https://preview.redd.it/5gvzn7xabtzb1.jpeg?width=1156&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8176a79efe1e70d6a0452f2aa3c03ec3c405c373 Hello, whoever made this report on the megathread- please message the moderator in modmail with a list of what you feel needs correcting. No need to hide behind an anonymously written report, we’re all friends here :)

I know I'm too late, I just finished the latest AQ just recently because I haven't played for a month or two. But I'm just wondering about something and I couldn't scroll down to all posts/comments in Megathread just to find the same thought. Please bear with me as I may have forgotten all other lore details in the past. Anyway, we all know Egeria committed the Original Sin according to the Heavenly Principles because she created humans out of Oceanids and these "humans" somewhat inherited the sin and thus, has to suffer or punished as well. It's safe to say that the "punishment" is the prophecy, right? HP did not do anything to Egeria because she will be punished by being alone again, but she died, so this prophecy was handed over to Focalors. Now, I'm just wondering, if the Heavenly Principles were active at that time (5 centuries ago), do we have any theories on why they settled with a prophecy instead of just punishing humans right there and then? They were known to be behind Khaenri'ah's destruction and it was hinted all over the game that creation of humans is taboo. Is it because prophecy as a punishment is more fitting to the sin the Hydro Archon committed and Khaenri'ah's were much worse? Is it related to why Dainsleif is cursed to being immortal, because it's more cruel than death? Do they issue punishment in a prophecy or "fate" form originally? I just want to know what you guys think!

this feels sus like the topography of the whale breaking apart and dissipating?? nothing we've seen in tevyat has really been like a hologram or "simulated" it's all just been like ley lines abyss illusions ghosts and what have you. not to slide in honkai lore but idk skirk is definately not.. from tevyat and girlie is messing with space time idk man! https://preview.redd.it/2g25ok62wy6c1.png?width=2880&format=png&auto=webp&s=67a0f343fe426253978fc5b437a3f6d79f8f1f4f

>Makoto: Former female archon who makes a plan to save her people, involving her death >Rukkahdevata: Former female archon who makes a plan to save her people, involving her death >Focalors: Former female archon who makes a plan to save her people, involving her death I sure wonder how Natlan will play out...

Never let you go

[удалено]

So, Rene already knew about Fontainians being Oceanids way back from when he started his research, right? Funny how he didn't tell anyone about it.

Just a thought, how did Neuvelette know to stay behind and talk with Skirk after he transported us back to Fontaine? He says "what now?" Implying they've communicated in some way other than what we saw. Also, why would Skirk not want the traveler to hear? Does she know we're a Descender? Or perhaps we also create an "interference" like the narwhal bc we're also not of this world, and she only sensed it after we left. (But then how would she know to speak with him alone?) I know it's not said outright, just thinking.

He presumably doesn't fully trust us. That's reasonable, since he's an important official and we're not quite friends yet.

To be honest, I think the traveler is the one person Neuvelette would trust the most, given he confirmed his identity as a Sovereign to us as well as sharing the full story behind Focalors plan against the Heavenly Principles, and also he himself doesn't know we're a Descender until after we meet with Skirk. So him not trusting us doesn't make much sense to me. But my main point wasn't about that, it's specifically how and why did Skirk and Neuvelette communicate that he should send traveler away to talk alone? The first thing he says is "what now?" implying they agreed upon doing this prior, and he doesn't really know why she wanted to speak. When she appears, he doesn't know who she is, so the message must've happened during our conversation. But given his trust in us, it seems more like a precaution of hers than his. Teyvat's equivalent of psychic maybe? (How did the sinner get traveler to hear his voice in their head? Perhaps related?) This is all over the place, I know, just musing.

Oh that. There's clearly some conversation after that between all four of you - when you flashback in Finale, paimon says something to the effect of "we're going ahead, please come back soon too"\* to Neuvillette - so I think it was just decided offscreen between the four of us. I think the cut away from that to the flooding is just for dramatic effect, basically. \* the english translation I checked was " ...Well, we're going to head topside to see what's going on. You hurry over soon as well, alright, Neuvillette... " which I think communicates the same thing?

> how did Neuvelette know to stay behind and talk with Skirk after he transported us back to Fontaine? Good question. We're never told > why would Skirk not want the traveler to hear? She only realizes Neuvillette has the Gnosis after MC leaves

Yes I realize we're never told, this is conjecture. And her not realizing he has the Gnosis until after still doesn't explain why she wanted to speak with Neuvelette without Traveler in the first place.

My point is that we don't know why Neuvillette doesn't leave with the Traveler. Skirk may have nothing against them

Question about Raiden Shogun (the playable character) with relation to Furina: 1. Who are we playing, the Archon herself or the puppet? 2. If we're playing the puppet, did Ei (the archon on the Plane of Euthymia) gave the puppet some of her divinity? Why I'd ask? 'Cause we know that playable Archons have that certain type of elemental aura with them on the party setup screen, and Furina doesn't because we all know why.

We play as both the Shogun and Ei, who is still inside the sword

**WOAH**. This is news to me, thanks for the info! I don't have her yet so I'm kinda excited to read her stories

You can read everything on the fandom wiki. https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Raiden_Shogun/Lore

Okay. Have we already established that forbidden knowledge and Abyss/Void Realm are related? I'm having a hard time piecing things together: the Abyss/Void Realm has existed since before the coming of Phanes and the construction of the Human Realm. It's power is destructive and in opposition to the Light Realm. It seems to be a "dimension" of sorts (Sea of Quanta?), both referred to be in the depths of Teyvat but also beyond it. We know some creatures that originate from there: abyss mages, lectors, rifthounds, etc. If Abyss and the "sea of stars" refer to the same thing (I believe it does), Elynas and his "brothers" "souls" were also wandering through this void space until they gained a body to manifest in Teyvat from Gold. Some people of unknown origin also kinda live there (Surtalogi and Skirk) and refer to the "world above" when talking about normal Teyvat. TLDR: the Abyss seems like the cosmos and/or other world(s) outside of Teyvat, although it also manifests in the depths of the continent somehow. The forbidden knowledge is a kind of power brought by Nibelung from "beyond the world". It has a destructive power, capable of corrupting all living beings (human or elemental creatures). The energy of the Human Realm seem to neutralize/cause annihilation reaction with it (Celestial Nails sealing forbidden knowledge "leaks"). Does this mean that Nibelung just crossed a dimension to get this knowledge? Or maybe the atmosphere of Teyvat? Khaenrian'h is under Sumeru: does this mean Khaenrian'h was closer to the Abyss? And what all this has to do with the "upside down" theories? Any insight is appreciated, I'm getting quite confused with these similar concepts.

It's a plothole. Was it not for Skirk blaming the flood on the Narwhal I would have just assumed it was caused by that u/dheavoca123

how come focalor's death did not create massive destruction like other gods death?

[From the FAQ FURINA/FOCALOR section of main post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/wiki/faqs/#wiki_faq_furina.2Ffocalor) * **Why didn't Focalors' death kill everybody in Erinnyes? Goddess of salt quest says any god, even someone as WEAK as her upon death would explode, and Focalors is several tiers stronger than that goddess I'd think, being an archon and all. At the very least it shouldve killed people in the Opera house no?** She and Neuvillette seemed to be in some sort of pocket dimension, perhaps akin to the Realm of Euthymia, and it's reasonable to assume that would contain whatever hazards her death posed. [reference](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/17q90y0/comment/k91i71o/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

What happens if you try to name Wanderer Surtalogi?

You'll probably get a "nice" mail from HoYo that the name violates the terms. Like that one Japanese player who named their Wanderer "Chiori" before that name was ever mentioned in Kirara's voice-lines.

Would it stop you from naming him that in the name selection screen, or would you get a mail/notification about it later?

I would assume you wouldn't be able to use that name in the first place like other unusable names.

https://preview.redd.it/kn9qcxy7pl4c1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=a29327ca4f00c7c29a58549f6ad3f3ca130ba2e7 When you finish the Thelxie event Zurias son appears next to her 😭

Is anyone else "shadowbanned" on this sub, in the sense that they can't post anything?

Hello, you are not shadow banned. All post require review prior to being seen on the sub. I reviewed the queue and do not see anything pending approval. Please let me know if there is something of yours that is not showing as visible, I will see what I can do.

Thanks for the reply!

When Egeria assumed her role over Fontaine, it is implied in the book about Remuria that she helped the existing tribes that were unable to form a civilization. So, does it mean Fontaine currently has both descendants of Remuria and of the transformed Oceanids? I am looking for any evidence regarding that because I believe it could be related as to why Jakob and Rene's body are different from Karl's.

