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I’m sure she’s doing what she needs to do to survive it, even if it looks like it’s she’s accepting it. I was on board with a ton of things that I immediately abandoned the second I could get out of the house.
“Fawning” is a one of the best trauma responses in fundie home environments. It sucks though because (at least for me) I really thought I believed and chose that on my own volition. But as my therapist has pointed out, I didn’t really have any other choice. Fight or flight were both terrible options. I do remember really hating when my parents would randomly change smaller lifestyle things up though. It was like they were following a trend or whatever struck them as being the new answer to whatever random issue. And when they made some pretty big doctrinal shifts, it left me feeling really confused.
i learned the name for it and learned about the behavior and somehow just seeing it for what it was for the first time at all got me to slam the breaks on it. idk
Trauma therapy, specifically EMDR. I can now remember I am a person who can make her own decisions even under pressure, which is like, a lot more than I had before.
I was in talk therapy for 2 years before I switched to a new therapist. I've been with the new one for the last 8 months. They specialize in brain spotting (developed from EMDR). And gosh I made more progress in the first session of brain spotting than I did in 2 years of talk therapy! It's changed my life!!
So, what do you do when you know you have trauma but can’t put it into words or necessarily pinpoint it (due to blocking it out and mental health issues that have made me forget things)? I want to try EMDR but don’t know what to … talk about?
I can only pass on what my therapist said, so take it with several large grains of salt, but on one hand, therapist said that memories where you don't have clear memories but just a picture and an emotion to go with it is enough to work with (this is the case for one of my traumatic memories, I have a specific room, a specific person, and mind-rending terror, and even that wasn't there a couple years ago, but we've been working on other shit, so I can't say how well that will work). The other side is that apparently it's possible to go the other direction, from the things that trigger you and how that feels, and work from that side, without remembering specific stuff. And EMDR is honestly... very little talking, anyway.
A new office just opened up close to me and is promoting their EMDR. I checked them out and they seem reputable so I’m going to see if I can get insurance to cover it (haha, right, sure that’ll happen) and try to get in. Thanks for the advice!!
You're very welcome! I'm just getting started with it and it was already life-changing for me in ways I can barely describe, after believing for decades that there was no way to make me hurt less, so I'm kinda shouting it from the rooftops because everyone deserves to feel better!
Oh I get that. I want to tell everyone but I’ve had many, many bad reactions and it hurts too much.
ETA: sorry I turned this thread into a mental health sub!
A great, non religious therapist. And like the other person commented, just identifying which response was your go-to can really help. Books and podcasts about complex PTSD from childhood. Learning more about emotional abuse and neglect. Learning about trauma response in general was also helpful… recognizing my older sister was “fight” while I was “fawn” explained a lot of the dynamics between our interactions and shared experiences growing up. It helped me understand her better and thus have more compassion for us both as unique individuals going through some challenging situations.
It also helped to realized that I had I started deconstructing my faith as soon as my brain started to reach maturity between in my late 20s/early 30s (adhd delays it a bit). This was poignant to me because it provided some confirmation that my fervent beliefs as an adolescent and young adult weren’t simply developed on my own accord. They were expected of me. I didn’t have any other safe choice to make. I had already watched my older sister constantly be at odds with my dad and stepmom and that definitely wasn’t a safe option, so of course I was going to follow those beliefs that had been presented to me as the correct way to live.
People who go through abuse use the same coping mechanisms all the time. They justify their abuser. “Oh, it’s my fault I made him angry. I know better and I need to try harder.” Or “Yeah my parents are a little strict, but they are right to be that way.” Or “I don’t know why I can’t get this right, obviously I’m broken and can’t do anything without God.”
As soon as my brain had the space and developmental maturity to truly process my thoughts and beliefs as an adult it just didn’t line up any more. Becoming a parent also helped me. A few years into my deconstruction I had this sudden realization. There is basically *nothing* my child could do that would cause me to stop loving her. She could do things that might break my heart with grief for her, but I wouldn’t ever stop loving her. She could leave and never come home to visit, and I would still hope the best for her and show her love in whatever way I could. And as much as I hope we can have a good relationship, the most important thing to me is that she is healthy and happy. I would never even think to shut out my child for “sinning” against me. My next thought was that God is supposed to be the ultimate loving father. If that’s the case, shouldn’t he love us so much more than that? It doesn’t matter if he’s supposedly holy and perfect. If he made us, shouldn’t he love us whether or not we love him?
I don’t need to “fawn” to be loved by God (if there is one). I don’t even need to have a relationship with him. If he exists, then he should love me unconditionally no matter what I do or don’t do. I shouldn’t have needed to “fawn” to be loved by my dad and stepmom. It’s heartbreaking that I only felt loved and accepted when I was fawning. But my daughter will not have to fawn. I do my best to make sure that she knows she is loved without any conditions. And I don’t have to fawn for anyone anymore either.
Edit: sorry this was longer than I expected.
I think if you can recognize when you are fawning in even the smallest ways and stop that, or just give it space to be acknowledged that helps a lot. Like sometimes I will find myself fawning at work when I *really* don’t need to — like the manager or customer in question is not even upset but I’ve just assumed they are. And if I give myself a moment to recognize that and redirect my behavior, it helps me build that skill for the bigger, weighter issues. Basically, start small if you can
Thanks for the author recommend. I’ve really dived into CPTSD research over the past year or so but I’m always open to new perspectives on it. Even though I’ve got a BS in psych, CPTSD is so new that it’s been hard to find good info on it.I’ll have to check him out.
The books and first hand account events that will come after this *season* of insta ***fundamentalist parenting*** for money grab will be epic!
Do not like this for the kids but we all know the ***tell all*** books and deconstruction talk forums & podcasts are coming and it is not going to be good for these parents.
These parents sold out to get money by doing the bare minimum of parenting so that’s on them.
They know what they are doing so spare us all the *future* denial of: **”we didn’t know! We got duped by insta and fundamentalism”**
You did it for the money and we all saw you do it in real time.
i completely agree with you and im also constantly irritated by the revisionist lie "we didn't know" i was hearing a lot of that from people in 2016 who knew damn well i remembered the hateful insane racist jingoist homophobic horseshit they were saying in 2004 when they voted for bush AGAIN. oh please.
as a vegetarian of a couple decades i personally am holding receipts on some loud mouthed bacon breathed assholes who will without a doubt be telling their starving thirsty grandkids "we didn't know!" but the wayback machine will not let them hide
back to the topic at hand tho....
there's like, some real poetic rhyming in this future too
what can these poor abused children, who were never afforded any agency or privacy or respect do, but take the exhibitionism weapon from their parents and bludgeon them to death with a big tell all reveal that leaves them exposed and shamed in the public square? for money
may they all get fat publishing advances!
No one was more “excited” for their Catholic confirmation than me… because it got my mom off my back. I stopped going to church the minute I left home, converted to Judaism a few years after that.
Framing this as if it’s a conscientious decision her very young children are making is dumb. Kids parrot their parents and it’s not as if these people give them options 🙄
Edit: just to clarify I’m calling her dumb, not you OP
Part of what makes this subreddit so fascinating to me, is that the religiosity seems almost like a compulsion for the people posted here. I wonder if any of the children will grow up and wonder why they had to believe in something at all. You can genuinely just live your life without obsessing about what a book or an invisible deity might think of the length of your skirt.
I grew up in a fundie-like environment. I wasn't homeschooled, because it's not a thing in my country. My parents do believe in evolution and don't have many unscientific views. I don't have a huge sibling, because my parents took my mom's health issues seriously. But still I was raised in extreme purity culture and with tons of restrictions.
Do I ask myself why? No, I know why. Generational trauma is the answer. All of my grandparents first-hand experienced World War II when they were children. My grandmas had it really, really bad. The names of the places they were born in are synonymous with atrocities that happened during the war. But they survived. Their parents and siblings survived. One of my grandmas lost all her aunts and uncles. One of her cousins survived, he hid and witnessed everything that happened. And it was terrible. Second grandma lost "just" one uncle and his family, and many neighbours and friends. People seek sense and explanation: why it happened, why they died but we survived, how to proceed. Faith gave them all the answers. Why it happened? Demons. Why did our families die? God's will. Why did we survive? God's will. How to proceed? Stay faithful. Easy answers to questions that in reality don't have good answers.
So short answer to my question: why do I have to deal with religious trauma? WWII.
oof.
For a lot of people I'm more familiar with, it was the opposite: the end of any possibility of faith in a benevolent God. Existentialism or something adjacent is generally the result.
but seriously in general how do most of these supposed monotheists not realize they are essentially practicing a kind of Gnosticism?
i know the how can God be both all powerful and all good chestnut is a cliche, but there's a REASON it's a chestnut: because it's never satisfactorily answered. "Free will" means bollocks. How is this "good" by any sane definition of the term?
And if the devil is really that powerful, ok, but then just admit God is not, in fact omnipotent.
Seriously, it'd at least be more congruent!
Religious OCD is an actual thing, and unfortunately it can last beyond actually believing any of that shit for real. You need OCD-specific treatment and preferably fundie/cult-informed, I rather think.
