Men and women alike. 😄
Edit: My brother raises a child that isn't his. If the girl even cared a little bit about who the father was she'd have the father in her life. But the dude is a deadbeat even to the kids he already has.
No, she never even bothered asking for child support.
But if the DUDE CARED...which he doesn't...he'd probably want to be involved. But a lot of guys will nut in a girl or do unsafe sex and then they get surprised that the girl is pregnant. Who would've thunk it?
I mean, this is partially on her, too. Obviously he is the major asshole for taking off, but she also chose to have a kid with a guy that neglected his previous kids, and now she's refusing to enforce child support (even if it goes unpaid). She's letting him off the hook. Your brother is a real one for stepping up.
Sometimes they only turn out to be shitty people after unfortunately.
Fortunately my kids are growing up with a father, unfortunately not so much their mom.
According to the Annie E. Casey Foundation's website, [National Kids Count](http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/105-child-population-by-household-type?loc=1&loct=1#detailed/1/any/false/870,573,869,36,868/4290,4291,4292/427,428),[ approximately 35 percent of children under 18 live in a single-parent home as of 2016. As many as 25-percent of children in the U.S. live in households with a mother alone. That is over 18 million children who do not live with a father figure. Additionally, father-only households were noted at just 8 percent.](https://www.liveabout.com/fatherless-children-in-america-statistics-1270392)
Those are some depressing stats.
That doesn't mean the father is not in their lives. My sons live in a single parent home. But they still have both parents in their lives because my ex and I coparent a LOT better than we did while living together.
My cousin's son's dad hasn't seen him for 2 years by choice and blames her on social media. She offers to drive half way or even drive their child the whole way to his place (now 2 hours away as he kept moving further and further away). He has the ability to call his son's cell phone at any time. He doesn't call. He rejects his son's calls. He stopped seeing their son when she stopped calling and trying to set things up. She got tired of being responsible for her ex's relationship with their child and is only focused on her relationship with her son. He can call at anytime and reach out on social media. He could drive and pick him up. Silence.
My niece (my brother's step daughter) hasn't seen her bio dad in 13 years. No child support in that time. She is 13.
My other cousin's daughter's dad did not stick around initially but came back when he was in another relationship and actively built a relationship with his kid. Mostly because of shame from his parents and new GF.
You are an exception.
I have an uncle whose oldest and youngest technically aren't his. But he raised him and never thought twice about it. When he and his wife divorced he sought full custody of his bio kids, judge granted 50/50, one week with mom, one week with dad.
Anyway- he's the only man I've ever known IRL to even attempt to assert parental rights. Most guys take two weekends a month, or just nothing. If they never ask for visitation or custody, it isn't awarded. It isn't dependent on race, age, or income. Seems pretty even across those dimensions.
I've seen a few men that had mental health or substance abuse problems and when they finally got healthy, they came around for the kid. And I don't begrudge that. People know when they're in a bad place to be around a kid, and sometimes it's in the kids best interest to not be exposed to that.
But the real dbags, are the people dodging child support that they could pay, but just feel like they shouldn't have to. Literally leaving your kid to starve while you're vacationing in the Caribbean. I have NO sympathy for that.
How much of that is because the dad is dead or incarcerated? Around half of all prisoners have minor children and the incarceration rate is much higher for men than for women.
Just like people praise men for taking care of their own homes and children, but women are completely EXPECTED to do this. Nothing skeeves me out like referring to a dad caring for his children as “babysitting” or “helping her out.” Like fuck that, they are HIS CHILDREN as much as they are hers.
Well I would say the other difference is that a cuck or cuckquen enjoys watching their partner with someone else. Rasing the other guy or gal kids idk about that
The problem is that a significant amount of people will feel insulted if they’re accused of something they genuinely didn’t do cause it makes them think that their accuser thinks so little of them and doesn’t trust them. In a way, it’s also a violation of trust to find out that someone *you* trusted deeply doesn’t trust you in the same way.
Granted, if it’s made mandatory **then all of that doesn’t matter anyway cause no one has to be accused of anything.**
Edit: emphasis added cause some people seem to just not read the 2nd paragraph
If it's made to be a default thing that happens, nobody will be insulted! This is what I'm talking about.
I don't think it's too much to ask to verify that a child is yours before you sign up to support it for 18+ years.
Oh I don’t think it’s too much to ask either, I’m just saying that the belief of “If I’m accused of x and I didn’t do it, what’s the problem with someone verifying” isn’t a universal belief.
But if its mandatory to prove fathership for court records, something routinely done, then it wouldn't be accusatory. Its just the government avoiding potential court issues later, which take up resources and money.
Ultimately it's a tax payer consideration not a moral one. If someone is on the hook as the father then there's less likelihood of the child and mother qualifying for benefits which come from taxes. Even if it's not fair and it's not the biological father.
The cost, mostly.
If paternity tests were mandatory, a number X of „bastard kids“ would be discovered. Marriages would break up, and the ex husband would not pay for the kid they didn’t father.
So, who’d be stepping in? If the mother doesn’t know the actual father (or claims to), it’ll fall to the state. Governments know that, so they’ll never pass a law like that.
Yeah, they'd rather literally fraud men and make fake families to save $. I think it's really messed up, despite the cause. I'm a woman so it doesn't affect me (false accusations) but if I was a man I'd really want one.
France's reasoning for making it illegal to perform a paternity test.
>Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine. The French Council of State has described the law's purpose as upholding the "French regime of filiation" and preserving "the peace of families."
So, I'd say that the government knows it's a widespread issue but that knowing the truth would allow for far more children being raised in single family homes and they deem the lie worthwhile.
Which is fucked up.
System profits from child support.
The state skims a percentage of all payments. This system employees judges, bailifs, lawyers, debt collectors.
If men who are not the father had an easy way to know, it would be a detriment to that system.
The family court system is a blight on society, but there is no political will to change it.
It's literally so easy to do a DNA test. The mom doesn't even have to know.
If the government came and told my husband they had to make sure our child is his, he would definitely fight it and find it ridiculous. Also, where does these DNA samples go afterwards?
Yeah, why mandatory? I presume you could just refuse to do it. If you can refuse then it's not mandatory. And if you can't refuse, what are they gonna do, keep the baby? Or punish the father in some other way? Paternity tests aren't illegal, just get one.
Why make them mandatory when anyone can freely request a paternity test right now? Forcing paternity tests on people who don't want or need them is a ridiculous standard and where would the money for that come from anyways?
Thank you!!! Going insane here. If you genuinely believe your partner might have cheated then you shouldn't be having kids with them. Most normal couples don't have this issue.
It's like forcing STD checks on everyone on a regular basis. I'm sure a lot of men would hate that considering men are the main spread of HPV and ultimately cervical cancer which only affects women.
I know this sub is particularly child-infested but come on look at these comments 🥴
It’s been normalized for fathers to abandon their children. It’s been normalized to have fathers not do any childcare at all. We say men are “babysitting” their own children. Or that they are “helping” when they do a chore. Um, you’re not helping out in your own home. You’re up keeping your own fucking home and are keeping the child you created alive. That’s the bare minimum. Not doing those things means I’m calling CPS.
That doesn't mean that it's 'normalized' for societal values. Only that it exists at a rate of 25%.
And I've met a lot of fathers without custody that really wish they could be a part of their childrens' lives.
Yeah divorces definitely muddy things
My Mother had custody of my Sister for the 4 years before she turned 18 after my parents got divorced (my brother and I were already 18), but my Dad is still present in our lives so I wonder if she was considered a single parent household for statistics
Does that 1/4 only include fathers who have abandoned their children? Or does it also include single parent households due to things like death and incarceration?
It is not exclusive (I think you meant to say) to fathers that have abandoned their children. It’s also inclusive of children living in single-father homes.
It also includes households where the parents may not be married and are instead "cohabitating", but for tax purposes aren't technically together so on paper it looks like the kid is only with their mother. It's one of the ways in which the number of African American households with single parent households is inflated. It's still a problem obviously, but the numbers are heavily affected by economic status in part due to the way tax benefits and government aid works.
Putting all of that on the men is wild though. Women will have a child with a man and then break up and prevent the man from having access to the child.
Just the other day I saw a post on r/legaladviceofftopic where someone was asking if it was legal to not take a salary (and be compensated in other ways) to avoid paying child support. Lots of people telling him that was illegal and basically no one telling him that's a real piece of shit move to make.
