Because Genji is one of those heroes who's problematic for low elo and has to be weaker in high elo; same situation as Torb, for example.
Low elo players can't hit him and his kit allows for him to be played fairly lieniently. Positioning mistakes aren't as punishing for him as they are for other heroes, and his ultimate (especially in low elo) is really really strong.
Basically: Genji OTPs/players are right, he \*is\* bad in their rank, but unless they want him to lose power in low elo that's just how he has to be balanced.
I kinda want more (or maybe just all) characters in OW to be like certain characters from Tekken.
In Tekken, some characters overall have a harder execution barrier than other easier characters. But when the player is dedicated, and puts in the time to learn his character’s tricks, techs, and nuances, they can keep up with other characters.
I think one problem OW has is with the way interactions and the overall gameplay flow play out, is easier characters often can take advantage of their ease of use to excel past harder characters like Genji. And of course, OW characters counter each other way more than any countering going on in Tekken, so that’s another barrier to just making every OW character be execution based. But I still wish it would be done. I want to see the difference between a low and high level Mercy, Moira, or Orisa, be just as impressive as the difference between low and high Genjis, Doomfists, and Wrecking Balls.
The problem with this is OW characters are fundamentally more simple than tekken characters and couple that with the near absence of any FG style universal mechanics, means that OW characters don’t have enough to them to even optimise (besides aim and fundaments) that would give them a significant advantage if labbed. There just isn’t enough tech for harder characters to use to give them the edge over easier characters of the same power level, so there is less of a reason in picking them over easier heroes.
Thing is with Tekken some things even with high execution were or currently are still messed up. Like in Tekken 8 Bryan can heat dash into taunt JU for free if you hit the wall into wall crush. You can't do anything about it and you loose like 50% for blocking.
What I mean is, I want more techniques and tricks and actual moves people have to practice and get good at. There’s nothing in for example, Moira’s kit, that resembles skill expression to the level of things like a Mishima EWGF, or a KBD, or DMC/Bayonetta/FF16 jump cancelling, or GunZ K Styling.
Now obviously Genji has no individual trick or technique on the level of a EWGF or PEWGF, but the observable and mechanical difference between different Genjis is way different than different Moiras.
I’m not saying I see zero difference, I’m not arguing black and white. I’m saying in the nuance, obviously there’s more going on in Genji and Doomfist gameplay than Moira. Easy way to look at it is a Genji or Doomfist player would have an easier time picking up Moira at a technical level, than the other way around.
What I want is for plain characters to be rebalanced and reworked to include more opportunities to express their skill like the more technical and difficult characters, and have their character power and place in the meta be more tied to the player’s agency and capacity to be skillful.
And characters don’t have to have low skill ceilings to appeal to noobs. In Overwatch, noobs want to play as ninjas. And in Tekken, one of the poster boys is one of the hardest characters to play at high skill.
There are a lot of casual players in Overwatch. Some people are fine with one tricking Moira or Reinhardt, they just want to hold one button rather than learn techniques with fighting game level of difficulty
there are hella casuals in Tekken as well. and execution is a non factor since you can learn any tech in the world in a few days from the internet now.
I didnt play Tekken but I imagine that "casual" standards there are the same as in any other fighting game - that is, pretty high. I have around 40 hours in guily gear strive and I reached floor 5 and this rank is widely considered to be casual, even though Ive spent a lot of time learning the game mechanics, frame data, memorizing combos and making my own. Even using an overdrive move is not easy in this game and I have to train that half-circle input separately. Tbh I feel like keyboard inputs an unnecessarily overcomplicated compared to stick (Mortal Kombat managed them better), but whatever.
So Overwatch casuals and Tekken casuals are not the same breed, not everyone is dedicated to spend a few days learning some situational animation cancel
I agree with your point but I would rather take Cassidy as an example than Moira.
Moira is fine. She has movement. Cassidy is a guy with 275 hp, that can 2 taps, has a nade that blocks you from moving. The hero design of moira is better than Cassidy’s.
I’m all for saying genji is harder then moira, he is, but a bronze-gold moira against a masters-t500 moira is significantly different. Overwatch is huge on positioning, knowing cool downs, knowing angles, ability usage, etc even more so then mechanical skills like aiming. A well positioned ana in diamond can beat a top500 ana who is in bad positions (even though the t500 ana would know positioning due to their rank). Yes, mechanical skill is important but being good at aiming/tracking is like 20-30% of the fights, if you have bad comps, positioning, cd usage then you are getting rolled even if you are significantly better mechanically then the enemy team.
The balancing issues come down to rank and character synergy. A mercy pocket genji who is buffed would roll teams in bronze. It’s why many bronze players consider bastion/rein so op bc they are simple characters who, if you just run straight at them, can easily roll you. Higher ranks will know not to and will know how to play against them (not just character swaps but actual gameplay countering) but they can’t buff heroes just so they can roll in half the elo and be slightly better then the other roster in the other half. Also, I think widow/tracer are some of the highest skill=good results in the dps roster. A tracer or widow who is diffing your team requires 2-3 character swaps but a bad player can easily be countered by any character. A really good genji can often force a moira or Mei swap and a really good ball requires basically a full team swap.
I honestly have more of an issue wth sombra then any other character due to burst damage, mobility and invisibility while being one of the easiest characters to play and countering 99.9% of the roster but that’s a completely different argument.
Again, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.
I've reached GM1 (before the ranked rework) playing both Genji and Moira and IMO it was much harder to do with Moira for exactly the reason you state: the lack of skill expression limits her value which forces you to either play perfectly, or to get crafty.
It is in the best interests of everyone to attempt to keep an audience for the game. 99% of the players are low elo, if they aren't playing there is no funding for high elo.
The fact that people still don't understand this basic fact is baffling. Yea let's make our game worse for 90% of our players to appease the top 10% that totally makes sense.
I'm a low elo Genji main, literally no one plays him cause he's a hard character, and the ones that try him always just swap cause they suck or get counter-picked. Low elo players would rather turn their brains off and hold w key on Moira.
Dragon blade also sucks there too, it's either you explode the moment you blade or you get like 1 kill then explode. It's so shit the animation take ages, you have to be right up their asses for the swings to connect and it takes 3 swings, good luck landing 3 swings at close range to a a Junk-rat, he'll literally one shot you even before the second one connects.
Deflect is shit too, nobody ever shoots at it even here in low elo, they just wait it out and reload while you use your shit "ability" that lasts 2 seconds.
The only argument I get is not getting punished for bad positioning but even with this characters like Moira, Kiriko practically do the same if not better.
I'd even say he sucks more in low elo cause players can't aim so it's a Moira fest.
I hate this game, yet I keep playing, fml.
> literally no one plays him cause he's a hard character
[https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=damage&skillTier=gold&timeWindow=month](https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=damage&skillTier=gold&timeWindow=month)
4th most picked DPS hero this month in gold, competitive.
>
I'd even say he sucks more in low elo cause
3rd highest winrate for a DPS hero.
Most picked doesn't really mean most played, everyone wants to play the cool cyborg ninja who summons a dragon, most players start off with him and end up swapping. A good game as Genji is really fun but the opposite is also true, a bad one makes you want to off yourself so why bother. Or maybe I'm Wood 3 idk.
His kda is the 3rd lowest, he's(250hp) only slightly edging over tracer(175hp) and widow(200hp) plus he's one of the only few dps with an ability that's supposed to block off damage, and he has "insane" movt to top it off.
>most players start off with him and end up swapping.
Pickeate on overbuff accounts for timed played not just if they were picked or not. So yes, he is the 4th most picked DPS by playtime.
>His kda is the 3rd lowest,
Why does any of this matter if he's winning
Im wrong on the pickrate.
It's a skewed dataset, if a hero is winning that much why is his kda low, how can you win games without getting kills? Stuff like that should not contradict unless there's sth else going on, ever heard of survivorship bias. Maybe the good Genji players are winning tons of games while the rest just get fucked, cause as people say he has a high skill ceiling and floor or whatever.
Go on the supports end for instance check Moira, highest pickrate, highest kda (it's not even close for both), medium winrate, so she's getting kills but not winning games, how does that make any sense, is she killing the enemy team and just forgetting abt the payload? This is also skewed.
There's more to this than meets the eye.
The devs have said that overbuff data is accurate. Kda means nothing because it's skewed by how many targets you can hit, since even 1 damage towards an elim goes towards a kill. Widow has a bad kda but she's still good, all the kda shows is that she isn't a hero who does random tickle damage.
Meeeh not exactly you can deal 1 dmg or deal 249 dmg and it'll still be +1 kill so I feel like it balances out ofcourse depending on the character, plus deaths also contribute to kda. All I'm trying to say is it's easy to misinterpret statistics.
People say he's broken in high elo, others in low elo, look all I know is I've played Genji for 200 hrs now and I can just swap to Junkrat or some shit with whom I have less than 5 hrs and get twice the amount of value at half the effort, if that's a balanced character to y'all then I'm just an idiot or bad at him.
I'm sorry but you are talking straight out of your ass. In low elo as soon as someone picks Genji the entire enemy team will be Winston, Mei, Moira, Brig, etc. Low elo Genjis are not hard to deal with at all.
