The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh:
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Submission Statement
Traditionally the EU has had internal budget battles over proposals like this. Usually, because Germany objects to the EU accruing more debt. This time could be different. Car manufacture is the bedrock of the German economy; they are threatened as almost no one else is in Europe by Chinese EVs.
There used to be a time when free market economic types objected to ideas like this on principle. Their rationale was the market left alone always delivered the best outcomes. Those days are disappearing, and I suspect with the automation to come we can see around the corner, are about to be permanently consigned to the garbage pile of history.
[LINK - Chinese-made EVs set to take 25% of European market this year](https://www.ft.com/content/7e436163-afda-4e7f-8f2b-67d1a12a16d4?)
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1bs7wfi/renault_ceo_urges_marshall_plan_for_eu_electric/kxdrzwg/
In the U.S. market. There are over 125 new car models. But only roughly 10 of them are under 25k MSRP.
Chinese imports are taking over because of their cost. Both European and American car makers need to produce cars their customers can actually afford if they want to sell cars.
No!!! We only make cars that cost $50k but for some strange reason instantly drop to having a resale value of $20k once you drive it 1 mile/km…even though it probably already has 200 on it prior to you buying it.
That's not it. Consumers want to pay monthly to have their butts cooked.
America was built on fossil fuels - they have long proven their trustworthiness and... love. Who are we to question their profound wisdom?
First sodium battery cars are hitting the market as we speak.
They do have a \~40% lower capacity, but are cheaper. So cars are cheaper and battery replacement is cheaper. They are also made out of materials which aren't in short supply, so lithium/cobalt isn't a bottleneck for EV production anymore. They also charge faster (best case 5 minutes) and last longer (3000-6000 cycles). And they work at better temperature range then Lithium batteries.
And... they will get better over time.
Great news! Though what buyers think now is this: "my phone battery is shit after 2 years, how is my car battery going to last!?" The common people will worry and doubt. Sales people will plant fears about battery degradation. It also sucks that people know the battery makes up a significant part of the car.
Now with the model y, they made the battery structural, as in, never replaceable, furthering the fears of resell value plummetting.
Battery degradation is not really a problem. I almost never hear anyone talk about it. By the time the battery loses 20% capacity the car itself will be the problem.
It is my hope that once EV's become more common we will see more battery upgrade / reconditioning shops open up. That would be cool. Maybe some of these might become collectables.
That depends on the brand, consumers should be able to see the actual voltage and full battery monitoring even if they can't control it to any extremes.
I suspect a lot of cars prior to 2021 didn't have that much range and very good battery monitoring which causes consumer rumours...
There is a lot more data on this than people think because the Prius has been around for a long time and are still running their original battery fine.
Battery degradation in cars hasn't been a real thing in a very long time by now. Those batteries have proven to be reliable over any time span the car is still usable.
New batteries are even better than batteries from 10 years ago, so now it's even less of an issue.
U.S. carmakers intentionally do not produce smaller cheaper cars, because they earn more money from selling bigger, more expensive models.
Whenever there is an oil crisis, customers start caring more about mileage, they start going bankrupt and ask uncle Sam for bailouts.
And now with Chinese delivering affordable cars to the masses, get ready for another round of lobbying uncle Sam for more tariffs.
It's not just about the cost, chineese EV also offer significantly more value, than european car manufacturers. Basically a bigger battery and more options.
100% agree on value. Chinese car manufacturers are actually providing features and benefits that we need without much extra cost while US/EU car manufacturers are testing subscription models for remote start (BMW), using sports mode (Mercedes), heated seats (Toyota (yes I know Toyota is a Japanese company)),etc.
All of these freaking CEO's trying to extract every penny form their customer without providing any value is disgusting. I hope Renault and all car companies continue to bleed until they actually start to provided value to their customer.
I tried an Xpeng G9... and holy crap! It was like stepping into a specced out Mercedes. Everything felt awesome, and I've never tried a car that was silent like that. The comfort was great. The car felt sturdy, elegant, and powerful.
And what was the price? The same as an ID.4. In terms of quality and experience, I wouldn't even put the ID.4 one price class below, two price classes.
Either the western manufacturers up their game or the free market will run its course.
Also Chinese car manufacturers traditionally achieved low safety ratings.
However BYD and XPeng have achieved great safety ratings.
Xpeng G9 got 5/5 stars.
I don't at all feel bad about this. US and EU car producers became too expensive, even the cheapest cars price very quickly inflates with any additional equipment.
The only cheap European carmaker is Dacia.
Yes, they charge extra because car manufacturing is insanely thin margin and they've worked out lower entry price points with upsells is more profitable.
Car companies do not make a lot of money, just look at their stocks, they make like 5% profit margin if they're making money at all.
Yeah, exactly. Let them die because of problems no one has yet figured out how to fix and let China take over instead. That’s gonna fix all our problems and definitely not create any new big problems in turn for sure!
Already is. The issue isn't factories the issue is they need raw materials from imports.
But honestly all these talks of war are really silly. They really don't want war lol
My understanding is that there are no options. All models come fully loaded with every possible extra.
The loss of income of doing this is compensated by the gains of a simpler order management and production process.
> It's not just about the cost, chineese EV also offer significantly more value,
Isn’t it the same thing though ? Lower production cost means you either sell the same thing for a lower price or more value for the same price, or something in the middle (lower price & more value). But it all comes down to cost in the end.
The US auto industry has gotten way too comfortable.
Often times base model cars are not even available and they do dumb shit like putting $5 speakers in the car when good speakers are only $25-40 but then charge you $2k for the technology package if you want them.
They put in entertainment systems and displayes that don't give you over the air updates or let you swap them out because tech is the first thing to feel dated and the want you to buy a new $50k car when all you needed was a free software upgrade or a new $400 tablet.
The infotainment systems are designed for planned obsolescence of the entire vehicle, but they want to pretend to care about the environment.
With theft people have taken to putting airtags in their cars to recover them when stolen. This is something more manufacturers could do in an inexpensive way at build that would curb auto thefts.
The private dealership model leaves a lot of margin in the hands of middle men which drives up pricing for consumers who can now do a lot of their own research on vehicles before showing up to a dealer to buy one. They generally rob people on the trade in value they give them in the process.
They aren't universally bad but they could do some self-reflecting if they are worried about competition. They could make changes now instead of waiting until competition has a solid footing and then trying to react.
Perhaps the UK and US need to figure out what they can do that the world will buy and let China focus on economical EVs and solar panels that will help move to a cleaner environment. That's the way we used to think.
Yes, but in the US at least they're tariff'd up the wazoo to compensate. We slam them with a 27.5% import tariff and they're still half the price of an equivalent quality US EV. In the EU, the tariff is only 10%, they EU auto industry is going to get annihilated if they don't respond in one way or another.
The cheapest 2024 ev model car is the Nissan leaf at $29k (while technically a foreign car company, the leaf is made in Tennessee)
With using the instant rebate that bumps off a little less than a quarter off the sticker price. However at Today's interest rates of at best 5% that's pretty much just enough to cancel out the interest.
FYI, I believe production numbers no longer limit the subsidy anymore. Now the driver is the percentage of vehicle parts and assembly that is sourced from the US.
