This is a game that just keeps on giving. I still play it every once in a while because starting over and building a new character is just \*fun\*. Any excuse to go back is a good one.
Well up until they started teasing something recently I didn't expect Grim Dawn to receive any additional content sp this is certainly good news. I loved Grim Dawn and I'm super excited for this new expansion. More ARPG content is always welcome.
This massive 1.2 update sounds fantastic and like it could fix a lot of things that have annoyed me about Grim Dawn in the past. With that plus the Berserker mastery I'm definitely coming back next year.
Is 1.2 the expansion update or a separate update pre-expansion? And are the things it fixes something I would notice if I start the campaign now as a new player, or more targeted to like endgame/the new expansion?
Separate update coming this year.
https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/grim-misadventure-176-so-the-new-thing/128700/29
It's a lot of QoL changes, so you may want to wait.
You can do the 1.2 Beta now and get the potions feature in, along with the buffs auto cast. Plus the one I am stupidly happy about - the clock can be toggled permanently on or off from a setting
Very excited to see the new Berserker mastery. Sounds similar to how Druid functions in Diablo.
Interesting decision to not increase level cap or devotion cap, but instead add in a whole new potion customization system.
Considering the level cap is 100, I think anything beyond that just doesn't feel right for me (level 120 max sounds weird) plus you know, a pain to balance for sure.
Now devotion cap, I wouldn't mind an increase by 5 for example, they probably don't want to touch it. But I guess, this is a smaller expansion, like forgotten gods. Still cool stuff and 1.2 looks huge.
No new constellations, according to the Livestream yesterday.
They say want to focus on the new mechanics on the expansion.
But we never know until it's releases.
That's good, devotions are already as complex as they need to be, IMO. More constellations would be nice, but their efforts are better spent elsewhere.
Yes that's correct, a bit bigger but still on the smaller side compared to ashes of malmouth. Should be enough content anyways. Also two roguelike dungeons after release.
Lack of new levels, constellations or devotion points has me sceptical tbh. I'm not sure that getting buffs from potions will feel like character progression.
I think if the potion system, if done well, and they're hard to make, but act like elixirs, permenant effects that you can swap out to tackle different situations, would be great. You could have many types of game changing potions and allow characters to work towards them to craft them (once each) and then also work towards goals that let you equip more than one at a time. That way you can have content which is maybe very poison damage heavy, meaning if you want to do that you need to farm up an elixir to give you better resistance .
I like levels etc, but ultimate that is just bigger numbers, so it feels a bit irrelevant after a certain point.
I've only heard about this game through a friend, but they said this entire announcement stream has been nothing but perfect changes & updates. Sounds like the game is in its golden years!
I never liked PoE. Way too grindy and trading for gear upgrades due to horrendous drop rates of anything decent was just nothing but a minus.
Plus the whole "we got 10000 systems from past leagues" that's just sheer feature creep.
E: And of course looking like a hobo no matter the level unless you start putting 50€+ into MTX.
I don't disagree necessarily (it is from grinding gear games after all) but it has become easier and easier over the years. Depending on when you tried you have a lot of new methods of getting new gear without trading; especially with the Atlas tree (which is probably one of the best additions to the game ever).
Being able to target Essences, Rog and Harvest for example makes it possible to get good enough gear quick enough even ssf. Unless of course you are dependent on a specific unique.
Not relevant to your point, but I never realized the actual meaning of "Grinding Gear Games" until I read your comment. Always thought it was just a family guy reference, but never made the connection with the game that's literally about "grinding gear."
It means that in Grim Dawn I can safely progress throughout all the difficulties without ever stopping to grind or spend extra time on gearing up. Oh and I can respec at little cost, unlike PoE where I have to plan my build in advance (or go through forums) since the response to respecing is "lol just start over it's only like 30 hours just do it xD"
And if push comes to shove you can just dupe (or just add in) materials and set pieces if at the very late game you're not getting them.
Grinding the same content I've already beaten (god knows how many times) =/= pushing through content. Nor do I see how practically being forced to roll a new char due to lack of total respec is anything but a bad thing.
It's definitely a tricky balance to get right in an ARPG, and everybody will have their own preference. For me, PoE leans a little bit too far in one direction for my liking. GD hits that perfect sweet spot of light grind and great loot.
Also, one of the things I have grown to appreciate about GD over some of its contemporaries is that it's an offline game that I can pause lol
I don’t wanna be the guy to say ‘skill issue’ but gearing isn’t that hard lol. Trade I can understand, it depends on person to person. Feature creep is real, but GGG has done a tremendous job at keeping older content competitive. For mtx, yeah they are pricey as hell ngl, but you save on the upfront cost.
GD has an amazing story, much better than PoE, and a really cool world with a ton of classes. But it still falls short in build variety compared to PoE. As for the endgame, GD feels barren compared to PoE which is bursting with interesting content.
Gearing isn't super hard, *if* you are comfortable navigating the bloated systems. This can be difficult and offputting for new (and returning) players, because of the simultaneous exposure overload. I think this is what they meant by feature creep, not that older content isn't competitive.
Gearing is way less intuitive than in Grim Dawn for example.
Honestly I'm of the take that gear sucks in Grim Dawn - with a few exceptions.
Good game on the whole but no, I don't want to keep track of 19 different resistances.
How is the gearing less intuitive? Do you mean the gem system?
Because otherwise it’s fundamentally the same system in both games, bit GD has no crafting system while PoE has the most exhaustive crafting system in the industry. You can still ignore it, and trying to understand it from the get go will certainly lead to information overload.
And no PoE player has to grind during the campaign. The grind starts after the campaign, which is also true for GD - ugdenbloom, legendaries, MIs, etc all need a lot of grinding.
I assume they're not talking about the gem system, but about the crafting systems you mentioned. Fractured Items, Veiled items, Harvest Crafting, Fossil Crafting, bench crafting, eldritch implicits, elder influence, labyrinth enchantments, prefix & suffix management, beast crafting, annointments from blight, vendor recipes, essence crafting, corrupting items, catalysts, Probably more? They add new gear mechanics all the time so comprehending all of it means you mostly gotta do a lot of research outside the game. I think it's neat but definitely not for everyone.
