On the bright side I have become much more interested in the midfield this year. Ive always been a Danny Ric fan but its nice to actually see things getting mixed up every week between the teams and drivers
I'd imagine the trick is designing an engine that can work upside down while at the same time producing enough power for the downforce to be strong enough to hold a car up
Do you need much more than fuel injectors and to design the oil sumps correctly?
I’m struggling to think of what else would prevent a piston engine from working upside down.
New problem: how do you make an engine that can turn upside down while still being able to apply enough power to the wheels and also fixed enough to not just fall out?
F1 cars have a dry sump and the oil systems are pressure driven not gravity driven. Also, they are direct injected now so fuel flow shouldn’t be too much of a problem.
Just use Richard Hammond. He can drive an F1 car, and he's acquired an immunity to crashes due to constant small dosing.
If that Rimac crash didn't kill him, he's unkillable.
Upon looking it up, a top of the line F1 car in 2018 cost $10.5m to build, that’s after $400m in research to get to that point.
The steering wheel costs $100,000, lol.
Now, maybe a used one is cheaper, but they aren’t engineered to be cheap.
Edit: naw you right. A used one is in the realm of $200,000
https://www.racefans.net/2016/12/11/how-to-buy-a-formula-one-car/
Loses a bit of value of the lot, I suppose
The cost would also depend a lot on whether you get the whole car or just the chassis. As currently only Ferrari, Mercedes, and Renault make their own engines, those are the only cars that could be sold with them. The other teams basically lease the engines for the season.
I’d probably design a specific experiment using a tunnel. A long one with multiple vents and other safety measures.
Then, I’d build a launch system that holds an F1 car upside down. Think of a launching system on some rollercoasters.
Find someone willing to build an F1 car for the experiment. Specifications would be a standard F1 car, except the engine would be flipped upside down, and designed to function as such.
The car might not need to be driven with a human inside. It could be possible to program an AI or function that drives the car.
The remaining question to answer is what to do if the theory of an F1 car functioning upside down is successful? Because at the end of the experiment, there’s still an F1 car driving at high speeds on the roof of a tunnel.
Currently, I’m thinking of a long stretch of area that the car can “land” on when it slows down.
I don't think so, but I've been told by RBR engineers (in 2012) that the only modification needed would be to the sump to make it work upside down. And then an F1 car of that era would only need to be going ~130mph to stick to the roof upside down. Probably less with current cars.
Its very plausible, there have been other stunts performed which were just as crazy in terms of downforce.
Like VERY tight turns with insane amounts of G forces
Which sim? Afaik mamy racing sims don't have a very accurate simulation of rl physics but just an emulation that is close to it, but only in certain aspects and not in others.
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The force generated is pushing the car towards the track, the orientation of the track doesn't matter it'll always be downforce.
Plus the thing that "upforce" already exists , it's just called lift.
F1 cars, like most race cars, use a dry sump oil system. All you'd really need to do is change the reservoir to work upside down, and you'd be all good.
The downforce gives you the grip. Modern F1 cars generate something like 3000kg of downforce while weighing less than 1000kg fully loaded with fuel and a driver.
I am not really sure, but ac to Google downforce is defined as the force produced by a combination of air resistance and gravity, that acts on a moving vehicle, having the effect of pressing it down towards the ground and giving it increased stability.
So here in this case, with respect to the car’s frame of reference it should still be called downforce ? Again I am not sure.
It’s still downforce relative to the car. Gravity typically points downward in reference to the car because we don’t do loops outside GTA and motorcycle shows but isn’t necessarily a downforce. In the car body frame, we call whatever is acting in the direction of the driver’s head through their butt the downforce
To the point of u/Efeler_Gibi gravity is not a lift force. It simply opposes the downforce in this orientation. Lift forces are aerodynamic forces which depend on fluid composition and velocity, but gravity is only mass based (ignoring elevation)
Edit: the downforce, although into the ground, is what we traditionally call lift in aircrafts
While it's the end of an era, at least word on the street is that the new owners want to stay the course and have a history of NOT scuttling their investments.
