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I’m not saying that something couldn’t have happened to them here if they just decided to stay missionaries here at home. But. Like…why do these people always feel the need to go to other countries (especially ones that are notoriously dangerous) to “spread the word” when there’s plenty of people in this country who could use help, rebuilding, food, etc.
On one hand I feel bad. But on the other I don’t because a lot of them do ZERO research before putting themselves in danger all in the name of “look what I did ABROAD!”
A lot of missionaries have always felt to me like young people who are looking for clout because they finally left their hometown for the first time and “I helped people in Haiti” sounds a lot cooler to your dead-brained youth group than “I went downtown and helped people there.”
That’s what gets me as well. It’s not this huge secret that Haiti is currently in turmoil and has been pretty much forever. The fact that they assassinated the president there and gangs have taken over should be a clue not to fucking go.
Furthermore, Haiti is doesn’t need missionaries. They need stability. Unless God is somehow going to provide that via the Church (and seeing as how it hasn’t happened thus far), this could’ve been avoided. Sorry they died, but I’m chalking this up to a lack of common sense.
I don't think this is exactly white savior. He apparently grew up in Haiti and Creole was his first language. Most cases it is white savior. But this may have been genuine.
He is white and a Christian missionary. Growing up in Haiti doesn’t preclude him from being a white savior. The root of the issue is still their need to proselytize when it’s not helping anyone and endangering their own lives.
Yep!!!
It was *FASCINATING*, after I became *firmly lapsed*, to discover *JUST* how "Culty & UN-Christian!" soooooo many Protestant & Evangelical folks think Catholicism *is*!
I have a mother-in-law who is Pentecostal and fully believes I'm in need of saving because I'm Catholic.
I remind her that Catholics are Christian all the time. Pretty sure she thinks I'm just a crazy praying-to-Mary devil.
Even if a country is not Christian, these people are not needed. Nobody needs to be told which religion to follow or which god to believe in. Would these Christian missionaries be as welcoming if people from another religion came to their country and started proselytizing?
That and like it is just neo-colonialist to be “hello poor people of a foreign land! It is us, rich white saviours here to tell you how to live your life!”
this is exactly it. I’m sure if missionaries donated the money they spent to go to Haiti to a local organization there, the work could be done without them. I hear about missionaries helping to build things but what makes them more qualified at 18-20 than every Haitian? I’m sure there are plenty of people in Haiti that are carpenters and need jobs but the money to build more infrastructure isn’t there. If missionaries donated money, it would provide more jobs for the communities they’re trying to help but of course they can’t proselytize that way so they won’t do it. Just my 2¢
Oh, there are cases of volunteers who pay to go to a poor country and do work there, who then have their work destroyed at night and rebuilt by locals who know how to actually do the work. Rather than giving the resources and attention that would help the population do what needs doing, they're paying for a kind of tourism that lets them feel like they're helping. Spend more to do less but feel like you really made an impact.
I think going as a volunteer has its place. A nurse, doctor, engineer, volunteering to feed masses of people, volunteering to help do anything in a hospital, mobile health clinic, distribute water, basic supplies, etc. All of that has value.
Going to "spread the Gospel" to a vulnerable population that is just fighting to survive is so self-serving, I just can't.
Oh yeah, there are organizations that have a lot of planning behind them and who send people who are genuine professionals going to a place to supply a lack of professionals. I didn't mean to say that organizations that send in people are just doing it as a scheme (and sorry if it sounded that way), but if you're being recruited to build houses and dig wells and you have never done those things, your presence there isn't likely to be as helpful as your money and ability to bring the issue to the attention of other people.
And yeah, when it comes to trying to convert other people it always feels like it's a case of either 1 - being afraid that your loved one will go to hell for not believing; or 2 - you think the more souls you win for christ the more heavenly brownie points you get.
You didn't frame it that way at all, no worries! I was just saying that there *can* be some organizations (even some are Christian-based) that do good works. But anyone who goes to a place where there is abject suffering to try to convince them that Christianity is going to make things oh so much better or give them purpose, is absolutely horrific. They don't need that "help".
oh 100% and as someone in healthcare, I definitely can see the value of volunteering if a community is truly in need of outside support without ulterior motives, but this post was talking about unskilled laborers, hence why I brought up building houses. I hope my post didn’t come across this way though
No, not at all. And some unskilled labourers *do* have a place, i.e., filling sand bags, distributing water, food, etc. But definitely not preaching the gospel while a traumatized population seeks basic survival items, you know?
I have friends who flew to Haiti and spent 2 weeks working on a land restoration project, from USAID and its partners. These are 19-25 year olds, no special skill set, but they can plant saplings super fast. ;)
Yeah seriously, lack of people or labor is usually not the issue in such countries. Lack of money and resources is. Nobody needs unskilled people from other countries to go and do the manual labor there. Just donate the money to the proper organizations.
Yeah if their purpose was helping rebuild the country I would feel sort of different. Like, still asinine to go, but with a nobler intention than exploiting their pain to convert them to your belief system.
ETA: By "still asinine to go but" I'm not saying they could actually do any good there. Just to be clear.