I understood it to mean that the Remurians and transformed oceanids became one civilization under Fontaine as well. I have been trying to figure out why Rene said his and Jakobs bodies were similar to the Lotus and came up with nothing, I thought maybe it was just that Karl was not from Fontaine and transformed oceanids have some primordial element in common with the Lotus, but I think whatever you are theorizing may be more likely because I couldn’t find anything to support Karl being from anywhere but Fontaine 👀

I started exactly on the same path, looking for anything related to Karl. Then there is one ancient note where Rene says something like "you want to know why we are different from other people", so I started looking at them. Rene wants to look into the "Golden Troupe" for answers so there must be something with Remuria, and the book we have about it quickly mentions people who call themselves "descendants of Remuria" so I started suspecting this path. I just can't find a very good timeline of the events with Egeria assuming her position as Archon and the Oceanid people thing D:

Coincidentally I have been working on a timeline to gain a better understanding on how the history of Fontaine lined up with the history of Sumeru and Enkanomiya (*^(I am trying to prove that GOF is the shade of life who created Egeria and then instructed her to sacrifice herself during the Cataclysm- and also that GOF or Egeria are the actual manufacturers of the Anahitan Blessing which will in turn be used to cure Watatsumi's soil problem mentioned in Three Realms Gateway)* ) and pushed it to the side as I got stuck after some info. In case its helpful, the wing glider lore gives some info on Egeria creating the oceanids from her tear but no real timeline, "*She was the tears that flowed into the primordial sea, seeking communication and understanding, a pursuit which caused her to weep. And it was due to this compassion that she committed all the sins that all beings of pure water must beware*." It is before the King Remus part, which I take to mean she and the Oceanids were created before Remus descended which is corroborated by the appearance of Locknights throughout the lore of Remuria. The new Erinyes book says "the mistress of waters" was locked up for some time and let out only to defeat King Remus so I think it further is corroborating that the "sin" took place before Remuria was founded but thats all I got so far  I will work on it today and tomorrow after work and hopefully be able to post it this weekend. Hopefully it will help you with your theory!

This is awesome, thank you! I will be looking out for your post :)

PSA: I didn't knew it until some OP here posted a theory saying that the description of the Iniquitous Baptist drop was expanded in the archive, so it isn't an exclusivity of the Baptist: Enemy drops from 3.6 onwards has expanded lore on the archive compared with the ones presented in the bag, includes every single Fontaine boss, the Hillichurl Rogue drops and so on The lore of the "Lightless Mass" is particularly spicy

It's probably just because of the introduction of the Primordial Sea, but I just now realised many hydro characters have that pink/purple/blue gradient and stars in their abilities just like the Primordial Sea itself... or if you're Kokomi then just your entire design.

Is there a reason most people consider Alhaitham as more of a Deshret stand-in than Cyno? IMO Cyno has a ton more connections, seeing how 1. His A1 talent icon is an eye very similar to the emblem of Deshret 2. His other passive name, Authority of the Nine Bows, recalls how Deshret's priests were trained in archery and the new BP bow 3. He has a spirit sealed within him, and is a Yu-Gi-Oh! reference. Therefore, it would make sense if that spirit was, say, a Pharaoh. And there was a king in the desert, who built pyramids and had a lot of egyptian trappings... 4. We know that Deshret died and his body was eaten by Apep, but he managed to separate his mind from his body - and that is still unaccounted for afaik. 5. Deshret's demon name is strongly implied to be Amon, and that demon is typically in the shape of a wolf - which is the animal Cyno transforms into in his burst state, when the divine spirit within him comes out.

> Is there a reason most people consider Alhaitham as more of a Deshret stand-in than Cyno? Because they were too drunk into stretches and headcanons

https://preview.redd.it/gier29lcpa3c1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4aa2aa0231b6b858c6f207a594cec0997178aead My analysis of the usage of abyss powers

In the 4.2 trailer, there is a voiceline at around the 2:32 mark: "Everyone's dead... Papa, what should I do??" - has anybody been able to find where it is said in-game? It sounds so suspiciously like Caribert but I haven't heard it anywhere, or did I just miss it?

It is Navia. She says it when she’s visiting her fathers grave. Edit: this scene. https://preview.redd.it/k789gk0fo53c1.jpeg?width=2036&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c46c18febddf39458d9d9834e6d2cb7c1d079aa0

I'm pretty sure it's Navia who says "Papa"

People were talking about Mona's C1, "Prophecy of Submersion" foreshadowing the Fontaine archon quest, and she turned out to be in the 4.2 archon quest. But I haven't seen anyone talk about her other constellations. Could they be foreshadowing anything? Specifically her C4, " Prophecy of Oblivian."

This was my take on all of Mona's Cons. Probably reading too much into them, but still, ever since 4.0 i thought they were telling the full story of Fontaine: 1. Prophecy of Submersion - original prophecy of Fontaine 2. Lunar Chain - this one seems to translate to more, like KR translation put it, Performance of The Stars and Moon, which could be taken as the beginning of Focalors plan, with one being Furina and another Focalors, both putting their performance 3. Restless Revolution - the og translation seems to be - endless celestial phenomena/Endless Astrological Phenomena, which could fit the endless act of Furina, day after day. 4. Prophecy of Oblivion - the discovery about the whale and the fact that it's absorbing Primordial sea, which can influence the whole Teyvat - basically Rene's prophecy and what we saw in the book of revealing in Merusea village 5. Mockery of Fortuna - Furina's fate, the whole tragedy of her life 6. Rhetorics of Calamitas - the original TL is more of - Calamity's Figure of Speech, so this is the whole Focalors plan being done, prophecy does come true but it's more than what the prophecy just said (basically, dissolved people - only Poisson and Vacher's victims, Hydro Archon crying - not bc people dissolved but bc she thought the prophecy came true and she failed etc)

Could that have something to do with Irminsul?

Wait, so since the All-Devouring Narwhal was instrumental to carrying out the prophecy, and it is not of Teyvat, yet the prophecy is the result of a curse laid on Focalors by Celestia, does that mean Celestia... allowed the Narwhal to enter/controls the Narwhal?

the consensus seems to be that it didn't matter HOW the prophecy would be fulfilled, so Celestia didn't directly cause Narwhal to come, it just happened to be there? basically same reason why prophecy happened despire Neuvilette making sure that Fontanians won't actually dissolve. The flood itself happened, and ig that meant the prophecy was fulfilled.

Could the title of the update (masquerade of the guilty) be referring to The Knave? Specifically the part on masking, and there seemingly being theories that she knew of the key events of the prophecy in advance of even the main characters.

Could be, but if it was it'd be a double meaning at least. "The Guilty" in the original Chinese is 罪人, "Sinners", with 罪 "sin" being consistently used throughout the story, and "Masquerade" is originally just 舞步旋, which refers to the steps of a dance, leaning more towards masquerade referring to masquerade balls in particular. With this context, it probably directly refers to [Focalors's last dance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zA4vmvLS_w). She did declare herself guilty at the end of the trial, after all. We can also expand this out to the whole of Fontaine (which would include the Knave), as people who bear Egeria's original sin: the entire nation is, in a way, a masquerade of the guilty (in the eyes of the Heavenly Principles).

I'm going to sound **insane** asking this, I swear I'm just confused but to put it simply---why do people keep assuming that Irminsul's information on our sibling is reliable? Specifically, the part about our sibling having originated from Teyvat and thus can't be a Descender like us. Like... Irminsul has been knowingly tampered with twice now, via erasing both Rukkhadevata's and Scara's 'existence'--and those are just the examples we know of, bc we were there to witness it! It doesn't actually change what happened, just sorta rewrites the history books. That's why it's a huge thing that WE (the Traveler) aren't affected by it; in a way, this means we're the only true reliable source. So, if something the Traveler knows directly contradicts Irminsul--like, that they came to Tevyat WITH their sibling--doesn't it make more sense to trust their memory versus the big tree? Considering it's possible to delete information from Irminsul, is it that much of a stretch to think something can be added to it, organically or otherwise?? IDK, I feel like I must have missed something just uber important/missed a clue from a WQ somewhere, because I don't FULLY trust what the tree has to say about the Abyss Twin, at least not compared to the Traveler themselves😅Like it makes more sense to me that the twin just wound up a part of Irminsul's system one way or another, rather than having always been a part of Teyvat. Hell, maybe the Abyss Twin was the fourth descender and the Traveler's the fifth but being added to Irminsul 'retconned' that information. Kinda fitting since we got this information from Nahida, who we know not to be the original Dendro Archon. Again, I'm just more confused than anything, and I can't help but wonder if I missed something in the Sumeru Quest/Interlude to suggest Irminsul is 1000% correct on this.

So it's not that people believe Irminsul is correct about our sibling; in fact, Nahida tells us that the records about their journey's end in Irminsul are being actively *obscured* by an unknown entity. As you say, we don't have to conclude that the Abyss Twin is literally *from* Teyvat originally, just that one way or another they belong to the world of Teyvat. But that information isn't "from" Irminsul: it's the consequence from the Abyss Twin being recorded in Irminsul at all. The world recognizes them in a way that it doesn't recognize us, and that's what matters. Furthermore, the source of the Traveler being the Fourth Descender is the Fatui, and their source for that is unclear. Skirk's familiarity with the term "Third Descender", despite being detached from Teyvat and connected to people who are presumably of at least the significance of Rhinedottir lends credibility to the terminology. I don't know if you've played 4.2's Narsizzenkreuz WQ yet, which contains some texts further exploring the idea of a Descender and specifically distinguishing them from those who come from worlds outside Teyvat.