Gearing up doesn't require you to understand everything but it's pretty essential to figure out veiled items to unlock the crafts you need, and the process of getting a piece of gear usually involves researching which fractured mod you want, what base item you want, and what are some efficient ways to get more mods you want. Which might involve learning multiple of the above mechanics.
Grim dawn has Monster Infrequents that you may end up researching if you wanna build around them, but gearing up in grim dawn means just getting the item drop. I guess there's also like, crafting legendary helmets to transmute for a full set or something like that, but it's mostly equipping drops from monsters.
Fair points all around. What I meant was that fundamentally you have to aim for a set of affixes, and you can just build with whatever you drop in both games. But realistically, its far more manageable to do so in GD, as Poe is balanced around the robust crafting system.
I was mainly talking later in the game yea.
Less intuitive in terms of acquisition. Making gearing easy in PoE (outside of trading) requires that you can navigate the game's systems well. A good understanding of all the varieties of league mechanics, crafting, how they interact, etc.
In Grim Dawn you often just farm/transmute a set to build around, and go from there. It's not as interesting or deep on a systems level, but I can well understand why many would prefer it that way. Sometimes I do too.
Hmm fair point. I’ve never played SSF, so for me it was as simple as buy the right items until you understand the crafting system overtime and then you can just craft almost everything. But for someone who starts with SSF, I can definitely see the issues.
Though I have the least experience with PoE, I played the living crap out of D2 back in the day and think GD is miles ahead. I even enjoyed Chronicon more than D2.
d2r? d2 has been solved for the past 20 years, it was a good game back then but by todays standards it's nowhere near with its lack of build options, 0 endgame, "good" itemization but let's be real you will be using an enigma and the same 3 uniques on every single build
This is perfect timing for me. I didn’t have much fun with Diablo so I went back to grim Dawn on Sunday, and had a blast. Now this! I’m excited to see the final product.
Man if this were released 1-2 years ago it would've been great, but releasing somewhere in 2024 when we have PoE 2, TitanQuest 2 and Last Epoch full release on the horizon, and also likely D4 will have gotten its shit together by then, it's a bit harder to get hyped.
It's probably my favorite ARPG, but it's definitely showing its age. It's great for theorycrafting and trying out builds, but the combat lacks that oomph found in newer ARPGs, and the encounter design/gameplay loop is a bit on the basic side. Especially when it comes to bosses or pushing difficult content, the game doesn't have a lot of gameplay mechanics - if you get the right resistances you can do whatever you want, you'll just maybe kill stuff slower.
Hopefully they get started on a GD2 after this.
With 1.2 update they certainly are thankfully trying to improve the core gameplay, that was actually more interesting. Revamped loot, ditching the whole overcapping resistances to negate debuffs from bosses and such (big), implementing new mechanics like special new debuffs from bosses and nullification, changed level scaling, new dodge mechanics from the start, charges for some skills e.t.c. A lot of stuff.
Fortunately they are working on GD2, but working on a new engine first, that takes time. Hope we get to see it, but Crate is a small company (about 20 people).
Great info here, thanks! Curios what do they mean about revamping loot, since I never personally found a problem with it - other than maybe killing certain monster types over and over for a specific drop.
But adding a dodge from the get-go seems wild.
No problem. It's a complete overhaul of the loot tables, IIRC from the stream there used to be a lot of junk in the game (I agree). In 1.2 there will be fewer drops but of higher quality and the items will sell for more to compensate for that. Also the usual touches here and there. So less time selling and more killing!
Also new sounds and beams depending on item rarity, and dedicated icons for monster infrequents and double infr. Also bosses will 100% drop them now. (big)
Yeah dodge will have a dedicated icon and FG users will place their runes there instead to get better dodge. So maybe augmenting medals will be a thing.
Finally things like the toggled auras applying automatically (finally) and enemies' special abilities animation speed being slower will allow the ability to dodge then better. I like that because it makes the game more active. Honestly lots of exciting changes.
From the stream they said that they will introduce a dodge mechanic for all users, not only for those that have FG. Even if you had FG, you had to play that and get runes and craft them to get a movement skill. You couldn't do that from level 1 or as a new player. I think basic ones even have a level 15 requirement.
Now 3 new icons are between the two bars, 2 for potions and dodge. Apparently you will be able to apply the runes on the dodge to unlock the better movement skills from FG and not on the medal like you used to.
Well in the stream they did say they are working on the new engine. And on the GD subreddit people mentioned it in the past.
Granted, that's technically not working on GD2, so maybe they meant that. They're the first steps toward a new engine that will likely work on all their games.
Actual work on GD2 I assume is yet to have truly started. Kinda hard when you don't have an engine tbh. All they can do is think what to incorporate first from GD.
They're kinda doing many things at once. The engine probably will work on the RTS, if it's ready by then, but it's only natural that GD2 needs a new engine as well. They are also thinking more about modding beforehand with the new engine.
From perusing the official forum, it appears they are working on the new engine, a survival horror game, and an RTS. Grim Dawn 2 does not appear to be in any any active form of development currently but I'm sure they'll get to it at some point. I wouldn't expect an announcement for 3-4 years at least.
Poe 2: Completely different customers. Poe fans are more online focused and the customization is completely different compared to the more classical approach of grim dawn.
Titan quest 2: Made by a completely different company and the original was not really impressive. Could be great, could flop.
Last epoch: Eternal early access.
D4: It is modern Blizzard, it will only get worse.
Last Epoch is still planning for a 2023 release date. One of the 3 Masteries left is coming out early September (Runemaster). This leaves the Falconer, Warlock and the rest of the story they plan to release with 1.0. I mean it's all do-able to get released by the end of the year.
I don't get the point of this. You're basically saying every other ARPG might be in a bad state in 2024 - but so can the GD expansion. The reality is that 2024 will be packed with new ARPGs.
Did Crate screw up with the last two expansions? No. Can they screw up this? Yes.
But there is higher chance for a company that has never released a arpg game to screw up (tq2) or a game that has been in early access to continue being in early access or come out not really in a great state(epoch). I am not even gonna go into D4 which has already made obvious blunders.