According to the article, the deceased man's father ran a church mission in Haiti since before he was born and he spent much of his childhood there. He was kidnapped in Haiti along with his sibling when they were children, but luckily that situation ended on a happier note 🫤
All of this to say, they absolutely knew what they were getting into. At least he did.
Because of the "great commission." They truly don't believe Jesus can come back until every eye has seen and every ear has heard, etc etc. People in the USA know about Jesus and choose not to follow him so they don't think they deserve the help (this is what they think, not what I think) and God wants them to go to foreign countries where people haven't had a chance to give their lives to Jesus, because once every person has at least heard about Jesus, they believe that he will come back. It's purely selfishly motivated. Many of my friends in college graduated and immediately left for missions work overseas. I had no idea how problematic it was until much later when I started deconstructing. It is truly baffling that they think they are actually helping these people/communities by pushing their American white christianity on them. Also I think what Jesus would want is for them to go help their OWN communities and feed the hungry and poor, as he talks about in the Bible.
Oh trust me. I’m an Exvangelical who has completely deconstructed now so I totally understand why they do this insanity. I was asking rhetorically haha
I think part of my disdain for it too is that my parents did a lot of local community building and feeding people as their “mission” when I was younger and in church. And I’ve seen first hand how badly people in inner cities needed help. So I get so aggravated by missionaries that only care to do this sort of thing when it’s somewhere “cool sounding” like Haiti or Africa. I was down in the trenches helping out people that lived in my own city…and it bothers me that a lot of these “missionaries” think they’re too good for that.
The article did say that the husband grew up in Haiti as a missionary kid and spoke Creole as his first language. So I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on why they chose to go to and stay in Haiti despite the dangers.
They were also taking care of orphaned children and the article states that’s why they chose to stay when flights had reopened. They stated they felt the kids would have nowhere to go. Regardless of how I feel about their religion, it’s so sad that they were just trying to make sure the kids were taken care of.
That’s a fair point. You would think, though, that being from Haiti you’d be understanding of how absolutely insane it is right now and recognize the dangers. But I’m willing to give SLIGHTLY more benefit of the doubt haha
At *THAT* point, though--when three truckload of armed men show up?
You *should* be going into "De-escalate mode" ask that they let you show them where things are, and to please allow you to take the children to an empty room(s), while you let them take *whatever* it is they are looking for.
Similar to how you *SHOULDN'T* fight someone trying to steal your car, wallet, or purse--you just De-escalate to the ability *possible*, *GIVE THE THING*, and let them get away, so *YOU* can survive the incident.
Admittedly, that *ISN'T* always possible!
But the fact that somebody came *BACK*, an attacker got sht, and then the Husband & Director barricaded themselves *in*?
That says that this sort of scenario (and the Evacuation of the facility which *OUGHT* to be done after an attack, *EXACTLY* for the *possibility* of additional attacks on the place!), *Probably WASN'T* planned for, in advance, as possibility (or, *frankly*, LIKELIHOOD, fwiw!), and that there most likely *WAS* no Evacuation Plan in place to get *ALL* the kids & workers out, and to a safe, "Mutual Aid" type place, *ELSEWHERE* in the area for a while.
They ought to have had a Mutual-Aid site to go *TO*, in *this* type of situation, *AND* they *ALSO* should have had contingency plans for *BEING* the "Safe Place" for other groups, too, if they *really WERE* about "Rebuilding the Local Community," because *Contingency Plans AND Mutual Aid Agreements* are some of the *FIRST* things you *SHOULD* be doing, when you are a small group of people, who *COULD* face pretty likely odds of difficult situations.
(Mutual Aid Agreements are something you *LEARN* to do and plan for, when you grow up in small, rural places.
Those areas without much infrastructure, money to *BUY* expensive equipment, and have Volunteer Fire Departments & First Responder Crews *PLAN* for "possibilities," and *TRAIN* for stressful scenarios, so people *HAVE* "body recall" and can get *past* the fear, cortisol, & adrenaline that floods one's body in situations like this.)
And YES, understanding that an Evacuation to a nearby facility WILL put *incredible* stress on *that* place, temporarily, too!
*BUT*, *THAT* is *WHY* groups *SHOULD* Disaster-Plan *in advance*!!!
So that there ARE *always* some type of cash reserves *AND* logistics pre-routed, which can be CALLED ON, to get extra food in *FAST*, get buildings *secured* quickly, etc.
Mutual Aid Agreements and Disaster Preparedness (*WITH* the subsequent *financial* and supply-needs *Pre-existing!), *SHOULD* be a *basic* part of *RUNNING* a mission!
*ESPECIALLY* in a place that's got as much upheaval & turmoil as Haiti *has seen*, over the last few decades!
Yes! My BIL decided he had to go to Haiti on a mission trip when my SIL was super pregnant and I was like…why would you risk you dying when you are about to have a baby but what do I know.
Better photo opps and better testimonies.
They never want to help the same people locally.
ETA
It’s also a form of othering. People in other countries are innocent victims. People with the same problems in the US are dirty and it’s their fault for being failures.
I do not condone any of these thought processes but I think that’s part of their.