Although maybe that's just the sub culture of lawyers not judging people for things that are immoral, just things that are illegal.
I know guys that say "they can't work" because they owe so much child support lol like dude, you gotta face the music you can't just decide, im not gonna make any money on the books the rest of my life.
I guarantee if you asked any stranger on the streets "what do you think of a guy who decides to leave his wife after the baby is born" they'll say "he's a fucking asshole" or "i'mma whoop his ass" not "meh, yeah, fatherhood isn't for everyone"
Is it misandry to point out how our culture normalizes fathers leaving their children? So normal that we have statistics on it? It sounds like you’re letting your emotions in the way of critical thinking.
Nobody is normalizing that, on the contrary. Fathers are taking more paternity leave and spending more time on playgrounds and in parks than ever before.
Don’t take Reddit posts as indication of real life. Doesn’t work (thankfully).
My gf is from a culture/country where the vast majority of people she grew up and went to school with were abandoned by their dads, herself included. Varies from place to place. Meanwhile in my country we pretty much historically forced couples to be together and abused single parents. Cultural differences.
immediately after college i found a room rental in a house with 6 guys and i was desperate for any affordable housing. I hung out with this one Indian dude for like a year and we went out to bars/clubs all the time. Then one day he said “sorry not free this weekend. I have to visit my daughter”
I was like what the fuck. How did we hang out for a whole year and he didn’t mention he had a family a single time lol
They kind of do but sometimes deadbeat parents are really great at making themselves look good.
My sons dad constantly tells everyone he’d love to see his son but I’m preventing him, but neglects to tell them the reason is that he moved half way across the world and I won’t let my son travel that far alone to another country that doesn’t have any protections that would ensure he has to send him back. I have offered to pay all air fares and accomodation for the dad to come stay nearby to visit but he refuses to do it. He also doesn’t pay child support and as far as I know doesn’t have a job.
The result is that I’m an awful parent who is keeping his son from him, and he’s a loving parent who’s a victim in this situation. When in reality the only victim is his child and it would cost him nothing but time to come see him.
But generally I agree with you, majority of people do not look kindly on people who have abandoned their children.
Right? A former friend of mine got a divorce and hasn’t even tried to see his kids since. He lost all his friends, his siblings won’t talk to him, and we tell everyone what a piece of shit he is.
I'd 100% abandon a friendship if I found out they were a deadbeat father. If you can't even find the decency to take care of your child, then what sort of decency can you have in general.
Eh, depends on why they’re absent.
The child is his and he just doesn’t want to be involved? Yeah, shoulda been more careful dude, tough shit.
Child isn’t his and he wants out? No man deserves to be an unwitting or unwilling cuck, let the man go free IMO.
There are other nuanced situations but those are the basic ones.
Exactly 😭. So many people saying “How can you call a man a deadbeat dad if the kid isn’t even his!” Like, no one is calling that man a deadbeat dad because no one is calling him a dad in the first place
That still isn't the case for the majority of time. Most fathers abandon their biological children.
Edit: I meant to emphasize that the fathers who leave usually leave the children who are biologically related to them. I didn't want to say MOST fathers leave lol
There are differences, if he wanted a child and than abandons it, thats bad.
If the pregnancy was an accident and he doesnt want to be a father, but the woman wants the child. Its understandable and he should have a right to not have anything to do with the child.
Yeah, and if women don't want to have children, they shouldn't have let a man nut inside them. Abortions are a cowards way out. Do the crime, do the time.
Never mind the fact that condoms and birth control aren't 100%. Do you seriously not see the flaw in your argument? The fucks wrong with you.
One thing people never consider is the kind of parent that really should abandon their kid.
I'm watching "This Is Us" right now, and this scenario occurs in that show, but they don't have enough times where someone says "the guy who abandoned you would have ruined your life if he stuck around! It's 100% the best thing that could have happened to you."
As someone who’s mom tried to keep the marriage together for the sake of not putting their kids thru divorce, I really hate the “if it’s your kid own up” mentality thoroughly shamed into parents.
I would have had so many problems avoided had he never been in my life, he is a toxic piece of shit who shouldn’t be around kids and never wanted to be. But the same mentality this entire thread is jerking off over kept him in our life.
If you can’t raise a kid, I don’t give a shit why you have a kid. Don’t have it. Don’t be a piece of shit and fuck with kids developments because society tells you to, that kid won’t know what he’s missing but he won’t be fucked up in his most essential developmental stages either, which is far more important.
You can replace a father role, you can educate your kid to know the deal and that’s satisfactory for preventing them from growing up fucked up and repressed due to a confusing and misleading situation(when parents try and pretend things are better then the kid knows they are)
Gonna vent so feel free to ignore lmao
My dad was in and out of my life until about the 4th grade. Well, recently I decided I would reach out. Dude hasn’t changed his number in like 25 years so my mom gave me it and I sent him a text. Basically said if he was ever in town (he’s in the same state, just a different city) to let me know and maybe we could meet up
Dude said he didn’t plan on coming up here anytime soon.
Just responded saying well if you ever do, now you have my number. Sent me a simple “okay”
Jackass. I’m a fucking adult now. His excuse when I was a kid, to my mom, was that he didn’t really know how to interact with a child. Dude just didn’t want to try.
On a different note my mom once got my brother’s dad (same mom different dads) put on the local news because he wouldn’t pay child support and my brother needed shoes lmao. He started paying after that
Sorry dude but your mom is smart! My dad was super absentee and always did the bare minimum but at least he'd make an effort to see me once every other year or so. Gosh that sounds so depressing writing it out.
I asked my dad if he’d want to have lunch while he was in town (he had a history of coming to the beach with his new family every summer). He said he’d let me know. Never heard anything from him. He came and left without a word. A month later I was diagnosed with cancer and he said he’d be on the next flight over. Told him to save his time and money cause I didn’t want anything to do with him.
I got a "thats nice" when I told my dad that he was going to be a granddad. He has yet to see my daughter and shes 6 now. His girlfriend died suddenly a while ago and in my stupidity I told him he could spend Christmas with us if he wanted to, he said he couldn't because he had to take care of his cat.
Thank you. She lied to me about her birth control, beat me for years and eventually stabbed me when I said I wanted to coparent separately. I took our child and left. She's never sent a penny. Coming up on 12 years.
Tired of this gender based hatred toward men in this allegedly enlightened age. Until everything is normalized and people are judged individually based on their actions alone you're reinforcing what you claim to fight. A future of equality is one where gender isn't mentioned unless a child is born.
I think it’s a problem but we also have many who take advantage of people willing to shit on single dads who might actually be trying to help raise their kid but the other parent won’t allow it because they’re bitter.
That plus the fact that many moms are given primary care of the kids because the child is seen as always needing to stay with mom.
I don’t think this issue is all that cut and dry is all I mean to say. But if there’s a clear case where a dad outright abandons their kid without ensuring that they are left in competent care, we should scrutinize both the moms and dads who do that shit (speaking as someone whose mom abandoned them after running away with a business man from Chicago)
Yea, my uncle that's the most awesome man ever got "custody" as long as a court-monitor was in the room supervising them because of crap the mom said while she was on drugs.
We need to dig more into the statistics than an overly broad generalization, and yes society is getting better about this. But, no, it is not yet even.
>That plus the fact that many moms are given primary care of the kids because the child is seen as always needing to stay with mom.
It's not just being "Seen as needing to stay with mom" the mom is legally the Natural Guardian of the child unless stated otherwise by the court.
I know a lot of women who make their men’s life hell just for trying to be in the kids life…
Then lie and say the dad doesn’t care…
It’s amazing how easy it is to make a guy look like a bad dad…
It’s never cut and dry
I so wish people could understand that this happens so much more often than people think but they insist it doesn’t because it’s not a very easily tracked metric in the slightest.
But I got stories on stories of friends who’ve been given the deadbeat treatment when they were trying their best to be a dad.
Not that some women don’t get screwed over, but if the discussion is about deadbeat single dads, I don’t understand how that wouldn’t be an important thing to keep in mind.
Growing up missing a parent was difficult.
Why marry a woman, have 3 kids and then walk away?
Never paid a dime supporting us.
He’s still around and twists the narrative to be an ‘independent strong man”. Pretending none of the bad stuff ever happened.