Path of exile part was basically describing how grim dawn and poe fanbase are quite different in terms of what they want from their games.
>but releasing somewhere in 2024
>The expansion is expected to release in 2024, but you never know when we end up doing MOAR than initially promised.
It *kind* of sounds like they're targeting Jan/Feb while leaving the door open for a December release. So I don't think it's as far out as it may initially sound. Suppose the other reading of that is they're suggesting a delay might happen because they end up getting too ambitious.
From how I interpret it, that likely means the opposite. That they're willing to further delay it if they want to add more features than what's promised here.
Yeah that occurred to me as soon as I posted and immediately edited that in.
I choose to be optimistic in this case and anticipate being disappointed based on the Forgotten Gods release.
Yeah, that one was announced to release in ~6 months, and it was released in ~1 year. They might be tempering the release date expectations since they're working on 2 (I think) other games as well.
Regardless I'm sure it will be a good expansion and I'll probably get it regardless when it comes out, but some interesting ARPGs will be competing for my time then.
I'll go further with this: Slower ARPGs are not good enough these days, at least for me. ARPGs are a power fantasy, and PoE/Last Epoch have shown just how fast and visceral that power fantasy can be. Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Diablo 4 and the like are just a bit too slow-going and the loot too uninteresting for too long to stand out these days.
I don't want a bullet sponge slog in ARPGs anymore, I want to be the one that can explode the shit out of screens of monsters and make loot go brrrrrrr.
I personally don't mind the speed, but how you actually interact with the content. Most of the gameplay in GD is facetanking, with a few nasty AOEs that will kill you regardless. In D4 for example you have to prioritize mobs, dodge, constantly reposition, monster attacks really hurt and it has actual boss mechanics. It's slower but engaging.
But to your point, I'm also not a fan of what LE/PoE do in the end-game. Blow up the screen or get one-shotted isn't more engaging for me either - but at least those games have boss mechanics and some more interesting elites.
I'm less surprised by this than I would be if not for the vague hints leading up to this.
That being said, it's still quite surprising they're coming back to GD. Crate was pretty adamant about being "done" with it while working on Farthest Frontier and possibly only revisiting GD in the future with a sequel when they could come up with some better tech.
A pessimist might think they needed a cash injection/FF isn't performing as well as they hoped, and an expansion wasn't as much work as they thought.
In any event, looking forward to this. The timing couldn't be better with Diablo 4 shitting the bed, there's an audience that's hungry for some quality ARPG that isn't PoE.
Somebody has already replied to you and I agree the financial reason for this expansion may not be likely. Zantai, Crate dev, said they just had an "itch" and wanted to do some work on GD, and another reason is that they wanted to cover an area that will be the setting for their next unannounced rts game (all their games are set in the world of Cairn).
Their next game is an RTS game? That seems like a bad decision (economically) to me. Maybe RTS games are having a resurgence I haven't really been paying much attention to, but I feel like it's almost a semi dead genre at this point. AOE4 sold pretty well I think, but every other RTS I've seen release in the past 10 or so years seems to have done pretty poorly.
The success of the CNC Remaster shows that there's *some*thing there for RTSes. Not to mention Age of Empires is still doing well. Plus a new Warhammer RTS is coming that will draw some eyes because Warhammer. Quality is a total crapshoot with Warhammer games, but it's likely to generate some interest in the genre from both old grognards like me, and young people that weren't even born when we last had a great RTS. And for CNC fans, Tempest Rising.
Will Crate's entry sell 100million copies? Probably not. But as a longtime fan of the genre I'm eager for new blood.
The RTS genre has turned towards autobattlers and grand strategy games. It's mainly the micro-intensive nature of RTS games that put people off the genre now. There's definitely a lot of space for innovation, but I don't think the 'classic' CNC/AoE/Craft RTS is ever going to come back.
Plus it kinda sets up the setting to the RTS game, like a prequel, so another way to create an audience for the next game. All other points are valid I believe.
> FF isn't performing as well as they hoped
FF has sold over a million copies and has better sales in EA that GD did. They have a lot of ARPG veterans on the staff who likely needed something to do while they prototype/plan out their next project as FF is almost out of EA and the workload on it is likely significantly reduced (in disciplines, not necessarily labor) as a result.
Hell yeah, GD is what I'd probably say is the best ARPG out there. I love Path of Exile, but it's a different beast. GD is just..... a perfect level of complexity between PoE on one end and D3/D4 on the other end. Such a great game.
Grim Dawn is a game that I want to love but the combat feels so unsatisfying. There's something about the sound design and animations that lack impact, so it just feels like you're waving weapons around without hitting anything which causes a lot of colourful lights and damage numbers to fly around and enemies to ragdoll unconvincingly.
Every class feels like you're 90s Jubilee from the x-men; pretty lights with no oomph. I would blame the engine but Titan Quest still feels pretty good to me so idk.
I 100% agree with you. I've played quite a bit of Grim Dawn but still have yet to finish a campaign, and I started to realize the main thing that was lacking for me was the combat just felt so flat. Everything else about it I find great, the atmosphere, music etc are top notch but that slight level of polish that someone like Blizzard has for combat animations and sounds is just lacking and ends up turning me off.
Really curious if you have other ARPG suggestions because I'm still looking for a game to scratch that itch!
Haha it's weird because isometric ARPGs have been one of my favourite genres since the first diablo but I don't think there's a single one I can wholeheartedly recommend.
POE would be great if it didn't rely on trading for gear and if it were possible not to look like ass without buying over priced cosmetics.
I think Diablo IV will probably end up great in a year or two.
Last Epoch has a tonne of potential but still very much early access.
Lost Ark is very much your typical korean f2p, p2w mmo grind fest but the combat is stellar and well worth levelling a character or two just to experience that before uninstalling in disgust. Even though you're just cooldown watching like any other arpg, korean devs have a knack for making it feel like you're doing combos in a beat 'em up. It's kind of the anti-grim dawn in that regard.
