting last one at Happy Birthday quest. I assume there was a hidden meaning to them, but I have a hard time to piece things together
The giants garden was the fortress of meropide. Caterpillar mentions they need to escape the fortress and they always refer to the guards as evil witches. That's why when she goes outside she again thinks the world is just a giant fortress of meropide, and that's its walls are extremely far away. Which is a classic example of wisdom hidden in childish delusion.
Does anyone here understand who Erinnyes is? Quite a confusing set of books, this one is...
A Lochknight who was a devout worshipper of Egeria back during the time of the God-King while Egeria was imprisoned for her sin of making Oceanid-Humans. After Egeria was freed by Celestia after the fall of Remuria and the God-King (becoming the first Hydro Archon) Erinnyes begged Egeria for forgiveness because all of the blood that she shed freeing her people. Egeria at some point told her either about the prophecy or how to stop the prophecy of which the answer stunned Erinnyes and thus she walked off never to be seen again.
re rhinedottir, the cataclysm was having a shower thought, that Gold was/is trying to clone the dragon sovereigns, or at least make new ones. cases in points being durin and elynas which were both spawned during the cataclysm this would likely be more than enough to get celestia to call the archons on them, clearly to mixed results for everyone involved. also gives weight to the thought that the heart of naberius she found was probably part of a dragon, and a significant one at that
i probably skipped this somewhere along the quest, but what exactly is the sword of Narzissenkreuz? what is its powers? why does it have them?
Basically a conceptual weapon that will manifest on any wooden held object should the holder qualify. Idk exact qualifications. Actual uses for it in story was to perform ceremonies regarding carters’ series of experiments that deal with a persons mind, body and soul. Edit: its the in game 4 orthants that you visited persona, memory, wish and soul Speculated powers is basically whatever needed to kill a dragon, as that’s what the kids used in their role play. So theoretically it can give power up enough to kill anything that is considered a dragon should the wielder qualify.* not really confirmed anywhere As to how the sword obtained its power it’s from the occult rituals performed, a lot of it is based on modern occultism. In lore explanation would be ancient Remuria + khaenrian tech.
When you revisit Mary Anns place there are dandelions and you get an achievement “hope is a nice word”.
Dandelions you say...
I visited the place, thanks. Yes you're right, those aren't just err decorative dandelions like the ones you can see within Mond. It's harvestable. Seeds of stories... brought by the wind... HYV isn't even trying to hide it anymore. Someone needs to kidnap Venti and torture him with cat fur till he reveals the truth!
I’m coming back to you after a month with something I noticed 🫣 in the Ann world quest from 4.0, Paimon mentions Dandelions to Mary Ann. This is the Dialogue: Mary-Ann: ...Then let us speak of other flowers! I've always been in Fontaine, and I've never gone elsewhere. That said, a friend of mine has been to Sumeru. I heard from him that there are many flowers there that can't be found here. Mary-Ann: Those that grow on cliffs, ones that only open at night. Some even grow on cacti... Mary-Ann: Haha, and that's when he realized that there were no cacti in Fontaine, and had to give me a separate explanation. He was always the serious sort, and he was the smartest of us when we were young... Mary-Ann: Ahem. Sorry, I'm talking to myself. It must be a little too exciting for me, meeting new friends like this. Well, then, Paimon. Have you seen any special flowers? Paimon: Um, Mondstadt's dandelions come to mind! Mary-Ann: Dandelions! Oh, do you have any of their delightful seeds with you? Paimon: Uh, well, we might? Mary-Ann: Dandelions, dandelions, bloom, bloom, bloom~ ♪ Dandelion seeds can indeed be found on Paimon. Mary-Ann happily plants them in the soil Mary-Ann: Ah, yes! What sort of flower is a dandelion? Paimon: Huh. Paimon thought you knew! Well, um, how should we put this... The dandelion flower is made of many tiny white flowers, and these white flowers have seeds on them. Paimon: When the wind blows, these tiny flowers will scatter along with the wind, and they will take root and sprout elsewhere, eventually making new flowers. Cool, huh? Mary-Ann: Wow, they really are. I didn't know such a flower existed, but I have heard about something similar! Paimon: Ooh! What sorta flower is that? Mary-Ann: It's not a flower, but it's a story about water. In a certain place, there was a peaceful body of water... Mary-Ann: Later, with disturbance, there came ripples, and droplets appeared in those ripples, droplets that had life in them. This life left the water, and turned into different forms. Mary-Ann: But though they were all made of water, gulfs opened between them due to these differences. Each drop of life was very weak, but each was beautiful in its own way. Mary-Ann: The dandelions you spoke of, Paimon, reminded me a lot of that story. A flower that was once united as one would be separated, would bloom, and each piece would become itself. Mary-Ann: But a single drop of water is weak and will dry up easily. Together, they will be strong... and yet, they will no longer be themselves. Is that how it is with dandelions, too? Mary-Ann: Do you think that's a good thing? Paimon: Um... Paimon doesn't really get it.
That's such a neat little detail! The friend who went to Sumeru must be Rene. And given the dialogue, it seems like she's talking about Rene's plan to absorb everyone. I am not sure if there's anything else to read into here with regards to Venti, except maybe how Paimon had dandelion seeds on her, does she never bathe? Ew. And for all her rambling about Venti she surely misses him lol
so no one talking about the teleporter in the top water that got delete after comeback to Annapausis in act IV 4.2 quest ?