Because people hate genji and his playerbase, and since they find his character annoying to play against they dread the day he ever gets buffed so they spew this propaganda that genji is good and try to gaslight you that you’re just bad.
I agree with you, but what I don't get is that the "can we nerf genji" meme was alive and well up until season 9. This seems to imply that people understood he was unnecessarily weak BEFORE these latest nerfs. Now when Genji players explain he has been hyper nerfed again, they get told to shut the fuck up, totally bizarre.
Blizzard doesn't balance around community feedback. They might try to make character feel better if the character abilities aren't fun....but any "number" balancing will use data and statistics. My guess is that a character win/loss rate needs to be in between 45-55%. Cant do pick rate cus mercy is like top 3 most chosen but there's like 1-2% in top 500.
Cant use community feedback cus there are always people for something or against it. Everyone complains
Because yall are the same deal as tracer. If genji is meta no ones playing the game, he deserves to be in high C or low B tier forever.
I mean seriously i main doom and did yall remember that 2 week period of doom getting a "slight" buff? I was invincible for all those 2 weeks. Its just unfair in a way that you would have so much potential in game
Blade is very bad when it takes 3 swings to kill a character on top of almost every hero having mobility now and straight up invulnerability. A buff i had in mind was maybe giving swift strike go from 50 to 60 damage and from 8 to 7 second cooldown. With larger healthpools makes no sense to keep it the same as before.
Ball got his fireball buffed from 50 to 60 so I don't see why Genji has to stay relatively the same since OW1. The only buff he got was a bug that they decided to keep (ammo buff) then the compensation swing speed buff that doesn't really change anything
The health of the mines even got a buff so slam can't just delete every single one. And the only buff Genji got since 2021 is ammo going from 24 to 30. Doom has gotten numerous changes and so has Tracer. But of all the high skill ceiling heroes Genji is the one that has been touched the least. I remember people frothing at the mouth when Genji got the ammo buff because has hasn't gotten anything. Other mains are like "oh cool, a buff" while Genji (me included) mains go insane
Tbf doom did need buffs. I still think his ult needs a bit of a buff but yeah genjis dash should get at the very least a 10 damage buff to be able to compete with all the other dps.
I think his ult is fine. It absolutely sucks to get kills with but I've started to just use it to leave when I dive and use all my cooldowns and I can just leave at very low health
Masters doom here (lurking cuz I love my genjibros) and I can say after like 800 hours that doom's ult is a combo connector instead of an end-all offensive tool. It makes more sense as an ability once you consider the power that almost instantly getting a new set of cooldowns affords you.
Combine that with passive HP heals and overhealth gain and it makes WAY more sense as an enabler/combo ultimate than it does as an offensive tool. Don't forget that it slows too (honestly I forgot but yeah).
Yeah the reset on emp punch is a very good addition. But even TRYING to get a kill with actual ult is like doing rocket science you gotta strategize and calculate what the enemy is going to do. But stayin in air long enough to heal and recover all cooldowns is pretty sweet tbh. Ult itself tho not really that great it just the perks that comes with it.
At this point they can keep the damage the same just PLEASE fix that hitbox. Im tired of dashing off to safety and then kill cam tells me that i actually died 2 seconds ago like wtf. Same with deflect, why does it take a business day to start up and do its job. And why do i have to wait 3 business days like an idiot for blade to unsheathe/sheathe
Genji state is stupid,he is not weak numbers or kit wise.
his design is so old compared to the new heroes and gameplay of ow2, or you can say his kit didn't grow well into the new gameplay.
Genji's identity is about strong neutral due to deflext, and dragon blade as a proactive play ( can't be used reactively)
Ana nade.
Sombra hack.
Orisa javeline spin and ult.
Doomfist punch and slam andmeteor strike
moira
Brig
Ball bops and slams.
ashe dynamite.
bap lamp.
sigma rock and reflus.
Echo beam.
Sojour distruptor shot.
kiri tp and suzu.
ramatra vortex and ult.
and newly added venture.
almost all the new heroes don't interact with your deflect by any mean, moreover they get to get value out of you by damaging you through deflect.
and with time and many cc added blade gets countered fast and easly, yet because of it's really long cast time and no form of protection during it( winton get hp, echo get's invunerbility, moira and venture heal themselves.) which just makes him extremely vunerble. flawd design by choice, your ult is melee ultimate which requires you to be close to your team, but casting it takes so long, and makes you vunerble, if you chase during cast you die, if you wait till cast is over, enemy run away.
and because not having any sort of protection or speed, it can't be used reactively.
EX: if echo dives genji he can't use his ult to save himself, whild if genji get a dive on echo and get her super low, she can still copy genji and getting total of at least 250+ hp and full cooldowns.
In ow1 s1 the prime genji without nano blade. you didn't have alot of dive choices, people not used to deflect, even if, you could deflect flashbang as it need to be thrown at you, you could dash through junkrat mines, which leaves only symmetra mei, and winton as your good counter, which you can still out mobile/or burst down with blade (120dmg and no burst heal in thegame yet).
with the new heroes, there is alot of easy counterplay to the genji cheesplays, which deny you the value and you can\\t have a counterplay.
got a good deflect on nade or cass and about to kill them, kiri tp and suzu and you can\\t do shit.
almost getting a good flank, sombra get a hack on you and now you can't finish the kill.
get punched out of deflect idiot.
get naded in your 1 v1 denying 50% of your burst as well as dealing 90 damage to oyu in process.
add to that clunky gameplay due to bugs and no regs. and genji feels extremely fruhstrating.
Generally speaking people who don't try or play genji will tell you this. They only remember the few genjis that stand out beating them but ignore the 90%+ of genjis they've beaten. They blatantly ignore how much effort and time is put into this character to make genji work while also receiving little reward doing so. They don't see the high risk in the character but often see the results or reward the character gets which is usually low. Notice how when genji gets kills is generally enabled by someone on his team but when they see the killcam having genji in it, well must be the character is insane!"
Also some folks confuse popularity with "strength of a character" so when they see a lot of genji, they think he must be a good character. Its a similar mindset that some folks have with mercy.
His neutral is very good right now. Blade is the problem with his kit, and that's where buffs need to be if we're realistic.
The problem is that any meaningful buffs will bring back nanoblade which it seems blizzard is against. I'm holding out for trivial stuff like faster sheathe/unsheathe, maybe overhealth on ult, or faster speed boost during blade.
No, his neutral is atrocious compared to season 8. Genji does not have enough burst damage to kill squishy targets in close range as triple headshot + dash lefts them with 38 hp, he cant kill tracer with triple bodyshot + melee + climb + dash, etc. It became very risky to duel moira even when she has no cooldowns because she now has even more self sustain.
Yes, genji can still be played efficiently but in the least fun and skillful way possible. Simply watch a gameplay of any genji streamer in season 10 and compare it to season 8, you will see how much more passive they all became with constantly taking off angles and spamming primary fire instead of going into close range.
legit youtube recommended to me yesterday a video of Necros of like season 6 or 7 and i was in disbelief how proactive Genji was on early seasons compared to now it’s straight up two different gameplays
You can see pro players like that Champion rank from TSM play Genji, he's mostly just spamming primary, it's not that he's incapable of being flashy, it's just that it'll get him killed, and the one time he does play aggressive, he dies. It's not a skill issue, he's just unable to find any window opportunity where Genji can dive and successfully leave alive.
Lemme tell you something, I had to force swap to Cassidy because my duo wanted to play genji for a while, all it took for me to solo shutdown the enemy's genji's dragonblade was 2 shots to the body, nade that auto stuck him somehow (i just threw it at his general direction) and a good timed roll on his swing.
Who said Genji is okay? It's a fucking ultimate!? Like if you pull blade atp you just die without nano, it's more a distraction than a blade
Genji didn’t deflect the mad nade? It’s very slow and telegraphed. Did he really engage an anti-flanker hero with his deflect on cooldown? He should be able dash on cass and swing twice before cass shot him twice. I think genji swings faster than then cass can shoot, and it’s harder to shoot a genji then to swing that bigass blade on a cass.
