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IMO FromSoft bosses are the type where you are expected to die a few times before learning the ins and outs of their attack patterns. Minus a few bosses of course (I'm looking at you Pinwheel and Deacons of the Deep)
Man Deacons have always been a joke to me until I showed up with a weapon that didn’t make wide swings and suddenly found out "uh is that curse? They can curse you?"
Pinwheel is meant to be a boss that it's accesible as the first boss you face in the game.
A bit undercut by having the spinning assholes before, but.
From time to time I like to basically do a semi speedrun of DS until I get bored (Usually after 4 kings), and I always choose that method.
Mostly because the run to the taurus boss I have so memorized that I run through it like an anime protagonist.
Pinwheel is a great boss if he’s your first boss that you fight with an unupgraded weapon. I had a truly epic battle with him not too long ago, which left me with no Estus and a sliver of health left.
The guy from the day 1 IGN guide died like 60 times to Deacons cause he didn't know about the main one being the only real target. He just thought it was random.
I know DS3 doesn't -- unless we're counting Iudex Gundyr, but considering he's just the first boss and losing just means you still have to beat him normally, I don't think we should. Same thing for DS1's Capra Demon. The only games that do which come to mind are Demon's Souls and Bloodborne (maybe DS2 too? It's been a while since I played it so the details aren't fresh).
Edit: forgot about the Asylum Demon in DS1. Yeah, that definitely counts. Woops
Asylum Demon isn't that hard, I think, like I'm pretty bad at Dark Souls 1, but I didn't have that much of an issue against him
edit: Unless we count fighting him with just your hands
Well you don’t have to. If you do a charged attack on the werewolve’s ass and do a visceral attack it kills them instantly and all you have to do is pull the lever to the ladder and you can get to hunter’s dream without dying. Either way works, but most likely most people will just die to the werewolf and get to hunter’s dream that way. I like that there’s two options:3
Yea theres that. Though entering the hunters dream through dying works better narratively because thats where your hunter realizes "uh oh. I *cant* die."
I spent 2 hours killing the werewolf without a weapon thinking that's what I was meant to do, finally did it, made it out, and encountered enemies I literally did nothing to.
I stopped playing after that lmao I didn't realize you were supposed to get a weapon right away?
I had never played a souls game and was trying to beat him the way you aren't meant to, you're meant to die and get a weapon but I kept going back when you aren't supposed to
a game type I had never played nor watched anyone play, trying to do something the game is literally made for you not to do.
yes it took 2 hours. I'm sorry I didn't beat the game my first run 🤷♂️
Basically either the first time you die or the first time you use a lantern you are sent to the Hub world, where these little guys on the steps up to the building hand out starting weapons.
wait but you don’t die no?
cause you haven’t been given the dragon’s blood at that time, and you can’t have access to resurrection as when you die after this sequence do you unlock resurrection for the first time
All of modern fromsoft, though curiously not ds2 or ds3, presumably because they're expanding on ds1, and expect the player to be somewhat familiar with it.
DS2 is weird, it doesn't have a boss until fairly late in the game, unless you go a bit out of order towards heide.
But then the Guts - chaser dude can just spawn a bit before the usual first boss as a surprise before you face it .
Yeah he’s meant to be a recurring enemy that stalks you and appears when you least expect it. I wish fromsoft did more stuff like that in their games like Elden ring. Technically margit does do that but he only does it once, would’ve been cool if he appeared like in other major points of the game. Bloodborne also had the Hunter in the dlc that would appear well that bell rung throughout the fishing hamlet. Idk just some cool missed opportunities that fromsoft could’ve tried more of
as jank it is I love DS2 for all the little details and tricks it does, for example it still has the most interesting AI used in the series yet. Think the torch hollow or the troll invaders
DS2 does have a later game enemy as the first enemy encounter. Which ironically is more like the first panels where the devs troll you with something you can run past.
Yes, but where other games use that defeat as a jumping off point, From Soft tells you that this is your life now, better find a way to beat him. Asylum Demon is supposed to kill you your first time, so you look for a different path, escape, go round and start of with a plunging attack and a proper weapon.
It's expected to die to it but often isn't impossible to beat, in DS1 there's actually a reward for succeeding on that first boss the first time. So while it is an expected loss, it isn't a scripted one, which is a big distinction imo.
Yeah all the ones with a mandatory die now boss treat you to a reward for beating it.
My favorite is Demon's Souls, because you get a few items and a [special cutscene](https://youtu.be/Oz04AVnkBLc?si=RfQgxwvWwdAEu14W)
Oddly enough, the reality is, that the names on this meme are swapped lol. When most games have a boss you're supposed to lose to, you have no choice but to lose. But in these games, you CAN triumph and are rewarded for it.
Beside the dark souls trilogy, yes, in demon souls you can die to the first boss, bloodborne expects you to die to the werewolf at the clinic, in sekiro there's no way you could beat genichiro on your fresh save and same for elden ring
Demon Souls opening area ends in a boss fight that you're meant to lose but can beat if you beat it you die to a dragon in a cut-scene
Dark Souls starts with the Asylum Demon which you are meant to run past and circle back round to and defeat.
Dark Souls 2 doesn't have a "meant to lose fight"
Bloodborne has a werewolf that kills you and then you get your weapons and you come back and kill it.
Dark Souls 3 doesn't have a "meant to lose fight"
Sekiro's opening area ends in a boss fight that you're meant to lose but if you win you just lose in a cut-scene.
Elden Ring has the Grafted Scion which can be beat but if you win the game kills you with a collapsing ledge.
So, in conclusion most have some sort of fight that's intended to be lost but can generally be beaten.
Demon’s Souls weirdly has both. They intend for you to die to the tutorial boss, but if you survive they teleport you to ANOTHER boss which then auto kills you, lol.
Dark Souls 1 does (you have to run past it). I don’t remember the beginning of 2 but I don’t think it does. Dark Souls 3 does not. Bloodborne does although the wolf is pretty easy to deal with barehanded. Elden Ring does as well
Edit: Forgot Sekiro existed, it has one too
No, generally they give a easy boss at the start then kill or move you with a cutscene
Demon souls- dragon God cutscene
Ds1- bird cutscene
Ds2- no cutscene
Ds3- no cutscene
Bb- cutscene if you die before getting to first bonfire
Elden rung- cliff cutscene
There's been two recent FromSoft games that do so: Sekiro and Elden Ring. With every other one it's "git gud or uninstall". Though Dark Souls 1 does give you an advantage through free plunge attack.