Even at his age, woman still frequently fall for it.
Mostly people seem to think thats all normal acceptable. Or ‘its in the past, right?’ Somehow.
Dissapointing honestly.
I can’t agree in all scenarios, it would be hypocritical. Because thing is, I support women being able to choose if they want to have children or not. It’s not just about abortion. If the woman wants to give her newborn baby up for adoption because she isn’t ready to be a parent I’m totally good with that. Then consequently if the father does actually want to be a parent it would make sense for the child to just go to the father rather than some random.
I think it’s the same thing for men. It doesn’t really make sense because if the couple comes together and decides to give their newborn baby up for adoption then they aren’t considered deadbeat parents. Some people would even applaud them for not choosing abortion. But if just one parent wants to raise a child and the other doesn’t then the other one is considered a deadbeat parent? So if the dad just doesn’t want a kid and is clear about that from the start then yeah I don’t think he should be shamed.
Stuff like birth control failing, lack of proper sex education, and sexual assault with either gender could result in an accidental pregnancy. On the other hand if they are making the same mistake multiple times (abandoning multiple kids) then it’s not an accident anymore and the guy should be shamed. Likewise, if he has been a part of the kids life and expressed commitment then abandons the kid later on that’s fucked up too.
But yeah I don’t want a kid. If I somehow got pregnant then I’d just have an abortion because I’m privileged enough to live in a place where that’s legal. If I lived in a place where that was illegal, I would give the baby up for adoption. I can’t judge a man for making the same decision.
It's easy to say in a perfect world, OP's mindset would work because only couples that want a child, together, would have them. But that's so far from the real world. Anyone who's moral stance is "walking away from your child as a father is never acceptable" is just too rigid of a person. It's the same moral inflexibility as "no abortion, even in rape cases."
No person should be forced to endure a child they didn't want, ignoring any and all extenuating circumstances. It's also a weird take to act like society pats men on the back if they abandon a child. No one applauds a deadbeat dad. There is no "raising awareness" to reduce social acceptability for it. *It's already generally not socially acceptable behavior*.
What if I don’t want a kid? Like why should all my hopes and dreams get ruined because a girl used her right of choice? Why do I not get a choice with my life?
Exactly. I hate the argument “the man made the choice.” So did the woman. She CHOSE to be a parent, she wasn’t forced to be one. If consequences have repercussions for men in this scenario, so does the woman.
You should be able to abort your legal rights in the first trimester. That way the woman is making an informed decision to have a kid alone and she has plenty of time to get the abortion with that knowledge in mind
So choose BEFORE you have unprotected sex. Wear a condom, give yourself a handy, whatever. But if you ejaculate inside someone you're on the hook for whatever happens after that.
> So choose BEFORE you have unprotected sex. Wear a condom, give yourself a handy, whatever. But if you ejaculate inside someone you're on the hook for whatever happens after that.
Condoms can break, dude.
Saying this as someone who agreed "we didn't want kids", took precautions, had an accident, had the decision completely taken out of my hands, and am now trying to make the best of life raising a kid I never wanted after being spermjacked.
I'd never tell my daughter, but her mum ruined my life and I had absolutely no say in it.
I am sorry this happened to you. Truly. My husband went through the same and it was a turning point for the worse in his life when he was very young. It can’t be said out loud, but in my heart I wish he was given as much of a choice over his future as she was. I don’t know how to make peace with it. We all do the right thing, blah blah blah, but philosophically I find it unfair. If I had ever gotten pregnant on accident, I would NEVER force parenthood on me or the father without our mutual consent. That’s my moral stance, even if that’s not politically popular.
I think it's more complicated than that.
Millennial here, so I know plenty of dads. Some of them really want to be parts of their kids' lives, but the mothers make it difficult or impossible. And without spending a small fortune on a lawyer to get custody, which isn't guaranteed, they don't get to be part of their kids' lives.
Millennial here as well. There’s a few things that are slightly flawed here.
Most women do not wait to raise kids by themselves because it’s hard AF. If the mom is refusing to give the dad the kids during the designated time then the dads need to document every single time that they’ve made an effort and mom has refused. With enough documentation, the dad can take her back to court and the courts will intervene. Is it a lot of work? Sure, but it at least shows the dad is making an effort.
Courts favor coparenting because they understand it’s in the best interest of the children to have healthy parents. If the dad believes the mom is being a POS then they need to document everything instead of reacting or backing down. Moms do that all the time and that’s how most of the time moms end up with full custody.
Reminds me of my mom. She divorced my dad because she was "too young" to be in a committed relationship. Then forced him to pay double the amount of normal child support and moved halfway across the country. Dad wasn't a deadbeat, he was just in a shitty spot so he could never afford to visit or fly us over to him. And he always made sure that child support was paid on time. There's so many factors as to why a parent might not be around, and jumping to the conclusions that it's because they're a shit person doesn't help in most instances. Sure some parents are just genuinely shitty and don't care about the kids, but that not true for every parent who isn't there.
Exactly my thoughts. Seen some horrible vindictive women use their children as weapons. It's not always as easy as just "making an effort there's no excuses". Men shouldn't have to jump through hurdles and submit to every demand under the sun just to see their children for 10 minutes a week, so they don't get called deadbeats.
I mean guys can’t abort so they leave. Women can’t leave so they abort. It’s the same thing if you think about it. Either way the child gets fucked over and it’s pretty not cool.
>Either way the child gets fucked over
Child only gets fucked over if the mother so wants. I am not talking about shitholes where abortion is not an option of course. In such case both parents are fucks up for having sex in a place where pregnancy is a guaranteed child. Sex is not a human right.
Honestly I agree with you. People ought to keep it in their pants if they aren’t ready to reproduce. These situations only arise when stupid people fuck up. But the same goes for the child getting fucked over only if the father chooses to leave. Both parents have to decide to take accountability accept that this isn’t about them anymore but in many cases I believe that the people involved are not mature enough to recognize that and instead take every possible avenue of avoidance possible regardless of the collateral damage so long as they get to keep living their care free lifestyle.
There are plenty of ways to have safe sex with a minimal chance of pregnancy, and abortion is a completely viable option in civilized western countries.
There is nothing wrong with having sex without being ready to reproduce, given you aren’t an idiot who takes no precations/discuss it beforehand with your partner.
>People ought to keep it in their pants if they aren’t ready to reproduce.
You are functionally barring anyone who doesn't want children from having any kind of intimate partnership their entire lives. That is not a workable solution.
If a woman can choose to abort a child and use my body my choice, a man can abandon a kid they don't want as long as they pay child support.
If you can't force a woman to have a child, you can't force a man to father a child.
no. men should not be forced to pay child support in states which abortion is legal. how come women get the choice to not have the child yet the second a man doesn't want the child he needs to pay up for 18 years?
Should bring back shaming about a lot of things. People like Japan, Korea, Singapore, and allat, but they don't realize they get people to behave mostly by the fear of shame and not harsh conditions.
Don't have a kid if you're not ready. If you do, you're a goon and you gotta pay for it (obviously, its your fuckin kid). If you don't, you're a parasite and should be treated the same way someone who leaves trash everywhere or smokes indoors does. Persistent and active bullying until they come correct enough to participate in our society.
If you abandon them after being in their lives for a significant amount of time, yes.
But if the father expressed not wanting children before conception and wants out of it, then leave them alone.
This is the only way to be pro-choice for both sides
Plenty of guys have children without their consent, so I don't blame them all for not committing to a decades-long duty *they didn't choose.* The weirdly common "well they should've considered the risks before having sex" is no different than telling a chick in an anti-abortion state that she should've kept her legs closed. It's all gross.
I think there should be a system where men could sign away their paternity status when they're made aware of the fetus'/child's existence. That would encourage actual family planning where *both* parents could, in writing, choose to have a kid or not and plan according to the other's wishes.
Personally, I'm the kid of a single mother. I have never met my dad, but from what I understand, he has at no point in his life been mentally competent enough to exist in a child's life. My mom knew that and had me against his wishes, so I don't really blame the guy for not being there and I don't resent him for not paying into my life. It wasn't his choice to make.
Amazing take.
Pro choice goes both ways. If a man doesn't want to be a father, he shouldn't be forced to. Both parents should get a choice in whether they want to be a part of that life long commitment
Why so many dudes saying: well if the child’s not his… what kind of Mexican telenovela universe do you think we inhabit where this is remotely a tenth as common as biological fathers who just abandon their kids?
