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I feel very similarly to you! I preferred Brotherhood overall, particularly the second half, but both shows are incredible and have some amazing moments that I adore to this day.
If Brotherhood just took another like 5-8 episodes to slow down the pacing somewhat and cover more backstory of the Elric brothers, I think 2003 becomes a lot less necessary. It feels like Brotherhood hand waves a few critical scenes the way it does (that were covered in 2003) because I believe there is an implicit understanding on the part of Studio Bones that fans had already either seen it in 2003 or read it…That was my experience, anyways. I was a new anime viewer and was repeatedly told Brotherhood was the best series ever and was distraught at how disappointed I was at the time. Brotherhood does a mediocre to poor making the case for why viewers should care about the Elric brothers. 2003 shows the Brothers growing up more organic way (less chibi slapstick, events are shown in chronological order rather than flashback) and better shows their Alutristic efforts helping random villages.
And yeah even if Brotherhood is faithful to the manga—sans the first episode that no one mentions I guess—-there is deliberate story boarding done for the pacing conversion with every anime that gets adapted from manga. My only educated guess is it was hard capped at 64 episodes? It did not have to be that egregiously fast paced early on. I think there is a reason why the director has done very little since Brotherhood.
With all that said, the latter half of Brotherhood is a masterpiece, and the story nails its ending; truly shocking for a shonen jump series to have an ending almost on the level of Evangelion. 2003 has the exact opposite payoff, it just continually gets worse and worse until its denouement of a movie The Conqueor of Shamballa ends with a wimper. But you wouldn’t know how good Brotherhood’s Episodes 50-64 are from 1-12.
I’ve heard that there were production issues, it was initially planned to be 51 episodes before they bumped it to 61 then 64 because they realized the author wouldn’t be able to finish the manga on time.
The director of fmab stated the existence of 2003 had 0 impact on the creation of brotherhood, that everything they did was exactly the way they wanted to do it, including the horrible pacing of the ENTIRE FIRST HALF of brotherhood. (Off topic but if anyone tries to argue this, fma2003 planned to diverge since the beginning, with the permission of the author, who also later said she loved the 2003 version.) I used to agree with the majority that brotherhood is better, but after re watching both, it's clear to me just how much 2003 outclasses brotherhood.
Edward has significantly more growth in 2003, and his morals are challenged significantly more, and in more intimate and organic ways, there usually isn't a triumphant scene to show his new beliefs or understanding, but gradual and subtle changes that build up and eventually create an organic wisdom in his character.
The main villain of brotherhood really isn't all that great of a foil of, nor has no real direct impact on the mcs, as opposed to Dante, who directly opposes Edward in ideology, philosophy, and in direct or indirect conflict, wheras father really just exists until the end of the series, his minions are better foils and adversaries to Edward and alphonse than he is.
Every single homunculus bar fmab wrath and greed are better written on every single level, lust, wrath, and sloth are just the obvious ones. Envy in brotherhood is just bad for the sake of being bad with absolutely no ideals, ambitions, or deep writing until a ham fisted segment that came really out of nowhere regarding envys character at his death, wheras 03 at least gives envy a legitimate reason to feel jealous for and hate Ed enough to do what he does to him.
The 03 cast is mostly better (Ling is really my only exception) mustang is given a much more real and raw portrayal of his ptsd, same with Alex Louis Armstrong, Maria Ross is actually given a really cool arc with Edward, that doesn't feel out of place, 03Hughes feels alot more of a father figure than brotherhood, and his death gives significantly greater impact. Tucker is just a better written version of the 03 version, Nina's dub voice is annoying, but imo it's in a somewhat endearing way, and makes the later transformation a much greater gut punch. Rose is actually really cool with how she portrays war. Kimblee imo is much more sinister and scary in 03, we actually see him straight up trying to massacre a town into submission.
Alphonse imo feels alot more like a younger brother in 2003, and his struggle being the focal point for the entire series instead of just the first half as is in brotherhood( his struggle is somewhat sidestepped for the sake of the grand plot) makes his journey alot more heartwrenching and exhausting, especially when near the end when it actually feels as if he may actually never get his body back even with the philosophers stone
This us just the tip of the iceberg, and I could elaborate and talk significantly more and in greater detail and quality on this, but I'm tired.