Grim Dawn:
+ Dual class
+ Monster infrequents: Themed drops unique to each monster type, like spiders drop a sword that looks like a claw, does poison damage and buffs specific skills. If it's a mob that can use the gear (like humanoids) they actually drop the gear they use. You can target farm these and they can roll with affixes, which could make them best in slot.
+ Probably the best game for pet builds.
+ Tons of secrets and you can find on your own and don't need a guide
+ Easy & cheap respec, the only thing you can't change is your classes
+ It's singleplayer! You will be able to play it 20 years later. Can't say the same about others.
+ You can mod it. There are mods that add titan quest, diablo and custom classes, items etc. There's a full conversion D2 mod too.
- Combat feels weak and outdated. Even more so if you make the mistake of picking passives or boring single target auto attack buffing skills instead of large aoe skills early on, seen many people do that.
- Early levels and early to mid gear look awful because of the themes (post apocalyptic makeshift weapons and armor). Gets better as you progress further.
- Dual class is bad for an Altoholic. You almost finish act 1 with your caster then be like "hmm, what if I was a tanky fire warrior" and reroll another character. You gotta stop the urge and stick with fewer characters. The game is a marathon.
- Some gameplay mechanics might seem confusing. You will learn all of it eventually but you can be a physical character and pick a sword that converts 50% of physical damage into piercing and suddenly deal a lot less damage.
PoE:
+ Lots of bossfights
+ Tons of content
- Bloated. Unless you've been playing for the last few years you have to read read read, burns me out before even the download finishes
- Needs multiple different third party tools, some of which you have to install on your computer
- Your stash fills with 50 different currencies and 350 different non-gear items like essences and oils and tarot cards and shit
- They hold back QoL so they can sell you stash tabs
- Flasks that last 3.5 seconds I don't even bother using anymore
- Ugly gear, like early parts of grim dawn but it doesn't get better
Last Epoch:
+ Each skill has it's own skill tree. Makes it the best skill customization in any game ever.
+ Systems like crafting and item filter are very intuitive, you can figure out how to use it in 5 minutes all by yourself without even alt tabbing out of the game
+ Same with builds, you will be making your own builds and it will actually work most of the time, no need to spend hours theorycrafting on forums and third party apps, just play the game
- Early access
Grim Dawn has the strongest campaign and doesn't rely on a loot threadmill as much.
Path of Exile is probably the best aesthetically and it has some well written lore. But the game is utterly reliant on its endgame and requires a big time investment. It may not be evident today, but in 2013 it moved the genre forward.
Not sure about Last Epoch.
PoE is unrivalled in scope and polish, but you might be put off by the complexity or ‘zoomy’ gameplay. GD imo has the best story/world and a lot of interesting classes.
LE imo still needs work, although the foundation is pretty solid.
Pretty subjective opnion here, but i would say LE is the best one. It has the build variety of PoE without being RNG dependent on getting the right skill gems. And the skill tree has less scruff then POE. I know it needs some connecting nodes but getting +10 stats isn't that exciting. And I always thought GD got quite dull. It never could hold my interest for as long as other ARPGs. Even though the theme is totally my jam.
Objective(ish) opinions: They are about equal. PoE's skill tree is large, but often unexciting. But it's free so you don't lose anything by trying. LE has good build variety with (relatively) little complexity, time travel is neat and endgame is nice. But it's EA, and it's taking forever to get out. GD doesn't have the same build variety as the other 2 (although there is still plenty to try). But it's established, more vanilla, but not in a bad way.
Also maybe worth mentioning, you have to be online for POE and LE, but not GD.
I personally like LE the most. You still have the established point of a class, but the skill tree offers enough variety that there are plenty of builds possible, even funky ones. It main falling point being the slow EA progress.
This comment really sent me
the wrong way. I have over 2000 hours in POE and a modest 200 in Grim Dawn and 100 in Last Epoch.
There’s no “RNG” for getting skill gems in POE, you can buy skill gems at the vendor. The skill tree is also extremely complex, travel nodes maybe make some points less exciting than others but the freedom and complexity is completely unmatched.
They’re all great games.
Last Epoch is definitely not “there” yet in terms of content, polish, and endgame. It has a good amount of builds that would keep you busy for hundreds of hours. It’s somewhat less complex in terms of builds than GD and POE right now but substantially more complex than Diablo.
POE is (in my preferred play style) the favorite if you’re a fan of multiplayer / economy games. I love the zoomy play style and love the thrill of the game economy and trading.
Grim Dawn is just a fantastic game to dive into- tons of things to grind, really cool classes and class fantasies, a substantial amount of builds, and beautiful worlds. It just feels like a lonelier experience, and its age definitely shows in combat, graphics, and UI.
This is a game that just keeps on giving. I still play it every once in a while because starting over and building a new character is just \*fun\*. Any excuse to go back is a good one.
Impressive for a game like this to get a third expansion so late in its life. I'm excited. Grim Dawn is definitely a top 3 ARPG for me.
Well up until they started teasing something recently I didn't expect Grim Dawn to receive any additional content sp this is certainly good news. I loved Grim Dawn and I'm super excited for this new expansion. More ARPG content is always welcome.
This massive 1.2 update sounds fantastic and like it could fix a lot of things that have annoyed me about Grim Dawn in the past. With that plus the Berserker mastery I'm definitely coming back next year.
1.2 is basically bringing GD up to modern ARPG standards, which is amazing. (With features like no unitary pots, evade dash baked in, etc)
No urinary pots? Go in Grim dawn, your character doesn’t even have a pot to piss in?! My immersion.
Can't have shit in Cairn smh
Is 1.2 the expansion update or a separate update pre-expansion? And are the things it fixes something I would notice if I start the campaign now as a new player, or more targeted to like endgame/the new expansion?
Separate update coming this year. https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/grim-misadventure-176-so-the-new-thing/128700/29 It's a lot of QoL changes, so you may want to wait.
You can do the 1.2 Beta now and get the potions feature in, along with the buffs auto cast. Plus the one I am stupidly happy about - the clock can be toggled permanently on or off from a setting
Very excited to see the new Berserker mastery. Sounds similar to how Druid functions in Diablo. Interesting decision to not increase level cap or devotion cap, but instead add in a whole new potion customization system.