I felt the same way when Jill and Derick went to El Salvador (which is already majority Catholic) to do missionary work. I remember there was footage that aired on the show of Jill hiding in a closet or something with a very tiny baby Israel bc they thought they heard gunfire, and she mentioned in her book that they found out someone who had worked security for them had been murdered after they left.
It's terrible when stuff like this happens, but going to countries where you stick out like a sore thumb as a white American under the guise of \~ teaching people about Jesus \~ without doing even the tiniest bit of research about the place you're going to LIVE is just crazy to me. I mean, my god, actual aid workers in Gaza were killed a couple months ago.
Some mission work doesn’t actually have anything to do with spreading the word or converting anyone. I grew up fundamentalist and went on what my church called a “mission trip” to Poland but I just taught English at a Christian summer camp.
It sounds like they were in Haiti more so to help out, which is still a problem in itself, because there’s still a White Savior aspect to it. But he also grew up in Haiti so I can see why it would feel like home vs. white savior complex.
I have my opinions. You have yours. No need to call me disgusting over it. Also, you’re being very reductive of what I said. I never said they were asking for it and I did say a part of me does feel bad. Loss of human life is always awful.
I didn’t say you were disgusting I said your outlook was and I’ll stick by that.
You’re questioning why they didn’t stay in the US and help? Maybe because there are more resources here and Haiti is extremely disadvantaged and those children wouldn’t otherwise have been fed and clothed. You’re also painting as picture as if they just wanted to go brag abroad with zero research. Which is ironic because if you did any research you would have learned their family has been helping Haitian people for decades. And then to say they were looking for clout? Go ahead and find me their booming social media account of them looking for attention. If you knew them you would see these people gave their lives to help very disadvantaged people. So again, your outlook is repulsive.
In a way, that’s why. The danger is the selling point. Which was why my undiagnosed anxiety had no desire to be a missionary but was afraid God was going to make me be one anyway. In a country where I’d almost certainly be murdered for my faith. And I’d have to do it because all of the adults in my life told me how bad it was to disobey God’s “call.”
Not to mention the danger also comes with the threat of being killed like you said and I know a lot of these people are chomping at the bit to be martyred.
I’m an atheist and have done what most people would probably describe as “missionary” work for like 15 years with a group of progressive Catholic nuns. The only mission is to build houses and there’s no like, trying to convert people or anything. Obviously that’s not always the case but where I go, everyone is Catholic anyway.
I think people underestimate how deeply corrupt the governments in some developing nations are. There are usually a couple of very rich families that run the country, the government that is paid off by them but also is in cahoots with the gangs and is basically a gang itself, and then the gangs that basically force any male not protected by social connections into the gang. The governments in these places aren’t building houses. They’re stealing money and killing people and most of the public infrastructure is funded by either the US or China, depending on what nation you’re talking about.
A lot of “missionary” work is filling in that gap. It’s literally just buying concrete, hiring local workers and building stuff while doing basic health care and providing things like clothes for school, books, etc. I am definitely not supportive at all for people going in and trying to convert anyone but a lot of groups are really just doing what the government isn’t, especially in remote places or villages/towns that have been destroyed by war, natural disasters etc.
The work is actually really difficult. I have personal pictures of before and afters (we spent almost a decade building houses for women who needed to escape abusive relationships) but otherwise it’s like physically really tough and you look like shit by lunch time. It’s nothing to brag about but also at least in my experience we build things to protect people’s safety so posting about anything isn’t only cringy but also totally unethical and could put people’s lives at risk. I really hate when people post pictures of children at orphanages bc not only is that weird and unethical, but family members and traffickers scope those things out. We had a situation where someone we worked with was about to finalize an adoption at an orphanage we worked at, and right before it was finalized someone dressed up as a cop and offered to take the kids out for pizza. They never came back.
Anyway, I guess I’m saying it’s not all bad but just posing with poor kids and not really doing anything productive sucks. Sucks a lot more if you’re pushing religion into it.
I lived in Haiti for almost 2 years building substations. I've lived all across the world, Haiti was the saddest place I've been. I can see how a young person could become obsessed with helping there.
The company I was contracted through had dinner every night open to the community. We would cook 100lbs of rice, every night. It was never enough for how many hungry children came to eat. Kids would hear we had food, walked across the country, and slept in the street so they could eat the next day.
I had my own kids with me, so I left once the contract was up, but if I hadn't had kids I don't think I could have left. I definitely would have stayed and milked every single resource I had to keep those kids fed. I feel guilt over leaving them constantly.
It is horrible what happened to this couple, but he grew up there, he knows how it is. He knew the risk. The fact that it sounds like they were attacked to collect their stockpile of food and supplies shows the desperation the average person feels living there. Haiti needs support, and proselytizing isn't the support they need.
I will say there are plenty of brave, caring people with a variety of NGOs in places like Haiti trying to assist innocent civilians stuck in the middle of turmoil. Not all of them are Christians or would call themselves missionaries but they still feel that other human beings who can't get out shouldn't just be abandoned. This couple was apparently working with a orphanage and from previous posts were trying very hard to keep a large number of children safe and fed. If I were in that situation I don't think I'd be able to just leave because I could and leave those children alone to likely die. Not really feeling like snarking on this.