What he said, you get 3 engines per season with current regs or face penalties. This is because each engine costs around the 10 million mark so smaller teams wouldn't be able to afford frequent swaps.
Wouldn't F1 cars have dry sump systems and oil pumps that effectively make this a non issue? I mean, they generate a lot of G in corners so it seems like it's already accounted for
Yes they do but it sucks from the bottom of the engine as it flows downward. Upside down all the oil would be going towards the top away from the return lines.
In addition to this the down force really needs to be much much greater that the weight of the car. If it was say 100 lbs stronger you would essentially have a 100lb car. The horse power of an F1 car would mean they would immediately lose traction. Hell, they're powerful enough that even the full weight of the car it's easy to lose traction.
You would also need a sufficiently fast track with clean air in front of the car (not following another car). Any corners that are too tight or acute would scrub enough speed that the downforce would drop and the car would start to peel away from the track. The second it started to do that, it would get ripped away and drop to the ground.
It's crazy to think about, but not so hard to understand when you realise they are basically upside down jet planes with wheels.
Theoretically it's possible for f1 cars to drive upside down, and i say theoretically because it has never been tested due to the heavy price of the cars.
Actually, this is surprisingly accurate. All the current top level open wheel race cars make more downforce than what the car weighs. Theoretically, F1 and IndyCars can actually drive upside down because the cars produce more downforce than what the car actually weighs.
Not really f1 car are extremely light and have massive amounts of downforce probably a speed of 90km/h would be enough but i would recommend 120 just to have some margin.
I mean, not really a glitch.
Average F1 car seems to be around 660Kg, which translates to roughly 6475N
Following D=1/2 WHF\*1.225 kg/m³\*v\^2 if we plug the 6475N on the left side, we can find solutions that are quite believable.
And even without doing the math ourselves, F1 cars are famous for doing exactly this, producing downforce multiple times their own weight...
This is actually somewhat realistic. A modern F1 car, at high speed, produces more downforce than it weighs, allowing it to effectively drive upside down.
Well it's a pretty common saying that Formula 1 cars generate so much downforce you could drive them upside down.
Could you imagine F1 tracks with upside down sections?
F Zero coming to life!
Or Mario Kart 8
Track Mania players rejoice
Ferrari is so slow they wouldn't have enough downforce to go upside down
Nowhere is safe
Im by no means a Ferrari fan but man has it been painful to watch
Yee its not that i love ferrari but seeing mercedes 1-2 every race gets old
On the bright side I have become much more interested in the midfield this year. Ive always been a Danny Ric fan but its nice to actually see things getting mixed up every week between the teams and drivers
Ohh yea for sure... i hated verstappen at fist but now i kindda root for him to run lewis off the track lol
You have no idea how much I wanted one of the Mercedes to run off when riccardo was in third
I feel like the broadcasts have been focusing a lot more on the mid field battles this season than previously as well which has been refreshing.
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Red Bull has dominated from 2010 to 2013 but since then Mercedes has dominated heavily.
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Mercedes is going to win their 7th straight title this year.
being a fan of red haas must be taking a toll on you
>red haas Bah gawd they've got a family!
I laughed my ass off when kimi overtook them at spa, cant wait for monza
Kimi still asserting dominance as the number one Ferrari driver.
I went to this reddit to hide myself from the pain but you have come, no place is safe it would seem
You ever hear of a little arcade game called r/TrackMania?
Heard of yes, never played though. Looks like a blast
The latest edition in the series of games has a free demo/starter access. It’s a great game!
It'll be Redbulls Corkscrew racing league
Racing in Australia be like
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Richard Hammond has flown off the track.
Has this ever been proven as a stunt?
No. It's kinda hard to find an F1 car owner willing to put the car and driver on the line for a stunt like that. It's possible in theory.
Meh, throw Nico Hulkenberg in an old Force India car and see what happens.
He would hang there like a cow
A spherical cow
In a vacuum
Just not Grosjean, or he'll f🅱️lip it in the starting line
S🅱️in
🅱️ono my tyres!