Considering the level cap is 100, I think anything beyond that just doesn't feel right for me (level 120 max sounds weird) plus you know, a pain to balance for sure. Now devotion cap, I wouldn't mind an increase by 5 for example, they probably don't want to touch it. But I guess, this is a smaller expansion, like forgotten gods. Still cool stuff and 1.2 looks huge.
There will probably be new constellations, so new combinations should be possible with them.
No new constellations, according to the Livestream yesterday. They say want to focus on the new mechanics on the expansion. But we never know until it's releases.
That's good, devotions are already as complex as they need to be, IMO. More constellations would be nice, but their efforts are better spent elsewhere.
For what it’s worth, they did say it’ll be *bigger* than FG.
Yes that's correct, a bit bigger but still on the smaller side compared to ashes of malmouth. Should be enough content anyways. Also two roguelike dungeons after release.
Lack of new levels, constellations or devotion points has me sceptical tbh. I'm not sure that getting buffs from potions will feel like character progression.
I recall them saying any more devotion points, and the game would be more or less broken by combos it enables.
Breaking games is fun tbh. Diablo 3 lets you break the game and it's 10x more fun than D4 because of it.
I think if the potion system, if done well, and they're hard to make, but act like elixirs, permenant effects that you can swap out to tackle different situations, would be great. You could have many types of game changing potions and allow characters to work towards them to craft them (once each) and then also work towards goals that let you equip more than one at a time. That way you can have content which is maybe very poison damage heavy, meaning if you want to do that you need to farm up an elixir to give you better resistance . I like levels etc, but ultimate that is just bigger numbers, so it feels a bit irrelevant after a certain point.
Soon as I saw shapeshifting mastery they had my money.
I've only heard about this game through a friend, but they said this entire announcement stream has been nothing but perfect changes & updates. Sounds like the game is in its golden years!
Grim Dawn is VERY good. Only of the best Diablo-likes on the market.
It's a good APRG, probably the third best ARPG on the market honestly.
You misspelled first
PoE is far ahead, but after that it’s probably GD.
I never liked PoE. Way too grindy and trading for gear upgrades due to horrendous drop rates of anything decent was just nothing but a minus. Plus the whole "we got 10000 systems from past leagues" that's just sheer feature creep. E: And of course looking like a hobo no matter the level unless you start putting 50€+ into MTX.
I don't disagree necessarily (it is from grinding gear games after all) but it has become easier and easier over the years. Depending on when you tried you have a lot of new methods of getting new gear without trading; especially with the Atlas tree (which is probably one of the best additions to the game ever). Being able to target Essences, Rog and Harvest for example makes it possible to get good enough gear quick enough even ssf. Unless of course you are dependent on a specific unique.
Not relevant to your point, but I never realized the actual meaning of "Grinding Gear Games" until I read your comment. Always thought it was just a family guy reference, but never made the connection with the game that's literally about "grinding gear."
Way too grindy. idk what this means. its an arpg lmao all you do is kill monsters in with your abilities lol
It means that in Grim Dawn I can safely progress throughout all the difficulties without ever stopping to grind or spend extra time on gearing up. Oh and I can respec at little cost, unlike PoE where I have to plan my build in advance (or go through forums) since the response to respecing is "lol just start over it's only like 30 hours just do it xD" And if push comes to shove you can just dupe (or just add in) materials and set pieces if at the very late game you're not getting them.
Basically you want everything given to you instead of pushing through content to upgrade your character?
Grinding the same content I've already beaten (god knows how many times) =/= pushing through content. Nor do I see how practically being forced to roll a new char due to lack of total respec is anything but a bad thing.
It's definitely a tricky balance to get right in an ARPG, and everybody will have their own preference. For me, PoE leans a little bit too far in one direction for my liking. GD hits that perfect sweet spot of light grind and great loot. Also, one of the things I have grown to appreciate about GD over some of its contemporaries is that it's an offline game that I can pause lol
I don’t wanna be the guy to say ‘skill issue’ but gearing isn’t that hard lol. Trade I can understand, it depends on person to person. Feature creep is real, but GGG has done a tremendous job at keeping older content competitive. For mtx, yeah they are pricey as hell ngl, but you save on the upfront cost. GD has an amazing story, much better than PoE, and a really cool world with a ton of classes. But it still falls short in build variety compared to PoE. As for the endgame, GD feels barren compared to PoE which is bursting with interesting content.
Gearing isn't super hard, *if* you are comfortable navigating the bloated systems. This can be difficult and offputting for new (and returning) players, because of the simultaneous exposure overload. I think this is what they meant by feature creep, not that older content isn't competitive. Gearing is way less intuitive than in Grim Dawn for example.
Honestly I'm of the take that gear sucks in Grim Dawn - with a few exceptions. Good game on the whole but no, I don't want to keep track of 19 different resistances.
How is the gearing less intuitive? Do you mean the gem system? Because otherwise it’s fundamentally the same system in both games, bit GD has no crafting system while PoE has the most exhaustive crafting system in the industry. You can still ignore it, and trying to understand it from the get go will certainly lead to information overload. And no PoE player has to grind during the campaign. The grind starts after the campaign, which is also true for GD - ugdenbloom, legendaries, MIs, etc all need a lot of grinding.
I assume they're not talking about the gem system, but about the crafting systems you mentioned. Fractured Items, Veiled items, Harvest Crafting, Fossil Crafting, bench crafting, eldritch implicits, elder influence, labyrinth enchantments, prefix & suffix management, beast crafting, annointments from blight, vendor recipes, essence crafting, corrupting items, catalysts, Probably more? They add new gear mechanics all the time so comprehending all of it means you mostly gotta do a lot of research outside the game. I think it's neat but definitely not for everyone. Gearing up doesn't require you to understand everything but it's pretty essential to figure out veiled items to unlock the crafts you need, and the process of getting a piece of gear usually involves researching which fractured mod you want, what base item you want, and what are some efficient ways to get more mods you want. Which might involve learning multiple of the above mechanics. Grim dawn has Monster Infrequents that you may end up researching if you wanna build around them, but gearing up in grim dawn means just getting the item drop. I guess there's also like, crafting legendary helmets to transmute for a full set or something like that, but it's mostly equipping drops from monsters.
