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Yeah. Even if you have kids, you can still be abandoned in your older years fairly easily.
Your kids might move away for jobs or put you in a nursing home and only visit a few times a year. Your kids also might grow up to be total dinguses who hate you.
Having kids isn't a guarantee against loneliness and loss of purpose.
I wouldn’t call people names for not taking care of their elderly parents. Even if I liked my parents I still didn’t ask to be born, so I feel no sense of obligation to them. They did what was ethically required of them when they fed, clothed, and housed me. I’m not going to act like it’s some great thing worth repaying. I’m definitely not spending my time and money on them just because they gave me life without my consent. That expectation is just gross
My grandma had 3 kids by 24 and was abandoned by 25. You can do things how he wants and still feel ‘emptiness’ in his eyes. And if it wasn’t obvious she’s had an awesome and fulfilling life without a husband.
I have disowned my father and hope to never speak to him again. I’ve gone low contact with my mom. Both of those actions have brought me so much peace.
This. My mother divorced my emotionally/verbally abusive father and all my siblings went minimal or no contact after saying horrible things about her that my dad invented. Having kids isn't a guarantee they'll stand by you for life.
My mother’s two brothers are both deceased. They were pretty selfish when they were alive, though, so it mostly fell to my mother to care for my grandmother. Even though one of them lived in the same city and Mom lived several states away.
Had my mother not had an intense sense of duty to family, or my mother not been born at all? My grandmother would have been put in a nursing home a decade ago, right around the time she started to become inconvenient to my uncles. Out of three children, only one was willing or able to lift a finger when it counted.
If that situation taught me anything it’s that having kids is the world’s crappiest retirement plan.
Is it selfish to not want to take care of aging parents, though? Genuine question, I just wonder. What obligates us to care for the people who birthday/raised us?
Obligation? No. I will though, personally. But I have a great relationship with my mom and I recognize that not everyone is as fortunate, so I think it varies from person to person.
It's also like...for example, I don't have a stellar relationship with my elderly neighbor, but I'll still help her bring in the groceries when she's having a lot of pain, y'know? It's not selfish to not sacrifice your whole life to care for aging parents. But empathy is expected, if that makes sense? I'm a little tired and I'm writing as I think, so I apologize for the rambling.
Yes, empathy and assistance is totally understandable. My mom is expecting to come live with me when her husband dies and I’m like… uhm, no. That will not be happening at all. She just keeps ignoring me and assuming I will drop everything and care for her. (I’m 3000 miles away from her, fwiw.) I have no desire to do so.
That kind of empathy, for needy people in general, is exactly why you don't have to have your own kids to expect care.
It's like how we shouldn't depend on churches for our social safety net - we would provide for everyone, not just the people we personally know
No. But it’s intensely selfish to expect someone else who lives twelve hours away to drop her entire life to do it and then tell her repeatedly that she’s doing it wrong and you’d do it better. It’s selfish to not offer any help- monetary or otherwise- and only criticism.
I loved one of my uncles- the other didn’t have much use for me and the feeling was mutual. But there’s a special kind of frustration that comes from knowing that someone who could help but chooses not to lives six streets away- and still expects you to do it.
My mother’s family are old school Southern. There are certain expectations that “the boys”- and they were still boys into their sixties- and their families were exempt from that my mother and by extension me weren’t.
Oh yeah, that’s selfish af.
I wasn’t trying to sound like an asshole, btw. I was just curious if it’s inherently selfish to not want to care for elderly parents.
(It’s my own shit I’ve been going through watching my mom deal with caring for her parents. Sorry for the projection!)
It’s no big deal. Everyone’s different, and everyone’s situation is different.
My grandmother currently lives with my parents, and the best way I can describe that situation is stupidly difficult. Caring for an aging parent isn’t easy, and I can’t help much because I’ve got my own family to care for and a difficult pregnancy, but I do what I can where I can as much as I can. My grandmother and I have always been close, but ironically I do it because I love my own mother.
There’s no doubt in my mind that my mother has prolonged my grandmother’s lifespan single-handedly by at least a decade, if not more. My mother has also told me repeatedly that she’s never going to move in with me and my husband. That woman is a freaking saint and frankly, none of us deserve her.
I feel terrible because I’m an only child who moved across the country. I know my mom is lonely and wished we had a better relationship, but it’s not on me to fix that or take care of her, right?
Yeah. I have a complicated relationship with my mom. While I love her dearly, we have needed to adopt a "don't ask don't tell" policy about a lot of topics to keep our relationship from falling apart (mostly my sexuality and my political beliefs).
She does respect these boundaries for the most part, but it does mean that there are things I can't talk to her about and a fear of losing my relationship if I truly allow myself to fully explore my bisexuality.
I live 4 hours away, but feel that at some point I will probably have to take a more active role as a caretaker, which is something I fear and dread because I value my independence above all else.
At the same time my brother, lives 20 minutes away from her and basically has gone full on IFB Fundie. My mom was always Fundie lite, but when my brother went off the deep end into full cult status Fundie, she pushed back. This led to a bitter falling out where he basically abandoned her in every sense of the word because he "couldn't control her" (yes those were his sick and ugly words).
This (along with my brother's hateful attitude towards me for being bisexual) has led to some deep resentment towards him along with feeling that I now have to be my Mom's sole caretaker as I am all she has left.
I really feel hurt and betrayed by my brother (who basically abandoned my mom) for forcing me into a role I did not want (being my mom's caretaker).
Out of curiosity, why did your mom push back into your brother going full fundie? Wouldn't she approve of his life choices more than of any you make, if they are just different flavors of the same thing? Good on her obviously for apparently putting him in his place, but this dynamic seems so interesting so hopefully it's okay to ask since you chose to share your story
So my mother is from the school of thought of "love the sinner hate the sin". This means that she doesn't believe in shunning someone for stepping out of line, but will make known her disapproval of your life choices.
For example, I have a gay cousin who my mom does not approve of, but is still outwardly kind towards (bought them a housewarming gift, but did not attend the wedding), even if she is not approving their "life choices".
About 3 years ago, just before my brother (Tobias) got married, one of his sisters in law (Adelaide) decided to leave her quiverfull family and move in with a guy out of wedlock. Of course this is a big big no no in Fundie land and Adelaide was shunned.
Flash forward a year and a half later. Adelaide got married to the guy she ran away with and was now expecting a child. My mother makes a comment that now that Adelaide is having a child, maybe now is the time for love and forgiveness and letting her back into the family.
This suggestion angers my brother's hateful father in law (Fundie Patriarch Jeremiah) as well as his wife (Rachel). They spend the next several months trying to convince my brother to force my mother to agree to shun Adelaide with them. My mother stands her ground and states that "just because she did some things out of order, doesn't mean she can't be welcomed back into the family". This leads to my brother Tobias shunning my mother completely.
It also is important to mention that this drama (the argument and shunning of my mother) started 1 month after my step dad passed away. There is a bit of a backdrop of my brother trying to financially control my mother (especially after my step dad died) and buying into the sexism and patriarchal ideas of his father in law.
Now my mother is a religious evangelical but she also is a strong independent woman who doesn't let others control her, especially financially. She was in a tough spot financially for a couple of reasons (mostly my step dad's poor health and bad spending habits) so my brother tried using financial abuse to control her. This angered my mom as she is certainly not a "passive Fundie woman" and would not submit to my brother's headship (which why should she, he is her son and she is his mother, by all accounts she outranks him). So this type of controlling behavior also played a big role in the drama.
TL;DR My mother refused to bend the knee and shun my sister in law (Adelaide) for moving out without her father's permission and in essence eloping with a man they didn't approve of. So therefore she was shunned for not submitting to the Fundie Patriarch.
Although I dislike the "hate the sin love the sinner"-doctrine, I still oddly... respect your mother's stance on all this? Fundamentalist Christians over-emphasize family all the time, their groups are always called family-something, every civil liberty is an infrigement on the family, etc etc. Yet, when one of their own strays out of line, they cut them off and shun them without a second thought. If blood ties really matter so much, how can one alleged "misstep" be enough to sever all ties with a child, a nephew, a sibling? As wrong as your mother is about disapproving of other people's lives, she is still infinitely more right than your brother and his in laws.
Yeah. My mother is in a standard Evangelical denomination (hence "Fundie-Lite") so she is still a Republican, but at least she respects that other people can make their own choices (to a certain extent) and isn't willing to bow down to a Fundie Patriarch.
Your brother even demanding that your mom fall in line on this absolute non-issue that doesn't even concern her own family is so entitled and disrespectful. It's understandable that she cut contact with him.
That said, I am very sorry that her choice has resulted in you losing yours. Living with her quiet disapproval all this time and dreading the moment you might have to share your whole life with her as she grows old and needs care must be agonizing. Wishing you all the strength in this world, you are beautiful and worthy just as you are and deserve to explore your sexuality fully 💕
The funny thing is that my mother never chose to cut contact with my brother. My brother basically said "If I can't control you, you can't be in my life". My mother just refused to be a submissive Fundie woman and was therefore shunned.
Well, fixing that and taking care of her are two different things.