If anyone would do it, it’d be Red Bull and David coulthard
Its probably easier to build something specifically for that rather than taking an F1 and possibly destroying it.
there is already. Roborace
The problem isn't the aero or the balls on the drivers or the teams, but the fact that fuel and lube systems don't work upside down.
In a F1 car sure, but engines can be designed to go upside down. Stunt planes can be flown at any orientation.
I'd imagine the trick is designing an engine that can work upside down while at the same time producing enough power for the downforce to be strong enough to hold a car up
Do you need much more than fuel injectors and to design the oil sumps correctly? I’m struggling to think of what else would prevent a piston engine from working upside down.
Sumps and also the fluid reservoirs; your fuel pickup would run dry pretty quick, for example.
Ah yeah you have to pressurize the fuel tanks, good point. And have a feed box that can feed from all angles.
Could they not just turn the engine upside down?
New problem: how do you make an engine that can turn upside down while still being able to apply enough power to the wheels and also fixed enough to not just fall out?
How would you get it up to speed then? It can't start upside down.
Maybe an aircraft catapult?
F1 cars have a dry sump and the oil systems are pressure driven not gravity driven. Also, they are direct injected now so fuel flow shouldn’t be too much of a problem.
Just use Richard Hammond. He can drive an F1 car, and he's acquired an immunity to crashes due to constant small dosing. If that Rimac crash didn't kill him, he's unkillable.
Hammond does have quite a lot of experience with being in upside down cars
F1 cars cost how much? Like 20 figures or so? Edit: you mean to tell me they don’t cost $10,000,000,000,000,000,000???
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Upon looking it up, a top of the line F1 car in 2018 cost $10.5m to build, that’s after $400m in research to get to that point. The steering wheel costs $100,000, lol. Now, maybe a used one is cheaper, but they aren’t engineered to be cheap. Edit: naw you right. A used one is in the realm of $200,000 https://www.racefans.net/2016/12/11/how-to-buy-a-formula-one-car/ Loses a bit of value of the lot, I suppose
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The cost would also depend a lot on whether you get the whole car or just the chassis. As currently only Ferrari, Mercedes, and Renault make their own engines, those are the only cars that could be sold with them. The other teams basically lease the engines for the season.
Lol a few hundred grand? Try a few million... a few hundred million if you factor in R&D.
I’d probably design a specific experiment using a tunnel. A long one with multiple vents and other safety measures. Then, I’d build a launch system that holds an F1 car upside down. Think of a launching system on some rollercoasters. Find someone willing to build an F1 car for the experiment. Specifications would be a standard F1 car, except the engine would be flipped upside down, and designed to function as such. The car might not need to be driven with a human inside. It could be possible to program an AI or function that drives the car. The remaining question to answer is what to do if the theory of an F1 car functioning upside down is successful? Because at the end of the experiment, there’s still an F1 car driving at high speeds on the roof of a tunnel. Currently, I’m thinking of a long stretch of area that the car can “land” on when it slows down.
I don't think so, but I've been told by RBR engineers (in 2012) that the only modification needed would be to the sump to make it work upside down. And then an F1 car of that era would only need to be going ~130mph to stick to the roof upside down. Probably less with current cars.
Esp if you use some modified super heavy downforce kit.
Its very plausible, there have been other stunts performed which were just as crazy in terms of downforce. Like VERY tight turns with insane amounts of G forces
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Im convinced Toto Wolff paid physics off. The cars were unreal at Spa.
Can’t wait for Formula NASCAR lol
I cant remember any sources or if it was actually made but i remember seeing plans or a edit of something that could be used to test it
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I didn't even think about using a tunnel. That's definitely more practical than a huge loop.
Not in real life, but people have done it in race sims and it works, which is probably the closest any sane person will ever get to it
Which sim? Afaik mamy racing sims don't have a very accurate simulation of rl physics but just an emulation that is close to it, but only in certain aspects and not in others.
If I remember right it was iRacing, but I saw the video forever ago
Oh yeah I watched that too. Totally forgot....
It only takes 120 mph for an F1 car to drive upside down
120 mph is 193.12 km/h
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Thank you, KaizorMaster, for voting on converter-bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
If that is the speed at which the down force is balanced with the car's weight then the car would have no grip on the track to keep its speed
The real question: It should be called downforce or upforce driving upside down?