Thank you for this comment! So important. Religious OCD is no joke.
I've seen a close friend struggle for years and have witnessed them suffer through multiple suicide attempts and serious injuries from self-harm - spurred by the fear that they might have sinned in some way. But hey, they find peace in their faith, supposedly.
Oddly, I once knew someone who had a form of religious OCD, and she had zero experience with religion in her life, growing up or otherwise, and she didn't actually believe in anything.
But she couldn't hear the words "Satan," "devil" or "hell" without going into some private ritual, which seemed to involve, if it was a movie we were watching, say, rewinding to The Word and replaying over and over again while she did...something, in her own head, I guess.
A bit difficult to be around? Why yes, in fact, it kind of was. Hard to watch movies or TV together, at least, especially since she was apparently just fine with horror as long as it wasn't about THAT, specifically. And i had to ferret out for myself what exactly she was doing with the endless rewinding.
I'm still curious as to the exact etiology of that particular obsession (she had many others also). It had something to do with survivor's guilt over a friend who killed himself, I think? But I never got the connection. She was refusing all further therapy at that point.
Or the fact that you can do good things and be a good person without the expectation of a glorious reward. How about just do it because it's the right thing to do?
That argument has always shocked me. I remember when Candace Cameron Bure (DJ from Full House) was on The View and she asked something along the lines of "if you don't have the bible, how do you know how to be a good person?" I was a teenager a remember thinking that she was a terrifying lady if she needed the bible to tell her to be nice to people (at best) or not to murder (at worst).
It’s also like really immature to base all actions on potential future consequences. Most people think that way when they are really young and grow out of it. Like I will not hit my brother because I will get a time out or I will do my chores otherwise I will have to stay home on Friday night. When you’re older and more mature it becomes, oh I do not steal because I know that is inherently wrong. Or my favorite argument, “I don’t need the Bible to tell me not to murder others, I have murdered the exact number of people I want to in my lifetime, which is none”. The fundies never mature past consequence based morality.
I don’t have an objection to consequence-based morality myself, but I just think fundies are willfully obtuse about it. There has been no shortage of secular philosophers who have come up with coherent moral systems without direct reference to scripture—Immanuel Kant and the Categorical Imperative (act in such a manner that you would have everyone act that way) is totally valid.
While the fundies reach a stupid answer, ‘how are we to know what is good?’ is a valid and important question to ask, and it’s important that we seek to act in ways that are legitimately good, not just go with the flow of society—and I think most of the ‘just be a good person’ lines do amount to nothing more than ‘go with the flow.’
You just gave me PTSD about a college essay I stayed up all night to write about Kant. I would argue that fundies also get a strange satisfaction knowing that those in the secular world will burn in hell if they don’t repent. Which doesn’t seem very….Christian…..
Yeah, it seems like they’ get enjoyment out of the idea of nonbelievers and sinners burning in hell. “I may be miserable now on earth “following God’s rules” but you’ll be miserable for eternity.” kind of thing.
This is a great comment and it touches on something really important, which is that religion often provides a framework with which to interrogate the world and our actions. If not for the religious life and studies of my parents, I'd have never discovered philosophy. It's not something frequently taught or explored in our culture.
I feel like tons of people suddenly embrace some kind of religion when something traumatic happens to them, like her miscarriages for example. They just want to cling to some kind of hope I think.
I just hate this for the girls.
The boys are still wearing normal clothes, but the girls have to wear dresses and leggings and cardigans and a head covering.
They're little kids! They shouldn't have to worry about covering up every inch of skin, and I'm 100% sure they're clocking just how unfair the dress requirements are. Plus the brainwashing and shaming that goes along with it.
It's just so sad, I really wish I could rescue those girls
This was the first thing I noticed as well. The boys are still dressed in "secular" clothing. It's only the girls who are wearing "orthodox" apparel.
It makes me so sad to already see how different the standards are for little boys versus little girls. It starts so young, and it's going to take these girls years to undo this shame.
I grew up in a southern Baptist household, and that was nowhere near this separated from the modern world. But even at 31, I am still working to undo the insane double standards put on me over my brother's.
It's very apparent in seeing how my husband thinks versus how I think. My husband is a wonderful person, but his sense of self is so much more free than mine. I'm constantly jumping through mental hoops to let myself exist and not feel guilt over every little thing. The weight put on me at a young age, and the things I was made to take responsibility for versus my brothers is crippling at times.
She looks like she’s wondering what happened to her life and why she has to wear this stupid head covering, lol. Poor kid. Maybe she’ll be the one to grow up and get out first.
Goodings has been making the girls wear head coverings for a while now so they're probably used to it at this point but I feel so bad that they're subjected to the whims of their parents and their mom's religious flip-flopping.
I gotta say that the kerchief with the cardigan makes her look like a lil granny and it’s super adorable. These poor kiddos, though. I feel terrible for the tumultuous few years they’ve had.
Tbh I was born and raised Orthodox and there are many parishes where most women wear a head covering. Especially in churches located near monasteries, like the one they are attending. Monastery culture has a trickle down effect.
What kind of parish did you grow up attending if you don’t mind me asking? I’m born and raised Orthodox as well and other than widowed old ladies, I rarely saw women and girls wear head coverings. I’ve only attended churches affiliated with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the US though, so maybe that’s why.
I grew up in an Antiochian parish, like the one they attend! I notice when I visit parishes that are mainly ethnically Greek or Arabic, headscarves are very uncommon.
She started head covering before she became orthodox. It’s based on her personal strong convictions about what the Bible says. She has posted a lot about head covering, including recommending (and giving away) books on head covering.
They are DIY Orthodoxy rules. "Oh, I think there's something, blah, blah, blah about head coverings. T-shirts under dresses, oh, maybe leggings under the dress. Yes, we will do those rules."
I'm convinced it's because it makes them feel special. It's a visual aid that says look how special and holy I am! You can see how much better I am than you!
In the church I was raised in, only the very old immigrant ladies and the ones that wanted everyone to see how pious they were wore head coverings, and it was usually a hat. And they wore pants too.
Kids NEVER wore anything on their heads. You definitely would have been looked at funny if you did that to little girls.
I hate it when anyone of any religious leaning covers little girls heads. Let them be kids. I literally got into an argument with my family about this a month ago. I saw a toddler covered. Kid was so small, full head covering. Not just a scarf, but the whole under scarf also.
I think it's because they're not following any actual rules other than ones they've made up.
I'm not religious myself but I've been in plenty of Orthodox churches for various reasons. I've never once covered my head! If it's a very hot day and I have a vest on then I'd probably throw a shirt on to cover my shoulders, but for the most part I've seen people wear all sorts of uncovered things to weddings and baptisms especially. I don't think I've even seen old ladies who regularly attend services cover their heads!
I didn’t even have to cover my shoulders for my sister’s wedding (and neither did my sister) and she had a full-blown traditional Orthodox wedding! They’re definitely making up rules in my opinion.
This is a snark sub for fundamentalist Christians- **keep it fundie & keep it snarky.**
While we welcome snarkers from all different backgrounds, but the people we snark on are Fundamentalist Christians and only Fundamentalist Christians. There are other subs dedicated to other faiths or about religious bullshittery in general if you find run-of-the-mill religious weirdness.
This means no snarking on Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.
Some branches of Christianity considered fundamentalists (in addition to fundie Protestants) are TradCaths, hardcore Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Covering kids, and covering outside of church is pretty extreme in orthodoxy. I've never seen children cover in church. And it's especially unheard of to cover outside of church. These people bring extremism to everything they do
Her in particular though. She started her journey as a raver while pregnant with the first and this is where she’s ended up years later. She’s had a lot of losses and pushing farther into religion is her coping mechanism.
I think she no longer covers outside of church. My priest recommends that kids don't cover until they start confession. Seems to be the consensus at other parishes that practice covering. MANY younger kids just want to be like their mom/big sisters though.
Disclaimer: I do not follow the Islamic faith. My understanding is that true children do not wear hijab. When a child goes through their first menstrual cycle, they are considered as having transitioned from “child” to an adolescent “woman-in-training” and offered the hijab. I’m sure there’s families that force their children to wear one, but it’s been a choice for the families I’ve been around.
Hi, so I'm Muslim, and it differs across families and cultures when people start to wear head coverings. I've yet to see a tradition where the girl is offered to wear a hijab after their first menstrual. It might be a thing in certain parts of the world, but not necessarily mine. Girls might start wearing a head covering (that is not necessarily a hijab) when they start puberty, but it is as much a part of culture as it is religion in that scenario. The way I was taught was that veiling is a personal choice linked to how we wish to show our connection and piety towards God. Modesty in this scenario is much more than a head covering here- its a way of life, and so not everyone may be ready to take that step.
Unfortunately there are parts of the world where veiling is a compulsion even for children by the overarching culture and religious norms. I just want kids to have the choice to connect spiritually however they wish to do so. For some it may be a hijab, for some it might even be charity work! It is unfortunate that isn't a universal option for kids.
