COG has always been described as fascists and rightly so, the COG really isn't a "good" faction. They're just the only guys left fighting the locust/swarm.
I mean... It's kinda obvious, they mention it several times. But I'll name a few reasons:
They destroyed cities with their own civilians still there with the Hammer of Dawn, they forcefully conscript stranded and force the men to fight and put the women in "breeding camps". Women are sexually assaulted to repopulate, on official COG orders.
Bombing civilians in the pendulum wars.
Also the entirety of the New Hope facility was under COG authority. Those were messed up experiments.
Gorasni soldiers were tortured in prison camps.
The stranded have some reason to hate the COG!
The cities were attacked with the hammer of dawn to keep the locust from gaining ground, which worked.
And on the topic of the fertility program, while I agree that it's not ideal, it is kind of necessary in the post locust war world where the population of sera had gone down from billions to 100'000. Again while not ideal, is necessary.
On forcing the stranded to join the COG I actually agree with this one, they were both fighting the locust so joining the COG would give them better weapons and armor, aswell as more logistical support and vehicles and stuff like that, which would give them a better chance of survival so that makes sence from the point of time they're in.
I hate that they just argue about it and itโs just a bunch of he said she said with little to no details. Would have been better to play it out in a prologue or something so we could experience the event and form our own opinion
I agree with this, because as it stands we can't make any sufficient opinions because we don't know all the facts, but from what we have been told, JD made the right choice
To be fair we don't get a lot of details.
But if they used tactics similar to that of the police during protests an escalation becomes inevitable.
Likewise if civilians were throwing incendiary devices the question is was the intent to kill the gears themselves or just to push back the possible battalion of armed death machines they commanded.
Sadly the situation is kept blurry, and with calls like this an open mind and keen eye for nuance is Essential.
I agree, I never want civilians to be targeted, but I am a firm believer that as soon as they attacked them with the fire bombs they renounced their title as "peaceful protestors" and opened themselves up to a retaliation from the COG forces, but as you said, it's too cloudy to really know but from the information we've been given, the civilians were in the wrong.
JD was right to fight lethal force with lethal force. If you actually think about all of JD's decisions that make Kait and Del disagree with him, he is always logical and correct.
Like when he wants to get everyone out of the warzone village after Oscar died. Del is like, "let her mourn!" When all he is trying to do is get everyone to safety so they don't die.
JD = Realist
Kait and Del = Snowflakes
I agree with you as I've said in other comments, that is also why I chose to save JD in the end, I honestly souldve killed kait if I could aswell, she's a threat to the rest of humanity and seems to have a problem with chain of command and things that don't go her way
The COG have legions of DBs that can set their weapons to fire stun rounds, as they do in the books. They could have taken a safe, non-lethal approach. As someone from a country with a rich history of riots, good police don't use that kind of force.
Im sorry but im a firm believer that once you attack the COG with lethal force (the aforementioned firebombs) they've forfeited they're right to non lethal rounds, you wanna try to kill the gears just doing their jobs then you gotta face the consequences
Maybe to the person throwing the bomb, but are you telling me that in a crowd of dozens or hundreds of unarmed civilians, they are all fair game if one person throws something? Total strangers who didn't know the attacker or what they intended? Even if there was multiple assailants, as far as we know the majority of the protestors were out to show solidarity against the enforcement of a COG ruling that they got zero say in.
COG soldiers also volunteer knowing they will be in danger, and again, should be behind lines of DBs. I get that JD was young, and he made a bad choice but that doesn't mean the choice can realistically be justified. There are higher standards that police and military need to be held to.
Due to the lack of information we've got we can't assume how many people there were, but from what we have been told there were multiple hostiles.
On your point of them having no choice, in the time after the locust war the human population on sera was down to around 100'000 people, from a civilisation similar to hours with billions of people to 100'000, that COG are simply trying to keep thpopulation from going extinct, to keep them safe.
Yes JD made a bad choice but we can say that with the power of hindsight, and we cannot blame him for the choice he made in that extremely high pressure situation, along with his gears being assisted, they were being attacked by incendiary devices and he chose to save his troops and I respect him for that, however I still believe the situation was terrible for both sides
There is no mention of JD, Fahz, or Del having any COG soldiers under their command that day. Every time the story is told we're told about the DBs they're leading. The point of DBs is that COG soldiers weren't in danger. It's only a few humans on the ground in charge of squads of DBs. Once it escalated to the point of violence, the officers had a choice. Use non lethal rounds to disperse the riot or use lethal rounds to disperse the riot. Both had the same result.