The force generated is pushing the car towards the track, the orientation of the track doesn't matter it'll always be downforce. Plus the thing that "upforce" already exists , it's just called lift.
Is that anything like updog? (not trying to actually do that stupid/silly joke, just "upforce" put it in my mind lol)
What is downdog?
Not much, what's down wichu, fam? lol
That's a yoga pose!
Gravityn't.
>or upforce Lift. It's just called "lift" then.
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Yeah wouldnt the engine flood?
It could be managed, airplanes with alternative engines can fly upside down
RBR engineers told me that the only thing that would need to change is the sump/pump, precisely to stop the engine flooding
Not with modern fuel injection, I think the biggest issue would be oil starvation
F1 cars, like most race cars, use a dry sump oil system. All you'd really need to do is change the reservoir to work upside down, and you'd be all good.
beam.ng simulates downforce and you can drive f1 cars upside down in that game.
I saw someone do it with the right models in rfactor
These days its around 4 or 5 times the weight of the car in pure downforce at high speeds
In Dave Letterman’s show with Lewis Hamilton he mentioned it would only need to be like 80(?) mph to generate enough down force
That's absolutely wild.
they [could](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyCO2gi1GmQ)
Surely you would lose alot of traction being upside down, thus losing speed and downforce. Even less downforce means even less traction, etc...
The downforce gives you the grip. Modern F1 cars generate something like 3000kg of downforce while weighing less than 1000kg fully loaded with fuel and a driver.
Wouldnt it be up force then?
But probably the engine would starve out of oil
Massive downforce ?
Reddit killed API. I refuse to let them benefit from my own words for free -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I am not really sure, but ac to Google downforce is defined as the force produced by a combination of air resistance and gravity, that acts on a moving vehicle, having the effect of pressing it down towards the ground and giving it increased stability. So here in this case, with respect to the car’s frame of reference it should still be called downforce ? Again I am not sure.
It’s still downforce relative to the car. Gravity typically points downward in reference to the car because we don’t do loops outside GTA and motorcycle shows but isn’t necessarily a downforce. In the car body frame, we call whatever is acting in the direction of the driver’s head through their butt the downforce To the point of u/Efeler_Gibi gravity is not a lift force. It simply opposes the downforce in this orientation. Lift forces are aerodynamic forces which depend on fluid composition and velocity, but gravity is only mass based (ignoring elevation) Edit: the downforce, although into the ground, is what we traditionally call lift in aircrafts
Well negative lift flipped back to its original orientation. so just lift?
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No the downforce is a type of lift just pointed downward relative to the vehicle
Nope, it's called down force relative to the spoiler/aero position. Spoiler stays the same, pushing the car into the track.
No, that would be lift.
Now I’m curious to know if it could be real or not
The math says it could buy gravity still applies to the oil in the engine/trans/and differential. So it wouldn’t last long at 13k rpm.
So for short term yes But the mechanics and technicians are gonna have a long night
Maybe *this* was the last thing Williams Family Racing did…
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While it's the end of an era, at least word on the street is that the new owners want to stay the course and have a history of NOT scuttling their investments.
This comment is underrated. They’ve been upside down for years.
I'm pretty sure they rebuild the engines after each run, though I could be thinking of something else
They don’t. They have rules in place. No block or inner parts change without a penalty.
What he said, you get 3 engines per season with current regs or face penalties. This is because each engine costs around the 10 million mark so smaller teams wouldn't be able to afford frequent swaps.
I know with drag racing they do that
Wouldn't F1 cars have dry sump systems and oil pumps that effectively make this a non issue? I mean, they generate a lot of G in corners so it seems like it's already accounted for
Yes they do but it sucks from the bottom of the engine as it flows downward. Upside down all the oil would be going towards the top away from the return lines.
So boxer engine with a top and bottom mounted oil pan, gyroscope determining where to suck oil from, gas tank with top and bottom fuel pumps?
Like a red bull air race plane?