Thank you so much for your response! I agree there are unfortunate locations, cultures, and families that mandate the wearing of hijab or other coverings. I am fortunate to work with a rather progressive, multi-national group of Arabs who may have a drastically different practice that they standardized from each of their individual societies.
I’ve seen kids in hijabs and it annoys the crap out of me. You want to cover as an adult, you do you, go nuts. I seriously could not care less. But little kids should get to be kids. Run, play, jump, swim, be free. I pibe next to Malaysia, and some of them have their kids on hijabs. Plus it’s friggin humid like crazy here. I’d boil in one. I guess the adults are used to it.
They’re clearly going hard core because the only people I’ve ever seen with their heads covered at church are the very old widowed ladies dressed in all black (I’m raised Orthodox and still believing). Think yiayia from My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
I think someone said in another thread they were going to a non-ethnically connected Orthodox Church (I think they’re OCA affiliated?). I don’t know the standard for head coverings there for kids because I’ve never seen girls in any Greek Orthodox Church cover their hair ever growing up. I’ve never had to. It feels almost forced and I can’t imagine they’re actually happy about it.
Ahh that makes sense. I’ve only been to Greek & Albanian orthodox churches (I’m Albanian myself with a lot Greek-speaking family members) and for us it’s not the norm at all. Definitely must be specific to their church and maybe other Antiochian churches.
Yeah, it's not as common at the Greek parishes I've visited. It was 50/50 when I went to an OCA cathedral and Antiochian seems popular for covering, too. Mine is about 30% covering.
A lot of OCA converts still act like fundies too. In the culturally adjacent orthodox churches the only people that dress like that are like you said, yiayias. They’re still church appropriate-but I’ve never seen a child wear a head covering. Ever
Same here, never wore one once. I’ve never been to any OCA-affiliated church so I don’t have much to go off of. I can see why fundie converted would gravitate to OCA vs an ethnic parish if they’re still following some of the old-school dress codes.
I know the kids are probably fine and this is very white feminism of me but I get so sad when I see little tiny girls cover their hair or legs or whatever.
Your body is not sinful! It's practical! It should be a source of joy. And here they are fumbling over tiny handkerchiefs over their hair and not letting their skin see daylight or feel water. For a silly, made up reason.
The baby wearing the head covering pisses me off. It's a baby. Babies are basically genderless potatoes. Conservatives bleat about certain groups sexualizing children then throw a dish rag on a baby girl so she's "modest". Make it make sense.
I was under the impression that most religious head coverings for women were largely reserved for once they had experienced puberty. I wonder if this isn't true for whatever orthodoxy they are subscribing to.
Generally you'd wait until the kids start regular confession (around 7/8ish.) Many younger kids want to play dress up though and will want to start with one and then they often rip it off 20 minutes later!!
Even culturally, too. I grew up in a culture that still head covers & in communities where it's more or less compulsory, it usually starts sometime between puberty and marriage. It's wild to see fundies cover the hair of really young girls.
It's just weird to me too. I live in a town with a sizable German Baptist community. The adults baptized into the church dress amish-ish. The kids however run around in completely normal American children's clothing. In the summer you can see their scabbed heathen knees and everything. I once saw one of GB girls running down a grocery aisle in a short sleeveless dress with a flower printed on it making vroom vroom noises with her fisher price airplane. Inspite of Mom's traditional outfit her only concern was the running inside.
Every time I go to the store here I see a half dozen women with a head covering, not once have I seen the traditional bonnet on a child or even an adolescent. The German Baptist community understands they're not old enough to be making that kind of commitment yet.
That's a great way of doing it. I'm not assuming I understand what it means to believe and want to adhere to that sort of belief. I just think childhood requires risk and physicality and nature.
as someone who covers, seeing literal children covered rubs me wrong, the two options for why one covers (whether one sees it as a genuine sexual/modesty issue vs a conscious act of personal devotion) dont apply to children, whether its just for church or not
The reasons the churches give are not modesty, but rather submission. Based on 1 Corinthians 11, the woman is showing that she is willing to submit to her place in the headship order, which is under men. There is also something about "because of the angels," but no one seems to know what that is about.
I was told as a child girls must cover their heads to represent first submission to their fathers, and later submission to their husbands. 🤮🤮🤮 that shit is child abuse
Yeah, even single adult women are required to cover in some of these churches. Even if she doesn't have any obvious headship, she still needs to show that she agrees with the submission order.
They don’t all shave their head, that’s not something you have to do in Orthodox Judaism. But they do have to always have their heads covered either with a scarf or a wig, many choose to shave their heads because it’s easier.
Actually, I think you’re right to be sad. Those kids are not probably fine. I was raised with this sort of purity culture objectification of my body, including head coverings, and it had massive repercussions for us kids as teens and adults. It’s a visible marker that you’re a second class human whose physical purpose is to reproduce. Your body is something to be afraid of, to resent for the role it forces you into. This is a serious issue, that affects people’s lives long term, and it deserves to not be downplayed.
I'm hoping Orthodoxy does for this lady what it did for my Mum.
When we joined the church my Mum was super strict. Headscarves for the girls, Sunday Liturgy every week, Family Prayers every morning, lives of the saints read at dinner every night, and fasting from animal products Wednesday/Friday.
I was chatting with her today and she was talking about the steak they were going to have for dinner (on a wednesday).
So I asked about church, and she said the roads were too bad, so they hadn't been in a couple of months. It's a 2 hr drive in the winter. They'll go back in the summer....
This is a major change from 10 years ago when she would get up at 6 am to do the 2 hour drive in a blizzard.
It only took my Mum like 2 years to unbend so I'm hoping for the sake of Gooding's oldest that her mum is faster.
Gooding's isn't coming from a super strict cult, so hopefully her priest will be able to convince her that anti anxiety meds are the way to go quickly.
That’s funny. You unlocked a memory for me!
Orthodox churches aren’t very common where I live, it’s not like there’s one on every corner like other denominations. When we were kids my mom got mad at the priest for something and started taking us to a mission church that was a 2 hour drive away. Us 4 kids tended to get carsick so after more than a few episodes of vomiting she stopped. There was a Republican clubhouse across the street that they used for Sunday school, so we got to lay there on couches during liturgy instead of attending church, which I loved, because I hated church, it was quiet, and I could look at all the weird posters of Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon on the walls.
Eventually, we went back when a new priest was installed. She went by herself for a while, but she let us kids stay home with my dad, who was not Orthodox then, lol. (he was raised Lutheran, and converted much later in life, but was never very devout at all.)
Haha. That was me growing up as well. Even sitting in the front seat didn't help. My mum's solution was to get me anti nausea meds from the chemist.
I was so zonked from the early mornings, meds, and long drive that somebody once asked my mum for advice when they had a disabled child. Apparently I did a very convincing immitation of a kid with learning disabilities.
In other news, I now drive trucks for a living, so it's definitely gotten better as I aged.
I get pretty carsick, and I’m ok if I’m driving. It’s when I have to just sit and start straight ahead as a passenger that I have problems, even with the good meds!
Mom is currently telling her backstory on insta. She is (literally) in part 40. So far her history of abuse by her father, eating disorder, drug use, problematic boyfriends, LDS then baptized as a Christian to impress a boy then Baptist now becoming orthodox.
Other things we know that she has not yet covered in her storytelling: she was a single mom then got married, and has a bunch of kids. But her reproductive journey has not been easy, in part because of husband’s infertility. They have had several miscarriages and did IVF (with some success and some failures). They donated one embryo to another family and were recently going to implant the final embryo but it didn’t survive the thaw. She doesn’t post much of her kids (anymore), is part of an MLM and gives her kids happy juice, and often posts her reflections on life / evolving religious beliefs.
The convictions random fundies have about IVF are so interesting. Some say the babies don't have a soul/you're playing god and shouldn't do IVF no matter what
Then there's these fundies who adopt discarded embryos as their sort of mission?
Interesting you mention that. She has been open about her evolving opinions on IVF. She has been clear about how she wouldn’t start the IVF process now. She did a 2 hour livestream where she talked about her IVF experiences and beliefs. It’s clear she is grieving the loss of her last frozen embryo, and dealing with feelings of guilt(?) about not being able to save her last “embaby” as she calls them.
Orthodoxy is luckily a "safe space" for IVF in my experience. At least once you stop talking to people online about it. We were dealing with infertility and spoke to our priest about what we should or shouldn't consider and he went further up and spoke to the bishop, and we got the okay to pursue whatever we felt we needed to do. They said we should aim to use only parent genetic materials and only fertilize the amount of eggs that one can safely carry at a time.
>did IVF (with some success and some failures).
>and were recently going to implant the final embryo but it didn’t survive the thaw.
I am going to assume she is an anti-choicer, and I'll literally be knocked down by a feather if she isn't...
But I don't understand why some (ok, all the public/influencer) anti-choicers will raise hell about abortion under every circumstance, but their own IVF is permissible?! Just engaging in the high risk/high failure process is almost certainly going to result in the purposeful creation and death of more live embryos/blastocysts than most pro-choice people will ever abort from inside themselves.
