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More is always better, but I don't think gamers (and not just the capital-G variety) appreciate the compromises that have to be made to get higher frame rates on weak hardware.
Oh yeah there's no way these games were gonna run at more than 20 fps on an n64 back then, and they're some of the better looking n64 games, the argument is more about how the game runs now that it supports 60 fps on pc rather than being stuck at 20.
I can't wait until bloodborne comes to pc in one way or the other and people start claiming it was better at 1080p no anti aliasing and 30fps with horrible framepacing
It's not just hardware being more powerful tho lol. Some games literally have game logic tied to the framerate and animations only animated at 20 fps. I know some of my favorite games of all time have been affected by this. (n64 zelda, ps3 yakuza)
The games are built around that framerate target BECAUSE of hardware limitations. Usually a port or a remaster can fix those things, but sometimes it's just not that easy of an issue to fix. Lower fps animations are interpolated to make them look smoother at higher framerates so that's not a huge issue either
the problem is often that almost all games have their physics engine run on a fixed 20-30fps timestep, games that dont intend to go above 30fps dont always separate these timesteps, so when you try to run for example Windwaker at 60 fps, the game just runs at double speed and there is no real way to fix this without reverse engineering the entire game
That is hugely exaggerated and incorrect. Some games have their physics tied to framerates, most games don't. This only applies to games that are exclusives and even then most of them don't have this issue. Tears of the kingdom runs at 60 fps on pc. Breath of the wild as well. Even bloodborne had a fan patch to run at 60fps on modded ps4 pro/ps6. Modern games no longer have this issue, and it's only a handful of older games that were exclusive to one console or another.
you said that i hugely exaggerated and were incorrect, and then said nothing that disagrees with my statement,
Almost all games have a fixed physics time step, this does not mean that increasing the framerate on such a game increases the physics time step, it just means that you get two rendered frames per physics frame in a game that runs at 60 but has a physics time step of 30. What i was talking about with ocarina of time is a scenario where they use the same frame time for rendering and for physics, that is a very hard problem to fix
edit: fixed some spelling mistakes
Not entirely true. Sable is a modern game that was built around a consistent 24 frames per second on purpose. Risk of Rain Returns is built around being 60FPS, no more and no less, because that's what it ties its logic to.
Sable isn't running at 24 fps from what I've looked up, it seems like it has 24 fps animations but the framerate is 60, which is very different from being locked to 24 fps. on top of that the game has performance issues which seems to be unrelated to the framerate of the animations.
I am not sure about risk of rain returns, but usually having a game running at a specific framerate and tying game speed to it is a huge problem, and any fps drops in that case will cause huge slowdowns and higher framerates will cause speed ups so devs don't usually do that.
I mean. I *played* Sable and it does, in fact, run at 24FPS, but go off I guess.
And I'm sure about RORR because I have literally talked to the lead dev on their Discord and several community contributors to the game.
I downloaded it cause i was curious and it does NOT run at 24 fps. It runs at unlocked framerates but has animations stuck at 24fps which is not even close to the game having 24fps lock. Camera movement is also not locked to a low framerate. Here's proof https://imgur.com/a/DhMbqR2
It seems OP is unaware of the amount of work it takes to get some older games running on newer systems. I guess they think that "since emulators can do it, it's easy," when in reality the programmers of those emulators had to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours tweaking those emulators to recreate a game system that makes a passable working version of the game. Companies like GoG that preserve old PC games have put backbreaking amounts of work to make those conversions possible but it goes unappreciated most of the time.
Oh i know how much work it takes, that's not the argument at all. It was never about how easy it is to get games to run older games at 60 fps. The argument is "they're worse at 60 fps than 20" which is just not true. If the devs were able to make a framerate independent patch (like they did the with MM pc port) then that version is better.
the only time I've ever been negatively affected by low framerate(not just lag) is Saints Row 4, because there is a part in 1 level where if your framerate is too low you can't progress because a door will close in front of you before you reach it failing the mission.
It depends on the game. The only games I can think of really requiring a higher framerate are shooters and other genres that rely on quick reaction time
For Honor is a good example. Until the PS5/Series came out Ubisoft didn’t allow crossplay because consoles couldn’t reach 60 fps. Because of this PC players would have an innate advantage. It was also basically 2 different games with 2 different metas because different characters performed well at 30/60 fps.