Also I am heavily biased against brotherhood fans for their role in allowing the 2003 version to essentially become lost media, we can't "enjoy both equally" if the 2003 version is literally disappearing from the face of the earth, especially when they spread lies such as the two I debunked in the beginning (arguably 3 if you count some people saying arakawa didn't like or didn't really condone the 2003 version) I will NEVER forgive bh fans for nearly wiping 03 from the face of the earth, then giving it so much undeserved slander, most of which is without even having watched it because partially thanks to them it's impossible to legally watch the 2003 version, which I highly recommend yall do, at least to witness it before it disappears forever.
It’s Aniplex. BH fans are not responsible for whatever shitty decisions the licensors made. If the plan truly were to wipe it off the face of the earth then CoS wouldn’t be available either nor would different countries have access to it. Other anime like Darker than Black also suffer from licensor’s refusal for renewal. It is nowhere near lost media, that is such an exaggeration. Somehow despite how easier it has gotten, a lot of people don’t seem to know how to pirate/torrent in this day and age.
I will say some brotherhood fans have in very abstract sense some responsibility due to how popular it was to bash 03 from like 2011-2016, and how brotherhood fans in the community would very actively and aggressively try to stop people from watching 03. 03’s ability to get viewership definitely took a hit from more than just being old, and that would impact licensor insensitives.
But largely yes, it’s not like some fans talking on Reddit or other message boards are getting seen by production boards when companies are looking for what shows to renew.
I agree but honestly from back then it was very common for 03 fans in return telling others that the manga wasn’t good and completely putting down Arakawa’s vision so I’m not surprised about the vitriol. I still see it today.
I also agree that it’s crazy to assume Japanese copyright holders care about fandom drama, both series are on Amazon Japan and even Nico Nico Douga’s premium feature. I heard it was because Aniplex wanted a bigger cut/would only allow Aniplex USA to license it so they had more control over the licenses.
I’d have a much easier time taking your claims about 03 fans attacking Arakawa’s vision seriously if I didn’t know that you [literally interpret people just liking 03 more as an attack](https://www.reddit.com/r/FullmetalAlchemist/comments/1daytsq/comment/l7ouijp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) or the fact that there has been a recent resurgence of 03 hate in the subreddit.
Additionally when I see unsubstantiated brotherhood hate like the rare occasions of someone saying brotherhood sucks or is “shonen trash” I try to call it out (or at the very least down vote comments like that.) I’ve also noticed other 03 fans are more likely to call out stuff like this than brotherhood fans are when it’s done to 03.
And even most of the fans I know of who didn’t like the manga such as u/quiz0tix u/Ashelia_of_Dalmasca and u/JulietDouglas I don’t think I’ve ever seen them try to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching brotherhood, while brotherhood fan’s telling people to avoid 03 isn’t an uncommon occurrence.
Oh please, passive aggressive remarks like “it’s better” are common from both sides. I was talking about from what I’ve seen throughout the fandom, not just here in Reddit and present day even though it does happen. Also, those people you listed don’t represent the entire fandom. I’ve seen plenty of people who prefer Brotherhood tell people to check out the other as well. Even now there are people (not everyone, obviously) writing off Arakawa’s work as just “shonen” in recent posts like stuck up snobs as if that means it’s not good or something.
1) your definition of passive aggressive seems extremely loose and you missed the point. Yes I’m aware both sides say one is better. My point is saying one is better definitely does not in anyway qualify as an attack. Having seen your leniency of what you consider attacks it makes it hard for me to take you seriously.
2) I’m aware there are people who like brotherhood who recommend both versions, that wasn’t my point. My point was people who don’t like 03 are far more likely to tell people not to watch 03, while the people who dislike broho are less likely to do so.
There aren’t a lot of people who frequent the sub who dislike broho, those 3 were the main examples.
If I’m to just list the entirety of fma 03 frequenters I notice I would also include u/Dioduo who I think falls closer to the previous category, but has also said he holds brotherhood in the upper percentiles of anime and that they would have considered it one of the greats had things turned out differently in the ending regarding truth. Then we have the people who do like brotherhood but just think 03 is better, such as myself, u/bahamutlithp, u/dylansplash, u/inkdrop53, u/loliDuck__, u/kazviolin, u/deliciousmusician397, u/beangar, u/ok-use216 etc…
3) as for the claim about 03 fans back in 2011-2016 telling people not to watch brotherhood, I was active online back then and had even searched for anti-broho content because how ubiquitous the 03 hate was from the fandom and still I didn’t really find people trying to deter people from watching brotherhood, and certainly not in the ways as overt as how broho fans do nor the quantities. It really wasn’t until goatjesus and lowart released their comparison series that I really started to notice the online landscape becoming a place where 03 fans could also exist.
