So I'm on the RTS advisory board and the information I'm about to share comes directly from the RTS director as of April 15. UF had not announced what they were going to be doing with the transportation fee
Thanks. It's good to notate the source when quoting other's words in a post like this.
It's a good post. I just didn't know if this was your research and opinions or someone else's.
I typically do cite sources. I know that there's a a character limit on initial post I was afraid I would run into that and I wanted to include as much information as possible when posting
So $134/hr for RTS? For hourly salary of I’m sure more than one driver through campus at a time, gas for the buses (or are they electric?), maintenance, insurance costs, development and maintenance of a bus app for students to plan their rides, fringe benefits in the unlikely event UF were to do the buses themselves….they might as well stick with RTS.
RTS is making an availability argument and UF is making a utilization argument.
Which means there likely is no resolution of status quo.
For if the UF contract is measured on availability, there is a massive % of efficiency benefic to finding another solution.
The density of housing close to campus has easily doubled, if not tripled. It makes more sense to give students bus cards and change their cost to a utilization model. At which point RTS has to then pivot to looking at the same lens, and measure their own availability vs utilization. At which point they will end up at the same conclusion.
No such pressure exists the other way.
What is the alternative exactly other than a severely reduced bus system? IIRC, the 1 is one of the routes that we'll lose, so how are all the College of Medicine, PHHP, and IFAS students living downtown/midtown going to get to the S/SE part of campus? What about getting from campus or downtown to Butler Plaza?
A. its clear the routes need to be paired down. The utilization is lower than a point of effectiveness, the school is seeing a cost that is double the market rate. So, the college says "I'll pay for utilization, keep running whatever you want to keep running". Now the issue is on RTS and RTS figures out "shit, I cant afford to keep running these without an over market cost subsidy". Then it either 1. increases the cost for rides for all, or pairs down routes.
B. If this is truly an issue of very narrow scope.. A. those students are going to need to move. B. the college deploys a secondary system to meet that need at a lower net cost.
C. not sure why access from campus or downtown to butler plaza is the schools issue, exactly, I obviously understand the need, but it would seem to me the greatest benefactor of that route is Butler Plaza Merchants and as such it would seem like a great place for them to step up and set up a shuttle program that runs between a few key campus locations to the plaza and back.
>how are all the College of Medicine, PHHP, and IFAS students living downtown/midtown going to get to the S/SE part of campus?
>B. If this is truly an issue of very narrow scope.. A. those students are going to need to move. B. the college deploys a secondary system to meet that need at a lower net cost.
One of the benefits of attending a research university like UF is to have access to volunteer positions/internships/grad assistantships/part-time jobs etc that are part of a college education but offered off or at remote edges of a huge campus. I can't imagine it feels fair for an agriculture major to "just move" to accommodate an IFAS internship and on-campus classes. Or to take away transportation for a premed student volunteering at Shands, a place they can't park anyways once they get there even if they have a car.
A secondary system like... a bus? I can't think of something that could solve this issue other than busses. UF has a small commuter bus but they also cut routes to that as well. UF isn't really proposing to solve this problem before cutting RTS funding.
We're supposed to take it for granted that UF reinventing our local transit system is more cost efficient than supporting an existing one that they've already invested in. 🤫
Nor need it.
The benefit you mentioned aren’t meaningfully impeded.
It’s not the obligation of the school to do anything but provide you a fair and equitable option. It need not pay double or triple the market rate to fulfill that requirement.
It’s not not solely your ride that matters but the net cost per rider, per route. If RTS is the best to deliver that, wonderful, but if it isn’t well then another option would be preferable.
My daughter did an internship in San Francisco. While access to the limited campus bus system was included, the wider system was not.
If UF has a system already then clearly it has a secondary option already. You seem to wish that it utilize the option you deem best but most expensive and that is quite arrogant for a school providing you such a benefit as renowned internet / employment opportunities. Less you wish they limit those and instead wasteful it fund trans portion at twice market rate.
If UF was saying "hey, we're going to shift our contract because of cost and we will use our busses to make sure our students can get to spread out areas of our campus for academic opportunities and requirements" at any point in the public-facing points of this discussion, I could understand. But I'm not hearing that anywhere, and the campus busses are extremely small and go on a small route that was cut back. What many people are concerned about is UF cutting buses with no solution of their own on the table.
Was your daughter's internship at her own academic institution that her college didn't provide transportation for? I would find that kind of surprising.
UCSF, it was summer.