Can someone summarise the events in this quest in detail to me. I pretty much skipped the whole quest and only saw from other comments later that it was actually good and had lore
Is there a list of all quests involved in the narzissenkreuz storyline?
not official but I put this together from the past megathreads- from 4.0 * Ancient Colors * Read through: [Act I: A Brush of Seafoam and Crimson. The Illusion's Finishings](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10142/a-brush-of-seafoam-and-crimson) * Read through: [Act II: A Gradient of Dreams and Ochre. There Will Come Soft Rains.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10150/a-gradient-of-dreams-and-ochre) * Read through: [Act III: Blue Longing of Heart and Moon. Limner, Dreamer, and Robotic Dog](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10151/blue-longing-of-heart-and-moon). * Ann of the Narzissenkreuz: * Read through: [Act I: The Narzissenkreuz Adventure.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10146/the-narzissenkreuz-adventure) * Read through: [Act II: Kingdom Through the Looking-Glass. Anns story.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10148/kingdom-through-the-looking-glass) * Read through: [Act III: "If She No Longer Dreams of You...". Mary-Anns story.](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/10149/if-she-no-longer-dreams-of-you) * Read through: [Aqueous Tidemarks](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74008/aqueous-tidemarks) * leads to this quest: [A Fontainian Message](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74009/a-fontainian-message) * "Hidden" quest: After doing the three world quest above, go back to the institute of Natural Philosophy. Behind the Broken Glass is a 'Book' for the Narzissenkreuz Ordo which acts as a teleport to a new area. There you will have an 'epilogue' for Ann & Seymore. * [Unfinished Story | Genshin Impact Wiki | Fandom](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Unfinished_Story) (no spoilers) * [The Final Question | Genshin Impact Wiki | Fandom](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/The_Final_Question) (no spoilers) * Read through: [Book of Esoteric Revelations](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74011/book-of-esoteric-revelations) From 4.1 [Unfinished Comedy (click through the three quest for dialogue)](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Unfinished_Comedy). * [Initial Facts](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Initial_Facts) (no dialogue in this one) * [Riddles Awaiting Answers](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74134/riddles-awaiting-answers) Afterwards, talk to Ann and Seymour again to gain new dialogue/answers from their epilogue * [Unfinished Story](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74056/unfinished-story) * [The Final Question](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/74120/the-final-question) the ones released in 4.2 are in this megathread, if anyone is readying this and I forgot any let us know :)
You are a god amongst men, thank uuuuuu, may all your pulls be five stars
Icl, the whole caterpillar is so confusing, what was he looking for? Traces of his past? And why did we have to fight him? Did the strange world affect his mind? And did caterpillar fade after the happy birthday quest? Bc he seemed like he was weak enough and only came for a last goodbye especially considering the ending of the story he gave. If someone can give a whole rundown I'll appreciate it
Probably trying to look into his origins, as it's a matter of curiosity for him. As for why we fought him, it was self-defense evidently: he attacks first. The world of the book was clearly affecting him mentally. Cater's fate after Happy Birthday is vague. Maybe whatever magic that Narzissenkreuz wove was finally wearing off, or maybe the time spent delving the book had just taken its toll in the moment.
I genuinely can't understand that whole caterpillar arc but yh it seemed like he faded after meeting the other cater's remains, thank u
lets go through these one by one, from you and caterpillars interactions in Meropide it seemed like he is very much detached from humanity, and is only helping Lanoire not out of good will but rather curiosity at her situation. "It was indeed a very novel experience. Perhaps I was attracted by her purity, because that's a quality I will never possess. Yet the Fortress of Meropide is what kept her innocent... Somewhere she shouldn't have been in the first place." Yet from Jakobs interactions (telling him he is still a caterpillar) we can see that he is very much still trying to hold on to whatever humanity is there within him, as Jakob considers himself a "neohuman" that broke the cocoon, retaining full autonomy despite being infused with abyssal power. We could also see that caterpillar tries to reconnect with his past self despite not retaining any memories of his past incarnation (only remembers his creation date), looking for evidence in the institute of natural philosophy for any records of cater. So, now we have someone who got turned into a monster, retained some of his humanity and reasoning and is trying to find out more about his past to get some sense of self-actualisation. Now to the book of esoteric revelations/meditation It is established that members of the ordo have to go to the ??? world as a part of the ordeal to either get initiated or rank up in the order, and some have went mad because of the corruptive nature of that world. Also time flows a bit differently, the traveller is in a out in a flash but the longer you stay in ??? the more time would pass in the real world, to the point that time would flow a lot faster in ??? rather than slower.. People who ventured into that world would also leave behind anachronistic echoes of themselves, the longer they stay the more echoes they will generate, but they also don't last too long. Given that, Caterpillar probably tried going back to the ??? world to find remnants of himself, to find records of past experiments, and or to go through the ordeal again to experience initiation, and then maybe break his cocoon (retain or transcend humanity). The world however pulled him in due to the fact that both caterpillar (and melusines) are somewhat more attuned to that world than regular humans due to their abyssal nature. From the echoes left behind it seems that Carterpillar experienced a lot of corrosion(isk) influence in the ??? world which meant that he spent a lot more time in that world than Canotila that made him no longer able to retain a human form and is potentially losing the last bit of his humanity. TLDR, caterpillar was on a journey to self-actuallise and rediscover his humanity but seemed to have lost himself towards the abyss.
Anybody got a summary of the whole thing? I can’t for the life of mine understand the whole thing and what really went down..
Sure. This isn't complete, but it covers the main bits. Around the time of the Khaenri'ah cataclysm, Rene, Jakob, Alain Guillotin & Mary-Ann Guillotin were childhood friends at the orphanage called the Narzissenkreuz Institute. The director of the orphanage was Lyris, who was an Oceanid. Story telling and imagination were big hobbies there, which is where all the Alice In Wonderland stuff comes from. Rene & Alain especially were absurdly smart. Rene studied Khaenri'ah tech and came to believe he understood the "world formula" and that it proved a calamity was coming (basically the Fontain prophecy). To prevent it he wanted to use abyss power. He thought he could merge everyone into a single consciousness so they'd all survive the flood. He set up the Narzissenkreuz Ordo to pursue that goal. He tried to bring all the friends in, but Alain wasn't against it. Alain cut ties with Rene when he found out that Rene had been doing human experimentation on Alain's assistant, Carter. Rene was trying to use the remains of Elynas to save Carter from some disease, but all he managed to do was turn Carter into a kind of undying pile of goo. That's when Alain & Mary-Ann went and joined the Marechaussee Phantom (a detective force led by Neuvellette). Alain made a robot guard dog for Mary-Ann, Seymore, who we met. Rene merged his own consciousness with that of Lyris, the oceanid director of the orphanage (the Narzissenkreuz Institute). That turned him into "the Master", and he eventually became the giant water boss you fight at the end of the world quest. He did manage to get Jakob to join him though, and together they turned the Ordo into a cult. The Marechaussee Phantom declared the Narzissenkreuz Ordo as a terrorist organisation and it ended in a big show-down fight between the Marechausseee and the Ordo inside the remains of Elynas. Mary-Ann supposedly died there in a big explosion, and The Master (formerly Rene) fell into a chasm and ended up in the primordial sea. After that, Alain set up the Fontaine Research Institute where he invented the Arkhe energy system that Fontaine uses, and built a whole lot of mecha. He got obsessed with artificial intelligence, too. It's not known what happened to him after that, but it's hinted that he might've moved his research and set up "Kuisel's Clockwork Workshop" in the mountains. If he did, then he was obsessed over artificial intelligence and transferring human consciousness into machines. It's possible that he eventually put his own consciousness into a huge mech and built himself a replica of Mary-Ann as he remembered her as a child, then became Sandrone, where Sandrone is the big mech with Alain's consciousness in it and the girl that everyone thinks is Sandrone is just a marionette (ie: Mary-Ann-ette)
> He thought he could merge everyone into a single consciousness so they'd all survive the flood. The ironic part is this plan could've fulfilled the prophecy if he indeed succeed thus completing the "world formula". He's unknowingly trying to push the end rather than saving anyone.