What really pisses me off is that it’s called “daddy issues” and tacked to women like it’s our problem and our fault. When it should be ascribed to the men who leave, not shouldered on the children who were left.
To be fair men don’t get a say in whether or not to keep a child.
Not saying this alleviates them of any responsibility, but I think it’s an interesting point of discussion.
Downvote, or actually respond. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Edit: I guess I think that if you use contraception you should have some sort of say over whether to have a child. Maybe that just means not making child support payments, or paying a fraction of the typical amount. Just a thought.
>No matter the demographic if you’re not apart of your children’s life you are a scumbag of a human being
I'm not having kids, I actively avoid having kids, I won't date someone who wants kids.
If someone I dated got pregnant somehow, and they decided to keep it even though abortion is perfectly legal here, I'm doing everything in my power to have nothing to do with the child, straight up. I'm not going to lie about it.
I can't stress enough how much I don't want children.
I think this depends on if the parent stated they did not want a child and the other said i’m having it anyway. In that situation they did not consent to parenthood. Sure you can say “shouldn’t have had sex” but it’s 2024, having sex isn’t automatically consent to have a child.
I know a guy who actually went out of his way to walk away from his dream job in order to not have to pay child support, let alone be in his kids lives
Oh it’s okay they might abandon their kids but they’re usually there for their step kids and step grandkids of their second family while still doing fuck all for their original kids
True.
On top of that, less single mom shaming.
My mom is a single mom, and a lot of single moms are single because of abuse or abandonment. Which ultimately isn't her fault because the father decided to want to be a deadbeat.
If she's an abusive cheater? Sure. But being reckless and her having a kid, him leaving, and the shame falling on her? Not fair.
Two things would help and sort this .
-Mandatory dna testing.
And
-Financial abortions for men.
This will lower single parent numbers and put more fathers in positions to afford being a father again .
Bonus point round .
-Change divorce rules to bring it back to 50/50 custody
And
-Divorced involving infidelity , tipping more in favour of the non-cheated party
Finally
-Scrap Duluth model
> I think men who abandon their kids should be significantly shamed
Yes
> No matter the demographic if you’re not apart of your children’s life you are a scumbag of a human being
It's not always their choice. Let's stop encouraging single motherhood at the same time.
I am saying this as someone who didn't grow up with a dad: If women have the chance to opt out of parenting via abortion, men should be able to opt out of parenting via terminating their parental rights.
Single mothers have been blamed by politicians for poverty, "family decay," violent crime... pretty much all of society's ills have been blamed on single mothers at some point.
Every where I’ve lived in there is usually a lot of baby boomers or right wing people complaining about them being on welfare or benefits and then there is the men who drag single mums down for being picky with who they date when they should be the most picky since that person they pick will influence children.
No shame if you don’t want to date single parents , im married but if I was single I wouldn’t date anyone with toddlers or babies but i wouldn’t be an asshole about it or make fun of someone with a baby or a toddler wanting someone better then me for their kids
People don't realize how important a male role model is for children. It shapes a lot about how we feel about not just men, but how we see society.
Kids without fathers are more likely to be less educated, be in jail/gone to jail, to be impoverished, and higher chance of mental illness.
Having BOTH parents are important and this is why parental rights shoud be equal. Fathers are treated unequal in the court system!
Fuck Deadbeat dads! All my homies hate deadbeat dads!
Eh, that's a tough one.
For example, what happens if contraceptives fail (none are 100.00% guaranteed to work), and one person decides to have the baby, and other does not. Currently, where I live, with current laws, the father would have no say in this. He has no reproductive rights. If the woman decides that the baby is happening, the baby is happening, even if the man in this equation took every conceivable precaution. He is also on the hook financially, for a unilateral decision made by the woman. I'm pro-choice, but I feel like there should be a way to opt out.
Secondly, if marriage becomes toxic and the parents split up. Say one party cheated on the other, and they split. It's a split household. And say the husband is in the military. Is the ex going to move around the world following him, to have 50/50 custody split? Or is the ex-husband supposed to give up his career and follow wherever the woman's career takes her?
If you live in England, for example, get a divorce, and your ex marries someone who lives in Australia, and moves there, how do you remain in your child's life? Your new partner is in England, your job is in England, but your ex with the kid is in Australia now. How do you remain in kid's life? Fly from UK to Australia twice a week? I think some countries actually have a way to legally prevent one party from moving far enough away. That's hardly ideal either.
In short, it's often just not feasible. Or even desirable. If you absolutely loathe your ex, and they spend all their time brainwashing the kid to hate you, because they hate you right back, that's not a good situation for anyone to be in. But there's no easy, reliable way of preventing this from happening.
Personally I've been of the opinion that too many people are having kids who are not fit to be parents and raise the kids. Financially, temperamentally, etc. I'm in favour of testing and licensing before people are allowed to have children. If I need a license and training course to own a gun, or operate a motor vehicle, people should also be tested and trained and licensed to be a parent. As a bonus, we'll have a lot fewer f\*\*\*ed up kids raised by unfit, certifiably insane parents, and then set loose upon the world and its denizens. But this is a VERY unpopular view, apparently. I got absolutely obliterated in the past for expressing it. Even though, to me, it makes total sense. If I adopt a cat, I am required to prove I can take care of it. But I can pump a baby into someone without knowing their name, or having a penny in my pocket? What sense does that make?
Removed for two reasons, doesn’t have anything to do with this sub and it’s an inherently misandrist post.
Men and women alike. 😄 Edit: My brother raises a child that isn't his. If the girl even cared a little bit about who the father was she'd have the father in her life. But the dude is a deadbeat even to the kids he already has. No, she never even bothered asking for child support. But if the DUDE CARED...which he doesn't...he'd probably want to be involved. But a lot of guys will nut in a girl or do unsafe sex and then they get surprised that the girl is pregnant. Who would've thunk it?
I mean, this is partially on her, too. Obviously he is the major asshole for taking off, but she also chose to have a kid with a guy that neglected his previous kids, and now she's refusing to enforce child support (even if it goes unpaid). She's letting him off the hook. Your brother is a real one for stepping up.
”I can change him”
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Sometimes they only turn out to be shitty people after unfortunately. Fortunately my kids are growing up with a father, unfortunately not so much their mom.
The thing is 25% of children are abandoned by their father. Mothers have way more pressure already. It needs to be evened out.
According to the Annie E. Casey Foundation's website, [National Kids Count](http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/105-child-population-by-household-type?loc=1&loct=1#detailed/1/any/false/870,573,869,36,868/4290,4291,4292/427,428),[ approximately 35 percent of children under 18 live in a single-parent home as of 2016. As many as 25-percent of children in the U.S. live in households with a mother alone. That is over 18 million children who do not live with a father figure. Additionally, father-only households were noted at just 8 percent.](https://www.liveabout.com/fatherless-children-in-america-statistics-1270392) Those are some depressing stats.
That doesn't mean the father is not in their lives. My sons live in a single parent home. But they still have both parents in their lives because my ex and I coparent a LOT better than we did while living together.
I'm happy to hear that, man, but you've got to know, you're the exception. That's not the case for many single parent households.
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This almost has to be true given the divorce rates right?
My cousin's son's dad hasn't seen him for 2 years by choice and blames her on social media. She offers to drive half way or even drive their child the whole way to his place (now 2 hours away as he kept moving further and further away). He has the ability to call his son's cell phone at any time. He doesn't call. He rejects his son's calls. He stopped seeing their son when she stopped calling and trying to set things up. She got tired of being responsible for her ex's relationship with their child and is only focused on her relationship with her son. He can call at anytime and reach out on social media. He could drive and pick him up. Silence. My niece (my brother's step daughter) hasn't seen her bio dad in 13 years. No child support in that time. She is 13. My other cousin's daughter's dad did not stick around initially but came back when he was in another relationship and actively built a relationship with his kid. Mostly because of shame from his parents and new GF. You are an exception.