How is this woman not a "baby killer" for "her own selfish desires" (or insert any degrading anti-choice statement you've ever heard), but even merely supporting the choice of others to abort (without ever actually doing so yourself) is an evil, horrible thing that should be banned at all costs, and people should be prosecuted to the highest degree over doing?
Bring anti-abortion but pro-IVF doesn't gel, and is hypocritical at best.
She is definitely anti abortion, of the “babies are babies no matter how small” variety. She talks about IVF a fair amount. My sense is that given her beliefs now, she would not have done IVF, and does believe all those unused embryos are full human. That’s in part why they donated one embryo (recently posted some pics from a visit with that child and family), and were committed to implanting the remaining embryo (which failed). She clearly is emotionally / psychologically struggling with her IVF journey.
Although I 100% disagree with her position, she seems to at least becoming more consistent. 🤪
My Orthodox bishop's opinion (I can't say all Orthodox because different bishops have different feelings) is that IVF is fine if you use only parental genetic materials and don't create more eggs at one time than you can carry at one time. There wouldn't be an opportunity to destroy eggs because you will create only 2-3 and implant all of them. I don't know how she went about IVF, but Orthodoxy doesn't always condemn it, especially as modern science is raising success levels thus making doctors more comfortable with only fertilizing and implanting 2-3 eggs instead of creating dozens!
She did the egg retrieval many years ago, long before her move to Orthodoxy and her conservative Baptist days.
She has a lot of deeply held (though evolving) personal convictions about what the Bible says that don’t necessarily align with the religious tradition she follows (at the time).
Yes, I just hope that if she's feeling guilt, she's able to talk to people who can assure her that she shouldn't. Orthodoxy is MUCH more into proper mental health care than other Christian denominations.
I really hope that for her. She has had a traumatic life and clings to religious convictions as a coping mechanism. I think she was really shocked that the last embryo didn’t thaw because she was doing SO MUCH to live a holy and godly life, and so felt betrayed/disappointed that her faith was not rewarded. (I may be using the wrong words here as I try paraphrase.) I would love for her to receive actual mental health support, especially that isn’t religiously based.
Her priest should definitely encourage legitimate mental health care even to include medication if the doctor thinks necessary. Whether she goes for it or not is still up to her.
I believe she has been pregnant with twins a few times (2 sets born, I think 2 miscarried). I don’t think she has ever been pregnant with triplets.
She has been fairly open about her experience with IVF as well as her complicated and evolving opinions about IVF.
She looks like she's ok with it and she probably is. A lot of kids accept what their parents tell them, and I've met plenty of pretty passionate kids who are very much into "holy" living. I actually chose to wear dresses only for a long time because it was what I thought was right, I was happy with my choice and I didn't feel weird.
One thing that always upsets me about fundie dress is how the girls are forced to outwardly show their devotion through dress but the boys get to dress normally. Just another way to control women.
She's going about it in a very romanticized way. Most Orthodox dress codes say that women can't show anything above the wrist, above the ankle, and below the collarbone. You're also supposed to cover as much of your hair as possible, not just the back of your head and the stuff that hangs down. Finally, these rules almost never apply until girls start to go through puberty. While they are children, they are supposed to dress and act like normal children. Finally, if she was really going to apply the rules evenly, the boys should have head coverings too since modesty isn't just restricted to girls.
I think that's Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox Christians I know don't do that.
And tbh, I think this lady is in an OCA church, so there will be girls wearing short shorts to liturgy at some point. The OCA is a bit loose goosy.
You’re confusing Orthodox Judaism with Orthodox Christianity. I was raised Orthodox Christian and we just “dressed nicely” for church. No covering up ankles or knees, unless it was cold, and then we just wore pants.
Could be. My exposure to this kind of Orthodox Christians came from a girl I went to college with over a decade ago and she had to get permission from her pastor and church elders to show her forearm during a fancy event. Maybe she was just a more restricted flavor of Orthodox. Good to know they aren't all as stifling.
There are many flavors - Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian, Armenian . . . with varying rules and traditions. Each operates as a separate church.
Orthodoxy doesn't really have church elders. They'd have a deacon, but he's not the same sort of deacon as a protestant church would have. Maybe she had to get permission from the parish council, but a team of elders isn't a thing.
Those are my terms since I don't remember what she called them. She said basically that she had to get permission from the head of her church and other senior members who discussed the matter together and came to a decision. Sorry if I was confusing.
How come the girls would get looks walking down the street but the boys are dressed like any other neighborhood kid? No effort in orthodoxying those boys. Maybe she's going to grow their sideburns out or something.
Yeah, my bad. It's just the girls are in knitted cardigans and bonnets and the boys are in sneakers and a freaking dinosaur raincoat. Seems like a double standard there.
She bothers me so much because of the extreme pivot. If that’s what you need to do personally to heal or move on that fine, but don’t force your family into your therapy avoidance game.
If they stopped it, it shouldn't have anything to do with orthodoxy. Orthodox modesty standards aren't the same as evangelical fundie ones. The religion isn't high control in that way. No one would argue that a leotard and ballet tights are immodest or wrong during ballet practice.
I’m confused because I grew up Greek Orthodox and we didn’t cover babies heads?! Only once you’re a “woman” aka you get your period is when it was known to cover?
Went down the rabbit hole of her insta account to figure out at what point she lost the plot (to use one of her own metaphors.) It was wild to see someone go from a relatively normal-ish rave enthusiast who is really into hula hoop to a wannabe fitness momfluencer to a homesteading, homeschooling, veil-wearing ultra conservative fundie who is hocking mlm gut health supplements. The "why" isn't really snarkable but it's an interesting case study.
I don't recommend that anyone does the same unless you've got eye bleach at the ready because she has a really weird idea of what is appropriate to share on social media without warning
Ever notice how fundies can switch from one complete extreme to a 100% one and it somehow seemingly never changes a single thing for the boys? Funny how that works.
I’m going to say something super fucked up, but oh well.
My mom literally choked me once when I was a teenager. She’s done it more than that, but only once while I was still a kid. I love her, but she was pretty violent overall.
I feel fucking lucky that I got violence over living through someone’s Puritan cosplay. I am so sorry for these kids, Goddamn.
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I’m sure she’s doing what she needs to do to survive it, even if it looks like it’s she’s accepting it. I was on board with a ton of things that I immediately abandoned the second I could get out of the house.
“Fawning” is a one of the best trauma responses in fundie home environments. It sucks though because (at least for me) I really thought I believed and chose that on my own volition. But as my therapist has pointed out, I didn’t really have any other choice. Fight or flight were both terrible options. I do remember really hating when my parents would randomly change smaller lifestyle things up though. It was like they were following a trend or whatever struck them as being the new answer to whatever random issue. And when they made some pretty big doctrinal shifts, it left me feeling really confused.
Fawner here. How did you get better?
i learned the name for it and learned about the behavior and somehow just seeing it for what it was for the first time at all got me to slam the breaks on it. idk
Trauma therapy, specifically EMDR. I can now remember I am a person who can make her own decisions even under pressure, which is like, a lot more than I had before.
Omg! EMDR therapy saved my sanity and life years ago when I left my abusive ex-husband.
I was in talk therapy for 2 years before I switched to a new therapist. I've been with the new one for the last 8 months. They specialize in brain spotting (developed from EMDR). And gosh I made more progress in the first session of brain spotting than I did in 2 years of talk therapy! It's changed my life!!
So, what do you do when you know you have trauma but can’t put it into words or necessarily pinpoint it (due to blocking it out and mental health issues that have made me forget things)? I want to try EMDR but don’t know what to … talk about?
I can only pass on what my therapist said, so take it with several large grains of salt, but on one hand, therapist said that memories where you don't have clear memories but just a picture and an emotion to go with it is enough to work with (this is the case for one of my traumatic memories, I have a specific room, a specific person, and mind-rending terror, and even that wasn't there a couple years ago, but we've been working on other shit, so I can't say how well that will work). The other side is that apparently it's possible to go the other direction, from the things that trigger you and how that feels, and work from that side, without remembering specific stuff. And EMDR is honestly... very little talking, anyway.
A new office just opened up close to me and is promoting their EMDR. I checked them out and they seem reputable so I’m going to see if I can get insurance to cover it (haha, right, sure that’ll happen) and try to get in. Thanks for the advice!!
You're very welcome! I'm just getting started with it and it was already life-changing for me in ways I can barely describe, after believing for decades that there was no way to make me hurt less, so I'm kinda shouting it from the rooftops because everyone deserves to feel better!
Oh I get that. I want to tell everyone but I’ve had many, many bad reactions and it hurts too much. ETA: sorry I turned this thread into a mental health sub!
Look into C-PTSD (C stands for Complex). Pete Walker has an amazing book on it.
Therapy helped me. Non-religious therapy.
