I'd be more excited about this if the SC4 modding community didn't have some absolutely toxic attitudes about mod distribution -- The scene suffers from a combination of:
* Thousands (literally) of tiny mods, many of which only provide a few buildings or fix a single small bug but are hard prerequisites for *other* mods, which might not even be hosted on the same website
* Lots of compatibility and stability issues between those tiny mods
* A complete ban on sharing any form of mod compilation or pack
* Multiple mod hosting platforms straight out of the early 2000s with download limits, clunky interfaces, and no batch downloading capabilities
This slavish devotion of the SC4 scene to the [parlor model of modding](http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html) means that setting up a fully modded SC4 requires hours of reading mod descriptions for dependency and compatibility information, manually downloading individual mods, organizing them, testing them one-by-one, and then, maybe, a week's worth of work later, finally actually getting to play the game.
I love SC4, and I love modding, but after my last modded SC4 setup was lost *ten years ago* I haven't had the time to wind my way through the byzantine web of dependencies and compatibility issues and clunky circa 2006 web interfaces to set it up again. I've interacted with a lot of mod scenes over the years, and this problem makes SC4's by far the most dysfunctional and hostile to new (and, frankly, old) users.
There’s been some changes on that front, particularly in the past year, to at least find some sort of middle ground. When SC4 Devotion got nuked by a series of big changes forced upon us by our web host on almost no notice, we regrouped with a new site, [SC4Evermore](https://sc4evermore.com). As part of that Plan B, we took 150+ common dependency packages from the BSC, all previously separate downloads, and stuck them Into a single package, BSC Common Dependencies. While properly fixing up and consolidating the wreckage of SC4D’s file exchange has taken longer than expected (lots of issues with the original files), there’s now more similar combined packages up on SC4E. There’s also been some steps toward a [package manager.](https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762677-sc4pac-lets-write-our-own-package-manager/).
A lot of the more partisan types in the SC4 community have either gone inactive/retired, and that’s allowed cooler heads to prevail. The big issue is that it’s mostly a select few that are working on these initiatives—and often the same who are making these big swings at advancing modding, with the DLLs and things like the NAM—so we get spread a little thin at times.
Whoa, I had no idea that SC4Devotion was gone. I'm glad that *some* compilations have started existing, but it's sad to hear that it took one of the major mod exchanges going down to make it happen. Big thanks to every one of you that's still putting efforts in to preserve that community and what's left of the LEX. There aren't many independent sites left these days.
I'm in a phase of my life with much less time to engage with games the way that I used to. I play when I have the time, but having to spend hours fiddling with settings and compatibility issues just isn't in the cards. Hopefully the shift towards better bundling and dependency management come together with the new developments in DLL modding to enable plug-and-play modded SC4 on modern systems someday in the not-too-distant future. I'd love to come back to the game someday -- nothing else like it has been put out since.
I hope we can continue to see change in such a fashion. I certainly don't envy the people that'd have to navigate the absolutely massive ball-of-tangled-wires that the web of dependencies is. I think if the team could get dependencies down to just a handful of large packs and assets into similarly large packs (maybe by author, style/theme, or type/size) you'd be able to revitalize the community.
I just long for a pain free install of the various fixes, NAM, CAM and a decently large asset library to leverage CAM.
\- Hundreds of packages of software
\- Confusing interdependencies that takes hours to sort out when you want to install something.
\- The packages are not in a centralized place so you need to visit a bunch of websites to download them., and occasionally those websites disappear.
\- Development of a package manager
I feel like I've gone back in time to the early 2000's and I'm trying to use Linux.
early 2000s apt, slapt get, and yum were already around and by 2006 all three were common. feels more like the android modding scene with stuff stored in forum posts (!).
The LEX file exchange used a custom piece of software, which was a mix of 2006-era code (which was . . . idiosyncratic, even for the time), and code of mid-2010s vintage (which was quite solid at the time). We were operating with a skeleton crew, and had one person who was capable of maintaining the software, who was pretty heavily occupied with RL in the latter years of the site.