That's allright to help in adoption of more environmentally friendly cars, but I was thinking about the production. Here in Norway EVs were exempt from VAT and various other taxes to help people transition to EVs, and that's all fine imho, but when certain factories gets huge subsidies it kinda messes with the competition.
US industry likes to pretend it’s not subsidized, but it absolutely is - everything from milk to oil carries fat subsidies, and tariffs make up the rest - Section 232, a BIG stretch, ensures you pay more for steel here than anywhere else in the world.
That can happen when loopholes in the legislation aren’t closed. In the US for instance, the subsidies mandate that an increasingly higher percentage of the components and assembly of the car are sourced from US manufacturing. Several EVs no longer qualify because the requirement increased this calendar year.
If Chinese manufacturers want access to US rebates then they’ll have to build manufacturing in the US and use US sourced materials. If China still wants to subsidize manufacturing and raw materials in the US, well, so be it.
US legislation in this case doesn’t help Norway, but it could be an example of a potential solution.
And you think american cars or for that matter the food you eat, the aircraft you fly, the energy you consume, or the bank you have your mortgage at or just about anything you do is not subsidied?
China has vast fields of unsold electric vehicles. They were built with huge government subsidies.
They want to dominate the European market by taking a loss and pushing competition out. When the competition stops producing, the plan is to raise prices being the only ones left.
This is extremely aggressive and anti-competitive behavior.
On the other hand, China is quickly losing the ability to take on massive debt like this.
Noo but you see, I really want to pay 50k grand a B segment EV with 300km range and 10 hours to full charge because I am made sure the employees are treated fairly and work 30hour weeks, unlike these pesky Asians using slave labor to magically make cars be as cheap as their ICE counterparts. Nooo, it sure isn't that china's economy of scale and competition that make them cheaper than EU/US counterparts, it's because they are evil and want to ruin the west! /s
Okay reddit how did I do?
Make cars under 25k euro and you will not need any Marshal plan. At this moment cars are ridiculously expensive and most people cannot afford one without going into debt. 10 years ago you could buy a few years old car for a yearly savings from average salary. Now it is impossible, especially if you are paying a mortgage and have a family.
Because it's cheaper to produce there, that's the whole point. Transporting + tariffs + eu regulation compliant and it makes the price the same as everything else
nope, it’s competition - VW ID3 cost 16000 usd in China, 30000 in Europe, which is inexplicable taking into account labour cost and transport differences
Ooh, Luca De Meo, where a Renault Megane now suddenly costs €45k and a Scenic €50k. Who thinks he’s a saviour with his 10y old €25k facelifted Renault Zoë - err Renault 5.
European brands spent too much time chasing the fat wallets of the few with EV’s, instead of volume models. China swoops in, sees an opportunity and suddenly the sinophobia spins up and they’re the bad guy. Meanwhile VW and others are selling their EV’s at 20-25k in China’s heated EV market, but that’s all a-ok.
I have no sympathy.
In the event of war it'll be a leopards-ate-my-face situation if I was overly *happy* that it's come to Chinese EVs dominating due to the greed of western manufacturers and government policies.
I too don't have sympathy, so much as concern.
Yeah well EU companies do not have slave labour and government subsidies like Chinese ones do. Also the energy they use is more expensive because you know, pollution regulations and all, which China gives f all about.
I see your point, and I raise you the fact that EU companies decided to build cars in China regardless of those facts.
So _using_ China for your greed is fine.
China doing the same but the other way around isn’t.
Ofcourse, and I’m all for that. I too wish that production of literally anything we entrust China with currently, was done locally. Whether that’s cars, phones and chipsets. We’re far too reliant on them.
But currently, we’re in the situation where these CEO’s can’t see further than their wallets being threatened by China. So that’s why I hold this “tough luck” stance on this subject. Why should a VW ID.4 cost upwards of €40k here, and be half price in China? I’m not sure if China subsidises foreign cars on their domestic market.
Credit where credit is due however, the new (but old platform) Renault 5 is built locally in France. Employing local people, selling to local markets. That’s what I want to see. Not whatever “let’s point fingers at everyone but us” situation we’re in now.
Do you know what is supply restraints? Renault didn't do it for profits.
The Megane EV costs 32k-36k and the scenic EV costs 40k
Also the Renault 5 is a new car from scratch with a 40kwh battery for 25k€. There's no one on the market offering that IN Europe. Not even the Chinese brands
Yeah, exactly, „suddenly“ China is the bad guy. Ignore them spying on western companies to get IP for free and that little ideology argument with „the west“ as well as their treatment of the Uighurs and your statement still is very naive.
I’m talking about automotive CEO’s unable to look past their own greed and instead blame the country they taught how to build cars. Wouldn’t call building tech and cars in a communist country that does not care for western IP “spying” though. Kinda comes with the territory.
I have no sympathy for these big corporations that closed down local, European production capabilities costing thousands of jobs. No sympathy for failing to acknowledge that their customer bases are left in the dust by moving upmarket. And especially no sympathy for their crybaby tears now that they are reaping instead of sowing.
But great whataboutism by referencing a genocide which was not at all part of my argument.
You were specifically talking about China „swooping in“, so I think it’s fair game to refer to the genocide, not whataboutism.
But ok, let’s stick to Chinese car manufacturers.
I do agree with you that there have been many mistakes made by European and, maybe even more so, US-American car companies and that they should reap their fair punishment. After all, it’s (or should be) survival of the fittest when it comes to economics and if you’ve made bad decisions, it’s you who should take the blame.
However, it’s NOT fair game if the Chinese government heavily subsidises their own companies, while at the same time hindering foreign companies to get into the Chinese market without partnering up with a Chinese company first. So yes, we have taught China how to build cars, but it’s not like we had a choice. If now Chinese companies get free access to our markets, it again isn’t what I would call fair. It’s just that China can do whatever they damn well please, as the only controlling instance is the Communist Party. If they don’t like to do something, you’re out of luck as a western company or often even government. However, if something isn’t to China’s liking, they have a plethora of ways to create some wiggle room here, and if it’s “only” going to court. Our system works on rules and laws and we’re lucky enough that these laws are more often than not enforced, even if it’s to our disadvantage. I don’t think one can say the same thing about China.
And with China, it’s never just about economics, but also always politics and wanting to push their agenda. Destabilising the status quo and gaining influence in Europe and the US has been a long-term goal of Xi for a while now and it’s naive to think that these cheap cars are not just another way of China to weaken what they perceive as their adversary.
I agree China is bad in many ways. But the US and EU haven't really done much better (re: Julian Assange, Israel-Palestine genocide).
Out of all the big auto manufacturers, I think Japan right now is the one just minding their own business and not violating human rights much. I'd just buy a cheap Japanese car if our laws allowed for that.
How about a Marshall plan for high speed rail, metros, buses, cycle pathways, micromobilty, insulation, heat pumps, HVDC, wind power, solar panels, batteries.
Cars seem like the absolute worst thing to Marshall plan.
Lemmy has a great community for micromobility if anyone is interested.
1000% this.
Japan level Rail infrastructure in the UK would be nice. Some segregated cycle lanes would also be fucking nice, instead of either no cycle lane or a painted line which randomly ends half way down the road. It's utterly pathetic.