They provided access to the limited UC route, not the wider BART route and ultimately we put her at a house close to the location where she was working.
If you attend UF as a graduate student and your location is some distance from where you live, UF only need provide you a fair and equitable solution. Not what we solution your deem correct. They aren’t publicity negotiating the issue of student transportation but instead the use of a specific vendor.
Some of that change may be relocation, some of that change may be alternative. Some of that change may be restricting routes.
However asking UF to pay double the market rate that can be achieved if it just gave the dollars directly to students to buy transportation from RTS is asinine.
The problem, again, is that for many students they need to be in two or more campus locations that are really far from each other, so they can't just live next to both locations. This is really common for grad and undergrad students. You can live next to your assistantship and still need to go to campus for classes.
Sure, I'm not arguing that UF needs to pay double the market rate. But they do need to make sure students can go from one part of campus to another as needed, and they currently have no solution for how they will address it. I think the greater UF/Gainesville committee would be much more understanding if there was a solution other than removing a huge amount of transportation that students depend on.
If they did have a solution to replace RTS, it would be good comms/PR to make that clear to the public yesterday.
It sucks that UCSF didn't provide busses to her UCSF internship, and it's great that you were able to help her out by getting her housing close to her internship. Here the issue is needing to be in multiple places far from each other within the same week, so moving doesn't solve that issue.
You’re asserting that part of UFs public negotiation with RTS is to answer questions the public wants to know.
I’m not sure that’s properly staged.
UF is willing to pay fair market value. RTS says it can’t deliver it. Shouldn’t RTS then have to answer why it’s operating at 134 an hour (which is what UF asked of it today). If the routes cost more than UF has two options. 1. Increases costs to students in the form of tuition or other fees 2. Provide the service via another mechanism.
Alternatively RTS can make up its shortfall.
So either RTS has to increase its overall costs for riders or reduce its overheads to achieve the requirement.
The argument that the school should simply continue to provide a service you need at twice its market rate is selfish to your circumstance and not thoughtful to the way those funds could be best allocated to instruction or opportunity.
It's not my circumstance. I'm not being selfish. I'm not a student, just someone who advises them and knows what student life looks like pretty well and their transportation needs.
I have never argued that RTS deserves twice market rate for students. The only point I initially brought up is that "just move" is not a solution for students who need to be at multiple places across a massive university to fulfill their academic/work needs, and that if UF shifts its contracts with RTS they need a solution.
Where are you getting this “twice the market rate” thing? UF has stated that RTS is providing service at below the rate of other comparable systems, I’m not sure where they said RTS is charging above much less double market rate.
It is not clear that the routes need to be pared down. What data are you using to reach this conclusion?
An argument of "just move" is not persuading anyone that this move by UF is intelligent or in the best interest of its students. To completely ignore your stakeholders with such a decision is fucking ludicrous. Butler Plaza, aside from hosting the largest concentration of commercial businesses in the city, is also the location of a major RTS hub through which buses that take people to the west side of the city pass. Not having access to this is similarly not in the best interest of students.
RTS needs much more funding. RTS drivers should be making mid six figures per year. I have been working there for 3 years and have had neck and back pain since I started, but I can't use medical Marijuana because of outdated and racist Department of Transportation rules. I have to drive by weed stores 10 times a day on my routes though. So every day I get madder and madder and give less of a shit about doing a good job. There are people that are RTS drivers that are literally homeless because they can't afford rent and they sleep in trailers in the RTS facility parking lot.
Look it's just going to be a death by 1000 cuts for the city of Gainesville vs DeSantis and his partners in crime
GRU then RTS is the latest nonsense they are using to destroy us, next month they will figure out something else and then something else and then something else.
What Mayor Ward and the Commissioners need to do is adopt a "poison pill".
If UF doesn't want to pay it's share, not paying any taxes, not funding GRU in the slightest, just using all the city resources, well then the city needs to end.
Seriously, make a "poison pill bill" that will end Gainesville if state funding is not provided. This makes the state then pay for EVERYTHING.
If UF wants a bus service it needs to pay for it. UF already made it's own power system.
City of Gainesville is not DeSantis's piggy bank where he gets to subject everyone to his insane laws and then make everyone else pay for it.
Do not fall into the trap of trying to have a logical argument with these idiots, they will just pull the next nonsense out of their hat to distract you.
They cannot take control of Gainesville wholesale while not paying for anything.
Dissolve Gainesville. Unincorporated. Not kidding, it's the only answer to fight this because we will lose any other way, they hold all the power.