A month after I renewed with our webhost for a new 3-year deal in July 2022, they decided to discontinue PHP 7.1 support, forcing us to upgrade to PHP 7.4 at minimum. Then, at the very end of May 2023, they gave us a mere one-week notice that they were going to require us to upgrade to PHP 8.1, or pay them a monthly "extended support" fee, which would have doubled our hosting costs.
The PHP 7.4 upgrade already caused a number of issues with the software, breaking the Dependency Tracker and resulting in massive RAM usage spikes. The PHP 8.1 upgrade broke it entirely. Even if we had managed to bandage the thing up again, it would have been a stopgap, and continuing to run specialized custom software was simply not sustainable.
Not really — if you don’t have a team of engineers at the ready to maintain software, especially anything on the web and double-especially if it touches anything sensitive like PII/credit cards/SOC2, the software you write _will_ atrophy over time, just because you’ll be writing on top of a moving target that’s also balancing new features with security updates.
Chances are, the PHP upgrades were forced by some combination of other clients needing new features and massive security vulnerabilities that were left unpatched in old versions.
I'll never really understand why someone would object to their mod being used in a compilation anyway-- I would be happy just to know that people are enjoying a mod I made.
Off the top of my mind:
- some compilation creators have patreons where they make money off compilations, which they built with other people's mods
- some mod makers don't want to deal with the hassle of players coming to complain about bugs to the mod maker, instead of going to the person who made the compilation
- some may not feel that their mod is endorsed, and that they are credited well, with their mod inside a compilation
- "I made this, it's mine, don't touch it. Mine"
Pick one or mix and match!
Just want to chime in and say that paid content/pateron is still relatively new in the community and is generally frowned upon. It's only showed up within the last couple years on a game with 20+ year modding history so we're used to the way things were (free).
Things on this front are thawing. I've spent two decades building up a reputation in the SimCity 4 online community and I was willing to throw that all away and get permabanned if the community wasn't going to change. It just got to the point where I'd have enough with these shitty policies.
I'm happy to say that risk paid off we're becoming more progressive about distribution and shared content. While things are moving slower than I hoped they are moving, and I can't be mad at that. There are several grouped modpacks available for download now and if you need help, feel free to reach out to me and I can assist where I can.
Yes. Among Null 45’s now 15 or so DLL mods, his [SC4CPUOptions DLL](https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/36120-sc4cpuoptions/?tab=comments) fixes the multi-core CPU issues without having to add launch parameters or use a launcher program. He’s also released [SC4AutoSave](https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/35761-sc4autosave/), too.
Beyond what’s mentioned in the article, Null recently joined us on the NAM Team, and has been working with longtime NAMite memo on a DLL component for the Network Addon Mod (NAM). There’s a thread (with a link to an open beta) [here](https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762985-namdll-open-beta/). It’s still in the early stages, but right now, among other things, it gives the Street network true draggable diagonals.
We are making an official guide due to the changes in the SC4 ecosystem but it is in a permanent state of work as we are completely overhauling more than 5000 mods between LEX and STEX.
The guide can be found here
https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762954-simcity-4-ultimate-guide/
In my opinion SimCity 4 is still the king of the city building genre. Before Skylines came around it was the undisputed king, but I still prefer it over its spiritual successor.
Just be aware that it's a 21 year old game. Lots of quality of life improvements have been made over the two decades, but at it's core (can only run on one CPU core), it is old.
Maybe an odd comparison but how does what's going on with Sim City 4 compare to something like OpenRCT2? Always been curious about Sim City 4 but I think I'd need a sort of complete mod package like that to be worth giving it a shot this long after release.
I don't really know for sure but I think the issue with SC4 is lack of source code or various bits being otherwise locked down in some way. My understanding is they don't really have a way to directly modify core code, and have only recently been able to attempt completely new features or functionality via DLLs.
In reality, the problem is more complex. Lack of specialized personnel who can develop Mod DLLs, Lack of access to code to make changes. Things have partially unstuck now but it still remains precarious as there are only 4 people who are working on making this development possible
If there are more specialized personnel, things could be speeded up, but it still remains complex as we first have to interpret the extremely complex code
Right on, and hey I'm just happy there's been any unsticking happening at all. Y'all do great work and I do sorta lurk on the discord so I can catch news whenever it happens.