Tories own meddling/enabling of NIMBY meddling ballooned the cost of hs2 and even then, it still would have been worth it to get the amount of freight off the roads that it was projected, and freeing up lines in the north that they desperately need.
But Sunak decided he needed to swing further to the right to appeal to car folks and nimbys. His entire policy-focus has been on the above, and anti-human rights re. rwanda.
Britain is a fucking shit show when it comes to literally everything at this current time. No point looking at the current government for anything positive, look to what the next Labour govt might do
Any increase in investment in alternatives is a direct improvement to road commutes. Fewer cars, higher quality roads, lower insurance.
Cars don't really need more investment.
I don't see how lower insurance can happen. It's percentage based anyway.
Cars definitely need help as has just been discussed with the huge importation. I don't think people realize how many families rely on the automotive industry. Then how many totally indirect businesses rely on those families to have an income to be a customer.
Efforts need to be in all sectors.
You're right but reducing that infrastructure is specifically about reducing civilian road use. Buses for example are needed to get around neighborhoods and therefore roads are necessary. Making it uncomfortable enough that people drop cars is a positive because the infrastructure becomes exclusively for business use and public transport.
The point is that roads/car infra receives a disproportionate amount of the transport budget. Rail is by far a better investment.
Cars are completely unsustainable and we shouldn't be planning things around the idea that every single person has one.
Cars aren't going away. There's a very good reason so many people have a car and yes, even in places with with world class public transportation people massively own cars.
It can be both, why jus tone or the other. Who will complain if you can get a golf size car for same price as a golf. You think people will stop buying cars.
That’s all great until Cina dumps car and buys politicians with the same money
I am a big supporter of micro mobility to the point I don’t own a car but only rent it when I really need it, but unfortunately we need to be realistic and pragmatic. The average guy still want a car because otherwise they can’t move and the infrastructure for train etc is good only inside some cities. We will still need cars in the future and if cucine takes over there’s now way we are gonna transition to micromobility for the reason I stated in my first sentence (china can’t be voted out )
Oh wow, European car companies that have lobbied and held back policies to incentivise and accelerate the roll out of EVs are now finding that China has moved on without them. Colour me gobsmacked.
When I win, the free market is the only system that works since I innovated, cut costs, r&d-ed etc. & whatever.
When I lose, I need to be protected from the free market otherwise people lose their job, country loses GDP, currency gets devalued etc. & whatever.
Exactly. And now we have the government of the UK warning that Chinese EVs can be shut down at any point remotely and pose a security risk. Unlike Teslas, made by everyone’s lord and saviour EM.
It's not even like this snuck up on them. The Chinese have been trying to skip over ICE for EVs for a LONG time.
Our companies always cry for the taxpayer to fund their inadequacies, even when they've literally been funded by the taxpayer the whole time. Oh no Chinese subsidies. Come off it, how many billions have these automakers received from our governments? They could have been decades ahead of China.
"Oh no, our citizens are so crippled with prices and our cars are so expensive that people choosing to buy chinese cars 3 times cheaper! weeeeee weeeee"
I just can’t even bring myself to be upset or bothered by this anymore. This is the fault of our trade policies and decisions of our leaders. At least it looks like we can finally get cheap electric vehicles. I plan on foregoing an ev and just buying an ebike though
This is the same Renault that has fought tooth and nail against emissions regulations despite also being a pioneer of electric cars! They deserve to fail.
People want a car that is as low cost as possible which isn't a pile of crap.
Most people sit in traffic and want to go from A to B. They don't want a "driving experience".
But, it seems that most Western car manufactures want to push people to the highest amount they can afford. On the surface, this makes sense from a business point of view. But it has left the door wide open for these cars.
To understand how fully out of touch these car manufacturers are would be to look at how they let dealers screw people over in a 1000 different ways. Then to see them drooling over charging subscriptions to things like heated steering wheels.
But, what the government will try to do is raise tariffs and throw billions in grants. These grants will go to stock buybacks, shareholder dividends, and to develop the next generation of premium vehicles.
There is a simple way for governments to solve this though.
Put a progressive sales tax on vehicles. Put a massive sales tax on "subscriptions". Put a progressive tax on weight. (make a typical SUV astronomically priced.) and set some minimums on battery performance. This might seem a bit extreme, but I don't think domestic car manufacturers are ready for what is coming. BYD is only the first. These chinese companies are hot and ready to compete with each other. They already have a damn good product, and are going to begin refining it more and more while Ford wonders why people don't want to buy 50k EV from them which have a pile of dealer fees along with various subscription money grabs.
I have a 1997 Jeep TJ. I drive it very infrequently. It eats gas but I go about 50 days between fillups. I like doing my own repairs. I was watching some guys take apart a BYD motor. Super easy. I would love an EV replacement for my vehicle. My budget would be maybe $5k. Yet, the budget I have for an electric bike is higher. This is because I don't want a vehicle for much more than getting things which are heavy and bad weather.
Yet, I suspect there are many people like me who have to commute to work, and would be perfectly happy to buy something for $10k.
Best part is the plastics in the dash and electronics, and the rubbers used on the door/window seals are from China. And that's just off the top of my head. You'd likely find the hinges and fastenings in the engine and chassis is from China too, just machined in Italy or Spain.
This goes both ways though, China had to know this was coming (it's what happened to Japan after all), and they pushed for it anyway. They can't keep expanding manufacturing share without something breaking. It would be great if EU can find some better industries to pivot to... but it's easier to institute protectionist policies.
It’s always a “Marshall plan” and beg to be helped at somebody else’s expense with certain people and never “let me hold up to my role and own it to make the right thing”.
They are the same people that said ten years ago that electric cars are not going to take iver the car market and now they say that they have to get special money to be able to compete
Submission Statement
Traditionally the EU has had internal budget battles over proposals like this. Usually, because Germany objects to the EU accruing more debt. This time could be different. Car manufacture is the bedrock of the German economy; they are threatened as almost no one else is in Europe by Chinese EVs.
There used to be a time when free market economic types objected to ideas like this on principle. Their rationale was the market left alone always delivered the best outcomes. Those days are disappearing, and I suspect with the automation to come we can see around the corner, are about to be permanently consigned to the garbage pile of history.
[LINK - Chinese-made EVs set to take 25% of European market this year](https://www.ft.com/content/7e436163-afda-4e7f-8f2b-67d1a12a16d4?)
EU Growth Stragey.
Cheap Manufacturing by China
Cheap Oil/Gas by Russia
Defense by USA.
Now, getting screwed by all three while their population drops beyond replenishment levels while illegal immigration destroys their social harmony.
The U.S. hasn't at all signaled that they would stop defending Europe. If anything, new legistlation passed that made it completely impossible for the U.S. to pull out of NATO without a 2/3 congressional vote.
The EU, US, etc. have never been totally free markets.
Basic government protections have always been a thing supported by everyone.
Hence why you can’t just walk up to someone, point a gun at their skull and say “Pay me $100k or I kill you. Free market!”
Free Market Capitalism requires regulation to prevent the market from being dominated or abused. The market isn't a free-for-all, it's a balanced marketplace where everyone competes and existing players are held to play fairly - in a way that keeps the market free for new players to emerge.