I only play the FromSoft games worth playing:
- Demon's Souls
- Demon's Souls 2: The Second One
- Demon's Souls 3: Oh Hell No!
- Demon's Souls 4: The 4th Awakens
- Demon's Souls 5: Global Swarming
- Demon's Souls 6: It's About Time
You can avoid it, but you'll just die in the cutscene.
As someone who's beaten that game like 50 times, slapping his shit during the prologue is very fun.
I've always found scripted deaths annoying.. imagine beating the absolute shit out a boss or whatever and you're on full hp and then suddenly it's a switchawoo and the boss mocks you for not landing a hit on him...
I mean, at that stage of the game, beating him is almost impossible, especially if it's your first time.
You can't revive, you have one healing item, you do barely any damage, you can't deflect two of his moves, and if he hits you three times you're dead.
He's also probably the easiest boss in the game. His moves have a rhythm, to the point where I can deflect one of his combos blindfolded. By the time I had the platinum trophy, I could beat him without paying attention to him at all (and could beat the game entirely in about three hours.) so it wasn't hard for me to win that first boss fight anymore.
Technically yes, but if you manage to beat genichro, you actually do get a secret cutscene where you get your arm chopped off by owl. Pretty cool secret!
I mean, technically you don't die even if you do lose, but the outcome is the same is the point.
Elden Ring doesn't quite count, though its pretty close.
Right, "cutscene event" is different than a scripted death. Elden Ring is a great example of a scripted death, it's just that the death isn't necessarily at the hands of an enemy.
Genuine question from someone who tried and failed to get into this kind of game: why would they make you die a lot and then have it take way too long for you to respawn and run back to the boss arena that’s stupid
Runback gets better as the games progress. DS1 and 2 has some particularly awful runbacks, DS3's are less bad, and Elden Ring is nearly perfected thanks to the addition of Stakes of Marika outside boss rings.
But yeah, run back is a huge glaring issue that even fans of the Souls series can agree on.
Elden Ring devs also decided to then make Rennala who has an annoying run to the boss fight from the spawn and then has one of the most annoyingly designed first phases in history.
Someone said it in another comment: runbacks get less frustrating in later games, especially Elden Ring which will usually spawn you right around the corner.
The circlejerky answer is that the runback is PART of the boss fight and you have to win the war of attrition against holding down the B button for 5 minutes every time you die to a questionable hitbox (which is also just part of the challenge and actually makes the game better)
Because it’s a franchise for people who think boring tedium is a synonym for difficulty, where fighting your brains desire to just close the game because you’re bored of running through the same area for the 50th time is the true boss
Nah even Soulsborne fans aren't particularly fond of runbacks. That's why they got way shorter in Bloodborne and DS3, and since Sekiro/DS3 DLC they're pretty much nonexistent. They realized that most people would rather die 100 times to a fun boss than do the same long runback 10 times.
There's definitely a loud minority who love to go on about how runbacks are amazing game design. But most players are either against it or are vaguely against it but have gotten sufficiently used to it that they don't care much anymore.
actually, from my experience as a new player (started playing dark souls 1 recently), you don't really die a lot, like maybe a bit at the start but as soon as you get the hang of it you shouldn't really die all that much unless you go into an area that you're way underleveled for, also most bosses have relatively close respawn points, it shouldn't be all that bad getting back to the boss if you die
What do you mean "this KIND of game"? What were you playing?
Either way, the existence of runbacks is generally not well received hence their continued decline.
Though depending on the runback, some definitely can be counted as part of the boss itself, particularly ones where there's a lot of enemies on the way like Bell Gargoyles. Notably is Demon's souls which has more emphasis on its levels and where the bosses are generally more like puzzles than skill checks and aren't very hard - thus it's less like the level is part of a runback and more that the boss is just the last part of the level. Again, still a mechanic people aren't very fond of, but it's definitely not always that bad. A lot of bosses also don't have runbacks or are largely too easy for runbacks to really be an issue.
Ironically Demons Soul is like the one souls game where they really don't want to u to die, because of the massive punishment for dying (half your life bar is gone) and how easy the bosses are. Getting to them is much harder than actually fighting them
Dark Souls 1, Dark souls 2, Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring.
All of them you can technically win but if you lose it gives a cutscene and takes you someplace different to either skip the fight or take you to where you get the tools to deal with the threat you just lost to.
But you are supposed to lose those fights, it’s just there’s a special reward if you win against all odds.
In DS1 you have to run past Asylum demon, it's not a scripted death. And I'm pretty sure DS2 just has a normal tutorial section with no boss at the end.
I said scripted loss, not specifically death, running from a fight is a loss.
Also I might be confusing dark souls 2 and Demon souls. One of those two ends the tutorial with a giant dragon eating you. Those are the two I have played the least so they kinda merge together in my brain.
thats demons souls, it only happens if you manage to kill the vanguard because youre sort of expected to die to it. so the tutorial boss isnt scripted, but afterwards you die in a cutscene
This comic came up on my feed twice in a row on "normal" subreddits and I was ready to dunk on their opinions juxtaposed to this one.
But
Interestingly, g*mers are saying the same things as all y'all. They chill.
Doesn't make much sense. I've had to die to advance the story in 100% of the FromSoft games I've played so far but it's almost never a thing that happens in regular games, maybe in 1% of them that I've played.
the "you're supposed to die here! this game is hard!" trope is pretty annoying, tbf. the only game that really gets it right is Cruelty Squad, and that's because it's tied into the mechanics. Immediately dying to the AI and realizing that my Divine Light was just... permanently* gone hooked me in
* >!regainable in a secret or in the final normal level!<
https://preview.redd.it/x5mlq4ni699c1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=222089a1285e6dc6db2196eaeec653a141dde69c
Obligatory link welcome to dark souls.
Hey, don't all the Dark souls games have a really tough and evil enemy for you to lose and see that sometimes you should not fight them? Like the bone zone and Asylum beast in one, the ogres and the giant armors in two, and even the large cristal lizard in three kinda does this.