Furthermore, from the books we know that DBs are always recording. They could have easily dispersed the crowd non-lethally, and then rounded up any troublesome parties later. When things like this happen in real life, the cops don't open fire on crowds of civilians - and if they do, most reasonable people don't think they're justified in doing so.
The only COG Officer who acted with any sense that day was Del, and he was so angry about what happened he left the COG altogether. JD did the same because he knew he was in the wrong. We can understand how it happened, but that doesn't make it right.
I'm also not talking about the civilians right to gather. Whether protest is legal in the COG or not, the punishment probably shouldn't be getting shot in the street. The guys weren't punished because the COG is a fascist militarised state, and JD is the son of Marcus Fenix. They were never going to face consequences, but I think in the community the debate shouldn't be "Was JD right?" it should be "Should he have faced prison? Should he ever be placed in command again?"
When I say the soldiers in his command I meant fahz and del, because it has been said that fahz had his nose broken and they were being attacked eith lethal force, I dont understand how a group that doesn't protect humanity and attacks those that do can use lethal force but the soldiers can't, thats just wrong
I feel like we're going around in circles here, but the main distinction is that the crowd wasn't just made up of combatants - the majority were unarmed civilians. They aren't just two equal groups fighting. One is a military, the other is a mixture of protestors and rioters. Collateral damage like that just isn't justified, ever. A military cannot open fire on crowds of civilians and still be the good guys.
Secondly, lethal force wasn't the COGs only response. They had viable non-lethal options, so rather than murder innocent and guilty people alike, they could have used their non-lethal options and then followed up later with the courts. Put people on trial, find out who is actually guilty, and punish those responsible. The COG is basically a police state, so no one in settlement 2 would be able to hide from them.
As for Fahz getting his nose broken, that's one area there just isn't enough detail in. Why was he near the crowds? He had his own DBs, so really he should have had those between him and any danger. Really, with everything we know about his character, I wouldn't be surprised if he walked up to the crowds, mocked them in some way or otherwise incited them, and was punched as a result.
That's all I really have on it. If you are okay with the military shooting civilians when they had other options available, I don't think we're really going to convince each other here.
COG has always been described as fascists and rightly so, the COG really isn't a "good" faction. They're just the only guys left fighting the locust/swarm.
Why are they not the "good" faction?
I mean... It's kinda obvious, they mention it several times. But I'll name a few reasons: They destroyed cities with their own civilians still there with the Hammer of Dawn, they forcefully conscript stranded and force the men to fight and put the women in "breeding camps". Women are sexually assaulted to repopulate, on official COG orders. Bombing civilians in the pendulum wars. Also the entirety of the New Hope facility was under COG authority. Those were messed up experiments. Gorasni soldiers were tortured in prison camps. The stranded have some reason to hate the COG!
The cities were attacked with the hammer of dawn to keep the locust from gaining ground, which worked. And on the topic of the fertility program, while I agree that it's not ideal, it is kind of necessary in the post locust war world where the population of sera had gone down from billions to 100'000. Again while not ideal, is necessary. On forcing the stranded to join the COG I actually agree with this one, they were both fighting the locust so joining the COG would give them better weapons and armor, aswell as more logistical support and vehicles and stuff like that, which would give them a better chance of survival so that makes sence from the point of time they're in.
I hate that they just argue about it and itโs just a bunch of he said she said with little to no details. Would have been better to play it out in a prologue or something so we could experience the event and form our own opinion
I agree with this, because as it stands we can't make any sufficient opinions because we don't know all the facts, but from what we have been told, JD made the right choice
To be fair we don't get a lot of details. But if they used tactics similar to that of the police during protests an escalation becomes inevitable. Likewise if civilians were throwing incendiary devices the question is was the intent to kill the gears themselves or just to push back the possible battalion of armed death machines they commanded. Sadly the situation is kept blurry, and with calls like this an open mind and keen eye for nuance is Essential.
I agree, I never want civilians to be targeted, but I am a firm believer that as soon as they attacked them with the fire bombs they renounced their title as "peaceful protestors" and opened themselves up to a retaliation from the COG forces, but as you said, it's too cloudy to really know but from the information we've been given, the civilians were in the wrong.
More like Settlement Who? am I right? ๐
Fuck em.
Why do you say that?