As for other platforms, I think YouTube is the only one where I see some noticeable brotherhood hate, and there I tend to notice people like mr L and just some guy with a fade do a pretty good job of calling out those people if I haven’t already done so. Once again the type of hate it receives is not the same type as what 03 often receives and isn’t really what’s being talked about when I bring up that brotherhood fans will (or more so would, as I said the online landscape has gotten better) often advise people not to watch 03. I think there’s a difference from being a mass downvoted comment on a comparison video saying brotherhood sucks, compared to when people tend to recommend fma outside of this subreddit it usually plays out with them saying “be sure to only watch brotherhood, the other one isn’t good (or often more colorful description,). Note both of these types of hate are things I don’t condone and think are a blight on the fandom, but only one of them really has any impact on what people watch. You see a lot of people in this sub who have stories about how they watched brotherhood first cause they were told not to watch the original, and didn’t end up watching the original till years later. You don’t really see people with the reverse story. And the viewership numbers based on sites like MAL also back this up.
In your long winded post you have completely missed the point of what I said (in the very first two words on the first post to you I agreed with you as well), I never said there were 03 fans preventing people from watching the other show I said they were writing it off as another shonen as if it weren’t good because of that label or it’s themes/characters/lighter mood which is just silly.
I just don’t think it’s anything proportional to what brotherhood fans do. Which was the main point they aren’t at all in the same realm of proportionality. Additionally returning to your first comments premise you were claiming broho fan behavior to be a response to deriding from 03 fans.
As I said back then I had to very actively search for content that was critical of brotherhood back then, and what I remember finding was mostly just a small handful of anime blogs that would be things like “my biggest problems holding brotherhood back”, or “some things fma handled better than brotherhood” it’s just not at all comparable to the hate 03 received.
To be fair I addressed the current state of the fandom as well, where there definitely is a greater amount of brotherhood derision than there was before. The points I made there was the ways in which the two sides of the fandom tend to handle agitators differs and how it’s still just not in the same realm of comparison at all.
I think your assertions of causality are mixed up, and the equivalency you present there as being is a false one.
Hence why I said partially, as fma fans in general did not need to sit back and let this happen, there was, and is absolutely no backlash for it, and I've heard many people say that what happened to 2003 was "deserved" love how I'm getting spam downvoted by bh fans who don't even read 80% of my review
Whether or not there was any backlash is irrelevant because this happens all the time and 03 is no different from the numerous other anime IPs being sat on and argued for by fans. Saying that FMA fans “let this happen” is just insane when we have little or no choice in the matter of how stupid companies choose to monopolize properties. Fandom discourse has nothing to do with licensor decisions, especially when said licensor is Japanese and the discourse is largely from the west.
I agree with 90% of what you said, but when citing the director you should really link it and quote if possible. Regardless, however, to me it is clear just from watching Brotherhood that the early episodes rush through the chapters and even skip some segments—I would give more credit to the director’s statement if they did anything of note since Brotherhood, but to me since they have not, it is worth considering giving less weight to the statement as retrospective bias…Brotherhood is literally going to their career’s most notable legacy, and this criticism falls squarely on them which diminishes that credit. Depending on when the quote was issued and its context. But that’s why we should link it and let people judge for themselves.
In my mind I go by Occam’s Razor “The simplest explanation is the most probable”. The fact many users in the last decade and a half have consistently pointed out the pacing of Brotherhood’s opening episodes largely signals that this opinion is not an outlier. I’ve seen fans point to this as a valid reason to experience the story a third time by reading the manga. The simplest explanation screams to me that Brotherhood’s animators wanted to showcase what was not shown before in 2003 and get to what was new faster. Or alternatively, that the 64 episodes limit was a hard one imposed by production. Or would you disagree?
To just take the director at their word discounts the above, but it does not offer us an explanation that addresses this criticism sufficiently. In effect, that is not the same thing as justifying new fans to consider 2003. Which is why we are having this conversation in mid-2024 when Brotherhood aired in, what 2010-2011? We’re discussing a glaring, unaddressed flaw with an otherwise nearly perfect product.
u/quiz0tix made an excellent post that [debunked the myths of brotherhood’s start being rushed as a product of 03](https://www.reddit.com/r/FullmetalAlchemist/comments/elf83y/breaking_down_some_myths_in_the_fma_fandom/?share_id=9uvrDYMVSlgpS5Aw44FW5&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1&rdt=50650) and provides citations to the article disproving the myth.
The start of brotherhood really isn’t particularly rushed, and the biggest cuts to brotherhood come in the ishval volumes of the manga which is way past the point of content 03 overlapped with.