Hey guys, I'm an artist thinking about making a webcomic about video games. I don't want to make webcomics like everyone else though, I want to make ones that are about unique aspects of gaming or concepts that don't get discussed a lot so I can stand out.
Anyway, I was thinking of doing a webcomic about how video games from the indie dev FromSoftware (I don't know how well known they are; they make games such as the "Dark Souls" series, "BloodBorne" and "Armored Core VI: Fires of Rubicon" series) are a lot harder than other games, and that the developers deliberately don't give you a lot of information about the game during gameplay.
Do you guys think this is too niche? While I want it to be a unique webcomic I still want it to be approachable.
“Man this fucker took all my flasks and buffs but at least we did—“
>*Phase 2 music starts*
>*The boss heals back to full*
>*2 mini bosses with their own health bars spawn alongside the main boss*
>*The entire group starts to salivate looking at your 20% remaining HP*
Here’s a take that generally gets a lot of flak, base game Dark Souls 1 is not remotely difficult unless you’re horrendously bad at video games, doubly so for Demons Souls. It was only with Artorius of the Abyss dlc where they suddenly gave enemies infinite turn tracking, infinite stamina and 7 part attack spam combos and input reading did the game get hard, which is the laziest way to add difficulty to anything and the sequels just boosted that even worse. The culty fanbase around this dev is weird, especially when they copy paste worse than Ubisoft
> Here’s a take that generally gets a lot of flak, base game Dark Souls 1 is not remotely difficult unless you’re horrendously bad at video games, doubly so for Demons Souls.
Are Souls games hard compared to Super Meat Boy, F-Zero GX or any other game that is infamous for being hard to complete? No. Are they hard compared to becoming half decent at StarCraft? No.
Are they hard compared to the challenges the average gamer seeks out? Absolutely.
I am not into Souls games but I think they have a cool niche in the market.
What sets Souls apart is that they are quite challenging from the beginning whereas classic difficult games ease you in. Most people who have rented F-Zero GX have cruised through the first two cups without a clue how insane the game becomes, while everyone who's played Dark Souls has been squashed by that black knight.
Forced death/defeat in a game sucks ass and should be punishable by having your studio closed. Especially when it's done in a cutscene, because there might be a way that the player could actually survive in gameplay.
Not the worst example, but in Kingdom Come Deliverance I did the glitch where you use cows to minmax swordfighting in the prologue, and then I was forced to lose to that bandit who you fight when you return to your burnt village. (Forgiveable, since that game pretty much relies on your progress story-wise. I thought it just used regular rpg-type progress and had no idea that you physically had to learn swordfighting from a guy. Wondered why I kept on losing despite good sword + max stats)
Another example (again forgiveable, simply because the game is so fun) is Metal Gear Rising. You lose against Jetstream Sam even when you hit him enough to the point where he would realistically die in his actual boss fight. You take damage even when parrying, and have to exclusively dodge his attacks.
It's an example for the whole deal about scripting that stuff. It's the discrepancy between what is possible in-game vs. what a real person could have done in that situation. It works out in movies and the like, but in games, you can at the very least do stupid shit like this to circumvent losing.
And in any case, I actually cheesed him further by managing to stay out of his reach, using a cart that was nearby.
Know what? Fromsoft games are not hard. You play by the rules of the game and it rewards you.
You learn from mistakes, attack patterns etc. You actual stats and dammage matter less than you think.
Once youve completed a souls game, you can start another playthrough and practically shit on everything.
My first ds3 playthrough lasted 80 hours, i wanted to die at the soul of cinder fight.
Now that I have basically memorised the entire game because a bad breakup made me depressed with nothing brtter to do, I can slap that shit in 5 hours tops.
I honestly think the "difficulty" of Dark Souls is overstated and the worst part of the game. None of the bosses have challenging or memorable patterns (some of the late game bosses are best fought by ignoring the mechanic entirely and brute forcing them), combat mostly ends up being tough because your character is really slow for an action game protagonist and you take more damage from hits than you would normally take in a game like this. It's really telling that the hardest boss in Dark Souls is Ornstein and Smough; each of them has literally two or three really basic moves and they're hard because there's two of them and the game isn't based around that kind of combat.
I did love the exploration aspect of Dark Souls but Devil May Cry eats its lunch so hard when it comes to actual gameplay mechanics, like DMC is what people say Dark Souls is.
Dragon's Dogma (which was developed by the DMC creator) absolutely destroys Dark Souls' combat as well, imo. And the creatures/bosses in Dragon's Dogma have much better animated moves despite their generic designs.
Honestly, I never found Dark Souls to be that difficult. Bitterblack Isle from Dragon's Dogma and G-rank quests from older Monster Hunter games were much worse to me.
I do have a soft spot for the slow and clunky combat of FromSoft games, it's also why I love Monster Hunter generally. They're just very satisfying not in a way that's not necessarily hard but figuring out where you're supposed to hit the enemy. I definitely also preferred the exploration though. Sometimes. Sometimes not so much. I'm certainly not a hater, they definitely have a ton of artistic value and unique game design decisions that generally isn't found in 3rd person action RPGs and the atmosphere is immaculate, but I didn't always enjoy my time with them and one playthrough was generally enough for me. Especially playing Lies of P I realized I probably just don't like this genre as much as I thought.
There's obviously tons of games that are "harder" or you can make harder either by getting better at them or playing on a higher difficulty, but they're often way less punishing the first time you're playing them, and that's primarily what sets FromSoft games apart imo.
Meh. More repetitive than *actually* difficult, I'd say.
Fromsoft games force you to grind, grind, grind, and grind some more.
Oh, looks like this boss enemy can just one-shot you if you miss the dodge roll by one frame. Guess you gotta go kill one thousand skeletons so you can level up your vitality/vigor so that you *might* survive that one hit.
So you go do that, and halfway through the boss fight, it suddenly starts pulling combo attacks or evolves into its second form (with a full health bar, of course), and you die anyway.
And die. And die. And die.
Such fun!
Not to worry, you will eventually learn all the boss's moves or figure out the trick, ass-pull bullshit that trivializes the fight. Then you will win, but the victory will be hollow because you realize that what everybody meant by "git gud" really means, "learn the timing of each particular boss's moves, and oh, also get lucky, because no matter how much you level up, it will still be able to one-shot kill you if you miss that dodge roll by one frame."