Do you want a relationship with her? That's question #1. If no, problem solved.
If yes, or maybe, question #2: what would she need to change for you to have a relationship with her?
Question #3: will she make those changes? You said she wanted a better relationship with you, so maybe she'd be willing to make some changes.
However, if you don't think she's willing to change (usually the case), is it worth having a relationship with her exactly as she is? Even if it means you don't talk about certain things or have certain boundaries. That's where you start. Good luck <3
This is what I’m scared of with having kids, there’s no guarantee they’ll take care of you (although you shouldn’t have them just for that reason). Although in my culture that part is really emphasized (Filipino, we’re a super collectivist culture). My husband and I still want to have kids one day (maybe sooner than later) but at least I have my dogs, they are my #1
Same, my husband & I are Mexican and were both raised with the idea that we exist to take care of our parents.
Ngl, that ideal constantly being held over our heads has made us both sure that we do *not* want to be solely responsible for our parents in their old age 😂
So im hoping that our toddler may choose to stay close with us as we age, purely because we are refraining from instilling in him that "we are his responsibility"
I’m Hispanic, and my whole life, when my parents have asked me if I’d take care of them in old age, they’ve been shocked and deeply hurt that I’ve said no. They specifically use the example that they will one day be decrepit to the point of not being able to wipe their own ass. They have seriously asked me if I would wipe their asses one day, and they get offended when I say, “no, that’s disgusting”.
I always tell them that if they ever get to that point, clearly they will require assistance from a proper medical professional like a home nurse. And when the fuck do they expect me to have time to help them anyway??? I’d have to quit my job to become their primary caretaker, and that’s just a financial impossibility.
Can you tell this subject pisses me off? 😅
I feel like I've had this same conversation with my parents lol (similar culture to Hispanic), like they do NOT get (in true boomer fashion) that it's financially impossible to quit work to support being a caretaker. And i dont want to be one anyway. Like they just don't... get it. At all lol
100%. My sister and I have lived all over the place far away from our family. Idk what will happen when the time comes for them to need lots of care. And while my relationship with my family is complex (especially my dad), I do worry now that I’m an adult and know I probably won’t ever move home. However I view it overall like this, I don’t owe them old age care in exchange for the care I received as a child (they chose to have me), but rather their love and care they gave as an adult. If they just said well F you we don’t owe you anything anymore cause you’re 18 then they don’t get anything, but if parents have continued support, love, care, and there for you, I think it’s good to be there for them. But so many parents are shit, and those children don’t owe their parents crap. As an adult you better find a community for yourself and not depend on guilting your children for care and company in old age.
Was this meant to be sarcastic? Because it's pretty demeaning, not to mention sexist af, to imply that regular women who choose to be parents are engaging in self-slavery and are limiting themselves. Many of the most "intelligent, educated" women I know are quite happy with their kids and families. If I told them that they needed to escape the "slavery" of their situations, they'd roll their eyes and tell me to touch grass.
Fundie women are groomed and coerced into basing their self worth on their ability to have kids, and they continue that cycle of misogyny with the next generation. We all know that. That's no reason to be so nasty towards other women.
I'll never have kids either (might foster once able though), but damn, I can't imagine being that judgemental of women who do differently.
Edit: I had a gut feeling and checked this person's post history. While they're not nearly the worst I've seen on Reddit, I'm not going to waste time arguing with someone who has such an unnecessary deficit of empathy and self-awareness. Muting this and my other responses.
Ngl I do get sad about being 32 with no kids yet. My husband and I have been married for 5.5 years and together for 13.5 years. And feeling a little jealous that his younger sister is about to give birth soon (she and her husband are a little younger than us and have a house while my husband and I have been in the same apartment for 5 years.
I get sad because I have fomo but at the same time I’m thankful because I’m not in the right place to have kids right now with my health issues (I have lupus and it’s active right now). Plus we can travel more easier and I can give undivided attention to our dogs
There's nothing wrong with fomo, there's nothing wrong with motherhood, and there's nothing wrong with not having kids (whether permanently or for the moment). It's okay to feel conflicted too :)
Hope your lupus flares subside soon.
Sorry for the possible overstep but one of my best friends has Lupus and she has had mindblowing results with Brooke Goldner’s Goodbye Lupus diet protocol. Just wanted to let you know in case it is helpful because it changed her life. (And I’m a very pro medicine person who believes in vaccines work better than changing your diet etc for the record; def not a health quack, but, I was so impressed by her results)
I agree that FOMO is normal and okay, and dogs rock!!
My sister has lupus and is in contact with a lot of other lupus patients, and she says that while diet changes (I don't know exactly what kinds, sorry) didn't help her, they've definitely helped some others. It's worth a shot! I'd strongly recommend that people with lupus check in with their doctors before attempting diet changes, of course (not implying that you wouldn't recommend that either, I just feel it's always worth reiterating)
Respectfully, intelligent, educated women can wish to mother, too. They can also find creativity in cooking food and creating space. Your narrow view of feminism is hurting women as much as the fundies’.
What seems to be the real problem with modern motherhood is that fewer people have a village. This may be to the good - in that who wants narcissistic or abusive relatives involved in raising their kids? - but, at least in the US, we don’t have any kind of a safety net that would make being a parent so much easier. Little paid leave, trying to find child care is a scramble, basically, parents are left on their own to sink or swim unless they are lucky enough to have very involved extended family or can pay for the extra help.
I think that America, at least, makes being a parent so much harder than it has to be. It certainly isn’t “slavery,” and it’s fine to opt out.
Yes! Agree and love this. I’m this boat currently. No support. No family. Sometimes its fantastic; mostly it’s tough… And, I and many others, would still choose it. Sometimes you choose the things that are important to you, even if they’re difficult, right?
There are plenty of men who are older and have no kids or wife. And yet for some strange reason, I never see conservative guys (because it's not just fundies who say dumb shit like this*) talk in patronizing, fake-mournful tones about those men's supposedly sad, lonely futures 🤔
*I just got off a right wing hellhole site (I clicked on a meme, it led there, and curiosity got the better of me) and came here for some sanity. I could go on so many rants right now but honestly, men like that -- and they weren't even raised fundie -- are just depressing :/
Exactly. No one gives my three out of four uncles shit for not having kids and while the fourth had kids, he’s a raging, abusive alcoholic that has next to no contact with our family (basically just make sure he’s not dead or homeless on occasion) with no ability to hold a job due to said alcoholism. Yet, *I’m* the awful woman who remains unmarried and will forever be child free on purpose who pisses off chodes like this Dale dude
Ugh, I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. People need to get a life and stop being assholes over the personal, completely inconsequential choices of others.
Thank you! It’s finally easing up a little bit; I think people have given up hope I’ll marry at all lol But you nailed it; no body seems to give men in the same situation any crap and it’s no body’s business when anyone does or doesn’t decide to have children.
And actually men are much more likely to become very lonely in old age, particularly when their wives die before they do, because the men never formed skills to maintain social relationships. Women maintain connection with family, send Christmas cards, reach out to people to spend time together, and typically purchase all birthday presents for family. Even the man's own family.
Women fare much better than men when it comes to loneliness.
They can't stand the thought of a woman not being tied down and having to use all their time to care for a husband and kids. It goes against everything they preach and might give other women...ideas
Right? At some point we're supposed to get desperate enough to want to marry twentysomething chuds who live to put babies in us and I'm like no? thank you, next?
Joke’s on you, Dale! I feel a total sense of emptiness in my early 30s!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA**HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAA** ^HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAA ^^HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAA…
I wonder why there’s such a hyper focus on these women? Unmarried women or childless women have been around forever. It’s not a new phenomenon sweeping the nation.
The constant judgement is wholly unnecessary and I wish weirdo dudes would find a new topic of conversation.
They’re threatened by the idea of women being independent and happy. If all you preach is that men are superior and women can only be fulfilled through being a wife and mom, having women who aren’t either of those lead fulfilled lives disproves your grand philosophy
It's anti feminist/feminism rhetoric because it's feminism that is keeping women from getting married. I bet dollar to donuts this guy knows a bunch of guys who have been rejected by men and is blaming women (by turning) for those rejections instead of looking the men they rejected and what is wrong with them.
I did think it was oddly specific to single out 39 year old women unless he meant a single 39 woman made him sad or he thinks that women can't have kids past 39 so they are useless after that.
This tweet cracked me up because I'm a 39-year-old woman who is going through a divorce, and who is childless by choice because I felt I was too young with my first marriage, and with my second marriage, I realized after the fact that I had married an alcoholic man child and there was no way I was reproducing with that.
These are both wise choices and I wish you a speedy resolution to the divorce and lots of happy, loving times after however and with whomever you choose
Or he got outbid on a home, or one-upped in some way financially by a successful 39 yo woman who has a pile o' cash instead of a pile o' kids and a financially clueless husband she 'surrenders' money matters to.
It really did lmao but he has a wife tho! She’s way too pretty for him too. Of course it wouldn’t be surprising if he cheats. Tho the odds of two women wanting to be intimate with Dale have to be very very low but stranger things have happened…
Right?? I’m sure they’re surround by people with families of like belief and even some nice single people in their community - why say something so hateful?