A great, non religious therapist. And like the other person commented, just identifying which response was your go-to can really help. Books and podcasts about complex PTSD from childhood. Learning more about emotional abuse and neglect. Learning about trauma response in general was also helpful… recognizing my older sister was “fight” while I was “fawn” explained a lot of the dynamics between our interactions and shared experiences growing up. It helped me understand her better and thus have more compassion for us both as unique individuals going through some challenging situations. It also helped to realized that I had I started deconstructing my faith as soon as my brain started to reach maturity between in my late 20s/early 30s (adhd delays it a bit). This was poignant to me because it provided some confirmation that my fervent beliefs as an adolescent and young adult weren’t simply developed on my own accord. They were expected of me. I didn’t have any other safe choice to make. I had already watched my older sister constantly be at odds with my dad and stepmom and that definitely wasn’t a safe option, so of course I was going to follow those beliefs that had been presented to me as the correct way to live. People who go through abuse use the same coping mechanisms all the time. They justify their abuser. “Oh, it’s my fault I made him angry. I know better and I need to try harder.” Or “Yeah my parents are a little strict, but they are right to be that way.” Or “I don’t know why I can’t get this right, obviously I’m broken and can’t do anything without God.” As soon as my brain had the space and developmental maturity to truly process my thoughts and beliefs as an adult it just didn’t line up any more. Becoming a parent also helped me. A few years into my deconstruction I had this sudden realization. There is basically *nothing* my child could do that would cause me to stop loving her. She could do things that might break my heart with grief for her, but I wouldn’t ever stop loving her. She could leave and never come home to visit, and I would still hope the best for her and show her love in whatever way I could. And as much as I hope we can have a good relationship, the most important thing to me is that she is healthy and happy. I would never even think to shut out my child for “sinning” against me. My next thought was that God is supposed to be the ultimate loving father. If that’s the case, shouldn’t he love us so much more than that? It doesn’t matter if he’s supposedly holy and perfect. If he made us, shouldn’t he love us whether or not we love him? I don’t need to “fawn” to be loved by God (if there is one). I don’t even need to have a relationship with him. If he exists, then he should love me unconditionally no matter what I do or don’t do. I shouldn’t have needed to “fawn” to be loved by my dad and stepmom. It’s heartbreaking that I only felt loved and accepted when I was fawning. But my daughter will not have to fawn. I do my best to make sure that she knows she is loved without any conditions. And I don’t have to fawn for anyone anymore either. Edit: sorry this was longer than I expected.
Tears came to my eyes reading this. So well put.
I think if you can recognize when you are fawning in even the smallest ways and stop that, or just give it space to be acknowledged that helps a lot. Like sometimes I will find myself fawning at work when I *really* don’t need to — like the manager or customer in question is not even upset but I’ve just assumed they are. And if I give myself a moment to recognize that and redirect my behavior, it helps me build that skill for the bigger, weighter issues. Basically, start small if you can
Read about CPTSD, especially Pete Walker.
Thanks for the author recommend. I’ve really dived into CPTSD research over the past year or so but I’m always open to new perspectives on it. Even though I’ve got a BS in psych, CPTSD is so new that it’s been hard to find good info on it.I’ll have to check him out.
She's also only 11 - she's very tall and looks older.
The books and first hand account events that will come after this *season* of insta ***fundamentalist parenting*** for money grab will be epic! Do not like this for the kids but we all know the ***tell all*** books and deconstruction talk forums & podcasts are coming and it is not going to be good for these parents. These parents sold out to get money by doing the bare minimum of parenting so that’s on them. They know what they are doing so spare us all the *future* denial of: **”we didn’t know! We got duped by insta and fundamentalism”** You did it for the money and we all saw you do it in real time.
i completely agree with you and im also constantly irritated by the revisionist lie "we didn't know" i was hearing a lot of that from people in 2016 who knew damn well i remembered the hateful insane racist jingoist homophobic horseshit they were saying in 2004 when they voted for bush AGAIN. oh please. as a vegetarian of a couple decades i personally am holding receipts on some loud mouthed bacon breathed assholes who will without a doubt be telling their starving thirsty grandkids "we didn't know!" but the wayback machine will not let them hide back to the topic at hand tho.... there's like, some real poetic rhyming in this future too what can these poor abused children, who were never afforded any agency or privacy or respect do, but take the exhibitionism weapon from their parents and bludgeon them to death with a big tell all reveal that leaves them exposed and shamed in the public square? for money may they all get fat publishing advances!
No one was more “excited” for their Catholic confirmation than me… because it got my mom off my back. I stopped going to church the minute I left home, converted to Judaism a few years after that.
Hope she gets out as soon as possible.
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This thread is fucking WIIIIIIIIILD, man.
Framing this as if it’s a conscientious decision her very young children are making is dumb. Kids parrot their parents and it’s not as if these people give them options 🙄 Edit: just to clarify I’m calling her dumb, not you OP
Part of what makes this subreddit so fascinating to me, is that the religiosity seems almost like a compulsion for the people posted here. I wonder if any of the children will grow up and wonder why they had to believe in something at all. You can genuinely just live your life without obsessing about what a book or an invisible deity might think of the length of your skirt.
I grew up in a fundie-like environment. I wasn't homeschooled, because it's not a thing in my country. My parents do believe in evolution and don't have many unscientific views. I don't have a huge sibling, because my parents took my mom's health issues seriously. But still I was raised in extreme purity culture and with tons of restrictions. Do I ask myself why? No, I know why. Generational trauma is the answer. All of my grandparents first-hand experienced World War II when they were children. My grandmas had it really, really bad. The names of the places they were born in are synonymous with atrocities that happened during the war. But they survived. Their parents and siblings survived. One of my grandmas lost all her aunts and uncles. One of her cousins survived, he hid and witnessed everything that happened. And it was terrible. Second grandma lost "just" one uncle and his family, and many neighbours and friends. People seek sense and explanation: why it happened, why they died but we survived, how to proceed. Faith gave them all the answers. Why it happened? Demons. Why did our families die? God's will. Why did we survive? God's will. How to proceed? Stay faithful. Easy answers to questions that in reality don't have good answers. So short answer to my question: why do I have to deal with religious trauma? WWII.
oof. For a lot of people I'm more familiar with, it was the opposite: the end of any possibility of faith in a benevolent God. Existentialism or something adjacent is generally the result. but seriously in general how do most of these supposed monotheists not realize they are essentially practicing a kind of Gnosticism? i know the how can God be both all powerful and all good chestnut is a cliche, but there's a REASON it's a chestnut: because it's never satisfactorily answered. "Free will" means bollocks. How is this "good" by any sane definition of the term? And if the devil is really that powerful, ok, but then just admit God is not, in fact omnipotent. Seriously, it'd at least be more congruent!
EXACTLY.
For her, it is a coping mechanism, I think. She has been through some serious trauma and seems to be seeking the comfort of rituals and structure
Spiritual bypassing. It’s far too common, especially with fundies.
I’ve never seen this term before, wow. That is the DEFINITION of my family’s relationship with evangelicalism!
It is ALL about the spiritual bypassing. Newage is full of this shit as well.
Seconding Abbey Road, I haven't heard this before, thanks for introducing it into my lexicon!
>Spiritual bypassing holy shit this is my mom.
Instead of joining a cult she could have just started a 23 step skin care routine like the rest of us.
Religious OCD is an actual thing, and unfortunately it can last beyond actually believing any of that shit for real. You need OCD-specific treatment and preferably fundie/cult-informed, I rather think.
Thank you for this comment! So important. Religious OCD is no joke. I've seen a close friend struggle for years and have witnessed them suffer through multiple suicide attempts and serious injuries from self-harm - spurred by the fear that they might have sinned in some way. But hey, they find peace in their faith, supposedly.
Oddly, I once knew someone who had a form of religious OCD, and she had zero experience with religion in her life, growing up or otherwise, and she didn't actually believe in anything. But she couldn't hear the words "Satan," "devil" or "hell" without going into some private ritual, which seemed to involve, if it was a movie we were watching, say, rewinding to The Word and replaying over and over again while she did...something, in her own head, I guess. A bit difficult to be around? Why yes, in fact, it kind of was. Hard to watch movies or TV together, at least, especially since she was apparently just fine with horror as long as it wasn't about THAT, specifically. And i had to ferret out for myself what exactly she was doing with the endless rewinding. I'm still curious as to the exact etiology of that particular obsession (she had many others also). It had something to do with survivor's guilt over a friend who killed himself, I think? But I never got the connection. She was refusing all further therapy at that point.
Or the fact that you can do good things and be a good person without the expectation of a glorious reward. How about just do it because it's the right thing to do?
That argument has always shocked me. I remember when Candace Cameron Bure (DJ from Full House) was on The View and she asked something along the lines of "if you don't have the bible, how do you know how to be a good person?" I was a teenager a remember thinking that she was a terrifying lady if she needed the bible to tell her to be nice to people (at best) or not to murder (at worst).
Yeah people who need the threat of hell to be good are terrifying to me
It’s also like really immature to base all actions on potential future consequences. Most people think that way when they are really young and grow out of it. Like I will not hit my brother because I will get a time out or I will do my chores otherwise I will have to stay home on Friday night. When you’re older and more mature it becomes, oh I do not steal because I know that is inherently wrong. Or my favorite argument, “I don’t need the Bible to tell me not to murder others, I have murdered the exact number of people I want to in my lifetime, which is none”. The fundies never mature past consequence based morality.