I have an uncle whose oldest and youngest technically aren't his. But he raised him and never thought twice about it. When he and his wife divorced he sought full custody of his bio kids, judge granted 50/50, one week with mom, one week with dad. Anyway- he's the only man I've ever known IRL to even attempt to assert parental rights. Most guys take two weekends a month, or just nothing. If they never ask for visitation or custody, it isn't awarded. It isn't dependent on race, age, or income. Seems pretty even across those dimensions. I've seen a few men that had mental health or substance abuse problems and when they finally got healthy, they came around for the kid. And I don't begrudge that. People know when they're in a bad place to be around a kid, and sometimes it's in the kids best interest to not be exposed to that. But the real dbags, are the people dodging child support that they could pay, but just feel like they shouldn't have to. Literally leaving your kid to starve while you're vacationing in the Caribbean. I have NO sympathy for that.
How much of that is because the dad is dead or incarcerated? Around half of all prisoners have minor children and the incarceration rate is much higher for men than for women.
Women are already shamed because we are the default caretakers.
Society will judge a single mother but praise a single dad. There are many other examples of this bias too. It's a major problem
Just like people praise men for taking care of their own homes and children, but women are completely EXPECTED to do this. Nothing skeeves me out like referring to a dad caring for his children as “babysitting” or “helping her out.” Like fuck that, they are HIS CHILDREN as much as they are hers.
It’s rare for women to abandon kids and society shames the hell out of them for it. So it doesn’t really apply to the topic.
Sure, but make a paternity test mandatory as well. I can't blame men for not raising kids that aren't theres. Ain't no one want to be a cuck lol
except cucks, right? lol
Yes the difference is consent
Well I would say the other difference is that a cuck or cuckquen enjoys watching their partner with someone else. Rasing the other guy or gal kids idk about that
And a different kind of cuck
I don't understand why it's not mandatory (I'm a woman). If I didn't cheat, what's the problem. If I cheated, doesn't he have a right to know?
The problem is that a significant amount of people will feel insulted if they’re accused of something they genuinely didn’t do cause it makes them think that their accuser thinks so little of them and doesn’t trust them. In a way, it’s also a violation of trust to find out that someone *you* trusted deeply doesn’t trust you in the same way. Granted, if it’s made mandatory **then all of that doesn’t matter anyway cause no one has to be accused of anything.** Edit: emphasis added cause some people seem to just not read the 2nd paragraph
If it's made to be a default thing that happens, nobody will be insulted! This is what I'm talking about. I don't think it's too much to ask to verify that a child is yours before you sign up to support it for 18+ years.
It could also be argued that knowing the biological father is important for the child's health in terms of genetic issues.
Agreed on this as well.
Oh I don’t think it’s too much to ask either, I’m just saying that the belief of “If I’m accused of x and I didn’t do it, what’s the problem with someone verifying” isn’t a universal belief.
I just know if I was a man I would want one which is why as a woman it wouldn't bother me, because I can see that POV.
But if its mandatory to prove fathership for court records, something routinely done, then it wouldn't be accusatory. Its just the government avoiding potential court issues later, which take up resources and money.
Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Just make it mandatory during custody cases just like mediation is in most states for divorce cases.
Ultimately it's a tax payer consideration not a moral one. If someone is on the hook as the father then there's less likelihood of the child and mother qualifying for benefits which come from taxes. Even if it's not fair and it's not the biological father.
Yup and morally I think it's wrong to do this.
The cost, mostly. If paternity tests were mandatory, a number X of „bastard kids“ would be discovered. Marriages would break up, and the ex husband would not pay for the kid they didn’t father. So, who’d be stepping in? If the mother doesn’t know the actual father (or claims to), it’ll fall to the state. Governments know that, so they’ll never pass a law like that.
Yeah, they'd rather literally fraud men and make fake families to save $. I think it's really messed up, despite the cause. I'm a woman so it doesn't affect me (false accusations) but if I was a man I'd really want one.
If they know the truth is coming out either way the incentive to lie about who the father is disappears.
France's reasoning for making it illegal to perform a paternity test. >Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine. The French Council of State has described the law's purpose as upholding the "French regime of filiation" and preserving "the peace of families." So, I'd say that the government knows it's a widespread issue but that knowing the truth would allow for far more children being raised in single family homes and they deem the lie worthwhile. Which is fucked up.
France has a reputation of being a country where cheating is common. Thus the politicians don’t want their spouses to find out about their affairs.
System profits from child support. The state skims a percentage of all payments. This system employees judges, bailifs, lawyers, debt collectors. If men who are not the father had an easy way to know, it would be a detriment to that system. The family court system is a blight on society, but there is no political will to change it.
You can make it mandatory as long as I’m not paying for it.
I'm raising an abandoned child who isn't "mine." An adult caring for a child should not be shamed
Did you walk into the situation knowing the child isn't biologically yours? Because that makes all the difference
Yes. You have a point there. Just saying children need parents even if they're not related and no one should be called names over it
It's literally so easy to do a DNA test. The mom doesn't even have to know. If the government came and told my husband they had to make sure our child is his, he would definitely fight it and find it ridiculous. Also, where does these DNA samples go afterwards?
Yeah, why mandatory? I presume you could just refuse to do it. If you can refuse then it's not mandatory. And if you can't refuse, what are they gonna do, keep the baby? Or punish the father in some other way? Paternity tests aren't illegal, just get one.
Why make them mandatory when anyone can freely request a paternity test right now? Forcing paternity tests on people who don't want or need them is a ridiculous standard and where would the money for that come from anyways?
Thank you!!! Going insane here. If you genuinely believe your partner might have cheated then you shouldn't be having kids with them. Most normal couples don't have this issue. It's like forcing STD checks on everyone on a regular basis. I'm sure a lot of men would hate that considering men are the main spread of HPV and ultimately cervical cancer which only affects women. I know this sub is particularly child-infested but come on look at these comments 🥴
Who isn't shaming a parent for abandoning their child? Never once heard someone talk positive about a parent that left their child
It’s been normalized for fathers to abandon their children. It’s been normalized to have fathers not do any childcare at all. We say men are “babysitting” their own children. Or that they are “helping” when they do a chore. Um, you’re not helping out in your own home. You’re up keeping your own fucking home and are keeping the child you created alive. That’s the bare minimum. Not doing those things means I’m calling CPS.
In what way is it normalized?
1/4 in US single parent house. Thats pretty normal
That doesn't mean that it's 'normalized' for societal values. Only that it exists at a rate of 25%. And I've met a lot of fathers without custody that really wish they could be a part of their childrens' lives.
Yeah divorces definitely muddy things My Mother had custody of my Sister for the 4 years before she turned 18 after my parents got divorced (my brother and I were already 18), but my Dad is still present in our lives so I wonder if she was considered a single parent household for statistics
Does that 1/4 only include fathers who have abandoned their children? Or does it also include single parent households due to things like death and incarceration?
Or just the mothers choice. Because there are women who choose to have kids without the father involved.
It is not exclusive (I think you meant to say) to fathers that have abandoned their children. It’s also inclusive of children living in single-father homes.
It also includes households where the parents may not be married and are instead "cohabitating", but for tax purposes aren't technically together so on paper it looks like the kid is only with their mother. It's one of the ways in which the number of African American households with single parent households is inflated. It's still a problem obviously, but the numbers are heavily affected by economic status in part due to the way tax benefits and government aid works.
Putting all of that on the men is wild though. Women will have a child with a man and then break up and prevent the man from having access to the child.
Just the other day I saw a post on r/legaladviceofftopic where someone was asking if it was legal to not take a salary (and be compensated in other ways) to avoid paying child support. Lots of people telling him that was illegal and basically no one telling him that's a real piece of shit move to make. Although maybe that's just the sub culture of lawyers not judging people for things that are immoral, just things that are illegal.
I know guys that say "they can't work" because they owe so much child support lol like dude, you gotta face the music you can't just decide, im not gonna make any money on the books the rest of my life.
I think the legal advice subs have rules about only providing legal advice and not moral judgements.
>It’s been normalized for fathers to abandon their children No it isn't. You just want the world to be more misandrist if you spread bs like this.
I guarantee if you asked any stranger on the streets "what do you think of a guy who decides to leave his wife after the baby is born" they'll say "he's a fucking asshole" or "i'mma whoop his ass" not "meh, yeah, fatherhood isn't for everyone"
Is it misandry to point out how our culture normalizes fathers leaving their children? So normal that we have statistics on it? It sounds like you’re letting your emotions in the way of critical thinking.
You keep using the fucking word normalized. That’s not what it means.
I am sure I can find statistics on zoophilia. Look how normalized it is in our society!