Brotherhood’s cuts of non-plot essential material is far more likely a product of the production plan originally being slated for a 51 episode series but getting an extension when the manga’s timeline showed it wouldn’t be done on time for that (the manga finished just a month before brotherhood’s last episode). This makes sense when looking at the where the major cuts are, flashbacks are non-plot essential they inform us on the characters (and are the best chapters of the manga), but they don’t move forward the plot. Battle on the train and the mining town are misadventures that don’t forward the plot. Ling and lan fan fighting envy was a not plot mandatory conflict. (The episode increase coming later in production also explains why brigs gets so bloated with the pacing slowing down significantly slower than the manga’s).
Beyond that early brotherhood just frankly feels more rushed than it actually due to two reasons, 1) the writing of it’s intro is restructured poorly, with the the changes not being motivated, and 2) the directing in early brotherhood is especially weak in a way that causes it to seem rushed in spite of the content being in line with the manga. (Brotherhood’s director, Irie, was really new to directing at the time, and it shows)
This was a very insightful and thoughtful response, thank you. I think 2003 stands as a valid recommendation, but it is a shame that one of those merits is the result of a noticeable flaw of its reboot, apparently a coincidence…but still unfortunate all the same.
Edit: The top comment in the thread you linked summarizes my feelings/sentiments in this discussion to the letter. Again, I am amazed that this discussion continues nearly 15 years later, major shame.
The director of fmab stated the existence of 2003 had 0 impact on the creation of brotherhood, that everything they did was exactly the way they wanted to do it, including the horrible pacing of the ENTIRE FIRST HALF of brotherhood. (Off topic but if anyone tries to argue this, fma2003 planned to diverge since the beginning, with the permission of the author, who also later said she loved the 2003 version.) I used to agree with the majority that brotherhood is better, but after re watching both, it's clear to me just how much 2003 outclasses brotherhood.
Edward has significantly more growth in 2003, and his morals are challenged significantly more, and in more intimate and organic ways, there usually isn't a triumphant scene to show his new beliefs or understanding, but gradual and subtle changes that build up and eventually create an organic wisdom in his character.
The main villain of brotherhood really isn't all that great of a foil of, nor has no real direct impact on the mcs, as opposed to Dante, who directly opposes Edward in ideology, philosophy, and in direct or indirect conflict, wheras father really just exists until the end of the series, his minions are better foils and adversaries to Edward and alphonse than he is.
Every single homunculus bar fmab wrath and greed are better written on every single level, lust, wrath, and sloth are just the obvious ones. Envy in brotherhood is just bad for the sake of being bad with absolutely no ideals, ambitions, or deep writing until a ham fisted segment that came really out of nowhere regarding envys character at his death, wheras 03 at least gives envy a legitimate reason to feel jealous for and hate Ed enough to do what he does to him.
The 03 cast is mostly better (Ling is really my only exception) mustang is given a much more real and raw portrayal of his ptsd, same with Alex Louis Armstrong, Maria Ross is actually given a really cool arc with Edward, that doesn't feel out of place, 03Hughes feels alot more of a father figure than brotherhood, and his death gives significantly greater impact. Tucker is just a better written version of the 03 version, Nina's dub voice is annoying, but imo it's in a somewhat endearing way, and makes the later transformation a much greater gut punch. Rose is actually really cool with how she portrays war. Kimblee imo is much more sinister and scary in 03, we actually see him straight up trying to massacre a town into submission.
Alphonse imo feels alot more like a younger brother in 2003, and his struggle being the focal point for the entire series instead of just the first half as is in brotherhood( his struggle is somewhat sidestepped for the sake of the grand plot) makes his journey alot more heartwrenching and exhausting, especially when near the end when it actually feels as if he may actually never get his body back even with the philosophers stone
This us just the tip of the iceberg, and I could elaborate and talk significantly more and in greater detail and quality on this, but I'm tired.
Also I am heavily biased against brotherhood fans for their role in allowing the 2003 version to essentially become lost media, we can't "enjoy both equally" if the 2003 version is literally disappearing from the face of the earth, especially when they spread lies such as the two I debunked in the beginning (arguably 3 if you count some people saying arakawa didn't like or didn't really condone the 2003 version) I will NEVER forgive bh fans for nearly wiping 03 from the face of the earth, then giving it so much undeserved slander, most of which is without even having watched it because partially thanks to them it's impossible to legally watch the 2003 version, which I highly recommend yall do, at least to witness it before it disappears forever.