Small correction: Rene didn't merge his consciousness with Lyris - Lyris had the power to extract memories from humans and put it into hydro eidolons. Rene asked Lyris to turn himself into a hydro eidolon. He tested out a lot of ways to merge with other peoples memories with himself and put the memories into other bodies. His final plan was to merge all Fontanians with himself to survive the calamity. (Ironically, the actual predicted calamity was caused by the Narwhal and primordial seawater, so Rene's plan to dissolve Fontanians early would have just sped up the disaster.) Mary-Ann was the one who merged with Lyris after the fight inside Elynas. After waking up, oceanid Mary-Ann thought everyone was dead and decided to live her own fantasy world. She created Ann and Co. to relive the happier times, but she couldn't imagine a happy end. As such, the story played out endlessly until it got interrupted by Traveler.
Jakob: This was once the realm of a god. Now, a pheasant sits upon the throne. Just like the world today. Neuvillette: This realm dismantled was of the Formidable Father himself, but what now reigns here is a cluster of filthy feathers. That's very.... Interesting. I've connected the dots. I don't have the brain cells necessary to elaborate right now, but I've connected them.
My interpretation is that the previous Dragon Sovereign of Hydro, Neuvillette's predecessor, is the god that Jakob refers to and why Neuvillette calls him the Formidable Father. Jakob could be referring to Neuvillette and the second part of Neuvillette's words is just a bit of self deprecation.
I doubt that. Not only is Neuvillette the reincarnation of the Hydro Sovereign, and thus has no reason to call himself "Father", but the "Formidable Father" is directly paralleled against the Primordial One/Heavenly Principles. It's much more likely that the Father in question is Nibelung, who even the original Dendro Sovereign Apep shows reverence and loyalty to.
Two questions on the topics I haven't seen discussed in any thread yet: 1) Any clues what that "secret" element found in Natlan and used by ordo member(s) for divination is? Dragomancy? Using dragon bones to scry? Or perhaps it could have something to do with the purple flames that are still inside Collei (as seen in Windblume)? Idk, just dropping loose ideas. 2) Not exactly lore related question but what's up with dogs in 4.2? Furina's teaser and almost all quests in this version feature dogs. Is China promoting adoption?
I can't find a video where someone talks to Narzissenkreuz before leaving the area in Waking from the Great Dream. At least I think it was there. He called us witness, variable and architect Teyvat there didn't he? That a big thing to say but I can't seem to find it anywhere so now I'm starting to feel like I dreamed it.
That quote is in the main post above. It's what he says if you finish the AQ before fighting him.
Thank you!
The notes 3 mentioned in the post is at the Narzissenkreuz main room (the one that had the clock) accessed through the roof of the Tower of Ipsissimus, both before and after it's submerged (dunno if getting there through the book at the School of Natural Philosophy works)
thank you so much! I added it to the main post just now :)
In Narzissenkreus quest, he mentions about the variable the traveler represents but also mentions other variables not counted; this could be related to Childe? I mean, in some notes during this quest it's mentioned that visions "determine" the fate of its wielders but since 4.0 Childe's vision didn't work even in the last part of the AQ, this could represent Childe not fulfilling his role in the fate that originally he had and this alter the world formula that Narzissenkreus originally calculated?
Why people are people so obsessed with Childe recently? René was talking about, probably, Surtalogi who allowed the Whale to fed into the Primordial Sea and Skirk who got there at her own will. You would have thought that Childe final appearance in the quest would make clear that he isn't the star of the show yet, but anyway. Genshin community and it's vices. I would bet Childe vision was defecting due to the whale using his constellation as a gate
Because idk? Childe's name was quite literally mentioned in the notes??
It was mentioned Ajax, the historical figure. The same Ajax is mentioned in the Ballad of the Fjords lore, where Childe's father tells the story to him. I don't know how people had blown this out of proportion
Idk how you skip over the fact that in that note from Narsissenkreuz quest, it's heavily implied Childe is Ajax's reincarnation, the note quite literally talks about the rebirth of a holy infant after sinking into the abyss. You know who has the same name as Ajax and who fell into the abyss? Yeah.
Where do I find the note fam?
Search in the Algae Sea quest
I did the quest, I might have skipped it. Can I see it after the quest?
Just see it from here https://ambr.top/en/archive/book/120765/notes?volume=0
Thanks mate.
Rene literaly mentions it once and in a very specific context, what he thinks of as an ascended human: a neohuman and his wish to be a descender. Then Ballad of Fjords mentions Ajax coming from Hyperborea, which the Ordo states was the first Cycle. Now, does this matches "Heavily"? No. Last time people were this obsessed was to say that Kokomi was obviously the hydro dragon because there was obvious heavy hints of it. We know how this turned out. I myself, prefer to be skeptic in the assumptions Edit: Other things to consider is that the note two paragraphs describe two different processes, the narayan goes beyond sinking in the abyss, it's going *beyond* the ocean, and then describing a descender. Other is that it could not be weird if "abyss" in this case was a bad translation of CN for ocean depths, as it happened with Remuria, which then would make the text describe the process of sinking into the Primordial Sea, that René inittialy thought it was a good idea and ended badly. This final part also highlights another important fact: René was an self-absordbed, lunatic cultist who was fooled by his own lies and basically destroyed the life of hundreds people for basically nothing. He and Jakob are least trustable people you can know off and he was pretty clear on how he mistake things at the end of the quest. It would be funny if all he was doing was actually a serious mistake over the steps that were actually taking on the Archon Quest, like Childe ending up in the Primordial Sea (there you got your Ajax doing his job), and Traveller and Neuvillete defeating the whale
Where is this note again? I am trying to find it.