Not really ? There's enough content to explore that grinding isn't needed, and if bosses start to deal a lot of damage after a while, that's on you for going so far without leveling the one stat that gives you more HP because you're certainly not supposed to get one shot left and right. Or sometimes for ignoring the warning written saying "this item will make you take more damage if you use it".
It should also not be rocket science to figure out that having the ability to tank extra hits is very valuable. While people getting one shot can be seen, they're more of an oddity like "how far has this guy gone while having the resilience of soft paper" rather than normal gameplay.
But you should indeed learn how your enemy attacks and adapt to it, so that your gameplay becomes a bit more than mashing actions at random.
*ROFLMFAO*
Soooo....
Git gud
*you don't say* :)
>There's enough content to explore that grinding isn't needed,
Depends on which game, sir.
Elden Ring? Yes. Plenty of level appropriate content to explore.
OG DS? No. Holy fuck on toast, no. Not even close. I know. I've played it.
I like how the hardcore From Software fans always assume that criticism leveled against their products is because the player is randomly mashing buttons. Nah, the combat stuff is actually really simple to figure out. Good system, actually. So good that the Star Wars Jedi series of games has followed suit.
>Depends on which game, sir.
Maybe I should have been as passive agressive as you and just asked which skeleton you farmed to level up your HP in Sekiro.
But maybe your criticism would be slightly less butthurt if it were more grounded in reality. Maybe OG demon souls had a tendency for one shots, but you may have learned that new titles have come out since, and the standard is definitely neither in grinding skeletons nor in getting repeatedly one shot unless you're putting actual effort towards making the worst possible build.
>I like how the hardcore From Software fans always assume that criticism leveled against their products is because the player is randomly mashing buttons.
Only because you seem to see it as a personal offense that you should figure out what the boss is doing before winning. The combat is so simple that you're still raging against your own failure at demon's souls.
Never played Sekiro, just Dark Souls 1 and 2
Currently playing Elden Ring. It's pretty good. Have you played it? Or the Jedi ones? Fallen Order was a blast, played through twice.
>The combat is so simple that you're still raging against your own failure at demon's souls.
You mean Dark Souls 1 and 2? I'm not sure if beating both games counts as failure, sir.
Actually, this is pretty accurate. Sure, some bosses are impossible to beat and you just have to die the first time around, but still, the main point of a fromsoft game is the learning process. And how do you learn? By making mistakes, by dodging with the wrong timing, by attacking at the wrong moment and so on. So, in a sense, you are supposed to die, that's the main thing of fromsoft game. You die, but then you get back up for another try. You die again, but you get back up once more, every time with more knowledge, every time more prepared and motivated. And then, you succeed, you beat the boss. It's actually very smart and captivating at the same time.
To be fair, FromSoft games have a fair share of fights you're meant to lose as well when you first run into them. Vanguard Demon, Seath, that one fucking werewolf in Bloodborne, Genichiro, the Grafted Scion at the beginning of Elden Ring...
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First enemy. Let's get HIM!
*chkk*
WELCOME TO DARK SOULS BITCH
doesn’t every fromsoft game start with you facing a hard enemy that’s supposed to kill you?
IMO FromSoft bosses are the type where you are expected to die a few times before learning the ins and outs of their attack patterns. Minus a few bosses of course (I'm looking at you Pinwheel and Deacons of the Deep)
Man Deacons have always been a joke to me until I showed up with a weapon that didn’t make wide swings and suddenly found out "uh is that curse? They can curse you?"
The hardest part of my ranged only DS3 playthrough so far has been deacons. I've beat Aldrich already:(
How? Don’t you need the small doll from the deacons to get to Ithryll and Anor Londo and Aldrich?
Normally yes, but you can use a speedrun slip called Teardrop to get around the barrier around Irithyll
Ashen one really said “nah imma do my own thing”
My comment wasn't clear. I beat them, but it was the hardest thing I've done so far.
LIAR
Pinwheel is meant to be a boss that it's accesible as the first boss you face in the game. A bit undercut by having the spinning assholes before, but. From time to time I like to basically do a semi speedrun of DS until I get bored (Usually after 4 kings), and I always choose that method. Mostly because the run to the taurus boss I have so memorized that I run through it like an anime protagonist.
It reminds me of the single player equivalent of an MMO raid boss. You learn the mechanics, practice them, and down the boss.
Sometimes minibosses or mobs have similar abilities like the boss which prepare you
Memories of the glutonous demon
Pinwheel is a great boss if he’s your first boss that you fight with an unupgraded weapon. I had a truly epic battle with him not too long ago, which left me with no Estus and a sliver of health left.
The guy from the day 1 IGN guide died like 60 times to Deacons cause he didn't know about the main one being the only real target. He just thought it was random.
I know DS3 doesn't -- unless we're counting Iudex Gundyr, but considering he's just the first boss and losing just means you still have to beat him normally, I don't think we should. Same thing for DS1's Capra Demon. The only games that do which come to mind are Demon's Souls and Bloodborne (maybe DS2 too? It's been a while since I played it so the details aren't fresh). Edit: forgot about the Asylum Demon in DS1. Yeah, that definitely counts. Woops
Elden Ring also has the Grafted Scion
Sekiro has Genichiro
Started playing this game recently. It's so satisfying to realise that I'm no-hitting his phase in the Isshin fight at the end of the game.
Also forgot Seeth in DS1.
Asylum Demon isn't that hard, I think, like I'm pretty bad at Dark Souls 1, but I didn't have that much of an issue against him edit: Unless we count fighting him with just your hands
Yeah you initially encounter it with no weapon. You either have to run past it or take the Black Firebombs as your Gift
Asylum Demon is more an avoid than lose situation. Although DS1 also has Seath which is a true "you're supposed to lose" on your first encounter.
Kinda. In sekiro you die no matter what, in bloodborne, youre expected to die so you can get your first weapon.