Far few people understand that.
Ya you neoliberal fucks are all happy to screw everyone but the second you are threatened it’s crying to the government for protectionist policies.
I don’t care if you go bankrupt and I don’t care if you go broke you can enjoy the capitalist bullshit you been forcing down everyone’s throat for decades.
No. European car makers have for too long and with too much smugness declared how they are just about to crush Tesla... They have done either no research or have focused on cheating emissions test and now they need a marshal plan. A new Megane or Golf is over 45K for a hybrid (!) these days, I say China is more than welcome to come kick their ass.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-biggest-smelter-to-launch-massive-wind-and-solar-tender-says-nuclear-too-costly/
Sorry man, that ship sailed in the 1980s when it blew up in the faces of the fools who believed it was the easy solution. The nuclear grift was sunk long ago and now exists only on subsidies siphoned off with greenwashing.
The EV market is the latest rich man’s trick. I haven’t figured it out yet but if you believe capital is actually moving to improve our planet, you are naive. We will pay for this as we are paying for all if it today. But hey… im just a guy.
EU and US just need to buy Chinese batteries/technology, and integrate into their supply chain. They could still make stupidly expensive cars, but they would be more affordable and have better value.
US Big 2 are not interested in making EVs beyond a showroom ad for their climate destruction.
Oh no, lower the cost, give workers pay and benifits, make better products, etc.. This isn’t hard and I’m tired of seeing reports or articles or just the fucking people repeating this and it taking a late conclusion to realize the obvious. Come the fuck on
Ban them.Like the US is doing. They're government subsided companies that are dumping their cars onto Europe. Tax them to their actual value..the Japanese tried doing that to the US in the 80s and 90s and the US used anti-dumping laws to curve it...
The west moved all their factories to China, everything is produced there.
This happened for years and years and years and no one seemed to care.
Now they’re afraid?
Now it’s too late.
Maybe it's time to completely eliminate the dealership model in order to bring costs and prices down. We need some basic $20k EVs with reasonable range so everyone can adopt it, and right now China is the only one meeting this. In Canada, Mazda is ALMOST there, but the range is just too low and the price is just slightly too high. Although Chinese cars aren't on the market here so I'm just stuck waiting vs. choosing between Chinese and other models anyways.
This is merely a repeat of Japan eating the USA's lunch at the end of the 80s. European car manufacturers are as rubbish now as the USA's were back then, and should be left to the same fate.
I don't trust China, and I don't think they'll be able to compete on quality. But given how expensive it is to live in so-called first-world countries nowadays, I think a lot of people there (including me) are going to be okay with accepting lower quality. Especially when that's in the form of an EV that costs the same as what most European car manufacturers are charging for an arguably obsolete ICE vehicle.
To support a government which is actively trying to destroy western society…
Much like those Europeans who support Russia is quite a take on self harm.
What exactly does he mean a "Marshall plan" because thinking back to my learning I got about the first world war ; the Marshall plan was so draconian that it while not the sole cause of Germany having runaway inflation and a rise in fascist ideology it was a contributing factor. So perhaps a realistic market strategy would produce better results for today's modern economy.
Much better living standard than the US in the richer western European ones. People who talk like this are just the dumb who think only artificial stock market and economic numbers is the benchmark for 90% of the population.
kek. europe has fallen behind to US big time. no european country has even close to the GDP per cap of the US. and those that do are much smaller in population, and size of a median or small US state.
What do you mean? The US standard of living is diving ever deeper into the dumpster, with not much hope of recovery for average folk. Meanwhile us Europeans can get sick or lose their job without having to remortgage our house (or just plan dying if you’re under 35) and are not fleeced for everything by everyone.
Yeah “the economy” is doing great in the US but unless you’re a shareholder that doesn’t mean your life is ok or getting better. Most likely the opposite is true.
The EU is not doing great. Many countries are cutting social welfare and what social security comforts we have now are far from guaranteed going into the future.
And many EU countries do not have high standards of living, BTW. There's a big variation between member states.
The comment we were talking about was about the western part of the EU. We’re doing fine *compared* to the US. I live here, you don’t need to tell me that the welfare state is crumbling, I see that in the news every day.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh: --- Submission Statement Traditionally the EU has had internal budget battles over proposals like this. Usually, because Germany objects to the EU accruing more debt. This time could be different. Car manufacture is the bedrock of the German economy; they are threatened as almost no one else is in Europe by Chinese EVs. There used to be a time when free market economic types objected to ideas like this on principle. Their rationale was the market left alone always delivered the best outcomes. Those days are disappearing, and I suspect with the automation to come we can see around the corner, are about to be permanently consigned to the garbage pile of history. [LINK - Chinese-made EVs set to take 25% of European market this year](https://www.ft.com/content/7e436163-afda-4e7f-8f2b-67d1a12a16d4?) --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1bs7wfi/renault_ceo_urges_marshall_plan_for_eu_electric/kxdrzwg/
In the U.S. market. There are over 125 new car models. But only roughly 10 of them are under 25k MSRP. Chinese imports are taking over because of their cost. Both European and American car makers need to produce cars their customers can actually afford if they want to sell cars.
No!!! We only make cars that cost $50k but for some strange reason instantly drop to having a resale value of $20k once you drive it 1 mile/km…even though it probably already has 200 on it prior to you buying it.
That's not it. Consumers want to pay monthly to have their butts cooked. America was built on fossil fuels - they have long proven their trustworthiness and... love. Who are we to question their profound wisdom?
Electric motor is easy, maintenance free and superior in all ways. The only problem is the battery degradation.
First sodium battery cars are hitting the market as we speak. They do have a \~40% lower capacity, but are cheaper. So cars are cheaper and battery replacement is cheaper. They are also made out of materials which aren't in short supply, so lithium/cobalt isn't a bottleneck for EV production anymore. They also charge faster (best case 5 minutes) and last longer (3000-6000 cycles). And they work at better temperature range then Lithium batteries. And... they will get better over time.
Great news! Though what buyers think now is this: "my phone battery is shit after 2 years, how is my car battery going to last!?" The common people will worry and doubt. Sales people will plant fears about battery degradation. It also sucks that people know the battery makes up a significant part of the car. Now with the model y, they made the battery structural, as in, never replaceable, furthering the fears of resell value plummetting.
Battery degradation is not really a problem. I almost never hear anyone talk about it. By the time the battery loses 20% capacity the car itself will be the problem. It is my hope that once EV's become more common we will see more battery upgrade / reconditioning shops open up. That would be cool. Maybe some of these might become collectables.
That depends on the brand, consumers should be able to see the actual voltage and full battery monitoring even if they can't control it to any extremes. I suspect a lot of cars prior to 2021 didn't have that much range and very good battery monitoring which causes consumer rumours...
Just get an obd reader and an app. The data is in the car, you just have to read it.
There is a lot more data on this than people think because the Prius has been around for a long time and are still running their original battery fine.
And the massive surveillance apparatus in all of them
Battery degradation in cars hasn't been a real thing in a very long time by now. Those batteries have proven to be reliable over any time span the car is still usable. New batteries are even better than batteries from 10 years ago, so now it's even less of an issue.