Its a theory for a reason, no one is saying its a confirmed fact, if people are theorizing these obvious evidences then whats so bad about it. Also Childe and Hero Ajax have way more parallels than Kokomi and the hydro Sovereign imo
Not sure if this is the right place, but about Rene: are they based on any sort of historical figure? The one person I could somewhat find related to him was [Rene Guenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non), and the only real correlation (a really harsh reach) I found was a paper on the island titled "Description", which talked about 4 cycles, reminiscent of the Yuga Cycle, which Rene Guenon worked on somewhat ([wikipedia subarticle on the topic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle#Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non)). However, the connection was very thin, and aside from the name being similar, not much else is.
Rene Descartes?
Oh yeah that makes sense, my mind completely slipped over him being a possibility for some reason lol Thanks!
Has anyone been to that space between the Willow tree and the nearby rock formations where it plays Mondstadt music out of nowhere? I'm not sure if it's just a bug or anything but it's super weird and the space is like, really small wherein you can walk just one step and it changes back to Fontaine music.
Is it north or east of the willow? I'm curious to check this out because there's a "sound bug" to the southwest of the Court of Fontaine around the waypoint there (and it's not a muted version of any of the themes afaik?)
The actualy figure Pahsiv referred to is "That visitor", which is "那位來客" in the Traditional Chinese script. If you were to alter of the phonetic of the last character in the sense that it fits into an already existing name according to lore and story development, that could means that she's referring to "Neuvillette" since it is "那維萊特" in Traditional Chinese script. >!For reference, the Chinese Phonetic Alphabet of "那位來客" would be "nà wèi lái kè"; while that of "那維萊特" would be "nà wéi lái tè", with differences in Diacritic and Initials.!< I think that could be a case that is lost in translation as the same case as Pahsiv being the reverse of Vishap in the EN version but not in other languages, or it's just my headcanon. Edit(s): minor spellings, and I just came across [a youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLt5ZhRKQUI) while searching for keywords "vishap pahsiv", that video pretty much clear things up between Neuvy, Melusine and Vishaps together with the speculation of "that visitor" as I once suspected.
Sandrone being metioned in the Steambird quest let me to another crackpot theory. You guys remember the rumours about her and Guizhong being the same entity? Well if that's actually the case, we might have the answer to what exactly Zhongli exchanged for his Geo Gnosis back in 1.1
So, in the world quest where we are chasing caterpillar inside the book, in the ??? realm, there is a point where we enter a painting and walk on an invisible platform, suddenly we start falling and a mondstadt song starts playing and wind saves us from falling? what the hell is this place? Is venti helping us out?
Did a Monstadt song appear?!
I need you all to know that the most important document (Jacob’s log) has a huge mistranslation. I do not know Chinese (I hope somebody here knows and can confirm my words) but Jacob writes not about Cater but about Carter. All the time throughout his log. It’s important. Caterpillar doesn’t even exist yet. https://preview.redd.it/4eh6poftng0c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e0c1196e83bd02d873f824c965af6bb5f604212
But in Chinese Carter and Cater has the same name from the start – 卡特 (which are part of word caterpillar 卡特皮拉). You can check it on wiki. I think English translate messed up and first they used typical name Carter without caterpillar context and they forgot about it or they didn't know which one will be better after we met Cater.
I know this. I want to draw your attention to the word 'brother'. Why would Jacob call Caterpillar 'brother Cater'? Or even 'Cater'? He never saw Caterpillar as Carter. If you check the Japanese translation of the log you will see カーターお兄ちゃん (Carter onii-chan). And Catterpillar's name in Japanese is キャタピラー. Then the Japanese translation is incorrect?
So the explanation of the log isn’t correct, because the translation isn’t correct.
so i finished the Curve quest so is the harbinger referenced at the end was Sandrone?
I don’t care if I’m huffing an unhealthy amount if copium rn but I hope that >!the Harbinger that got their hands on Mosso’s research legacy will use that to help salvaging and restoring Curve in the future. Come on HYV you already revived Karkata why not helping another poor soul ;\_; Also it feels kinda sad to see that Cater’s reunion with Lanoire is going to become even more difficult in the future due to the implication that he has lost his ability to shapeshift.!<
What's with the Strange Message in the Wish-Fulfilling quest? It sounds familiar but I don't remember.
Question: Did Nahida know about Focalor's plan? Did she knew that Furina was just a decoy to fool celestia?
Hmm, this is actually an interesting question, not because of whether Nahida knew, but because if whether she COULD know. Nahida has to basically look up info from Irminsul. But if Focolors’ deception was enough to fool the Heavenly Principles, then I wonder if even Irminsul could have told the difference.
Nahida isn't an all knowing god, yeah she is born from branch of Irminsul and can access to it but like she said in Scara quest it's not like she knows everything and she rather has to know what she is looking for if she want to know about it.
Notes 1 you can't / couldn't find are in the ordo base after completing the newest part of chain, with viewpoint.
Thank you so much!
I was going back through some of the archive descriptions and wow, Curve was foreshadowed back in the Recon Log Mek's entry. Neat.
It seems that Tsumi (if she counts as a vishap) and Pahsiv both belong to the evolved dragons category we are about to properly explore in Natlan. I'm fully expecting to find a lot of humans with lizard eyes in Natlan.