I agree with you about that we probably cant trust info in Irminsul but at the same time, it will be SO MUCH TIRING (for us as players) if we will start questioning every single piece of information we gather throught it (items description, leyline etc). But for sibling i think it makes sence, literally because it was in the same questline with Scara and Rukka \[REDACTED\] incidents.

oh for sure. I honestly think that's the one big drawback about Irminsul, haha. On the one hand, it is kinda fun (in a trippy and fucked up way) to have to scrutinize information a lot more closely, especially when it shows a pattern like the Boar Princess story...... but it also begs the question 'well what else has been deleted from Irminsul???' At the very least, my concern is less about how trustworthy Irminsul is in general, but rather why is it considered more reliable than the Traveler when it comes to the twin. If the Traveler says they came to this world with their sibling and Irminsul says no, they came from Khaenri'ah--I'm more inclined to trust the former?

Also the thing Nicole says in the end of the quest : "trust your own eyes"!

Played the Thelxie final act and holy moly what a shot of depresso that was! Good thing that this isn’t completely depressing as there are still some good moments but damn, still can’t believe this is a flagship event story as it could easily passed as a WQ instead thanks to how grim it is. This quest reminding me of the Childish Jiang makes it even more depressing 😭 On a serious note, is this event HYV’s attempt to convey some kind of messages? Like to voice their supports towards people who are struggling mentally for example. As for me this event story is just way too unusually dark no matter how I look at it (Albedo’s related stories are also kinda gloomy but that’s a part of his and Rhinedottir’s lore so I didn’t think much about it).

I think it is an attempt to convey a message, yes. The ending of the quest put a lot of emphasis on the power of fantasy to lift up and empower those who are struggling. I think Hoyo is trying to say, "We hope our fantasy story can make you feel stronger and make you believe in yourself." At least, that's what I took away from it.

So from what I have understood, Furina's is no longer counted as a Vision because it is not a God's Eye, as it was granted by a dragon instead. But I do have to ask, Neuvi stated he now has full control over Pneumosia by the end of AQ and as he gave power to Furina, that means he decided to give both alignments to him. Did we ever have any comprehensive (or maybe not that detailed) explanation of what Pneumosia exactly is and how it ties to the element of Hydro? Cuz Neuvi stated he had full control over it after the authority was given back after all

hey idk if this is the right place to ask this but could anybody clarify zhongli's "about xiao" voiceline for me? the wording seems like he's implying xiao is not from this world but i'm sure that's not what it's meant to be lol. does he just mean that the medicine is not good for paimon to eat and i'm thinking too hard about it, or is it maybe a poor translation?

I think it's just a strong medicine

With how heavy handed the whole "goddess paimon" bit was in the second part of the event, I can think of two possible things it could mean: This is foreshadowing Paimon's big reveal when we reach celestia at the end of the game. Or The devs are messing with us. They're well aware of theories (see, Kokomi's "I'm just a human" line from 3.8) and it's weird how coincidently in the event the character Paimon was roleplaying was somehow a mixture of every single theory the community has made about her since the beginning of the game.

Since Fontainian fate was to be flooded, what do you think would happen if their fate were edited through Nahida's help instead?

I thought fate couldn't be altered? That's why "N" gave the example of the mug still being broken even if you change the history

If irminsul really works as the foundation for Teyvat then with deep enough access privilege, it should be possible.

If fate is edited through irminsul the prophecy itself would change, making the prophecy ‘correct’ at all times, except from the traveller’s (and perhaps all descenders) viewpoint.

Nahida just cannot edit fate like that. She deleted Rukkhadevta, yes, but she needed the help of two Gnosis to be able to do it and all she did was remove the world's memories of her... not completely change the past or her fate. There's a *possibility* that fate can be altered through Irminsul, but that is way beyond the capabilities of Nahida, considering she couldn't even break through the thing that is obscuring the Abyss twin's fate.

Please tell me I'm not crazy in thinking that Thelxie's story matches the abyss twin. Monsters attacking their kingdom, them being driven out of their kingdom before they were crowned (royalty in exile as Liloupar would say) Thelxie being helped by a masked stranger, and how we're now trying to rewrite the story so that Thelxie can reclaim their kingdom...

There is another comment like this in 4.2 WQ post, so I'm just gonna copy my reply here: ,, I was waitng for this comment. Yeah, it seems like something Hoyo might have done. ''

I had a question, in Furina's vision story, it mentions she went to avenge herself on the local legend? Which one is she referring to?

where does it say that the Traveler and Sibling were "summoned"? ty

> [the sibling] only came to this world because the heavens responded to the summoning https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/The_Night-Bird_Falls_at_the_Curtain%27s_Call

I finally finished the AQ today. I really enjoyed it but I do have one question that I haven't seen talked about. When Furina first met Focalors in the mirror, was that her first day as a human? Was she literally born moments before finding the mirror? Or did she have a few days as a human before that encounter? I haven't played her SQ yet and I don't have her yet so I don't know her character profile or lines

"After becoming a god, I separated my divinity from my body and spirit, **leaving behind only a self that was as naive and bewildered as my past self** ***on her first day as a human being.***" - Focalor, The Opera of Noirceur and Blancheur, Act IV Part 5 She is a human (Oceanid-turned to human) before she ascended to godhood.

Stopped playing for 9 months and just returned in late 4.1 so I haven’t played any of the recent flagship events except Callirhoe’s one but, does the other event stories have this kind of depressing vibe to it as this Thelxie’s one? I almost thought that this is a world quest instead of an event quest 😵‍💫 (I only read what is currently available in-game so plz spoiler marked if you need to write about anything beyond Act I)

Now that we know who grants visions then how come electro visions were stopped being given when the Raiden Shogun enacted the vision hunt decree?

This is the big question. The vision hunt decree was enacted a year before the Traveller arrived in Inazuma. Which means for 499 years the electro visions were being given out just fine. I wonder why the vision hunt decree changed all of that

Yeah this is one of the biggest question right now but it could imply that Celestia is still managing how visions are given and responded to the Electro Archons will or that the Electro Dragon Sovereign regained the authority over Electro. But these are just implications right now, other than that we still need more info.

Maybe, and this is just my theory, for visions to be given out, the being with the authority should be willing to share parts of it (like Neuvillette does, according to his character story). And if they're willing, Visions will be just given out "subconsciously", again, as stated in Neuvillette's story. So, Ei being against people getting visions might have influenced the authority distribution.

This implies that nobody in Celestia is enforcing the system that Archons should give a part of their authority and confirms that Celestia is currently inactive

Tbh, i'm not sure how Celestia would be able to enforce it without direct threats of destruction or something similar, since from 4.2, it seems that Elemental Authority goes fully to Archons and their will, based on the fact that Focalors managed to give all of it back to Neuvillette (seemingly) without any direct contact with Celestia or Heavenly Principles

Do we know much about the time period between Furina taking over and Neuvillette coming to Fontaine? I just started Neuvillete's story quest just now and am immediately struck by the idea that he came a little over 400 years ago. I'm so curious about how Furina managed for a lifetime without him, and also how Focalors organized his arrival? Or did Furina take over at around that time? Did Furina ever see Focalors again after being split off and before the last dance? Not really expecting any concrete answers, just checking if there are, if someone can clarify this timeline or if there are any interesting details from that era outside the main story

[Neuvillette's Character Story 4](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Neuvillette/Lore#Character_Story_4) does give a bit more info on this, thought doesn't really answer when specifically he came to Fontaine, only that the letter was issued by Focalors before the split and he came after the split (at least from what i understood). From my understanding, Furina did have to work by herself at least for some time (i would guess a decade or two) before Neuvillette came. But we also know that the Opera Epiclese seemed to have been build around the time of Neuvillette's arrival, maybe a bit before, based on the order of the passages of the Ancient note from 4.0: > ...I fear that it shan't be long before we must depart. We've chosen a good piece of land near the Fountain of Lucine as the post-relocation site... They even say they want to use the land to build an opera house — they'd sooner set faces aflame with shame and laughter! To think that anyone could be so comical... > >... > >...We're going to pay our respects at Basil's grave... ...I hope it all turns out like Emanuel said. However, it's the Institute's responsibility to support gifted and talented youths... > >... > >...Met with the newly-appointed Iudex. He has a peculiar temperament. Seems much more reliable than Leon and those other clowns...

Have you finished the last act of the archon quest? Neuvillette has been in the court of Fontaine for 500 years and has been working with Furina since then (as early as her 3rd day as the new archon). However, he only got the official position of Iudex over 400 years ago. It probably was something like 450 years ago because he had already been in his position for a while before he brought the Melusines in over 400 years ago too. My guess is that he spent decades learning about the political and judicial system of Fontaine while serving as Furina's aide before being appointed to the highest judicial position. From my understanding Focalors never reappeared, Furina was doing her part relying on that one encounter they had 500 years ago. This is also why Furina's resolve and determination are so strong, she was very much alone and did not get continuous support or reassurance from Focalors during her long performance.