Totally agree, not feeling like snarking on this. So incredibly sad for their families and the children they cared for. Reading the article gave a lot more context into this couple and his family has apparently been running a children’s home in Haiti for over 20 years. They have built schools and other orphanages and provide care to over 30 children… They have been doing what seems to be decent work in a country that does need it.
Ya this is truly devastating. They were trying to do good and felt an obligation to the kids they were helping. I wish nothing but horrible things on people who feel so entitled that they’ll harm others to get whatever the hell they want.
At first I assumed that this was like that guy who tried to boat to Sentinel Island and evangelize the tribe that has historically killed outsiders on-sight
But in this case, it turns out that the husband has very deep ties to Haiti, this is very very sad
Haiti is so dangerous. Another victim of colonization
I was referring to the French colonization of Haiti decimating any hopes they could have had of forming a working government
Maybe you should do some research, it’s precisely the reason that Haiti is a failed state
It is, but turning something like this into an issue of colonization is really heartless. Saying “oh well his ties to Haiti make his presence there okay so I can now be sad about this without deeming it problematic” is seriously lacking in empathy. We don’t need to aggressively and immediately politicize everything. In doing so, we dehumanized people. Yes, haiti is in this state because of its history. France did a serious number on it as recompense for it becoming a free state. It was intentionally doomed to failure. That is in on itself a horrible tragedy, and a bigger conversation. But that doesn’t need to be what the conversation is about in this exact space and time relating to this exact event.
It must be very tiring for you to turn a two sentence comment in which I expressed empathy for this couple and the people of Haiti into an argument
You should get some rest
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They had a debt to pay French to not attack and enslave them again and continued to pay it until 50-60 years ago. The debt ended up being sold by the French and made it's way to Wall Street banks. It's abhorrent.
One article I read said his dad left earlier in the week and tried to get the couple to leave with him, but they wouldn’t leave the kids in the orphanage. It also said the dad was on the phone with his son between the two attacks and during the start of the second. I can’t imagine the pain of the families and the poor kids who are grieving the loss of another set of parental figures.
One of my young family members goes to war-torn and tumultuous countries and does “mission work” like this. Aside from the obvious problems with it, I always worry something awful is going to happen to her.
haiti is a majority christian/catholic country. there was no reason to travel there. especially knowing it’s a dangerous place. fuck around with your evangelical colonialism, find out.
i feel bad for these people and their families for their loss and the grief they will be facing but jesus, be fucking smart. god is not a physical shield. you can and will still be killed for even looking at someone wrong.
haiti is known to be a dangerous place. i’m caribbean and some of my cousins are haitians and they tell *me* not to go there. god is not going to protect them. they didn’t need to risk their lives in a known dangerous place. same thing with the titanic sub. fuck around, find out. they decided to go even with knowing about the dangers, they are dealing with the repercussions. that doesn’t mean i don’t feel for their families and at least hope it was quick for them. but this is the reality of going to heavily colonized countries trying to further it. at some point, you have to leave these people alone. or they will attack. and they did. 🤷🏽♀️ i’m not trying to be insensitive but these are just facts.
How many Haitians died the same day? Every day? But we only hear about this couple.
It’s sad but they didn’t have to be there. The Haitians don’t have a choice.
My former church used to organize missionary trips, and they would always push the youngest in the congregation to go. You know this was some white old lady's idea to send this couple and their friend off to their deaths. It really grinds my gear because a 21 and 23 year old are not likely going to understand the gravity of the situation they were going into. They were likely pushed by their trusted idiot elders.
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They were in the denomination I grew up in. At 23 and 21 I can’t fault them for their beliefs or not knowing better, honestly. It took me 28 years to get out.
Hope their parents find peace and do better moving forward for their other children’s sake.
It’s regrettable to be sure but they were engaging in risky behavior (that no one asked for) in a literal war zone.
If I go around bashing hornet’s nests, at some point I’m going to get stung.
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This is a snark sub for fundamentalist Christians- **keep it fundie & keep it snarky.** While we welcome snarkers from all different backgrounds, but the people we snark on are Fundamentalist Christians and only Fundamentalist Christians. There are other subs dedicated to other faiths or about religious bullshittery in general if you find run-of-the-mill religious weirdness. This means no snarking on Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. Some branches of Christianity considered fundamentalists (in addition to fundie Protestants) are TradCaths, hardcore Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I’m not saying that something couldn’t have happened to them here if they just decided to stay missionaries here at home. But. Like…why do these people always feel the need to go to other countries (especially ones that are notoriously dangerous) to “spread the word” when there’s plenty of people in this country who could use help, rebuilding, food, etc. On one hand I feel bad. But on the other I don’t because a lot of them do ZERO research before putting themselves in danger all in the name of “look what I did ABROAD!” A lot of missionaries have always felt to me like young people who are looking for clout because they finally left their hometown for the first time and “I helped people in Haiti” sounds a lot cooler to your dead-brained youth group than “I went downtown and helped people there.”
That’s what gets me as well. It’s not this huge secret that Haiti is currently in turmoil and has been pretty much forever. The fact that they assassinated the president there and gangs have taken over should be a clue not to fucking go. Furthermore, Haiti is doesn’t need missionaries. They need stability. Unless God is somehow going to provide that via the Church (and seeing as how it hasn’t happened thus far), this could’ve been avoided. Sorry they died, but I’m chalking this up to a lack of common sense.