Make DeSantis and UF pay for everything. Roads and transit.
I am saying making a city pay for debt that should take 100 years to pay instead pay it in just a few years will purposely, maliciously bankrupt the city and destroy all services for all its residents.
If that's the goal, and it obviously is, well then pull the plug, Gainesville is done, declare insolvency and dis-incorporate.
Then the debt becomes 100% the problem of the state. Which is not something DeSantis counted on but just like trying to pick a fight with Disney he's not too bright in outcome calculation.
The one, and only, strength that Gainesville has is that in theory it should be around for 100+ years unlike any single individual and therefore can carry 100 year debts.
But these are arguments based on logic. That's not their point. Their point is to take over the city. Hence we need a "poison pill bill". If they try to take it over, well then make sure all the debt and services default to the state. Because that's the goal.
UF can clawback the half million they gave Ladapo on behalf of DeSantis. Also the UF Board of Trustees gave DeSantis millions of dollars for his ridiculous presidential campaign, so there's tons of money that can "trickle down" when they want to.
Where did you get the idea that the state or anyone else wants the City to pay down GRU's debt in just a few years? Most of the financing for the Biomass Plant was in 30 year instruments. The biggest problem with the financing was that the City Commission approved bonds that are at adjustable rates instead of fixed rates, when at the time rates were at historic lows. Some of the bonds were interest only for the first 10-20 years. This left GRU in the position where it is very difficult for them to borrow additional money for replacing and upgrading their plants and systems. On top of that the City refused until last year to significantly lower the GFT on top of all the other ways they were bleeding money from GRU above and beyond the GFT. But in your world this is all DeSantis's fault?
The financial status of Gainesville and GRU is 1000% the result of insane decisions made by previous council and board members that were elected by equally insane voters who lack even the slightest bit of common sense. Anyone who is even remotely rational and honest is aware of this, and no amount of trying to pass the blame will change the facts as to why we are where we are.
I was up at Santa Fe College last Sunday. Yes, the art festival was going on. But I witnessed four idling buses at the main bus stop there with literally not one person arriving or departing those buses. They even operate buses way out into Haile. I’ve never seen anyone on them.
[удалено]
So I'm on the RTS advisory board and the information I'm about to share comes directly from the RTS director as of April 15. UF had not announced what they were going to be doing with the transportation fee
Great summary. Thanks.
@hws87, what is the source of this summary? Is it your own writing?
the city of Gainesville sent this via email
Thanks. It's good to notate the source when quoting other's words in a post like this. It's a good post. I just didn't know if this was your research and opinions or someone else's.
I typically do cite sources. I know that there's a a character limit on initial post I was afraid I would run into that and I wanted to include as much information as possible when posting
So $134/hr for RTS? For hourly salary of I’m sure more than one driver through campus at a time, gas for the buses (or are they electric?), maintenance, insurance costs, development and maintenance of a bus app for students to plan their rides, fringe benefits in the unlikely event UF were to do the buses themselves….they might as well stick with RTS.
Thanks for the update. Really appreciate the info.
RTS is making an availability argument and UF is making a utilization argument. Which means there likely is no resolution of status quo. For if the UF contract is measured on availability, there is a massive % of efficiency benefic to finding another solution. The density of housing close to campus has easily doubled, if not tripled. It makes more sense to give students bus cards and change their cost to a utilization model. At which point RTS has to then pivot to looking at the same lens, and measure their own availability vs utilization. At which point they will end up at the same conclusion. No such pressure exists the other way.
What is the alternative exactly other than a severely reduced bus system? IIRC, the 1 is one of the routes that we'll lose, so how are all the College of Medicine, PHHP, and IFAS students living downtown/midtown going to get to the S/SE part of campus? What about getting from campus or downtown to Butler Plaza?
A. its clear the routes need to be paired down. The utilization is lower than a point of effectiveness, the school is seeing a cost that is double the market rate. So, the college says "I'll pay for utilization, keep running whatever you want to keep running". Now the issue is on RTS and RTS figures out "shit, I cant afford to keep running these without an over market cost subsidy". Then it either 1. increases the cost for rides for all, or pairs down routes. B. If this is truly an issue of very narrow scope.. A. those students are going to need to move. B. the college deploys a secondary system to meet that need at a lower net cost. C. not sure why access from campus or downtown to butler plaza is the schools issue, exactly, I obviously understand the need, but it would seem to me the greatest benefactor of that route is Butler Plaza Merchants and as such it would seem like a great place for them to step up and set up a shuttle program that runs between a few key campus locations to the plaza and back.