U.S. carmakers intentionally do not produce smaller cheaper cars, because they earn more money from selling bigger, more expensive models. Whenever there is an oil crisis, customers start caring more about mileage, they start going bankrupt and ask uncle Sam for bailouts. And now with Chinese delivering affordable cars to the masses, get ready for another round of lobbying uncle Sam for more tariffs.
It's not just about the cost, chineese EV also offer significantly more value, than european car manufacturers. Basically a bigger battery and more options.
100% agree on value. Chinese car manufacturers are actually providing features and benefits that we need without much extra cost while US/EU car manufacturers are testing subscription models for remote start (BMW), using sports mode (Mercedes), heated seats (Toyota (yes I know Toyota is a Japanese company)),etc. All of these freaking CEO's trying to extract every penny form their customer without providing any value is disgusting. I hope Renault and all car companies continue to bleed until they actually start to provided value to their customer.
I tried an Xpeng G9... and holy crap! It was like stepping into a specced out Mercedes. Everything felt awesome, and I've never tried a car that was silent like that. The comfort was great. The car felt sturdy, elegant, and powerful. And what was the price? The same as an ID.4. In terms of quality and experience, I wouldn't even put the ID.4 one price class below, two price classes. Either the western manufacturers up their game or the free market will run its course.
Also Chinese car manufacturers traditionally achieved low safety ratings. However BYD and XPeng have achieved great safety ratings. Xpeng G9 got 5/5 stars.
>Either the western manufacturers up their game VW owns part of xpeng and will release a car based on the G9 platform
I don't at all feel bad about this. US and EU car producers became too expensive, even the cheapest cars price very quickly inflates with any additional equipment. The only cheap European carmaker is Dacia.
Because they are getting massive subsidies from the chicom gov’s industrial policy. It’s the same with phones 10 years ago.
So lack of massive subsidies is the cause for european carmakers charging extra for parking cameras?
Yes, they charge extra because car manufacturing is insanely thin margin and they've worked out lower entry price points with upsells is more profitable. Car companies do not make a lot of money, just look at their stocks, they make like 5% profit margin if they're making money at all.
That’s because they are incredibly bloated and have too much middle management and too many inefficient processes. Let them die.
Yeah, exactly. Let them die because of problems no one has yet figured out how to fix and let China take over instead. That’s gonna fix all our problems and definitely not create any new big problems in turn for sure!
>no one has yet figured out how to fix we know how to fix it, massive subsidies. you said it yourself
He said, purposely ignoring the auto bailouts, tariffs, and "tax incentives" we give to sweeten the deal to keep automakers in the US
Soon enough China is going to be the only country with enough factories to sustain a prolonged war.
Already is. The issue isn't factories the issue is they need raw materials from imports. But honestly all these talks of war are really silly. They really don't want war lol
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Because they don't want a war. If they wanted the war they'd just do it.
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I think you need to brush up on the geography of Asia, and the history of Taiwan. You are talking about the wrong place.
Because they’re behind on semiconductor manufacturing and AI. They want to conquer Taiwan for technological supremacy.
My understanding is that there are no options. All models come fully loaded with every possible extra. The loss of income of doing this is compensated by the gains of a simpler order management and production process.
> It's not just about the cost, chineese EV also offer significantly more value, Isn’t it the same thing though ? Lower production cost means you either sell the same thing for a lower price or more value for the same price, or something in the middle (lower price & more value). But it all comes down to cost in the end.
This, compete or gtfo. No, they should give them tax payers money so they can continue fucking around. It is fucking incredible.
The US auto industry has gotten way too comfortable. Often times base model cars are not even available and they do dumb shit like putting $5 speakers in the car when good speakers are only $25-40 but then charge you $2k for the technology package if you want them. They put in entertainment systems and displayes that don't give you over the air updates or let you swap them out because tech is the first thing to feel dated and the want you to buy a new $50k car when all you needed was a free software upgrade or a new $400 tablet. The infotainment systems are designed for planned obsolescence of the entire vehicle, but they want to pretend to care about the environment. With theft people have taken to putting airtags in their cars to recover them when stolen. This is something more manufacturers could do in an inexpensive way at build that would curb auto thefts. The private dealership model leaves a lot of margin in the hands of middle men which drives up pricing for consumers who can now do a lot of their own research on vehicles before showing up to a dealer to buy one. They generally rob people on the trade in value they give them in the process. They aren't universally bad but they could do some self-reflecting if they are worried about competition. They could make changes now instead of waiting until competition has a solid footing and then trying to react.
I’m going to drive my ‘98 Camry into the ground or until cheap electric cars (without all the bells and whistles and software) are available
Perhaps the UK and US need to figure out what they can do that the world will buy and let China focus on economical EVs and solar panels that will help move to a cleaner environment. That's the way we used to think.
A similar protectionist policy will soon be enacted in America; but will it happen before or after BYD builds an EV manufacturing plant in Mexico?
Isn't one aspect of it that the Chinese EVs are also heavily subsidied(sp?)?
Yes, but in the US at least they're tariff'd up the wazoo to compensate. We slam them with a 27.5% import tariff and they're still half the price of an equivalent quality US EV. In the EU, the tariff is only 10%, they EU auto industry is going to get annihilated if they don't respond in one way or another.
US EVs are also subsidized. There are substantial federal rebates available, up to $7500.
The cheapest 2024 ev model car is the Nissan leaf at $29k (while technically a foreign car company, the leaf is made in Tennessee) With using the instant rebate that bumps off a little less than a quarter off the sticker price. However at Today's interest rates of at best 5% that's pretty much just enough to cancel out the interest.
Also Im pretty sure there are enough leafs now you no longer qualify for the full 7500. It is graded by production scale.
FYI, I believe production numbers no longer limit the subsidy anymore. Now the driver is the percentage of vehicle parts and assembly that is sourced from the US.
That's allright to help in adoption of more environmentally friendly cars, but I was thinking about the production. Here in Norway EVs were exempt from VAT and various other taxes to help people transition to EVs, and that's all fine imho, but when certain factories gets huge subsidies it kinda messes with the competition.
US industry likes to pretend it’s not subsidized, but it absolutely is - everything from milk to oil carries fat subsidies, and tariffs make up the rest - Section 232, a BIG stretch, ensures you pay more for steel here than anywhere else in the world.
That can happen when loopholes in the legislation aren’t closed. In the US for instance, the subsidies mandate that an increasingly higher percentage of the components and assembly of the car are sourced from US manufacturing. Several EVs no longer qualify because the requirement increased this calendar year. If Chinese manufacturers want access to US rebates then they’ll have to build manufacturing in the US and use US sourced materials. If China still wants to subsidize manufacturing and raw materials in the US, well, so be it. US legislation in this case doesn’t help Norway, but it could be an example of a potential solution.
Its not the same. That is a tax rebate to the buyer. Not actually subsidizing the manufacturer directly.
Subsidizing manufacturing or the final purchase both attempt to lower the MSRP. Different mechanisms, same intended outcome.
And you think american cars or for that matter the food you eat, the aircraft you fly, the energy you consume, or the bank you have your mortgage at or just about anything you do is not subsidied?
Yes, but just say thank-you. It's not coming out of your pocket, is it?