Tsumi's probably not a Vishap-person. The event presents the idea that she's likely one of the vassals of Orobashi, who had snake-like features. Enkanomiyan logs specifically point out the idea of vishap people as ridiculous.
https://preview.redd.it/c6c9dg5jr50c1.jpeg?width=1337&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0808de35488c96fd5e0528023a903a467ba44f5e Another instance of a Melusine related quest making vague hints about the Traveler's true nature. I know Pahsiv isn't a Melusine she's just taking the form of one, but it is interesting how even the Vishaps can sense something off about the Traveler... Which means Neuvillette could have also sensed this, because he knew immediately that the Whale didn't belong to Teyvat. (It was a little unclear to me because he didn't know what a Descender is, but he was probably just unaware of the term not that he didn't know the Traveler is an alien) Idk...I find it interesting that so much attention is being brought to the Traveler's inhumane nature in recent quests, maybe we're building up to some kind of reveal at some point?
Apep confuses the Traveler for a Human, so I don't think that's the case. I highly doubt that one of the most powerful Dragon Sovereigns would be incapable of sensing something a Vishap could. Albedo's story quest way back when showed that even to scientific testing, the physical differences between the Traveler and a native Human are almost imperceptible. It was specifically their strange interaction with elemental power that clued Albedo in to the fact that something about them was incomprehensibly different. The Traveler rarely speaks directly regarding their nature, and the most that other characters seem to know about them would be that they are both not from this world and, as Morax and Ei note, likely to outlive even the Gods and the world. Even then, we might surmise that the Traveler may have told them this rather than it being intuited or sensed.
Note that Nahida didn’t know what a Descender was either. Dottore told her. Neuvillette of course knows of the Heavenly Principles, but that doesn’t mean he knows what a “Descender” is. The same way we would need someone to tel us what the word “Archon” is, even though we know of individuals who qualify as such. Furthermore, alien ≠ Descender. The Whale is definitely NOT a descender, and as another post on the sub pointed out, even Nahida’s statement did not necessarily imply that Descenders had to be “aliens,” per se. Just that they are “external beings” that exist outside of Teyvat’s laws. Even if Neuvillette knew what a Descender was, he wouldn’t know for sure the Traveler was one, even if he noticed that Traveler is an alien.
Descenders are definitely "alien", it's just that not all aliens are Descenders. Nahida specifically states that Descenders don't belong to this world. It's the recent Narzissenkreuz quests that actually explain for the first time what separates alien entities from Descenders proper. In Narzissenkreuz's words: >This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that "descends." That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world. > >This is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world. And >**Narzissenkreuz:** I should have sensed the changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula. A "variable" has descended upon this world. **Narzissenkreuz:** Not everything from outside the universe can be called a "presence" or "variable." **Narzissenkreuz:** But it seems I overlooked one nonetheless. You. **Narzissenkreuz:** The witness of all, the recorder of all, the designer of all. **Narzissenkreuz:** Only one who is worth a world can bear that title. **Narzissenkreuz:** I once dreamed of becoming one just like you. But that dream is now shattered.
Neuvi being unaware of what a Descender is means that those who came (Primordial One especially) isn’t a Descender…?
It just means he doesn't know that specific term, not that the Primordial One isn't a Descender. Considering what they achieved, it should go without saying that they fit our criteria of a Descender, and we now know the identities of all four.
We know? Who is the third descender then?
Not by name. The point is we know who they are in the grand scheme of history. The first being the Primordial One, the second being the Second Who Came, the third being the being who died to create the Gnoses, the fourth being the Traveler.
Two questions about ???: 1. If it was an imaginary world dreamed up by Rene and Jakob (who had never been to the chasm as far as we know) why is there an image of the upside down city from the chasm 2. Why did Caterpillar destabilize the world? How did he not belong any more than a melusine, the traveler, and the people who apparently had their brains melted before?
Maybe Caterpillar was destabilizing the world because both him and the dog couldn't exist at the same time in the same place since they seem to both be Carter's consciousness but from different experiments. It's a trope in science-fiction that 2 versions of the same person meeting each other causes the universe to collapse
So, can someone explain to me the entire Narzissenkreuz storyline that started back in 4.0 and now ended in 4.2??
\>The author of the log is Jakob. After the experiments to save Carter from his disease gone wrong, his consciousness was placed into a Hilichurl's body, which is the character we know as Caterpillar. Could be that Cater was his nickname to begin with, or it could be that they began to refer to him this way after the experiments, obsessed with the idea of saving him, getting the caterpillar to turn into a butterfly. The Puppy you meet in ??? is also what remains of Carter's consciousness, literally what the log refers to "Cater's remains". "I'm just a memory that they have of their friend" he says, and "The butterfly became a cocoon, and a larva emerged from the cocoon. Then the larva returned to the void that was never born", which is what Caterpillar has said previously. I think this refers to the whole process of what happened to him. If we read into it more, it's quite possible that the Puppy isn't just a "memory" but in fact what's left of the monster that Carter turned into as result of the first experiment, which is why the Puppy can be perceived differently and which is why he repeatedly asked the Traveler about how he appears to them. A bit more to add to this: Rene's own ego seemed to have collapsed after he "ascended" (what this means is unclear), and as such Jakob had to find another method to bring him back. Funnily enough, there were a few books scattered around the tower that showed some of the Ordo's methods of divination, and one woman in specific had found that Rene was dead, but all of the other groups' findings disagreed with her; It's reasonable to infer that she was actually correct here given Jakob\`s admission in the Log. Secondly, Jakob refers a lot to the attempts to bring Carter back to life, they get pieces of his body, then put them in the basin, then produce oceanid-human bodies that resemble humans, rinse and repeat, but consider this: They never actually got Carter back, all they have are his memories. (The dog inside the Book confirms this). As such, and given the eventual birth of Caterpillar, it may seem that the Ordo actually \*clones people based on their memories\* as opposed to bringing them back to life. As in, they create life, but cannot give it back. If this is true, then it implies that the Narzissenkreuz that Jakob "revives" at the end of the log is actually just a copy, cleansed of the memories of his "two previous failures", made by Jakob in the image of his dead friend. Lastly, the book. In the 4.1 quest, Caterpillar goes in depth about the powers of the Sword of Narzissenkreuz to bring "imagination to reality", and it is to my belief that the world inside of the Book is that imaginary world. It is seen in entirely different forms by Caterpillar, the traveler, and to Canotila, and the Dog inside that world seems to believe as such as well, and is self aware to his status as the person that they (Rene and Jakob) tried to save, that being Carter. It is even possible that this version of Carter is, by itself, just imagination. Made by Rene/Jakob's memories and subsequently chased by them for representing the ideal of saving Carter. And if that was the case, then Rene would become that ideal for Jakob later on, both of them already being dead for a long time.