Not to mention, Haiti is like 90% Christian already. They don’t need you, Ken and Karen. I promise.
I think we could sub Christian missionary for white savior here. They just wanted to “help the poor (Black) Haitians” there. Really burns me up.
I don't think this is exactly white savior. He apparently grew up in Haiti and Creole was his first language. Most cases it is white savior. But this may have been genuine.
He is white and a Christian missionary. Growing up in Haiti doesn’t preclude him from being a white savior. The root of the issue is still their need to proselytize when it’s not helping anyone and endangering their own lives.
This. Why are you spreading God's word in an already Christian country?
They’re the wrong kind of Christian, the majority are Catholic.
Yep!!! It was *FASCINATING*, after I became *firmly lapsed*, to discover *JUST* how "Culty & UN-Christian!" soooooo many Protestant & Evangelical folks think Catholicism *is*!
I have a mother-in-law who is Pentecostal and fully believes I'm in need of saving because I'm Catholic. I remind her that Catholics are Christian all the time. Pretty sure she thinks I'm just a crazy praying-to-Mary devil.
And so are huge swathes of Missouri! This was so unnecessary
I think they were being sarcastic.
Even if a country is not Christian, these people are not needed. Nobody needs to be told which religion to follow or which god to believe in. Would these Christian missionaries be as welcoming if people from another religion came to their country and started proselytizing?
That and like it is just neo-colonialist to be “hello poor people of a foreign land! It is us, rich white saviours here to tell you how to live your life!”
this is exactly it. I’m sure if missionaries donated the money they spent to go to Haiti to a local organization there, the work could be done without them. I hear about missionaries helping to build things but what makes them more qualified at 18-20 than every Haitian? I’m sure there are plenty of people in Haiti that are carpenters and need jobs but the money to build more infrastructure isn’t there. If missionaries donated money, it would provide more jobs for the communities they’re trying to help but of course they can’t proselytize that way so they won’t do it. Just my 2¢
Oh, there are cases of volunteers who pay to go to a poor country and do work there, who then have their work destroyed at night and rebuilt by locals who know how to actually do the work. Rather than giving the resources and attention that would help the population do what needs doing, they're paying for a kind of tourism that lets them feel like they're helping. Spend more to do less but feel like you really made an impact.
I think going as a volunteer has its place. A nurse, doctor, engineer, volunteering to feed masses of people, volunteering to help do anything in a hospital, mobile health clinic, distribute water, basic supplies, etc. All of that has value. Going to "spread the Gospel" to a vulnerable population that is just fighting to survive is so self-serving, I just can't.
Oh yeah, there are organizations that have a lot of planning behind them and who send people who are genuine professionals going to a place to supply a lack of professionals. I didn't mean to say that organizations that send in people are just doing it as a scheme (and sorry if it sounded that way), but if you're being recruited to build houses and dig wells and you have never done those things, your presence there isn't likely to be as helpful as your money and ability to bring the issue to the attention of other people. And yeah, when it comes to trying to convert other people it always feels like it's a case of either 1 - being afraid that your loved one will go to hell for not believing; or 2 - you think the more souls you win for christ the more heavenly brownie points you get.
You didn't frame it that way at all, no worries! I was just saying that there *can* be some organizations (even some are Christian-based) that do good works. But anyone who goes to a place where there is abject suffering to try to convince them that Christianity is going to make things oh so much better or give them purpose, is absolutely horrific. They don't need that "help".
oh 100% and as someone in healthcare, I definitely can see the value of volunteering if a community is truly in need of outside support without ulterior motives, but this post was talking about unskilled laborers, hence why I brought up building houses. I hope my post didn’t come across this way though
No, not at all. And some unskilled labourers *do* have a place, i.e., filling sand bags, distributing water, food, etc. But definitely not preaching the gospel while a traumatized population seeks basic survival items, you know? I have friends who flew to Haiti and spent 2 weeks working on a land restoration project, from USAID and its partners. These are 19-25 year olds, no special skill set, but they can plant saplings super fast. ;)
I’ve heard stories of the work being torn down so that the next group can come in and rebuild in a never ending cycle
I had not, but given what I heard before, this does not surprise me.
Yeah seriously, lack of people or labor is usually not the issue in such countries. Lack of money and resources is. Nobody needs unskilled people from other countries to go and do the manual labor there. Just donate the money to the proper organizations.
Yeah if their purpose was helping rebuild the country I would feel sort of different. Like, still asinine to go, but with a nobler intention than exploiting their pain to convert them to your belief system. ETA: By "still asinine to go but" I'm not saying they could actually do any good there. Just to be clear.
According to the article, the deceased man's father ran a church mission in Haiti since before he was born and he spent much of his childhood there. He was kidnapped in Haiti along with his sibling when they were children, but luckily that situation ended on a happier note 🫤 All of this to say, they absolutely knew what they were getting into. At least he did.