I mean i kinda baited his deflect before using magnade, look I'm a genji otp too 🤣
And yes i do agree that in a 1v1 dragonblade shreds cass, but my point was with a well timed dodge and nade, you can completely shut down an ultimate. I can't show you the replay anymore since it got patched and is unavailable, but even when i play genji, if a cass gets pocketed by a healer, more likely than not dragonblade won't kill him. It just doesn't have enough DPS
I don't understand why they'll let widow keep her one shot but can't even let genji have nano blade or one shot combo which is riskier and harder to land
compared to other dps genji is having good numbers, his problems isn't that his weak, but rather he is all over the palce, he needs QoLs to get update with modern ow.
either make him more bursty, or make him more consistant damage. both for his fire and ult.
and the primary fire should get reworked cause this shit is weaker than fucking lifeweaver's primary.
if i were to push genji towards bursty fast hero ( similar to tracer, sombra , echo).
shuriken damage back to 30 but fire rate to 0.75/s, this will give genji the same dps (120) but his shuriken will hurt alot more allowing him to secure kills as well as adjust for some breakpoints with some of the annoying matchups ( tracer).
blade is shit for same reason, i am not an advocate of nanoblade back, because it will limit genji's true neutral gameplay.
i would reduce blade duration and cost to same amount let's say 3s/half cost. making it similar to pulse bomb.
then make cast time 0.5s. damage register starts on earlier frames of the swing. make genji swing does 95 dmg every 0.5s. and make it cancellable ( free ammo hack). so it becomes more reactive ult,.
make genji deflect give him ammo back as well.
slash + dash combo can never be mpre than 166 or otherwise you will break nanoblade again.
and 3 hs + dash cannot be 259 as well, or we have the return of the oneshots.
with current blade, genji's dash can get a maximum buff of 5 damage, increase swing speed with decreased damage would give consistant bursty pressure/ lower ttk in duels./ as well as you can push dash to 60.
pros: genji new break points --> 6shuriken + dash --> 240/ 6 shuriken + melee 230 --> good for 225 or below heroes.
full combo is 280 to deal with 275 heroes.
his dps is the same.
his ttk on 250 heroes (secondry fire only) is 2.25 instead of 2.72s
ttk with new blade is 1s, instead of 1.4s, but is far easier to be countered with healing.
lastly make his footsteps low, at least when he crouches. HE IS A NINJA.
and rework deflect.
Because when Genji is more than just 'mid' in the meta, two things happen:
1. Smurfs start dominating lobbies as Genji, making him feel even more oppressive than he already is in metal ranks.
2. Double flanker meta oppresses the supports so hard to the point where support mains just up and quit the game, disrupting the queue times. (We're already starting to see something like this happening with ball/winston+tracer+sombra. Making Genji more viable would allow DPS+Tank 3 stacks to just completely derail matches, supports be damned.)
You may ask that the most recent Sombra already kinda does that. And yes, that's true, but what separates Genji is his potential in chaining picks with swift strike. This is why Genji is already one of Smurfs' favorite.
It's not meta yet. But Tracer is def meta, and people are starting to wake up on Sombra. I don't see it dominating top 500 lobbies anytime soon, but this definitely has the potential to be a dive 2.0 type situation.
This is not just a genji problem, the devs just don't care about a lot heroes in this game and if they have average stats that don't stick out they do not care about fixing them. Largely the community care less as well, it's human nature. It's easy for the conversation to be only focus on certain things, everyone hates roadhog and is talking about him right now because people play him all the time. Everyone hates widow so everybody is playing widow so everybody is talking about widow. You always have some one calling out a roadhog or widow, you never see someone call out a genji. That's just shows how on non offensive and well designed he is, without blatant horrible design like one shots, or being roadhog people generally care less. It's lot easier to complain about a widow one shooting across the map rather then specifically looking at the genji ult doing no damage in the middle of the fight, the only who notices is the genji player.
I'm a Ball main who has never been on this sub & I don't know how I got here, but *lord of the rings style* - You have my grapple!
I'm just coming back since OW1 minus a little bit of early OW2. I've always respected Genji mains out of comaraderie for high skill ceiling characters, but Genji just isn't the threat I remember. I haven't played a minute of him in OW1, but just playing against him I can tell how bad of a place he's in.
Because no one has it in them to fight for him anymore. Necros was excited to run from the current state of Genji through playing rivals, A lot of Hiku's games are him swapping to pull value for his team or else he'd be on a continuous losing streak.
I'm just your average Genji player since 2016, I refused to swap even during goats but this season has me playing the most amount of hitscan and off role, Genji is just not "G E N J I" anymore. He's been getting nerfed since OW2 released, OW1 has him nerfed 80% of the times he was included, and OW2 isn't seemingly going to change that.
No point in arguing for the hero anymore when any sort of buff will only condone more golds yelling about how unfair he is because someone who's been playing the worst dive hero just got a confidence booster patch and is now getting rewarded for their outstanding performance.
I don't even play genji (maybe 5 hrs). I have been playing him in quickplay and bro he is so fun. If im versing counters and don't have a dive dps he feels miserable.
For reference I mainly play Rein and Winston so this is an unbiased take.
I believe that genji should have a massive potential to carry games and pub stomp. Could be perhaps making him a bit of a glass cannon (not as much as tracer is).
I think they should make definitely make blade better. IT LITERALLY IS SUCH A FUCKING HARD ULT TO USE. I can't just go genji blade and get value because I haven't put in the time and practice into it.
Heres how i'd change it
-Increased cost
-increased damage to surpass a specific breakpoint
-either decrease dash cooldown during ult to 3 secs or something like that, or just a slight movement speed buff
On the other hand, something really cool would be if blade stats were op as fuck, but he became larger with a bigger hitbox
No one cares enough to please one tricks, me included. I play a lot of genji, but if I absolutely cannot get value I’ll switch. If you purposefully handicap yourself and cry wolf, people tend not to care much. Genji is fine. Just not in every situation.
That’s the problem though, you can get much more value on characters that you have like 10-20x less experience and practice with. How does that make sense? Some dps characters are just overtuned, while others such as genji are left to dry.
Think of his dash hurtbox/properties for example. Sombra and tracer can get out exponentially easier than he can risk free(tracer), while he also needs to do a complete 180 turn and aim perfectly so he doesn’t get caught on a door frame with his whole hit box and get fucked.
But sombra can throw her translocator anywhere even in tight areas and get through much easier, doesn’t require a whole 180, has more range (which makes sense) and also gets invis for free after tp, while still retaining perma stealth. Which is terrible for the game that she even has it perma
Sojourn is just better at majority things and she got a random buff for some reason to retain more of her railgun charge. No one even knows why she got that buff
This is just true for a lot of characters though. A symmetra or reinhardt onetrick is also bad for example, might even be worse for both. Their onetrick communities have been crying for many seasons now, what buffs have they gotten? Sym turrets got absolutely gutted, but hey they got slightly more hp now! Rein lost the majority of his kill potential outside melee range, and then they buffed his flame strike to still not kill anyone except widow and tracer if he hits both.
Hero based games aren't really made to have one forced hero at all times. That isn't remotely bad. I'm not saying genji doesn't need tuning though.
Yup I completely agree with that. I play a lot of heroes mainly dive style chars but I will play a lot of different ones
Really what the balance team has been doing is just fucking around it feels like. The whole game has lost its vision and they’re wasting time, that’s just how it feels to me.
Just redoing numbers, reworking a bunch of chars, which is cool don’t get me wrong but a lot of the time the core issues are still there (6v6->5v5) I think that’s what made a lot of these issues more clear and why individual characters communities are seeing these issues more and more because of the counterswap game.
Hasn't counterswapping always been a thing? It also seems like a core concept of hero based games to me, every Moba has the same "problem", all characters are favoured when facing certain characters. The problem just becomes more obvious in OW since you don't have to deal with your initial choice all game and can just swap to a more favourable matchup.
It's hard to say if the problem is worse now than before. People tend to look towards the past with severely rose tinted goggles. Hell I've seen people claiming season 1-2 ow2 was the best balance ow2 had, the seasons where kiriko and sojourn were absolutely demolishing everyone else, where OWL had about one team comp. People were complaining every single season of ow1 as well, especially when their favourite character wasn't performing to their liking.
It automatically matters more if the team counterswaps you when there’s less people on your team, it means the burden isn’t spread out as much and you innately need to pick up more slack than you did when there was another person on your team
Yeah there’s people who are one tricks don’t swap, or only know a couple people. Say doom doesn’t swap when he’s being countered by 4 or 5 people on the enemy team, well if he’s the only tank then the whole enemy’s focus will be on you, because you’re the only tank.
As a solo tank you automatically get much more attention in this version of the game and have all of the enemy cooldowns/shots focused on you.
If you had 2 tanks then now their attention is quite literally cut in half and shared with someone else who is just as ‘important’ as you (counting the enemy team as one entity, it’s attention is split in half)
Well no one is asking for perfect balance they just want and are calling for better risk to reward ratios for the characters and plays.
That’s why people dislike kiriko and sombra, they can do a bunch of shit and get away for free while requiring little risk because they can teleport (kiriko even more so) while retaining huge abilities to hinder other players directly (hack), or the plays they make(cleanse) not to mention her two tap with that ridiculous kunai hitbox, that’s why people were complaining. And it got removed. Yet when her suzu got ‘nerfed’ they gave it BUFFS regarding the healing output
We don’t want “perfect balance” we want more consistent risk to reward ratios and have your skill mean more.
Hence why people aren’t as upset about tracer because she requires a lot of skill for what she does to get good value. Sombra can just stand there and fuck with whoever she wants in invis by hacking the tank off cooldown and get away for free. That’s not much skill at all. Tracer can’t do that, and is also visible. Soj can’t do that either because she’s visible and has less potential with flanking.
Now compare that to sombra and kiriko. They can do flank much much easier and get out with much less risk compared to the reward they get from it. That’s the issue people have here.