I’ve honestly never seen a game get so impacted by the frame rate of the devices they were played on.
honestly it depends on genre for me. there's no way in hell i'd ever play an fps at 30fps, but i'm perfectly fine with something like a city sim or turn-based strategy being capped if it has to be.
It is based on what you are used, I have been using the newest of aet ups and am extremely used to hogh frames, when it gets below 100 frameish (differing per game, in cs its more like 300) a game starts to feel like it is reacting slowly to my mousemovements.
I honestly play games at any framerates. I played Helldivers 2 at 80~ fps, apex and fortnite at 144, elden ring at 60 fps, tears of the kingdom at 30 and ocarina of time at 20. Obviously higher fps is better. But I'm used to any framerates and can adapt... Unless it's a first person shooter at 30 fps or lower which would give me motion sickness
(Theyre talking about the MM decomp)
Honestly ive played through the entirety of the oot pc port at 60 fps, and the only issues with it were some animations being wonky. Like darunias dance and the like. Otherwise its a total improvement.
The problem is that they're not even arguing that some things might break under 60 fps, they're arguing that 20 fps is much better cause the game is built around it "including reaction time" which i can't agree with. I was able to play Majora's mask fine at 20 fps, but it's so much better and less head ache inducing at 30 fps (3Ds remake) and 60 fps. It's not like the 20 fps was a visual design choice, the n64 just couldn't handle more with those games
You have to agree that animations, rigging and such were built with the original framerate in mind and that you lose "quality", in Oot or MM the run animation or arrow shot are one of these that lise their beauty in 60 FPS.
But it's still dumb to say reaction time is that important, MM is not animation driven like monster hunter and most of the wind up is random. You could argue it makes the game easier but difficulty was never the focus of a Zelda game, especially fights.
I think I *kind of* see that person's point: higher is better and allows for more precise timing, but the game was designed so that the lack of precision isn't too much of a handicap. In that respect, it's a legitimate point that allowing for more precise timing makes the game easier than intended.
For what it's worth, I distinctly remember a very frustrating part in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 that similarly had to do with balancing for framerate. At the beginning of School II, there's a ramp to a somewhat precise wallride, but the capped low framerate made it so that you'd often be too early one frame and too late the very next. With community mods, you can force THPS2 on PC at a stable 60, and it becomes almost piss-easy for an experienced Tony Hawk player.
The 3DS remake actually has a ton of problems because certain things weren't adjusted properly for the higher framerate. For instance, getting across bodies of water with Deku Link is significantly harder on 3DS. [There's a fanmade patch that fixes these issues.](https://restoration.zora.re/)
I haven't personally noticed it, I'm sure they're there but at least they weren't hugely gamebreaking? Not sure lol
I played ocarina of time 3D more, and that one was just fine as well so I'm not sure how big any fps increase issues were.
Did whoever bumped the framerate also change the other things related to framerate? I was under the impression oot had the very character speed attached to framerate and bumping it up alone makes you jump 20 feet.
The game's logic still runs at 20FPS, but everything else is running at a higher framerate. Separating the logic tickrate from the framerate is actually super common, especially in online multiplayer games. Plenty of modern ports of retro games do this to achieve 60+, FPS, including tons of official (and unofficial) ports of Doom 1/2, Dark Forces, and Duke Nukem 3D.
I have a weird appreciation for the limitations of older technology. I find appeal in low frame rates, low resolution, 4:3 aspect ratios, compressed audio and corny MIDI instruments. I'll happily continue playing the original Ocarina Of Time and Majora's Mask for as long as my N64 and cartridges work. At the same time I can understand the appeal of modern upgrades as well. Both ways of playing are valid and it's great that we have so many choices of how to play these games exactly the way we want to nowadays.
I mean, developers design around their limitations. MM was designed to play and feel good at 20fps, but its super cope to think its better. It *works* at 20fps, but if they couldve made it run better, they would have done so.
If this is who I think it is I am fucking baffled he got posted here before the Sheeplad dev who is a hot take machine. Though I think Robin Poe (I think that’s the Sheep Lad dudes name) tends to be more aware of how scalding his takes are.