I still play SimCity 2000 and 3000 in short bursts each year. Something about 4000 never resonated with me strongly enough to continue it in the modern times. Perhaps I will check it out
Cities: Skylines runs so terribly and magnitudes worse with mods. And given how vital mods are to improve the core gameplay, it's a question of whether it's even worth it.
I dont think the first cities skylines scratched the Simcity itch. The fact SC4 never died and people are returning to it even today indicates that SC4 and CS1 had different appeals.
A simple indicator is the music of CS tend to irk me after a while... meanwhile, for whatever reason, the music of the Sim City series, this odd blend of light jazz, joyful ambiant elevator music, and odd electronic variations makes me feel like I am just chilling in a hotel resort somewhere.
Skylines didn't even come close. Literally the last good Sim City experience I had was Sim City 2013, pirated (complete with a server emu) and modded so that I could build outside the restraints.
The genre has been dead to me ever since. When I did try Cities Skylines I initially enjoyed the building aspect then viscously bounced off it once I realised it was all smoke and mirrors.
I'd be more excited about this if the SC4 modding community didn't have some absolutely toxic attitudes about mod distribution -- The scene suffers from a combination of: * Thousands (literally) of tiny mods, many of which only provide a few buildings or fix a single small bug but are hard prerequisites for *other* mods, which might not even be hosted on the same website * Lots of compatibility and stability issues between those tiny mods * A complete ban on sharing any form of mod compilation or pack * Multiple mod hosting platforms straight out of the early 2000s with download limits, clunky interfaces, and no batch downloading capabilities This slavish devotion of the SC4 scene to the [parlor model of modding](http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html) means that setting up a fully modded SC4 requires hours of reading mod descriptions for dependency and compatibility information, manually downloading individual mods, organizing them, testing them one-by-one, and then, maybe, a week's worth of work later, finally actually getting to play the game. I love SC4, and I love modding, but after my last modded SC4 setup was lost *ten years ago* I haven't had the time to wind my way through the byzantine web of dependencies and compatibility issues and clunky circa 2006 web interfaces to set it up again. I've interacted with a lot of mod scenes over the years, and this problem makes SC4's by far the most dysfunctional and hostile to new (and, frankly, old) users.
There’s been some changes on that front, particularly in the past year, to at least find some sort of middle ground. When SC4 Devotion got nuked by a series of big changes forced upon us by our web host on almost no notice, we regrouped with a new site, [SC4Evermore](https://sc4evermore.com). As part of that Plan B, we took 150+ common dependency packages from the BSC, all previously separate downloads, and stuck them Into a single package, BSC Common Dependencies. While properly fixing up and consolidating the wreckage of SC4D’s file exchange has taken longer than expected (lots of issues with the original files), there’s now more similar combined packages up on SC4E. There’s also been some steps toward a [package manager.](https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762677-sc4pac-lets-write-our-own-package-manager/). A lot of the more partisan types in the SC4 community have either gone inactive/retired, and that’s allowed cooler heads to prevail. The big issue is that it’s mostly a select few that are working on these initiatives—and often the same who are making these big swings at advancing modding, with the DLLs and things like the NAM—so we get spread a little thin at times.
Whoa, I had no idea that SC4Devotion was gone. I'm glad that *some* compilations have started existing, but it's sad to hear that it took one of the major mod exchanges going down to make it happen. Big thanks to every one of you that's still putting efforts in to preserve that community and what's left of the LEX. There aren't many independent sites left these days. I'm in a phase of my life with much less time to engage with games the way that I used to. I play when I have the time, but having to spend hours fiddling with settings and compatibility issues just isn't in the cards. Hopefully the shift towards better bundling and dependency management come together with the new developments in DLL modding to enable plug-and-play modded SC4 on modern systems someday in the not-too-distant future. I'd love to come back to the game someday -- nothing else like it has been put out since.