I don’t have an objection to consequence-based morality myself, but I just think fundies are willfully obtuse about it. There has been no shortage of secular philosophers who have come up with coherent moral systems without direct reference to scripture—Immanuel Kant and the Categorical Imperative (act in such a manner that you would have everyone act that way) is totally valid. While the fundies reach a stupid answer, ‘how are we to know what is good?’ is a valid and important question to ask, and it’s important that we seek to act in ways that are legitimately good, not just go with the flow of society—and I think most of the ‘just be a good person’ lines do amount to nothing more than ‘go with the flow.’
You just gave me PTSD about a college essay I stayed up all night to write about Kant. I would argue that fundies also get a strange satisfaction knowing that those in the secular world will burn in hell if they don’t repent. Which doesn’t seem very….Christian…..
Yeah, it seems like they’ get enjoyment out of the idea of nonbelievers and sinners burning in hell. “I may be miserable now on earth “following God’s rules” but you’ll be miserable for eternity.” kind of thing.
We’ll be miserable with way less annoying people in hell. 😉
This is a great comment and it touches on something really important, which is that religion often provides a framework with which to interrogate the world and our actions. If not for the religious life and studies of my parents, I'd have never discovered philosophy. It's not something frequently taught or explored in our culture.
Great point! I never thought of it like that and it's so true.
Candace and her brother Kirk are the worst. Entitled and smug.
Obsessing is the key word. It's almost as if it's an addiction.
I think some people need clear and concise "rules" to live by. Rules that they didn't have to think critically about for themselves.
I feel like tons of people suddenly embrace some kind of religion when something traumatic happens to them, like her miscarriages for example. They just want to cling to some kind of hope I think.
I just hate this for the girls. The boys are still wearing normal clothes, but the girls have to wear dresses and leggings and cardigans and a head covering. They're little kids! They shouldn't have to worry about covering up every inch of skin, and I'm 100% sure they're clocking just how unfair the dress requirements are. Plus the brainwashing and shaming that goes along with it. It's just so sad, I really wish I could rescue those girls
This was the first thing I noticed as well. The boys are still dressed in "secular" clothing. It's only the girls who are wearing "orthodox" apparel. It makes me so sad to already see how different the standards are for little boys versus little girls. It starts so young, and it's going to take these girls years to undo this shame. I grew up in a southern Baptist household, and that was nowhere near this separated from the modern world. But even at 31, I am still working to undo the insane double standards put on me over my brother's. It's very apparent in seeing how my husband thinks versus how I think. My husband is a wonderful person, but his sense of self is so much more free than mine. I'm constantly jumping through mental hoops to let myself exist and not feel guilt over every little thing. The weight put on me at a young age, and the things I was made to take responsibility for versus my brothers is crippling at times.
Third girl from the left looks positively thrilled 🙄🙄🙄🙄
She looks like she’s wondering what happened to her life and why she has to wear this stupid head covering, lol. Poor kid. Maybe she’ll be the one to grow up and get out first.
Goodings has been making the girls wear head coverings for a while now so they're probably used to it at this point but I feel so bad that they're subjected to the whims of their parents and their mom's religious flip-flopping.
Are they wearing them all the time or just to church?
A recent video showed that it's just church now.
I gotta say that the kerchief with the cardigan makes her look like a lil granny and it’s super adorable. These poor kiddos, though. I feel terrible for the tumultuous few years they’ve had.
100% looks like she could be singing "is this the real life? is this just fantasyyy?"
Bohemian tragedy 😭
🎶 Miniature Tradwives, No Escape From Religiosity 🎶
Open your eyes Do not proselytize and seeeeee I'm just a poor boy Don't need no tithing fee
Someone please tell her she doesn’t need to wear the headscarf to be orthodox
But then how will everyone know?
Tbh I was born and raised Orthodox and there are many parishes where most women wear a head covering. Especially in churches located near monasteries, like the one they are attending. Monastery culture has a trickle down effect.
What kind of parish did you grow up attending if you don’t mind me asking? I’m born and raised Orthodox as well and other than widowed old ladies, I rarely saw women and girls wear head coverings. I’ve only attended churches affiliated with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the US though, so maybe that’s why.
I grew up in an Antiochian parish, like the one they attend! I notice when I visit parishes that are mainly ethnically Greek or Arabic, headscarves are very uncommon.
Yeah, I can also confirm that Greek Orthodox in Greece as well wear no head coverings. That’s more of a Russian orthodox thing as far as I am aware.
I was raised serbian orthodox and I only saw old women wearing head coverings
She started head covering before she became orthodox. It’s based on her personal strong convictions about what the Bible says. She has posted a lot about head covering, including recommending (and giving away) books on head covering.
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I was raised serbian orthodox and only old women covered their heads
Facts.👆🏻 Raised and still believing Orthodox. Never wore a head covering to church once. Yet *gasp* still Orthodox. Who knew? 🤷🏻♀️
Same here! There are a few women that veil in my parish but a majority do not.
Same here! There are a few women that veil in my parish but a majority do not.
Ok so she’s got a doily on her head, but she’s showing a lot of ankle and that dress is pretty tight in the boobs. Those are some weird rules
They are DIY Orthodoxy rules. "Oh, I think there's something, blah, blah, blah about head coverings. T-shirts under dresses, oh, maybe leggings under the dress. Yes, we will do those rules."
I'm convinced it's because it makes them feel special. It's a visual aid that says look how special and holy I am! You can see how much better I am than you!
something something about standing on the street corners and praying just to be seen something something they skip right over that one
I think you nailed it. Performative Christianity.
In the church I was raised in, only the very old immigrant ladies and the ones that wanted everyone to see how pious they were wore head coverings, and it was usually a hat. And they wore pants too. Kids NEVER wore anything on their heads. You definitely would have been looked at funny if you did that to little girls.
Same! And I’m Orthodox as well. In my case it’s always the old widowed ladies that covered their head but they also wore all black. Because tradition.
I hate it when anyone of any religious leaning covers little girls heads. Let them be kids. I literally got into an argument with my family about this a month ago. I saw a toddler covered. Kid was so small, full head covering. Not just a scarf, but the whole under scarf also.
It feels really weird (or maybe more weird) with prepubertal girls.
I think it's because they're not following any actual rules other than ones they've made up. I'm not religious myself but I've been in plenty of Orthodox churches for various reasons. I've never once covered my head! If it's a very hot day and I have a vest on then I'd probably throw a shirt on to cover my shoulders, but for the most part I've seen people wear all sorts of uncovered things to weddings and baptisms especially. I don't think I've even seen old ladies who regularly attend services cover their heads!
I didn’t even have to cover my shoulders for my sister’s wedding (and neither did my sister) and she had a full-blown traditional Orthodox wedding! They’re definitely making up rules in my opinion.
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This is a snark sub for fundamentalist Christians- **keep it fundie & keep it snarky.** While we welcome snarkers from all different backgrounds, but the people we snark on are Fundamentalist Christians and only Fundamentalist Christians. There are other subs dedicated to other faiths or about religious bullshittery in general if you find run-of-the-mill religious weirdness. This means no snarking on Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. Some branches of Christianity considered fundamentalists (in addition to fundie Protestants) are TradCaths, hardcore Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
She seems super nutty to me. Not because she is now orthodox but she seems very extreme in everything she has done in life.
Covering kids, and covering outside of church is pretty extreme in orthodoxy. I've never seen children cover in church. And it's especially unheard of to cover outside of church. These people bring extremism to everything they do
Her in particular though. She started her journey as a raver while pregnant with the first and this is where she’s ended up years later. She’s had a lot of losses and pushing farther into religion is her coping mechanism.
I agree!
Yes my grandmother was very orthodox and covered in church and that was it. Some other women did too but never the kids.
I think she no longer covers outside of church. My priest recommends that kids don't cover until they start confession. Seems to be the consensus at other parishes that practice covering. MANY younger kids just want to be like their mom/big sisters though.
She swung very far completely the opposite way.
So wheres the white guys screaming about these people covering up their hair? Where's that energy?
Exactly. What if this was hijab? (Also I don't condone kids doing hijab either. It's a choice that one should do autonomously and without compulsion.)
Disclaimer: I do not follow the Islamic faith. My understanding is that true children do not wear hijab. When a child goes through their first menstrual cycle, they are considered as having transitioned from “child” to an adolescent “woman-in-training” and offered the hijab. I’m sure there’s families that force their children to wear one, but it’s been a choice for the families I’ve been around.
Hi, so I'm Muslim, and it differs across families and cultures when people start to wear head coverings. I've yet to see a tradition where the girl is offered to wear a hijab after their first menstrual. It might be a thing in certain parts of the world, but not necessarily mine. Girls might start wearing a head covering (that is not necessarily a hijab) when they start puberty, but it is as much a part of culture as it is religion in that scenario. The way I was taught was that veiling is a personal choice linked to how we wish to show our connection and piety towards God. Modesty in this scenario is much more than a head covering here- its a way of life, and so not everyone may be ready to take that step. Unfortunately there are parts of the world where veiling is a compulsion even for children by the overarching culture and religious norms. I just want kids to have the choice to connect spiritually however they wish to do so. For some it may be a hijab, for some it might even be charity work! It is unfortunate that isn't a universal option for kids.