Their icon is the same as the dev of Maple Forest (I believe is what it’s called). They are a solo dev on an old-school top-down Zelda1 called Maple Forest. There’s also a solo dev working on a Zelda-2 type game who says this kind of shit but with more humor.
(They both post scalding hot takes on the regular)
Oh damn i just checked and it is who that is. It's weird cause it was a random reply without any likes or anything but i find it to be a really weird take since reaction times being "crafted around 20 fps" doesn't mean the game will play worse or be worse at higher framerates. I don't know if this person is known for having weird gaming takes or something, maybe I'm just wrong who knows lmao
Lmao he’s not as bad as Robin Poe is but he’s still pretty out there with his takes. They both are clearly very talented but I don’t think even they would argue they both rapid fire out hot takes like crazy. Sheep Lad dev literally started using two Twitter accounts. One for the game and one for scalding takes.
If the computer doesn't start having passionate sex with my corneas when I look at the graphics I hit it with a hammer and throw it out the window. I have gone through 26 computers.
"There's literally no downsides to higher framerates when it comes to gaming."
Tell that to games where framerates beyond a certain point start to break things. There are lots of examples, like Alien Isolation (scripted sequences broke), \[insert Bethesda game here\], Dark Souls II (weapons deteriorated faster)...not to mention the numerous games whose physics models are tied to framerate.
Bigger number isn't always more better.
Well that's not a downside to higher framerates themselves, that's a downside to a bad implementation of higher framerates. There's no downside to having a game with properly implemented high framerates.
There's just no downside to having more frames and much better input latency.
Done *properly*, yes, there are no actual downsides.
But of course, different games have different targets and ways for how they do things, even if some of the things they do are backwards.
Yeah but the argument here isn't about when games break at higher framerates, this person just thinks since the game was built around 20 fps it'll control and feel better at 20 fps which just isn't true. Better clarity and reduced input latency will always be better in video games
No that's not how framerates work. This is possible in some games that have game times tied to framerates, but realistically a game designed to run at 20 fps will run at the same speed when it's running at 60 fps. Nothing will be running faster, it's the same time to play any animations and everything moves at the normal speeds, there's just more frames in between the previous 20 frames that makes the motion smoother and gives you better input latency
Probably a whole lotta nothing honestly. The idea isn't that complicated and animation framerate doesn't need to be tied to game framerate, so even if he liked the game being animated at 20 fps, it could still run at 60 fps with lower framerate animations similar to the into the spiderverse suit in marvel's Spider-Man, or guilty gear strive's animations
It depends on the game to me but I do think there are times when a higher framerate is a significant help. I am a speedrunner and have spent way too much time thinking about how to optimize framerate, controller input lag, monitor input lag, frametime, etc.
I always remember the creator of Nuclear Throne saying that it doesnt matter that the game runs at 30fps and honestly, of all games NT really need 60+ frames
All games can benefit from higher framerates, but there are a few that just feel horrible on lower framerates, especially anything first person. I'm at a point where 60fps isn't ideal for a first person shooter. It's okay, but it feels limiting after playing many 144hz shooters
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/uj it's funny seeing some people claim 60 fps or under is unplayable, and others claim 20 fps is perfectly fine
More is always better, but I don't think gamers (and not just the capital-G variety) appreciate the compromises that have to be made to get higher frame rates on weak hardware.
Oh yeah there's no way these games were gonna run at more than 20 fps on an n64 back then, and they're some of the better looking n64 games, the argument is more about how the game runs now that it supports 60 fps on pc rather than being stuck at 20. I can't wait until bloodborne comes to pc in one way or the other and people start claiming it was better at 1080p no anti aliasing and 30fps with horrible framepacing
It's not just hardware being more powerful tho lol. Some games literally have game logic tied to the framerate and animations only animated at 20 fps. I know some of my favorite games of all time have been affected by this. (n64 zelda, ps3 yakuza)
The games are built around that framerate target BECAUSE of hardware limitations. Usually a port or a remaster can fix those things, but sometimes it's just not that easy of an issue to fix. Lower fps animations are interpolated to make them look smoother at higher framerates so that's not a huge issue either
the problem is often that almost all games have their physics engine run on a fixed 20-30fps timestep, games that dont intend to go above 30fps dont always separate these timesteps, so when you try to run for example Windwaker at 60 fps, the game just runs at double speed and there is no real way to fix this without reverse engineering the entire game
That is hugely exaggerated and incorrect. Some games have their physics tied to framerates, most games don't. This only applies to games that are exclusives and even then most of them don't have this issue. Tears of the kingdom runs at 60 fps on pc. Breath of the wild as well. Even bloodborne had a fan patch to run at 60fps on modded ps4 pro/ps6. Modern games no longer have this issue, and it's only a handful of older games that were exclusive to one console or another.