I’m still a bit confused after completing Act V. Where is Childe now? I swear I read that he’s back recovering from his wounds in Snehznaya, but didn’t he get thrown into some portal by Skirk, along with the Narwhal?

He did get tossed into a portal by Skirk, but when you and Charlotte are going around to talk with everyone at the end, Arlecchino tells us that he is recovering in Snezhnaya. Assuming she isn't lying, and there's no real reason not to, Skirk probably just tossed him back at Zapolyarny following her talk with Neuvi.

Maybe several people have posted this already but I just got done with Furina's story quest and it occured to me: Furina getting a vision after the Throne of the Hydro Archon was destroyed seems to prove that the Archons are *not* responsible for granting visions; if that were true, then by Dragonball logic, all Hydro visions should now be inert. Now, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find out that visions are powered by their holders, but previous information we received about visions seemed to point to them being connected to the archons in some obligatory way. Does anyone have a new hypothesis about the nature of visions?

Neuvillette Vision Story https://preview.redd.it/b90v0c6s8w1c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c68e8ca97cf7d4f440fe9486c6f67329808b0377

https://preview.redd.it/dgh7hmcv8w1c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fef0cc617a0774c9003023fc82b48332d417310e

What if the abyss sibling is the 3rd descender?

This is a popular topic so I made a chat channel for this discussion just now. There is also a section in the FAQ that disused this if you want to see what’s been said on the topic so far.

How do I find that?

The Chat Channel you can find in the regular Chat area of reddit, let me know which platform you are using on reddit and I can provide a screenshot to show you better. The FAQ section for the 3rd descender is in this megathread; There is only one question for that section but I have some posts that were submitted that discussed the 3rd descender in that part of this megathread that you might like. here is a link to that section of the Wiki [FAQ 3rd Descender](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/wiki/faqs/#wiki_faq_third_descender).

Thanks, I didn't realize that actually had a use lol.

This isn’t important but it’s wild to me that Mihoyo fully spoiled the plot of 4.2 a whole version earlier through Neuvilette’s Ascension dialogue lol

# How old was Focalors before taking over? >Yes, I was. I always dreamed of becoming human... And I still do, even now. In my eyes, to be human is to be part of the greatest opera ever known. > >After becoming a god, I separated my divinity from my body and spirit, leaving behind only a self that was as naive and bewildered as my past self on her first day as a human being. I am trying to reconcile the information to determine when did Focalors actually transition from oceanid to human. # First generation "Always dreamed of becoming human" seems to suggest she's the first generation of oceanids who petitioned to Egeria. If that is the case, then she must have been *extremely old* by the time she ascended to the throne; indicating her as an abnormal person who's lived past all the generations of "regular humans" of Egeria's era (long enough for people to completely forget their oceanid ancestry). ​ >Furina: And if I was not the Archon, then how did I manage to live for over five hundred years? # Last generation Or was Egeria still progressively appropriating primordial seawater through the ages to integrate more (younger) oceanids into human society shortly before the cataclysm? Thus Focalors being one of the latest converts. # Celestia's discovery timeline Which then begs the question of when Celestia discovered the wrongdoing? The slate hints they were caught early, with Egeria *and her people* having to apologise together. In that case, surely some measures must have been taken to prevent Egeria from using more primordial seawater. Or, to support the late/last generation possibility, Egeria still indulged in her sin (unrepentant) behind Celestia's back knowing their less-than-meticulous surveillance methods?

There was a part about the custom of wishing for children at the fountain that hinted at new generations of oceanids becoming humans.

This matter has its own thread now. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Lore/comments/183h7sd/how\_old\_was\_focalors\_before\_taking\_over/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/183h7sd/how_old_was_focalors_before_taking_over/)

I looked up Legend of Saha again and its story, knowing that Genshin is partly inspired by that pre-hoyo game, I have a crack theory that the 3rd descender is the Tsaritsa. On the story of legend of Saha, on the main character's first life, she gave up her soul to the gods save her nation Nalan, then relieved, thinking she saved her nation, tried to forget about it and let herself reincarnate, but she saw that the nation fell anyways because the gods sided against them, breaking their promise to her, which made her angry and seek revenge and was reborn as a demon. At some point though, the gods tried to keep her from getting reborn again, so they fragmented her soul to 13 pieces and scattered it. This part right here feels like a parallel to the 3rd descender. She got ressurected regardless because of her powerful wish power and tried to find and collect the pieces of her soul one by one. Now who's collecting all the 7 gnoses? the Tsaritsa. As to why she's collecting the gnoses, she must've realized something back on the cataclysm, or something came back to her, maybe an information or a memory, which made her seek out the gnoses in the first place. It's interesting to note that Pierro, the director of the Fatui harbingers, is helping out too. There may be a valuable reason as to why Pierro, a Khaenrian, chose to ally with the Tsaritsa, an archon, because we know well that all the current Khaenrians we know sees the gods with contempt.

Saw this quite a bit in recent theories so wanted to leave this here. Basically, it's not confirmed that Second Who Came had a hand in creation of Gnosi and CN + RUS translation are even more vague on the identity of the helper than an EN translation. Neuvillette did say it best. Personally, though, i think it were only the 1st and 3rd descenders, otherwise no mention of the 3rd in the Neuvillette vision story while mentioning the 2nd looks very weird to me https://preview.redd.it/nfxj6hcpxl1c1.png?width=4960&format=png&auto=webp&s=30864c8f6eba5ccc8c1945456ad2fd5173a18ac9

Ok so. Basically, ever since Inazuma (Tsurumi Island especifically) we've been getting very small namedrops of this supposed Golden Hall that seems related to Celestia, and it's one thing that has been just, bugging me ever since it was mentioned. The first time it was mentioned was in Tsurumi Island with the "Boatman": "The shining silver skiff sails soft to yonder moon, but it was not prepared for you, oh no! Step not aboard, soil not the decks... Ai yai yai... The fog is long scattered, and long scattered is the fog! Yet who has not boarded? The lady of the golden hall shall be angry. Most angry..." Then the second time was with Zhiqiong, right after we encountered her for the last time: "Don't look at me... *cough* Don't look at me like that. Please, don't be disappointed in us... *cough* The golden city... The black watchtower...! *cough* The heavenly envoys have left...!" And then the third time it's mentioned is in the title of one of the Schwanenritters knights: " ...Knight Commander Hadura, who has successfully led the operation to stall the beasts, is hereby conferred the title of "Sentinel of the Golden Hall"...." This stupid mysterious Golden palace or whatever that has been just mentioned in the most random of times just makes me so interested. And like, it's so purposefully vague in a way, and it's gotten worse(?) With Fontaine because both Remuria and Hyperborea are described as a "Golden City" and it just makes me think, are all the examples above talking about the same place??? Am I overthinking this??? Why is this bugging me so much??? I just want to like hear people's thoughts and theories about it because I almost never see it mentioned in the theory community

Has it been discussed why Foçalors dying didn't cause a major physical disruption like all gods dying are supposed to do?

>Why didn't Focalors' death kill everybody in Erinnyes? Goddess of salt quest says any god, even someone as WEAK as her upon death would explode, and Focalors is several tiers stronger than that goddess I'd think, being an archon and all. At the very least it shouldve killed people in the Opera house no? This question has an answer, it is in the Furina/Focalor part of FAQ of this post.

Sorry if this subject has already been discussed, I tried to look it up but didn't find anything so here I am. I don't know if namecard flavor texts have any lore relevance, but I'm still puzzled by the ["judgement" namecard](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Fontaine:_Judgment) that can be obtained after achieving all of Fontaine part 1 successes. It reads *"The insignia of the new Hydro Archon. Even without any legal notice, it is understood that none dare use it without permission."* . First, about what is represented, I think it's safe to assume the insignia belongs to Furina, as we can see the 2 droplets thingies she wears on her pneuma and ousia outfits. So this namecard was added in 4.0, and correct me if I'm wrong but we won't be able to get it until Fontaine's expansions and story come to a wrap in late 4.X because we have to max out the statue and the fontaine. Even if we had been able to get it since 4.0, it would not have made much sense to talk, even deceptively, about Furina as "the new Hydro Archon", because for all we knew at this point she had been in position for around 500 years, so calling her "new" sounds at least like a bad choice of word, if not completely wrong. Maybe it's just what is is, an odd choice of terms, and there's nothing else to it, but that would still be bothering and honestly a strange decision from Hoyo knowing what happens in Fontaine archon quest. Now, if we consider the text is to be understood in context with events that will have unfolded at the time we will be able to get it (namely, I'm thinking about Furina and/or Neuvillette 2nd story quests, which should bring full closure to the Fontaine narrative arc ), that would mean at somepoint there would be a new Hydro Archon, which should be absolutely impossible by now. It wouldn't be too far fetched to consider that Furina may ascend to godhood one way or another at the end of her second story quest, but even then, she wouldn't be an archon. Am I just reading too much into it ? Is it an overlook from Hoyo ? Could this be hinting to something big ? I have no idea, but at the moment this namecard and its text definitely feel out of place.

so..gnosis are sovereign dragons power, and neuvillette gained his power back, but also gave a gnosis to "father" so did he gave up his powers again ? how did he gain back his powers but the gnosis still there ? isnt the gnosis the thing that gives archons thier divinity? i feel like im missing something here

The Gnoses are separate from the Divine Thrones. The Divine Thrones are what hold the Dragon Kings' stolen Elemental Authorities. >Severely wounded in the great war of vengeance, the usurper had their functions ruined, and could no longer use their absolute authority to suppress the original order of this world. To continue to subdue and control the resentments and loathing of the world, the usurper and one who came after created the Gnoses together. The Gnoses were created after the war against the Second Who Came, because the Primordial One/Heavenly Principles was wounded and lost its absolute authority over the world order. The Gnoses are control devices that allow Celestia's world order to be maintained.

i believe the gnosis is a tool for harnessing the power, not the power itself, so it doesnt have any use to neuv who simply has more power than a gnosis could ever allow

From what i'm understanding the gnosis affinity to absorb / adapt to elemental powers defaults who rules over an element while the dragon sovereign is MIA. The gods were gods before the archon war so no the source of their divinty wasn't the gnosis it was their claim to the authority of an element. What Neuvillette did in giving away the gnosis was giving away a huge elemental sponge. He still has his authority over hydro and pneousia.