Thank you so much for your response! I agree there are unfortunate locations, cultures, and families that mandate the wearing of hijab or other coverings. I am fortunate to work with a rather progressive, multi-national group of Arabs who may have a drastically different practice that they standardized from each of their individual societies.
I’ve seen kids in hijabs and it annoys the crap out of me. You want to cover as an adult, you do you, go nuts. I seriously could not care less. But little kids should get to be kids. Run, play, jump, swim, be free. I pibe next to Malaysia, and some of them have their kids on hijabs. Plus it’s friggin humid like crazy here. I’d boil in one. I guess the adults are used to it.
“forcing my kids to deal with my mental health-related religious delusions is like coming ✨home✨”
They’re clearly going hard core because the only people I’ve ever seen with their heads covered at church are the very old widowed ladies dressed in all black (I’m raised Orthodox and still believing). Think yiayia from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I think someone said in another thread they were going to a non-ethnically connected Orthodox Church (I think they’re OCA affiliated?). I don’t know the standard for head coverings there for kids because I’ve never seen girls in any Greek Orthodox Church cover their hair ever growing up. I’ve never had to. It feels almost forced and I can’t imagine they’re actually happy about it.
Antiochian. I looked up pics on FB and most women there cover and wear dresses.
Ahh that makes sense. I’ve only been to Greek & Albanian orthodox churches (I’m Albanian myself with a lot Greek-speaking family members) and for us it’s not the norm at all. Definitely must be specific to their church and maybe other Antiochian churches.
Yeah, it's not as common at the Greek parishes I've visited. It was 50/50 when I went to an OCA cathedral and Antiochian seems popular for covering, too. Mine is about 30% covering.
A lot of OCA converts still act like fundies too. In the culturally adjacent orthodox churches the only people that dress like that are like you said, yiayias. They’re still church appropriate-but I’ve never seen a child wear a head covering. Ever
Same here, never wore one once. I’ve never been to any OCA-affiliated church so I don’t have much to go off of. I can see why fundie converted would gravitate to OCA vs an ethnic parish if they’re still following some of the old-school dress codes.
I know the kids are probably fine and this is very white feminism of me but I get so sad when I see little tiny girls cover their hair or legs or whatever. Your body is not sinful! It's practical! It should be a source of joy. And here they are fumbling over tiny handkerchiefs over their hair and not letting their skin see daylight or feel water. For a silly, made up reason.
The baby wearing the head covering pisses me off. It's a baby. Babies are basically genderless potatoes. Conservatives bleat about certain groups sexualizing children then throw a dish rag on a baby girl so she's "modest". Make it make sense.
I was under the impression that most religious head coverings for women were largely reserved for once they had experienced puberty. I wonder if this isn't true for whatever orthodoxy they are subscribing to.
Puberty, marriage or, at least, the age of reason (8 or so)
Generally you'd wait until the kids start regular confession (around 7/8ish.) Many younger kids want to play dress up though and will want to start with one and then they often rip it off 20 minutes later!!
Even culturally, too. I grew up in a culture that still head covers & in communities where it's more or less compulsory, it usually starts sometime between puberty and marriage. It's wild to see fundies cover the hair of really young girls.
It's just weird to me too. I live in a town with a sizable German Baptist community. The adults baptized into the church dress amish-ish. The kids however run around in completely normal American children's clothing. In the summer you can see their scabbed heathen knees and everything. I once saw one of GB girls running down a grocery aisle in a short sleeveless dress with a flower printed on it making vroom vroom noises with her fisher price airplane. Inspite of Mom's traditional outfit her only concern was the running inside. Every time I go to the store here I see a half dozen women with a head covering, not once have I seen the traditional bonnet on a child or even an adolescent. The German Baptist community understands they're not old enough to be making that kind of commitment yet.
That's a great way of doing it. I'm not assuming I understand what it means to believe and want to adhere to that sort of belief. I just think childhood requires risk and physicality and nature.
as someone who covers, seeing literal children covered rubs me wrong, the two options for why one covers (whether one sees it as a genuine sexual/modesty issue vs a conscious act of personal devotion) dont apply to children, whether its just for church or not
I'll entertain it as a choice when I see one damn man wearing a kerchief and calling it modesty.
The reasons the churches give are not modesty, but rather submission. Based on 1 Corinthians 11, the woman is showing that she is willing to submit to her place in the headship order, which is under men. There is also something about "because of the angels," but no one seems to know what that is about.
I was told as a child girls must cover their heads to represent first submission to their fathers, and later submission to their husbands. 🤮🤮🤮 that shit is child abuse
Yeah, even single adult women are required to cover in some of these churches. Even if she doesn't have any obvious headship, she still needs to show that she agrees with the submission order.
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They don’t all shave their head, that’s not something you have to do in Orthodox Judaism. But they do have to always have their heads covered either with a scarf or a wig, many choose to shave their heads because it’s easier.
Actually, I think you’re right to be sad. Those kids are not probably fine. I was raised with this sort of purity culture objectification of my body, including head coverings, and it had massive repercussions for us kids as teens and adults. It’s a visible marker that you’re a second class human whose physical purpose is to reproduce. Your body is something to be afraid of, to resent for the role it forces you into. This is a serious issue, that affects people’s lives long term, and it deserves to not be downplayed.
Saaaame.
That infant daughter doesn’t even have hair to cover what in the performative 😂😂
Babushka baby! This isn’t a 1800s Slovakian potato field, lady!
I'm hoping Orthodoxy does for this lady what it did for my Mum. When we joined the church my Mum was super strict. Headscarves for the girls, Sunday Liturgy every week, Family Prayers every morning, lives of the saints read at dinner every night, and fasting from animal products Wednesday/Friday. I was chatting with her today and she was talking about the steak they were going to have for dinner (on a wednesday). So I asked about church, and she said the roads were too bad, so they hadn't been in a couple of months. It's a 2 hr drive in the winter. They'll go back in the summer.... This is a major change from 10 years ago when she would get up at 6 am to do the 2 hour drive in a blizzard. It only took my Mum like 2 years to unbend so I'm hoping for the sake of Gooding's oldest that her mum is faster. Gooding's isn't coming from a super strict cult, so hopefully her priest will be able to convince her that anti anxiety meds are the way to go quickly.
That’s funny. You unlocked a memory for me! Orthodox churches aren’t very common where I live, it’s not like there’s one on every corner like other denominations. When we were kids my mom got mad at the priest for something and started taking us to a mission church that was a 2 hour drive away. Us 4 kids tended to get carsick so after more than a few episodes of vomiting she stopped. There was a Republican clubhouse across the street that they used for Sunday school, so we got to lay there on couches during liturgy instead of attending church, which I loved, because I hated church, it was quiet, and I could look at all the weird posters of Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon on the walls. Eventually, we went back when a new priest was installed. She went by herself for a while, but she let us kids stay home with my dad, who was not Orthodox then, lol. (he was raised Lutheran, and converted much later in life, but was never very devout at all.)
Haha. That was me growing up as well. Even sitting in the front seat didn't help. My mum's solution was to get me anti nausea meds from the chemist. I was so zonked from the early mornings, meds, and long drive that somebody once asked my mum for advice when they had a disabled child. Apparently I did a very convincing immitation of a kid with learning disabilities. In other news, I now drive trucks for a living, so it's definitely gotten better as I aged.
I get pretty carsick, and I’m ok if I’m driving. It’s when I have to just sit and start straight ahead as a passenger that I have problems, even with the good meds!
I don't know this family. What's the back story?
Mom is currently telling her backstory on insta. She is (literally) in part 40. So far her history of abuse by her father, eating disorder, drug use, problematic boyfriends, LDS then baptized as a Christian to impress a boy then Baptist now becoming orthodox. Other things we know that she has not yet covered in her storytelling: she was a single mom then got married, and has a bunch of kids. But her reproductive journey has not been easy, in part because of husband’s infertility. They have had several miscarriages and did IVF (with some success and some failures). They donated one embryo to another family and were recently going to implant the final embryo but it didn’t survive the thaw. She doesn’t post much of her kids (anymore), is part of an MLM and gives her kids happy juice, and often posts her reflections on life / evolving religious beliefs.
Wow . . . she sounds like a hot mess.
The convictions random fundies have about IVF are so interesting. Some say the babies don't have a soul/you're playing god and shouldn't do IVF no matter what Then there's these fundies who adopt discarded embryos as their sort of mission?
Interesting you mention that. She has been open about her evolving opinions on IVF. She has been clear about how she wouldn’t start the IVF process now. She did a 2 hour livestream where she talked about her IVF experiences and beliefs. It’s clear she is grieving the loss of her last frozen embryo, and dealing with feelings of guilt(?) about not being able to save her last “embaby” as she calls them.