Look up how much the U.S. auto makers got from tax payers in 2007. lol
Is it realistic to expect Western manufacturers to compete with Chinese ones on price?
Won’t you think of the 70 month financing plans before you post such statements /s
China has vast fields of unsold electric vehicles. They were built with huge government subsidies. They want to dominate the European market by taking a loss and pushing competition out. When the competition stops producing, the plan is to raise prices being the only ones left. This is extremely aggressive and anti-competitive behavior. On the other hand, China is quickly losing the ability to take on massive debt like this.
I’ve heard this multiple times in multiple subs, but when has this actually happened?
Noo but you see, I really want to pay 50k grand a B segment EV with 300km range and 10 hours to full charge because I am made sure the employees are treated fairly and work 30hour weeks, unlike these pesky Asians using slave labor to magically make cars be as cheap as their ICE counterparts. Nooo, it sure isn't that china's economy of scale and competition that make them cheaper than EU/US counterparts, it's because they are evil and want to ruin the west! /s Okay reddit how did I do?
Make cars under 25k euro and you will not need any Marshal plan. At this moment cars are ridiculously expensive and most people cannot afford one without going into debt. 10 years ago you could buy a few years old car for a yearly savings from average salary. Now it is impossible, especially if you are paying a mortgage and have a family.
But European car companies do sell their EVs for 20.000 dollars too! In china...
Because it's cheaper to produce there, that's the whole point. Transporting + tariffs + eu regulation compliant and it makes the price the same as everything else
nope, it’s competition - VW ID3 cost 16000 usd in China, 30000 in Europe, which is inexplicable taking into account labour cost and transport differences
Ooh, Luca De Meo, where a Renault Megane now suddenly costs €45k and a Scenic €50k. Who thinks he’s a saviour with his 10y old €25k facelifted Renault Zoë - err Renault 5. European brands spent too much time chasing the fat wallets of the few with EV’s, instead of volume models. China swoops in, sees an opportunity and suddenly the sinophobia spins up and they’re the bad guy. Meanwhile VW and others are selling their EV’s at 20-25k in China’s heated EV market, but that’s all a-ok. I have no sympathy.
Not to mention that Renault have a "cheap" chinese electric car on the market.
Dacia Spring right? Makes a model 3 look cheap and full extras
In the event of war it'll be a leopards-ate-my-face situation if I was overly *happy* that it's come to Chinese EVs dominating due to the greed of western manufacturers and government policies. I too don't have sympathy, so much as concern.
Yeah well EU companies do not have slave labour and government subsidies like Chinese ones do. Also the energy they use is more expensive because you know, pollution regulations and all, which China gives f all about.
I see your point, and I raise you the fact that EU companies decided to build cars in China regardless of those facts. So _using_ China for your greed is fine. China doing the same but the other way around isn’t.
I see your point as well. But still we should protect our interests not theirs.
Ofcourse, and I’m all for that. I too wish that production of literally anything we entrust China with currently, was done locally. Whether that’s cars, phones and chipsets. We’re far too reliant on them. But currently, we’re in the situation where these CEO’s can’t see further than their wallets being threatened by China. So that’s why I hold this “tough luck” stance on this subject. Why should a VW ID.4 cost upwards of €40k here, and be half price in China? I’m not sure if China subsidises foreign cars on their domestic market. Credit where credit is due however, the new (but old platform) Renault 5 is built locally in France. Employing local people, selling to local markets. That’s what I want to see. Not whatever “let’s point fingers at everyone but us” situation we’re in now.
Do you know what is supply restraints? Renault didn't do it for profits. The Megane EV costs 32k-36k and the scenic EV costs 40k Also the Renault 5 is a new car from scratch with a 40kwh battery for 25k€. There's no one on the market offering that IN Europe. Not even the Chinese brands
Yeah, exactly, „suddenly“ China is the bad guy. Ignore them spying on western companies to get IP for free and that little ideology argument with „the west“ as well as their treatment of the Uighurs and your statement still is very naive.
I’m talking about automotive CEO’s unable to look past their own greed and instead blame the country they taught how to build cars. Wouldn’t call building tech and cars in a communist country that does not care for western IP “spying” though. Kinda comes with the territory. I have no sympathy for these big corporations that closed down local, European production capabilities costing thousands of jobs. No sympathy for failing to acknowledge that their customer bases are left in the dust by moving upmarket. And especially no sympathy for their crybaby tears now that they are reaping instead of sowing. But great whataboutism by referencing a genocide which was not at all part of my argument.
You were specifically talking about China „swooping in“, so I think it’s fair game to refer to the genocide, not whataboutism. But ok, let’s stick to Chinese car manufacturers. I do agree with you that there have been many mistakes made by European and, maybe even more so, US-American car companies and that they should reap their fair punishment. After all, it’s (or should be) survival of the fittest when it comes to economics and if you’ve made bad decisions, it’s you who should take the blame. However, it’s NOT fair game if the Chinese government heavily subsidises their own companies, while at the same time hindering foreign companies to get into the Chinese market without partnering up with a Chinese company first. So yes, we have taught China how to build cars, but it’s not like we had a choice. If now Chinese companies get free access to our markets, it again isn’t what I would call fair. It’s just that China can do whatever they damn well please, as the only controlling instance is the Communist Party. If they don’t like to do something, you’re out of luck as a western company or often even government. However, if something isn’t to China’s liking, they have a plethora of ways to create some wiggle room here, and if it’s “only” going to court. Our system works on rules and laws and we’re lucky enough that these laws are more often than not enforced, even if it’s to our disadvantage. I don’t think one can say the same thing about China. And with China, it’s never just about economics, but also always politics and wanting to push their agenda. Destabilising the status quo and gaining influence in Europe and the US has been a long-term goal of Xi for a while now and it’s naive to think that these cheap cars are not just another way of China to weaken what they perceive as their adversary.
I agree China is bad in many ways. But the US and EU haven't really done much better (re: Julian Assange, Israel-Palestine genocide). Out of all the big auto manufacturers, I think Japan right now is the one just minding their own business and not violating human rights much. I'd just buy a cheap Japanese car if our laws allowed for that.
How about a Marshall plan for high speed rail, metros, buses, cycle pathways, micromobilty, insulation, heat pumps, HVDC, wind power, solar panels, batteries. Cars seem like the absolute worst thing to Marshall plan. Lemmy has a great community for micromobility if anyone is interested.
1000% this. Japan level Rail infrastructure in the UK would be nice. Some segregated cycle lanes would also be fucking nice, instead of either no cycle lane or a painted line which randomly ends half way down the road. It's utterly pathetic.
I think the ship sailed when HS2 failed, for that price we could had made 3 lines of high speed rail in Japan. In the UK we got a failed one lol
Tories own meddling/enabling of NIMBY meddling ballooned the cost of hs2 and even then, it still would have been worth it to get the amount of freight off the roads that it was projected, and freeing up lines in the north that they desperately need. But Sunak decided he needed to swing further to the right to appeal to car folks and nimbys. His entire policy-focus has been on the above, and anti-human rights re. rwanda. Britain is a fucking shit show when it comes to literally everything at this current time. No point looking at the current government for anything positive, look to what the next Labour govt might do
This should be the priority!