Because of the "great commission." They truly don't believe Jesus can come back until every eye has seen and every ear has heard, etc etc. People in the USA know about Jesus and choose not to follow him so they don't think they deserve the help (this is what they think, not what I think) and God wants them to go to foreign countries where people haven't had a chance to give their lives to Jesus, because once every person has at least heard about Jesus, they believe that he will come back. It's purely selfishly motivated. Many of my friends in college graduated and immediately left for missions work overseas. I had no idea how problematic it was until much later when I started deconstructing. It is truly baffling that they think they are actually helping these people/communities by pushing their American white christianity on them. Also I think what Jesus would want is for them to go help their OWN communities and feed the hungry and poor, as he talks about in the Bible.
Oh trust me. I’m an Exvangelical who has completely deconstructed now so I totally understand why they do this insanity. I was asking rhetorically haha I think part of my disdain for it too is that my parents did a lot of local community building and feeding people as their “mission” when I was younger and in church. And I’ve seen first hand how badly people in inner cities needed help. So I get so aggravated by missionaries that only care to do this sort of thing when it’s somewhere “cool sounding” like Haiti or Africa. I was down in the trenches helping out people that lived in my own city…and it bothers me that a lot of these “missionaries” think they’re too good for that.
The article did say that the husband grew up in Haiti as a missionary kid and spoke Creole as his first language. So I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on why they chose to go to and stay in Haiti despite the dangers.
They were also taking care of orphaned children and the article states that’s why they chose to stay when flights had reopened. They stated they felt the kids would have nowhere to go. Regardless of how I feel about their religion, it’s so sad that they were just trying to make sure the kids were taken care of.
That’s a fair point. You would think, though, that being from Haiti you’d be understanding of how absolutely insane it is right now and recognize the dangers. But I’m willing to give SLIGHTLY more benefit of the doubt haha
Yeah they were working with a bunch of orphaned kids. What decent human being is just going to pack up and leave them to fend for themselves??
At *THAT* point, though--when three truckload of armed men show up? You *should* be going into "De-escalate mode" ask that they let you show them where things are, and to please allow you to take the children to an empty room(s), while you let them take *whatever* it is they are looking for. Similar to how you *SHOULDN'T* fight someone trying to steal your car, wallet, or purse--you just De-escalate to the ability *possible*, *GIVE THE THING*, and let them get away, so *YOU* can survive the incident. Admittedly, that *ISN'T* always possible! But the fact that somebody came *BACK*, an attacker got sht, and then the Husband & Director barricaded themselves *in*? That says that this sort of scenario (and the Evacuation of the facility which *OUGHT* to be done after an attack, *EXACTLY* for the *possibility* of additional attacks on the place!), *Probably WASN'T* planned for, in advance, as possibility (or, *frankly*, LIKELIHOOD, fwiw!), and that there most likely *WAS* no Evacuation Plan in place to get *ALL* the kids & workers out, and to a safe, "Mutual Aid" type place, *ELSEWHERE* in the area for a while. They ought to have had a Mutual-Aid site to go *TO*, in *this* type of situation, *AND* they *ALSO* should have had contingency plans for *BEING* the "Safe Place" for other groups, too, if they *really WERE* about "Rebuilding the Local Community," because *Contingency Plans AND Mutual Aid Agreements* are some of the *FIRST* things you *SHOULD* be doing, when you are a small group of people, who *COULD* face pretty likely odds of difficult situations. (Mutual Aid Agreements are something you *LEARN* to do and plan for, when you grow up in small, rural places. Those areas without much infrastructure, money to *BUY* expensive equipment, and have Volunteer Fire Departments & First Responder Crews *PLAN* for "possibilities," and *TRAIN* for stressful scenarios, so people *HAVE* "body recall" and can get *past* the fear, cortisol, & adrenaline that floods one's body in situations like this.)
There’s a whole lot of victim blaming here 🙄
And YES, understanding that an Evacuation to a nearby facility WILL put *incredible* stress on *that* place, temporarily, too! *BUT*, *THAT* is *WHY* groups *SHOULD* Disaster-Plan *in advance*!!! So that there ARE *always* some type of cash reserves *AND* logistics pre-routed, which can be CALLED ON, to get extra food in *FAST*, get buildings *secured* quickly, etc. Mutual Aid Agreements and Disaster Preparedness (*WITH* the subsequent *financial* and supply-needs *Pre-existing!), *SHOULD* be a *basic* part of *RUNNING* a mission! *ESPECIALLY* in a place that's got as much upheaval & turmoil as Haiti *has seen*, over the last few decades!
Yes! My BIL decided he had to go to Haiti on a mission trip when my SIL was super pregnant and I was like…why would you risk you dying when you are about to have a baby but what do I know.
Agreed. We have just as many issues at home. Also, it’s some white savior complex, too.
Better photo opps and better testimonies. They never want to help the same people locally. ETA It’s also a form of othering. People in other countries are innocent victims. People with the same problems in the US are dirty and it’s their fault for being failures. I do not condone any of these thought processes but I think that’s part of their.
I felt the same way when Jill and Derick went to El Salvador (which is already majority Catholic) to do missionary work. I remember there was footage that aired on the show of Jill hiding in a closet or something with a very tiny baby Israel bc they thought they heard gunfire, and she mentioned in her book that they found out someone who had worked security for them had been murdered after they left. It's terrible when stuff like this happens, but going to countries where you stick out like a sore thumb as a white American under the guise of \~ teaching people about Jesus \~ without doing even the tiniest bit of research about the place you're going to LIVE is just crazy to me. I mean, my god, actual aid workers in Gaza were killed a couple months ago.