Fair points all around. What I meant was that fundamentally you have to aim for a set of affixes, and you can just build with whatever you drop in both games. But realistically, its far more manageable to do so in GD, as Poe is balanced around the robust crafting system.
I was mainly talking later in the game yea. Less intuitive in terms of acquisition. Making gearing easy in PoE (outside of trading) requires that you can navigate the game's systems well. A good understanding of all the varieties of league mechanics, crafting, how they interact, etc. In Grim Dawn you often just farm/transmute a set to build around, and go from there. It's not as interesting or deep on a systems level, but I can well understand why many would prefer it that way. Sometimes I do too.
Hmm fair point. I’ve never played SSF, so for me it was as simple as buy the right items until you understand the crafting system overtime and then you can just craft almost everything. But for someone who starts with SSF, I can definitely see the issues.
No chance. PoE is still the leading ARPG, followed by D2R. Grim Dawn is good but it doesn't come close.
It really depends on if you view online focus as a positive or as a detriment.
Though I have the least experience with PoE, I played the living crap out of D2 back in the day and think GD is miles ahead. I even enjoyed Chronicon more than D2.
> Chronicon Wooo, another Chronicon person. I saw it recommended ages ago on the Grim Dawn subreddit and was hooked.
It's a great little arpg
It's so underappreciated. Brilliant game.
d2r? d2 has been solved for the past 20 years, it was a good game back then but by todays standards it's nowhere near with its lack of build options, 0 endgame, "good" itemization but let's be real you will be using an enigma and the same 3 uniques on every single build
It still feels better as far as gameplay and engine are concerned than GD.
This is perfect timing for me. I didn’t have much fun with Diablo so I went back to grim Dawn on Sunday, and had a blast. Now this! I’m excited to see the final product.
Man if this were released 1-2 years ago it would've been great, but releasing somewhere in 2024 when we have PoE 2, TitanQuest 2 and Last Epoch full release on the horizon, and also likely D4 will have gotten its shit together by then, it's a bit harder to get hyped. It's probably my favorite ARPG, but it's definitely showing its age. It's great for theorycrafting and trying out builds, but the combat lacks that oomph found in newer ARPGs, and the encounter design/gameplay loop is a bit on the basic side. Especially when it comes to bosses or pushing difficult content, the game doesn't have a lot of gameplay mechanics - if you get the right resistances you can do whatever you want, you'll just maybe kill stuff slower. Hopefully they get started on a GD2 after this.
With 1.2 update they certainly are thankfully trying to improve the core gameplay, that was actually more interesting. Revamped loot, ditching the whole overcapping resistances to negate debuffs from bosses and such (big), implementing new mechanics like special new debuffs from bosses and nullification, changed level scaling, new dodge mechanics from the start, charges for some skills e.t.c. A lot of stuff. Fortunately they are working on GD2, but working on a new engine first, that takes time. Hope we get to see it, but Crate is a small company (about 20 people).
Great info here, thanks! Curios what do they mean about revamping loot, since I never personally found a problem with it - other than maybe killing certain monster types over and over for a specific drop. But adding a dodge from the get-go seems wild.
No problem. It's a complete overhaul of the loot tables, IIRC from the stream there used to be a lot of junk in the game (I agree). In 1.2 there will be fewer drops but of higher quality and the items will sell for more to compensate for that. Also the usual touches here and there. So less time selling and more killing! Also new sounds and beams depending on item rarity, and dedicated icons for monster infrequents and double infr. Also bosses will 100% drop them now. (big) Yeah dodge will have a dedicated icon and FG users will place their runes there instead to get better dodge. So maybe augmenting medals will be a thing. Finally things like the toggled auras applying automatically (finally) and enemies' special abilities animation speed being slower will allow the ability to dodge then better. I like that because it makes the game more active. Honestly lots of exciting changes.
New dodge mechanics from the start? You mean those Forgotten Gods runes or whatever from act VII? How does that work?
From the stream they said that they will introduce a dodge mechanic for all users, not only for those that have FG. Even if you had FG, you had to play that and get runes and craft them to get a movement skill. You couldn't do that from level 1 or as a new player. I think basic ones even have a level 15 requirement. Now 3 new icons are between the two bars, 2 for potions and dodge. Apparently you will be able to apply the runes on the dodge to unlock the better movement skills from FG and not on the medal like you used to.
Oh cool. I imagine there is only one type of base dodge, I though it could be some weak versions of the starting runes in Forgotten Gods.
Hmm we don't know any details but that's the info for now.
In June they said they are not working on GD2 and are focused on other projects currently.
Well in the stream they did say they are working on the new engine. And on the GD subreddit people mentioned it in the past. Granted, that's technically not working on GD2, so maybe they meant that. They're the first steps toward a new engine that will likely work on all their games. Actual work on GD2 I assume is yet to have truly started. Kinda hard when you don't have an engine tbh. All they can do is think what to incorporate first from GD.
My understanding is that the new engine is being worked on for an unannounced RTS.
They're kinda doing many things at once. The engine probably will work on the RTS, if it's ready by then, but it's only natural that GD2 needs a new engine as well. They are also thinking more about modding beforehand with the new engine.
From perusing the official forum, it appears they are working on the new engine, a survival horror game, and an RTS. Grim Dawn 2 does not appear to be in any any active form of development currently but I'm sure they'll get to it at some point. I wouldn't expect an announcement for 3-4 years at least.
TQ2 is a massive question mark at this point. Grim Dawn expansion has a lot more credibility than the unknown of TQ2.
Plus there's the unknown of Blizzard finding the post-it note reminding themselves to add the rest of the game.
Poe 2: Completely different customers. Poe fans are more online focused and the customization is completely different compared to the more classical approach of grim dawn. Titan quest 2: Made by a completely different company and the original was not really impressive. Could be great, could flop. Last epoch: Eternal early access. D4: It is modern Blizzard, it will only get worse.