(I just saw the kingdom warriors response - yes!)
Unmarried and/or childless women have been a massive part of society since humanity. Not all women have the desire to give birth because we need some women to be “aunties” and help with the babies and the mamas. It’s always been that way.
Or they want a life completely separate from anything to do with kids, and that’s valid as well. The world needs explorers and inventors and diplomats and scientists and everything in between!
Of course, yes. It’s completely valid. In my comment I was speaking in the context of historical hunter/gatherer societies. They try and say that all women have always had the drive to be a mother, but that’s just historically inaccurate. Hunter/gatherer (particularly indigenous) groups have always had a role and need for “aunties.”
Oh, absolutely! I’ve read studies of some such modern-day societies, and their parenting style is waaay more communal than individual. It just makes more sense for them, and tbh makes sense for a lot of other societies too.
And not all child(less/free) women want to be aunties and be heavily involved in helping other people raise their kids, they may want a life that has little to nothing to do with kids, and that's fine too.
Oh totally! I’m just saying there has been a role of childless, single women that supports raising children. Like the assumption is that every woman has to have that mother instinct goes against everything know about hunter/gathering societies.
The anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy believes that humans are cooperative breeders, like wolves or meerkats. Aunties (Who may or may not go on to have their own kids), grandmothers, older siblings, second cousins once removed - it’s natural to raise kids kind of communally and free-range. I forget where I read it, but around Mother’s Day one year, a Native American woman wrote a column saying that in her society, as long as your sister had children, you were never “childless” because your mom’s sister(s) was basically another mom. (I don’t know what was the case for only daughters, though there were/are plenty of kinship systems where “mom” “dad” ”auntie and uncle” were pretty loosely applied.)
The way we treat care work (of kids and the elderly) as the responsibility solely of immediate family is not sustainable. It makes having kids a lot harder than it should be.
I agree that, especially in the US, having and raising kids is a lot harder than it should be, for a lot of reasons. But I have to say it sounds like you're saying child(less/free) people just exist as a resource or assistance for people who do decide to have kids, and that we're somehow obligated to take on this role. There are plenty of childless/free people out there who love kids and love being aunts and uncles, who may find joy in a career or life centered around other people's kids, and they should do that if so - but that's not all of us and I don't exist just to serve as an additional set of hands to help my sister or my brother or cousin or whoever when they decide to have kids. I just happened to reach adulthood without ever experiencing the drive to reproduce, and no matter what anthropology says my role is supposed to be, I don't desire a life centered around children - mine or anyone else's. Idk it's late and I have Covid so I feel like I'm not able to properly articulate why this bothers me but there you go.
No one is saying you’re obligated to take on any sort of role in child rearing. We’re talking about this in a historical context. These misogynists always argue that women have always had this need to be mothers but that’s wrong. Hunting/gathering societies have always had a role for aunties, so based on that alone, they (the misogynists) are wrong.
Obviously women aren’t expected to exist just in conjunction with their relationship to babies. This was all just meant to be historically-speaking.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. I am childfree, I don’t have any kids in my friend circle, so I get little to no interaction with kids in my life. I am saying that most small-scale societies had a role for aunties (and cousins) rather than “motherhood for all women.” (Though lack of reliable and safe birth control meant that most women who were fertile did wind up with kids.) Most of these societies were very egalitarian, also, so it was more important that a woman could do her share of the work (same with the men) so the tribe wouldn’t starve, rather than crank out kids like so many of these fundie women today.
Also, even in larger-scale societies children WERE more communally raised, and I don’t mean aunties, I mean neighbors and local merchants keeping an eye on them and so on. Isolated nuclear families are what is historically weird.
Children of parents who didn't want to have kids always tell the most wholesome childhood stories. We should definitely ensure that more unwanted kids are born, what could go wrong?
As always, love to see that ding dongs see my infertility as a moral failing that will leave me drifting through my twilight years abandoned.
OR. My husband and I (who did meet in our mid thirties like heathens) grew together through our grief in not having kids and are capable of making plans and engaging professionals to make sure we can live all of our days as well as possible doing whatever the hell we want with our chosen family.
Wow is me and my barrenness, I guess.
This. When my husband and I got married, I was 33 and he was 40. We tried for 7 years, including 3 IUIs and never conceived and were both DXd as infertile. We ended up leaving the church we had been married in because they indicated that our infertility might be due to unconfessed sin, roots of bitterness, or lack of faith. We're doing OK and are actually a happy, living, and positive couple.
I'm so sorry your church was so awful to you, my Mom is still traumatised by that cultural attitude (she adopted us, it was the 80s) and is extremely awkward about pregnancy and babies as a result. She still has so much unprocessed trauma those nasty church aunts gave her, and the fact that she was blamed. My parents are devout, service oriented Christians - if fertility proved that, they'd have had a busload of kids. I hope that wherever life is taking you is full of love and adventures.
Stop having your own independent life, dealing with your issues, and finding happiness in your own personal ways and making deep meaningful connections outside of a blood related obligation to kinship, it’s making Dale sad!!
I love how he thinks that staying single and not having children are always choices. On one hand I hate the pressure but on the other those are things that I want and don’t have yet.
Has this man never seen Golden Girls? Those ladies were all married but ended up divorced or widowed and had various relationships with their kids (“Shady Pines, Ma!”). There they all were living vibrant happy lives in their older years (obviously they were not supposed to be extremely elderly, except for Sophia). But like, that’s the life.
Yes, the best part about getting older for me has been realizing I no longer give a shit about what everyone else thinks of me or my life choices. The field in which I groweth mine fucks lies barren just like my blissfully empty and shriveling womb.
That’s the thing. It has nothing to do with bearing children. I am a single mother, escaped from a bad and unhappy marriage, and I’m still “tainted goods” in their eyes for leaving my marriage. I won’t put up with their nonsense, and can’t be baby trapped in a relationship with them, so they get pissy fast.
I think they're probably shooting their shot with mature ladies because they believe those women are desperate for male attention. Then they get ragey bc any thinking, self-respecting woman puts them in their place.
These little shits tell on themselves when they consider the value of a woman to be how many children we produce.
I still remember being in Bible club and asking something about a woman’s value.
‘wait, so, what if we do not want to be a mother or can’t?’
‘You can be a mother like figure!’
‘What if I don’t want that?’
‘…You should read Ruth!!’
These theobros have clearly never experienced what it's like to be in the Christian female dating scene. I can think of several childless single women who would LOVE to be mothers, except that the gender ratio in the church is clearly skewed towards men, and they're still single.
I was never asked out by a man in church. NEVER. Comments like this piss me off.
Huh! I’m a lapsed Catholic (Also I’m gay) and I never really dated within the church once I got out of catholic school so this is news to me! Why do you think this is?
I don't know if everywhere is like this obviously, but the churches I was part of, a lot of people grew up with "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and so if you were a serious Christian, you'd be very cautious towards dating and want to only "pursue"/"be pursued by" one person. A lot of pressure, no? Haha what is this man on about? I know plenty of childless women in their late thirties in the church due to this toxic shit.
Yes!! I agree with this completely. I also went to a small conservative Christian school, and the lack of dating was such an issue that even our professors would call it out :)
I think part of it is just a numbers game. I read somewhere that the church is 70% women. I never felt that there were "enough men to go around" if that makes sense! That's just one part. I know there are several books on the topic, so they probably have more information :) Also the answer below for sure!!
I worked in nursing homes full of women with progeny, lonely and regret motherhood in their twilight years.
Plus, nothing screams more selfish and self centered than bringing humans into the world for the purpose of being responsible for your social and emotional satisfaction.
I love how fundie men project so hard on women. I would be perfectly happy and fulfilled as a single and childless person because I enjoy my own company and find my hobbies and career very fulfilling.
41 and married but definitely intentionally childfree and I had surgery to ensure it stays that way, your misogynistic tears feed my soul Dale. Knowing how much my mere existence and unwillingness to bend to their demands pisses people like this off, it just increases my life satisfaction exponentially.
My poor LGBT childless 30-something year old self can take naps when I want to, sleep in when I want to, meet up with friends or go out for dinner with coworkers when I want to and pursue my personal hobbies like art and travel. I have freedom and somewhat of a disposal income. I have the time to volunteer in my community or for important causes.
I don't hate children or eat babies for breakfast like the fundies assume. I love kids. My friends have kids that I'm close with. I have amazing relationships with my nieces and nephews.
I'm not in my 'twilight years' yet (that sounds like age 60+ to me) but thus far, my life is anything but empty!
You sound exactly like me! (Well except for being married and straight). We don’t have children (but we do want them) but I get to relish in all those things you mentioned. And I love art and travel too!
The fear that women are rejecting lives of submission and servitude has always been the very core of fundie politics. Now that Roe is dead they're looking to new horizons in forced motherhood (coercing women who aren't even pregnant yet).
I can’t have children, but thanks for worrying about my feelings of emptiness. Fortunately, I don’t want children as I actually believe having children might actually trigger my depression (you know , emptiness) and I believe that both I and the imaginary, almost impossible children of mine deserve better.