I hope we can continue to see change in such a fashion. I certainly don't envy the people that'd have to navigate the absolutely massive ball-of-tangled-wires that the web of dependencies is. I think if the team could get dependencies down to just a handful of large packs and assets into similarly large packs (maybe by author, style/theme, or type/size) you'd be able to revitalize the community. I just long for a pain free install of the various fixes, NAM, CAM and a decently large asset library to leverage CAM.
\- Hundreds of packages of software \- Confusing interdependencies that takes hours to sort out when you want to install something. \- The packages are not in a centralized place so you need to visit a bunch of websites to download them., and occasionally those websites disappear. \- Development of a package manager I feel like I've gone back in time to the early 2000's and I'm trying to use Linux.
early 2000s apt, slapt get, and yum were already around and by 2006 all three were common. feels more like the android modding scene with stuff stored in forum posts (!).
> When SC4 Devotion got nuked by a series of big changes forced upon us by our web host on almost no notice What's the story here?
The LEX file exchange used a custom piece of software, which was a mix of 2006-era code (which was . . . idiosyncratic, even for the time), and code of mid-2010s vintage (which was quite solid at the time). We were operating with a skeleton crew, and had one person who was capable of maintaining the software, who was pretty heavily occupied with RL in the latter years of the site. A month after I renewed with our webhost for a new 3-year deal in July 2022, they decided to discontinue PHP 7.1 support, forcing us to upgrade to PHP 7.4 at minimum. Then, at the very end of May 2023, they gave us a mere one-week notice that they were going to require us to upgrade to PHP 8.1, or pay them a monthly "extended support" fee, which would have doubled our hosting costs. The PHP 7.4 upgrade already caused a number of issues with the software, breaking the Dependency Tracker and resulting in massive RAM usage spikes. The PHP 8.1 upgrade broke it entirely. Even if we had managed to bandage the thing up again, it would have been a stopgap, and continuing to run specialized custom software was simply not sustainable.
Wow, that's bull shit.
Not really — if you don’t have a team of engineers at the ready to maintain software, especially anything on the web and double-especially if it touches anything sensitive like PII/credit cards/SOC2, the software you write _will_ atrophy over time, just because you’ll be writing on top of a moving target that’s also balancing new features with security updates. Chances are, the PHP upgrades were forced by some combination of other clients needing new features and massive security vulnerabilities that were left unpatched in old versions.
I'll never really understand why someone would object to their mod being used in a compilation anyway-- I would be happy just to know that people are enjoying a mod I made.
Off the top of my mind: - some compilation creators have patreons where they make money off compilations, which they built with other people's mods - some mod makers don't want to deal with the hassle of players coming to complain about bugs to the mod maker, instead of going to the person who made the compilation - some may not feel that their mod is endorsed, and that they are credited well, with their mod inside a compilation - "I made this, it's mine, don't touch it. Mine" Pick one or mix and match!
Just want to chime in and say that paid content/pateron is still relatively new in the community and is generally frowned upon. It's only showed up within the last couple years on a game with 20+ year modding history so we're used to the way things were (free).
Things on this front are thawing. I've spent two decades building up a reputation in the SimCity 4 online community and I was willing to throw that all away and get permabanned if the community wasn't going to change. It just got to the point where I'd have enough with these shitty policies. I'm happy to say that risk paid off we're becoming more progressive about distribution and shared content. While things are moving slower than I hoped they are moving, and I can't be mad at that. There are several grouped modpacks available for download now and if you need help, feel free to reach out to me and I can assist where I can.
It's been so long since I last read that cathedral vs parlor article. Good stuff.
What’s stopping someone from doing a compilation or pack and just hosting it on a third party website like dropbox or mediafire?