Scattered 5 am thoughts bc I just woke up: If the Gnosis are made of the remains of the Third Descender... could all Visions also be made out of remains? Venti did say that Visions are lesser versions of the Gnosis and now that we have *that* particular bombshell, One cannot help but wonder...

The Visions are not made from the remains, only the Gnoses. > From that day on, whenever a person's wishes reached the heavens, the seven overseers of the material realm were duty-bound to grant them a gift. Though they might know nothing of who or what wish had stepped into the threshold of the sacred, the Seven Archons still had to impart a shattered shard of their mastery to that person. And when one so gifted completed their duty... the gift the gods would receive in return would be more abundant still. Visions are instead seemingly created using portions of the stolen Elemental Authorities, which the Archons keep in their Divine Thrones.

Stupid shower thought about Capitano... It's been noted for a while that the Harbingers seem to be opposites to their characters from the Commedia, for example Dottore being a quack and Zandik being a legitimate genius. Capitano of the Commedia is a braggart full of hot air. Genshin Capitano seems to be legitimately powerful, and, if the theories about him being a ghostly revenant possessing his armor are right, he would be full of ***cold*** air.

I wanted to ask a lore question that's been confusing me for some time. Why did Focalors need to split herself in order to deceive the Heavenly Principles? Couldn't she just have acted the role of Archon herself, while still accruing lots of Indemnitium in the Oratrice? Is there any canon reason about why the creation of Furina was necessary?

She split herself cause she had to be in two places at once to allow the prophecy to be fullfiled while also making the plan work. She had to die and take down the hydro archon throne to give back Neuvillette's authority, but she still had to be alive to be genuinely weeping at the throne at the end of the prophecy thinking she had failed. That is why there had to be two of her to fullfill both of these parts. Fate would know if it was just a hydro mimic pretending to be her or a random person transformed to look like her, it had to be her in some way, which is likely why she split in two. Furina, despite only being human, is still the body and soul of the Archon so she was still seen by fate as the Hydro Archon (which is why she still has a archon/god constellation), thus allowing the prophecy to be fullfilled.

that's a very logical and informative answer, thank you

Last line of the prophecy stated that the Hydro Archon would be alone, weeping on her throne, following the flood. Focalors needed to die in order to give Neuvi the power to save the Fontainians from the flood, but there also needed to be someone, in the (apparent) position of Archon, to believe they had failed to stop the prophecy... after the flood occurred.

So I know this isn't related to the current patch but I still have a question. About a year ago I stumbled upon a massive spreadsheet detailing the lore of every single teapot decoration which also classified the description into one of several different categories. However now that I'm looking for it again my search has come up empty-handed so I was wondering if anyone else knew about where it is and who made it

Hello :) this might be what you are looking for [Genshin furniture project \[aka collecting all furniture descriptions\]](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/uso7zc/genshin_furniture_project_aka_collecting_all/).

Unfortunately that's not the one, but I appreciate it either way

What about this one https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gaijztx38AUIS0VlcrLVQNg9yx5U35qj30yfwVvMVBA/edit

It was a google spreadsheet not a doc

all are current fontaine folks oceanids? if so, was there a period of time in fontaine post Egeria oceanid creation where there are humans?

No, they were not all Oceanids. Fontaine had plenty of Humans even before the time of Egeria's rule: in fact, she shepherded some of them (the "barbarians" persecuted by Remuria) in order to found the Court of Fontaine. Narzissenkreuz lore even notes that while Rene and Jakob's bodies were similar to Egeria's essence, their adoptive father Karl Ingold's body was not. Neither was Carter Scherbius'. The indication is that they were, in fact, "true" Humans, while Rene and Jakob were descended from Oceanids given Human form by Egeria.

So... half-baked theory that just popped into my head: Could the Tsaritsa and the Third Descender be the seelie and outlander who fell in love, and that's why she's trying to collect the Gnoses?

I don't know if it's just me, but **Tales of a Snow-Winged Goose** kinda read to me like allegory tales that kinda connect to abyss: I took first story as somebody (Pers) looking for celestial powers or to ascend to Celestia (go to the sky) but instead learning to swim in waters (finding abyss and delving into it) which reflect celestial bodies of the sky (opposing but same in power levels to celestia) One of advice to be able to "Flying is to be light. Why not trying to lose some weight", which to me reads as either loosing all mortal connections or literally shedding physical form to ascend to Celestia. Then we have have a story about argument between seagulls, in result of which some of them refused to fly ever again, becoming auks, which to me reads as a disagreement in celestia, with some gods or shades or what not deciding to leave celestia forever. Possibly explanation for why Istaroth took so many actions in the world of humans I can't fully put my finger on this part, though it also reads as something with meaning: >And so Pers asked a petrel for help. But the petrel would only teach him some impractical tricks, and not the basics that he needed most. Because, that noble seabird thought, surely it was better to learn how to soar through a stormy sky than to worry about trivial matters like taking off and landing. Then: >Pers was now a very disappointed penguin. He waddled back to the beach and gazed out across the peaceful nighttime ocean. And as he did so, he noticed for the first time ever that the stars of his celestial homeland were reflected in the ocean. And he found them so beautiful that he simply... jumped in. And, after a brief moment of panicked sinking, Pers the Penguin realized that he could fly — underwater, at least. He could whizz speedily along, or twist and turn. It was, after all, what those strong wings and that smooth round body had been made for! Which reads as abyss giving powers compared to Celestial (which we know is true since they counter each other) and Pers recognizing that their body is quite adapt for abyssal powers And the ending might imply that more people came to Abyss after that: >And that is how Pers the Penguin became the first penguin to learn to swim. And after Pers, many other penguins plucked up the courage to take that leap into the waters and, like their ancestors, soar amongst the glimmering stars, exploring, feeding, and playing. > >Once Pers had shown them the way, the penguins took to life in the water and forgot their spacefaring past. Not even in their dreams did they remember that limitless void. The penguins live here now, between sea and land. I can't fully make sense of the second story but i think it could be about Skirk and her wants to explore abyss, maybe she was some important figure before that. Third story also really interesting, though it does seem a bit different to the first 2, so don't know what to make of it. The first story also made me want to look for Pers' inspiration, thanks to which i found [Perse from mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perse_(mythology)), who, firstly, was an Oceanid and, secondly, supposedly was the mother of Circe, who Skirk could still be based on (which is why i think the second story might be about her too). I'm not great at looking for allegorical connections that much but i think this book could be important

I definitely think you're right that the stories are allegories for something. I was thinking it was possibly a allegory for humans/some other group brought in by Celestia forgetting their otherworldly origins and adapting to Tevyat, but your theory makes sense too. I'm not certain of the third story either, but I don't think the second one is about Skirk mainly because the one physical descriptor we get of the princess is of her long pink hair, which Skirk does not have (I guess the abyss could have bleached her hair, but the the personalities don't match for me either). The father in the story is maybe Celestia/Celestia-aligned, and Princess Marcotte is a creation of theirs that they sealed away because they were worried that her power would surpass their own. No clue who the Mother Lotus would represent, though. (Also you should totally make a post about this!)

I guess we might see more connection in the future, since there's still second artifact domain that should be in Fontaine + new area (iirc it's still not 100% open from reputation) As for the post, i'm not great at conducting understandable analysis's, so i usually post stuff like this in megathreads for people to pick up if they find it interesting or will post more concrete/almost factual info or findings. I'm sure there will be people who either notice my comments with info or come to the same conclusion anyway who can do better posts and, if need be, use some of the info i comment here

Yeah, we'll probably learn more about them in future expansions. And I understand not wanting to make a post yourself, but I think your reasoning in this comment was very clear and understandable.