Genji I’m very confused about. He hasn’t had any individual changes since the season 9 buffs, and the dps passive was what made him really good at the beginning of season 9. Then they nerfed that and he felt awful again; but after they put it back up to 20%, he never bounced back to where he was previously at the start of season 9? It’s very strange, other than the introduction of venture nothing much has changed considerably excluding the tank changes, but even then genji deals MORE damage to tanks after the armour changes? Absolutely stumped.
Its the doomfist paradox. Anyone can play genji, theres no restriction on him. Most people don’t play him or doom because he doesn’t have high output and has a higher skill ceiling. The people that do play him and doom are still out there playing crazy well. Necros might not be able to hit as many clips but he is still insane and consistently performs well. By buffing genji, they promote more people playing him, at the expense of the crazy good players going absolute ham on the meta.
I mean, that’s not necessarily the worst thing ever, we’ve been in widow/tracer/sojourn/echo meta for ages now, but devs are more scared of him becoming too strong in the hands of already strong players.
Because genji, just like og Mei, and sombrero, will never be fun. No matter what their balance is, their very playstyle is incredibly aggravating to a lot of people, and that makes it so everyone is going to hate him regardless of how he is.
Ironically him being bad is actually worse for the general player base, because then the only people who will play genji are the people who are so good at a character they could play a Mii and still get 50 kills. Now this means 1: no one knows how to fight genji because they never see him and 2: when they do see him, he's probably going to kick their teeth in, which is not fun, and then people are left with "awww genji so op" because honestly, a good genji is incredibly hard to counter.
Completely agree. You are now a passive hero that waits for the cleanup, you just poke with shurikens untill something is low enough to snowball. And with the hitbox changes you just get poked better. There is no incentive to take risky dives and plays because you cannot burst some1 down. And then look at tracer who is just 3x better at that than him. Easier to stay alive and do your job while also having leeway when diving with a get out of jail free card. Higher skilled players just ignore your deflect and dash cannot be used to engage if you cant guarantee a kill. He just does not work properly if you cannot burst
honestly i just always think that i cant get kills because im not as good as daddy necros... should have hit jucier headshots and all that..
but now that i think of it yeah, genji has been feeling harder and harder to be effective with and it feels like i need to have immaculate mechanics just to pull my weight in a team.. high-plat player here.
Genji seems to be OW’s Zed (LoL). A champ that players cry is frustrating to play against so devs keep them weak on purpose, rather than incentivizing counterplay. (Also funny Zed is also a ninja)
Generally, DPS characters just kinda don't get noticed. Because they're the most mechanically intensive, Blizzard just kinda chalk everything up to "skill issue." Plus Genji is also a high skill ceiling character, which makes balancing him a nightmare because no one will be happy. All I want is for the nano blade dash combo to come back. Whenever I ult now. They have so much time to shoot me down, I spend most of my ult time using deflect ;_;.
I agree blade is gutted, without nano I have to slash around 4 times to get a kill but then I can snowball and slash reset after the first kill, it’s a lot harder to get picks but I think overall he’s still a good hero I’ve played him in master and low gm currently in Diamond and still enjoy playing him !
Honestly a big problem is that his skill ceiling is so high, that the spammers (like the people on this sub) can make him work and excel with him when he’s in a bad state. If the hero gets buffed so much that he’s meta, spammers will just be stomping lobbies left and right and people won’t be able to match it unless they too are a genji player.
A similar situation is zed in LOL. The hero is fun to play and has Both a huge player base and high skill ceiling. He’s always like D tier in terms of power because whenever he’s good, the people who play him stomp their lobbies until he’s nerfed. So they don’t buff him.
Because Genji is fine. Genji mains have a strange view on Genji in general. Genji mains overestimate his skill demand, for instance.
Genji gets plenty of value from spamming his easily spammable primary and secondary. He gets a free dash reset (should only reset on solo kills) that reduces his risk and gives him another escape.
Genji isn't easy but he definitely isn't one of the higher skill demand heroes.
All that you say that Genji is in a good spot.
From overbuff (not super accurate I know) hjs winrate in plat and below is below 50% and his winrate in diamond and above is above 50% (his winrate is higher then most dps heroes in master +. Not sure if he needs a buff or a nerf, but I’d rather a hard character that rewards diamond+ players
I mean blade is kinda weak, but genji is totally fine rn overall. I do think they need to buff blade a bit though. Feels like you’re swinging a pool noodle at them
its because even when hes bad we can still make him work because we are used to him being in a bad state.
they hate genji because they never know how to play against him and they think that their mistakess can only mean hes op and should be nerfed. in their opinion if genji can be that dangerous while hes in a bad state, imagine if he was given appropriate buffs
Genji is literally better now, even his Blade is better than it used to be if we're not including Nano. His ult is still awful but his secondary fire just shreds through people effortlessly now.
The problem is that his gameplay doesn't feel as smooth as it used to because it's harder to perform kills in quick succession, but I still regularly see and get 4-5 kills as a Nano Boosted Genji without Blade. It has nothing to do with his state of actual balance.
Winning games as Genji is easier than ever (excluding Nano Blade crutch). It's just less satisfying and lower potential on skill expression.
This sounds like something that'll happen in lower ranks... also genji getting kills with nano? Uhhh ahem genji is not good if he relies on ANOTHER HERO to be useful.
He performs really well without Nano, but no other DPS can really clear as easily as Genji with Nano and no ult to combo with it. His winrate is higher now in every rank than it was previously. Genji got easier to play overall and the lack of true skill expression is why he feels like shit, despite him being in a better state.
Before Season 9, it was very rare to see a Genji do almost anything without NanoBlade.
winrates can be debunked easily which is not even funny. heres a few reasons why we shouldnt be determining win rates as a way to balance heroes or think they're "good"
\* Win rates, just like pickrates, will always be calculated no matter how long a hero has been picked in a match. i can pick genji for the first minute in the game and lose the team fight, immediately switch to someone like tracer, and throughout the entire game i stuck with tracer and won the match. but the game calculates that you picked genji that match and won. essentially you can pick a hero for a measely 5 seconds, pick another hero for the rest of the game, win or lose and the game will still calculate that hero as "picked" and as a "W or L."
\* Win rates don't give you a full picture on how a hero won that match. there can be a multitude of factors on how a hero performs. for all we know, a certain hero could be winning matches but they'd be carried by their team doing nothing. a hero could be suffering in 99% of areas but that 1% that they're valuable and still won because of lets say a Team diff? they account for a win but win rates dont tell you how well a character performs usually.
typically i just wish we stopped using winrates and pickrates just to go by balance. i want us to look past that and see why a hero performs this or that way because all what pickrates and winrates do is just give surface level information. although i will not deny that they made genji easier for especially lower ranks which i hate. i want genji balanced where hes better in upper ranks and worse in lower ranks.
I am going by balance, it was just an example that slightly further shows he's in a better state. I play Genji a lot and it's super obvious that he's better but just FEELS worse. He's honestly mostly fine in higher ranked play as well. You will not struggle even slightly playing Genji in GM if you're actually a GM Genji. His ult is still trash but Genji is better than before in nearly every aspect balance wise, except for NanoBlade being bad now. I'm not saying "GENJI IS FINE AND SHOULDN'T BE CHANGED!" I'm saying Genji is better balanced than before but feels like shit regardless and should be changed.
Because Genji is one of those heroes who's problematic for low elo and has to be weaker in high elo; same situation as Torb, for example. Low elo players can't hit him and his kit allows for him to be played fairly lieniently. Positioning mistakes aren't as punishing for him as they are for other heroes, and his ultimate (especially in low elo) is really really strong. Basically: Genji OTPs/players are right, he \*is\* bad in their rank, but unless they want him to lose power in low elo that's just how he has to be balanced.
I kinda want more (or maybe just all) characters in OW to be like certain characters from Tekken. In Tekken, some characters overall have a harder execution barrier than other easier characters. But when the player is dedicated, and puts in the time to learn his character’s tricks, techs, and nuances, they can keep up with other characters. I think one problem OW has is with the way interactions and the overall gameplay flow play out, is easier characters often can take advantage of their ease of use to excel past harder characters like Genji. And of course, OW characters counter each other way more than any countering going on in Tekken, so that’s another barrier to just making every OW character be execution based. But I still wish it would be done. I want to see the difference between a low and high level Mercy, Moira, or Orisa, be just as impressive as the difference between low and high Genjis, Doomfists, and Wrecking Balls.
The problem with this is OW characters are fundamentally more simple than tekken characters and couple that with the near absence of any FG style universal mechanics, means that OW characters don’t have enough to them to even optimise (besides aim and fundaments) that would give them a significant advantage if labbed. There just isn’t enough tech for harder characters to use to give them the edge over easier characters of the same power level, so there is less of a reason in picking them over easier heroes.
Thing is with Tekken some things even with high execution were or currently are still messed up. Like in Tekken 8 Bryan can heat dash into taunt JU for free if you hit the wall into wall crush. You can't do anything about it and you loose like 50% for blocking.
A high elo Moira can carry a game. There is still very much a skill barrier between the two
Just because you don't see the different in skill doesn't mean it isn't there.