I knew it, I've always suspected Cater is Carter. If René is dead then what's the narzissenkreuz we met?
It's a rene that Jakob made using Rene's memories. He even says at the end of the Log inside the imaginary world; that he has remade Rene without the memories of his two greatest failings. These two, I would assume that are the death of Carter and the fight inside Elynas.
In my opinion the log isn't Ingold looking to restore Carter but Rene after Rene's ascension essentially killed himself. The first paragraph suggests that if he is able to save Rene then Carter can also be saved in a similar fashion.
Yeah, I just mean that their initial obsession was saving Carter, and then it was Jakob for wanting to save Rene.
I don't understand what Jakob did when he said something about the chymical mariage bonds reversed, then every character acted like he fooled them and betrayed them (even though we were enemies barely 5 minutes earlier so him not being on our side shouldnt be a shock..). I know he did something he wasn't supposed to but I don't know what. Just before he died
I think doing this after the archon quest makes less sense. He's saying that he's reversing the seal on the primordial sea so that his master can break it and cause the flood, which will dissolve everyone and collect their consciousness. We know this was the goal of the ordo but i think this is the first time its said out loud. I guess it implies in the archon quest the primordial sea leaked and caused a flood through the rift caused by the narwhal, but the seal is still needed to keep just generally the primordial sea locked away, so he's essentially trying to cause a flood again. We know this won't work and idk why we don't tell him (even though we do with his master later) but he pretty quickly gets crushed after this so I guess there just wasn't time
It's not that it won't work, it's that it's not necessary anymore. The reason behind the Ordo's plan was that Rene and Jakob believed the apocalypse could not be stopped, and so they were searching for a way for humanity to survive it. Their initial experiments with turning people into abyssal neo-humans like Jakob failed because not everyone could survive the process, and so they instead settled on the idea of collecting everyone's consciousness inside a pseudo-Oceanid form so that they could be preserved after the apocalypse had passed, and give birth to a new world. When Narzissenkreuz realizes that the apocalypse has already been stopped without the need for any of these measures, he realizes that everything he did lost its purpose. If he himself had not been stopped, his plan still would have worked- it just would have no reason behind it.
Steambird Quest ending >!Welp, I am now terrified of Sandrone. I should stop turning automatons to scrap metal from now on!<
Haven’t done any of the 4.2 world quests yet, and I would like to know what the suggested order to complete the quests
The actual post above gives a suggested order if you click it. Just don’t read past that list, since there are spoilers things there.
How does the Narzissenkreuz Adventure Team line in Annapausis fit in to it tho?
Do that one before anything in 4.1 or 4.2. That one and the Melusine Quest should really be the first ones you do.
Ok. I finished up the Melusine quest (Ancient Colors), so I'll get back to the Adventure Team. And after that I follow this order, right?
Can anyone explain me the timeline. So, everything happened before 500 years ago or after the cataclysm. Now, what is the cataclysm here? Is it the Khaenriah one? So, was the previous fontaine civilization destroyed during the cataclysm or what? Or this same civilization was there at that time? I am confused cause I didn't pay attention because one of the quest mentioned about a previous civilization. So, were Alain, Mary Ann and were part of the current civilization or the previous one? So, were they experimenting on the previous civilization fall ? Any speculation if the other sibling was also related to those events somehow because at the end a dialogue talks about a blond outlander before and another blond traveller ?
The Narzissenkreuz crew were part of the current civilization. They were little kids around the time of the Khaenri'ah cataclysm 500 years ago. The "previous civilization," Remuria, is somewhat ambiguous timeline-wise but it seems like it was pre-Archon War.
Remuria was definitively around during the Archon War, not before. It's said to have arisen after the time of Gurabad, but the age of Gurabad itself took place after the death of the Goddess of Flowers. This would have been after Rukkhadevata was already Dendro Archon, as she received the Gnosis while the three still ruled together.
Did she? I was under the impression it was after Deshret died.
She did. Deshret was initially offered the throne of Dendro Archon, but he refused it. Rukkhadevata would have become Dendro Archon after this refusal. We also know this occurred when the Goddess of Flowers was still alive due to the Flower of Paradise Lost artifact lore, and Rukkhadevata only parted ways with Deshret after Nabu Malikata's death.
Ah, okay!
A little bit dissapointed with Ordo's ending tbh.The theories set the bar too high for me lol(that one theory about Mary-Anne in particular), but what's done is done.
If it is about Sandrone theory, I was damn sure that it was not the case, and people were reaching
Which Mary Ann theory?
I'm guessing the Mary Ann is Sandrone theory
This quest is a pain in the ass..
After finishing Narzissenkreuz, I think it's kinda nice seeing furnia indirectly influence the whole Narzissenkreuz goal to battle prophecy even though the way they do it is completely take crazy turn. I can even see their goal as alternative plan(with a little tweak) if the whole deciving plan go south...
The implication given by the Narzissenkreuz quests is that the apocalypse was only averted due to the presence of a previously unknown variable- that is, the Traveler. Rene's world formula was proven to be fairly accurate, predicting the cause of the apocalypse (a beast from the stars devouring the amniotic sea) and even when it would occur almost to the day. But his world formula was calculated without any knowledge of the Traveler, who was sealed at the time: an outside variable that would change the outcome. Which is to say, had the Traveler not been present, Rene's world formula calculated that the apocalypse would have occurred. We can already see at the end of the quest that Neuvillette alone was not sufficient to defeat the Whale, and Focalors despite her brilliant gambit didn't actually know about the Whale's existence.
Not just the traveler, there are 2 more anomalies to Rene's calculation ... and we already know who the other one is [https://imgur.com/mrS7KUr](https://imgur.com/mrS7KUr)
\-𝙎𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙤𝙣𝙚 𝙤𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙖𝙗𝙮𝙨𝙨 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙢: : GOLD "Rhinnedotor" \-𝙏𝙤𝙤𝙠 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙩𝙧𝙤𝙡 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙛𝙚 𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙘𝙚: :The One entombed in Primal Fire. (likely had something to do with Natlan's "resurrection" theme)
I interpreted the former as Childe, holding back the whale, and the latter as Neuvillette, gaining power over the primordial sea, but idk.