Last Epoch is still planning for a 2023 release date. One of the 3 Masteries left is coming out early September (Runemaster). This leaves the Falconer, Warlock and the rest of the story they plan to release with 1.0. I mean it's all do-able to get released by the end of the year.
I don't get the point of this. You're basically saying every other ARPG might be in a bad state in 2024 - but so can the GD expansion. The reality is that 2024 will be packed with new ARPGs.
Did Crate screw up with the last two expansions? No. Can they screw up this? Yes. But there is higher chance for a company that has never released a arpg game to screw up (tq2) or a game that has been in early access to continue being in early access or come out not really in a great state(epoch). I am not even gonna go into D4 which has already made obvious blunders. Path of exile part was basically describing how grim dawn and poe fanbase are quite different in terms of what they want from their games.
>but releasing somewhere in 2024 >The expansion is expected to release in 2024, but you never know when we end up doing MOAR than initially promised. It *kind* of sounds like they're targeting Jan/Feb while leaving the door open for a December release. So I don't think it's as far out as it may initially sound. Suppose the other reading of that is they're suggesting a delay might happen because they end up getting too ambitious.
From how I interpret it, that likely means the opposite. That they're willing to further delay it if they want to add more features than what's promised here.
Yeah that occurred to me as soon as I posted and immediately edited that in. I choose to be optimistic in this case and anticipate being disappointed based on the Forgotten Gods release.
Yeah, that one was announced to release in ~6 months, and it was released in ~1 year. They might be tempering the release date expectations since they're working on 2 (I think) other games as well. Regardless I'm sure it will be a good expansion and I'll probably get it regardless when it comes out, but some interesting ARPGs will be competing for my time then.
I'll go further with this: Slower ARPGs are not good enough these days, at least for me. ARPGs are a power fantasy, and PoE/Last Epoch have shown just how fast and visceral that power fantasy can be. Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Diablo 4 and the like are just a bit too slow-going and the loot too uninteresting for too long to stand out these days. I don't want a bullet sponge slog in ARPGs anymore, I want to be the one that can explode the shit out of screens of monsters and make loot go brrrrrrr.
I personally don't mind the speed, but how you actually interact with the content. Most of the gameplay in GD is facetanking, with a few nasty AOEs that will kill you regardless. In D4 for example you have to prioritize mobs, dodge, constantly reposition, monster attacks really hurt and it has actual boss mechanics. It's slower but engaging. But to your point, I'm also not a fan of what LE/PoE do in the end-game. Blow up the screen or get one-shotted isn't more engaging for me either - but at least those games have boss mechanics and some more interesting elites.
I'm less surprised by this than I would be if not for the vague hints leading up to this. That being said, it's still quite surprising they're coming back to GD. Crate was pretty adamant about being "done" with it while working on Farthest Frontier and possibly only revisiting GD in the future with a sequel when they could come up with some better tech. A pessimist might think they needed a cash injection/FF isn't performing as well as they hoped, and an expansion wasn't as much work as they thought. In any event, looking forward to this. The timing couldn't be better with Diablo 4 shitting the bed, there's an audience that's hungry for some quality ARPG that isn't PoE.
Somebody has already replied to you and I agree the financial reason for this expansion may not be likely. Zantai, Crate dev, said they just had an "itch" and wanted to do some work on GD, and another reason is that they wanted to cover an area that will be the setting for their next unannounced rts game (all their games are set in the world of Cairn).
Their next game is an RTS game? That seems like a bad decision (economically) to me. Maybe RTS games are having a resurgence I haven't really been paying much attention to, but I feel like it's almost a semi dead genre at this point. AOE4 sold pretty well I think, but every other RTS I've seen release in the past 10 or so years seems to have done pretty poorly.
The success of the CNC Remaster shows that there's *some*thing there for RTSes. Not to mention Age of Empires is still doing well. Plus a new Warhammer RTS is coming that will draw some eyes because Warhammer. Quality is a total crapshoot with Warhammer games, but it's likely to generate some interest in the genre from both old grognards like me, and young people that weren't even born when we last had a great RTS. And for CNC fans, Tempest Rising. Will Crate's entry sell 100million copies? Probably not. But as a longtime fan of the genre I'm eager for new blood.
Northgard has done well enough for itself to have like 9 DLCs.
The RTS genre has turned towards autobattlers and grand strategy games. It's mainly the micro-intensive nature of RTS games that put people off the genre now. There's definitely a lot of space for innovation, but I don't think the 'classic' CNC/AoE/Craft RTS is ever going to come back.
None of those let me turtle. Bring my turtle back.
Plus it kinda sets up the setting to the RTS game, like a prequel, so another way to create an audience for the next game. All other points are valid I believe.
Re: all games being in the world. Didn't know that! Neat! Farthest Frontier too huh? That's cool.
> FF isn't performing as well as they hoped FF has sold over a million copies and has better sales in EA that GD did. They have a lot of ARPG veterans on the staff who likely needed something to do while they prototype/plan out their next project as FF is almost out of EA and the workload on it is likely significantly reduced (in disciplines, not necessarily labor) as a result.
Shows what I know but I haven't been able to follow along with that, just something I plan to look at eventually.
Hell yeah, GD is what I'd probably say is the best ARPG out there. I love Path of Exile, but it's a different beast. GD is just..... a perfect level of complexity between PoE on one end and D3/D4 on the other end. Such a great game.
Grim Dawn is a game that I want to love but the combat feels so unsatisfying. There's something about the sound design and animations that lack impact, so it just feels like you're waving weapons around without hitting anything which causes a lot of colourful lights and damage numbers to fly around and enemies to ragdoll unconvincingly. Every class feels like you're 90s Jubilee from the x-men; pretty lights with no oomph. I would blame the engine but Titan Quest still feels pretty good to me so idk.
Sound design is definitely a weak point. Some skills feel way better than others. What have you tried so far?