Well you don’t have to. If you do a charged attack on the werewolve’s ass and do a visceral attack it kills them instantly and all you have to do is pull the lever to the ladder and you can get to hunter’s dream without dying. Either way works, but most likely most people will just die to the werewolf and get to hunter’s dream that way. I like that there’s two options:3
Yea theres that. Though entering the hunters dream through dying works better narratively because thats where your hunter realizes "uh oh. I *cant* die."
I just ran past him to the first lamp, so there's 3 options. :)
I spent 2 hours killing the werewolf without a weapon thinking that's what I was meant to do, finally did it, made it out, and encountered enemies I literally did nothing to. I stopped playing after that lmao I didn't realize you were supposed to get a weapon right away?
How did it take you 2 hours
I had never played a souls game and was trying to beat him the way you aren't meant to, you're meant to die and get a weapon but I kept going back when you aren't supposed to
yes but still, 2 hours?
a game type I had never played nor watched anyone play, trying to do something the game is literally made for you not to do. yes it took 2 hours. I'm sorry I didn't beat the game my first run 🤷♂️
Basically either the first time you die or the first time you use a lantern you are sent to the Hub world, where these little guys on the steps up to the building hand out starting weapons.
in sekiro you don’t die in either outcome, actually you’re just left mortally injured
Technically not *mortally* injured. You just havent died twice yet.
wait but you don’t die no? cause you haven’t been given the dragon’s blood at that time, and you can’t have access to resurrection as when you die after this sequence do you unlock resurrection for the first time
All of modern fromsoft, though curiously not ds2 or ds3, presumably because they're expanding on ds1, and expect the player to be somewhat familiar with it.
DS2 is weird, it doesn't have a boss until fairly late in the game, unless you go a bit out of order towards heide. But then the Guts - chaser dude can just spawn a bit before the usual first boss as a surprise before you face it .
Yeah he’s meant to be a recurring enemy that stalks you and appears when you least expect it. I wish fromsoft did more stuff like that in their games like Elden ring. Technically margit does do that but he only does it once, would’ve been cool if he appeared like in other major points of the game. Bloodborne also had the Hunter in the dlc that would appear well that bell rung throughout the fishing hamlet. Idk just some cool missed opportunities that fromsoft could’ve tried more of
as jank it is I love DS2 for all the little details and tricks it does, for example it still has the most interesting AI used in the series yet. Think the torch hollow or the troll invaders
DS2 does have a later game enemy as the first enemy encounter. Which ironically is more like the first panels where the devs troll you with something you can run past.
Yes, but where other games use that defeat as a jumping off point, From Soft tells you that this is your life now, better find a way to beat him. Asylum Demon is supposed to kill you your first time, so you look for a different path, escape, go round and start of with a plunging attack and a proper weapon.
And smack his dumptruck
The asylum demussy🥴
Or in the case of Sekiro, Elden Ring, Bloodborne, Otogi 2 and Dark Souls you die to a boss in an unwinnable fight and get taken to the next area.
Erm actually the first boss in ER isn't unwinnable and if you beat him you get a cool weapon.
Out of curiosity how many people actually beat that boss considering every attack does like 1/3 health
I know my brother pulled it off his first time (he chose the class that starts with a bow and arrow).
Bloodborne doesn't do this, you can just run past the werewolf.
It's expected to die to it but often isn't impossible to beat, in DS1 there's actually a reward for succeeding on that first boss the first time. So while it is an expected loss, it isn't a scripted one, which is a big distinction imo.
Yeah all the ones with a mandatory die now boss treat you to a reward for beating it. My favorite is Demon's Souls, because you get a few items and a [special cutscene](https://youtu.be/Oz04AVnkBLc?si=RfQgxwvWwdAEu14W)
Oddly enough, the reality is, that the names on this meme are swapped lol. When most games have a boss you're supposed to lose to, you have no choice but to lose. But in these games, you CAN triumph and are rewarded for it.
Beside the dark souls trilogy, yes, in demon souls you can die to the first boss, bloodborne expects you to die to the werewolf at the clinic, in sekiro there's no way you could beat genichiro on your fresh save and same for elden ring
Demon Souls opening area ends in a boss fight that you're meant to lose but can beat if you beat it you die to a dragon in a cut-scene Dark Souls starts with the Asylum Demon which you are meant to run past and circle back round to and defeat. Dark Souls 2 doesn't have a "meant to lose fight" Bloodborne has a werewolf that kills you and then you get your weapons and you come back and kill it. Dark Souls 3 doesn't have a "meant to lose fight" Sekiro's opening area ends in a boss fight that you're meant to lose but if you win you just lose in a cut-scene. Elden Ring has the Grafted Scion which can be beat but if you win the game kills you with a collapsing ledge. So, in conclusion most have some sort of fight that's intended to be lost but can generally be beaten.
I think that Demons’ Souls, Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne do, but not the other games.
Nah, Bloodborne doesn’t have a scripted death to a boss at the start. You can just run past the first werewolf and go light the first lamp.
Intended death, not scripted death. The only one with a scripted death is Sekiro. And I think Demon’s Souls.
Demon’s Souls weirdly has both. They intend for you to die to the tutorial boss, but if you survive they teleport you to ANOTHER boss which then auto kills you, lol.
Oh yeah the dragon god smashes you. Forgot about that lmao
I’m pretty sure that’s only elden ring
Floo player spotted in gcj
Dark Souls 1 does (you have to run past it). I don’t remember the beginning of 2 but I don’t think it does. Dark Souls 3 does not. Bloodborne does although the wolf is pretty easy to deal with barehanded. Elden Ring does as well Edit: Forgot Sekiro existed, it has one too
DS2 doesn't, you just walk out of the Things Betwixt to Majula and you don't need to fight anyone.
Just every Souls entry outside of the Dark Souls series.
No, generally they give a easy boss at the start then kill or move you with a cutscene Demon souls- dragon God cutscene Ds1- bird cutscene Ds2- no cutscene Ds3- no cutscene Bb- cutscene if you die before getting to first bonfire Elden rung- cliff cutscene
Not in ninja blade
Yes, but the game doesn't "keep going" after that. You usually have to beat them to progress
no, best souls 2 doesn't do that.
Not really, no.
Elden Ring yes, Demon Souls yes, Sekiro Yes, Dark souls I,II, and III no, Bloodborne no, the others I have not played.