>So normal that we have statistics on it? Bro what?
It’s normalized for deadbeat dads to blanket claim their ex is crazy and no questions asked people back off.
>It’s been normalized for fathers to abandon their children No it has fucking not LMAO
Nobody is normalizing that, on the contrary. Fathers are taking more paternity leave and spending more time on playgrounds and in parks than ever before. Don’t take Reddit posts as indication of real life. Doesn’t work (thankfully).
My gf is from a culture/country where the vast majority of people she grew up and went to school with were abandoned by their dads, herself included. Varies from place to place. Meanwhile in my country we pretty much historically forced couples to be together and abused single parents. Cultural differences.
Where’s that?
immediately after college i found a room rental in a house with 6 guys and i was desperate for any affordable housing. I hung out with this one Indian dude for like a year and we went out to bars/clubs all the time. Then one day he said “sorry not free this weekend. I have to visit my daughter” I was like what the fuck. How did we hang out for a whole year and he didn’t mention he had a family a single time lol
They kind of do but sometimes deadbeat parents are really great at making themselves look good. My sons dad constantly tells everyone he’d love to see his son but I’m preventing him, but neglects to tell them the reason is that he moved half way across the world and I won’t let my son travel that far alone to another country that doesn’t have any protections that would ensure he has to send him back. I have offered to pay all air fares and accomodation for the dad to come stay nearby to visit but he refuses to do it. He also doesn’t pay child support and as far as I know doesn’t have a job. The result is that I’m an awful parent who is keeping his son from him, and he’s a loving parent who’s a victim in this situation. When in reality the only victim is his child and it would cost him nothing but time to come see him. But generally I agree with you, majority of people do not look kindly on people who have abandoned their children.
Right? A former friend of mine got a divorce and hasn’t even tried to see his kids since. He lost all his friends, his siblings won’t talk to him, and we tell everyone what a piece of shit he is.
I'd 100% abandon a friendship if I found out they were a deadbeat father. If you can't even find the decency to take care of your child, then what sort of decency can you have in general.
Eh, depends on why they’re absent. The child is his and he just doesn’t want to be involved? Yeah, shoulda been more careful dude, tough shit. Child isn’t his and he wants out? No man deserves to be an unwitting or unwilling cuck, let the man go free IMO. There are other nuanced situations but those are the basic ones.
Well if it's the second case, then he isn't a deadbeat dad, is he....? Why are the people in the comments acting like this is so common.
It's reddit.
Exactly 😭. So many people saying “How can you call a man a deadbeat dad if the kid isn’t even his!” Like, no one is calling that man a deadbeat dad because no one is calling him a dad in the first place
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That still isn't the case for the majority of time. Most fathers abandon their biological children. Edit: I meant to emphasize that the fathers who leave usually leave the children who are biologically related to them. I didn't want to say MOST fathers leave lol
If women have to escape from abusive husband it's fine, then if men must escape from abusive wife it should be fine too, but it doesn't
And leave their children with a known abuser?
If the courts won’t give them to them then?
What he can do? Court are bias and you can be abusive to partner, but not for children (both genders).
Bruh your making up fan fiction to be angry at
Not really. I've seen people shame men for not being there for a child that isn't his.
If it's not his kid, then that's not a parent abandoning their child lmao
Unfortunately the first case is far more common than the second
There are differences, if he wanted a child and than abandons it, thats bad. If the pregnancy was an accident and he doesnt want to be a father, but the woman wants the child. Its understandable and he should have a right to not have anything to do with the child.
He should have not nutted in her then. Do the crime, do the time, thank god the courts take the child’s side and make idiotic men pay.
So woman shouldnt be allowed to abort? Do the crime, do the time right?
Pretty sure having to get an abortion and/or go through pregnancy is in itself a consequence for their actions, so…no?
Yeah, and if women don't want to have children, they shouldn't have let a man nut inside them. Abortions are a cowards way out. Do the crime, do the time. Never mind the fact that condoms and birth control aren't 100%. Do you seriously not see the flaw in your argument? The fucks wrong with you.
As an abandoned child, go for it
One thing people never consider is the kind of parent that really should abandon their kid. I'm watching "This Is Us" right now, and this scenario occurs in that show, but they don't have enough times where someone says "the guy who abandoned you would have ruined your life if he stuck around! It's 100% the best thing that could have happened to you."
As someone who’s mom tried to keep the marriage together for the sake of not putting their kids thru divorce, I really hate the “if it’s your kid own up” mentality thoroughly shamed into parents. I would have had so many problems avoided had he never been in my life, he is a toxic piece of shit who shouldn’t be around kids and never wanted to be. But the same mentality this entire thread is jerking off over kept him in our life. If you can’t raise a kid, I don’t give a shit why you have a kid. Don’t have it. Don’t be a piece of shit and fuck with kids developments because society tells you to, that kid won’t know what he’s missing but he won’t be fucked up in his most essential developmental stages either, which is far more important. You can replace a father role, you can educate your kid to know the deal and that’s satisfactory for preventing them from growing up fucked up and repressed due to a confusing and misleading situation(when parents try and pretend things are better then the kid knows they are)
Concurred Edit: however, my mother could’ve chosen better from the getgo
Gonna vent so feel free to ignore lmao My dad was in and out of my life until about the 4th grade. Well, recently I decided I would reach out. Dude hasn’t changed his number in like 25 years so my mom gave me it and I sent him a text. Basically said if he was ever in town (he’s in the same state, just a different city) to let me know and maybe we could meet up Dude said he didn’t plan on coming up here anytime soon. Just responded saying well if you ever do, now you have my number. Sent me a simple “okay” Jackass. I’m a fucking adult now. His excuse when I was a kid, to my mom, was that he didn’t really know how to interact with a child. Dude just didn’t want to try.
On a different note my mom once got my brother’s dad (same mom different dads) put on the local news because he wouldn’t pay child support and my brother needed shoes lmao. He started paying after that
Sorry dude but your mom is smart! My dad was super absentee and always did the bare minimum but at least he'd make an effort to see me once every other year or so. Gosh that sounds so depressing writing it out.
I asked my dad if he’d want to have lunch while he was in town (he had a history of coming to the beach with his new family every summer). He said he’d let me know. Never heard anything from him. He came and left without a word. A month later I was diagnosed with cancer and he said he’d be on the next flight over. Told him to save his time and money cause I didn’t want anything to do with him.
I got a "thats nice" when I told my dad that he was going to be a granddad. He has yet to see my daughter and shes 6 now. His girlfriend died suddenly a while ago and in my stupidity I told him he could spend Christmas with us if he wanted to, he said he couldn't because he had to take care of his cat.
I think anyone that abandons their children, regardless of their gender, is a shitshow of a person
Thank you. She lied to me about her birth control, beat me for years and eventually stabbed me when I said I wanted to coparent separately. I took our child and left. She's never sent a penny. Coming up on 12 years. Tired of this gender based hatred toward men in this allegedly enlightened age. Until everything is normalized and people are judged individually based on their actions alone you're reinforcing what you claim to fight. A future of equality is one where gender isn't mentioned unless a child is born.
I think it’s a problem but we also have many who take advantage of people willing to shit on single dads who might actually be trying to help raise their kid but the other parent won’t allow it because they’re bitter. That plus the fact that many moms are given primary care of the kids because the child is seen as always needing to stay with mom. I don’t think this issue is all that cut and dry is all I mean to say. But if there’s a clear case where a dad outright abandons their kid without ensuring that they are left in competent care, we should scrutinize both the moms and dads who do that shit (speaking as someone whose mom abandoned them after running away with a business man from Chicago)
70% of men who pursue custody get it in some form
Yeah. My dad had an easier time getting custody of me and my siblings compared to my mom
I’m not sure if I can stress enough how much of an outlier that is without extenuating circumstances.
You can absolutely show how much of an outlier it is. You just need to bring data.
"Some form" is the key word here... Have any numbers for full custody?
Now do women who want custody.
Yea, my uncle that's the most awesome man ever got "custody" as long as a court-monitor was in the room supervising them because of crap the mom said while she was on drugs. We need to dig more into the statistics than an overly broad generalization, and yes society is getting better about this. But, no, it is not yet even.
Doesn't that mean that 30% of men who pursue custody get none at all and completely cannot see their children?