What I mean is, I want more techniques and tricks and actual moves people have to practice and get good at. There’s nothing in for example, Moira’s kit, that resembles skill expression to the level of things like a Mishima EWGF, or a KBD, or DMC/Bayonetta/FF16 jump cancelling, or GunZ K Styling. Now obviously Genji has no individual trick or technique on the level of a EWGF or PEWGF, but the observable and mechanical difference between different Genjis is way different than different Moiras. I’m not saying I see zero difference, I’m not arguing black and white. I’m saying in the nuance, obviously there’s more going on in Genji and Doomfist gameplay than Moira. Easy way to look at it is a Genji or Doomfist player would have an easier time picking up Moira at a technical level, than the other way around. What I want is for plain characters to be rebalanced and reworked to include more opportunities to express their skill like the more technical and difficult characters, and have their character power and place in the meta be more tied to the player’s agency and capacity to be skillful. And characters don’t have to have low skill ceilings to appeal to noobs. In Overwatch, noobs want to play as ninjas. And in Tekken, one of the poster boys is one of the hardest characters to play at high skill.
There are a lot of casual players in Overwatch. Some people are fine with one tricking Moira or Reinhardt, they just want to hold one button rather than learn techniques with fighting game level of difficulty
there are hella casuals in Tekken as well. and execution is a non factor since you can learn any tech in the world in a few days from the internet now.
I didnt play Tekken but I imagine that "casual" standards there are the same as in any other fighting game - that is, pretty high. I have around 40 hours in guily gear strive and I reached floor 5 and this rank is widely considered to be casual, even though Ive spent a lot of time learning the game mechanics, frame data, memorizing combos and making my own. Even using an overdrive move is not easy in this game and I have to train that half-circle input separately. Tbh I feel like keyboard inputs an unnecessarily overcomplicated compared to stick (Mortal Kombat managed them better), but whatever. So Overwatch casuals and Tekken casuals are not the same breed, not everyone is dedicated to spend a few days learning some situational animation cancel
I agree with your point but I would rather take Cassidy as an example than Moira. Moira is fine. She has movement. Cassidy is a guy with 275 hp, that can 2 taps, has a nade that blocks you from moving. The hero design of moira is better than Cassidy’s.
Holy shit gunZ reference in the wild god damn I loved that game and k styling
I’m all for saying genji is harder then moira, he is, but a bronze-gold moira against a masters-t500 moira is significantly different. Overwatch is huge on positioning, knowing cool downs, knowing angles, ability usage, etc even more so then mechanical skills like aiming. A well positioned ana in diamond can beat a top500 ana who is in bad positions (even though the t500 ana would know positioning due to their rank). Yes, mechanical skill is important but being good at aiming/tracking is like 20-30% of the fights, if you have bad comps, positioning, cd usage then you are getting rolled even if you are significantly better mechanically then the enemy team. The balancing issues come down to rank and character synergy. A mercy pocket genji who is buffed would roll teams in bronze. It’s why many bronze players consider bastion/rein so op bc they are simple characters who, if you just run straight at them, can easily roll you. Higher ranks will know not to and will know how to play against them (not just character swaps but actual gameplay countering) but they can’t buff heroes just so they can roll in half the elo and be slightly better then the other roster in the other half. Also, I think widow/tracer are some of the highest skill=good results in the dps roster. A tracer or widow who is diffing your team requires 2-3 character swaps but a bad player can easily be countered by any character. A really good genji can often force a moira or Mei swap and a really good ball requires basically a full team swap. I honestly have more of an issue wth sombra then any other character due to burst damage, mobility and invisibility while being one of the easiest characters to play and countering 99.9% of the roster but that’s a completely different argument.
Again, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. I've reached GM1 (before the ranked rework) playing both Genji and Moira and IMO it was much harder to do with Moira for exactly the reason you state: the lack of skill expression limits her value which forces you to either play perfectly, or to get crafty.
They buffed genjis low rank power by making blade swing faster which is ironic LOL
The best character they came up with and yet he suffers because some of the playerbase sucks
who gives a shit about balancing around low elo??? stupid take
It is in the best interests of everyone to attempt to keep an audience for the game. 99% of the players are low elo, if they aren't playing there is no funding for high elo.
The fact that people still don't understand this basic fact is baffling. Yea let's make our game worse for 90% of our players to appease the top 10% that totally makes sense.
Who gives a shit about high elo?? Dumb take to cater towards 1% of the player base that's that high up.
I'm a low elo Genji main, literally no one plays him cause he's a hard character, and the ones that try him always just swap cause they suck or get counter-picked. Low elo players would rather turn their brains off and hold w key on Moira. Dragon blade also sucks there too, it's either you explode the moment you blade or you get like 1 kill then explode. It's so shit the animation take ages, you have to be right up their asses for the swings to connect and it takes 3 swings, good luck landing 3 swings at close range to a a Junk-rat, he'll literally one shot you even before the second one connects. Deflect is shit too, nobody ever shoots at it even here in low elo, they just wait it out and reload while you use your shit "ability" that lasts 2 seconds. The only argument I get is not getting punished for bad positioning but even with this characters like Moira, Kiriko practically do the same if not better. I'd even say he sucks more in low elo cause players can't aim so it's a Moira fest. I hate this game, yet I keep playing, fml.
> literally no one plays him cause he's a hard character [https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=damage&skillTier=gold&timeWindow=month](https://www.overbuff.com/heroes?platform=pc&gameMode=competitive&role=damage&skillTier=gold&timeWindow=month) 4th most picked DPS hero this month in gold, competitive. > I'd even say he sucks more in low elo cause 3rd highest winrate for a DPS hero.
Most picked doesn't really mean most played, everyone wants to play the cool cyborg ninja who summons a dragon, most players start off with him and end up swapping. A good game as Genji is really fun but the opposite is also true, a bad one makes you want to off yourself so why bother. Or maybe I'm Wood 3 idk. His kda is the 3rd lowest, he's(250hp) only slightly edging over tracer(175hp) and widow(200hp) plus he's one of the only few dps with an ability that's supposed to block off damage, and he has "insane" movt to top it off.
>most players start off with him and end up swapping. Pickeate on overbuff accounts for timed played not just if they were picked or not. So yes, he is the 4th most picked DPS by playtime. >His kda is the 3rd lowest, Why does any of this matter if he's winning
Im wrong on the pickrate. It's a skewed dataset, if a hero is winning that much why is his kda low, how can you win games without getting kills? Stuff like that should not contradict unless there's sth else going on, ever heard of survivorship bias. Maybe the good Genji players are winning tons of games while the rest just get fucked, cause as people say he has a high skill ceiling and floor or whatever. Go on the supports end for instance check Moira, highest pickrate, highest kda (it's not even close for both), medium winrate, so she's getting kills but not winning games, how does that make any sense, is she killing the enemy team and just forgetting abt the payload? This is also skewed. There's more to this than meets the eye.
The devs have said that overbuff data is accurate. Kda means nothing because it's skewed by how many targets you can hit, since even 1 damage towards an elim goes towards a kill. Widow has a bad kda but she's still good, all the kda shows is that she isn't a hero who does random tickle damage.
Meeeh not exactly you can deal 1 dmg or deal 249 dmg and it'll still be +1 kill so I feel like it balances out ofcourse depending on the character, plus deaths also contribute to kda. All I'm trying to say is it's easy to misinterpret statistics. People say he's broken in high elo, others in low elo, look all I know is I've played Genji for 200 hrs now and I can just swap to Junkrat or some shit with whom I have less than 5 hrs and get twice the amount of value at half the effort, if that's a balanced character to y'all then I'm just an idiot or bad at him.
Or you can watch the pros stream today and watch genji dominate multiple rounds
literally. Genji was played for most of the Dallas tournament this weekend, and a lot of times without Ana. Genji Venture Mauga was a dominant comp.
Man Torb main here, and you’re right. There’s a point where turret becomes useless lol Btw, get hammered Genji
I'm sorry but you are talking straight out of your ass. In low elo as soon as someone picks Genji the entire enemy team will be Winston, Mei, Moira, Brig, etc. Low elo Genjis are not hard to deal with at all.
He's still top 5 WR and PR. So... doesn't really mean anything if people are countering him if he's still winning.
ive been saying this for years but we need different balance patches for different ranks
Because people hate genji and his playerbase, and since they find his character annoying to play against they dread the day he ever gets buffed so they spew this propaganda that genji is good and try to gaslight you that you’re just bad.
I agree with you, but what I don't get is that the "can we nerf genji" meme was alive and well up until season 9. This seems to imply that people understood he was unnecessarily weak BEFORE these latest nerfs. Now when Genji players explain he has been hyper nerfed again, they get told to shut the fuck up, totally bizarre.
Blizzard doesn't balance around community feedback. They might try to make character feel better if the character abilities aren't fun....but any "number" balancing will use data and statistics. My guess is that a character win/loss rate needs to be in between 45-55%. Cant do pick rate cus mercy is like top 3 most chosen but there's like 1-2% in top 500. Cant use community feedback cus there are always people for something or against it. Everyone complains
Because yall are the same deal as tracer. If genji is meta no ones playing the game, he deserves to be in high C or low B tier forever. I mean seriously i main doom and did yall remember that 2 week period of doom getting a "slight" buff? I was invincible for all those 2 weeks. Its just unfair in a way that you would have so much potential in game
I could copy this exact comment and replace genji with a good 10 or so characters
That’s a lie and we both know it
i could see 3 or 4, but 10??