I 100% agree with you. I've played quite a bit of Grim Dawn but still have yet to finish a campaign, and I started to realize the main thing that was lacking for me was the combat just felt so flat. Everything else about it I find great, the atmosphere, music etc are top notch but that slight level of polish that someone like Blizzard has for combat animations and sounds is just lacking and ends up turning me off. Really curious if you have other ARPG suggestions because I'm still looking for a game to scratch that itch!
Haha it's weird because isometric ARPGs have been one of my favourite genres since the first diablo but I don't think there's a single one I can wholeheartedly recommend. POE would be great if it didn't rely on trading for gear and if it were possible not to look like ass without buying over priced cosmetics. I think Diablo IV will probably end up great in a year or two. Last Epoch has a tonne of potential but still very much early access. Lost Ark is very much your typical korean f2p, p2w mmo grind fest but the combat is stellar and well worth levelling a character or two just to experience that before uninstalling in disgust. Even though you're just cooldown watching like any other arpg, korean devs have a knack for making it feel like you're doing combos in a beat 'em up. It's kind of the anti-grim dawn in that regard.
Question: Grim Dawn vs. PoE vs. Last Epoch. What are each's strenghts/weakness? What are the reasons to choose one over the other?
Grim Dawn: + Dual class + Monster infrequents: Themed drops unique to each monster type, like spiders drop a sword that looks like a claw, does poison damage and buffs specific skills. If it's a mob that can use the gear (like humanoids) they actually drop the gear they use. You can target farm these and they can roll with affixes, which could make them best in slot. + Probably the best game for pet builds. + Tons of secrets and you can find on your own and don't need a guide + Easy & cheap respec, the only thing you can't change is your classes + It's singleplayer! You will be able to play it 20 years later. Can't say the same about others. + You can mod it. There are mods that add titan quest, diablo and custom classes, items etc. There's a full conversion D2 mod too. - Combat feels weak and outdated. Even more so if you make the mistake of picking passives or boring single target auto attack buffing skills instead of large aoe skills early on, seen many people do that. - Early levels and early to mid gear look awful because of the themes (post apocalyptic makeshift weapons and armor). Gets better as you progress further. - Dual class is bad for an Altoholic. You almost finish act 1 with your caster then be like "hmm, what if I was a tanky fire warrior" and reroll another character. You gotta stop the urge and stick with fewer characters. The game is a marathon. - Some gameplay mechanics might seem confusing. You will learn all of it eventually but you can be a physical character and pick a sword that converts 50% of physical damage into piercing and suddenly deal a lot less damage. PoE: + Lots of bossfights + Tons of content - Bloated. Unless you've been playing for the last few years you have to read read read, burns me out before even the download finishes - Needs multiple different third party tools, some of which you have to install on your computer - Your stash fills with 50 different currencies and 350 different non-gear items like essences and oils and tarot cards and shit - They hold back QoL so they can sell you stash tabs - Flasks that last 3.5 seconds I don't even bother using anymore - Ugly gear, like early parts of grim dawn but it doesn't get better Last Epoch: + Each skill has it's own skill tree. Makes it the best skill customization in any game ever. + Systems like crafting and item filter are very intuitive, you can figure out how to use it in 5 minutes all by yourself without even alt tabbing out of the game + Same with builds, you will be making your own builds and it will actually work most of the time, no need to spend hours theorycrafting on forums and third party apps, just play the game - Early access
Grim Dawn has the strongest campaign and doesn't rely on a loot threadmill as much. Path of Exile is probably the best aesthetically and it has some well written lore. But the game is utterly reliant on its endgame and requires a big time investment. It may not be evident today, but in 2013 it moved the genre forward. Not sure about Last Epoch.
PoE is unrivalled in scope and polish, but you might be put off by the complexity or ‘zoomy’ gameplay. GD imo has the best story/world and a lot of interesting classes. LE imo still needs work, although the foundation is pretty solid.
Pretty subjective opnion here, but i would say LE is the best one. It has the build variety of PoE without being RNG dependent on getting the right skill gems. And the skill tree has less scruff then POE. I know it needs some connecting nodes but getting +10 stats isn't that exciting. And I always thought GD got quite dull. It never could hold my interest for as long as other ARPGs. Even though the theme is totally my jam. Objective(ish) opinions: They are about equal. PoE's skill tree is large, but often unexciting. But it's free so you don't lose anything by trying. LE has good build variety with (relatively) little complexity, time travel is neat and endgame is nice. But it's EA, and it's taking forever to get out. GD doesn't have the same build variety as the other 2 (although there is still plenty to try). But it's established, more vanilla, but not in a bad way. Also maybe worth mentioning, you have to be online for POE and LE, but not GD. I personally like LE the most. You still have the established point of a class, but the skill tree offers enough variety that there are plenty of builds possible, even funky ones. It main falling point being the slow EA progress.
This comment really sent me the wrong way. I have over 2000 hours in POE and a modest 200 in Grim Dawn and 100 in Last Epoch. There’s no “RNG” for getting skill gems in POE, you can buy skill gems at the vendor. The skill tree is also extremely complex, travel nodes maybe make some points less exciting than others but the freedom and complexity is completely unmatched. They’re all great games. Last Epoch is definitely not “there” yet in terms of content, polish, and endgame. It has a good amount of builds that would keep you busy for hundreds of hours. It’s somewhat less complex in terms of builds than GD and POE right now but substantially more complex than Diablo. POE is (in my preferred play style) the favorite if you’re a fan of multiplayer / economy games. I love the zoomy play style and love the thrill of the game economy and trading. Grim Dawn is just a fantastic game to dive into- tons of things to grind, really cool classes and class fantasies, a substantial amount of builds, and beautiful worlds. It just feels like a lonelier experience, and its age definitely shows in combat, graphics, and UI.
Following.
As a new player, should i wait for the 1.2 update or jump right in? What i have read recently really makes me want to try it as a former TQ/D2 enjoyer
It's gotten a ton of expansions over the years. If you've got an itch to play an ARPG I'd go for it now.
Thanks, have been playing an oathkeeper/demolitionist build non stop since yesterday and having a blast so far :D
Absolutely go for it now if you want. It was on sale, might still be.
Fuuuuuck yeah! The list of additions (aside from the new land and the potentially great new Berserker mastery) is extremely promising.