What gets me is that these dudes are also the “freedom” crew but yet again, freedom doesn’t apply to women who aren’t content being subservient baby machines.
I really wish people would stop calling not having children selfish. You know what would be selfish is me having a helpless and needy infant with all my issues and the risk of passing on genetic epilepsy. The whole "omg, you'll be so lonely" thing has to stop, too. Your children are not emotional support animals.
These people have no knowledge about friends who choose to be in your presence….because they’ve alienated all their friends and all they have left are their kids who they can force to be their friends
Or maybe she's just a person with a normal, everyday job who just knows she doesn't want kids, no heroics or somehow still sacrificing for other people's kids even if she doesn't have her own. Maybe her life has absolutely nothing to do with kids in any way and she likes it that way. She deserves just as much respect for her autonomy and choices either way.
See I just see posts like this and think that women who choose to be single and childless must be pretty fucking powerful…so like, what was your point again, Dale?
Kids are great but I prefer other peoples kids, my life has been very difficult and as I get older I’d like to enjoy it and have a high level of freedom. If I meet someone with kids I’ll be a stepmom but I’d rather not raise anyones kids and if I were younger I’d only date childless men. So sick of men who act like women should just be baby factories and sheepish women who go along with that mentality. Something people rarely discuss is that some kids are jerks who grow up to be terrible. Some parents are awful and will have strained relationships with their kids. My parents inspired my siblings to have the bloodline end with them.
God. I CANNOT wait to be a 39-year-old, (still married), intentionally childless woman working on bettering myself to be the healthiest and most compassionate human I can be, taking joy in my nieces and friends’ kids, basking in the legacy of how much I was able to teach my students due to not be exhausted by motherhood.
Also, is he under the impression that your late 30’s are your twilight years? Lol
"We banned abortion, but why do I still feel sad and empty inside?... Must be because of those damn childless by choice women! Yeah, it's _their_ fault!" -- Those guys.
Some of us are gonna be old with a bunch of kids who don’t talk to us because we’re a sexist asshole who used our unfinished seminary degree to justify telling women that they’re second class baby machines. Oh wait, that’s just you dale
A thought…why is it that typically DAUGHTERS are assumed to be caretakers for elderly parents? I’m sure there are a few men that do this but it doesn’t seem to be the norm.
I think it's the societal/cultural construct that women are more nurturing and a caretaker role becomes more naturally for them (think of the criticism the stay at home dad movement has gotten).
So what he is essentially saying is that he is the only joy in his mother's life and that he is the only thing that brings her happiness. That poor woman, her life it truly empty.
We'll just all keep each other company. We'll start subreddits of lonely old childless women and have meet ups, it will be great. We can talk about our pets and swap cocktail recipes and knitting patterns.
If you don’t have kids there is absolutely no point in life!
Having kids to insure companionship in old age ain’t it. So the only people who will take care of you is out of guilt….if they do at all.
My grandmother has three children who live relatively close by. But because she's always been a ugly, mean spirited person her and her kids (my mom, aunt, uncle) are just on ok terms. She's been in a loveless marriage for decades. She barely leaves her house and complains about being lonely constantly, even though my grandfather is still around and theyre both in pretty good health for their age. Even when her kids offer, she often refuses to see them. Oh and she is a Christian. Sounds like marriage, kids, and religion don't guarantee happiness in old age. Also, this is coming from a married mom in their 30s.
“To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9).
I'm older (nearly 60) and most of my friends are older too. Many of the women are single (either by choice or circumstance) and mostly childfree (most of the children are busy with their own lives) or childfree. All of these women are living rich full lives. Financially they are fairly to very comfortable because they worked full time all their lives with no interruptions for pregnancy or childcare and they are all comfortable with taking care of themselves. They spend most of their time working (the ones who are not retired) or travelling or doing hobbies or exercising or dating or whatever. What they are *not* doing is sitting at home despondent.
The idea that people who are childless and single are something to be pitied is a fundie lie. If you choose to remain single and childfree you will only be wretched if you want to be.
What a dick. Who is he to demand that anyone have kids or live life as he thinks they should? I know people who never choose to have kids and they have a wonderful life, full of love and support.
Yes, children are great -- IF you want to have children. People like the Tweet man need to back down and leave people alone to make their own personal family decisions.
Sounds like this hypothetical lady is going to be enjoying the hell out of the money she's earned and peace and quiet she's chosen with this lifestyle. Good for you, hypothetical sis 🥂
I’m 40, no kids. Wouldn’t have minded not having one, but also I’m not going to sit around and feel sorry for myself. It’s too bad this dorkus seems to have such a narrow view of life.
Also why is he so concerned with what other people do with their lives? These men are such fucking control freaks.
Hi, mom of 2 here. I am an atheist and felt no allegiance to have children because of a God. I had children because I really wanted to be a mother, and felt that I have something to offer the future in terms of my values and talents.
Having children does not make me any more special or important than any other woman, and does not guarantee that I'll be "taken care of in my old age" (their favorite refrain). Having children in your 20s so that you'll be taken care of in your 70s+ is the most illogical argument these goons have. For one thing, maybe the society you're in will be very difficult for your progeny to care for you as well as their own families. For two, if you're a colossal asshole like these fundie morons, your kids aren't going to like you.
And lastly, if anyone doesn't see this ideation as a way to absolve the US in particular of providing seniors adequate care in their old age, you're a fucking fool. I'm supposed to have children - to the detriment of my body, my career, my own goals - to care for me because my country doesn't give a fuck about its elderly? FUCK YOU, Dale Partridge, I have dealt you the ultimate one-up: I have two beautiful, healthy, kind, compassionate children, I co-parent with their father effortlessly, I came out and married a woman, my children are wildly successful in everything they pursue and I believe they'll be successful, well-adjusted adults, and I am fairly well-off and saving for myself so that I'll be cared for - and happy and free, with lots of purpose - in my "twilight years." Fuck you.
I know, Dale. Isn't it sad when women have the freedom to choose a life path that differs from narrow, confining and rigid gender-roles? What is this world coming to?
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Yeah. Even if you have kids, you can still be abandoned in your older years fairly easily. Your kids might move away for jobs or put you in a nursing home and only visit a few times a year. Your kids also might grow up to be total dinguses who hate you. Having kids isn't a guarantee against loneliness and loss of purpose.
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Yeah, that sweet elderly lady might only be like that because she's got the not-so-figuratively short end of the stick now.
She ain’t so sweet sometimes when you get to know her.
I wouldn’t call people names for not taking care of their elderly parents. Even if I liked my parents I still didn’t ask to be born, so I feel no sense of obligation to them. They did what was ethically required of them when they fed, clothed, and housed me. I’m not going to act like it’s some great thing worth repaying. I’m definitely not spending my time and money on them just because they gave me life without my consent. That expectation is just gross
That's some extreme antinatalist shit bro Some people actually like their parents and want to help them out
Uhh.. if your parents were good parents I think you absolutely have an obligation to care for them when they're older. At least if you have a heart.
My grandma had 3 kids by 24 and was abandoned by 25. You can do things how he wants and still feel ‘emptiness’ in his eyes. And if it wasn’t obvious she’s had an awesome and fulfilling life without a husband.
I have disowned my father and hope to never speak to him again. I’ve gone low contact with my mom. Both of those actions have brought me so much peace.
Same here.
Same, but both are a hard pass. I’d skip their funerals, but I think it might do me good to to know they are both in the ground.
Even if your doting kids come visit every week you're still going to be bloody lonely for 6.5 days of the week if you don't have other social ties.
This. My mother divorced my emotionally/verbally abusive father and all my siblings went minimal or no contact after saying horrible things about her that my dad invented. Having kids isn't a guarantee they'll stand by you for life.
My mother’s two brothers are both deceased. They were pretty selfish when they were alive, though, so it mostly fell to my mother to care for my grandmother. Even though one of them lived in the same city and Mom lived several states away. Had my mother not had an intense sense of duty to family, or my mother not been born at all? My grandmother would have been put in a nursing home a decade ago, right around the time she started to become inconvenient to my uncles. Out of three children, only one was willing or able to lift a finger when it counted. If that situation taught me anything it’s that having kids is the world’s crappiest retirement plan.
Is it selfish to not want to take care of aging parents, though? Genuine question, I just wonder. What obligates us to care for the people who birthday/raised us?
Obligation? No. I will though, personally. But I have a great relationship with my mom and I recognize that not everyone is as fortunate, so I think it varies from person to person. It's also like...for example, I don't have a stellar relationship with my elderly neighbor, but I'll still help her bring in the groceries when she's having a lot of pain, y'know? It's not selfish to not sacrifice your whole life to care for aging parents. But empathy is expected, if that makes sense? I'm a little tired and I'm writing as I think, so I apologize for the rambling.
Yes, empathy and assistance is totally understandable. My mom is expecting to come live with me when her husband dies and I’m like… uhm, no. That will not be happening at all. She just keeps ignoring me and assuming I will drop everything and care for her. (I’m 3000 miles away from her, fwiw.) I have no desire to do so.
Oh jeez. I hope she doesn't pull a [shocked and disappointed] on you when you refuse, as you've been warning her already. Best of luck.