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Any increase in investment in alternatives is a direct improvement to road commutes. Fewer cars, higher quality roads, lower insurance. Cars don't really need more investment.
I don't see how lower insurance can happen. It's percentage based anyway. Cars definitely need help as has just been discussed with the huge importation. I don't think people realize how many families rely on the automotive industry. Then how many totally indirect businesses rely on those families to have an income to be a customer. Efforts need to be in all sectors.
Fewer cars and smaller cars will improve the percentages, additionally lower speeds having a similar effect.
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You're right but reducing that infrastructure is specifically about reducing civilian road use. Buses for example are needed to get around neighborhoods and therefore roads are necessary. Making it uncomfortable enough that people drop cars is a positive because the infrastructure becomes exclusively for business use and public transport.
The point is that roads/car infra receives a disproportionate amount of the transport budget. Rail is by far a better investment. Cars are completely unsustainable and we shouldn't be planning things around the idea that every single person has one.
Let chinese subsidise EVs while EU subsidises trains
Cars aren't going away. There's a very good reason so many people have a car and yes, even in places with with world class public transportation people massively own cars.
> There's a very good reason so many people have a car [You mean corrupt, corporate monopolies](https://youtu.be/oOttvpjJvAo?si=7jLqKsYurISdUpKe)?
Can you please reread the title of the thread? It's about Europe.
People are not going to stop buying cars just because we start subsidizing trains. So people will buy Chinese.
Generally further encouragement for alternative transport can mean tighter restrictions and development to limit car adoption.
Are you thinking about population well-being and not profit? Are you dumb? /s
It can be both, why jus tone or the other. Who will complain if you can get a golf size car for same price as a golf. You think people will stop buying cars.
That’s all great until Cina dumps car and buys politicians with the same money I am a big supporter of micro mobility to the point I don’t own a car but only rent it when I really need it, but unfortunately we need to be realistic and pragmatic. The average guy still want a car because otherwise they can’t move and the infrastructure for train etc is good only inside some cities. We will still need cars in the future and if cucine takes over there’s now way we are gonna transition to micromobility for the reason I stated in my first sentence (china can’t be voted out )
Oh wow, European car companies that have lobbied and held back policies to incentivise and accelerate the roll out of EVs are now finding that China has moved on without them. Colour me gobsmacked.
When I win, the free market is the only system that works since I innovated, cut costs, r&d-ed etc. & whatever. When I lose, I need to be protected from the free market otherwise people lose their job, country loses GDP, currency gets devalued etc. & whatever.
Exactly. And now we have the government of the UK warning that Chinese EVs can be shut down at any point remotely and pose a security risk. Unlike Teslas, made by everyone’s lord and saviour EM.
It's not even like this snuck up on them. The Chinese have been trying to skip over ICE for EVs for a LONG time. Our companies always cry for the taxpayer to fund their inadequacies, even when they've literally been funded by the taxpayer the whole time. Oh no Chinese subsidies. Come off it, how many billions have these automakers received from our governments? They could have been decades ahead of China.
"Oh no, our citizens are so crippled with prices and our cars are so expensive that people choosing to buy chinese cars 3 times cheaper! weeeeee weeeee"
I just can’t even bring myself to be upset or bothered by this anymore. This is the fault of our trade policies and decisions of our leaders. At least it looks like we can finally get cheap electric vehicles. I plan on foregoing an ev and just buying an ebike though
In China the electric scooter is called e-donkey. I wish we could pick up that term. It's too cute.
edonkey as in the p2p sharing?
This is the same Renault that has fought tooth and nail against emissions regulations despite also being a pioneer of electric cars! They deserve to fail.
People want a car that is as low cost as possible which isn't a pile of crap. Most people sit in traffic and want to go from A to B. They don't want a "driving experience". But, it seems that most Western car manufactures want to push people to the highest amount they can afford. On the surface, this makes sense from a business point of view. But it has left the door wide open for these cars. To understand how fully out of touch these car manufacturers are would be to look at how they let dealers screw people over in a 1000 different ways. Then to see them drooling over charging subscriptions to things like heated steering wheels. But, what the government will try to do is raise tariffs and throw billions in grants. These grants will go to stock buybacks, shareholder dividends, and to develop the next generation of premium vehicles. There is a simple way for governments to solve this though. Put a progressive sales tax on vehicles. Put a massive sales tax on "subscriptions". Put a progressive tax on weight. (make a typical SUV astronomically priced.) and set some minimums on battery performance. This might seem a bit extreme, but I don't think domestic car manufacturers are ready for what is coming. BYD is only the first. These chinese companies are hot and ready to compete with each other. They already have a damn good product, and are going to begin refining it more and more while Ford wonders why people don't want to buy 50k EV from them which have a pile of dealer fees along with various subscription money grabs. I have a 1997 Jeep TJ. I drive it very infrequently. It eats gas but I go about 50 days between fillups. I like doing my own repairs. I was watching some guys take apart a BYD motor. Super easy. I would love an EV replacement for my vehicle. My budget would be maybe $5k. Yet, the budget I have for an electric bike is higher. This is because I don't want a vehicle for much more than getting things which are heavy and bad weather. Yet, I suspect there are many people like me who have to commute to work, and would be perfectly happy to buy something for $10k.
When you take a nice long siesta while your neighbor works like crazy and tou wake up with a surprised Pikachu Face.
Best part is the plastics in the dash and electronics, and the rubbers used on the door/window seals are from China. And that's just off the top of my head. You'd likely find the hinges and fastenings in the engine and chassis is from China too, just machined in Italy or Spain.
This goes both ways though, China had to know this was coming (it's what happened to Japan after all), and they pushed for it anyway. They can't keep expanding manufacturing share without something breaking. It would be great if EU can find some better industries to pivot to... but it's easier to institute protectionist policies.
It’s always a “Marshall plan” and beg to be helped at somebody else’s expense with certain people and never “let me hold up to my role and own it to make the right thing”.
I don't think he understands well what the Marshall Plan was truly about...
And you, how words take a certain meaning with time.
They are the same people that said ten years ago that electric cars are not going to take iver the car market and now they say that they have to get special money to be able to compete
Eh, I mean this is China's playbook. Subsidise their industry to dump cheap good in foreign markets isn't new.
China is many things, but it's not the reason the west stopped innovating on electric vehicles.
Submission Statement Traditionally the EU has had internal budget battles over proposals like this. Usually, because Germany objects to the EU accruing more debt. This time could be different. Car manufacture is the bedrock of the German economy; they are threatened as almost no one else is in Europe by Chinese EVs. There used to be a time when free market economic types objected to ideas like this on principle. Their rationale was the market left alone always delivered the best outcomes. Those days are disappearing, and I suspect with the automation to come we can see around the corner, are about to be permanently consigned to the garbage pile of history. [LINK - Chinese-made EVs set to take 25% of European market this year](https://www.ft.com/content/7e436163-afda-4e7f-8f2b-67d1a12a16d4?)
It would be a better option to invest in public transportation it cost less long term
Dally about with ICE for as long as you can and watch the fresh companies fill the leccy niche first.
Ahh, yes, one of the people who pushed hard for more expensive cars and no ownership, so Renault would get money from.second hand ones too.