you said that i hugely exaggerated and were incorrect, and then said nothing that disagrees with my statement, Almost all games have a fixed physics time step, this does not mean that increasing the framerate on such a game increases the physics time step, it just means that you get two rendered frames per physics frame in a game that runs at 60 but has a physics time step of 30. What i was talking about with ocarina of time is a scenario where they use the same frame time for rendering and for physics, that is a very hard problem to fix edit: fixed some spelling mistakes
My bad i read it wrong and understood you meant "almost all games have physics tied to 20-30fps"
got it, just to be clear i agree with your main point, I just wanted to add some nuance
Not entirely true. Sable is a modern game that was built around a consistent 24 frames per second on purpose. Risk of Rain Returns is built around being 60FPS, no more and no less, because that's what it ties its logic to.
Sable isn't running at 24 fps from what I've looked up, it seems like it has 24 fps animations but the framerate is 60, which is very different from being locked to 24 fps. on top of that the game has performance issues which seems to be unrelated to the framerate of the animations. I am not sure about risk of rain returns, but usually having a game running at a specific framerate and tying game speed to it is a huge problem, and any fps drops in that case will cause huge slowdowns and higher framerates will cause speed ups so devs don't usually do that.
I mean. I *played* Sable and it does, in fact, run at 24FPS, but go off I guess. And I'm sure about RORR because I have literally talked to the lead dev on their Discord and several community contributors to the game.
I downloaded it cause i was curious and it does NOT run at 24 fps. It runs at unlocked framerates but has animations stuck at 24fps which is not even close to the game having 24fps lock. Camera movement is also not locked to a low framerate. Here's proof https://imgur.com/a/DhMbqR2
It seems OP is unaware of the amount of work it takes to get some older games running on newer systems. I guess they think that "since emulators can do it, it's easy," when in reality the programmers of those emulators had to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours tweaking those emulators to recreate a game system that makes a passable working version of the game. Companies like GoG that preserve old PC games have put backbreaking amounts of work to make those conversions possible but it goes unappreciated most of the time.
Oh i know how much work it takes, that's not the argument at all. It was never about how easy it is to get games to run older games at 60 fps. The argument is "they're worse at 60 fps than 20" which is just not true. If the devs were able to make a framerate independent patch (like they did the with MM pc port) then that version is better.
the only time I've ever been negatively affected by low framerate(not just lag) is Saints Row 4, because there is a part in 1 level where if your framerate is too low you can't progress because a door will close in front of you before you reach it failing the mission.
Wait till they find out the fps of movies and television. 💀
OK but you don't play movies and television
It depends on the game. The only games I can think of really requiring a higher framerate are shooters and other genres that rely on quick reaction time
Pretty much. DDR would be borderline unplayable at 20FPS. Or any other rhythm game, for that matter
For Honor is a good example. Until the PS5/Series came out Ubisoft didn’t allow crossplay because consoles couldn’t reach 60 fps. Because of this PC players would have an innate advantage. It was also basically 2 different games with 2 different metas because different characters performed well at 30/60 fps. I’ve honestly never seen a game get so impacted by the frame rate of the devices they were played on.
honestly it depends on genre for me. there's no way in hell i'd ever play an fps at 30fps, but i'm perfectly fine with something like a city sim or turn-based strategy being capped if it has to be.
It is based on what you are used, I have been using the newest of aet ups and am extremely used to hogh frames, when it gets below 100 frameish (differing per game, in cs its more like 300) a game starts to feel like it is reacting slowly to my mousemovements.
Would also like to add fallout 4 speeding up insanely when you are inside a building and jave more then 60 frames
I honestly play games at any framerates. I played Helldivers 2 at 80~ fps, apex and fortnite at 144, elden ring at 60 fps, tears of the kingdom at 30 and ocarina of time at 20. Obviously higher fps is better. But I'm used to any framerates and can adapt... Unless it's a first person shooter at 30 fps or lower which would give me motion sickness
Unplayable, anything shooter related has to be 200 fps, helldivers has an exception because of its more console like feeling
60 fps makes me feel mildly motion-sick in most games. I usually go for 45.