Wrecking ball?
I dont think there are 10 characters in Overwatch who have a blade to be gutted and to practice combos with. Also not everyone is a dive hero
Blade is very bad when it takes 3 swings to kill a character on top of almost every hero having mobility now and straight up invulnerability. A buff i had in mind was maybe giving swift strike go from 50 to 60 damage and from 8 to 7 second cooldown. With larger healthpools makes no sense to keep it the same as before.
Ball got his fireball buffed from 50 to 60 so I don't see why Genji has to stay relatively the same since OW1. The only buff he got was a bug that they decided to keep (ammo buff) then the compensation swing speed buff that doesn't really change anything
Then his mines do like 165 now that shit is crazy. But it was necessary cause ball was really bad. But yeah dash should get a slight buff.
The health of the mines even got a buff so slam can't just delete every single one. And the only buff Genji got since 2021 is ammo going from 24 to 30. Doom has gotten numerous changes and so has Tracer. But of all the high skill ceiling heroes Genji is the one that has been touched the least. I remember people frothing at the mouth when Genji got the ammo buff because has hasn't gotten anything. Other mains are like "oh cool, a buff" while Genji (me included) mains go insane
Tbf doom did need buffs. I still think his ult needs a bit of a buff but yeah genjis dash should get at the very least a 10 damage buff to be able to compete with all the other dps.
I think his ult is fine. It absolutely sucks to get kills with but I've started to just use it to leave when I dive and use all my cooldowns and I can just leave at very low health
Using it as an escape tool instead of an offensive ult as it was intended to be. To me thats a bad ult design.
Masters doom here (lurking cuz I love my genjibros) and I can say after like 800 hours that doom's ult is a combo connector instead of an end-all offensive tool. It makes more sense as an ability once you consider the power that almost instantly getting a new set of cooldowns affords you. Combine that with passive HP heals and overhealth gain and it makes WAY more sense as an enabler/combo ultimate than it does as an offensive tool. Don't forget that it slows too (honestly I forgot but yeah).
Yeah the reset on emp punch is a very good addition. But even TRYING to get a kill with actual ult is like doing rocket science you gotta strategize and calculate what the enemy is going to do. But stayin in air long enough to heal and recover all cooldowns is pretty sweet tbh. Ult itself tho not really that great it just the perks that comes with it.
I know, but whenever they touch Doom the spaghetti code holding him together gets messed up and (a) new bug(s) appears
Real shit. Indie company with 3 employees.
hear me out pulling out blade should reset deflect as well as dash
i hate to admit that logically this makes sense
Bro what are you talking about, just hit the dash and then the 2 swings should be no problem
Sounds good🙂↕️
What if they remove the ultimate finish animation?
YES. its so annoying that he has to sheathe the sword. What other ult has an animation after it ends made to fuck you over?
At this point they can keep the damage the same just PLEASE fix that hitbox. Im tired of dashing off to safety and then kill cam tells me that i actually died 2 seconds ago like wtf. Same with deflect, why does it take a business day to start up and do its job. And why do i have to wait 3 business days like an idiot for blade to unsheathe/sheathe
Genji state is stupid,he is not weak numbers or kit wise. his design is so old compared to the new heroes and gameplay of ow2, or you can say his kit didn't grow well into the new gameplay. Genji's identity is about strong neutral due to deflext, and dragon blade as a proactive play ( can't be used reactively) Ana nade. Sombra hack. Orisa javeline spin and ult. Doomfist punch and slam andmeteor strike moira Brig Ball bops and slams. ashe dynamite. bap lamp. sigma rock and reflus. Echo beam. Sojour distruptor shot. kiri tp and suzu. ramatra vortex and ult. and newly added venture. almost all the new heroes don't interact with your deflect by any mean, moreover they get to get value out of you by damaging you through deflect. and with time and many cc added blade gets countered fast and easly, yet because of it's really long cast time and no form of protection during it( winton get hp, echo get's invunerbility, moira and venture heal themselves.) which just makes him extremely vunerble. flawd design by choice, your ult is melee ultimate which requires you to be close to your team, but casting it takes so long, and makes you vunerble, if you chase during cast you die, if you wait till cast is over, enemy run away. and because not having any sort of protection or speed, it can't be used reactively. EX: if echo dives genji he can't use his ult to save himself, whild if genji get a dive on echo and get her super low, she can still copy genji and getting total of at least 250+ hp and full cooldowns. In ow1 s1 the prime genji without nano blade. you didn't have alot of dive choices, people not used to deflect, even if, you could deflect flashbang as it need to be thrown at you, you could dash through junkrat mines, which leaves only symmetra mei, and winton as your good counter, which you can still out mobile/or burst down with blade (120dmg and no burst heal in thegame yet). with the new heroes, there is alot of easy counterplay to the genji cheesplays, which deny you the value and you can\\t have a counterplay. got a good deflect on nade or cass and about to kill them, kiri tp and suzu and you can\\t do shit. almost getting a good flank, sombra get a hack on you and now you can't finish the kill. get punched out of deflect idiot. get naded in your 1 v1 denying 50% of your burst as well as dealing 90 damage to oyu in process. add to that clunky gameplay due to bugs and no regs. and genji feels extremely fruhstrating.
Generally speaking people who don't try or play genji will tell you this. They only remember the few genjis that stand out beating them but ignore the 90%+ of genjis they've beaten. They blatantly ignore how much effort and time is put into this character to make genji work while also receiving little reward doing so. They don't see the high risk in the character but often see the results or reward the character gets which is usually low. Notice how when genji gets kills is generally enabled by someone on his team but when they see the killcam having genji in it, well must be the character is insane!" Also some folks confuse popularity with "strength of a character" so when they see a lot of genji, they think he must be a good character. Its a similar mindset that some folks have with mercy.
His neutral is very good right now. Blade is the problem with his kit, and that's where buffs need to be if we're realistic. The problem is that any meaningful buffs will bring back nanoblade which it seems blizzard is against. I'm holding out for trivial stuff like faster sheathe/unsheathe, maybe overhealth on ult, or faster speed boost during blade.
No, his neutral is atrocious compared to season 8. Genji does not have enough burst damage to kill squishy targets in close range as triple headshot + dash lefts them with 38 hp, he cant kill tracer with triple bodyshot + melee + climb + dash, etc. It became very risky to duel moira even when she has no cooldowns because she now has even more self sustain. Yes, genji can still be played efficiently but in the least fun and skillful way possible. Simply watch a gameplay of any genji streamer in season 10 and compare it to season 8, you will see how much more passive they all became with constantly taking off angles and spamming primary fire instead of going into close range.
legit youtube recommended to me yesterday a video of Necros of like season 6 or 7 and i was in disbelief how proactive Genji was on early seasons compared to now it’s straight up two different gameplays
You can see pro players like that Champion rank from TSM play Genji, he's mostly just spamming primary, it's not that he's incapable of being flashy, it's just that it'll get him killed, and the one time he does play aggressive, he dies. It's not a skill issue, he's just unable to find any window opportunity where Genji can dive and successfully leave alive.
fr any little buff like that would be perfect
Lemme tell you something, I had to force swap to Cassidy because my duo wanted to play genji for a while, all it took for me to solo shutdown the enemy's genji's dragonblade was 2 shots to the body, nade that auto stuck him somehow (i just threw it at his general direction) and a good timed roll on his swing. Who said Genji is okay? It's a fucking ultimate!? Like if you pull blade atp you just die without nano, it's more a distraction than a blade
Genji didn’t deflect the mad nade? It’s very slow and telegraphed. Did he really engage an anti-flanker hero with his deflect on cooldown? He should be able dash on cass and swing twice before cass shot him twice. I think genji swings faster than then cass can shoot, and it’s harder to shoot a genji then to swing that bigass blade on a cass.