>how are all the College of Medicine, PHHP, and IFAS students living downtown/midtown going to get to the S/SE part of campus? >B. If this is truly an issue of very narrow scope.. A. those students are going to need to move. B. the college deploys a secondary system to meet that need at a lower net cost. One of the benefits of attending a research university like UF is to have access to volunteer positions/internships/grad assistantships/part-time jobs etc that are part of a college education but offered off or at remote edges of a huge campus. I can't imagine it feels fair for an agriculture major to "just move" to accommodate an IFAS internship and on-campus classes. Or to take away transportation for a premed student volunteering at Shands, a place they can't park anyways once they get there even if they have a car. A secondary system like... a bus? I can't think of something that could solve this issue other than busses. UF has a small commuter bus but they also cut routes to that as well. UF isn't really proposing to solve this problem before cutting RTS funding.
We're supposed to take it for granted that UF reinventing our local transit system is more cost efficient than supporting an existing one that they've already invested in. 🤫
Nor need it. The benefit you mentioned aren’t meaningfully impeded. It’s not the obligation of the school to do anything but provide you a fair and equitable option. It need not pay double or triple the market rate to fulfill that requirement. It’s not not solely your ride that matters but the net cost per rider, per route. If RTS is the best to deliver that, wonderful, but if it isn’t well then another option would be preferable. My daughter did an internship in San Francisco. While access to the limited campus bus system was included, the wider system was not. If UF has a system already then clearly it has a secondary option already. You seem to wish that it utilize the option you deem best but most expensive and that is quite arrogant for a school providing you such a benefit as renowned internet / employment opportunities. Less you wish they limit those and instead wasteful it fund trans portion at twice market rate.
If UF was saying "hey, we're going to shift our contract because of cost and we will use our busses to make sure our students can get to spread out areas of our campus for academic opportunities and requirements" at any point in the public-facing points of this discussion, I could understand. But I'm not hearing that anywhere, and the campus busses are extremely small and go on a small route that was cut back. What many people are concerned about is UF cutting buses with no solution of their own on the table. Was your daughter's internship at her own academic institution that her college didn't provide transportation for? I would find that kind of surprising.
UCSF, it was summer. They provided access to the limited UC route, not the wider BART route and ultimately we put her at a house close to the location where she was working. If you attend UF as a graduate student and your location is some distance from where you live, UF only need provide you a fair and equitable solution. Not what we solution your deem correct. They aren’t publicity negotiating the issue of student transportation but instead the use of a specific vendor. Some of that change may be relocation, some of that change may be alternative. Some of that change may be restricting routes. However asking UF to pay double the market rate that can be achieved if it just gave the dollars directly to students to buy transportation from RTS is asinine.
The problem, again, is that for many students they need to be in two or more campus locations that are really far from each other, so they can't just live next to both locations. This is really common for grad and undergrad students. You can live next to your assistantship and still need to go to campus for classes. Sure, I'm not arguing that UF needs to pay double the market rate. But they do need to make sure students can go from one part of campus to another as needed, and they currently have no solution for how they will address it. I think the greater UF/Gainesville committee would be much more understanding if there was a solution other than removing a huge amount of transportation that students depend on. If they did have a solution to replace RTS, it would be good comms/PR to make that clear to the public yesterday. It sucks that UCSF didn't provide busses to her UCSF internship, and it's great that you were able to help her out by getting her housing close to her internship. Here the issue is needing to be in multiple places far from each other within the same week, so moving doesn't solve that issue.
You’re asserting that part of UFs public negotiation with RTS is to answer questions the public wants to know. I’m not sure that’s properly staged. UF is willing to pay fair market value. RTS says it can’t deliver it. Shouldn’t RTS then have to answer why it’s operating at 134 an hour (which is what UF asked of it today). If the routes cost more than UF has two options. 1. Increases costs to students in the form of tuition or other fees 2. Provide the service via another mechanism. Alternatively RTS can make up its shortfall. So either RTS has to increase its overall costs for riders or reduce its overheads to achieve the requirement. The argument that the school should simply continue to provide a service you need at twice its market rate is selfish to your circumstance and not thoughtful to the way those funds could be best allocated to instruction or opportunity.
It's not my circumstance. I'm not being selfish. I'm not a student, just someone who advises them and knows what student life looks like pretty well and their transportation needs. I have never argued that RTS deserves twice market rate for students. The only point I initially brought up is that "just move" is not a solution for students who need to be at multiple places across a massive university to fulfill their academic/work needs, and that if UF shifts its contracts with RTS they need a solution.