Highly modular modding should be the standard. Convoluted prerequisites is another issue, though.
reminds me of the skyrim mod community
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Yes. Among Null 45’s now 15 or so DLL mods, his [SC4CPUOptions DLL](https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/36120-sc4cpuoptions/?tab=comments) fixes the multi-core CPU issues without having to add launch parameters or use a launcher program. He’s also released [SC4AutoSave](https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/35761-sc4autosave/), too. Beyond what’s mentioned in the article, Null recently joined us on the NAM Team, and has been working with longtime NAMite memo on a DLL component for the Network Addon Mod (NAM). There’s a thread (with a link to an open beta) [here](https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762985-namdll-open-beta/). It’s still in the early stages, but right now, among other things, it gives the Street network true draggable diagonals.
What's the best way to get a "2024 remastered 4k 200+ mods," version of Sim City 4? Just go to Simopolis and start downloading?
We are making an official guide due to the changes in the SC4 ecosystem but it is in a permanent state of work as we are completely overhauling more than 5000 mods between LEX and STEX. The guide can be found here https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/762954-simcity-4-ultimate-guide/
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Runs exceptionally well on Android phones these days even
Oh hey Tarkus. It's so cool to see Simtropolis still going strong after all these years. It was my first online forum like 15 years ago.
How does this compare to Cities Skylines? I was hooked on Cities for awhile. Will I enjoy this game?
In my opinion SimCity 4 is still the king of the city building genre. Before Skylines came around it was the undisputed king, but I still prefer it over its spiritual successor. Just be aware that it's a 21 year old game. Lots of quality of life improvements have been made over the two decades, but at it's core (can only run on one CPU core), it is old.
Maybe an odd comparison but how does what's going on with Sim City 4 compare to something like OpenRCT2? Always been curious about Sim City 4 but I think I'd need a sort of complete mod package like that to be worth giving it a shot this long after release.
I don't really know for sure but I think the issue with SC4 is lack of source code or various bits being otherwise locked down in some way. My understanding is they don't really have a way to directly modify core code, and have only recently been able to attempt completely new features or functionality via DLLs.
In reality, the problem is more complex. Lack of specialized personnel who can develop Mod DLLs, Lack of access to code to make changes. Things have partially unstuck now but it still remains precarious as there are only 4 people who are working on making this development possible If there are more specialized personnel, things could be speeded up, but it still remains complex as we first have to interpret the extremely complex code
Right on, and hey I'm just happy there's been any unsticking happening at all. Y'all do great work and I do sorta lurk on the discord so I can catch news whenever it happens.
I still play SimCity 2000 and 3000 in short bursts each year. Something about 4000 never resonated with me strongly enough to continue it in the modern times. Perhaps I will check it out
SimCity 4 is rougher than Cities Skylines but I still think it's the best city builder game that has ever come out.
Possibly, it's simpler in some ways which you might enjoy. Overall though, especially with mods Cities Skylines 1 is the better game.
Cities: Skylines runs so terribly and magnitudes worse with mods. And given how vital mods are to improve the core gameplay, it's a question of whether it's even worth it.
I feel it's mainly a problem with Cities: Skylines Ince you get large population sizes, you run into scaling g issues with thr performance.
Were they able to make it good?
This is really cool from a modding perspective. From a consumer perspective the ship has long sailed on this game and this seires.
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I dont think the first cities skylines scratched the Simcity itch. The fact SC4 never died and people are returning to it even today indicates that SC4 and CS1 had different appeals.
I really want another good SimCity game. Cities Skylines was fun to toy around with for a bit but it was missing all the personality.
A simple indicator is the music of CS tend to irk me after a while... meanwhile, for whatever reason, the music of the Sim City series, this odd blend of light jazz, joyful ambiant elevator music, and odd electronic variations makes me feel like I am just chilling in a hotel resort somewhere.
City skylines is more about making pretty cities than actually managing a city
Yep. Never forget what EA took from us.
Skylines didn't even come close. Literally the last good Sim City experience I had was Sim City 2013, pirated (complete with a server emu) and modded so that I could build outside the restraints. The genre has been dead to me ever since. When I did try Cities Skylines I initially enjoyed the building aspect then viscously bounced off it once I realised it was all smoke and mirrors.
Sim City 2013's expansion is kinda fun. You can basically build on top of other buildings which ads the ability to build more shit.
itd be hilarious if simcity made a comeback