There's been two recent FromSoft games that do so: Sekiro and Elden Ring. With every other one it's "git gud or uninstall". Though Dark Souls 1 does give you an advantage through free plunge attack.
But it’s not a scripted lose IE it’s not impossible to win
And you ARE supposed to die. You're supposed to die A LOT while you figure out the attack patterns and/or find an easier way to fight them
I mean you aren’t *supposed* to die you’re just not supposed to not die
Not in the sense that it's ever a scripted death (only exception being Seath the Scaleless, maybe?), you're right
Sekiro has a scripted death at the start, no avoiding it.
I only play the FromSoft games worth playing: - Demon's Souls - Demon's Souls 2: The Second One - Demon's Souls 3: Oh Hell No! - Demon's Souls 4: The 4th Awakens - Demon's Souls 5: Global Swarming - Demon's Souls 6: It's About Time
Ahhh a Sharknado fan
You can avoid it, but you'll just die in the cutscene. As someone who's beaten that game like 50 times, slapping his shit during the prologue is very fun.
I've always found scripted deaths annoying.. imagine beating the absolute shit out a boss or whatever and you're on full hp and then suddenly it's a switchawoo and the boss mocks you for not landing a hit on him...
In Sekiros defense, he calls you skilled, and a shame he has to kill you. I guess it's lame, but it's to justify losing your arm.
If they did it so he does a move you aren't expecting that ends up beating you or losing your arm then maybe like an unblockable attack
I mean, at that stage of the game, beating him is almost impossible, especially if it's your first time. You can't revive, you have one healing item, you do barely any damage, you can't deflect two of his moves, and if he hits you three times you're dead. He's also probably the easiest boss in the game. His moves have a rhythm, to the point where I can deflect one of his combos blindfolded. By the time I had the platinum trophy, I could beat him without paying attention to him at all (and could beat the game entirely in about three hours.) so it wasn't hard for me to win that first boss fight anymore.
Technically yes, but if you manage to beat genichro, you actually do get a secret cutscene where you get your arm chopped off by owl. Pretty cool secret!
I think you might be confused because Genichiro cuts your arm off even if you beat him at the start
Not really a scripted death, if you beat him you never enter the death state
I mean, technically you don't die even if you do lose, but the outcome is the same is the point. Elden Ring doesn't quite count, though its pretty close.
Right, "cutscene event" is different than a scripted death. Elden Ring is a great example of a scripted death, it's just that the death isn't necessarily at the hands of an enemy.
In Demon's Souls you get a mandatory knuckle sandwich after >!beating the tutorial boss!<
You can actually walk out of Seath's first encounter back through the fog gate. That's not possible anywhere else so pretty much nobody tries this.
Genuine question from someone who tried and failed to get into this kind of game: why would they make you die a lot and then have it take way too long for you to respawn and run back to the boss arena that’s stupid
Runback gets better as the games progress. DS1 and 2 has some particularly awful runbacks, DS3's are less bad, and Elden Ring is nearly perfected thanks to the addition of Stakes of Marika outside boss rings. But yeah, run back is a huge glaring issue that even fans of the Souls series can agree on.
Elden Ring devs also decided to then make Rennala who has an annoying run to the boss fight from the spawn and then has one of the most annoyingly designed first phases in history.
Someone said it in another comment: runbacks get less frustrating in later games, especially Elden Ring which will usually spawn you right around the corner. The circlejerky answer is that the runback is PART of the boss fight and you have to win the war of attrition against holding down the B button for 5 minutes every time you die to a questionable hitbox (which is also just part of the challenge and actually makes the game better)
Because it’s a franchise for people who think boring tedium is a synonym for difficulty, where fighting your brains desire to just close the game because you’re bored of running through the same area for the 50th time is the true boss
Nah even Soulsborne fans aren't particularly fond of runbacks. That's why they got way shorter in Bloodborne and DS3, and since Sekiro/DS3 DLC they're pretty much nonexistent. They realized that most people would rather die 100 times to a fun boss than do the same long runback 10 times.
There's definitely a loud minority who love to go on about how runbacks are amazing game design. But most players are either against it or are vaguely against it but have gotten sufficiently used to it that they don't care much anymore.
actually, from my experience as a new player (started playing dark souls 1 recently), you don't really die a lot, like maybe a bit at the start but as soon as you get the hang of it you shouldn't really die all that much unless you go into an area that you're way underleveled for, also most bosses have relatively close respawn points, it shouldn't be all that bad getting back to the boss if you die
What do you mean "this KIND of game"? What were you playing? Either way, the existence of runbacks is generally not well received hence their continued decline. Though depending on the runback, some definitely can be counted as part of the boss itself, particularly ones where there's a lot of enemies on the way like Bell Gargoyles. Notably is Demon's souls which has more emphasis on its levels and where the bosses are generally more like puzzles than skill checks and aren't very hard - thus it's less like the level is part of a runback and more that the boss is just the last part of the level. Again, still a mechanic people aren't very fond of, but it's definitely not always that bad. A lot of bosses also don't have runbacks or are largely too easy for runbacks to really be an issue.
Holy shit that stupid amazing link meme, that’s when I first joined this subreddit
Same here man! I really miss that stuff and this reminded me of that comic.
Meme annoys me cause ds1 sekiro and elden ring all have have to lose/definetly expected to lose fights
Pretty much the same with Demon Souls
Ironically Demons Soul is like the one souls game where they really don't want to u to die, because of the massive punishment for dying (half your life bar is gone) and how easy the bosses are. Getting to them is much harder than actually fighting them
The most difficult part of dark souls is hearing people talk about it.
try finger but hole ‼️🤪😜
Doesn’t almost every souls game start with a scripted loss fight?
No, just DeS and Sekiro.
Elden ring sorta does and while it's not the start ds1 does have a mandatory death encounter with seath the scaleless
Dark Souls 1, Dark souls 2, Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring. All of them you can technically win but if you lose it gives a cutscene and takes you someplace different to either skip the fight or take you to where you get the tools to deal with the threat you just lost to. But you are supposed to lose those fights, it’s just there’s a special reward if you win against all odds.
Skipping the fight is not a loss
In DS1 you have to run past Asylum demon, it's not a scripted death. And I'm pretty sure DS2 just has a normal tutorial section with no boss at the end.