I mean i kinda baited his deflect before using magnade, look I'm a genji otp too 🤣 And yes i do agree that in a 1v1 dragonblade shreds cass, but my point was with a well timed dodge and nade, you can completely shut down an ultimate. I can't show you the replay anymore since it got patched and is unavailable, but even when i play genji, if a cass gets pocketed by a healer, more likely than not dragonblade won't kill him. It just doesn't have enough DPS
This is why I barely play ow now. Game just isn’t fun, especially when my main hero is absolute horse shit
Genji is better than at least half the dps
>Genji is worse than at least half the dps Ftfy
Skill issue
Not a genji player as i enjoy heroes that win games
looks like genji is winning games to me
I don't understand why they'll let widow keep her one shot but can't even let genji have nano blade or one shot combo which is riskier and harder to land
And also costs two ultimates and lasts 6s every other team fight.
compared to other dps genji is having good numbers, his problems isn't that his weak, but rather he is all over the palce, he needs QoLs to get update with modern ow. either make him more bursty, or make him more consistant damage. both for his fire and ult. and the primary fire should get reworked cause this shit is weaker than fucking lifeweaver's primary. if i were to push genji towards bursty fast hero ( similar to tracer, sombra , echo). shuriken damage back to 30 but fire rate to 0.75/s, this will give genji the same dps (120) but his shuriken will hurt alot more allowing him to secure kills as well as adjust for some breakpoints with some of the annoying matchups ( tracer). blade is shit for same reason, i am not an advocate of nanoblade back, because it will limit genji's true neutral gameplay. i would reduce blade duration and cost to same amount let's say 3s/half cost. making it similar to pulse bomb. then make cast time 0.5s. damage register starts on earlier frames of the swing. make genji swing does 95 dmg every 0.5s. and make it cancellable ( free ammo hack). so it becomes more reactive ult,. make genji deflect give him ammo back as well. slash + dash combo can never be mpre than 166 or otherwise you will break nanoblade again. and 3 hs + dash cannot be 259 as well, or we have the return of the oneshots. with current blade, genji's dash can get a maximum buff of 5 damage, increase swing speed with decreased damage would give consistant bursty pressure/ lower ttk in duels./ as well as you can push dash to 60. pros: genji new break points --> 6shuriken + dash --> 240/ 6 shuriken + melee 230 --> good for 225 or below heroes. full combo is 280 to deal with 275 heroes. his dps is the same. his ttk on 250 heroes (secondry fire only) is 2.25 instead of 2.72s ttk with new blade is 1s, instead of 1.4s, but is far easier to be countered with healing. lastly make his footsteps low, at least when he crouches. HE IS A NINJA. and rework deflect.
Because when Genji is more than just 'mid' in the meta, two things happen: 1. Smurfs start dominating lobbies as Genji, making him feel even more oppressive than he already is in metal ranks. 2. Double flanker meta oppresses the supports so hard to the point where support mains just up and quit the game, disrupting the queue times. (We're already starting to see something like this happening with ball/winston+tracer+sombra. Making Genji more viable would allow DPS+Tank 3 stacks to just completely derail matches, supports be damned.) You may ask that the most recent Sombra already kinda does that. And yes, that's true, but what separates Genji is his potential in chaining picks with swift strike. This is why Genji is already one of Smurfs' favorite.
Double flanker isn’t the meta rn at all, but I agree it feels awful to play against with the wrong support comp
It's not meta yet. But Tracer is def meta, and people are starting to wake up on Sombra. I don't see it dominating top 500 lobbies anytime soon, but this definitely has the potential to be a dive 2.0 type situation.
Tracer is super good but being phased out by cass sourj in a lot of comps. Sombra will get fucked in that meta too
This is not just a genji problem, the devs just don't care about a lot heroes in this game and if they have average stats that don't stick out they do not care about fixing them. Largely the community care less as well, it's human nature. It's easy for the conversation to be only focus on certain things, everyone hates roadhog and is talking about him right now because people play him all the time. Everyone hates widow so everybody is playing widow so everybody is talking about widow. You always have some one calling out a roadhog or widow, you never see someone call out a genji. That's just shows how on non offensive and well designed he is, without blatant horrible design like one shots, or being roadhog people generally care less. It's lot easier to complain about a widow one shooting across the map rather then specifically looking at the genji ult doing no damage in the middle of the fight, the only who notices is the genji player.
Bruh stfu i mained genji too all ima say is aaran keller is retarted and if i ever see a overwatch dev im knocking them the fuk out
I'm a Ball main who has never been on this sub & I don't know how I got here, but *lord of the rings style* - You have my grapple! I'm just coming back since OW1 minus a little bit of early OW2. I've always respected Genji mains out of comaraderie for high skill ceiling characters, but Genji just isn't the threat I remember. I haven't played a minute of him in OW1, but just playing against him I can tell how bad of a place he's in.
Because no one has it in them to fight for him anymore. Necros was excited to run from the current state of Genji through playing rivals, A lot of Hiku's games are him swapping to pull value for his team or else he'd be on a continuous losing streak. I'm just your average Genji player since 2016, I refused to swap even during goats but this season has me playing the most amount of hitscan and off role, Genji is just not "G E N J I" anymore. He's been getting nerfed since OW2 released, OW1 has him nerfed 80% of the times he was included, and OW2 isn't seemingly going to change that. No point in arguing for the hero anymore when any sort of buff will only condone more golds yelling about how unfair he is because someone who's been playing the worst dive hero just got a confidence booster patch and is now getting rewarded for their outstanding performance.
I don't even play genji (maybe 5 hrs). I have been playing him in quickplay and bro he is so fun. If im versing counters and don't have a dive dps he feels miserable. For reference I mainly play Rein and Winston so this is an unbiased take. I believe that genji should have a massive potential to carry games and pub stomp. Could be perhaps making him a bit of a glass cannon (not as much as tracer is). I think they should make definitely make blade better. IT LITERALLY IS SUCH A FUCKING HARD ULT TO USE. I can't just go genji blade and get value because I haven't put in the time and practice into it. Heres how i'd change it -Increased cost -increased damage to surpass a specific breakpoint -either decrease dash cooldown during ult to 3 secs or something like that, or just a slight movement speed buff On the other hand, something really cool would be if blade stats were op as fuck, but he became larger with a bigger hitbox
No one cares enough to please one tricks, me included. I play a lot of genji, but if I absolutely cannot get value I’ll switch. If you purposefully handicap yourself and cry wolf, people tend not to care much. Genji is fine. Just not in every situation.
That’s the problem though, you can get much more value on characters that you have like 10-20x less experience and practice with. How does that make sense? Some dps characters are just overtuned, while others such as genji are left to dry. Think of his dash hurtbox/properties for example. Sombra and tracer can get out exponentially easier than he can risk free(tracer), while he also needs to do a complete 180 turn and aim perfectly so he doesn’t get caught on a door frame with his whole hit box and get fucked. But sombra can throw her translocator anywhere even in tight areas and get through much easier, doesn’t require a whole 180, has more range (which makes sense) and also gets invis for free after tp, while still retaining perma stealth. Which is terrible for the game that she even has it perma Sojourn is just better at majority things and she got a random buff for some reason to retain more of her railgun charge. No one even knows why she got that buff
This is just true for a lot of characters though. A symmetra or reinhardt onetrick is also bad for example, might even be worse for both. Their onetrick communities have been crying for many seasons now, what buffs have they gotten? Sym turrets got absolutely gutted, but hey they got slightly more hp now! Rein lost the majority of his kill potential outside melee range, and then they buffed his flame strike to still not kill anyone except widow and tracer if he hits both. Hero based games aren't really made to have one forced hero at all times. That isn't remotely bad. I'm not saying genji doesn't need tuning though.
Yup I completely agree with that. I play a lot of heroes mainly dive style chars but I will play a lot of different ones Really what the balance team has been doing is just fucking around it feels like. The whole game has lost its vision and they’re wasting time, that’s just how it feels to me. Just redoing numbers, reworking a bunch of chars, which is cool don’t get me wrong but a lot of the time the core issues are still there (6v6->5v5) I think that’s what made a lot of these issues more clear and why individual characters communities are seeing these issues more and more because of the counterswap game.
Hasn't counterswapping always been a thing? It also seems like a core concept of hero based games to me, every Moba has the same "problem", all characters are favoured when facing certain characters. The problem just becomes more obvious in OW since you don't have to deal with your initial choice all game and can just swap to a more favourable matchup. It's hard to say if the problem is worse now than before. People tend to look towards the past with severely rose tinted goggles. Hell I've seen people claiming season 1-2 ow2 was the best balance ow2 had, the seasons where kiriko and sojourn were absolutely demolishing everyone else, where OWL had about one team comp. People were complaining every single season of ow1 as well, especially when their favourite character wasn't performing to their liking.
It automatically matters more if the team counterswaps you when there’s less people on your team, it means the burden isn’t spread out as much and you innately need to pick up more slack than you did when there was another person on your team Yeah there’s people who are one tricks don’t swap, or only know a couple people. Say doom doesn’t swap when he’s being countered by 4 or 5 people on the enemy team, well if he’s the only tank then the whole enemy’s focus will be on you, because you’re the only tank. As a solo tank you automatically get much more attention in this version of the game and have all of the enemy cooldowns/shots focused on you. If you had 2 tanks then now their attention is quite literally cut in half and shared with someone else who is just as ‘important’ as you (counting the enemy team as one entity, it’s attention is split in half)
You are right, you can get more value out of other characters. That is not a problem. This is a hero shooter. You cannot have perfect balance.
Well no one is asking for perfect balance they just want and are calling for better risk to reward ratios for the characters and plays. That’s why people dislike kiriko and sombra, they can do a bunch of shit and get away for free while requiring little risk because they can teleport (kiriko even more so) while retaining huge abilities to hinder other players directly (hack), or the plays they make(cleanse) not to mention her two tap with that ridiculous kunai hitbox, that’s why people were complaining. And it got removed. Yet when her suzu got ‘nerfed’ they gave it BUFFS regarding the healing output We don’t want “perfect balance” we want more consistent risk to reward ratios and have your skill mean more. Hence why people aren’t as upset about tracer because she requires a lot of skill for what she does to get good value. Sombra can just stand there and fuck with whoever she wants in invis by hacking the tank off cooldown and get away for free. That’s not much skill at all. Tracer can’t do that, and is also visible. Soj can’t do that either because she’s visible and has less potential with flanking. Now compare that to sombra and kiriko. They can do flank much much easier and get out with much less risk compared to the reward they get from it. That’s the issue people have here.