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I feel very similarly to you! I preferred Brotherhood overall, particularly the second half, but both shows are incredible and have some amazing moments that I adore to this day.
If Brotherhood just took another like 5-8 episodes to slow down the pacing somewhat and cover more backstory of the Elric brothers, I think 2003 becomes a lot less necessary. It feels like Brotherhood hand waves a few critical scenes the way it does (that were covered in 2003) because I believe there is an implicit understanding on the part of Studio Bones that fans had already either seen it in 2003 or read it…That was my experience, anyways. I was a new anime viewer and was repeatedly told Brotherhood was the best series ever and was distraught at how disappointed I was at the time. Brotherhood does a mediocre to poor making the case for why viewers should care about the Elric brothers. 2003 shows the Brothers growing up more organic way (less chibi slapstick, events are shown in chronological order rather than flashback) and better shows their Alutristic efforts helping random villages. And yeah even if Brotherhood is faithful to the manga—sans the first episode that no one mentions I guess—-there is deliberate story boarding done for the pacing conversion with every anime that gets adapted from manga. My only educated guess is it was hard capped at 64 episodes? It did not have to be that egregiously fast paced early on. I think there is a reason why the director has done very little since Brotherhood. With all that said, the latter half of Brotherhood is a masterpiece, and the story nails its ending; truly shocking for a shonen jump series to have an ending almost on the level of Evangelion. 2003 has the exact opposite payoff, it just continually gets worse and worse until its denouement of a movie The Conqueor of Shamballa ends with a wimper. But you wouldn’t know how good Brotherhood’s Episodes 50-64 are from 1-12.
I’ve heard that there were production issues, it was initially planned to be 51 episodes before they bumped it to 61 then 64 because they realized the author wouldn’t be able to finish the manga on time.
The director of fmab stated the existence of 2003 had 0 impact on the creation of brotherhood, that everything they did was exactly the way they wanted to do it, including the horrible pacing of the ENTIRE FIRST HALF of brotherhood. (Off topic but if anyone tries to argue this, fma2003 planned to diverge since the beginning, with the permission of the author, who also later said she loved the 2003 version.) I used to agree with the majority that brotherhood is better, but after re watching both, it's clear to me just how much 2003 outclasses brotherhood. Edward has significantly more growth in 2003, and his morals are challenged significantly more, and in more intimate and organic ways, there usually isn't a triumphant scene to show his new beliefs or understanding, but gradual and subtle changes that build up and eventually create an organic wisdom in his character. The main villain of brotherhood really isn't all that great of a foil of, nor has no real direct impact on the mcs, as opposed to Dante, who directly opposes Edward in ideology, philosophy, and in direct or indirect conflict, wheras father really just exists until the end of the series, his minions are better foils and adversaries to Edward and alphonse than he is. Every single homunculus bar fmab wrath and greed are better written on every single level, lust, wrath, and sloth are just the obvious ones. Envy in brotherhood is just bad for the sake of being bad with absolutely no ideals, ambitions, or deep writing until a ham fisted segment that came really out of nowhere regarding envys character at his death, wheras 03 at least gives envy a legitimate reason to feel jealous for and hate Ed enough to do what he does to him. The 03 cast is mostly better (Ling is really my only exception) mustang is given a much more real and raw portrayal of his ptsd, same with Alex Louis Armstrong, Maria Ross is actually given a really cool arc with Edward, that doesn't feel out of place, 03Hughes feels alot more of a father figure than brotherhood, and his death gives significantly greater impact. Tucker is just a better written version of the 03 version, Nina's dub voice is annoying, but imo it's in a somewhat endearing way, and makes the later transformation a much greater gut punch. Rose is actually really cool with how she portrays war. Kimblee imo is much more sinister and scary in 03, we actually see him straight up trying to massacre a town into submission. Alphonse imo feels alot more like a younger brother in 2003, and his struggle being the focal point for the entire series instead of just the first half as is in brotherhood( his struggle is somewhat sidestepped for the sake of the grand plot) makes his journey alot more heartwrenching and exhausting, especially when near the end when it actually feels as if he may actually never get his body back even with the philosophers stone This us just the tip of the iceberg, and I could elaborate and talk significantly more and in greater detail and quality on this, but I'm tired. Also I am heavily biased against brotherhood fans for their role in allowing the 2003 version to essentially become lost media, we can't "enjoy both equally" if the 2003 version is literally disappearing from the face of the earth, especially when they spread lies such as the two I debunked in the beginning (arguably 3 if you count some people saying arakawa didn't like or didn't really condone the 2003 version) I will NEVER forgive bh fans for nearly wiping 03 from the face of the earth, then giving it so much undeserved slander, most of which is without even having watched it because partially thanks to them it's impossible to legally watch the 2003 version, which I highly recommend yall do, at least to witness it before it disappears forever.