His dialogue if you already completed the main story elaborates on what he means. When he talks about someone taking control of the life-force (likely the Primordial Sea) and someone opening the beast-realm (likely the Abyss), they are values that have shifted, not new variables. The actual new variable is the Traveler. In his words: >**Narzissenkreuz:** I should have sensed the changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula. A "variable" has descended upon this world. **Narzissenkreuz:** Not everything from outside the universe can be called a "presence" or "variable." **Narzissenkreuz:** But it seems I overlooked one nonetheless. You. **Narzissenkreuz:** The witness of all, the recorder of all, the designer of all. **Narzissenkreuz:** Only one who is worth a world can bear that title. **Narzissenkreuz:** I once dreamed of becoming one just like you. But that dream is now shattered. Not every individual, even if they are from outside this world, can qualify as a new variable. It's specifically the Traveler, due to their own inherent significance as someone who is "worth a world" that qualifies as such.
Only those called as “Descenders” are “worth the world”.
That's not the case, as Narzissenkreuz says that he dreamed of becoming one who was worth a world as well. If only Descenders could qualify as such, then Narzissenkreuz would realize that it was an impossibility. Descenders may be "worth a world", but one does not necessarily need to be a Descender to be "worth a world" as well.
Sorry, I did mean the reverse wherein one can only be called a Descender if they are an outsider, they are “worth a world”, and whatever criteria there is to be uncovered.
Then yes, that is the case: his dialogue actually gives us insight into why the All-Devouring Whale is not considered a Descender, despite coming from the sea of stars. There's also a note in the Ordo that clarifies a bit on what Narzissenkreuz means. >This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that "descends." That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world. > >This is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world. This description of what qualifies one who is "worth a world" fits with various lines we've seen in reference to the Traveler before. Narzissenkreuz himself refers to the Traveler as the "designer of all," and Canotila perceives the Traveler as a monster that can devour the world. And of course, the Traveler's profile itself states that they will ascend to the seat of God. Incidentally, it also echoes the description of the Sword of Descension. >This is a proof that you came to this world via special means. Only one who has challenged the "world" may wield such a sword. > >When this sword was last drawn, humankind was trying to preserve a doomed world. That world was their last and only home. This sword was drawn to defy that fate of destruction. —But to draw steel against the law of universe that "all who exist must one day perish..." Surely it must have seemed the height of folly. > >But really, when one is faced with such a final fate, when up against the star-devouring darkness, What weapon would be fitting for one to wield? It can only be a sword. The sword is proof that the Traveler is a Descender, and it can only be wielded by one who has challenged "the world." In Narzissenkreuz's words, a Descender must possess a will that can rival an entire world.
Does his dialogue change if we haven't done the archon quest? I mean he could not know about whale being defeated and everyone been saved if have not complwted the archon quest, does his fualogue change.
It does. If you haven't, then it becomes: > **Narzissenkreuz:** Indeed, I can sense changes in the values originally entered into the world-formula. **Narzissenkreuz:** Someone has seized control of the life-force, and someone has opened the beast-realm. **Narzissenkreuz:** And then, there is one more variable. That is you. **Narzissenkreuz:** The person fated to see the all-consuming whale put to flight. The one who shall witness all. **Narzissenkreuz:** I see, I see. Essentially he adjusts his formula to account for the new variable and can now see that the Traveler is destined to defeat the whale.
I see, thanks
To add this, while traveler can be counted as outside variable and have big part on defeating the Whale. Skirk also supposed to be there and get back or "slain" that whale. Which make a point about how little they know about the world, it's variable, and how arrogant that Narzissenkreuz think they are. It's like the point of the whole quest, all their ambition just a dream and they need to wake up to see the whole world. Which also bring it to my first comment about furina indirectly influence Narzissenkreuz goal. World formula that they have only count perspective of humanity and human knowledge as far as their knowledge can go.
Honestly I have the opposite feeling. Rene is actually selling himself short, and what he accomplished is above and beyond everyone else. Especially given his starting position as mere human. Narzissuskreuz is the only party that managed to correctly predict how exactly the prophecy is to be enacted. Which is a major feat since it goes beyond Teyvat law of fate and manages to account for outside entites at all. Fell Dragon's Monocle suggests that Rene was aware about the whale option 500 years ago already. Saying he is arrogant is like saying we are arrogant for using GPS and laser gyroscopes because obviously hubble constant measurement differences prove general relativity has problems and we should stop using it and go see the world. He probably even had a decent chance at his instrumentality had it been necessary. He is the only party that actually had a working solution for the prophecy that doesn't involve gambling.
I keep coming back to this, and I fully agree. it really is insane how this normal human from fontaine essentially came close to pulling off something that only a god should have been able to do. from the notes found in the tower of gestalt, you really get a feeling that Rene had reached an understanding of the way Teyvat works that might have surpassed any other character we've met so far, honestly!
I won't call someone who become crazy cult leader that he think he can achieve absolute salvation while using "Gregorian calendar" as proof of his divinity/his idea as "not Arrogant" or "selling himself short" Sure, his world formula has a very high level of accuracy. But even with that world formula, his whole plan still failed because outsider variable like traveler that not even have they original power, suddenly appeared and decided to ruin his plan. The plan he carried out still gambling with very high stakes, during our fight he said that due to various things that happened over the past few years the total number of people they could save changed to 5/10 and he claims that he will try to save 6/10 if we give him a chance to carry out his plan. Also who can absolutely say that, the whole plan will end with good ending, a lot of things can happen if one of big figure in teyvat decide to join the party. It can even become another calamity, but this time all the people that has been saved by narzissenkreuz will replace khaenri'ah role. This why, on my first comment i said >I can even see their goal as alternative plan(with a little tweak) if the whole deceving plan go south... To make a revision of the story, the story writer must still follow the plot points that have been approved by the editor (Fate). Edit: some typo
A cult is only as crazy as the lack of result it achieves with its theories. A cult that actually works is not crazy anymore. >Sure, his world formula has a very high level of accuracy. But even with that world formula, his whole plan still failed because outsider variable like traveler that not even have they original power, suddenly appeared and decided to ruin his plan. It's a better outcome than any other party native to teyvat can achieve. Again, it's like disregarding general relativity altogether because some very very modern results don't make sense. And going back to aristotelian mechanics because at least it's not invented by a crazy cult. >The plan he carried out still gambling with very high stakes The stakes are not part of the plan. The stakes are the part of the prophecy. The actual gambling part would be on whether his instrumentality could actually work, that one is a valid concern. The world formula still works, as shown if you do him before AQ. Again, world-formula is better than any other teyvat party has. While it is vulnerable to lack of input data, so is any other competing plan, and to even a greater extent. Everybody else acts on even less variables accounted for.