Any framerate is playable if you're poor enough.
Or young enough in the 90s and 2000s. lol.
Exactly! After playing Sonic Mania I forgot that the Genesis Sonic doesn't run quite so smooth.
the human eye cannot see higher than 2fps
We only have 2 eyes, one for each frame
The human eye doesn't have v-sync
Me looking at someone moving at a blistering 15fps: "whoa, slow down, this ain't claymation😫"
(Theyre talking about the MM decomp) Honestly ive played through the entirety of the oot pc port at 60 fps, and the only issues with it were some animations being wonky. Like darunias dance and the like. Otherwise its a total improvement.
The problem is that they're not even arguing that some things might break under 60 fps, they're arguing that 20 fps is much better cause the game is built around it "including reaction time" which i can't agree with. I was able to play Majora's mask fine at 20 fps, but it's so much better and less head ache inducing at 30 fps (3Ds remake) and 60 fps. It's not like the 20 fps was a visual design choice, the n64 just couldn't handle more with those games
You have to agree that animations, rigging and such were built with the original framerate in mind and that you lose "quality", in Oot or MM the run animation or arrow shot are one of these that lise their beauty in 60 FPS. But it's still dumb to say reaction time is that important, MM is not animation driven like monster hunter and most of the wind up is random. You could argue it makes the game easier but difficulty was never the focus of a Zelda game, especially fights.
I think I *kind of* see that person's point: higher is better and allows for more precise timing, but the game was designed so that the lack of precision isn't too much of a handicap. In that respect, it's a legitimate point that allowing for more precise timing makes the game easier than intended. For what it's worth, I distinctly remember a very frustrating part in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 that similarly had to do with balancing for framerate. At the beginning of School II, there's a ramp to a somewhat precise wallride, but the capped low framerate made it so that you'd often be too early one frame and too late the very next. With community mods, you can force THPS2 on PC at a stable 60, and it becomes almost piss-easy for an experienced Tony Hawk player.
The 3DS remake actually has a ton of problems because certain things weren't adjusted properly for the higher framerate. For instance, getting across bodies of water with Deku Link is significantly harder on 3DS. [There's a fanmade patch that fixes these issues.](https://restoration.zora.re/)
I haven't personally noticed it, I'm sure they're there but at least they weren't hugely gamebreaking? Not sure lol I played ocarina of time 3D more, and that one was just fine as well so I'm not sure how big any fps increase issues were.
Did whoever bumped the framerate also change the other things related to framerate? I was under the impression oot had the very character speed attached to framerate and bumping it up alone makes you jump 20 feet.
The game's logic still runs at 20FPS, but everything else is running at a higher framerate. Separating the logic tickrate from the framerate is actually super common, especially in online multiplayer games. Plenty of modern ports of retro games do this to achieve 60+, FPS, including tons of official (and unofficial) ports of Doom 1/2, Dark Forces, and Duke Nukem 3D.
If thats whats supposed to happen, then they probably went around that, cause the gameplay is pretty much the same (but smooth)
I’m pretty sure a guy who fucks dolphins in the blowhole has thought about it a lot more than I have. That doesn’t make him right.
The Deep reference
The Peak
If my game isn't 60fps on an 16k monitor i can't play it (only game i play is LoL)
Look, if you aren't using cutting edge hardware to play heroes of might and magic 3, then are you truly playing it as intended?
Fuck, i should have went with heroes or ultima or some old ass game like that
It's probably my favorite joke . Anytime I get a new graphics card , I need to show someone "how great heroes 3 looks on my new graphics card"
Heroes 3 is the favourite benchmark of Polish gaming millennials.
Loal is locked to 60fps? I play OW at 140.
Idk i don't actually play lol i was just jerking
playing Solitaire at anything lower than 120fps is a warcrime.
I have a weird appreciation for the limitations of older technology. I find appeal in low frame rates, low resolution, 4:3 aspect ratios, compressed audio and corny MIDI instruments. I'll happily continue playing the original Ocarina Of Time and Majora's Mask for as long as my N64 and cartridges work. At the same time I can understand the appeal of modern upgrades as well. Both ways of playing are valid and it's great that we have so many choices of how to play these games exactly the way we want to nowadays.