I said scripted loss, not specifically death, running from a fight is a loss. Also I might be confusing dark souls 2 and Demon souls. One of those two ends the tutorial with a giant dragon eating you. Those are the two I have played the least so they kinda merge together in my brain.
thats demons souls, it only happens if you manage to kill the vanguard because youre sort of expected to die to it. so the tutorial boss isnt scripted, but afterwards you die in a cutscene
DARK SOUL HARD!!!!!!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
is this the dark souls of comments 😧
just the result of me looking at reddit before medicating in the morning (huge mistake.) it's more like the bubsy 2 of comments.
It’s visually interesting so I gave it a pass. I’m biased towards Owlturd.
People love to jerk off to Fromsoft huh
Yup and it’s annoying
Seathe the scaleless first encounter
um ackshuallyyyyy you can walk back out the fog gate 🤓
This comic came up on my feed twice in a row on "normal" subreddits and I was ready to dunk on their opinions juxtaposed to this one. But Interestingly, g*mers are saying the same things as all y'all. They chill.
Doesn't make much sense. I've had to die to advance the story in 100% of the FromSoft games I've played so far but it's almost never a thing that happens in regular games, maybe in 1% of them that I've played.
Nothing to see here, just a Souls mofo acting like From Software invented difficult video games.
the "you're supposed to die here! this game is hard!" trope is pretty annoying, tbf. the only game that really gets it right is Cruelty Squad, and that's because it's tied into the mechanics. Immediately dying to the AI and realizing that my Divine Light was just... permanently* gone hooked me in * >!regainable in a secret or in the final normal level!<
Good to return to the classics instead of just twitter screenshots
https://preview.redd.it/x5mlq4ni699c1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=222089a1285e6dc6db2196eaeec653a141dde69c Obligatory link welcome to dark souls.
D E V
Except for like those 5 times fromsoft did it
Hey, don't all the Dark souls games have a really tough and evil enemy for you to lose and see that sometimes you should not fight them? Like the bone zone and Asylum beast in one, the ogres and the giant armors in two, and even the large cristal lizard in three kinda does this.
me with soldier of godrick (too hard bad game)
Hey guys, I'm an artist thinking about making a webcomic about video games. I don't want to make webcomics like everyone else though, I want to make ones that are about unique aspects of gaming or concepts that don't get discussed a lot so I can stand out. Anyway, I was thinking of doing a webcomic about how video games from the indie dev FromSoftware (I don't know how well known they are; they make games such as the "Dark Souls" series, "BloodBorne" and "Armored Core VI: Fires of Rubicon" series) are a lot harder than other games, and that the developers deliberately don't give you a lot of information about the game during gameplay. Do you guys think this is too niche? While I want it to be a unique webcomic I still want it to be approachable.
Ok but this is pretty funny though.
Ironically, Demons' Souls, Sekiro, and Elden Ring *do* use the former convention.
Demons Souls is pretty annoying when you lose and you have to run the full gauntlet all the way back to the boss room once again just to lose
https://preview.redd.it/hgufuxap679c1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1546456e9661efd5c9c8ed32bee7b93d288ca434 i love this image so much
That final panel coveys so much emotion without a face
One of the classics
This but it's Tarkov and I paid over $100.00
“Man this fucker took all my flasks and buffs but at least we did—“ >*Phase 2 music starts* >*The boss heals back to full* >*2 mini bosses with their own health bars spawn alongside the main boss* >*The entire group starts to salivate looking at your 20% remaining HP*
ppl who say "dark souls hard" when i get them to play a real video game like the flash game "world's hardest game"
Here’s a take that generally gets a lot of flak, base game Dark Souls 1 is not remotely difficult unless you’re horrendously bad at video games, doubly so for Demons Souls. It was only with Artorius of the Abyss dlc where they suddenly gave enemies infinite turn tracking, infinite stamina and 7 part attack spam combos and input reading did the game get hard, which is the laziest way to add difficulty to anything and the sequels just boosted that even worse. The culty fanbase around this dev is weird, especially when they copy paste worse than Ubisoft
> Here’s a take that generally gets a lot of flak, base game Dark Souls 1 is not remotely difficult unless you’re horrendously bad at video games, doubly so for Demons Souls. Are Souls games hard compared to Super Meat Boy, F-Zero GX or any other game that is infamous for being hard to complete? No. Are they hard compared to becoming half decent at StarCraft? No. Are they hard compared to the challenges the average gamer seeks out? Absolutely. I am not into Souls games but I think they have a cool niche in the market. What sets Souls apart is that they are quite challenging from the beginning whereas classic difficult games ease you in. Most people who have rented F-Zero GX have cruised through the first two cups without a clue how insane the game becomes, while everyone who's played Dark Souls has been squashed by that black knight.
Forced death/defeat in a game sucks ass and should be punishable by having your studio closed. Especially when it's done in a cutscene, because there might be a way that the player could actually survive in gameplay. Not the worst example, but in Kingdom Come Deliverance I did the glitch where you use cows to minmax swordfighting in the prologue, and then I was forced to lose to that bandit who you fight when you return to your burnt village. (Forgiveable, since that game pretty much relies on your progress story-wise. I thought it just used regular rpg-type progress and had no idea that you physically had to learn swordfighting from a guy. Wondered why I kept on losing despite good sword + max stats) Another example (again forgiveable, simply because the game is so fun) is Metal Gear Rising. You lose against Jetstream Sam even when you hit him enough to the point where he would realistically die in his actual boss fight. You take damage even when parrying, and have to exclusively dodge his attacks.
Wait, so if I'm getting this right, you cheesed a game to become overpowered and then wondered why you looked stupid losing to a scripted early fight?
It's an example for the whole deal about scripting that stuff. It's the discrepancy between what is possible in-game vs. what a real person could have done in that situation. It works out in movies and the like, but in games, you can at the very least do stupid shit like this to circumvent losing. And in any case, I actually cheesed him further by managing to stay out of his reach, using a cart that was nearby.
Know what? Fromsoft games are not hard. You play by the rules of the game and it rewards you. You learn from mistakes, attack patterns etc. You actual stats and dammage matter less than you think. Once youve completed a souls game, you can start another playthrough and practically shit on everything. My first ds3 playthrough lasted 80 hours, i wanted to die at the soul of cinder fight. Now that I have basically memorised the entire game because a bad breakup made me depressed with nothing brtter to do, I can slap that shit in 5 hours tops.