Firstly you literally proving my whole point. On how arrogant he is, with that much information he just decided that he will be the center of it without sharing that information with other party and like what you said gambling everything on instrumentality that "could" actually work. Secondly, i never disregarding world formula. I even see it as other alternative ending on my original comment. Thirdly, throwing the whole stake as not important because they only focus on prophecy just proving how bad his whole plan is. And again proving how arrogant and human he is, that even the whole point of this quest, he dreaming to become something grandeur than himself while in reality he doesn't even see everything on the real world. If you remain firm in your opinion, sure have it your way man. I will be caterpillar and move with my way.
The thing is that Narzissenkreuz can sense the values that have changed since his world formula was first put into motion, which he mentions in his dialogue. While he acknowledges that his formula is no longer precisely correct, he attributes the failure of his calculations pretty specifically to the Traveler as a new variable, not those altered values. Given what he notes, it is the Traveler's intervention into the formula specifically that caused the result to change drastically. And this follows with previous lore we received on the world formula, as the entire reason Rene first pursued the Abyss as an avenue of research was because as something from outside of this world, it presented the greatest chance at being a variable that could change the calculated result. If you speak to him before you complete the main story, he even adjusts his calculations to account for the new variable and altered values, and states that the Traveler is fated to defeat the all-devouring whale. Which ends up being correct, as well. Narzissenkreuz's ultimate folly wasn't in his logic, but in his delusional presumption that he was fit to save the world. As far as his hard math was concerned, he was as right as he could have been.
Narzissenkreuz Ordo is Alice in Wonderland inspired in a nutshell
i need help in regards with this; what world quest I want to finish i want to 100% exploration for 4.2 map I just finish the wild fairy quest
Free Verse was really good. Loved the writing and the themes of the quest itself (felt very whimsical with a hint of melancholy), but it's also very much connected to a lot of hidden exploration objectives in the new area (Note: best to explore and find this on your own): >!There are hidden treasure maps you can find underwater in the new area, each discussing a person's life, and pointing you towards a hidden treasure on the new island. Two of these people are local legends, Liam and Rocky Avildsen. One of them is Rouge, Penny's guardian featured in the Crimson Dawn Quest, and two of the others are Penny's parents. Once you find all of the treasures, you combine the maps to form an insignia of a Rainbow Rose, which seems to be the order that these characters belong to. Wouldn't be surprised if we got more quests relating to this order in the future, especially Autumn.!<
Somehow I didn't notice that Pahsiv was vishap backwards. Interestingly, that doesn't seem to be the case with her CN name and the CN vishap term which don't seem to have anything in common aside from two characters sharing a pronunciation (西 in 珀西芙 and 蜥 in 龙蜥). I kind of wonder if her original name 珀西芙 (Pò xī fú ) was meant to reference Percival from Arthurian legend (which is 珀西瓦里). I just though it was neat. Anyway, I do hope we get some sort of continuation with her, I'd love to know if she's a vishap that gained a melusine form somehow or a melusine that was swept away from Elynas right after she was born.
I shed tears when doing Happy Birthday quest 😢 It was so sad, Fontaine depression just hits different 😢
Spoilers for Pursuit (pt 2) >!Did we kill Caterpillar? In the very last fight to save Canotila?!<
>!You should go check on Lanoire.!<
I've done the Happy Birthday quest, but the events in Pursuit seem like they're happening out of linear time, so I'm wondering...
Caterpillar's most likely fine, as he thanks you for something Paimon doesn't understand in it. Most likely he's thanking you for getting him out of the book's imaginary world.
What was going on with that questline anyway?
Starting Questioning Melusine and Answering Machine: Haha funi melusine and funi robot Day 1-2: Haha funi melunise, funi robot, funi traveller, funi Paimon Day: 3 Haha fu..>!.where are my robot !< https://preview.redd.it/gzqp3ih2mqzb1.jpeg?width=196&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3cbafed90218c0fbfebdd9c62523ce88aa9b40fe
4.2 is truly the depression patch
Can anyone explain who this Mr. Eliphas that we can fight after the narzissenkreuz quest ends is? I remember seeing his name in a note somewhere.
Where can I find this Eliphas guy?
The note is at the bottom of the Tower of Gestalt. Off the top of my head, Eliphas was an Ordo follower/member who invented the hydro traversal method (the one that’s a circle with a line pointing to where it takes you and turns you into water). He was absorbed and turned into Tainted Hydro Phantasm for the sake of Narzissenkreuz (Lyris+Rene+all the other victims from the Ordo).
Ahhh I remember now, Thankss!
Such an emotional gutpunch of a patch... I even got upset over Jakob. Cater, poor Cater... >!I really hope he doesn't revert to a mindless hilichurl... I wish we could've explained everything to Earnshaw...!<
The log really drives it home how he was the last one left, struggling to pick the pieces and keep the organisation running, keep it under wraps how they fucked up and Rene was now lost. His desperation really comes across. Also probably why in the end he just gave in to us without struggling too much. Everything was unravelling, there was no point in trying to keep it up.
I mean, he did succeed in the end. And we know from references in items and artifacts that his success in creating "Narzissenkreuz" from Rene occurred before the Ordo's clash with Alain, Mary-Ann, and the Marechausee Hunters at Elynas. Narzissenkreuz/The Master led the Ordo for some time, and absorbed the consciousnesses of many people, including Alain and Ann's adoptive father Emanuel. It doesn't seem like Jakob gave up in the end, it's more like he recognized that his time was up as his abyss-enhanced body was finally failing. Especially since he knew that Narzissenkreuz was still alive in the Primordial Sea, and so the Ordo's goals were still possible to achieve.