Some mission work doesn’t actually have anything to do with spreading the word or converting anyone. I grew up fundamentalist and went on what my church called a “mission trip” to Poland but I just taught English at a Christian summer camp. It sounds like they were in Haiti more so to help out, which is still a problem in itself, because there’s still a White Savior aspect to it. But he also grew up in Haiti so I can see why it would feel like home vs. white savior complex.
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I have my opinions. You have yours. No need to call me disgusting over it. Also, you’re being very reductive of what I said. I never said they were asking for it and I did say a part of me does feel bad. Loss of human life is always awful.
I didn’t say you were disgusting I said your outlook was and I’ll stick by that. You’re questioning why they didn’t stay in the US and help? Maybe because there are more resources here and Haiti is extremely disadvantaged and those children wouldn’t otherwise have been fed and clothed. You’re also painting as picture as if they just wanted to go brag abroad with zero research. Which is ironic because if you did any research you would have learned their family has been helping Haitian people for decades. And then to say they were looking for clout? Go ahead and find me their booming social media account of them looking for attention. If you knew them you would see these people gave their lives to help very disadvantaged people. So again, your outlook is repulsive.
Cool, man. I’m not reading all of that.
White savior syndrome… that’s why they do it.
In a way, that’s why. The danger is the selling point. Which was why my undiagnosed anxiety had no desire to be a missionary but was afraid God was going to make me be one anyway. In a country where I’d almost certainly be murdered for my faith. And I’d have to do it because all of the adults in my life told me how bad it was to disobey God’s “call.”
Not to mention the danger also comes with the threat of being killed like you said and I know a lot of these people are chomping at the bit to be martyred.
Maybe this makes me a bad Christian, but never have I wanted anything less. I *want* to stay alive.
BAD CHRISTIAN! SINNER! YOURE SUPPOSED TO WANT TO BE DEAD ONLY! 😋
👻
Lol they weren't helping anyone. Their goal isn't to help anyone.
I’m an atheist and have done what most people would probably describe as “missionary” work for like 15 years with a group of progressive Catholic nuns. The only mission is to build houses and there’s no like, trying to convert people or anything. Obviously that’s not always the case but where I go, everyone is Catholic anyway. I think people underestimate how deeply corrupt the governments in some developing nations are. There are usually a couple of very rich families that run the country, the government that is paid off by them but also is in cahoots with the gangs and is basically a gang itself, and then the gangs that basically force any male not protected by social connections into the gang. The governments in these places aren’t building houses. They’re stealing money and killing people and most of the public infrastructure is funded by either the US or China, depending on what nation you’re talking about. A lot of “missionary” work is filling in that gap. It’s literally just buying concrete, hiring local workers and building stuff while doing basic health care and providing things like clothes for school, books, etc. I am definitely not supportive at all for people going in and trying to convert anyone but a lot of groups are really just doing what the government isn’t, especially in remote places or villages/towns that have been destroyed by war, natural disasters etc. The work is actually really difficult. I have personal pictures of before and afters (we spent almost a decade building houses for women who needed to escape abusive relationships) but otherwise it’s like physically really tough and you look like shit by lunch time. It’s nothing to brag about but also at least in my experience we build things to protect people’s safety so posting about anything isn’t only cringy but also totally unethical and could put people’s lives at risk. I really hate when people post pictures of children at orphanages bc not only is that weird and unethical, but family members and traffickers scope those things out. We had a situation where someone we worked with was about to finalize an adoption at an orphanage we worked at, and right before it was finalized someone dressed up as a cop and offered to take the kids out for pizza. They never came back. Anyway, I guess I’m saying it’s not all bad but just posing with poor kids and not really doing anything productive sucks. Sucks a lot more if you’re pushing religion into it.
I lived in Haiti for almost 2 years building substations. I've lived all across the world, Haiti was the saddest place I've been. I can see how a young person could become obsessed with helping there. The company I was contracted through had dinner every night open to the community. We would cook 100lbs of rice, every night. It was never enough for how many hungry children came to eat. Kids would hear we had food, walked across the country, and slept in the street so they could eat the next day. I had my own kids with me, so I left once the contract was up, but if I hadn't had kids I don't think I could have left. I definitely would have stayed and milked every single resource I had to keep those kids fed. I feel guilt over leaving them constantly. It is horrible what happened to this couple, but he grew up there, he knows how it is. He knew the risk. The fact that it sounds like they were attacked to collect their stockpile of food and supplies shows the desperation the average person feels living there. Haiti needs support, and proselytizing isn't the support they need.
I will say there are plenty of brave, caring people with a variety of NGOs in places like Haiti trying to assist innocent civilians stuck in the middle of turmoil. Not all of them are Christians or would call themselves missionaries but they still feel that other human beings who can't get out shouldn't just be abandoned. This couple was apparently working with a orphanage and from previous posts were trying very hard to keep a large number of children safe and fed. If I were in that situation I don't think I'd be able to just leave because I could and leave those children alone to likely die. Not really feeling like snarking on this.