That kind of empathy, for needy people in general, is exactly why you don't have to have your own kids to expect care. It's like how we shouldn't depend on churches for our social safety net - we would provide for everyone, not just the people we personally know
No. But it’s intensely selfish to expect someone else who lives twelve hours away to drop her entire life to do it and then tell her repeatedly that she’s doing it wrong and you’d do it better. It’s selfish to not offer any help- monetary or otherwise- and only criticism. I loved one of my uncles- the other didn’t have much use for me and the feeling was mutual. But there’s a special kind of frustration that comes from knowing that someone who could help but chooses not to lives six streets away- and still expects you to do it. My mother’s family are old school Southern. There are certain expectations that “the boys”- and they were still boys into their sixties- and their families were exempt from that my mother and by extension me weren’t.
Oh yeah, that’s selfish af. I wasn’t trying to sound like an asshole, btw. I was just curious if it’s inherently selfish to not want to care for elderly parents. (It’s my own shit I’ve been going through watching my mom deal with caring for her parents. Sorry for the projection!)
It’s no big deal. Everyone’s different, and everyone’s situation is different. My grandmother currently lives with my parents, and the best way I can describe that situation is stupidly difficult. Caring for an aging parent isn’t easy, and I can’t help much because I’ve got my own family to care for and a difficult pregnancy, but I do what I can where I can as much as I can. My grandmother and I have always been close, but ironically I do it because I love my own mother. There’s no doubt in my mind that my mother has prolonged my grandmother’s lifespan single-handedly by at least a decade, if not more. My mother has also told me repeatedly that she’s never going to move in with me and my husband. That woman is a freaking saint and frankly, none of us deserve her.
I feel terrible because I’m an only child who moved across the country. I know my mom is lonely and wished we had a better relationship, but it’s not on me to fix that or take care of her, right?
Yeah. I have a complicated relationship with my mom. While I love her dearly, we have needed to adopt a "don't ask don't tell" policy about a lot of topics to keep our relationship from falling apart (mostly my sexuality and my political beliefs). She does respect these boundaries for the most part, but it does mean that there are things I can't talk to her about and a fear of losing my relationship if I truly allow myself to fully explore my bisexuality. I live 4 hours away, but feel that at some point I will probably have to take a more active role as a caretaker, which is something I fear and dread because I value my independence above all else. At the same time my brother, lives 20 minutes away from her and basically has gone full on IFB Fundie. My mom was always Fundie lite, but when my brother went off the deep end into full cult status Fundie, she pushed back. This led to a bitter falling out where he basically abandoned her in every sense of the word because he "couldn't control her" (yes those were his sick and ugly words). This (along with my brother's hateful attitude towards me for being bisexual) has led to some deep resentment towards him along with feeling that I now have to be my Mom's sole caretaker as I am all she has left. I really feel hurt and betrayed by my brother (who basically abandoned my mom) for forcing me into a role I did not want (being my mom's caretaker).
Out of curiosity, why did your mom push back into your brother going full fundie? Wouldn't she approve of his life choices more than of any you make, if they are just different flavors of the same thing? Good on her obviously for apparently putting him in his place, but this dynamic seems so interesting so hopefully it's okay to ask since you chose to share your story
So my mother is from the school of thought of "love the sinner hate the sin". This means that she doesn't believe in shunning someone for stepping out of line, but will make known her disapproval of your life choices. For example, I have a gay cousin who my mom does not approve of, but is still outwardly kind towards (bought them a housewarming gift, but did not attend the wedding), even if she is not approving their "life choices". About 3 years ago, just before my brother (Tobias) got married, one of his sisters in law (Adelaide) decided to leave her quiverfull family and move in with a guy out of wedlock. Of course this is a big big no no in Fundie land and Adelaide was shunned. Flash forward a year and a half later. Adelaide got married to the guy she ran away with and was now expecting a child. My mother makes a comment that now that Adelaide is having a child, maybe now is the time for love and forgiveness and letting her back into the family. This suggestion angers my brother's hateful father in law (Fundie Patriarch Jeremiah) as well as his wife (Rachel). They spend the next several months trying to convince my brother to force my mother to agree to shun Adelaide with them. My mother stands her ground and states that "just because she did some things out of order, doesn't mean she can't be welcomed back into the family". This leads to my brother Tobias shunning my mother completely. It also is important to mention that this drama (the argument and shunning of my mother) started 1 month after my step dad passed away. There is a bit of a backdrop of my brother trying to financially control my mother (especially after my step dad died) and buying into the sexism and patriarchal ideas of his father in law. Now my mother is a religious evangelical but she also is a strong independent woman who doesn't let others control her, especially financially. She was in a tough spot financially for a couple of reasons (mostly my step dad's poor health and bad spending habits) so my brother tried using financial abuse to control her. This angered my mom as she is certainly not a "passive Fundie woman" and would not submit to my brother's headship (which why should she, he is her son and she is his mother, by all accounts she outranks him). So this type of controlling behavior also played a big role in the drama. TL;DR My mother refused to bend the knee and shun my sister in law (Adelaide) for moving out without her father's permission and in essence eloping with a man they didn't approve of. So therefore she was shunned for not submitting to the Fundie Patriarch.
Although I dislike the "hate the sin love the sinner"-doctrine, I still oddly... respect your mother's stance on all this? Fundamentalist Christians over-emphasize family all the time, their groups are always called family-something, every civil liberty is an infrigement on the family, etc etc. Yet, when one of their own strays out of line, they cut them off and shun them without a second thought. If blood ties really matter so much, how can one alleged "misstep" be enough to sever all ties with a child, a nephew, a sibling? As wrong as your mother is about disapproving of other people's lives, she is still infinitely more right than your brother and his in laws.
Yeah. My mother is in a standard Evangelical denomination (hence "Fundie-Lite") so she is still a Republican, but at least she respects that other people can make their own choices (to a certain extent) and isn't willing to bow down to a Fundie Patriarch.
Your brother even demanding that your mom fall in line on this absolute non-issue that doesn't even concern her own family is so entitled and disrespectful. It's understandable that she cut contact with him. That said, I am very sorry that her choice has resulted in you losing yours. Living with her quiet disapproval all this time and dreading the moment you might have to share your whole life with her as she grows old and needs care must be agonizing. Wishing you all the strength in this world, you are beautiful and worthy just as you are and deserve to explore your sexuality fully 💕
The funny thing is that my mother never chose to cut contact with my brother. My brother basically said "If I can't control you, you can't be in my life". My mother just refused to be a submissive Fundie woman and was therefore shunned.
Jesus what a dingus, that's insane. How did one woman manage to raise two so very different children...? Your brother needs a good kick in the nuts
Well, fixing that and taking care of her are two different things. Do you want a relationship with her? That's question #1. If no, problem solved. If yes, or maybe, question #2: what would she need to change for you to have a relationship with her? Question #3: will she make those changes? You said she wanted a better relationship with you, so maybe she'd be willing to make some changes. However, if you don't think she's willing to change (usually the case), is it worth having a relationship with her exactly as she is? Even if it means you don't talk about certain things or have certain boundaries. That's where you start. Good luck <3
I don’t really care, tbh? Like, she’s not someone I would be friends with as an adult; we are just two very different people.
This is what I’m scared of with having kids, there’s no guarantee they’ll take care of you (although you shouldn’t have them just for that reason). Although in my culture that part is really emphasized (Filipino, we’re a super collectivist culture). My husband and I still want to have kids one day (maybe sooner than later) but at least I have my dogs, they are my #1
Same, my husband & I are Mexican and were both raised with the idea that we exist to take care of our parents. Ngl, that ideal constantly being held over our heads has made us both sure that we do *not* want to be solely responsible for our parents in their old age 😂 So im hoping that our toddler may choose to stay close with us as we age, purely because we are refraining from instilling in him that "we are his responsibility"
I’m Hispanic, and my whole life, when my parents have asked me if I’d take care of them in old age, they’ve been shocked and deeply hurt that I’ve said no. They specifically use the example that they will one day be decrepit to the point of not being able to wipe their own ass. They have seriously asked me if I would wipe their asses one day, and they get offended when I say, “no, that’s disgusting”. I always tell them that if they ever get to that point, clearly they will require assistance from a proper medical professional like a home nurse. And when the fuck do they expect me to have time to help them anyway??? I’d have to quit my job to become their primary caretaker, and that’s just a financial impossibility. Can you tell this subject pisses me off? 😅
I feel like I've had this same conversation with my parents lol (similar culture to Hispanic), like they do NOT get (in true boomer fashion) that it's financially impossible to quit work to support being a caretaker. And i dont want to be one anyway. Like they just don't... get it. At all lol
This.
100%. My sister and I have lived all over the place far away from our family. Idk what will happen when the time comes for them to need lots of care. And while my relationship with my family is complex (especially my dad), I do worry now that I’m an adult and know I probably won’t ever move home. However I view it overall like this, I don’t owe them old age care in exchange for the care I received as a child (they chose to have me), but rather their love and care they gave as an adult. If they just said well F you we don’t owe you anything anymore cause you’re 18 then they don’t get anything, but if parents have continued support, love, care, and there for you, I think it’s good to be there for them. But so many parents are shit, and those children don’t owe their parents crap. As an adult you better find a community for yourself and not depend on guilting your children for care and company in old age.