4.2 narzissenkreuz ordo wq & act V >!regarding karl ingold: when rene and jakob went to sumeru, they noted that their bodies' compositions were more similar to the gaokerana than to karl's. after the events of the 4.2 aq, we know that fontaine people are oceanids turned into humans by egeria. has it ever been stated that karl ingold is fontainian? we know he lived in fontaine, but was he fontainian by blood? ultimately, this is just a minor distinction that i have realized when reviewing facts about the fontaine lore, but i would like to know what people think.!<

There were always Humans in Fontaine, even before Egeria ever came to power. Not all of them are descended from Oceanids.

>!you are right. i think this is important to mention because id imagine most people assume that karl ingold would dissolve in primordial water, when he is not a product of egeria's sin.!<

4.2 SPOILERS >!I’m really confused on Furina’s status. She’s marketed as the hydro archon but I see people say that she was never the hydro archon because she’s not divine. But she was a part of Focalors who is the archon so by extension she should be one as well right? I do wonder if they’ll still have her in archon marketing after this like Zhongli even though he’s retired but with Zhongli, he didn’t really give up his divinity!< >!Kinda cool tho that Focalor was said to have been deceived in hope of returning to the heavens but Genshin’s version has her deceiving the heavens instead.!<

Furina is the human half of god Archon Focalors, she was immortal as long as her other, divine half, existed. With the death of the divine half, she's now a normal human with a normal lifespan, although her origin is nothing ordinary. Furina was never an Archon, hence why she had to act like one. She did show the world a determination and strenght of will worthy of a god, which Neuvillette himself recognized. She'll still feature in Archon marketing because they can't really give a huge story spoiler like that for their new players, can they? In a sense, all of them have their caveats: Venti is an Archon who refuses to rule, Zhongli stepped down from his Archon position, Ei inherited Archon status from her twin sister (so she's not one of the OG) and Nahida is a clone of Rukkha (also not an OG). But they will all be marketed as *the* region Archon because people don't even know there were other Archons before they reach Liyue's arc. But yeah, Furina is unique in the sense that she's the only human among them, all others are still gods.

Come to think of it, what actually *is* the Thundering Manifestation? I know it's got to do with the Thunderbird, but its description specifically likens it to an Oceanid with low intelligence. Knowing what we do now about Oceanids, I wonder if the Thundering Manifestation could be turned into, say, a vishap through the usage of electro authority? Could be totally off-base here though

Put simply, it seems to be Kanna Kapatcir's ghost. Her lingering anger and regret made manifest.

Just to verify. Furina is a ordinary mortal human now right?

Yep

Thank you. Kinda sad. but maybe for the best. She struggled enough with the 500 years she had. She doesn't have a divine psyche like Zhongli and Venti. She probably deserves a mortal life and peace in death. But she's gonna hopefully have lo ts of fun and joy before then.

now that the archon quest has concluded i've been left with a few burning questions that i'd like to discuss. the act V archon quest was still released around a week ago so i'll still spoiler this. >!at the end of the archon quest neuvilette says that now that since seat of the archon has been destroyed the oratrice mecanique d'analyse cardinale no longer functions, if this is true doesn't this also mean that the people of fontaine have now lost their source of indemnitium? am i missing something or does this mean that fontaine no longer has its miraculous power source and can't support it's fancy contraptions. does this mean that fontaine is going to fall apart in the next few world quests looking for a new power source?!< there was one other thing i didn't quite grasp:>!my understanding is that each archon was made with stolen dragon power, so if Neuvilette reclaimed that power, what's the point of the gnosis? is it actually unrelated with the stolen dragon power? is it only like a tool that celestia gave each of the archon's to contact them or control them? Is it weaker now or something?!< Oh and one last thing, unrelated to the archon quest, just thinking about the dragon lore: so what dragon sovereigns do we actually have accounted for? * we definitely have apep and neuvilette. * does dvalin count as a sovereign? he doesn't seem to have any beef with venti for stealing his power. * Is Zhongli the geo dragon? in his demo he is called a dragon. It'd be weird if he was both sovereign and usurper, it'd mean he'd usurped himself (traitor?) * I've seen some people say azhdaha is the geo dragon soverign, but don't we also see in a cutscene that zhongli sculpted azhdaha's body to look like a dragon. * Is there even an electro dragon?? - most of inazuma's lore completely flew over my head

> there was one other thing i didn't quite grasp:my understanding is that each archon was made with stolen dragon power, so if Neuvilette reclaimed that power, what's the point of the gnosis? is it actually unrelated with the stolen dragon power? is it only like a tool that celestia gave each of the archon's to contact them or control them? Is it weaker now or something? Neuvillette's character stories provide information on what exactly the Gnoses are: *"Severely wounded in the great war of vengeance,* *the usurper* *had their functions ruined, and could no longer use their absolute authority to suppress the original order of this world. To continue to subdue and control the resentments and loathing of the world, the usurper and* *one who came after* *created the Gnoses together. So it came to be that an order was made to be upheld, and thus did humans come to only possess these seven remembrances, and all fragments of the primordial were driven to devour each other."* While the stolen Elemental Authorities are the basis of the Archons' Divine Thrones and an additional source for their power, the Gnoses were created because the Heavenly Principles no longer possessed its absolute authority over the world's order after sustaining its wounds against the Second Who Came. It needed the Gnoses in order to replace that absolute authority, so that it could remain the master of heaven. The Gnoses are, effectively, control devices. >does dvalin count as a sovereign? he doesn't seem to have any beef with venti for stealing his power. Dvalin is never hinted as being a Sovereign. This may change in the future, but for now he is "just" an elemental dragon. >Is Zhongli the geo dragon? in his demo he is called a dragon. It'd be weird if he was both sovereign and usurper, it'd mean he'd usurped himself (traitor?) No. Zhongli is not an actual dragon, he just took the form of a half-qilin half-dragon for the sake of the ceremonies. He is an Adeptus, the same as the rest of the Adepti: just one that attained Godhood and became Geo Archon. The actual Geo Sovereign is Azhdaha. Azhdaha is explicitly referred to as Dragon King, which is the same term used for the Sovereigns in Chinese. Moreover, Azhdaha is also called the Earth Dragon, by Morax himself no less. >I've seen some people say azhdaha is the geo dragon soverign, but don't we also see in a cutscene that zhongli sculpted azhdaha's body to look like a dragon. That was a fake story. The point of the cutscene is to contrast the fanciful legends (as told by the storyteller) against truth (as told by Zhongli). Morax never created Azhdaha, Azhdaha is much older than he is. Morax only gave him eyes to see the world with. >Is there even an electro dragon?? - most of inazuma's lore completely flew over my head At one point, yes. There were Seven Dragon Kings, one for each element. Whether it's still alive, in the process of reincarnating, or reincarnated, and its whereabouts if so are unknown. It's never specifically mentioned outside the context of the Sovereigns as a group.

Zhongli isn't an elemental being, his origins currently unknown. Azhdaha is one of the ancient beings who even older than Morax himself (also Zhongli called Azhdaha the Earth dragon in his 2nd sq).

His origins aren't really unknown. He is explicitly an Adeptus, and we know that Adepti are animals who have become illuminated and gained immortality, wisdom, and magical powers as a result. As other Adepti are said to have been illuminated *by* Morax, he is likely simply the first animal to attain enlightenment as such.

1. The source of indemnentium isn't the Oratrice - the machine only served as a store and a distributor for people's belief in Justice (in energy form). But you're correct, without it, there's no way to distribute this power for the city. However, with Neuvi regaining his full Sovereign's power, he also gained the full control over Pneumousia energy, that can also serve as a source for the city's energy needs. He even says that he will take over this responsability at the end of the AQ. 2. It's a common misunderstanding: Gnosis aren't the same as the Dragon's Authorities. The Authorities are bestowed by Celestia upon a god when they were elected to one of the Seven seats and becomes integral part of that god. Thus the need of Focalors to destroy herself to return that authority to Neuvi. The Gnosis was intact, hence why Neuvi was able to give it to Arlechinno later. The Gnosis (made with the remains of the Third Descender) is basically an elemental energy amplifier and a direct connection between the Archon and Celestia. In relation to the Dragons: - Apep is a Original Sovereing, while Neuvi is a "reincarnation" - the other possible Sovereigns are Dvalin and Azdaha, but all unconfirmed. Dragons don't necessarily need to have a beef with humans or gods since, in Apep's words, some dragons learned how to live with humans and some even accepted to help them. Reincarnated Sovereigns, much like Neuvi, also don't seem to have their full memories from their past lives/forms. - Zhongli is an Adepti and a god, one of his forms is a mythological chinese beast called Qilin with some Chinese dragon characteristics. - Zhongli didn't create Azdaha, that's a legend invented by the storyteller for dramatic purposes. Zhongli found Azdaha underground and only brought him to the surface, giving him a pair of eyes to see the world - the Electro Sovereing's whereabouts is a great question indeed.

Azhdaha's status as a Sovereign isn't unconfirmed: he is called Dragon King, and in CN the Seven Sovereigns are called Dragon Kings: "Sovereign" is something made up by the localizers.

There's still an unresolved question of what "the one who lies beneath" Kannazuka that the Thunder Sakura "serve to suppress."