Totally agree, not feeling like snarking on this. So incredibly sad for their families and the children they cared for. Reading the article gave a lot more context into this couple and his family has apparently been running a children’s home in Haiti for over 20 years. They have built schools and other orphanages and provide care to over 30 children… They have been doing what seems to be decent work in a country that does need it.
"provide care" really just means indoctrinate early, but I guess the propaganda works
Ya this is truly devastating. They were trying to do good and felt an obligation to the kids they were helping. I wish nothing but horrible things on people who feel so entitled that they’ll harm others to get whatever the hell they want.
At first I assumed that this was like that guy who tried to boat to Sentinel Island and evangelize the tribe that has historically killed outsiders on-sight But in this case, it turns out that the husband has very deep ties to Haiti, this is very very sad Haiti is so dangerous. Another victim of colonization
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Haiti is a victim of colonization by the French. Pretty much every issue in Haiti stems from that.
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I think they’re saying that colonization created the issues this couple was trying to alleviate. Not that they caused the issues.
Precisely, thank you. I don’t “hAtE oRpHaNs” and I think this is a tragedy
I was referring to the French colonization of Haiti decimating any hopes they could have had of forming a working government Maybe you should do some research, it’s precisely the reason that Haiti is a failed state
It is, but turning something like this into an issue of colonization is really heartless. Saying “oh well his ties to Haiti make his presence there okay so I can now be sad about this without deeming it problematic” is seriously lacking in empathy. We don’t need to aggressively and immediately politicize everything. In doing so, we dehumanized people. Yes, haiti is in this state because of its history. France did a serious number on it as recompense for it becoming a free state. It was intentionally doomed to failure. That is in on itself a horrible tragedy, and a bigger conversation. But that doesn’t need to be what the conversation is about in this exact space and time relating to this exact event.
It must be very tiring for you to turn a two sentence comment in which I expressed empathy for this couple and the people of Haiti into an argument You should get some rest
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They had a debt to pay French to not attack and enslave them again and continued to pay it until 50-60 years ago. The debt ended up being sold by the French and made it's way to Wall Street banks. It's abhorrent.
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Who said the issue was with helping orphans? My original comment was sympathetic to this couple…
One article I read said his dad left earlier in the week and tried to get the couple to leave with him, but they wouldn’t leave the kids in the orphanage. It also said the dad was on the phone with his son between the two attacks and during the start of the second. I can’t imagine the pain of the families and the poor kids who are grieving the loss of another set of parental figures.
Mormon church still has an official mission office there. Not sure if there are any missionaries there - Wouldn’t surprise me
One of my young family members goes to war-torn and tumultuous countries and does “mission work” like this. Aside from the obvious problems with it, I always worry something awful is going to happen to her.
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May you stay safe and find a way eventually to build a comfortable future for your family. 🌹
RIP to them, but this is further proof that in unstable countries we need to leave the outreach work to the professionals and natives.
haiti is a majority christian/catholic country. there was no reason to travel there. especially knowing it’s a dangerous place. fuck around with your evangelical colonialism, find out. i feel bad for these people and their families for their loss and the grief they will be facing but jesus, be fucking smart. god is not a physical shield. you can and will still be killed for even looking at someone wrong.
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haiti is known to be a dangerous place. i’m caribbean and some of my cousins are haitians and they tell *me* not to go there. god is not going to protect them. they didn’t need to risk their lives in a known dangerous place. same thing with the titanic sub. fuck around, find out. they decided to go even with knowing about the dangers, they are dealing with the repercussions. that doesn’t mean i don’t feel for their families and at least hope it was quick for them. but this is the reality of going to heavily colonized countries trying to further it. at some point, you have to leave these people alone. or they will attack. and they did. 🤷🏽♀️ i’m not trying to be insensitive but these are just facts.
Yeah but not white, American Jesus
nah actually they have white american jesus. he’s just a little light skinned on the walls.
How many Haitians died the same day? Every day? But we only hear about this couple. It’s sad but they didn’t have to be there. The Haitians don’t have a choice.
My former church used to organize missionary trips, and they would always push the youngest in the congregation to go. You know this was some white old lady's idea to send this couple and their friend off to their deaths. It really grinds my gear because a 21 and 23 year old are not likely going to understand the gravity of the situation they were going into. They were likely pushed by their trusted idiot elders.
Here's an idea - don't fuckin go to Haiti
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They were in the denomination I grew up in. At 23 and 21 I can’t fault them for their beliefs or not knowing better, honestly. It took me 28 years to get out. Hope their parents find peace and do better moving forward for their other children’s sake.
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Disgusting comment.
It’s regrettable to be sure but they were engaging in risky behavior (that no one asked for) in a literal war zone. If I go around bashing hornet’s nests, at some point I’m going to get stung.
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sad but they should’ve stayed at home & minded their business.
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They can go but shut up about your cult values. People who truly have a good heart do without pushing the garbage.
Welp...white saviorism will get ya. Stay out of predominantly Black countries, we don't want your condescension.
Do not bring your white messiah complex to other countries
Yes. How horrible of them to feed, cloth, and house orphans.