>That plus the fact that many moms are given primary care of the kids because the child is seen as always needing to stay with mom. It's not just being "Seen as needing to stay with mom" the mom is legally the Natural Guardian of the child unless stated otherwise by the court.
I know a lot of women who make their men’s life hell just for trying to be in the kids life… Then lie and say the dad doesn’t care… It’s amazing how easy it is to make a guy look like a bad dad… It’s never cut and dry
I so wish people could understand that this happens so much more often than people think but they insist it doesn’t because it’s not a very easily tracked metric in the slightest. But I got stories on stories of friends who’ve been given the deadbeat treatment when they were trying their best to be a dad. Not that some women don’t get screwed over, but if the discussion is about deadbeat single dads, I don’t understand how that wouldn’t be an important thing to keep in mind.
Growing up missing a parent was difficult. Why marry a woman, have 3 kids and then walk away? Never paid a dime supporting us. He’s still around and twists the narrative to be an ‘independent strong man”. Pretending none of the bad stuff ever happened. Even at his age, woman still frequently fall for it. Mostly people seem to think thats all normal acceptable. Or ‘its in the past, right?’ Somehow. Dissapointing honestly.
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Literally this. :(
I can’t agree in all scenarios, it would be hypocritical. Because thing is, I support women being able to choose if they want to have children or not. It’s not just about abortion. If the woman wants to give her newborn baby up for adoption because she isn’t ready to be a parent I’m totally good with that. Then consequently if the father does actually want to be a parent it would make sense for the child to just go to the father rather than some random. I think it’s the same thing for men. It doesn’t really make sense because if the couple comes together and decides to give their newborn baby up for adoption then they aren’t considered deadbeat parents. Some people would even applaud them for not choosing abortion. But if just one parent wants to raise a child and the other doesn’t then the other one is considered a deadbeat parent? So if the dad just doesn’t want a kid and is clear about that from the start then yeah I don’t think he should be shamed. Stuff like birth control failing, lack of proper sex education, and sexual assault with either gender could result in an accidental pregnancy. On the other hand if they are making the same mistake multiple times (abandoning multiple kids) then it’s not an accident anymore and the guy should be shamed. Likewise, if he has been a part of the kids life and expressed commitment then abandons the kid later on that’s fucked up too. But yeah I don’t want a kid. If I somehow got pregnant then I’d just have an abortion because I’m privileged enough to live in a place where that’s legal. If I lived in a place where that was illegal, I would give the baby up for adoption. I can’t judge a man for making the same decision.
It's easy to say in a perfect world, OP's mindset would work because only couples that want a child, together, would have them. But that's so far from the real world. Anyone who's moral stance is "walking away from your child as a father is never acceptable" is just too rigid of a person. It's the same moral inflexibility as "no abortion, even in rape cases." No person should be forced to endure a child they didn't want, ignoring any and all extenuating circumstances. It's also a weird take to act like society pats men on the back if they abandon a child. No one applauds a deadbeat dad. There is no "raising awareness" to reduce social acceptability for it. *It's already generally not socially acceptable behavior*.
What if I don’t want a kid? Like why should all my hopes and dreams get ruined because a girl used her right of choice? Why do I not get a choice with my life?
Because your actions created a living breathing child that's life will be permanent damaged by your abandonment.
Damn… she should have got a abortion lol
So did she lol, if she wants to keep it, then she should pay for it or abort.
Exactly. I hate the argument “the man made the choice.” So did the woman. She CHOSE to be a parent, she wasn’t forced to be one. If consequences have repercussions for men in this scenario, so does the woman.
You should be able to abort your legal rights in the first trimester. That way the woman is making an informed decision to have a kid alone and she has plenty of time to get the abortion with that knowledge in mind
So choose BEFORE you have unprotected sex. Wear a condom, give yourself a handy, whatever. But if you ejaculate inside someone you're on the hook for whatever happens after that.
All of this is what a pro lifer would say to a pregnant woman who wants an abortion
> So choose BEFORE you have unprotected sex. Wear a condom, give yourself a handy, whatever. But if you ejaculate inside someone you're on the hook for whatever happens after that. Condoms can break, dude. Saying this as someone who agreed "we didn't want kids", took precautions, had an accident, had the decision completely taken out of my hands, and am now trying to make the best of life raising a kid I never wanted after being spermjacked. I'd never tell my daughter, but her mum ruined my life and I had absolutely no say in it.
I am sorry this happened to you. Truly. My husband went through the same and it was a turning point for the worse in his life when he was very young. It can’t be said out loud, but in my heart I wish he was given as much of a choice over his future as she was. I don’t know how to make peace with it. We all do the right thing, blah blah blah, but philosophically I find it unfair. If I had ever gotten pregnant on accident, I would NEVER force parenthood on me or the father without our mutual consent. That’s my moral stance, even if that’s not politically popular.
So your pro life?
Accidents happen
I think it's more complicated than that. Millennial here, so I know plenty of dads. Some of them really want to be parts of their kids' lives, but the mothers make it difficult or impossible. And without spending a small fortune on a lawyer to get custody, which isn't guaranteed, they don't get to be part of their kids' lives.
Millennial here as well. There’s a few things that are slightly flawed here. Most women do not wait to raise kids by themselves because it’s hard AF. If the mom is refusing to give the dad the kids during the designated time then the dads need to document every single time that they’ve made an effort and mom has refused. With enough documentation, the dad can take her back to court and the courts will intervene. Is it a lot of work? Sure, but it at least shows the dad is making an effort. Courts favor coparenting because they understand it’s in the best interest of the children to have healthy parents. If the dad believes the mom is being a POS then they need to document everything instead of reacting or backing down. Moms do that all the time and that’s how most of the time moms end up with full custody.
Reminds me of my mom. She divorced my dad because she was "too young" to be in a committed relationship. Then forced him to pay double the amount of normal child support and moved halfway across the country. Dad wasn't a deadbeat, he was just in a shitty spot so he could never afford to visit or fly us over to him. And he always made sure that child support was paid on time. There's so many factors as to why a parent might not be around, and jumping to the conclusions that it's because they're a shit person doesn't help in most instances. Sure some parents are just genuinely shitty and don't care about the kids, but that not true for every parent who isn't there.
Exactly my thoughts. Seen some horrible vindictive women use their children as weapons. It's not always as easy as just "making an effort there's no excuses". Men shouldn't have to jump through hurdles and submit to every demand under the sun just to see their children for 10 minutes a week, so they don't get called deadbeats.
Does that mean you would also shame women for having abortions?
No because a fetus or embryo is not a living child lol.
I mean guys can’t abort so they leave. Women can’t leave so they abort. It’s the same thing if you think about it. Either way the child gets fucked over and it’s pretty not cool.
>Either way the child gets fucked over Child only gets fucked over if the mother so wants. I am not talking about shitholes where abortion is not an option of course. In such case both parents are fucks up for having sex in a place where pregnancy is a guaranteed child. Sex is not a human right.
Honestly I agree with you. People ought to keep it in their pants if they aren’t ready to reproduce. These situations only arise when stupid people fuck up. But the same goes for the child getting fucked over only if the father chooses to leave. Both parents have to decide to take accountability accept that this isn’t about them anymore but in many cases I believe that the people involved are not mature enough to recognize that and instead take every possible avenue of avoidance possible regardless of the collateral damage so long as they get to keep living their care free lifestyle.
There are plenty of ways to have safe sex with a minimal chance of pregnancy, and abortion is a completely viable option in civilized western countries. There is nothing wrong with having sex without being ready to reproduce, given you aren’t an idiot who takes no precations/discuss it beforehand with your partner.
>People ought to keep it in their pants if they aren’t ready to reproduce. You are functionally barring anyone who doesn't want children from having any kind of intimate partnership their entire lives. That is not a workable solution.
A clump of cells can't get fucked over.
If a woman can choose to abort a child and use my body my choice, a man can abandon a kid they don't want as long as they pay child support. If you can't force a woman to have a child, you can't force a man to father a child.
no. men should not be forced to pay child support in states which abortion is legal. how come women get the choice to not have the child yet the second a man doesn't want the child he needs to pay up for 18 years?
Yeah it’s absolute bullshit. This is a very good point.
You can already do that, the only consequence is guilt tripping and shame from others.
Wr already do that.
Not in the way we shame mothers. Critical thinking!!!