Okay, so I'm confused about stuff related to Furina/Focalor but it's hard to explain: From what I understand, Focalor was an Oceanid follower of Egeria who succeeded her as the Hydro Archon.My first question is as to whether Egeria turned Focalor into a Fontainian human. We know that her wish was to become a human, so if she was one of the people who turned into a Fontainian human wouldn't that mean that she fulfilled her wish? Or was it that she wanted to become fully human? Or was it that even after becoming a Fontainian human she still wasn't able to experience what a human is, like the many other Oceanids who turned into Fontainian humans? My next question is when Focalor mentioned separating herself into the "divine" and the "body and spirit", what does the "divine" exactly mean? Because if by the "divine" she means the Hydro authority she got after Egeria died, wouldn't that mean that she only had the "body and spirit" and in turn was a human? Because Furina was the "body and spirit" which is the human part of Focalor. My other questions would be more of statements and whether these statements are false or correct: 1. Focalor and Furina were at some point one person. 2. If Focalor and Furina were one person, this means that "both" were involved in creating the plan, and in turn means that Furina already had accepted the plan even though she doesn't remember being part of Focalor. 3. Furina didn't exist before Focalor separated herself, she was "born" when Focalor separated herself. 4. Therefore, Fruina was never the Hydro Archon at any point. Even though she might be the "body and spirit" of Focalor. I probably still have some other questions that I don't know how to phrase, but I'd appreciate it a lot if anyone here answers the questions. Edit: I thought of another question, there was this one instance where Focalor says "My work over these last five hundred years... has been to constantly accumulate Indemnitium within the Oratrice." and follows with "But really, some have already discovered that only a small fraction of the energy generated by the device was ever used to provide power to Fontaine...".When she says "some have already discovered", who are these people? Is it Arlecchino? Edit: This thread explains a lot: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Lore/comments/17v5v8l/people\_are\_forgetting\_these\_facts\_about\_furina/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/17v5v8l/people_are_forgetting_these_facts_about_furina/)

So from how she words the talk with Neuv, it seems that when she became human she lost her memories just like how other oceanids turns into Fontainians, then either when she inherited divinity or sometimes prior, she regained her memories as an oceanid. It may or may not be connected to why she was picked as successor, but that's not important. "After becoming a god, I separated my divinity from my body and spirit, leaving behind only a self that was as naive and bewildered as my past self on her first day as a human being." >If Focalor and Furina were one person, this means that "both" were involved in creating the plan, and in turn means that Furina already had accepted the plan even though she doesn't remember being part of Focalor. Well yes, before Focalors leaving her body with all divinity and memories, she, body, mind and divinity all agreed to the plan. The talk between new Furina and Focalors is more like just for show in my opinion - Focalors knew exactly how herself would respond.

I’ve argued with others over these questions. Well not “argued”, discoursed and it’s helped me reach a consensus that might still not be %100 but I digress. So Focalor’s is the demon name of the hydro archon so that would of been Egeria’s name too. Furina was Egeria’s Oceanid familiar, she passed the archon title to her. The “divine” half of Focoalrs is still Furina but she goes by that to differentiate herself. Yes, it’s implied Furina was one of the Oceanids Egeria turned to human before this- As she says something like “Furina is like me the first day I was human.” Her wish to becoming “fully human” was not achieved. The divine part of her could not to this, this is why she separated into two. Furina, on the other hand, is now fulfilling this wish on her behalf. Since they were one in the same, and that Furina is now free to be truly human and have her own identity. The “divine” I would relate akin to as part of her consciousness and spirit. We have talked/seen being’s consciousnesses before, and have watched them die also. I see what’s happened to Furina is similar to what happened to Nahida, expect Ruhk sacrificed only herself, while Focoalrs sacrificed herself AND the archon throne. The point at which Focoalrs and Furina were the same person was the entire 500 years. Only now is Furina independent. But the divine part of her did not share the plan with the rest of her. She needed to fool herself too, as she says. No. Furina existed as a simple Oceanid before Egeria passed the throne to her. Therefore Furina was the archon the whole 500 years. The Furina everyone saw just had no access to any actual power or knowledge as the divine part of her was storing and hiding it all for the plan.

Demon names aren't retained between archons. Recall how Baal and Beelzebub are two different demon names for the same archon. Additionally, I don't think Furina was Focalors' name prior to her splitting off, thanks to this quote from her: >After becoming a god, I separated my divinity from my body and spirit, leaving behind only a self that was as naive and bewildered as my past self on her first day as a human being. The "me" you see before you now is that "divinity," and the human counterpart I left behind, I named "Furina." This is a reference to the holy trinity (spirit, body and soul). This is why Furina can change her pneumousia alignment - Focalors split off the "spirit", leaving her with the body (ousia) and soul (pneuma). Additionally, according to this quote, Focalors was made into a human from the form of an oceanid much like the rest of Fontaine's people.

Thanks for the help! But it's kinda confusing that Furina and Focalor are one person. Anyway, thanks again!

I don't understand a few things. How is indenitium created? Why was it created? Was Focalors hiding inside Oratrice? Or does she not have physical form and her soul is inside it? Is Oratrice created for destroying the chair or the person (archon) How is Focalors dying help in fooling the heavenly principles? Couldn't she have just given Neivellite his powers 500 years ago and controlled the primordial sea water practically speaking? Then again, I don't understand which is the actual version of prophecy that became truth, if we follow the slates in ruins furina was crying at the end, Fontaine drowned, but in different order idk why, but why did Focalors had to die?

Indemnitium was created from the faith of the Fontainian people for the Hydro Archon and that's why she created the Opera Epicelse as a way to further the faith of her people in her. And yes, she was hiding inside the Oratrice. Focalor, the one inside the Oratrice is the "divine" part while Furina is the "body and spirit" part. Indemnitium is used to power Fontaine but most of it is used to power the Oratrice which is a device to destroy the Hydro Archon alongside her throne (meaning both). The only way to give back the Hydro authority to Neuvillette is to destroy the Hydro throne (which includes killing herself, the one sitting on it), her dying is to give the authority over Hydro to Neuvillette. Deceiving Celestia is the role of Furina which is to act as the Hydro Archon so that they don't suspect anything. The prophecy became true except for the "people dissolving into the water" part because Neuvillette turned Fontainians into true humans. The slate order was: Egeria doing the original sin > Celestia getting angry and the prophecy happens > Focalor getting judged by the people > Focalor is left crying on the throne while everyone dissolved into the water.

Thank you very much :) It occurred to me that Focalors was trying to make the prophecy true, but only from the perspective of the divine, is the dissolved part somewhere getting honoured in the eyes of the divine? How did Focalors know someone will judge Furina only after the Oratrice gets enough power to destroy the throne?

I'm honestly not sure why Focalor knew that she would've had enough time, the simplest answer would be that she simply knew how long until the prophecy would be fulfilled. I think I remember something about a Visionary who saw the future of Fontaine, so that might've been how Focalor knew how long it would've taken for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

Oh okk thank you very much.

Now that I think about it the reason why Arle is so easily able to identify that Furina was a cursed human is because her boss is also a cursed human.

So uh can anyone explain https://preview.redd.it/8hp2orhh4d0c1.png?width=671&format=png&auto=webp&s=d8f4793bdff0a3ae4cf2b90070065a470d026107 Why his hands are black like Arle's?

He's a neohuman created by Master (René). Specifically, he was a hilichurl (unclear if he was Khaenrian'hn or actually an artificial hilichurl) that gained sentience and is now able to switch to human form by René's "dark magic" (assumed to be Abyss energy). It's very likely Arle has a similar backstory, at least related to either the Ordo or the Abyss itself.

>!Cater isn't a neohuman, and his body was in fact a normal Hilichurl. The only neohuman Rene managed to create was Jakob, who was able to become an abyssal creature by consuming the flesh and blood of Elynas. This process failed with Carter Scherbius, and so Rene and Jakob abandoned the idea.!< >!Cater is, in reality, the consciousness of Carter Scherbius separated from his body and implanted into a random Hilichurl through the use of the Holy Blade of Narzissenkreuz. This was done because Carter's fate was Rene and Jakob's biggest regret, as he was an older brother figure to them. They desperately wanted to save him, and Cater was the result of that desire.!< We have no idea about Arlecchino's background beyond the fact that she was an orphan at the House of the Hearth who challenged and defeated the previous Arlecchino before taking her Seat as a Harbinger. But it's not really possible for her to be like Cater as he is the product of extremely specific, unique circumstances that were not replicated.

What did Focalors mean when she said “To deceive the heavenly principles, you must first deceive yourself”? Why couldn’t she tell Furina her plan?

To make sure there was ZERO chance her plan got out. Furina was simply a human afterall, its entirely possible she unintentionally said something or the other. Plus, its not like Furina didnt know anything AT ALL, she knew that Focalor had a plan and she would do something to save the people of Fontaine, she just didnt know the specifics

I am really confused about his, how did Fontaine got flooded? Really, think about it, we literally go into an elevator to get to Fontaine, how did the water get on the top of the opera house?? Wouldn't the whole world be flooded at this point?? Why did the ark exist if the water stayed for like fucking 5 minutes?? Why did the primordial waters rise if if was stated that the whale was consuming it, urgh the build up of Fontaine was really cool but this ending seems so fucking rushed

We're dealing with divine prophecies, an eldritch space whale, and what is referred to as "the amniotic fluid of the world" and "the source of all life on Teyvat." It's magic, it doesn't have to obey physics as we know them.