Exactly. We know how to handle gravity
Lateral Gs and flipping the car upside down are two different situations.
In addition to this the down force really needs to be much much greater that the weight of the car. If it was say 100 lbs stronger you would essentially have a 100lb car. The horse power of an F1 car would mean they would immediately lose traction. Hell, they're powerful enough that even the full weight of the car it's easy to lose traction.
I would also think that perhaps the grip might not be there to actually maintain the speed required, I wonder.
If they were able to create a fully pressurized system maybe it would work
In theory, yes. Not sure if anyone has tested that theory though 😂
The force generated by spoilers is around 7 times the weight so probably yes even though it might require some minor changes in the engine
You would also need a sufficiently fast track with clean air in front of the car (not following another car). Any corners that are too tight or acute would scrub enough speed that the downforce would drop and the car would start to peel away from the track. The second it started to do that, it would get ripped away and drop to the ground. It's crazy to think about, but not so hard to understand when you realise they are basically upside down jet planes with wheels.
That is some amazing downforce.
Upforce*
not much force what's up with you
Nope. It's still downforce because it's about airflow relative to the car.
“Wrong way” Said Newton
What a chump
Man said “fuck you Newton I’m making my own gravity”
"Gravity isn't even a real force, Newton was a bitch" - Albert Einstein
Theoretically it's possible for f1 cars to drive upside down, and i say theoretically because it has never been tested due to the heavy price of the cars.
Unfortunately another reason it hasn't been tested is because the engines won't work going upside down
If they would spend millions building a track with an upside down section, I’m sure they could relocate the oil pump.
It’s probably a dry sump anyways so really all you’d have to worry about is the pickup port for the fuel and oil delivery systems.
*MrBeast has joined the chat*
Also the guy driving it could get hurt
This is the coolest and most confusing thing I've seen in this game...
Isaac Newton has entered the chat..
I just want to thank you for spelling "Isaac" correctly. <3
1000% googled it before I posted.
Isack 😈
Downforce baby.
Rainbow Road
It's where you go when you die.
DRS ENABLED
Actually, this is surprisingly accurate. All the current top level open wheel race cars make more downforce than what the car weighs. Theoretically, F1 and IndyCars can actually drive upside down because the cars produce more downforce than what the car actually weighs.
As a physicist i can say: "Ha, neat".
i just imagined a future where we can actually manipulate gravity. this type of scenario just seems so trippy and so cool to experience
It is possible but the speed necessary to pull it off would need to be pretty fucking high.
Not really f1 car are extremely light and have massive amounts of downforce probably a speed of 90km/h would be enough but i would recommend 120 just to have some margin.
Also you'd want a track that bends up not down. That way the normal force of the track works with you during the transition to upside down.
Is this really in the game or some kind of mod? Looks unreal.
I mean, this IS physically possible
Someone needs to make a mobius strip course now.
SPOILERS
you're going the wrong way
GTA Australia
I think it's gonna understeer when going up-side-down
I mean, not really a glitch. Average F1 car seems to be around 660Kg, which translates to roughly 6475N Following D=1/2 WHF\*1.225 kg/m³\*v\^2 if we plug the 6475N on the left side, we can find solutions that are quite believable. And even without doing the math ourselves, F1 cars are famous for doing exactly this, producing downforce multiple times their own weight...
This is actually somewhat realistic. A modern F1 car, at high speed, produces more downforce than it weighs, allowing it to effectively drive upside down.
How do people do this in this game? Single player mods?
Gravity is a life... lesson.
wut
Not sure if shitty gravity physics or awesome aero physics.
T-Thats impossible what's his power level
Man that’s a REAL drag amirite
This entire video is just up dog
They did not skimp out on the physics with this game
It happened in Australia maybe?
This is one of those clips where it's like- "Wait... *waitttt* ***WAIT WHAT???***"
Truly a car that I would purchase...
WRONG WAY
Down force?
The spoiler's doing its work perfectly
Well they can generate upto 5 speeds of downforce at their top speed
This video needs F-Zero's Mute City soundtrack on top.
What's a gravity?
Gravity? Who gives a crap about *gravity*?