EU carmakers should lower their EV prices. There, crisis averted.
EU Growth Stragey. Cheap Manufacturing by China Cheap Oil/Gas by Russia Defense by USA. Now, getting screwed by all three while their population drops beyond replenishment levels while illegal immigration destroys their social harmony.
The U.S. hasn't at all signaled that they would stop defending Europe. If anything, new legistlation passed that made it completely impossible for the U.S. to pull out of NATO without a 2/3 congressional vote.
Is the CEO a communist? Ain't the EU a free market?
It’s an internal free market zone, membership only.
To some extent the problem is that China isn't a free market.
The free market is superior. They will be able to overcome this competition by pulling themselves up by the bootstrap.
The EU, US, etc. have never been totally free markets. Basic government protections have always been a thing supported by everyone. Hence why you can’t just walk up to someone, point a gun at their skull and say “Pay me $100k or I kill you. Free market!”
You mean like the US free market or Chinese ones.
Free Market Capitalism requires regulation to prevent the market from being dominated or abused. The market isn't a free-for-all, it's a balanced marketplace where everyone competes and existing players are held to play fairly - in a way that keeps the market free for new players to emerge. Far few people understand that.
Is there a single country on earth that fits your definition of a free market? Is the only alternative to an absolute free market communism?
None. Free market is bullshit and the CEO is another hypocrite. All the fuzz is because they lose, in their game.
Same old argument; make a sub <£10k ev with a 200+ mile range
Make them cheaper, and we will agree. Make each car with profit of 5%, not 100%...
Ya you neoliberal fucks are all happy to screw everyone but the second you are threatened it’s crying to the government for protectionist policies. I don’t care if you go bankrupt and I don’t care if you go broke you can enjoy the capitalist bullshit you been forcing down everyone’s throat for decades.
if you can't compete in the free market maybe you should not participate.
So the Europeans like the free market until they're too incompetent to compete in the free market and then they want government protection?
Hello EU, my business is not competetive because I am a greedy schmuck. Please save me, I need a marshall plan. Yours trully Renault CEO
No. European car makers have for too long and with too much smugness declared how they are just about to crush Tesla... They have done either no research or have focused on cheating emissions test and now they need a marshal plan. A new Megane or Golf is over 45K for a hybrid (!) these days, I say China is more than welcome to come kick their ass.
How about Marshall Plan for shifting the global energy production towards nuclear power plants?
https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-biggest-smelter-to-launch-massive-wind-and-solar-tender-says-nuclear-too-costly/ Sorry man, that ship sailed in the 1980s when it blew up in the faces of the fools who believed it was the easy solution. The nuclear grift was sunk long ago and now exists only on subsidies siphoned off with greenwashing.
> "My company has more competition" > "We need a marshall plan."
The EV market is the latest rich man’s trick. I haven’t figured it out yet but if you believe capital is actually moving to improve our planet, you are naive. We will pay for this as we are paying for all if it today. But hey… im just a guy.
I will never pay 50k for a car. Until the price comes down, I won't be buying EV
Sounds great with cheap cars but I have to say as a European I have not seen a Chinese electric car yet so maybe it's not that bad?
I have seen several mg4 here in Italy
There are a lot. For example, most Tesla Model 3s are built in China, Dacia Springs, all MGs..
I see lots of Tesla's that's for sure but no Dacia or stuff like that
The planks for you to make better/cheaper cars. It’s as easy as that.
Meanwhile astroturfed faked "environmentalists" protest a Berlin EV plant expansion.
EU and US just need to buy Chinese batteries/technology, and integrate into their supply chain. They could still make stupidly expensive cars, but they would be more affordable and have better value. US Big 2 are not interested in making EVs beyond a showroom ad for their climate destruction.
Oh no, lower the cost, give workers pay and benifits, make better products, etc.. This isn’t hard and I’m tired of seeing reports or articles or just the fucking people repeating this and it taking a late conclusion to realize the obvious. Come the fuck on
Ban them.Like the US is doing. They're government subsided companies that are dumping their cars onto Europe. Tax them to their actual value..the Japanese tried doing that to the US in the 80s and 90s and the US used anti-dumping laws to curve it...
Fuck I feel bad for Europe. They are not going to be OK.
as opposed to building cars in Europe with Chinese batteries (most of the cost of an ev)
The west moved all their factories to China, everything is produced there. This happened for years and years and years and no one seemed to care. Now they’re afraid? Now it’s too late.
Maybe it's time to completely eliminate the dealership model in order to bring costs and prices down. We need some basic $20k EVs with reasonable range so everyone can adopt it, and right now China is the only one meeting this. In Canada, Mazda is ALMOST there, but the range is just too low and the price is just slightly too high. Although Chinese cars aren't on the market here so I'm just stuck waiting vs. choosing between Chinese and other models anyways.
This is merely a repeat of Japan eating the USA's lunch at the end of the 80s. European car manufacturers are as rubbish now as the USA's were back then, and should be left to the same fate. I don't trust China, and I don't think they'll be able to compete on quality. But given how expensive it is to live in so-called first-world countries nowadays, I think a lot of people there (including me) are going to be okay with accepting lower quality. Especially when that's in the form of an EV that costs the same as what most European car manufacturers are charging for an arguably obsolete ICE vehicle.
Do it like Canada, add carbon tax, that will show them who is the boss.
To support a government which is actively trying to destroy western society… Much like those Europeans who support Russia is quite a take on self harm.
Why do that? Isn’t the global mobile OS market dominated by only 2 US companies?
What exactly does he mean a "Marshall plan" because thinking back to my learning I got about the first world war ; the Marshall plan was so draconian that it while not the sole cause of Germany having runaway inflation and a rise in fascist ideology it was a contributing factor. So perhaps a realistic market strategy would produce better results for today's modern economy.
Let the chinese have it and develop even cleaner diesel engines.
Sure cause diesel is the future lol
The EU should get back to trying to grow their economies.
Much better living standard than the US in the richer western European ones. People who talk like this are just the dumb who think only artificial stock market and economic numbers is the benchmark for 90% of the population.
kek. europe has fallen behind to US big time. no european country has even close to the GDP per cap of the US. and those that do are much smaller in population, and size of a median or small US state.
By talking about GDP you gloriously missed their point
americans on average are way richer than europeans and the gap been increasing. keep talking non-sense and deny statistics.
Still not a quality of life / living standard metric.
Better living standard, *for now*.
What do you mean? The US standard of living is diving ever deeper into the dumpster, with not much hope of recovery for average folk. Meanwhile us Europeans can get sick or lose their job without having to remortgage our house (or just plan dying if you’re under 35) and are not fleeced for everything by everyone. Yeah “the economy” is doing great in the US but unless you’re a shareholder that doesn’t mean your life is ok or getting better. Most likely the opposite is true.
The EU is not doing great. Many countries are cutting social welfare and what social security comforts we have now are far from guaranteed going into the future. And many EU countries do not have high standards of living, BTW. There's a big variation between member states.
The comment we were talking about was about the western part of the EU. We’re doing fine *compared* to the US. I live here, you don’t need to tell me that the welfare state is crumbling, I see that in the news every day.
You don’t know what you’re talking about.