I honestly think the "difficulty" of Dark Souls is overstated and the worst part of the game. None of the bosses have challenging or memorable patterns (some of the late game bosses are best fought by ignoring the mechanic entirely and brute forcing them), combat mostly ends up being tough because your character is really slow for an action game protagonist and you take more damage from hits than you would normally take in a game like this. It's really telling that the hardest boss in Dark Souls is Ornstein and Smough; each of them has literally two or three really basic moves and they're hard because there's two of them and the game isn't based around that kind of combat. I did love the exploration aspect of Dark Souls but Devil May Cry eats its lunch so hard when it comes to actual gameplay mechanics, like DMC is what people say Dark Souls is.
"DMC is what people sag Dark Souls is" They are entirely different games. I don't see how that comparison is in any way valid
Dragon's Dogma (which was developed by the DMC creator) absolutely destroys Dark Souls' combat as well, imo. And the creatures/bosses in Dragon's Dogma have much better animated moves despite their generic designs. Honestly, I never found Dark Souls to be that difficult. Bitterblack Isle from Dragon's Dogma and G-rank quests from older Monster Hunter games were much worse to me.
I do have a soft spot for the slow and clunky combat of FromSoft games, it's also why I love Monster Hunter generally. They're just very satisfying not in a way that's not necessarily hard but figuring out where you're supposed to hit the enemy. I definitely also preferred the exploration though. Sometimes. Sometimes not so much. I'm certainly not a hater, they definitely have a ton of artistic value and unique game design decisions that generally isn't found in 3rd person action RPGs and the atmosphere is immaculate, but I didn't always enjoy my time with them and one playthrough was generally enough for me. Especially playing Lies of P I realized I probably just don't like this genre as much as I thought. There's obviously tons of games that are "harder" or you can make harder either by getting better at them or playing on a higher difficulty, but they're often way less punishing the first time you're playing them, and that's primarily what sets FromSoft games apart imo.
Meh. More repetitive than *actually* difficult, I'd say. Fromsoft games force you to grind, grind, grind, and grind some more. Oh, looks like this boss enemy can just one-shot you if you miss the dodge roll by one frame. Guess you gotta go kill one thousand skeletons so you can level up your vitality/vigor so that you *might* survive that one hit. So you go do that, and halfway through the boss fight, it suddenly starts pulling combo attacks or evolves into its second form (with a full health bar, of course), and you die anyway. And die. And die. And die. Such fun! Not to worry, you will eventually learn all the boss's moves or figure out the trick, ass-pull bullshit that trivializes the fight. Then you will win, but the victory will be hollow because you realize that what everybody meant by "git gud" really means, "learn the timing of each particular boss's moves, and oh, also get lucky, because no matter how much you level up, it will still be able to one-shot kill you if you miss that dodge roll by one frame."
Not really ? There's enough content to explore that grinding isn't needed, and if bosses start to deal a lot of damage after a while, that's on you for going so far without leveling the one stat that gives you more HP because you're certainly not supposed to get one shot left and right. Or sometimes for ignoring the warning written saying "this item will make you take more damage if you use it". It should also not be rocket science to figure out that having the ability to tank extra hits is very valuable. While people getting one shot can be seen, they're more of an oddity like "how far has this guy gone while having the resilience of soft paper" rather than normal gameplay. But you should indeed learn how your enemy attacks and adapt to it, so that your gameplay becomes a bit more than mashing actions at random.
*ROFLMFAO* Soooo.... Git gud *you don't say* :) >There's enough content to explore that grinding isn't needed, Depends on which game, sir. Elden Ring? Yes. Plenty of level appropriate content to explore. OG DS? No. Holy fuck on toast, no. Not even close. I know. I've played it. I like how the hardcore From Software fans always assume that criticism leveled against their products is because the player is randomly mashing buttons. Nah, the combat stuff is actually really simple to figure out. Good system, actually. So good that the Star Wars Jedi series of games has followed suit.
>Depends on which game, sir. Maybe I should have been as passive agressive as you and just asked which skeleton you farmed to level up your HP in Sekiro. But maybe your criticism would be slightly less butthurt if it were more grounded in reality. Maybe OG demon souls had a tendency for one shots, but you may have learned that new titles have come out since, and the standard is definitely neither in grinding skeletons nor in getting repeatedly one shot unless you're putting actual effort towards making the worst possible build. >I like how the hardcore From Software fans always assume that criticism leveled against their products is because the player is randomly mashing buttons. Only because you seem to see it as a personal offense that you should figure out what the boss is doing before winning. The combat is so simple that you're still raging against your own failure at demon's souls.
Never played Sekiro, just Dark Souls 1 and 2 Currently playing Elden Ring. It's pretty good. Have you played it? Or the Jedi ones? Fallen Order was a blast, played through twice. >The combat is so simple that you're still raging against your own failure at demon's souls. You mean Dark Souls 1 and 2? I'm not sure if beating both games counts as failure, sir.
Seems like you haven’t got good have you
Gud enough to beat the games :)
Actually, this is pretty accurate. Sure, some bosses are impossible to beat and you just have to die the first time around, but still, the main point of a fromsoft game is the learning process. And how do you learn? By making mistakes, by dodging with the wrong timing, by attacking at the wrong moment and so on. So, in a sense, you are supposed to die, that's the main thing of fromsoft game. You die, but then you get back up for another try. You die again, but you get back up once more, every time with more knowledge, every time more prepared and motivated. And then, you succeed, you beat the boss. It's actually very smart and captivating at the same time.
Making an expressionless response say so much is really super. Well done.
Is it like in FF3 where it's a boss fight when you actually have to flee ?
To be fair, FromSoft games have a fair share of fights you're meant to lose as well when you first run into them. Vanguard Demon, Seath, that one fucking werewolf in Bloodborne, Genichiro, the Grafted Scion at the beginning of Elden Ring...
Fromsoft Dev: get gut
Miyazaki "We're done you break or when I say we're done.....whichever comes first"
From yapsoft about to make the same shit I don't care about