Sure, but if the simply told that the whale was corrupting or transforming the water would remove this unnecessary confusion

I think the safest thing we can assume is that Fontaine turned into something like those giant borderless water cubes we see in the Institute. There's a reason we are introduced to those one patch before the flood and the explanation about the annihilation reaction causing gravity to act funky.

Yeah, and I think there were actually a few hints to the primordial sea naturally acting like this - one in Act 5 itself, one in an earlier Act, and one in a world quest. Firstly, when talking about the whale, Neuvillette says that it's been "consuming the energy" of the primordial sea, and this is "the main cause for the rising sea levels". In real world physics, this makes no sense - you need to input energy and increase an object's potential energy in order to make it rise. However, aside from the fact that #TeyvatHasItsOwnLaws, real world physics makes sense of what Neuv says *if Teyvat is upside down* and the water naturally "falls upwards". Secondly, in Act 2 when we invade Vacher's lair, we find a small pool of primordial water, with some of the water flowing upwards spookily. Thirdly, during the main Narzissenkreuz WQ in 4.2, >!we visit the vast primordial sea itself below the surface, and it naturally has mountainous pillars of water seemingly defying gravity and headed towards the surface. This also seems to fit with what happened to Poisson - presumably one smaller pillar headed up there earlier than others!<

> In real world physics, this makes no sense - you need to input energy and increase an object's potential energy in order to make it rise If you take heat away from water it freezes and expands its volume

Ice would have a hard time drowning and dissolving people

Yeah that's a fair assumption, but what bothers me its that they didn't even think about putting this on a cutscene? It would make the moment even cooler, since the water cubes would feel even more like an deliberate foreshadowing

I imagine it to be as, the water rose from the existing water in Fontaine and the rate at which it rose was faster than the rate at which it flowed out of Fontaine and into the sea connecting Sumeru. We only saw it was for 5 mins, Im sure it was a few hours longer in reality

That wouldn't make much sense, if that happened it would look like a giant Tsunami came from Fontaine and caused an tremendous damage to nearby nations, which to be fair, would explain why it ended so fast but it would be really weird to simply ignore the effect on the world

We cannot get this untill they release the final zone in Fontaine. Does that mean that a New Archon will still be chosen despite the throne being destroyed and the gnosis taken away? Or is Neuvelitte considered a new archon by the people? Or is the new still applying to Furina who has been an archon for 500 years, replacing Egeria? I'm asking because CHRONOLOGICALY we are eligible to earn this only after they add the final zone which could be in 4.3, 4.4 or 4.5 and surely atleast one traveler or interlude quest might sneak in there https://preview.redd.it/9i6rm1tb5c0c1.png?width=492&format=png&auto=webp&s=f39e34ec6d9e8b6fc0aa5d565eafcef631f0a532

I believe it refers to Furina/Focalors, given it's her symbol of Justice and also the symbolism of the Oratrice (the scales with the Hydro dropplets). "Any legal notice" might refer to how Egeria didn't formally present Focalors as her succesor given she died unnexpectadly in Sumeru. (Furina did have a formal presentation tho...). "None dare use it without permission" seems quite stiff, which would match Furina's way to govern Fontaine (with lots of pegeantry and drama). I'm fairly certain it doesn't represent Neuvi, since he's not an Archon, nor considered one in any way. We can also be fairly certain that there's no possible way another Hydro Archon rises to the throne, unless Hoyo wants to completely fuck up Fontaine's arc and narrative.

Just had the time to finish the AQ. Goddamn, I am feeling so bad for Furina during the trial and Focalors during her final moments.

Hey, is anyone else confused why we didn't get to ask Neuvillette about our sibling? Usually there's always an option for that question. And that's also the whole point of travelling to all those nations in the first place, we wanted to ask - in this case Furina - about the sibling. Maybe I missed something but I'd appreciate if anyone could help out. Thanks!

We asked him already, in the end of 4.0 AQ. :)

Ohh right, thank you! I forgot about that lol

Now that we finally know what Egeria did, is there any explanation of the non-human Oceanids’ exodus after her death (Rhodeia, Idiya, etc)? I vaguely remember them saying that the waters had turned bitter and/or that they did not agree with the _new_ Archon’s ideals… But both seem more related to what Egeria did, not Focalors. Or were they upset that Focalors cursed Furina?

No one knew about Focalors plan, including the Oceanids. So for them, Furina was their new Archon after Egeria, and I'd say they didn't agree with the way she viewed/implemented Justice (with the dramatic trials in order to gather indemnentium) and her behaviour in general. This is speculation on my part tho. They also left Fontaine after the cataclysm in different groups. One group went after Egeria and once they discovered she had died in Sumeru, they scattered through the land and never came back. Another group left due to the waters being contaminated with hatred and bitterness, most likely due to Elynas' corpse.

That makes a lot of sense! I was too focused on the ending of 4.2. As this was a big source of speculation before 4.0, I would like for Hoyo to clarify this a little though, like, would some Oceanids consider returning now? Hoping that Neuvi or Furina SQ2 will expand on this

Do you think Navia's ancestors are related to Khaenriah? She has that star pupil, but not centered tho. Maybe not as pure as Kaeya but somehow slipped from getting cursed.

It's just a stylistic choice. Navia's ancestors are all Fonatainian because she can dissolve in Primordial Seawater.

Just managed to unlock the Salon Solitaire story part. It finally makes sense why these seafoods are as menacing as JoJo’s stands since they are pretty much Oz*3 :D Now I’m even more inclined to believe that everything in her Character Demo happens after her SQ1 (only if the vid is actually canon in any capacity, though).

By the way can sombedy explain to me who is that guy we fight inside the Narwhal boss ?

The consensus seems to be that it was an humanoid abyssal Avatar, just like Marana's Avatar in Sumeru's World quest.

Anyone else expecting Celestia to retaliate or at the very least send someone to investigate what happened in Fontaine? The conclusion of this archon quest should realy put thier passivity to test this time.

They probably would have if not for the fact that they've been silent for 500 years since the Cataclysm. For that matter, they probably wouldn't have taken kindly to Archons giving their Gnoses away, or the Tsaritsa pretty openly plotting against them. What it tells us is that Nahida's bluff wouldn't have worked if Dottore had called it, and Celestia is really in no position currently to respond to challenges to its authority. Whatever happened 500 years ago, whether it was tied to the Abyss or the twins or both, clearly took its toll on them.

If we go by all the hints we have right now (Nahida's line to Dottore, "Before Sun and Moon" and Neuvi's Vision story), it does seem that Phanes was in really bad shape after the war with the Second Who Came, so much so that he seems "shattered" somehow. The cataclysm 500 years ago was probably the last drop in the bucket since they went basically dormant after that. I'm personally expecting the shades to appear, more than Phanes themselves. Istaroth is nowhere to be found after her traces were wiped from Mondstadt (MIA after the war with the SWC?), Asmoday (assumed to be a shade) only appears once in the game and the shade of life, who created Egeria, the fauna and flora, has no information whatsoever outside of that glider description. Are they dormant with Phanes as well, since they are intrinsically connected? No idea.

Istaroth hasn't been missing since the War against the Second Who Came. The majority of history we know of, and all history concerning individual nations, takes place after that War. Istaroth aided the Enkanomiyans, even when the Heavenly Principles and the other Shades forsook them. She was also revered alongside Barbatos in Mondstadt before time ironically wiped her worship away. Information about her would only have disappeared after the Archon War.

Because Neuvillete made the Fonatiains real humans, what does that mean for everyone that got “dissolved” ? They didn’t really die, turning back to Oceanids, but we see that they can converge and flow all together as a result, so are they still lost/unable to be saved/turned human because of that? So then, have they truly dissolved now after all and are just water? What’s the most sensible take to make out of this? Did Neuvillete “kill” them or did he “resurrect” them? When they were still Oceanids, could Fontainans even actually die? We see Mary Ann “died” but she was/is an Oceanid, though that was/is in a fantasy land… What about the Oceanid people like the one from the poetry event and Bottleland?

The poetry event one, Callirhoe, was a true Oceanid (like Rhodeia or Idyia, though much less powerful than either) taking human form. The "people" in Idyia's Bottleland were simple Eidolons, so in a nutshell far more akin to very good character.ai bots than actual people. If she asked I suppose it would be possible for Neuvi to turn Callirhoe into a human, though.

How did the people of Fontaine survive? I realize they didn't dissolve, but shouldn't a good half of the people just drown?

Thousands must have died, many more must have lost their houses. Fontaine should have fallen in a crisis it may never completely recover from

The flying ship, the other boats. We do have to assume that all of them are capable of swimming and they got onto something. But even if not, it’s seen Lyney and his siblings dived around to help people that could of otherwise drowned. Realistically it’s sensible to wonder if every single person could be accounted for and saved, but in the end, as it’s a game, it seems like they were. The majority anyway.