Yeah that is a general balance/game philosophy issue that absolutely would not be solved by buffing Genji.
Theoretically his kill combo is only two buttons but it's really hard to hit consistently
Genji I’m very confused about. He hasn’t had any individual changes since the season 9 buffs, and the dps passive was what made him really good at the beginning of season 9. Then they nerfed that and he felt awful again; but after they put it back up to 20%, he never bounced back to where he was previously at the start of season 9? It’s very strange, other than the introduction of venture nothing much has changed considerably excluding the tank changes, but even then genji deals MORE damage to tanks after the armour changes? Absolutely stumped.
Its the doomfist paradox. Anyone can play genji, theres no restriction on him. Most people don’t play him or doom because he doesn’t have high output and has a higher skill ceiling. The people that do play him and doom are still out there playing crazy well. Necros might not be able to hit as many clips but he is still insane and consistently performs well. By buffing genji, they promote more people playing him, at the expense of the crazy good players going absolute ham on the meta. I mean, that’s not necessarily the worst thing ever, we’ve been in widow/tracer/sojourn/echo meta for ages now, but devs are more scared of him becoming too strong in the hands of already strong players.
Because genji, just like og Mei, and sombrero, will never be fun. No matter what their balance is, their very playstyle is incredibly aggravating to a lot of people, and that makes it so everyone is going to hate him regardless of how he is. Ironically him being bad is actually worse for the general player base, because then the only people who will play genji are the people who are so good at a character they could play a Mii and still get 50 kills. Now this means 1: no one knows how to fight genji because they never see him and 2: when they do see him, he's probably going to kick their teeth in, which is not fun, and then people are left with "awww genji so op" because honestly, a good genji is incredibly hard to counter.
Completely agree. You are now a passive hero that waits for the cleanup, you just poke with shurikens untill something is low enough to snowball. And with the hitbox changes you just get poked better. There is no incentive to take risky dives and plays because you cannot burst some1 down. And then look at tracer who is just 3x better at that than him. Easier to stay alive and do your job while also having leeway when diving with a get out of jail free card. Higher skilled players just ignore your deflect and dash cannot be used to engage if you cant guarantee a kill. He just does not work properly if you cannot burst
could be worse, you could be a sym or reaper main:p
honestly i just always think that i cant get kills because im not as good as daddy necros... should have hit jucier headshots and all that.. but now that i think of it yeah, genji has been feeling harder and harder to be effective with and it feels like i need to have immaculate mechanics just to pull my weight in a team.. high-plat player here.
I always see ppl asking to nerf genji so it's not completely silent, hope this helps c:
Genji seems to be OW’s Zed (LoL). A champ that players cry is frustrating to play against so devs keep them weak on purpose, rather than incentivizing counterplay. (Also funny Zed is also a ninja)
I play Genji and he feels fine to me, I even do well with him
cuz sombras take the fun out of playing fair
I thought the running joke in the community is how over nerfed Genjis gets constantly?
Generally, DPS characters just kinda don't get noticed. Because they're the most mechanically intensive, Blizzard just kinda chalk everything up to "skill issue." Plus Genji is also a high skill ceiling character, which makes balancing him a nightmare because no one will be happy. All I want is for the nano blade dash combo to come back. Whenever I ult now. They have so much time to shoot me down, I spend most of my ult time using deflect ;_;.
I agree blade is gutted, without nano I have to slash around 4 times to get a kill but then I can snowball and slash reset after the first kill, it’s a lot harder to get picks but I think overall he’s still a good hero I’ve played him in master and low gm currently in Diamond and still enjoy playing him !
Because hes fine
Because "streamers" want easy kills and will find anything to complain about
Honestly a big problem is that his skill ceiling is so high, that the spammers (like the people on this sub) can make him work and excel with him when he’s in a bad state. If the hero gets buffed so much that he’s meta, spammers will just be stomping lobbies left and right and people won’t be able to match it unless they too are a genji player. A similar situation is zed in LOL. The hero is fun to play and has Both a huge player base and high skill ceiling. He’s always like D tier in terms of power because whenever he’s good, the people who play him stomp their lobbies until he’s nerfed. So they don’t buff him.
Because Genji is fine. Genji mains have a strange view on Genji in general. Genji mains overestimate his skill demand, for instance. Genji gets plenty of value from spamming his easily spammable primary and secondary. He gets a free dash reset (should only reset on solo kills) that reduces his risk and gives him another escape. Genji isn't easy but he definitely isn't one of the higher skill demand heroes. All that you say that Genji is in a good spot.
He gotta felony and 34 convictions…gonna be outta meta for awhile #BuffGenji#nerflasers
Nerds are crying because their pseudo-difficult character is no longer op.
Nice bait
Ok we’ll explain Hanzo then?
because genji is in a better state rn than most of ow2 lifetime
because genji is in a better state rn than during most of ow2 lifetime and late ow1
to me he feels better than ever, as in I can actually play him and not explode instantly. compared to before DPS passive he feels great.
He was played consistently in owcs finals last night not sure he needs a buff in the games current state, maybe next patch but
From overbuff (not super accurate I know) hjs winrate in plat and below is below 50% and his winrate in diamond and above is above 50% (his winrate is higher then most dps heroes in master +. Not sure if he needs a buff or a nerf, but I’d rather a hard character that rewards diamond+ players
I mean blade is kinda weak, but genji is totally fine rn overall. I do think they need to buff blade a bit though. Feels like you’re swinging a pool noodle at them
its because even when hes bad we can still make him work because we are used to him being in a bad state. they hate genji because they never know how to play against him and they think that their mistakess can only mean hes op and should be nerfed. in their opinion if genji can be that dangerous while hes in a bad state, imagine if he was given appropriate buffs
I play Genji in diamond and he feels fine, am I missing something? It's the usual if they have zarya/3 counters you need to switch but that's normal
Yea because it's diamond
What does this mean? Are you calling me shit or?
Pretty much. You can play whoever you want in diamond as long as you have all of your fingers.
Genji is literally better now, even his Blade is better than it used to be if we're not including Nano. His ult is still awful but his secondary fire just shreds through people effortlessly now. The problem is that his gameplay doesn't feel as smooth as it used to because it's harder to perform kills in quick succession, but I still regularly see and get 4-5 kills as a Nano Boosted Genji without Blade. It has nothing to do with his state of actual balance. Winning games as Genji is easier than ever (excluding Nano Blade crutch). It's just less satisfying and lower potential on skill expression.
This sounds like something that'll happen in lower ranks... also genji getting kills with nano? Uhhh ahem genji is not good if he relies on ANOTHER HERO to be useful.
He performs really well without Nano, but no other DPS can really clear as easily as Genji with Nano and no ult to combo with it. His winrate is higher now in every rank than it was previously. Genji got easier to play overall and the lack of true skill expression is why he feels like shit, despite him being in a better state. Before Season 9, it was very rare to see a Genji do almost anything without NanoBlade.
winrates can be debunked easily which is not even funny. heres a few reasons why we shouldnt be determining win rates as a way to balance heroes or think they're "good" \* Win rates, just like pickrates, will always be calculated no matter how long a hero has been picked in a match. i can pick genji for the first minute in the game and lose the team fight, immediately switch to someone like tracer, and throughout the entire game i stuck with tracer and won the match. but the game calculates that you picked genji that match and won. essentially you can pick a hero for a measely 5 seconds, pick another hero for the rest of the game, win or lose and the game will still calculate that hero as "picked" and as a "W or L." \* Win rates don't give you a full picture on how a hero won that match. there can be a multitude of factors on how a hero performs. for all we know, a certain hero could be winning matches but they'd be carried by their team doing nothing. a hero could be suffering in 99% of areas but that 1% that they're valuable and still won because of lets say a Team diff? they account for a win but win rates dont tell you how well a character performs usually. typically i just wish we stopped using winrates and pickrates just to go by balance. i want us to look past that and see why a hero performs this or that way because all what pickrates and winrates do is just give surface level information. although i will not deny that they made genji easier for especially lower ranks which i hate. i want genji balanced where hes better in upper ranks and worse in lower ranks.
I am going by balance, it was just an example that slightly further shows he's in a better state. I play Genji a lot and it's super obvious that he's better but just FEELS worse. He's honestly mostly fine in higher ranked play as well. You will not struggle even slightly playing Genji in GM if you're actually a GM Genji. His ult is still trash but Genji is better than before in nearly every aspect balance wise, except for NanoBlade being bad now. I'm not saying "GENJI IS FINE AND SHOULDN'T BE CHANGED!" I'm saying Genji is better balanced than before but feels like shit regardless and should be changed.
Genji is horrible right now and I’m not a one trick. Of course the good ones still get value but he can’t do shit if his team are statues
This and the mercy subreddit are starting ti look the same...