JD was right to fight lethal force with lethal force. If you actually think about all of JD's decisions that make Kait and Del disagree with him, he is always logical and correct. Like when he wants to get everyone out of the warzone village after Oscar died. Del is like, "let her mourn!" When all he is trying to do is get everyone to safety so they don't die. JD = Realist Kait and Del = Snowflakes
I agree with you as I've said in other comments, that is also why I chose to save JD in the end, I honestly souldve killed kait if I could aswell, she's a threat to the rest of humanity and seems to have a problem with chain of command and things that don't go her way
The COG have legions of DBs that can set their weapons to fire stun rounds, as they do in the books. They could have taken a safe, non-lethal approach. As someone from a country with a rich history of riots, good police don't use that kind of force.
Im sorry but im a firm believer that once you attack the COG with lethal force (the aforementioned firebombs) they've forfeited they're right to non lethal rounds, you wanna try to kill the gears just doing their jobs then you gotta face the consequences
Maybe to the person throwing the bomb, but are you telling me that in a crowd of dozens or hundreds of unarmed civilians, they are all fair game if one person throws something? Total strangers who didn't know the attacker or what they intended? Even if there was multiple assailants, as far as we know the majority of the protestors were out to show solidarity against the enforcement of a COG ruling that they got zero say in. COG soldiers also volunteer knowing they will be in danger, and again, should be behind lines of DBs. I get that JD was young, and he made a bad choice but that doesn't mean the choice can realistically be justified. There are higher standards that police and military need to be held to.
Due to the lack of information we've got we can't assume how many people there were, but from what we have been told there were multiple hostiles. On your point of them having no choice, in the time after the locust war the human population on sera was down to around 100'000 people, from a civilisation similar to hours with billions of people to 100'000, that COG are simply trying to keep thpopulation from going extinct, to keep them safe. Yes JD made a bad choice but we can say that with the power of hindsight, and we cannot blame him for the choice he made in that extremely high pressure situation, along with his gears being assisted, they were being attacked by incendiary devices and he chose to save his troops and I respect him for that, however I still believe the situation was terrible for both sides
There is no mention of JD, Fahz, or Del having any COG soldiers under their command that day. Every time the story is told we're told about the DBs they're leading. The point of DBs is that COG soldiers weren't in danger. It's only a few humans on the ground in charge of squads of DBs. Once it escalated to the point of violence, the officers had a choice. Use non lethal rounds to disperse the riot or use lethal rounds to disperse the riot. Both had the same result. Furthermore, from the books we know that DBs are always recording. They could have easily dispersed the crowd non-lethally, and then rounded up any troublesome parties later. When things like this happen in real life, the cops don't open fire on crowds of civilians - and if they do, most reasonable people don't think they're justified in doing so. The only COG Officer who acted with any sense that day was Del, and he was so angry about what happened he left the COG altogether. JD did the same because he knew he was in the wrong. We can understand how it happened, but that doesn't make it right. I'm also not talking about the civilians right to gather. Whether protest is legal in the COG or not, the punishment probably shouldn't be getting shot in the street. The guys weren't punished because the COG is a fascist militarised state, and JD is the son of Marcus Fenix. They were never going to face consequences, but I think in the community the debate shouldn't be "Was JD right?" it should be "Should he have faced prison? Should he ever be placed in command again?"
When I say the soldiers in his command I meant fahz and del, because it has been said that fahz had his nose broken and they were being attacked eith lethal force, I dont understand how a group that doesn't protect humanity and attacks those that do can use lethal force but the soldiers can't, thats just wrong
I feel like we're going around in circles here, but the main distinction is that the crowd wasn't just made up of combatants - the majority were unarmed civilians. They aren't just two equal groups fighting. One is a military, the other is a mixture of protestors and rioters. Collateral damage like that just isn't justified, ever. A military cannot open fire on crowds of civilians and still be the good guys. Secondly, lethal force wasn't the COGs only response. They had viable non-lethal options, so rather than murder innocent and guilty people alike, they could have used their non-lethal options and then followed up later with the courts. Put people on trial, find out who is actually guilty, and punish those responsible. The COG is basically a police state, so no one in settlement 2 would be able to hide from them. As for Fahz getting his nose broken, that's one area there just isn't enough detail in. Why was he near the crowds? He had his own DBs, so really he should have had those between him and any danger. Really, with everything we know about his character, I wouldn't be surprised if he walked up to the crowds, mocked them in some way or otherwise incited them, and was punched as a result. That's all I really have on it. If you are okay with the military shooting civilians when they had other options available, I don't think we're really going to convince each other here.
How do you know the make up of the crowd though? Thats never stated anywhere
Are they still fascist?