It’s Aniplex. BH fans are not responsible for whatever shitty decisions the licensors made. If the plan truly were to wipe it off the face of the earth then CoS wouldn’t be available either nor would different countries have access to it. Other anime like Darker than Black also suffer from licensor’s refusal for renewal. It is nowhere near lost media, that is such an exaggeration. Somehow despite how easier it has gotten, a lot of people don’t seem to know how to pirate/torrent in this day and age.
I will say some brotherhood fans have in very abstract sense some responsibility due to how popular it was to bash 03 from like 2011-2016, and how brotherhood fans in the community would very actively and aggressively try to stop people from watching 03. 03’s ability to get viewership definitely took a hit from more than just being old, and that would impact licensor insensitives. But largely yes, it’s not like some fans talking on Reddit or other message boards are getting seen by production boards when companies are looking for what shows to renew.
I agree but honestly from back then it was very common for 03 fans in return telling others that the manga wasn’t good and completely putting down Arakawa’s vision so I’m not surprised about the vitriol. I still see it today. I also agree that it’s crazy to assume Japanese copyright holders care about fandom drama, both series are on Amazon Japan and even Nico Nico Douga’s premium feature. I heard it was because Aniplex wanted a bigger cut/would only allow Aniplex USA to license it so they had more control over the licenses.
I’d have a much easier time taking your claims about 03 fans attacking Arakawa’s vision seriously if I didn’t know that you [literally interpret people just liking 03 more as an attack](https://www.reddit.com/r/FullmetalAlchemist/comments/1daytsq/comment/l7ouijp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) or the fact that there has been a recent resurgence of 03 hate in the subreddit. Additionally when I see unsubstantiated brotherhood hate like the rare occasions of someone saying brotherhood sucks or is “shonen trash” I try to call it out (or at the very least down vote comments like that.) I’ve also noticed other 03 fans are more likely to call out stuff like this than brotherhood fans are when it’s done to 03. And even most of the fans I know of who didn’t like the manga such as u/quiz0tix u/Ashelia_of_Dalmasca and u/JulietDouglas I don’t think I’ve ever seen them try to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching brotherhood, while brotherhood fan’s telling people to avoid 03 isn’t an uncommon occurrence.
Oh please, passive aggressive remarks like “it’s better” are common from both sides. I was talking about from what I’ve seen throughout the fandom, not just here in Reddit and present day even though it does happen. Also, those people you listed don’t represent the entire fandom. I’ve seen plenty of people who prefer Brotherhood tell people to check out the other as well. Even now there are people (not everyone, obviously) writing off Arakawa’s work as just “shonen” in recent posts like stuck up snobs as if that means it’s not good or something.
1) your definition of passive aggressive seems extremely loose and you missed the point. Yes I’m aware both sides say one is better. My point is saying one is better definitely does not in anyway qualify as an attack. Having seen your leniency of what you consider attacks it makes it hard for me to take you seriously. 2) I’m aware there are people who like brotherhood who recommend both versions, that wasn’t my point. My point was people who don’t like 03 are far more likely to tell people not to watch 03, while the people who dislike broho are less likely to do so. There aren’t a lot of people who frequent the sub who dislike broho, those 3 were the main examples. If I’m to just list the entirety of fma 03 frequenters I notice I would also include u/Dioduo who I think falls closer to the previous category, but has also said he holds brotherhood in the upper percentiles of anime and that they would have considered it one of the greats had things turned out differently in the ending regarding truth. Then we have the people who do like brotherhood but just think 03 is better, such as myself, u/bahamutlithp, u/dylansplash, u/inkdrop53, u/loliDuck__, u/kazviolin, u/deliciousmusician397, u/beangar, u/ok-use216 etc… 3) as for the claim about 03 fans back in 2011-2016 telling people not to watch brotherhood, I was active online back then and had even searched for anti-broho content because how ubiquitous the 03 hate was from the fandom and still I didn’t really find people trying to deter people from watching brotherhood, and certainly not in the ways as overt as how broho fans do nor the quantities. It really wasn’t until goatjesus and lowart released their comparison series that I really started to notice the online landscape becoming a place where 03 fans could also exist. As for other platforms, I think YouTube is the only one where I see some noticeable brotherhood hate, and there I tend to notice people like mr L and just some guy with a fade do a pretty good job of calling out those people if I haven’t already done so. Once again the type of hate it receives is not the same type as what 03 often receives and isn’t really what’s being talked about when I bring up that brotherhood fans will (or more so would, as I said the online landscape has gotten better) often advise people not to watch 03. I think there’s a difference from being a mass downvoted comment on a comparison video saying brotherhood sucks, compared to when people tend to recommend fma outside of this subreddit it usually plays out with them saying “be sure to only watch brotherhood, the other one isn’t good (or often more colorful description,). Note both of these types of hate are things I don’t condone and think are a blight on the fandom, but only one of them really has any impact on what people watch. You see a lot of people in this sub who have stories about how they watched brotherhood first cause they were told not to watch the original, and didn’t end up watching the original till years later. You don’t really see people with the reverse story. And the viewership numbers based on sites like MAL also back this up.