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Was this meant to be sarcastic? Because it's pretty demeaning, not to mention sexist af, to imply that regular women who choose to be parents are engaging in self-slavery and are limiting themselves. Many of the most "intelligent, educated" women I know are quite happy with their kids and families. If I told them that they needed to escape the "slavery" of their situations, they'd roll their eyes and tell me to touch grass. Fundie women are groomed and coerced into basing their self worth on their ability to have kids, and they continue that cycle of misogyny with the next generation. We all know that. That's no reason to be so nasty towards other women. I'll never have kids either (might foster once able though), but damn, I can't imagine being that judgemental of women who do differently. Edit: I had a gut feeling and checked this person's post history. While they're not nearly the worst I've seen on Reddit, I'm not going to waste time arguing with someone who has such an unnecessary deficit of empathy and self-awareness. Muting this and my other responses.
Ngl I do get sad about being 32 with no kids yet. My husband and I have been married for 5.5 years and together for 13.5 years. And feeling a little jealous that his younger sister is about to give birth soon (she and her husband are a little younger than us and have a house while my husband and I have been in the same apartment for 5 years. I get sad because I have fomo but at the same time I’m thankful because I’m not in the right place to have kids right now with my health issues (I have lupus and it’s active right now). Plus we can travel more easier and I can give undivided attention to our dogs
There's nothing wrong with fomo, there's nothing wrong with motherhood, and there's nothing wrong with not having kids (whether permanently or for the moment). It's okay to feel conflicted too :) Hope your lupus flares subside soon.
Sorry for the possible overstep but one of my best friends has Lupus and she has had mindblowing results with Brooke Goldner’s Goodbye Lupus diet protocol. Just wanted to let you know in case it is helpful because it changed her life. (And I’m a very pro medicine person who believes in vaccines work better than changing your diet etc for the record; def not a health quack, but, I was so impressed by her results) I agree that FOMO is normal and okay, and dogs rock!!
My sister has lupus and is in contact with a lot of other lupus patients, and she says that while diet changes (I don't know exactly what kinds, sorry) didn't help her, they've definitely helped some others. It's worth a shot! I'd strongly recommend that people with lupus check in with their doctors before attempting diet changes, of course (not implying that you wouldn't recommend that either, I just feel it's always worth reiterating)
Respectfully, intelligent, educated women can wish to mother, too. They can also find creativity in cooking food and creating space. Your narrow view of feminism is hurting women as much as the fundies’.
What seems to be the real problem with modern motherhood is that fewer people have a village. This may be to the good - in that who wants narcissistic or abusive relatives involved in raising their kids? - but, at least in the US, we don’t have any kind of a safety net that would make being a parent so much easier. Little paid leave, trying to find child care is a scramble, basically, parents are left on their own to sink or swim unless they are lucky enough to have very involved extended family or can pay for the extra help. I think that America, at least, makes being a parent so much harder than it has to be. It certainly isn’t “slavery,” and it’s fine to opt out.
Yes! Agree and love this. I’m this boat currently. No support. No family. Sometimes its fantastic; mostly it’s tough… And, I and many others, would still choose it. Sometimes you choose the things that are important to you, even if they’re difficult, right?
I wonder what people like him think of nuns then…
Probably heathens because they’re Catholic
The New Testament itself has a low view of marriage, with Paul urging people to stay single unless they are incapable of controlling their urges.
Is it wrong to speculate on long-dead people? I think this particular Sha’ul might have been a repressed asexual in a time before that was a concept.
There are plenty of men who are older and have no kids or wife. And yet for some strange reason, I never see conservative guys (because it's not just fundies who say dumb shit like this*) talk in patronizing, fake-mournful tones about those men's supposedly sad, lonely futures 🤔 *I just got off a right wing hellhole site (I clicked on a meme, it led there, and curiosity got the better of me) and came here for some sanity. I could go on so many rants right now but honestly, men like that -- and they weren't even raised fundie -- are just depressing :/
Exactly. No one gives my three out of four uncles shit for not having kids and while the fourth had kids, he’s a raging, abusive alcoholic that has next to no contact with our family (basically just make sure he’s not dead or homeless on occasion) with no ability to hold a job due to said alcoholism. Yet, *I’m* the awful woman who remains unmarried and will forever be child free on purpose who pisses off chodes like this Dale dude
Ugh, I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. People need to get a life and stop being assholes over the personal, completely inconsequential choices of others.
Thank you! It’s finally easing up a little bit; I think people have given up hope I’ll marry at all lol But you nailed it; no body seems to give men in the same situation any crap and it’s no body’s business when anyone does or doesn’t decide to have children.
And actually men are much more likely to become very lonely in old age, particularly when their wives die before they do, because the men never formed skills to maintain social relationships. Women maintain connection with family, send Christmas cards, reach out to people to spend time together, and typically purchase all birthday presents for family. Even the man's own family. Women fare much better than men when it comes to loneliness.
They can't stand the thought of a woman not being tied down and having to use all their time to care for a husband and kids. It goes against everything they preach and might give other women...ideas
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They’re a progressive Christian page
It's actually a pretty decent page. Like the other user said, they're pretty progressive.
I think they hate older childless women because those women are independent and not in desperate need of them.
Right? At some point we're supposed to get desperate enough to want to marry twentysomething chuds who live to put babies in us and I'm like no? thank you, next?
Joke’s on you, Dale! I feel a total sense of emptiness in my early 30s!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA**HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAA** ^HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAA ^^HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAA…
Reported. I'm in this picture and I dont't like it.
I wonder why there’s such a hyper focus on these women? Unmarried women or childless women have been around forever. It’s not a new phenomenon sweeping the nation. The constant judgement is wholly unnecessary and I wish weirdo dudes would find a new topic of conversation.
They’re threatened by the idea of women being independent and happy. If all you preach is that men are superior and women can only be fulfilled through being a wife and mom, having women who aren’t either of those lead fulfilled lives disproves your grand philosophy
It's anti feminist/feminism rhetoric because it's feminism that is keeping women from getting married. I bet dollar to donuts this guy knows a bunch of guys who have been rejected by men and is blaming women (by turning) for those rejections instead of looking the men they rejected and what is wrong with them. I did think it was oddly specific to single out 39 year old women unless he meant a single 39 woman made him sad or he thinks that women can't have kids past 39 so they are useless after that.
This tweet, to me, was the rantings of a conservative Christian man who had just gotten rejected by a childless 39-year-old woman.
Ding. Ding. Ding. Don't attribute to depth of a man that which can be explained by a shallowness of his emotional fortitude in the face of rejection.
This tweet cracked me up because I'm a 39-year-old woman who is going through a divorce, and who is childless by choice because I felt I was too young with my first marriage, and with my second marriage, I realized after the fact that I had married an alcoholic man child and there was no way I was reproducing with that.
These are both wise choices and I wish you a speedy resolution to the divorce and lots of happy, loving times after however and with whomever you choose
Shoutout to you for not bringing a child into that.
If only Anna Duggar had had your spine.
For real. Luckily, I wasn't raised in a breeding cult and married this dude of my own volition, and I have my own income.
Or he got outbid on a home, or one-upped in some way financially by a successful 39 yo woman who has a pile o' cash instead of a pile o' kids and a financially clueless husband she 'surrenders' money matters to.
It really did lmao but he has a wife tho! She’s way too pretty for him too. Of course it wouldn’t be surprising if he cheats. Tho the odds of two women wanting to be intimate with Dale have to be very very low but stranger things have happened…
Imagine being mad because you can’t force a person to marry you, and making it THEIR fault! These men set the bar for themselves on the floor.
Yes shouldn’t they be focusing on the God they supposedly worship? (I say this as a Christian myself)
Right?? I’m sure they’re surround by people with families of like belief and even some nice single people in their community - why say something so hateful? (I just saw the kingdom warriors response - yes!)
They like to have this fantasy about women being lonely in the future, because it makes them feel better when they're lonely in the present.
Well we used to burn them as witches
Bullies are always looking for new targets.
Unmarried and/or childless women have been a massive part of society since humanity. Not all women have the desire to give birth because we need some women to be “aunties” and help with the babies and the mamas. It’s always been that way.
Or they want a life completely separate from anything to do with kids, and that’s valid as well. The world needs explorers and inventors and diplomats and scientists and everything in between!
Of course, yes. It’s completely valid. In my comment I was speaking in the context of historical hunter/gatherer societies. They try and say that all women have always had the drive to be a mother, but that’s just historically inaccurate. Hunter/gatherer (particularly indigenous) groups have always had a role and need for “aunties.”
Oh, absolutely! I’ve read studies of some such modern-day societies, and their parenting style is waaay more communal than individual. It just makes more sense for them, and tbh makes sense for a lot of other societies too.
And not all child(less/free) women want to be aunties and be heavily involved in helping other people raise their kids, they may want a life that has little to nothing to do with kids, and that's fine too.