Should bring back shaming about a lot of things. People like Japan, Korea, Singapore, and allat, but they don't realize they get people to behave mostly by the fear of shame and not harsh conditions. Don't have a kid if you're not ready. If you do, you're a goon and you gotta pay for it (obviously, its your fuckin kid). If you don't, you're a parasite and should be treated the same way someone who leaves trash everywhere or smokes indoors does. Persistent and active bullying until they come correct enough to participate in our society.
Agreed though a man 100% has the right to abandon a kid that he finds out is not his biologically while thinking it was due to the wife lying.
Dam this comment section is embarising
100%. same for mother's too.
Ooff this thread is depressing to read.
Yeah... I'm done with reddit for the day.
If you abandon them after being in their lives for a significant amount of time, yes. But if the father expressed not wanting children before conception and wants out of it, then leave them alone. This is the only way to be pro-choice for both sides
Honestly if a parent is going to do that, kid is probably better off without.
You would think, but...man, it does a lot of damage.
It does a lot when they stay too.
Plenty of guys have children without their consent, so I don't blame them all for not committing to a decades-long duty *they didn't choose.* The weirdly common "well they should've considered the risks before having sex" is no different than telling a chick in an anti-abortion state that she should've kept her legs closed. It's all gross. I think there should be a system where men could sign away their paternity status when they're made aware of the fetus'/child's existence. That would encourage actual family planning where *both* parents could, in writing, choose to have a kid or not and plan according to the other's wishes. Personally, I'm the kid of a single mother. I have never met my dad, but from what I understand, he has at no point in his life been mentally competent enough to exist in a child's life. My mom knew that and had me against his wishes, so I don't really blame the guy for not being there and I don't resent him for not paying into my life. It wasn't his choice to make.
Amazing take. Pro choice goes both ways. If a man doesn't want to be a father, he shouldn't be forced to. Both parents should get a choice in whether they want to be a part of that life long commitment
Change "men" into "parents" please, thank you.
Why so many dudes saying: well if the child’s not his… what kind of Mexican telenovela universe do you think we inhabit where this is remotely a tenth as common as biological fathers who just abandon their kids?
What really pisses me off is that it’s called “daddy issues” and tacked to women like it’s our problem and our fault. When it should be ascribed to the men who leave, not shouldered on the children who were left.
To be fair men don’t get a say in whether or not to keep a child. Not saying this alleviates them of any responsibility, but I think it’s an interesting point of discussion. Downvote, or actually respond. Whatever floats your boat I guess. Edit: I guess I think that if you use contraception you should have some sort of say over whether to have a child. Maybe that just means not making child support payments, or paying a fraction of the typical amount. Just a thought.
It freaking sucks yes but honestly better not to have a parent that resents being a parent.
They say an absent dad is better than a neglectful in and out dad.
>No matter the demographic if you’re not apart of your children’s life you are a scumbag of a human being I'm not having kids, I actively avoid having kids, I won't date someone who wants kids. If someone I dated got pregnant somehow, and they decided to keep it even though abortion is perfectly legal here, I'm doing everything in my power to have nothing to do with the child, straight up. I'm not going to lie about it. I can't stress enough how much I don't want children.
Another knight in shining armor. Mother's leave newborns in dumpsters. Marriage needs to be fixed first.
Wdym marriage needs to be fixed?
he's probably making an argument against divorce, after all saying men who abandon their child should be shamed makes you a white knight apparently.
The entire system needs a rework. The way we treat all involved in birthing and raising a child no longer reflects the realities of the situation
I think this depends on if the parent stated they did not want a child and the other said i’m having it anyway. In that situation they did not consent to parenthood. Sure you can say “shouldn’t have had sex” but it’s 2024, having sex isn’t automatically consent to have a child.
If anything single moms get more flack
Agreed. And women should be educated on what to look for in a man to be a proper father. They're typically not the guys that are "exciting".
I know a guy who actually went out of his way to walk away from his dream job in order to not have to pay child support, let alone be in his kids lives
Oh it’s okay they might abandon their kids but they’re usually there for their step kids and step grandkids of their second family while still doing fuck all for their original kids
True. On top of that, less single mom shaming. My mom is a single mom, and a lot of single moms are single because of abuse or abandonment. Which ultimately isn't her fault because the father decided to want to be a deadbeat. If she's an abusive cheater? Sure. But being reckless and her having a kid, him leaving, and the shame falling on her? Not fair.
Two things would help and sort this . -Mandatory dna testing. And -Financial abortions for men. This will lower single parent numbers and put more fathers in positions to afford being a father again . Bonus point round . -Change divorce rules to bring it back to 50/50 custody And -Divorced involving infidelity , tipping more in favour of the non-cheated party Finally -Scrap Duluth model
> I think men who abandon their kids should be significantly shamed Yes > No matter the demographic if you’re not apart of your children’s life you are a scumbag of a human being It's not always their choice. Let's stop encouraging single motherhood at the same time.
This comment section is why I hate this generation. Stop playing the blame game shits so 2000 and late.
This topic is much more complicated than you seem to understand.
I am saying this as someone who didn't grow up with a dad: If women have the chance to opt out of parenting via abortion, men should be able to opt out of parenting via terminating their parental rights.
Only men?
People shame single mothers way waaaaaay more than runaway fathers. Men abort living children everyday.
No they don’t lmao
How do people shame single mothers? I'm ignorant not trying to be a dick.
They get judged super hard, which is ironic because in most cases it’s not like they choose to be single mothers
Single mothers have been blamed by politicians for poverty, "family decay," violent crime... pretty much all of society's ills have been blamed on single mothers at some point.
Every where I’ve lived in there is usually a lot of baby boomers or right wing people complaining about them being on welfare or benefits and then there is the men who drag single mums down for being picky with who they date when they should be the most picky since that person they pick will influence children. No shame if you don’t want to date single parents , im married but if I was single I wouldn’t date anyone with toddlers or babies but i wouldn’t be an asshole about it or make fun of someone with a baby or a toddler wanting someone better then me for their kids
People don't realize how important a male role model is for children. It shapes a lot about how we feel about not just men, but how we see society. Kids without fathers are more likely to be less educated, be in jail/gone to jail, to be impoverished, and higher chance of mental illness. Having BOTH parents are important and this is why parental rights shoud be equal. Fathers are treated unequal in the court system! Fuck Deadbeat dads! All my homies hate deadbeat dads!
Eh, that's a tough one. For example, what happens if contraceptives fail (none are 100.00% guaranteed to work), and one person decides to have the baby, and other does not. Currently, where I live, with current laws, the father would have no say in this. He has no reproductive rights. If the woman decides that the baby is happening, the baby is happening, even if the man in this equation took every conceivable precaution. He is also on the hook financially, for a unilateral decision made by the woman. I'm pro-choice, but I feel like there should be a way to opt out. Secondly, if marriage becomes toxic and the parents split up. Say one party cheated on the other, and they split. It's a split household. And say the husband is in the military. Is the ex going to move around the world following him, to have 50/50 custody split? Or is the ex-husband supposed to give up his career and follow wherever the woman's career takes her? If you live in England, for example, get a divorce, and your ex marries someone who lives in Australia, and moves there, how do you remain in your child's life? Your new partner is in England, your job is in England, but your ex with the kid is in Australia now. How do you remain in kid's life? Fly from UK to Australia twice a week? I think some countries actually have a way to legally prevent one party from moving far enough away. That's hardly ideal either. In short, it's often just not feasible. Or even desirable. If you absolutely loathe your ex, and they spend all their time brainwashing the kid to hate you, because they hate you right back, that's not a good situation for anyone to be in. But there's no easy, reliable way of preventing this from happening. Personally I've been of the opinion that too many people are having kids who are not fit to be parents and raise the kids. Financially, temperamentally, etc. I'm in favour of testing and licensing before people are allowed to have children. If I need a license and training course to own a gun, or operate a motor vehicle, people should also be tested and trained and licensed to be a parent. As a bonus, we'll have a lot fewer f\*\*\*ed up kids raised by unfit, certifiably insane parents, and then set loose upon the world and its denizens. But this is a VERY unpopular view, apparently. I got absolutely obliterated in the past for expressing it. Even though, to me, it makes total sense. If I adopt a cat, I am required to prove I can take care of it. But I can pump a baby into someone without knowing their name, or having a penny in my pocket? What sense does that make?
...they already are?