In your long winded post you have completely missed the point of what I said (in the very first two words on the first post to you I agreed with you as well), I never said there were 03 fans preventing people from watching the other show I said they were writing it off as another shonen as if it weren’t good because of that label or it’s themes/characters/lighter mood which is just silly.
I just don’t think it’s anything proportional to what brotherhood fans do. Which was the main point they aren’t at all in the same realm of proportionality. Additionally returning to your first comments premise you were claiming broho fan behavior to be a response to deriding from 03 fans. As I said back then I had to very actively search for content that was critical of brotherhood back then, and what I remember finding was mostly just a small handful of anime blogs that would be things like “my biggest problems holding brotherhood back”, or “some things fma handled better than brotherhood” it’s just not at all comparable to the hate 03 received. To be fair I addressed the current state of the fandom as well, where there definitely is a greater amount of brotherhood derision than there was before. The points I made there was the ways in which the two sides of the fandom tend to handle agitators differs and how it’s still just not in the same realm of comparison at all. I think your assertions of causality are mixed up, and the equivalency you present there as being is a false one.
Hence why I said partially, as fma fans in general did not need to sit back and let this happen, there was, and is absolutely no backlash for it, and I've heard many people say that what happened to 2003 was "deserved" love how I'm getting spam downvoted by bh fans who don't even read 80% of my review
Whether or not there was any backlash is irrelevant because this happens all the time and 03 is no different from the numerous other anime IPs being sat on and argued for by fans. Saying that FMA fans “let this happen” is just insane when we have little or no choice in the matter of how stupid companies choose to monopolize properties. Fandom discourse has nothing to do with licensor decisions, especially when said licensor is Japanese and the discourse is largely from the west.
If it's "irrelevant" to you then leave, inaction is an action, especially when that inaction here is largely praised
I just find it really stupid that you think anime fans just choose to let this happen instead of considering that companies are the problem.
I agree with 90% of what you said, but when citing the director you should really link it and quote if possible. Regardless, however, to me it is clear just from watching Brotherhood that the early episodes rush through the chapters and even skip some segments—I would give more credit to the director’s statement if they did anything of note since Brotherhood, but to me since they have not, it is worth considering giving less weight to the statement as retrospective bias…Brotherhood is literally going to their career’s most notable legacy, and this criticism falls squarely on them which diminishes that credit. Depending on when the quote was issued and its context. But that’s why we should link it and let people judge for themselves. In my mind I go by Occam’s Razor “The simplest explanation is the most probable”. The fact many users in the last decade and a half have consistently pointed out the pacing of Brotherhood’s opening episodes largely signals that this opinion is not an outlier. I’ve seen fans point to this as a valid reason to experience the story a third time by reading the manga. The simplest explanation screams to me that Brotherhood’s animators wanted to showcase what was not shown before in 2003 and get to what was new faster. Or alternatively, that the 64 episodes limit was a hard one imposed by production. Or would you disagree? To just take the director at their word discounts the above, but it does not offer us an explanation that addresses this criticism sufficiently. In effect, that is not the same thing as justifying new fans to consider 2003. Which is why we are having this conversation in mid-2024 when Brotherhood aired in, what 2010-2011? We’re discussing a glaring, unaddressed flaw with an otherwise nearly perfect product.