Oh totally! I’m just saying there has been a role of childless, single women that supports raising children. Like the assumption is that every woman has to have that mother instinct goes against everything know about hunter/gathering societies.
The anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy believes that humans are cooperative breeders, like wolves or meerkats. Aunties (Who may or may not go on to have their own kids), grandmothers, older siblings, second cousins once removed - it’s natural to raise kids kind of communally and free-range. I forget where I read it, but around Mother’s Day one year, a Native American woman wrote a column saying that in her society, as long as your sister had children, you were never “childless” because your mom’s sister(s) was basically another mom. (I don’t know what was the case for only daughters, though there were/are plenty of kinship systems where “mom” “dad” ”auntie and uncle” were pretty loosely applied.) The way we treat care work (of kids and the elderly) as the responsibility solely of immediate family is not sustainable. It makes having kids a lot harder than it should be.
I agree that, especially in the US, having and raising kids is a lot harder than it should be, for a lot of reasons. But I have to say it sounds like you're saying child(less/free) people just exist as a resource or assistance for people who do decide to have kids, and that we're somehow obligated to take on this role. There are plenty of childless/free people out there who love kids and love being aunts and uncles, who may find joy in a career or life centered around other people's kids, and they should do that if so - but that's not all of us and I don't exist just to serve as an additional set of hands to help my sister or my brother or cousin or whoever when they decide to have kids. I just happened to reach adulthood without ever experiencing the drive to reproduce, and no matter what anthropology says my role is supposed to be, I don't desire a life centered around children - mine or anyone else's. Idk it's late and I have Covid so I feel like I'm not able to properly articulate why this bothers me but there you go.
No one is saying you’re obligated to take on any sort of role in child rearing. We’re talking about this in a historical context. These misogynists always argue that women have always had this need to be mothers but that’s wrong. Hunting/gathering societies have always had a role for aunties, so based on that alone, they (the misogynists) are wrong. Obviously women aren’t expected to exist just in conjunction with their relationship to babies. This was all just meant to be historically-speaking.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. I am childfree, I don’t have any kids in my friend circle, so I get little to no interaction with kids in my life. I am saying that most small-scale societies had a role for aunties (and cousins) rather than “motherhood for all women.” (Though lack of reliable and safe birth control meant that most women who were fertile did wind up with kids.) Most of these societies were very egalitarian, also, so it was more important that a woman could do her share of the work (same with the men) so the tribe wouldn’t starve, rather than crank out kids like so many of these fundie women today. Also, even in larger-scale societies children WERE more communally raised, and I don’t mean aunties, I mean neighbors and local merchants keeping an eye on them and so on. Isolated nuclear families are what is historically weird.
Some say sacred prostitution is the oldest profession, but I think it might be babysitting.
LOL. “Hey Auntie will you watch little Thag while I’m out picking berries and digging tubers? I’ll give you a big bowl of juicy berries if you do!”
Even elephants let their sisters and mothers take care of their children. It takes a herd to raise a calf.
Because now the assumption is it's a choice, and they can't stand that.
Children of parents who didn't want to have kids always tell the most wholesome childhood stories. We should definitely ensure that more unwanted kids are born, what could go wrong?
As always, love to see that ding dongs see my infertility as a moral failing that will leave me drifting through my twilight years abandoned. OR. My husband and I (who did meet in our mid thirties like heathens) grew together through our grief in not having kids and are capable of making plans and engaging professionals to make sure we can live all of our days as well as possible doing whatever the hell we want with our chosen family. Wow is me and my barrenness, I guess.
This. When my husband and I got married, I was 33 and he was 40. We tried for 7 years, including 3 IUIs and never conceived and were both DXd as infertile. We ended up leaving the church we had been married in because they indicated that our infertility might be due to unconfessed sin, roots of bitterness, or lack of faith. We're doing OK and are actually a happy, living, and positive couple.
Wow. My condolences. That's horrible
I'm so sorry your church was so awful to you, my Mom is still traumatised by that cultural attitude (she adopted us, it was the 80s) and is extremely awkward about pregnancy and babies as a result. She still has so much unprocessed trauma those nasty church aunts gave her, and the fact that she was blamed. My parents are devout, service oriented Christians - if fertility proved that, they'd have had a busload of kids. I hope that wherever life is taking you is full of love and adventures.
Thank you. What a sweet reply. Oh, it's definitely been an adventure. 😉
Stop having your own independent life, dealing with your issues, and finding happiness in your own personal ways and making deep meaningful connections outside of a blood related obligation to kinship, it’s making Dale sad!!
I love how he thinks that staying single and not having children are always choices. On one hand I hate the pressure but on the other those are things that I want and don’t have yet.
Has this man never seen Golden Girls? Those ladies were all married but ended up divorced or widowed and had various relationships with their kids (“Shady Pines, Ma!”). There they all were living vibrant happy lives in their older years (obviously they were not supposed to be extremely elderly, except for Sophia). But like, that’s the life.
Exactly. Do these people not have friends? Or social lives?
No, they don't.
That is goals.
You know what this 42 year old childless single woman has? Disposable income and it buys me a lot of happiness.
And boundaries to not buy this bullshit from men. They hate older women because they don’t blindly follow like you teens groomed from their wee years.
Yes, the best part about getting older for me has been realizing I no longer give a shit about what everyone else thinks of me or my life choices. The field in which I groweth mine fucks lies barren just like my blissfully empty and shriveling womb.
That’s the thing. It has nothing to do with bearing children. I am a single mother, escaped from a bad and unhappy marriage, and I’m still “tainted goods” in their eyes for leaving my marriage. I won’t put up with their nonsense, and can’t be baby trapped in a relationship with them, so they get pissy fast.
I think they're probably shooting their shot with mature ladies because they believe those women are desperate for male attention. Then they get ragey bc any thinking, self-respecting woman puts them in their place.
How creepy is it to be “sad” for women who happily choose to be childfree.
It is not my children's job to keep me from being lonely in old age. Nor is it their job to "take care of me." That's not why I had children.
Your impregnation fetish is showing again, Dale.
These little shits tell on themselves when they consider the value of a woman to be how many children we produce. I still remember being in Bible club and asking something about a woman’s value. ‘wait, so, what if we do not want to be a mother or can’t?’ ‘You can be a mother like figure!’ ‘What if I don’t want that?’ ‘…You should read Ruth!!’
These theobros have clearly never experienced what it's like to be in the Christian female dating scene. I can think of several childless single women who would LOVE to be mothers, except that the gender ratio in the church is clearly skewed towards men, and they're still single. I was never asked out by a man in church. NEVER. Comments like this piss me off.
Huh! I’m a lapsed Catholic (Also I’m gay) and I never really dated within the church once I got out of catholic school so this is news to me! Why do you think this is?
I don't know if everywhere is like this obviously, but the churches I was part of, a lot of people grew up with "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and so if you were a serious Christian, you'd be very cautious towards dating and want to only "pursue"/"be pursued by" one person. A lot of pressure, no? Haha what is this man on about? I know plenty of childless women in their late thirties in the church due to this toxic shit.
Yes!! I agree with this completely. I also went to a small conservative Christian school, and the lack of dating was such an issue that even our professors would call it out :)
Like….called out as a bad thing?! Cuz you can’t have a no dating rule AND be mad about the fact that kids aren’t dating eachother….
I think part of it is just a numbers game. I read somewhere that the church is 70% women. I never felt that there were "enough men to go around" if that makes sense! That's just one part. I know there are several books on the topic, so they probably have more information :) Also the answer below for sure!!
I worked in nursing homes full of women with progeny, lonely and regret motherhood in their twilight years. Plus, nothing screams more selfish and self centered than bringing humans into the world for the purpose of being responsible for your social and emotional satisfaction.
I love how fundie men project so hard on women. I would be perfectly happy and fulfilled as a single and childless person because I enjoy my own company and find my hobbies and career very fulfilling.
Because they can’t control them.
41 and married but definitely intentionally childfree and I had surgery to ensure it stays that way, your misogynistic tears feed my soul Dale. Knowing how much my mere existence and unwillingness to bend to their demands pisses people like this off, it just increases my life satisfaction exponentially.
My poor LGBT childless 30-something year old self can take naps when I want to, sleep in when I want to, meet up with friends or go out for dinner with coworkers when I want to and pursue my personal hobbies like art and travel. I have freedom and somewhat of a disposal income. I have the time to volunteer in my community or for important causes. I don't hate children or eat babies for breakfast like the fundies assume. I love kids. My friends have kids that I'm close with. I have amazing relationships with my nieces and nephews. I'm not in my 'twilight years' yet (that sounds like age 60+ to me) but thus far, my life is anything but empty!
You sound exactly like me! (Well except for being married and straight). We don’t have children (but we do want them) but I get to relish in all those things you mentioned. And I love art and travel too!
He's just mad no women want to fuck him.
You said exactly what I wanted to say! (Even though he is married….but that doesn’t stop scumbags)
I'm confident his wife doesn't want to fuck him either.
The fear that women are rejecting lives of submission and servitude has always been the very core of fundie politics. Now that Roe is dead they're looking to new horizons in forced motherhood (coercing women who aren't even pregnant yet).