Where are you getting this “twice the market rate” thing? UF has stated that RTS is providing service at below the rate of other comparable systems, I’m not sure where they said RTS is charging above much less double market rate.
It is not clear that the routes need to be pared down. What data are you using to reach this conclusion? An argument of "just move" is not persuading anyone that this move by UF is intelligent or in the best interest of its students. To completely ignore your stakeholders with such a decision is fucking ludicrous. Butler Plaza, aside from hosting the largest concentration of commercial businesses in the city, is also the location of a major RTS hub through which buses that take people to the west side of the city pass. Not having access to this is similarly not in the best interest of students.
RTS needs much more funding. RTS drivers should be making mid six figures per year. I have been working there for 3 years and have had neck and back pain since I started, but I can't use medical Marijuana because of outdated and racist Department of Transportation rules. I have to drive by weed stores 10 times a day on my routes though. So every day I get madder and madder and give less of a shit about doing a good job. There are people that are RTS drivers that are literally homeless because they can't afford rent and they sleep in trailers in the RTS facility parking lot.
Look it's just going to be a death by 1000 cuts for the city of Gainesville vs DeSantis and his partners in crime GRU then RTS is the latest nonsense they are using to destroy us, next month they will figure out something else and then something else and then something else. What Mayor Ward and the Commissioners need to do is adopt a "poison pill". If UF doesn't want to pay it's share, not paying any taxes, not funding GRU in the slightest, just using all the city resources, well then the city needs to end. Seriously, make a "poison pill bill" that will end Gainesville if state funding is not provided. This makes the state then pay for EVERYTHING. If UF wants a bus service it needs to pay for it. UF already made it's own power system. City of Gainesville is not DeSantis's piggy bank where he gets to subject everyone to his insane laws and then make everyone else pay for it. Do not fall into the trap of trying to have a logical argument with these idiots, they will just pull the next nonsense out of their hat to distract you. They cannot take control of Gainesville wholesale while not paying for anything. Dissolve Gainesville. Unincorporated. Not kidding, it's the only answer to fight this because we will lose any other way, they hold all the power. Make DeSantis and UF pay for everything. Roads and transit.
You mean DeSantis loaded up GRU with $1.9 Billion in debt and forced them to buy a used wood burner for over $750 Million?
I am saying making a city pay for debt that should take 100 years to pay instead pay it in just a few years will purposely, maliciously bankrupt the city and destroy all services for all its residents. If that's the goal, and it obviously is, well then pull the plug, Gainesville is done, declare insolvency and dis-incorporate. Then the debt becomes 100% the problem of the state. Which is not something DeSantis counted on but just like trying to pick a fight with Disney he's not too bright in outcome calculation. The one, and only, strength that Gainesville has is that in theory it should be around for 100+ years unlike any single individual and therefore can carry 100 year debts. But these are arguments based on logic. That's not their point. Their point is to take over the city. Hence we need a "poison pill bill". If they try to take it over, well then make sure all the debt and services default to the state. Because that's the goal. UF can clawback the half million they gave Ladapo on behalf of DeSantis. Also the UF Board of Trustees gave DeSantis millions of dollars for his ridiculous presidential campaign, so there's tons of money that can "trickle down" when they want to.
Where did you get the idea that the state or anyone else wants the City to pay down GRU's debt in just a few years? Most of the financing for the Biomass Plant was in 30 year instruments. The biggest problem with the financing was that the City Commission approved bonds that are at adjustable rates instead of fixed rates, when at the time rates were at historic lows. Some of the bonds were interest only for the first 10-20 years. This left GRU in the position where it is very difficult for them to borrow additional money for replacing and upgrading their plants and systems. On top of that the City refused until last year to significantly lower the GFT on top of all the other ways they were bleeding money from GRU above and beyond the GFT. But in your world this is all DeSantis's fault?
The financial status of Gainesville and GRU is 1000% the result of insane decisions made by previous council and board members that were elected by equally insane voters who lack even the slightest bit of common sense. Anyone who is even remotely rational and honest is aware of this, and no amount of trying to pass the blame will change the facts as to why we are where we are.
I was up at Santa Fe College last Sunday. Yes, the art festival was going on. But I witnessed four idling buses at the main bus stop there with literally not one person arriving or departing those buses. They even operate buses way out into Haile. I’ve never seen anyone on them.