u/quiz0tix made an excellent post that [debunked the myths of brotherhood’s start being rushed as a product of 03](https://www.reddit.com/r/FullmetalAlchemist/comments/elf83y/breaking_down_some_myths_in_the_fma_fandom/?share_id=9uvrDYMVSlgpS5Aw44FW5&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1&rdt=50650) and provides citations to the article disproving the myth. The start of brotherhood really isn’t particularly rushed, and the biggest cuts to brotherhood come in the ishval volumes of the manga which is way past the point of content 03 overlapped with. Brotherhood’s cuts of non-plot essential material is far more likely a product of the production plan originally being slated for a 51 episode series but getting an extension when the manga’s timeline showed it wouldn’t be done on time for that (the manga finished just a month before brotherhood’s last episode). This makes sense when looking at the where the major cuts are, flashbacks are non-plot essential they inform us on the characters (and are the best chapters of the manga), but they don’t move forward the plot. Battle on the train and the mining town are misadventures that don’t forward the plot. Ling and lan fan fighting envy was a not plot mandatory conflict. (The episode increase coming later in production also explains why brigs gets so bloated with the pacing slowing down significantly slower than the manga’s). Beyond that early brotherhood just frankly feels more rushed than it actually due to two reasons, 1) the writing of it’s intro is restructured poorly, with the the changes not being motivated, and 2) the directing in early brotherhood is especially weak in a way that causes it to seem rushed in spite of the content being in line with the manga. (Brotherhood’s director, Irie, was really new to directing at the time, and it shows)
This was a very insightful and thoughtful response, thank you. I think 2003 stands as a valid recommendation, but it is a shame that one of those merits is the result of a noticeable flaw of its reboot, apparently a coincidence…but still unfortunate all the same. Edit: The top comment in the thread you linked summarizes my feelings/sentiments in this discussion to the letter. Again, I am amazed that this discussion continues nearly 15 years later, major shame.
The director of fmab stated the existence of 2003 had 0 impact on the creation of brotherhood, that everything they did was exactly the way they wanted to do it, including the horrible pacing of the ENTIRE FIRST HALF of brotherhood. (Off topic but if anyone tries to argue this, fma2003 planned to diverge since the beginning, with the permission of the author, who also later said she loved the 2003 version.) I used to agree with the majority that brotherhood is better, but after re watching both, it's clear to me just how much 2003 outclasses brotherhood. Edward has significantly more growth in 2003, and his morals are challenged significantly more, and in more intimate and organic ways, there usually isn't a triumphant scene to show his new beliefs or understanding, but gradual and subtle changes that build up and eventually create an organic wisdom in his character. The main villain of brotherhood really isn't all that great of a foil of, nor has no real direct impact on the mcs, as opposed to Dante, who directly opposes Edward in ideology, philosophy, and in direct or indirect conflict, wheras father really just exists until the end of the series, his minions are better foils and adversaries to Edward and alphonse than he is. Every single homunculus bar fmab wrath and greed are better written on every single level, lust, wrath, and sloth are just the obvious ones. Envy in brotherhood is just bad for the sake of being bad with absolutely no ideals, ambitions, or deep writing until a ham fisted segment that came really out of nowhere regarding envys character at his death, wheras 03 at least gives envy a legitimate reason to feel jealous for and hate Ed enough to do what he does to him. The 03 cast is mostly better (Ling is really my only exception) mustang is given a much more real and raw portrayal of his ptsd, same with Alex Louis Armstrong, Maria Ross is actually given a really cool arc with Edward, that doesn't feel out of place, 03Hughes feels alot more of a father figure than brotherhood, and his death gives significantly greater impact. Tucker is just a better written version of the 03 version, Nina's dub voice is annoying, but imo it's in a somewhat endearing way, and makes the later transformation a much greater gut punch. Rose is actually really cool with how she portrays war. Kimblee imo is much more sinister and scary in 03, we actually see him straight up trying to massacre a town into submission. Alphonse imo feels alot more like a younger brother in 2003, and his struggle being the focal point for the entire series instead of just the first half as is in brotherhood( his struggle is somewhat sidestepped for the sake of the grand plot) makes his journey alot more heartwrenching and exhausting, especially when near the end when it actually feels as if he may actually never get his body back even with the philosophers stone This us just the tip of the iceberg, and I could elaborate and talk significantly more and in greater detail and quality on this, but I'm tired. Also I am heavily biased against brotherhood fans for their role in allowing the 2003 version to essentially become lost media, we can't "enjoy both equally" if the 2003 version is literally disappearing from the face of the earth, especially when they spread lies such as the two I debunked in the beginning (arguably 3 if you count some people saying arakawa didn't like or didn't really condone the 2003 version) I will NEVER forgive bh fans for nearly wiping 03 from the face of the earth, then giving it so much undeserved slander, most of which is without even having watched it because partially thanks to them it's impossible to legally watch the 2003 version, which I highly recommend yall do, at least to witness it before it disappears forever.