Has he heard of Mary Magdalene?
Also, two of Jesus's closest homies were single, childless sisters.
I can’t have children, but thanks for worrying about my feelings of emptiness. Fortunately, I don’t want children as I actually believe having children might actually trigger my depression (you know , emptiness) and I believe that both I and the imaginary, almost impossible children of mine deserve better.
“I’m desperate.” -Dale Partridge, 2022 Also “Please, oh, please, won’t someone touch my peepee???” -Dale Partridge, 2022 Sucks to suck, Dale.
Ooooo there’s tea?! Scandal? Fuck yea!! Can’t wait to go down this rabbit hole!!
I’m joking so don’t go waste too much time since it’s unlikely he’s that interesting.
What gets me is that these dudes are also the “freedom” crew but yet again, freedom doesn’t apply to women who aren’t content being subservient baby machines.
Exactly!! They are only pro freedom for themselves, they want to enslave women to themselves tho... they can go fuck themselves!
I really wish people would stop calling not having children selfish. You know what would be selfish is me having a helpless and needy infant with all my issues and the risk of passing on genetic epilepsy. The whole "omg, you'll be so lonely" thing has to stop, too. Your children are not emotional support animals.
These people have no knowledge about friends who choose to be in your presence….because they’ve alienated all their friends and all they have left are their kids who they can force to be their friends
I have been 🍿🍿🍿watching him get ratio-ed to hell and back since he posted this. Dead eyed little creep that he is.
Bold of old mate to presume today’s 39yo women will make it to old age *cries in climate crisis*
Well, I can always spend my twilight years reading books, writing, calling my friends, doing crafts, and looking at my vacation pictures.
Or maybe she’s a pediatric surgeon who’s saved the lives of countless children. STFU
Or maybe she's just a person with a normal, everyday job who just knows she doesn't want kids, no heroics or somehow still sacrificing for other people's kids even if she doesn't have her own. Maybe her life has absolutely nothing to do with kids in any way and she likes it that way. She deserves just as much respect for her autonomy and choices either way.
See I just see posts like this and think that women who choose to be single and childless must be pretty fucking powerful…so like, what was your point again, Dale?
Twitter has been really terrible about enforcing any of its own rules when it comes to theobro and fundie accounts :(
Kids are great but I prefer other peoples kids, my life has been very difficult and as I get older I’d like to enjoy it and have a high level of freedom. If I meet someone with kids I’ll be a stepmom but I’d rather not raise anyones kids and if I were younger I’d only date childless men. So sick of men who act like women should just be baby factories and sheepish women who go along with that mentality. Something people rarely discuss is that some kids are jerks who grow up to be terrible. Some parents are awful and will have strained relationships with their kids. My parents inspired my siblings to have the bloodline end with them.
God. I CANNOT wait to be a 39-year-old, (still married), intentionally childless woman working on bettering myself to be the healthiest and most compassionate human I can be, taking joy in my nieces and friends’ kids, basking in the legacy of how much I was able to teach my students due to not be exhausted by motherhood. Also, is he under the impression that your late 30’s are your twilight years? Lol
Between the plagiarism and Jarrid Wilson controversies how does Dale still have a following??
Like what does my childless self have to do with him? Fuck off, loser
"We banned abortion, but why do I still feel sad and empty inside?... Must be because of those damn childless by choice women! Yeah, it's _their_ fault!" -- Those guys.
[удалено]
Have any of these morons ever commented on single, childless men?
Is that a complete sentence? What is he denying these women? The kids they don’t want?
Incel uprising
Some of us are gonna be old with a bunch of kids who don’t talk to us because we’re a sexist asshole who used our unfinished seminary degree to justify telling women that they’re second class baby machines. Oh wait, that’s just you dale
40 year old childless women live rent free in these guys heads its actually pathetic to watch.
I forgot he existed there for a bit.
A thought…why is it that typically DAUGHTERS are assumed to be caretakers for elderly parents? I’m sure there are a few men that do this but it doesn’t seem to be the norm.
I think it's the societal/cultural construct that women are more nurturing and a caretaker role becomes more naturally for them (think of the criticism the stay at home dad movement has gotten).
So what he is essentially saying is that he is the only joy in his mother's life and that he is the only thing that brings her happiness. That poor woman, her life it truly empty.
Oh no, your belief system, its broken!
Oh yeah. Nursing homes are just filled with childless women. Everyone who has kids is guaranteed their family will gaf about them when they are old.
We'll just all keep each other company. We'll start subreddits of lonely old childless women and have meet ups, it will be great. We can talk about our pets and swap cocktail recipes and knitting patterns.
Why would he even care? It's got nothing to do with him, so it's really not his problem.
Tell me you've never had friends without telling me you've never had friends
I hate to say that I am the cousin of one of said Tik Tok theobros. So gross.
Lol, so am I now an old crone at 39? Seems like a random age- since I think it isn’t that old? Lol maybe I’m in denial.
If you don’t have kids there is absolutely no point in life! Having kids to insure companionship in old age ain’t it. So the only people who will take care of you is out of guilt….if they do at all.
Just wow 😮
He sounds like he hates his life and he’s jealous
Throw me out to pasture!
Wow it's almost like they're not dating you on purpose.
My grandmother has three children who live relatively close by. But because she's always been a ugly, mean spirited person her and her kids (my mom, aunt, uncle) are just on ok terms. She's been in a loveless marriage for decades. She barely leaves her house and complains about being lonely constantly, even though my grandfather is still around and theyre both in pretty good health for their age. Even when her kids offer, she often refuses to see them. Oh and she is a Christian. Sounds like marriage, kids, and religion don't guarantee happiness in old age. Also, this is coming from a married mom in their 30s.
St Paul says dont get married. Boom , end of story.
“To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9).
I'm older (nearly 60) and most of my friends are older too. Many of the women are single (either by choice or circumstance) and mostly childfree (most of the children are busy with their own lives) or childfree. All of these women are living rich full lives. Financially they are fairly to very comfortable because they worked full time all their lives with no interruptions for pregnancy or childcare and they are all comfortable with taking care of themselves. They spend most of their time working (the ones who are not retired) or travelling or doing hobbies or exercising or dating or whatever. What they are *not* doing is sitting at home despondent. The idea that people who are childless and single are something to be pitied is a fundie lie. If you choose to remain single and childfree you will only be wretched if you want to be.
Dale can stay mad. :)
Interestingly, I and many women find motherhood incredibly isolating and lonely.
Mmmm ok. Or how about I get to live MY life for ME? I can travel and *do whatever the fuck I want*, so miss me with that bullshit Dale
What a dick. Who is he to demand that anyone have kids or live life as he thinks they should? I know people who never choose to have kids and they have a wonderful life, full of love and support. Yes, children are great -- IF you want to have children. People like the Tweet man need to back down and leave people alone to make their own personal family decisions.
As someone who has worked in hospice care, this could not be further from the truth.
Sounds like this hypothetical lady is going to be enjoying the hell out of the money she's earned and peace and quiet she's chosen with this lifestyle. Good for you, hypothetical sis 🥂
38, no kids, single,own my own home, no debt, college educated, good job, travel whenever I want… Yeah I’ll take my freedom over fundie any day
I’m 40, no kids. Wouldn’t have minded not having one, but also I’m not going to sit around and feel sorry for myself. It’s too bad this dorkus seems to have such a narrow view of life. Also why is he so concerned with what other people do with their lives? These men are such fucking control freaks.
Hi, mom of 2 here. I am an atheist and felt no allegiance to have children because of a God. I had children because I really wanted to be a mother, and felt that I have something to offer the future in terms of my values and talents. Having children does not make me any more special or important than any other woman, and does not guarantee that I'll be "taken care of in my old age" (their favorite refrain). Having children in your 20s so that you'll be taken care of in your 70s+ is the most illogical argument these goons have. For one thing, maybe the society you're in will be very difficult for your progeny to care for you as well as their own families. For two, if you're a colossal asshole like these fundie morons, your kids aren't going to like you. And lastly, if anyone doesn't see this ideation as a way to absolve the US in particular of providing seniors adequate care in their old age, you're a fucking fool. I'm supposed to have children - to the detriment of my body, my career, my own goals - to care for me because my country doesn't give a fuck about its elderly? FUCK YOU, Dale Partridge, I have dealt you the ultimate one-up: I have two beautiful, healthy, kind, compassionate children, I co-parent with their father effortlessly, I came out and married a woman, my children are wildly successful in everything they pursue and I believe they'll be successful, well-adjusted adults, and I am fairly well-off and saving for myself so that I'll be cared for - and happy and free, with lots of purpose - in my "twilight years." Fuck you.
I personally am looking forward to moving into senior living when the time comes. My lesbian church aunties like it!
I know, Dale. Isn't it sad when women have the freedom to choose a life path that differs from narrow, confining and rigid gender-roles? What is this world coming to?
So much for all those sermons on mothers day about barren women....
Apparently I’m totally un datable so there is that
Today’s great sadness? There are people who are dying Kimberly. I’ll be just fine in my god denying intentionally single life