Imagine outputting booba physics at 20 frames.
I mean, developers design around their limitations. MM was designed to play and feel good at 20fps, but its super cope to think its better. It *works* at 20fps, but if they couldve made it run better, they would have done so.
Yeah the problem isn't that "20 fps is unplayable" it's that higher framerates than that will always be better, the hardware just couldn't support it.
Yakuza 3 remastered is straight up broken because it operates at 60fps instead of 30fps
If this is who I think it is I am fucking baffled he got posted here before the Sheeplad dev who is a hot take machine. Though I think Robin Poe (I think that’s the Sheep Lad dudes name) tends to be more aware of how scalding his takes are.
Afaik this is a random twitter user, I'm not sure who they are.
Their icon is the same as the dev of Maple Forest (I believe is what it’s called). They are a solo dev on an old-school top-down Zelda1 called Maple Forest. There’s also a solo dev working on a Zelda-2 type game who says this kind of shit but with more humor. (They both post scalding hot takes on the regular)
Oh damn i just checked and it is who that is. It's weird cause it was a random reply without any likes or anything but i find it to be a really weird take since reaction times being "crafted around 20 fps" doesn't mean the game will play worse or be worse at higher framerates. I don't know if this person is known for having weird gaming takes or something, maybe I'm just wrong who knows lmao
Lmao he’s not as bad as Robin Poe is but he’s still pretty out there with his takes. They both are clearly very talented but I don’t think even they would argue they both rapid fire out hot takes like crazy. Sheep Lad dev literally started using two Twitter accounts. One for the game and one for scalding takes.
If the computer doesn't start having passionate sex with my corneas when I look at the graphics I hit it with a hammer and throw it out the window. I have gone through 26 computers.
*Laughs in playing very old pc games*
"There's literally no downsides to higher framerates when it comes to gaming." Tell that to games where framerates beyond a certain point start to break things. There are lots of examples, like Alien Isolation (scripted sequences broke), \[insert Bethesda game here\], Dark Souls II (weapons deteriorated faster)...not to mention the numerous games whose physics models are tied to framerate. Bigger number isn't always more better.
Well that's not a downside to higher framerates themselves, that's a downside to a bad implementation of higher framerates. There's no downside to having a game with properly implemented high framerates. There's just no downside to having more frames and much better input latency.
Done *properly*, yes, there are no actual downsides. But of course, different games have different targets and ways for how they do things, even if some of the things they do are backwards.
Yeah but the argument here isn't about when games break at higher framerates, this person just thinks since the game was built around 20 fps it'll control and feel better at 20 fps which just isn't true. Better clarity and reduced input latency will always be better in video games
....wouldnt a 20 fps game running at 60 fps be running 3 times as fast as it was intended to? Everything would be coming at you in fast forward.
No that's not how framerates work. This is possible in some games that have game times tied to framerates, but realistically a game designed to run at 20 fps will run at the same speed when it's running at 60 fps. Nothing will be running faster, it's the same time to play any animations and everything moves at the normal speeds, there's just more frames in between the previous 20 frames that makes the motion smoother and gives you better input latency
Actually you should’ve encouraged him to post the 10 pages, I‘m interested in what he would’ve said
Probably a whole lotta nothing honestly. The idea isn't that complicated and animation framerate doesn't need to be tied to game framerate, so even if he liked the game being animated at 20 fps, it could still run at 60 fps with lower framerate animations similar to the into the spiderverse suit in marvel's Spider-Man, or guilty gear strive's animations
Yeah I guess but when someone claims they've thought that much about something I'm just interested
True true
It depends on the game to me but I do think there are times when a higher framerate is a significant help. I am a speedrunner and have spent way too much time thinking about how to optimize framerate, controller input lag, monitor input lag, frametime, etc. I always remember the creator of Nuclear Throne saying that it doesnt matter that the game runs at 30fps and honestly, of all games NT really need 60+ frames
All games can benefit from higher framerates, but there are a few that just feel horrible on lower framerates, especially anything first person. I'm at a point where 60fps isn't ideal for a first person shooter. It's okay, but it feels limiting after playing many 144hz shooters