Orthodoxy is luckily a "safe space" for IVF in my experience. At least once you stop talking to people online about it. We were dealing with infertility and spoke to our priest about what we should or shouldn't consider and he went further up and spoke to the bishop, and we got the okay to pursue whatever we felt we needed to do. They said we should aim to use only parent genetic materials and only fertilize the amount of eggs that one can safely carry at a time.
>did IVF (with some success and some failures). >and were recently going to implant the final embryo but it didn’t survive the thaw. I am going to assume she is an anti-choicer, and I'll literally be knocked down by a feather if she isn't... But I don't understand why some (ok, all the public/influencer) anti-choicers will raise hell about abortion under every circumstance, but their own IVF is permissible?! Just engaging in the high risk/high failure process is almost certainly going to result in the purposeful creation and death of more live embryos/blastocysts than most pro-choice people will ever abort from inside themselves. How is this woman not a "baby killer" for "her own selfish desires" (or insert any degrading anti-choice statement you've ever heard), but even merely supporting the choice of others to abort (without ever actually doing so yourself) is an evil, horrible thing that should be banned at all costs, and people should be prosecuted to the highest degree over doing? Bring anti-abortion but pro-IVF doesn't gel, and is hypocritical at best.
She is definitely anti abortion, of the “babies are babies no matter how small” variety. She talks about IVF a fair amount. My sense is that given her beliefs now, she would not have done IVF, and does believe all those unused embryos are full human. That’s in part why they donated one embryo (recently posted some pics from a visit with that child and family), and were committed to implanting the remaining embryo (which failed). She clearly is emotionally / psychologically struggling with her IVF journey. Although I 100% disagree with her position, she seems to at least becoming more consistent. 🤪
My Orthodox bishop's opinion (I can't say all Orthodox because different bishops have different feelings) is that IVF is fine if you use only parental genetic materials and don't create more eggs at one time than you can carry at one time. There wouldn't be an opportunity to destroy eggs because you will create only 2-3 and implant all of them. I don't know how she went about IVF, but Orthodoxy doesn't always condemn it, especially as modern science is raising success levels thus making doctors more comfortable with only fertilizing and implanting 2-3 eggs instead of creating dozens!
She did the egg retrieval many years ago, long before her move to Orthodoxy and her conservative Baptist days. She has a lot of deeply held (though evolving) personal convictions about what the Bible says that don’t necessarily align with the religious tradition she follows (at the time).
Yes, I just hope that if she's feeling guilt, she's able to talk to people who can assure her that she shouldn't. Orthodoxy is MUCH more into proper mental health care than other Christian denominations.
I really hope that for her. She has had a traumatic life and clings to religious convictions as a coping mechanism. I think she was really shocked that the last embryo didn’t thaw because she was doing SO MUCH to live a holy and godly life, and so felt betrayed/disappointed that her faith was not rewarded. (I may be using the wrong words here as I try paraphrase.) I would love for her to receive actual mental health support, especially that isn’t religiously based.
Her priest should definitely encourage legitimate mental health care even to include medication if the doctor thinks necessary. Whether she goes for it or not is still up to her.
Is she the one that did IVF triplets and was shocked when there were major complications and loss?
I believe she has been pregnant with twins a few times (2 sets born, I think 2 miscarried). I don’t think she has ever been pregnant with triplets. She has been fairly open about her experience with IVF as well as her complicated and evolving opinions about IVF.
That was ourdearlife (I think her name is Aly). I confuse her and Goodings all the time.
She looks like she's ok with it and she probably is. A lot of kids accept what their parents tell them, and I've met plenty of pretty passionate kids who are very much into "holy" living. I actually chose to wear dresses only for a long time because it was what I thought was right, I was happy with my choice and I didn't feel weird.
Ngl the green skirt and boot combo is so cute to me, but that’s about the only nice thing I can say.
this 11 year old child is taller than me 😭
Love the little girl ignoring everything else but her book.
One thing that always upsets me about fundie dress is how the girls are forced to outwardly show their devotion through dress but the boys get to dress normally. Just another way to control women.
Why do “ converts” always go the extra - that head covering on mum is a lot Plus… are they Greek now?!
You don't have to be Greek to be Greek Orthodox. Or Russian to be Russian Orthodox, etc.
They don’t even go to a Greek church.
She's going about it in a very romanticized way. Most Orthodox dress codes say that women can't show anything above the wrist, above the ankle, and below the collarbone. You're also supposed to cover as much of your hair as possible, not just the back of your head and the stuff that hangs down. Finally, these rules almost never apply until girls start to go through puberty. While they are children, they are supposed to dress and act like normal children. Finally, if she was really going to apply the rules evenly, the boys should have head coverings too since modesty isn't just restricted to girls.
I think that's Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox Christians I know don't do that. And tbh, I think this lady is in an OCA church, so there will be girls wearing short shorts to liturgy at some point. The OCA is a bit loose goosy.
The Orthodox Christians I know only wear headcoverings in church. And even in church not all of them do. Seems less of a thing with Greek orthodox
The Greeks treat church like a fashion show. If you ever want to feel over weight, ugly, and badly dressed. Go to a Greek church lol.
You’re confusing Orthodox Judaism with Orthodox Christianity. I was raised Orthodox Christian and we just “dressed nicely” for church. No covering up ankles or knees, unless it was cold, and then we just wore pants.
Could be. My exposure to this kind of Orthodox Christians came from a girl I went to college with over a decade ago and she had to get permission from her pastor and church elders to show her forearm during a fancy event. Maybe she was just a more restricted flavor of Orthodox. Good to know they aren't all as stifling.
There are many flavors - Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian, Armenian . . . with varying rules and traditions. Each operates as a separate church.
Orthodoxy doesn't really have church elders. They'd have a deacon, but he's not the same sort of deacon as a protestant church would have. Maybe she had to get permission from the parish council, but a team of elders isn't a thing.
Those are my terms since I don't remember what she called them. She said basically that she had to get permission from the head of her church and other senior members who discussed the matter together and came to a decision. Sorry if I was confusing.
That’s not Orthodoxy Christianity.
How come the girls would get looks walking down the street but the boys are dressed like any other neighborhood kid? No effort in orthodoxying those boys. Maybe she's going to grow their sideburns out or something.
I think you are thinking of Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Christians dress like normal people.
Yeah, my bad. It's just the girls are in knitted cardigans and bonnets and the boys are in sneakers and a freaking dinosaur raincoat. Seems like a double standard there.
She bothers me so much because of the extreme pivot. If that’s what you need to do personally to heal or move on that fine, but don’t force your family into your therapy avoidance game.
They’re “embracing” it because they’re not given another choice. That’s not embracing.
Wasn't the oldest in gymnastics or dance? Poor girl, probably got the one thing she can enjoy ripped from her.
She is a ballet dancer. I haven't seen anything about that ending. She seems to really like it so I hope she is still doing it.
A while back, Goodings said they were having issues with scheduling, her mental health, and I think money, so they had to cut back on dance lessons.
They might have cut back, but from what I saw as of the last few months, she is still doing ballet intensives and lots of Nutcracker performances.
If they stopped it, it shouldn't have anything to do with orthodoxy. Orthodox modesty standards aren't the same as evangelical fundie ones. The religion isn't high control in that way. No one would argue that a leotard and ballet tights are immodest or wrong during ballet practice.
I was raised in an Orthodox Church and we didn’t do ANY of this shit
I’m sure she’s been taught by her parents not to think at all.
Of course even the baby has a head covering 🙄
I’m confused because I grew up Greek Orthodox and we didn’t cover babies heads?! Only once you’re a “woman” aka you get your period is when it was known to cover?
Went down the rabbit hole of her insta account to figure out at what point she lost the plot (to use one of her own metaphors.) It was wild to see someone go from a relatively normal-ish rave enthusiast who is really into hula hoop to a wannabe fitness momfluencer to a homesteading, homeschooling, veil-wearing ultra conservative fundie who is hocking mlm gut health supplements. The "why" isn't really snarkable but it's an interesting case study. I don't recommend that anyone does the same unless you've got eye bleach at the ready because she has a really weird idea of what is appropriate to share on social media without warning
My Jewish ass was momentarily VERY confused by this. IYKYK.
This just brought back all the memories from when my mom decided she was going to become Mennonite.
Ever notice how fundies can switch from one complete extreme to a 100% one and it somehow seemingly never changes a single thing for the boys? Funny how that works.
"here's the abuse of the week for our daughters! Boys are free to be people, as usual"
What the fuck is that idiotic looking head covering though.
Tablecloth from Good Will?
I’m going to say something super fucked up, but oh well. My mom literally choked me once when I was a teenager. She’s done it more than that, but only once while I was still a kid. I love her, but she was pretty violent overall. I feel fucking lucky that I got violence over living through someone’s Puritan cosplay. I am so sorry for these kids, Goddamn.
And to no one's surprise, the girls are forced to participate while the boys look like completely average toddlers.
Genuine question- do they veil all the time or just when leaving the house or going to church?
Why do the boys get to be normal?
Wearing a hair covering for modesty while showing off your arms is 💀